Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 18 - Evidence - Meeting of April 22, 2013
OTTAWA, Monday, April 22, 2013
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 5 p.m. to continue its study on CBC/Radio- Canada's obligations under the Official Languages Act and some aspects of the Broadcasting Act.
Senator Maria Chaput (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Honourable senators, welcome to this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. I am Senator Maria Chaput, from Manitoba, chair of the committee.
Before introducing the witnesses appearing today, I would invite the committee members to introduce themselves, starting on my left.
Senator McIntyre: Senator Paul McIntyre from New Brunswick.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Senator Suzanne Fortin-Duplessis, Quebec City.
Senator Boisvenu: Senator Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu, Quebec City, replacing Senator Andrée Champagne.
Senator Mockler: Senator Percy Mockler from New Brunswick.
Senator Dawson: Senator Dennis Dawson, from Quebec City, replacing Senator Fernand Robichaud from New Brunswick.
Senator Tardif: Senator Claudette Tardif from Alberta.
The Chair: The committee is continuing its study on CBC/Radio-Canada's obligations under the Official Languages Act and some aspects of the Broadcasting Act.
As part of this study, the committee has heard so far from more than 30 witnesses. That includes officials from CBC/Radio-Canada and the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, the Commissioner of Official Languages, the Minister of Canadian Heritage and Official Languages, researchers and anglophone and francophone organizations.
Several witnesses pointed out that young people, who represent the future, should be a major focus of CBC/Radio-Canada's strategies. The committee therefore took the initiative to invite youth representatives to come and testify before it so that we can gain insights into how young Canadians perceive CBC/Radio-Canada's linguistic obligations.
We are very pleased to have a third group of young people here today. I want to welcome three young francophones from the province of Quebec: Marc-André Provost, Pier-Luc Laurin and Michaël Séguin. On behalf of the committee members, I would like to thank the witnesses for taking the time to present their viewpoint as part of our study and to answer our questions.
The committee has asked the witnesses to make a presentation of no more than seven minutes each, and senators will follow with questions. I invite Mr. Provost to take the floor and the other two witnesses will follow.
Marc-André Provost, as an individual: Thank you, Madam Chair. First, I would like to thank the senators for welcoming us here today. It is a pleasure to see that you are listening to Canadian youth and we are pleased to be here as spokespersons for young Quebecers.
Société Radio-Canada has been a decisive factor in the development of Canada's francophones. It was the only French-language mass media organization in North America for many years, a fact that guaranteed it extraordinary audience ratings and an incredible presence in every Canadian home.
Radio-Canada was central to the production of Quebec and French-Canadian television programs. Its presence in the lives of many Canadians is associated with great moments in history because it allowed all of us to experience those moments, in French, comfortably seated in our living rooms.
I am a faithful Radio-Canada radio listener. The Ottawa station is what I listen to since I live in the Outaouais region. I prefer Radio-Canada to other radio stations because it broadcasts local and national news programs in a professional manner.
However, regional news programs are still the station's strength. Although young people are more interested in news about what happens where they live, in their cities, it would be false to say that international news is of no interest to them. A fair balance has to be struck between the two.
Every regional network provides francophones with news about their communities, in their first language, and ensures the survival of those communities. French-language services are essential. It is important to have Radio- Canada's French-language network in case of emergency and to facilitate communication with francophone citizens.
In television, the past few years have been hard on Radio-Canada, and CBC/Radio-Canada, particularly the CBC, has had to face considerable competition from many American networks. In my opinion, the greatest loss for Radio- Canada television's French-language network is still La Soirée du hockey. That program was a tradition for Montreal Canadiens fans and other Canadian teams. It enjoyed incredible ratings for decades and gave everyone free access to national games on our national network.
Radio-Canada sports coverage has been in difficulty since then. No matches of the Impact, the Canadiens or the Alouettes are available on the national television network, whereas the CBC still broadcasts Hockey Night in Canada and gives anglophones access to many NHL matches.
The French-language network has also lost its high ratings in many evening time slots to its competition, particularly TVA, even though such major hits as Tout le monde en parle help it compete for those ratings.
What must enable Radio-Canada to stand out, what has helped establish its name, is the production of local television series involving local actors and its focus on quality.
As for CBC/Radio-Canada's Internet presence, among the broad range of services offered, TOU.TV has given consumers on-demand access to programs on any screen they choose. Broadcast times, which are often a handicap to higher ratings for many programs, are no longer a problem. Since it has been producing Web content, however, CBC/ Radio-Canada has faced competition from networks around the world. As a result, it is local production and the broadcasting of Canadian cultural products over the Internet that will enable CBC/Radio-Canada to promote Canadian culture internationally. TOU.TV is thus an international window on Canadian culture.
I must admit I am not a big fan of Espace musique, which competes with international giants that let people listen to the songs they want when and where they want. It is an aggressive market. To vie with its competitors, CBC/Radio- Canada would do well to broadcast what is being done in Canadian communities.
CBC/Radio-Canada should be more concerned with the Canadian youth market, particularly on television and Internet platforms. When I was young — even though I still am young — Radio-Canada offered a range of stimulating youth programs directly targeting the youth of my generation because they were produced by people who were experiencing the Canadian reality. That is the way to forge a people's identity. An attachment and sense of belonging are established by showing what our own people are capable of doing, listening to the music of our artists, seeing the exploits of our athletes, the discoveries of our researchers, the decisions of our politicians and the reality of our citizens.
Radio-Canada and the CBC must remain independent of political authority and maintain the discipline they have always shown, while promoting homegrown productions. Thank you.
Pier-Luc Laurin, as an individual: Good afternoon, senators. I am pleased to be attending this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages to present my viewpoint on Radio-Canada.
My name is Pier-Luc Laurin, and I am enrolled in Quebec and political studies at the University of Montreal. I am proud to represent Canadian youth, more particularly the young of my region, Lanaudière.
To provide a brief overview of my part of the country, Lanaudière is a region with a very large francophone majority. However, the region's linguistic profile includes an anglophone community and an increasingly obvious linguistic duality in the southern part of the region near Montreal.
