Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources
Issue 8 - Evidence - March 6, 2014
OTTAWA, Thursday, March 6, 2014
The Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources met this day at 8:01 a.m. to study the current state of ``One Call'' programs that identify critical underground infrastructure in Canada; and for the consideration of a draft budget.
Senator Richard Neufeld (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Welcome to this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources. My name is Richard Neufeld. I represent the Province of British Columbia in the Senate, and I am chair of the committee.
I would like to welcome honourable senators, any members of the public with us in the room, and viewers all across the country who are watching on television. As a reminder to those watching, these committee hearings are open to the public and are also available via the webcast on our sen.parl.gc.ca website. You may also find more information on the schedule of witnesses on the website under ``Senate Committees.''
I would now ask senators around the table to introduce themselves. I will introduce my deputy chair, Senator Mitchell, from Alberta.
Senator Tkachuk: Senator David Tkachuk from Saskatchewan.
Senator Boisvenu: Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu, Quebec.
Senator Massicotte: Paul Massicotte, Quebec.
Senator Black: Doug Black, Alberta.
Senator Wallace: John Wallace, New Brunswick.
Senator Seidman: Judith Seidman from Montreal, Quebec.
The Chair: I would also like to introduce our clerk, Lynn Gordon, and our two Library of Parliament analysts, Sam Banks and Marc LeBlanc.
Today we are continuing to examine the current state of the One Call or Call Before You Dig programs that identify critical underground infrastructure in Canada.
It gives me great pleasure to welcome our witness from the National Energy Board, Mr. Gaétan Caron, Chair and CEO. Thank you for being here, sir; you're a regular guest, and we appreciate it. We look forward to your remarks, and then we'll open it to questions and answers.
Gaétan Caron, Chair and CEO, National Energy Board of Canada: The safety of Canadians and the protection of the environment is the National Energy Board's top priority, so I welcome the opportunity to speak to you today on the important topic of preventing damage to pipelines and the role Canada's One Call services play in that.
Many rules and standards are borne out of tragedy, and the NEB's current framework governing work in the vicinity of pipelines is no exception. Having been at the board for nearly 35 years, I remember the incident in 1985 at the farm north of Oshawa, Ontario, where a high-pressure natural gas pipeline was accidentally ruptured by the blade of a 30-tonne plow. The escaping gas ignited, resulting in an explosion and fire that killed one person and injured four.
This, like all pipeline incidents, was preventable. A key outcome of this tragedy was the enactment of the board's pipeline crossing regulations that set the foundation of our Damage Prevention Framework.
Many years have passed since that incident, but one thing that has not changed is the board's resolve to continually improve how it is meeting its mandate to regulate pipelines for safety and environmental protection.
Our efforts in this regard are yielding important results. Our goal of zero incidents is not only the right goal but an achievable one. Overall in 2013, we saw a decrease in reportable incidents. The frequency of natural gas releases was down. While we saw an increase in the number of incidents with respect to liquids, overall release volumes were down significantly this year and have been declining since 2009. In 2013, all liquid releases from NEB-regulated energy facilities have been fully remediated, with the exceptions only where clean-up is underway and full remediation is expected.
Companies have been doing a better job of monitoring their facilities and reporting indents. I firmly believe that the facilities we regulate are safe and the environment in which they operate is well protected.
At the same time, our work is never finished. We strive to continue to improve, because the tragic incident I just described is a poignant reminder of the risk of unsafe activities.
That brings me to the topic of your important study here today.
[Translation]
The NEB is committed to continually reducing the risks around the facilities it regulates, and we amend our damage prevention framework in response to emerging trends or issues that could affect the safety and security of those facilities.
[English]
Unauthorized activities fall under the board's pipeline crossing regulations and include any excavation activity for which the appropriate permission or leave of the board is required and has not been obtained, or when safety instructions are not followed. The board actively collaborates with the broader damage prevention community, which includes other decision makers, regulators, infrastructure and facility owners, municipalities, and the digging and locating community in pursuit of natural best practices for working around pipelines and the reduction in the number of unauthorized activities.