One of the questions we were asked to consider is the place that Radio-Canada occupies in our lives. I would say it is a real presence. Of the many platforms on offer, I use the mobile application or the Web tool every day to follow news broadcasts and, more specifically, international news. I also go to Radio-Canada's Facebook page, which, once again, is an excellent news aggregator.
I use the TOU.TV platform quite regularly to watch various entertainment programs. Unlike the others, I watch little Radio-Canada television and do not listen to radio. I mainly use Radio-Canada to get everyday information and for certain programs such as Infoman and Et Dieu créa... Laflaque, which are entertaining but also highly educational. I also access Radio-Canada's website for its archives, particularly for academic information.
The senators also wanted to know whether we believe that Radio-Canada has a particular role to play with Canadian youth. To that question, I would answer, absolutely. First of all, I think Radio-Canada is an important entertainment, news and archival tool, but it is first and foremost a civic education tool.
Its high degree of financial, intellectual, physical and temporal accessibility makes it possible for all young people to access its various platforms.
Second, to use a more regionalist argument, regional development requires citizen involvement. Local and regional news and the decentralization of news to the regions would be important in creating greater openness for young people and greater learning opportunities.
Radio-Canada plays and should play a role in supporting young citizens in learning about their power as citizens. Access to information and the knowledge it affords are the gateway to a sense of competence and critical thinking. We do not absolutely need to know in order to clearly understand who we are locally, but we absolutely do need to know and clearly understand who we are locally and regionally, our culture, language, origins, economic markets, rights and values, so that we can then take control of our future and take part in the decisions involved in, and the development of, our living environment.
To be able to take part in decision-making and to be the principal players in their own destiny, young people need to know their past, their roots, but also their present and that of the world they live in. Radio-Canada is already contributing to that. For example, the Vote Compass for the May 2011 election was a very good tool. Tools such as that are beneficial and help develop an interest in politics. Entertainment also plays a major and powerful role. Content has a greater influence than you think in educating people about attitudes.
The thinking encouraged by various programs such as 19-2 helps in understanding certain realities that assist in forming different, informed views on the issues of our society.
The relationship between local and international is also very important. Radio-Canada is one of the rare media organizations in Quebec that offer such broad, high-quality international coverage. In the current situation of globalization and with young people increasingly taking an interest in international issues, this international coverage is fundamentally important. Young people travel widely, and new media level differences and allow communities to develop based on common interests rather than merely the concept of space.
We need to know where we come from but also about the world we live in, and we must do that in accordance with principles and values. That requires education and knowledge.
Young people with ideas and opinions can discuss everything in a mutually respectful manner. These are informed young people, confident in their skills, who have local roots, but are also open to the world and interested in others. Ultimately, they want to discover in order to understand, and to understand in order to love.
We must also watch out for centralization, which is pervasive and leaves the regions behind. For example, Lanaudière is being "Montrealized" to a very high degree. Montreal is the centre of interest in the daily newspapers, television and radio, and regional issues are often forgotten.
Lastly, the importance of linguistic and cultural duality for Quebec youth is unique in the world and always a concern. How can Radio-Canada contribute to the openness of cultures and help transmit that openness? That is a very important question and one that must be considered.
Openness between English and French Canada is undeniably a major issue because, to my knowledge, CBC is not on the radar screen of young Quebecers, and English Canadian culture is not very accessible through our French- language media. That is my perception of the role Radio-Canada should play. Thank you.
Michaël Séguin, as an individual: Good afternoon. Thank you very much for welcoming me to your committee. It feels a bit different to come to the Senate. It is interesting to be able to meet you, to speak with you and to see what goes on in this venerable institution in order to share my viewpoint as an ordinary citizen. This has been a big surprise for me. I find it unusual and interesting.
I am a doctoral candidate in sociology and a lecturer at the University of Montreal, but I am not speaking this evening as a sociologist because I have not done any research into the sociology of the media and consequently am not qualified to discuss it. I am here instead as a citizen, a young person, who wants to share with you the way I use the media, more particularly Radio-Canada.
In accordance with what the clerk has given me, I am going to discuss my overall relationship with Radio-Canada, then tell you about how I use it and, lastly, about the role it should play in our society.
In my relationship with it, Radio-Canada is really an everyday companion. It is part of my lifestyle; whether I am at home or in the car, I turn on the radio in the morning and listen to Radio-Canada news. It is my first source of information if I want to know what is going on in Quebec, in Canada and around the world. If an important event occurs, whether it be a bombing in Boston or a police raid on the campus of the University of Montreal, as happened during the student strike last year, I turn to Radio-Canada, on the radio or the Internet, to see what is happening.
I particularly like to tune in Radio-Canada from time to time to see what is playing, what people are talking about, and to come across surprises, a cooking program, a sports program or something else. The result is an interesting and enriching cultural openness. To conclude on my relationship to Radio-Canada, I would say that it is ultimately my main link to Canada. To a large degree, it is what makes me feel Canadian or what makes me feel that I can be informed about what is going on elsewhere in Canada. So, as I was saying, I mainly use it to keep up to date on current events and to stay informed on the various analyses of current sociopolitical issues.
I mainly listen to radio, and sometimes watch television, things like C'est bien meilleur le matin, Désautels, Médium Large, or the comedy program À la semaine prochaine on weekends. I very much enjoy the TOU.TV platform and access it from time to time. I do not watch a lot of television, but colleagues often ask me whether I have seen a program and tell me that what happened last week was interesting. So I can go back, download it and watch it online.
One of the things I particularly appreciate about Radio-Canada, and that make a big difference relative to other broadcasters available in the Greater Montreal Area, is that it is a network that gives me generally credible information with a minimum of value judgments and that goes beyond general news on matters such as car accidents, fires and thefts committed here and there. I am not saying it is not important to know what happens where you live, but I think that Radio-Canada goes beyond minor news items in its coverage. Another point I appreciate is that, given the credibility of Radio-Canada's news, I can rely on it for personal and professional purposes.
For example, this term I am giving an introductory sociology course. I have included Radio-Canada news reports in my course on various occasions so that I can conduct case studies. That has enabled the students to refer to current events, to actual events that take place, in order to apply sociological theories.
Lastly, as regards CBC/Radio-Canada's role with youth, whether on radio, the Internet or television, I see three major roles that Radio-Canada should play. The first concerns the importance of raising national awareness; the second is to ensure active citizen involvement; and the third is to increase awareness of the situation of various ethnic and linguistic minorities in our country.