The NEB is the designated federal regulatory champion for the Canadian Common Ground Alliance, the CCGA, from whom you heard last week. We share with them the same goal of promoting effective practices to reduce damages to underground infrastructure in order to best ensure public safety and environmental protection.
We supported the CCGA's application to the CRTC for shared use of a national three-digit number for Call Before You Dig services. While we were disappointed with the CRTC's decision to decline the request at that time, we recognize there are other options available that serve the same purpose as a three-digit number. For example, Click Before You Dig may be as effective or even more effective than Call Before You Dig.
The NEB must also create the conditions necessary to hold people accountable for carrying out their responsibilities around pipelines. We hosted a safety forum last spring in Calgary where nearly 400 participants representing the public, Aboriginal peoples, industry, academia, government and others discussed topics such as corporate leadership's role in building and maintaining a safety culture, the effectiveness of management systems, and the role of performance measurement in risk management. Other areas explored included how industry can work to strengthen public trust, and the evolving role of the regulator.
Our compliance monitoring and enforcement activities support the NEB's Damage Prevention Framework and are used to promote safety and environmental protection.
With the passing of the Jobs, Growth and Long-term Prosperity Act, Parliament provided the NEB with additional tools in our enforcement tool kit, such as the ability to issue monetary penalties, or AMPs as we call them. AMPs allow us to issue financial penalties ranging from up to $25,000 for an individual and $100,000 for corporations per violation per day, with no maximum total financial penalty.
Having said that, we expect most of our compliance efforts to focus mainly on individual awareness-building and holding companies accountable for their responsibilities to educate and inform.
One of the best ways to be safe is to call or click before you dig. This single contact initiates the key communication processes that will identify the location of pipelines and other buried utilities and provide critical information on how to work safely around them. A mandatory requirement to contact a One-Call centre best ensures that all underground facilities are considered in a decision to proceed with construction or excavation in areas over or near a pipeline.
The NEB has issued a notice of proposed regulatory change, number 2013-01. The proposed changes will require anyone planning construction or excavation activities within certain areas set out in the National Energy Board Act and its regulations to make a locate request by contacting a One-Call centre at least three working days before beginning those activities.
If a One-Call centre is not established in the area, parties will be required to contact the pipeline company directly. We will also require pipeline companies to be members of One-Call centres in geographical areas where one exists and the company has a pipeline.
Last summer this committee released an important report on the safe transportation of hydrocarbons in Canada. It placed great emphasis on the importance of safety culture within companies. We strongly agree with your committee in that respect.
[Translation]
These changes that I have just outlined build on the board's commitment to the development of safety cultures in the companies we regulate, which is one of the fundamental ways to address pipeline safety, and further formalize safety culture within regulated safety requirements.
[English]
We will continue our efforts to improve pipeline safety and the protection of Canadians and the environment. While we are encouraged by the latest 2013 statistics that show a decrease in reportable incidents, we remain committed to continuing to improve the damage-prevention framework and working towards a reduction in all incidents, with the ultimate goal of seeing none at all.
[Translation]
Thank you once again, honourable senators, for the opportunity to speak to you today. In closing, let me assure you of the NEB's resolve to continually improve the safety of Canadians and protection of the environment.
[English]
I would be delighted to answer any questions the committee has.
Senator Mitchell: Thank you, Mr. Caron, I appreciate it very much. It's nice to see you again. You're not quite to the level of Brenda Kenny, who is practically a member of this committee because she appears so often, but you're getting up there.
I'm interested in the jurisdictional issue, because probably the greatest number of pipelines and the greatest amount of underground infrastructure is really under provincial jurisdiction. You've touched upon that relationship a little bit.
I want to clarify that if there were a network of One-Call centres across the provinces, and that's what Common Ground is envisioning, there would be a central call or a click place, but there would be individual agencies. Then you would see — and in fact you probably do because they do exist — people going through those provincial bodies to identify federally regulated pipeline locations.
Mr. Caron: That's the vision, senator, exactly. That Click Before You Dig site already exists. For senators around this table who have a tablet, just type ``Click Before You Dig.'' You will find a map of Canada with every province shown, and you click on a province and you find exactly as you describe, senator.
Our goal or action in our proposed regulatory changes will make it mandatory for pipelines we regulate to go through that process three days before any activity occurs. Actually, it's for the pipelines to be a member of a One-Call centre, so they are identified when you click on the map, and for people who want to excavate or construct to go through that site as a matter of necessity.
Senator Mitchell: Is there a specific cost to the federal government for that? The way this process is structured, as I understand at least, is that the companies themselves pay per call by a third party. If a third party calls to dig, the company pays for that call, so it's not really a federal or direct government expense.
Mr. Caron: I don't know exactly whether the federal government or other levels of government contribute to this collaboration. It is a massive collaboration. It is based on goodwill, based on people wanting to keep people safe. So whether levels of government have contributions in dollars in the program, I do not know. I just know that it's a contribution from a wide range of parties.
It is adopted as a best practice because it works, and the results speak for themselves. When you call or click before you dig, your chances of hitting something you don't want to hit are considerably lower.
Senator Mitchell: One of the major focuses of Common Ground is to have legislation province by province, and Ontario has led the way with their Bill 8. Actually, we heard from the sponsor of that bill. Their argument is they don't want people to be forced to do this, but in fact it's not working on a voluntary basis particularly well. In the case of Ontario, for example, people might have to phone as many as 13 or 14 places before they dig.
In the U.S. case, even though the jurisdictional issues were much the same, the federal government actually did catalyze the process somehow.
Can you envision a way that the federal level could assist in doing that in Canada, or is that just not possible?
Mr. Caron: Senator, I believe that the Parliament of Canada is the supreme authority in this matter and could very well decide, perhaps under your recommendation, to proceed on that basis.
You're correct: the United States has a very different framework, different arrangement and structure, and they have a mandatory 811 system. In the U.S. you call 811, and as a result of common action at the federal and state level, this is how it proceeds.
In our case, it could be that it's not a three-digit number, but something by legislation requiring Click Before You Dig or something equivalent — there are many versions of the same thing — could be in place.
I can tell you, senator, something like that would create positive outcomes. Whether it's a wise policy move, I leave that to senators and policy-makers. We are administrators of legislation, so I will refrain from urging you to do so. But I will tell you, if you did so, positive outcomes will result.
Senator Seidman: I did want to ask what the Click Before You Dig program was but you've already told us, so that's great. I'm going to try that on my tablet.
Michael Sullivan, the executive director of the Canadian Common Ground Alliance, was here at the end of February, and I asked him about the lack of data on the One-Call systems, especially in terms of reduction of incidents and cost-effectiveness. He said that data existed — some data anyway — for B.C., Quebec and Ontario. I was wondering if the NEB collects this kind of data for federally regulated underground infrastructure.
Mr. Caron: Senator, I don't know. If we do, I will undertake to provide information to Ms. Gordon, the clerk, so you have it readily available.
Senator Seidman: That would be helpful, because I think one of the things the committee is trying to understand is something that seems so obvious that would really enhance safety, yet there's a certain amount of resistance, and so we're trying to understand why. Is it a question of cost? I'm not sure.
If we had data that showed reduction in incidents that would demonstrate cost-effectiveness, it would perhaps go some way in persuading other sectors and corporations to throw their hat into a One-Call system.
Mr. Caron: I understand clearly your interest, senator. I can say with great conviction that if we could make a direct connect between the existence of a One-Call centre and a safety outcome, when you debate the pros and cons and the benefit costs, it's very important information. You're talking about saving lives and protecting the environment there. So if that data exists, I undertake to provide it to Ms. Gordon for the committee.
Senator Seidman: I appreciate that. You said that you hosted a safety forum last spring. There were participants from across all stakeholder groups and interested parties. You said that you discussed topics such as the corporate leadership role in building and maintaining a safety culture, effectiveness of management systems and the role of performance measurement and risk management.
Could you tell me a bit about what you discussed, especially when it comes to the role of performance assessment and risk management?
Mr. Caron: Senator, it was actually beyond a discussion. I was amazed and impressed that after a day and a half of talking with such a large and broad group of people, and in my opening remarks I talked about the goal of zero incidents, there was unanimity of view that this ought to be the goal; and as my remarks said, it was not only a goal on paper but something you believe you can do. It's a goal that airplanes must land at destinations. It's not always met 100 per cent of the time, but that's the goal, and it's almost always met.