With regard to its first role, as the Broadcasting Act provides, CBC/Radio-Canada has a fundamental role to play in creating and sharing a Canadian national identity. I come from Rigaud, in the Vaudreuil-Soulanges region, west of Montreal. It is particularly in the more ethnolinguistically homogenous areas, as in my region, that Radio-Canada has an extremely important role to play in making us more aware of what goes on outside Montreal and Quebec and elsewhere in Canada.
As my colleagues have said, and as you have heard many times, CBC/Radio-Canada is very much focused on Montreal, at least on its francophone side. Something extremely significant clearly has to be done so that we do not just hear about provincial elections in other provinces or pipelines being built here and there. Something more should be developed.
Radio-Canada's second important role is to support citizens in performing their public duties. Democracy does not mean just voting every four or five years. It requires citizens to monitor their elected representatives actively. The media, and Radio-Canada in particular, play this fundamental role, which is both to ensure that politicians are accountable and to enhance public scrutiny. This is something they do quite well in covering parliamentary debates and the various scandals that break out in everyday life.
What they do a little less, and what is important and should be developed to a far greater degree, is help citizens overcome political apathy and get over the feeling that politics is so distant that they can do nothing about it. It seems to me that Radio-Canada has a very important role to play to mobilize citizens and help us overcome the image of Parliament as a kind of fortress to which only a small elite can gain access. On the contrary, citizens have a role to play, whether it be voting, taking to the streets or writing petitions.
I agree with my colleague that it was a very good idea to provide citizens with the Vote Compass, which was an actual tool to help them make their electoral decisions.
Similarly, the increasingly widespread use of social media plays a very important role because it helps overcome the relationship based on a top-down approach to the spread of information and develops more of a bottom-up approach whereby people can interact with the broadcaster and offer their opinions.
Radio-Canada's final and very important role is to increase public awareness of the reality of minority groups. By "minorities," I mean both francophone communities outside Quebec and anglophone communities in Quebec, the situation of Aboriginal nations and that of immigrants across the country. In my opinion, Radio-Canada can help make Canada a country where we can give many cultures a place by making those cultures less strange and less threatening for the average citizen, who lives in a somewhat homogenous environment.
It is obviously not up to Radio-Canada alone to combat racism in Canada, but it appears that Radio-Canada has an important role to play in that regard since, through television, radio and even the Internet, it helps define what is normal and acceptable in our country. If most commentators and columnists are white, that leads people to view normal as white. If media coverage of Aboriginal people always focuses on miserable aspects of their situation, that tends to paint a miserable picture of Aboriginal people. Consequently, Radio-Canada has a very important role to play in helping us to live together, which is our situation as a bilingual and multicultural country.
In conclusion, Radio-Canada plays a fundamental and personal role in my life as a Canadian citizen and seems to me to be a fundamentally important organization in ensuring the development of a national awareness among citizens, in leading them to take an active part in political debate and, lastly, in making them more aware of the ethnolinguistic differences in our country.
The Chair: Thank you very much, gentlemen. We will hear first from Senator Fortin-Duplessis.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. It was very interesting to hear what you had to say. Several speakers whom we have heard during the proceedings of this committee feel that Radio-Canada, as the national broadcaster, has the ability to bring together the minority communities in all provinces of Canada but does not always do so as it should and that it also has the ability to help create a greater sense of belonging to the Canadian francophonie.
Mr. Séguin, you presented your viewpoint at length and you could share it further. All three of you mentioned that international news was very important for you, but are you interested in news about events that take place in other Canadian provinces?
Mr. Provost: Canadian national news obviously concerns issues that are interesting to young people. We like to know what is going on in our country. When we talk about international issues, our young people are recognized as being open to the world. We want to know what is happening on this continent and in the world as a whole. That is true as well for local news; whether it is news from New Brunswick or from Alberta, it is important to us. If the news is appropriate and it is international, I do not see why international news should be cut in order to meet Canadian news content requirements. That is the way I view the matter.
Mr. Laurin: I see this as a matter of habit. In fact, I do not believe we are used to seeing or hearing Canadian national news about what is going on elsewhere or about francophone minorities. We are more used to news from our province and international news. I think that is due to this lack of other news, the fact that we are less interested in it and that we are less inclined to wonder what goes on elsewhere. That is it.
Mr. Séguin: I think that is a deficiency that should be corrected. The network is already there. We have to deal with the two languages, but the news is covered right across the country. So how do you go about facilitating the exchange of information? I do not know how Radio-Canada is organized at all, but how could you facilitate the exchange of information so as to stop considering the various problems that are experienced in isolation? For example, there are no doubt problems with emergency rooms right across the country. Some provinces must be more efficient than others.
I would be interested in hearing more about what goes on elsewhere in Canada. That in fact is not done in the news broadcasts that I listen to and watch most. I agree in a way that this is something that is not done right now. On the one hand, it is true that the Quebec media tend to be focused on Quebec, but, on the other hand, the programming that is offered to us does not open us up very much to the rest of the country. So there is a vicious circle that must be broken.
But what do you think about this? May I reverse the roles and ask that?
The Chair: Usually the senators ask the questions.
Mr. Séguin: Pardon me.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Yes, I can nevertheless answer him, Madam Chair, because I also think like the witnesses we have previously heard from, who thought they were so poorly informed about what was going on elsewhere. When Alison Redford had problems selling her oil, she tried selling it in the United States, moving it through the north, and that did not work. This is something very important because Alberta has always been Canada's cash cow, and there they could not sell their oil. What is going on? We do not hear about that, but it is really important. We do not hear enough about what goes on in the other provinces, but it is important. In Montreal, you know that when you listen to Radio-Canada, and, as you said earlier, we mainly get news from Montreal.
I would like you to paint me a picture of the media you consult. My last question will be whether you have any examples of partnerships between CBC/Radio-Canada and the youth organizations you know.
Mr. Provost: I personally have no knowledge of CBC/Radio-Canada partnerships with youth organizations. As for the news we receive from here and other provinces, we certainly do feel a little less concerned because it is more about provincial than federal issues. Since we have two environment departments, for example, we often hear about what is very local, about the provincial department. It is hard for us to access news about issues outside Quebec because our local issues take up a lot of space in the media.