I was impressed that a broad range of people, who had many reasons to disagree, actually agreed, not only on the end goal but also on the means to the end. We had five CEOs of the largest pipeline companies in Canada on one panel. They also happened to lead pipeline companies that are among the largest in the United States. They were totally united on their personal responsibility as leaders to say that safety is number one, and I want the front line workers to believe me when I say that. For instance if they have concerns about their safety, I expect them to call a time out and let profits go to number two. Safety is number one. That safety culture is something that begins with me as CEO.
I was doubly surprised, senator, when I asked a question of the floor to these five CEOs. I said: One day, would you see yourselves being audited for compliance with respect to the existence of the safety culture in your company? We don't have yet any methodology to audit for compliance with safety culture, but we all have a feeling that it can be done; but we're not ready for it. Even then I was surprised by them saying: Come tomorrow and audit me. See what kind of culture I lead in my organization. That was the buzz, if you like, senator, for the day and a half that we kept agreeing on everything.
Senator Seidman: That's helpful. You also said in your presentation to us that the NEB must create the conditions necessary to hold people accountable. Now, you've given us this information that there really isn't yet a way to measure that culture of safety.
Mr. Caron: You can measure the outcome, senator, and that's why I gave you a glimpse of the new information we're trying to make transparently available to Canadians: the reduction in volume of oil escaping into the environment and the reduced number of incidents. We are starting to gain the capacity to mine our own data until evidence-based stories as to the safety outcome of our work. That will come together well with leadership in industry — a strong watchdog called the National Energy Board of Canada with the main goal to verify compliance. When we see non-compliance, we intervene, enforce and seek to penalize if necessary.
[Translation]
Senator Massicotte: Thank you, Mr. Caron, for joining us this morning. Your being here is very much appreciated.
As I listened to your presentation, I found the whole ``Click Before You Dig'' idea quite interesting. You cited a decrease in the number of incidents as compared with the past. To be frank, that surprises me. I was under the impression that for the past year or so, more incidents had occurred given that a number of major projects are under way — projects I support, by the way. I was quite troubled, in fact. Are you telling me I was worried about nothing, then?
Mr. Caron: I would not go as far as to say you were wrong. On the contrary, you pay attention to what happens around the world, and the things that have happened in the past few years are not necessarily reassuring.
The explosion of the drilling platform in the Gulf of Mexico exemplifies that, as does the accident in San Bruno, just outside San Francisco, in which ten or so people were killed as a result of a fire caused by a ruptured gas pipeline. Events like that leave their mark on the public consciousness.
Canadians are aware of incidents like the Enbridge accident near the Kalamazoo River and the major oil spill in Alberta two years ago. We now know that energy grids can cause incidents that have repercussions for public safety.
Please bear in mind that not all of the incidents I mentioned came under the authority of the National Energy Board. Canadians are well-served by the jurisdiction of the NEB, as overseen by Parliament. And the proof is, on the one hand, in the lack of any significant tragedies so far — touch wood — and, on the other hand, in the implementation of specific measures based on facts that demonstrate ongoing improvement.
I would caution you, however, not to feel totally reassured. We are the safety watchdog and are always on the lookout for new ways to further improve our results.
Therefore, I will not tell you this morning that I am satisfied with our results, nor will I ever say such a thing. I am satisfied knowing that tomorrow will be better than yesterday and that, each and every day, we persist in our efforts to improve safety, above all, safety cultures and management systems, all of which reflect gradual steps in the right direction.
Senator Massicotte: Basically, we are doing well here, in Canada, but that is less so the case in the U.S. Is that an accurate summary?
Mr. Caron: I would be reluctant to make a general assessment of the situation; I would not want to paint everything with the same brush. At the federal regulatory level, we have not had the misfortune of experiencing accidents that leave an imprint on the public consciousness. Other jurisdictions have not been as lucky. That applies not just to the U.S., but also to Nigeria, which has faced a number of environmental problems, Russia and Australia, as far as drilling platforms are concerned.