Mr. Laurin: I use Radio-Canada particularly with social media, but I also use the mobile Web application. It is not just for news. When I want to be informed, I go to Radio-Canada. I use it quite regularly, but via radio or television. Television is more for series.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: You watch television series in your leisure time?
Mr. Laurin: That is correct. I watch television for entertainment. Apart from that, Radio-Canada is very useful for news, particularly international news. I also have no knowledge of any relations between youth organizations and CBC/Radio-Canada, but that is a good suggestion.
Senator Dawson: As I said at the outset, I am not a permanent member of the committee, although I chair another Senate committee, the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications, which, over the next few weeks, will be starting on another Radio-Canada component that you have talked about, Radio Canada International.
Radio Canada International has a very different purpose from what you are talking about, which is to broadcast Canada to the world and to provide certain countries with a neutral source of information but from a Canadian viewpoint. Unfortunately, one of the reasons why it will be studied is that budget cuts are planned at Radio Canada International, and part of what Radio-Canada used to do, projecting Canada's image abroad, appears to have been cut back. I would invite you to come and follow the debates of the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications.
I will invite Radio-Canada to do so as well because, honestly, if you watch Radio-Canada's coverage of the Senate of Canada in recent years, apart from the bad news, when there is a problem in the Senate, it rarely covers the launch of a report. Last week, we issued our report on a study we conducted on the air transport sector, an important study. I have seen no one from Radio-Canada cover that subject because this is a Senate report and it does not interest them. I am not saying that just to criticize it in my capacity as a senator, but there are a lot of problems at Radio-Canada and we will have occasion to examine a component of it with Radio Canada International.
You mentioned the "Montreal-centric" nature of Radio-Canada. My colleague Senator De Bané could tell you more about that — and I do not know whether the expression comes from his report — but it is even called "Radio- Plateau." That is not just Montreal; it is a part of Montreal. It is not Montreal's West Island or Montreal's east end, or Rigaud, unfortunately for you. It is really Montreal as seen by a somewhat "Plateau-centric" intellectual class.
In any case, I invite you to follow our study on Radio Canada International.
With regard to youth, I appreciate your comments on cooperation because there was a time when Radio-Canada's youth programs were central to its effort to educate young Quebecers and French Canadians. We sense that there may be a weakness in that area. I do not know whether you have any comments to make on recent programs. Perhaps competition from the Internet is also making life more difficult for Radio-Canada when it comes to reaching young people.
Do you have any recommendations? Among the recommendations the committee will have to make, do you think we should suggest considering whether we can create an issue table involving CBC, Radio-Canada and Canadian youth organizations to determine whether Radio-Canada is missing a clientele that, like you, Pier-Luc, watches them only on their iPad or computer? Should Radio-Canada perhaps develop a cooperative arrangement with you in order to do that?
In recent weeks, we have heard from many witnesses who could be seated around the same table. Do you have any comments on that point?
Mr. Laurin: What comes to mind, and I spoke about this with my colleagues with regard to the Internet, is that youth organizations and Radio-Canada could discuss opening up to each other, which we have often spoken about. For news about the rest of Canada, there could be an English-language TOU.TV. I do not know whether that is already in existence, but I think it would be a good suggestion in order to provide access to series from English Canada. Otherwise, yes, there has to be a partnership with youth. You have to take an interest in what youth need. I think Radio-Canada has always shown its educational side, and I think it is very important to retain that, compared to other measures.
Senator Dawson: In closing, and once again I do not know whether I am referring to what I may have seen in Senator De Bané's report, but we have two Radio-Canadas. There is the CBC and Radio-Canada. One is controlled in Toronto by a group from Toronto who have Toronto ideas about things; and there is Radio-Canada in Montreal. There was a time when CBC/Radio-Canada in Ottawa had a kind of headquarters, where decisions were made addressing the interests of both institutions. The two organizations increasingly live separately. It is all well and good for them to have a joint board of directors, but the situation often arises in which English Canadian board members do not speak French, and those from French Canada do not speak English. These are two worlds that do not mix.
There was one chairman, whom I will not name, who was asked one day what he thought of the comedy program La petite vie, which was watched by three and a half million viewers on Fridays. You are too young to remember that. Three and a half million people watched La petite vie, and the chairman of Radio-Canada did not know what we were talking about. More people watched La petite vie than the 10 most watched programs in Canada, except for Hockey Night in Canada. I think that is a problem.
The reality is that CBC/Radio-Canada is two entities. We have to acknowledge that fact. Those two entities should sit down with young people to determine what programs may appeal to them.
The Chair: Mr. Séguin and Mr. Provost, did you want to respond to Senator Dawson?
Mr. Provost: As regards youth programs today, what is hard for Radio-Canada is that they are facing strong competition from specialty channels. When I was young, we did not have cartoon channels. We had Radio-Canada, which broadcast children's programs very early on Saturday mornings. That was virtually the only time when we had programs for young people. Today, young people have channels like Teletoon and others available to them, channels specializing in children's content. I think that clientele is hard to target because they are already used to and faithful to those stations. A lot of work has to be done.
In addition, as I said in my presentation, I think the success of that depends on recordings of local, practically regional programs. Ottawa's Radio-Canada station could do something for the Ottawa-Gatineau region. Montreal is another reality with which I am less familiar.
I think the idea is to be local and to focus on children's present. I think that is the key you need to find.
Mr. Séguin: I ultimately do not see a lot of youth content on Radio-Canada, particularly if we are talking about young children. To pick up on what Senator Dawson said and the idea that there are two Radio-Canadas, one thing I sense, with regard to a "Plateau-centric" Radio-Canada, is that it is ultimately focused more on the French community than the rest of Canada. There is definitely something that should be developed. Not that it is not interesting to know what the news and the current books are in Switzerland, France and Belgium, but things are happening elsewhere in Canada. We do not hear about that and that is unfortunate.
Senator Poirier: Thank you for being here and thank you for your presentations. In recent weeks, we have heard from various youth groups from different regions of Canada. Many of the things they have told us are consistent with what you said. So the facts you describe to us definitely correspond to a reality that young people are facing today.