I repeat, you should not draw comfort from the fact that we, in Canada, have not had any serious accidents. The NEB has to work very hard to ensure the ongoing safety of Canadians.
Senator Massicotte: I understand, but the U.S. regulatory regime seems fairly similar to ours. Some might think that more incidents occur in the U.S. simply because it covers a larger area, but we could also draw the inference that big problems could just as easily happen in Canada. Are Canadians right to be somewhat leery about the projects being proposed these days?
Mr. Caron: For the time being, I do not have any information for you to give Canadians. But I can tell you not only that new pipeline projects use new materials, a rather reassuring fact, but also that ageing grids are protected by our regulatory framework, which requires the companies in question to ensure a high level of maintenance.
As I was discussing with Senator Seidman, we have management programs and a constant eye to safety. Our job is to keep every pipeline in safe condition. If we have even the slightest doubt, we immediately get down to work to achieve the desired outcome: zero incidents.
Senator Massicotte: We visited big companies in Alberta, and their leaders assured us that, even in the case of older pipelines, testing was carried out and technology was available to address issues. They told us not to worry; they said there were no problems. Yet problems are continually emerging. And we no longer know whether our opinion is justified given that incidents are continually happening.
You said that your goal of zero incidents is achievable.
Mr. Caron: Yes.
Senator Massicotte: Goals are important. I hope to live till I am 130, but there is a greater likelihood that I will not. I accept that and realize my hope may not be realistic. Do you truly believe that your goal of zero incidents is an achievable reality in the next 20 or 25 years?
Mr. Caron: I believe in that goal. As an example, let us assume that a big company has 500 ten-wheelers. They are safe because they are properly maintained. But if they fell into disrepair, because brake checks and mechanical inspections were not done, these trucks would pose a major public safety risk. A well-run trucking company, one that invests in service and maintenance and periodically replaces old trucks with new ones, can call its fleet safe. The company has to work hard every day to ensure its fleet is well-maintained.
The same is true of pipelines. If a pipeline is neglected but continues to be used to transport natural gas and oil, without any regard for the possible consequences, the operating risks, scientifically speaking, will result in pipelines that are not safe.
But because we have a regulatory body like the NEB, which has considerable powers such as the ability to impose penalties, we fare better than other countries do as far as results go. And that is not to say we can just sit back and relax, quite the opposite.
[English]
The Chair: Just quickly, in respect to one of Senator Massicotte's questions, you mentioned the BP blowout in the Gulf. That's not a pipeline rupture. That was something totally different. That was a drilling accident. I don't know why you mentioned that, but you did.
Mr. Caron: Can I tell you why, senator? If you look at the root causes of major industrial accidents, you find that the root causes are depressingly similar. If you have not already, I urge you to invite Professor Mark Fleming of Saint Mary's University. He looks at industrial accident through the lens of psychology, and he finds that major accidents, including pipeline accidents, relevant to Senator Massicotte's question, are based on the fact that people don't do what they are supposed to do. Safety culture and weak management systems are why I drew a comparison, senator, with the offshore oil industry. I could discuss the space shuttle in the same kind of conversation.
Senator Black: Before I ask you the couple of questions I have, I want to put on the record my thanks to you for the contribution you've made to the National Energy Board and to Canadians for your years of service. I understand retirement is looming, and I think this committee would be remiss if we didn't publicly thank you for the contribution and the leadership that you have shown in some very difficult times.
Mr. Caron: Thank you so much.
Senator Black: I have a couple of questions for you. You've been very clear in respect to what your expectation is. Of course we understand that not only are there oil and gas pipelines buried, but there are sewer pipelines, cable, electricity and water. There are all kinds of other types of pipelines that are outside your purview. You would agree with that?
Mr. Caron: Yes, I do, senator.
Senator Black: In terms of effecting a solution here, are you satisfied with the results that we're seeing in both Ontario and Alberta through the system that they have implemented? Is that working, in your view?
Mr. Caron: I think it is, senator.
Senator Black: I see.
Mr. Caron: I will explain why. You could also instead ask people who do excavation to call the companies themselves but, if you call a pipeline company, you don't know if the person with whom you talk will know that there is also a power cable and this and that. The Click Before You Dig allows you to penetrate all layers of things you may find, so that's better than a direct call to the company you think might be affected by your digging operation.