In addition, Radio-Canada mentioned at the last CRTC hearings that it intended to concentrate its youth content on the Internet rather than on television. However, they have since changed their mind in response to demands by various stakeholders.
What do you think would be the best way to encourage young people to come back or to remain loyal to Radio- Canada rather than go elsewhere?
Mr. Provost: As I said earlier, I am thinking of local productions. I think that, by showing content made by Canadians for Canadians, they will be able to compete with what is happening on the Internet, where you mainly find content targeting Americans and the European francophone community. I think that local Canadian content could be popular with that audience.
Senator Poirier: That leads me to another question. Do you think that regional networks such as TVA and Télé- Québec meet young people's needs more than Radio-Canada? Are people turning more to community radio stations?
Mr. Provost: For local news, yes. The national networks give us news in the evening, when, very often, they only talk about Montreal, as we said earlier. I will think about that a little more because your question is a very good one.
Mr. Séguin: I would like to tell you a story. I think there is a social class issue at Radio-Canada. My parents are farmers. I have been back in my parents' home for a year. At home, we fight over the television. When my parents are away, I watch Radio-Canada television. When they come back, they tune in TVA or VRAK-TV. The same thing happens in the car. We alternate between 95.1 for Radio-Canada and CKOI at 96.9.
For an entire generation, indeed a population increasingly interested in reality TV, which at times resembles gossip TV, the intellectual side of Radio-Canada is of no interest. I do not know how Radio-Canada could reach a larger clientele without diluting its content. People with more education or broader political and cultural interests enjoy it as well. I see that as an issue about how to reach an audience and to interest people while offering more refined content. This is a divisive issue for which I have no response.
Senator Poirier: Some groups told us, particularly in the minority regions, that they are inclined to turn to the English-language media since Radio-Canada does not necessarily meet their needs. Have you observed that same phenomenon among young people?
Mr. Provost: I have observed that the phenomenon is more widespread in the Outaouais than in Montreal. Young people who live near Ottawa have better knowledge of both official languages and find it easier to switch from one language to the other when they watch television.
I would like to go back to a question that you asked me earlier about local television that I wanted to think about at greater length. I think that Télé-Québec will never be able to compete with Radio-Canada with the funding provided by the provincial government. That network will never be able to acquire content that is as good given the way it is currently managed.
TVA, being a private television network, focuses more on ratings than the content of its programs. Radio-Canada distinguishes itself by its credibility. It is a more serious television network compared to what can be seen on the other networks. Radio-Canada should retain this characteristic and keep its identity, or else we will be sharing ratings that are not really ours.
Mr. Laurin: You took the words out of my mouth. That is exactly how I wanted to answer your question on the quality of the news at Radio-Canada and its educational nature compared to Télé-Québec, TVA and the V channel.
What I like about Radio-Canada is its educational character and the fact that it represents many regions. Its programs are not reality TV. The material is tangible and we can learn things. What I also like about Radio-Canada is, for example, the series filmed in the regions where people can identify with them. I believe that aspect can appeal to young people. That is particularly the case when a young person from northern Lanaudière, for example, sees that his city is being filmed in a series that becomes very popular, with popular actors, and where local inhabitants can sometimes appear as extras. Productions have been filmed near my home and around me. It is interesting to see your environment on television. That is what I think is good about Radio-Canada, unlike other networks.
This aspect, which affects people, can make them listen to and watch Radio-Canada without compromising the quality of news or of Radio-Canada.
Senator Poirier: I have one final question. If you are unable to answer it immediately, you could send your response to the committee.
Our study is coming to an end, and we will soon have to prepare a report. As young people, would you have any suggestions you would like to include in the recommendations in our report? If so, I invite you to share them with us today. You mentioned some in your speeches. So I invite you to send your suggestions to the committee so that they can be considered along with the others we have received from the other youth groups.
Senator McIntyre: Thank you for your presentations, gentlemen. We often hear that young people listen to the radio either little or not at all and that they are watching less TV, preferring instead to use the Internet, social media and new electronic platforms. If Radio-Canada wants to have a future, it must turn more toward the new electronic platforms.
Do you think that Radio-Canada radio and television have a future with young people? Is that viewpoint shared by the majority of francophones across Canada?
Mr. Laurin: Yes, I think there is a future for radio and television. Once again, we have good quality radio and television. I do not listen to radio and therefore cannot offer an opinion on the subject. Television, however, is the first thing I watch. So I think it is relevant.
It is important to work on social media and the Internet even more in order to compete.
Coming back once again to the tools we have for national events such as elections, I do not know whether it was Radio-Canada, but I remember one tool in particular called "Gérer sa ville." Those kinds of tools on the Internet are great and can be used.
Television still has a future among us French Canadians.
Mr. Provost: I think radio and television still have their place. People still listen to radio at work, and that is a need.
I have visited the offices of government departments. However, some companies play music that is broadcast on the radio in their offices, which enables people to hear what is going on here.
As for radio or television platforms, my answer is, yes, electronic platforms are a way to ensure that Radio-Canada television is accessible on applications. The same is true for radio. The idea is to mix it all up by interconnecting it. For example, everything should be on the same site, on TOU.TV or Espace Musique. That would be much easier for viewers and listeners. TV and radio platforms must take their place via electronic platforms. I think this must be a whole that hangs together.
Mr. Séguin: I would like to add to the comments made by my colleagues, who have said this very well. It is easy to turn on the TV and to listen to the radio. It takes a certain amount of will to go onto the Internet. You gradually build up your menu, and you have to want to build it. However, if I am cleaning my house and Radio-Canada is offering content that I am already interested in, I turn on the TV and take a look at it, and I can do a lot of other things at the same time. The same is true of radio.
The Internet and everything interactive via social media must be developed further. However, that will not prevent conventional forms from continuing. A few years ago, people started wondering whether lecture courses would disappear from the universities as a result of the Internet. However, they did not disappear. The media have transformed how we teach. Today we are trying to be more interactive. However, there are still amphitheatres where lectures are given. I would say the same thing is true of television.
Senator McIntyre: Young Canadians generally watch a lot of sports events, hockey, football, soccer, tennis and so on. I can understand why you are more attracted by Canada's French network than the CBC English network for a sports event.
What is the factor that explains why you are attracted to, or why you distance yourself from, those two networks?
Mr. Provost: It is language.
Mr. Laurin: The same thing.
Senator McIntyre: And if the sports event is not available in French, do you tune in the English network?
Mr. Laurin: Exactly. Since hockey is our national sport, we watched it on RDS for a long time without there being any French-language competitors, as a result of which RDS became our main sports network. I do not even know of any other French-language sports TV network in Quebec. That may be one of the reasons.
Mr. Séguin: I am not athletic, but I tried to watch CBC for a while. I am bilingual, but I felt it did not click culturally. I also felt that Toronto's concerns did not appeal to me and quite quickly went back to watching the Plateau culture, which is more like my own.
Senator McIntyre: I personally never miss a Canadiens match on RDS.
Senator De Bané: I have listened to your thoughts and analyses with great interest. The question that has haunted me for years is why entire generations of Quebecers have been completely disengaged from Canada.
I asked for help from Carleton University's journalism school, which is one of the major journalism schools in this country. They got their hands on Radio-Canada's Le Téléjournal and CBC's The National for every day in 2010 and 2011.
It turned out that nearly 50 per cent of Radio-Canada news broadcasts concerned Quebec. The second block concerned international news, as Mr. Séguin noted. And news about Canada's Parliament, but from the viewpoint of the Quebec government, came in third. As a result, in a news broadcast of nearly half an hour, there was an average of two minutes on the other nine provinces and the territories. That was the finding.
I published that study. Radio-Canada defended itself by saying that the study was based on Le Téléjournal and The National and that there are several other news broadcasts in a 24-hour period, at 5 a.m., and so on. They obviously forgot the analysis by the CRTC, which stated that one news broadcast in the evenings, on the English and French networks, had to provide an overview of Canada as a whole, one news broadcast.
So they did not criticize the study in the slightest, and I will be happy to send it to you if you are interested in it. It is a remarkable study conducted on both networks over two years, 365 days a year, and you are right in saying that the news is not really a serious proposition on TVA and the V channel. If you want to take a closer look, you will see that, with the exception of Ottawa, with the exception of Radio-Canada, no Quebec news media outlet, including La Presse, has full-time journalists outside Quebec. On the other hand, La Presse has nine full-time foreign correspondents outside Canada, in New York, Los Angeles, Rio de Janeiro, Moscow, two in Paris and one in London, but none outside Quebec or Ottawa. And we are talking about a major newspaper.
Like you, I have read the Broadcasting Act, in which the Parliament of Canada gave CBC/Radio-Canada nine missions. Mr. Séguin referred to some of them, including creating a national conscience, cultural exchange and so on.
What must be borne in mind, and the CRTC noted this, is that journalists have a dual role: their first role is to gather information, and their second is to give us the important news. And if they do not tell us about it, it is not important.
As Radio-Canada does not talk about the rest of Canada, except for two minutes per news broadcast, I thought that was perhaps why entire generations of young Quebecers had withdrawn from Canada, because news about Canada is generally broadcast after the international news, to make viewers understand that we have now gone around the world, but we are coming to another country very far away from you, since it comes after all the others.
I do not know whether you noticed that one young Quebecer today is unaware of the vitality of the French communities in Manitoba, Alberta, New Brunswick and Saskatchewan and that 27 per cent of Canadians outside Quebec can converse and communicate in French, 27 per cent. They think that there are only a few, but, according to Statistics Canada, one in four Canadians who can converse in French does not live in Quebec.
I agree with you that Radio-Canada's quality is incomparably superior to that of other networks. What the other stations want is an audience so they can sell advertising. They do not sell in the other provinces. And there must be local news in order to sell that advertising, as Mr. Laurin said. They will not be able to do that by broadcasting news from elsewhere.
Radio-Canada is funded by taxpayers across Canada and I think it is not normal for Canadians who want to know what is going on in their country to have to start watching RDI at 9 o'clock and to have to watch CBC at 10 o'clock because there is only one of the two.
When I speak with francophones from other provinces, they tell me that they have to watch RDI if they want to know what is going on in Quebec and to watch CBC if they want to know what is going on in Canada.
As Senator Dawson told you, the CBC and Radio-Canada are two organizations that exist under a single act; a single corporation, not two or three. The act established one corporation, and the CRTC noted what Senator Dawson said, that, in practice, the two never speak to each other. There is no communication between the two.
If ever that interests you, I devoted three parts to this subject, which haunted me, that is to say how it is that entire generations have no affinity with their country as reported by the national network and that they know nothing about the francophone communities outside Quebec. Because, between you and me, you have to admit that there is not much merit in speaking French in the beautiful region of Lanaudière or near the St. Lawrence, just as there is not much merit in speaking it in Chicoutimi.
However, it is something to fight for a French-language university in Manitoba. And yet that terribly irritated Radio-Canada, to the point that, when she was there for Radio-Canada's 50th anniversary, Céline Galipeau asked francophones when they were going to stop speaking French. That is what happened. I would like to hear your reaction to my thoughts, and I will be pleased to send you my study report.
Mr. Laurin: We are used to not having access to news from elsewhere. Consequently, we focus on our own. You need knowledge in order to be interested. Radio-Canada should not necessarily try to attract a clientele; instead it should interest people by transforming the news to make it interesting. What should they do? They should gradually, increasingly introduce it and make that information interesting so that, over time, people see two or three times what is going on in Saskatchewan, for example. And people will increasingly want to know what is going on in Saskatchewan and that will interest us. We will have to go about it gradually to try to find out what is going on elsewhere. When I talked about the local and regional viewpoint, that also concerned the other provinces. At the local level, there are the city, the region and the province, but that is also regional for the other provinces. It is important that the local or regional level not be just for our city or our region.
Lastly, you could tell Radio-Canada that, if there is no talk up above, there will be no talk down below either. It is quite logical why that is not working right now; it is because it is coming from up above. That is quite clear.
Senator De Bané: You are so right, Mr. Laurin.
Mr. Provost: As you said earlier, it is true that we do not get a lot of news from the rest of Canada on Le Téléjournal in Quebec. I have a brief response to that. It is not a good response, but it is a response, and that is that they have to compete with the other networks, such as TVA and V, which broadcast very local news. Radio-Canada has to compete with that and it does so in the way you explained. That is a problem. I know that a lot of people in New Brunswick said they were lacking francophone news and that the news was always about Montreal. That is something that has to be developed in every province where CBC/Radio-Canada has offices. The communities have to be provided with a French-language service, which means local news for those francophone communities. If there is local news, then it can be transferred to the national level and across the country, but, if we do not have local offices to meet those francophone communities or to report the news for them, we do not get that news in Quebec.
Senator De Bané: Earlier I said that the others have no full-time people outside Ottawa. Radio-Canada has 230 full- time journalists in the 9 provinces outside Quebec, except that the person who selects the news that is broadcast in the evenings is obviously a guy in Montreal. He receives videos from across the country early in the afternoon every day. They arrive in Montreal, and he may broadcast one of them on Le Téléjournal that evening. There are 230 full-time journalists in the French-language network in the other provinces, but all those videos are sent to Montreal and it is Montreal that decides whether one of them is worth broadcasting on Le Téléjournal in the evening.
Mr. Provost: I think that is because they are facing broadcasters like TVA and V, which target provincial news to a greater degree, and Radio-Canada in Quebec has to compete with them if they want to secure ratings and market share in order to generate revenue. I am not saying that is right.
Senator De Bané: The CRTC has ruled very clearly that Radio-Canada's mission is not to compete with the private sector. If the private sector engages in that kind of thing, that is fine, but the Broadcasting Act provides for nine missions that Radio-Canada must carry out, and it is given $1 billion of Canadian taxpayers' money as a result. So if all they want is to compete with V and TVA, that is not their mission.
Mr. Séguin: I think your diagnosis is very lucid. The less people hear about the rest of Canada, the less they are interested in it. Quebec nationalists feed on the English enemy, which is a kind of big, faceless monster. I say that because I grew up with that English enemy. The town of Hudson is near Rigaud, and we did not go there because it was English. It was as though it was another country, whereas it was the village next door.
It was not until I started meeting people in Ottawa and Toronto that I realized that the English were not such dangerous people and that they did not want to hurt me that much.
In a way, I wonder whether that nationalism has not filtered out Radio-Canada's decision-makers in Montreal, where they say to themselves that the most interesting thing is the French fact in Quebec, our uniqueness. That uniqueness, together with a desire to sell and increase ratings, blinds them to the appeal of presenting what goes on elsewhere and then fuels a vicious circle in which the other side is increasingly viewed as Canada, the rest of Canada, an anglophone monolith that threatens us as a minority society and that drives the nationalist discourse even more.
Senator De Bané: Even in Quebec, where French is not the mother tongue of 20 per cent of the population, those groups are never mentioned when I watch Radio-Canada in the evening. With regard to that 20 per cent of the population, not a word is said about the anglophones who have been there for nearly three centuries. No mention is made of them, except obviously when someone wants to build resentment against our anglophone compatriots. It is extraordinary that this community is forgotten even in Quebec.
There is one thing that I cannot get used to. René Homier-Roy has his program every morning from 5 to 9 o'clock. It is on Radio-Canada radio for four hours every day. And every day he reaches correspondents outside the country. They are in Rio one day and somewhere else the next day, but, in those four hours, he will never call a Radio-Canada correspondent anywhere in the other provinces. That happens every day. Listen to him; I do. We hear from people around the world, but no journalists from the other Canadian provinces. That does not happen.
The Chair: That is very interesting, but I must now hand the floor over to another senator.
Senator Tardif: Thanks to all three of you for your excellent presentations. Most of the questions I wanted to put to you have been asked by my colleagues. However, since you are here as individuals, I would like to know what motivated you to come and talk to us about CBC/Radio-Canada today.
Mr. Provost: I am very interested in communications. The idea appealed to me, and I felt drawn to the subject as a fairly regular listener of Radio-Canada radio. I had things to say and that is why I came.
Mr. Laurin: In fact, my regional youth forum was looking for someone and they asked me if I was interested. At the youth forum, we do a lot to address the concerns of young people in our region, and, seeing that you needed young people, I thought it was time to represent the region for the sake of its interests and as an individual. That is why I wanted to come today.
Mr. Séguin: The youth forum in my region was also looking for someone. A general call was sent out and I submitted my name for two reasons. The first was that I love Radio-Canada. I really like Radio-Canada; I really like what they do. I find it sad every time I hear about budget cuts. So I thought I should come to Ottawa to say that budget cuts should not be made to Radio-Canada.
Afterwards, I thought that the Senate was less political than the House; I should have gone next door to tell them not to make any cuts. The other reason was that I was very curious to see what the Senate was like.
Senator Tardif: Thank you for being honest.
Senator Dawson: The answer?
Mr. Séguin: It is interesting, like a master's or doctoral seminar; we discuss the issues, although we cannot ask you questions.
Senator Tardif: I really sense your attachment to Radio-Canada. I find it quite admirable that young people like you three have this love and engagement for Radio-Canada.
I come from Alberta, an anglophone majority province, but one with a francophone community that shows a high degree of vitality. We are always trying to engage our young people in the idea of living in French. Obviously it is always a challenge to give them opportunities to live in French and to instil the habit of watching television in French, or using French websites or listening to French radio. You are from Quebec. The situation is somewhat different, but if you had any suggestions to make to Radio-Canada about how to reach young people in the francophone minority communities, as in the province of Alberta, what suggestions would you make?
Mr. Provost: I would suggest getting them involved by consulting them, by determining what interests them. The best thing is to listen to them. Meet with young people and listen to them, and you will know their needs and be in a better position to respond to them.
Mr. Laurin: It takes a little more than just listening to them. You also have to include young people in the decision- making process. I have no idea how Radio-Canada or the others operate, but including young people in boards of directors and organizational committees, in programming, and not just on an advisory basis, but as part of the decision-making process, would be beneficial. They can give their opinions, but you also have to take them into account.
Voting around a table is important. For example, once again I do not know how it works, but at Radio-Canada's regional stations such as Radio Rive-Nord in my area, are there any young people who are involved and can give their opinions? Do young francophones in Alberta try to give CBC/Radio-Canada their opinions? Are they asked to go and work with them? That is one of the important questions. Young people have to be involved in the decision-making process.
Mr. Séguin: With regard to the local content issue, some of my family members live in Ontario. One of the things that frustrates them every time they meet Quebecers is their ethnocentricity. They consider themselves a bit superior in the way they embody the French fact. Just as Quebecers have a complex about the French, there may be a complex elsewhere in Canada, hence the importance of producing content with which young people from Saskatchewan, New Brunswick, British Columbia and Alberta can identify as well.
I am caught up in my own ethnocentricity because, in my mind, francophone and Alberta do not go together: oh yes, it is true: there are francophones in Alberta too! That shows that I, first of all, have to make a little progress on that too. It is very important that young people be able to identify with it.
Mr. Laurin: I recently attended a meeting of the Fédération de la jeunesse canadienne-française, a society based here in Ottawa. They raised an interesting point with regard to Radio-Canada and I just remembered it. French is standardized in the French-language news broadcasts in the regions. Regional accents are not used. It is important to consider that point. People speak a certain French in Quebec, but French is standardized elsewhere in Canada for francophone minorities, and it is important to take that into account. If news readers used their regional accents more, for example, that would interest them more and show greater respect for the francophone minority.
Senator Tardif: That is definitely a very interesting point. You mentioned complexes. People often believe that they do not speak as well as those who live in Quebec, and, in Quebec, as you say, Quebecers feel uncomfortable at the richness of expression that the French may exhibit. Standardization may imply a value judgment and thus a judgment regarding the status of the language and of the people who live in that language.
I am interested in local programming, a point you raised several times. Is it an important aspect for you? Because we often say that, when we do not see ourselves reflected in what we are, that also causes problems with identity and engagement. Do you see local programming as a factor in this issue of engagement and identity in the broader francophone community?
Mr. Provost: Yes, it is a factor, and both Canadian identity and regional identity are affected by local content. It is by showing people what is going on in their area that you can touch them and tell them: Look at what is going on in your area, and it is also going on elsewhere in Canada. With regional identity, if you assemble all that, then you will be able to shape the national identity, but it is very important for Radio-Canada to be a real presence in every region, and Radio-Canada's identity and attachment to Radio-Canada are shaped by that. This has to be about the values that people share.
Mr. Laurin: You have to know the other group's past, present and future in order to contemplate a common development, a future together. To respect, you must understand, and to recognize, you must first know. Once again, when I talked about regional identity, the idea was to accurately represent our sense of belonging to our own region, back home in Quebec, for example, but also in Canada as such. It starts with our home, but, after that, you have to develop the idea a little more and go further and draw comparisons between a region like Alberta and that of Quebec. It is as simple as that.
Senator Mockler: Radio-Canada's mandate, just to recall it a little, states that it should actively contribute to the flow and exchange of cultural expression. However, services should be provided in English and in French, reflecting the different needs and circumstances of each official language community. They should also strive to be of equivalent quality in English and in French.
Young people have a role to play, and I encourage you to continue learning and to increase your awareness of francophones, in the Yukon, British Columbia or any other Canadian province. I come from New Brunswick, so I know that the fight is constant and that you will never turn the page. You will have to work in close cooperation. Radio-Canada is a work instrument for Canadians. We must reinforce the multicultural Canadian identity and presence among both anglophones and minority francophones.
You also have a duty. You also have other responsibilities. Based on your experience, do you see this lack across the country?
Mr. Provost: As regards the quality between the CBC and Radio-Canada, earlier I spoke briefly about sports; we were talking about hockey and other sports in general. Radio-Canada's French-language sports service is considerably lacking relative to CBC in English. I mentioned hockey, which is the national sport, but this is true of any sport. If you want to talk about a sports event other than the Olympic Games on Radio-Canada, you may see a tennis match. Sports programs are not broadcast in prime time.
I believe that the fact that Radio-Canada offers this event free of charge to all Canadians shows a deficiency on the francophone side. I think there is an imbalance between the CBC and Radio-Canada in sports.
Mr. Laurin: I am the first person to acknowledge that there is a lack of knowledge. Once again, this may be repetitive, but this is really a matter of openness to the other group in the matter of gathering the news elsewhere in Canada, particularly in the francophone communities. I think this is extremely important. I am even trying to get involved, to gather information, but it is difficult. I think that comes from both sides.
And to come back to what we were saying earlier, I wonder whether the same is true on the anglophone side. Do francophones have to gather news there or can it not be given? Do anglophones gather news in Quebec, in French?
You said there were no Radio-Canada journalists in Quebec gathering news in the other provinces. Is the reverse done? Do they gather news in Quebec?
Senator De Bané: There are some ten full-time anglophone journalists in Quebec.
Mr. Laurin: This exchange is important for the purpose of knowing the other group. We must not wind up in a situation in which we are the only ones gathering news. Let others give it to us, let us make it interesting and let us retain a level of quality, but let it be accessible. I think it has to be gradual. If, from one day to the next, 50 per cent of the news comes solely from across Canada, that is a shock too. It has to be gradual. I would be very open to that, but it is important for it to be gradual, not sudden.
Mr. Séguin: In fact, I would simply add that, once again, this is a question of national unity. Several sociology studies have shown how the media are fundamentally important in developing a national identity. In Radio-Canada, we have a marvellous tool in our hands, even though it may need a minor reform.
I think you are far enough along in your work to propose those reforms that will help optimize the tool we have in our hands, which is a great platform, but that would do well to be slightly more unified. Perhaps CBC/Radio-Canada is, in a way, like the country.
The Chair: Gentlemen, on behalf of the members of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages, I would like to offer you our sincere thanks. This was your first experience testifying before a Senate committee. I hope it was a positive experience for you. Allow me to tell you that it was very positive for us, and it is always a pleasure to hear the viewpoint of young Canadians and, in your case, of young French-speaking Canadians from Quebec.
I am going to ask you to leave here this evening as ambassadors and not to forget that there are francophones outside Quebec, that there are Acadians and francophones in Alberta, Manitoba and across Canada. I leave that with you as a mission. Talk about it when you have a chance and continue the work you are doing. I think it is excellent.
On behalf of the members of the committee, thank you very much, to the three of you.
Honourable senators, we will now suspend the sitting for a few minutes and continue in camera.
(The committee continued in camera.)