Senator Black: Of course. In respect of Senator Seidman's excellent questioning, if we were to look at the incidence of incidents in Alberta and Ontario as compared to say New Brunswick or Nova Scotia, we should see better outcomes in terms of safety, should we not?
Mr. Caron: I would like data to say so, because that's my presumption and that's why I agree Senator Seidman's question was excellent in terms of the cause and effect relationship we are looking for here.
Senator Black: My last question relates to your view, if you feel able to offer a view, on constitutionality. Does the Government of Canada, in your view, have the constitutional authority, given property and civil rights in the province, to implement a One Call system nationally?
Mr. Caron: I will admit my lack of knowledge in the legal domain, senator, to be able to give you a clear answer to that. There is scope for leadership at the level at the federal government. We play that role already on a goodwill basis. No one has told us we do not have the legal basis to be the champion.
Senator Black: As a lawyer, I would be the last person to tell you that.
Mr. Caron: Who would sue you if they felt you went too far in promoting the safety of Canadians? I don't know. But that is not a legal answer to your question.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: I do not have many questions, but there is something I am curious about. You mentioned a number of incidents that have led us to be very vigilant. How many of those were due to human error and how many were accidental, whether because of the materials used or faulty installation? How many of those incidents could have been prevented?
Mr. Caron: I appreciate your question because it forces me to do a bit of thinking. When it comes to accidents, I would put the proportion of human error at close to 100 per cent. Say an accident was the result of faulty metal products that caused the pipeline to rupture. If you trace the problem back to its source, you find out that an engineer failed to properly assess the soil conditions or how the steel would behave in order to prevent a possible rupture. Or a technician using a measurement tool to check for irregularities in the pipeline may have missed them or used a defective instrument to take the measurements.
I would say that just about every incident is preventable if management systems that underlie a safety culture are in place. Although technology can be a boon, it can also produce disappointing results if we fail to adequately consider the associated risks.
Senator Boisvenu: That brings me back to my question, then. How might a call or a click change the course of events?
Mr. Caron: The analysis of the incident that happened here in 1985, which I mentioned, clearly showed that the worker had not thought about the possibility of a pipeline beneath the site in question. Before using any equipment to dig, it is imperative that people call or click to find out what lies beneath the location in question, to ensure safety. The awareness should be automatic; you should not even have to think about it. It should be like putting on your seat belt when you get in the car.
Senator Boisvenu: You did not answer my question.
Mr. Caron: I apologize.
Senator Boisvenu: You said that things are constantly improving.
Mr. Caron: Yes.
Senator Boisvenu: How could a phone line have prevented the unfortunate incidents you mentioned? It seems to me that technology or human error was more to blame than accidental digging.
Were those incidents due to digging activities by people who had not inquired as to what might be underground before digging?
Mr. Caron: The answer is yes.
Senator Boisvenu: The majority of them?
Mr. Caron: When something happens involving a third party and a pipeline.
Senator Boisvenu: Very well.
Mr. Caron: Ruptures, however, are rare but can happen, from time to time, in sparsely populated areas. A natural gas pipeline ruptured just a few weeks ago. The pipeline burst. No one was injured because no one lives around there. It happened all of a sudden. Metallurgic elements or corrosion were to blame.
Senator Boisvenu: The majority of the incidents you reported were the result of digging activities?
Mr. Caron: No, not necessarily. I misled you.
Senator Boisvenu: What percentage, then?
Mr. Caron: Just under half. That means the incidents were caused by a third party, by human activity. The other ruptures were more spontaneous. They can be spontaneous leaks in that they were not caused or precipitated by a human action.
Senator Boisvenu: If an investment is made in the line, it has to be paid for. Will the pendulum swing back the other way?
Mr. Caron: That is what Senator Seidman was asking about.
The process already exists. I encourage you to check out Click Before You Dig and explore the website. It already works in a number of provinces. It does not involve new costs that a bunch of people will have to pay for. The system is already in place.
You will see it is operational in Alberta, Saskatchewan, British Columbia, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec and New Brunswick, just in the Saint John area, though, not province-wide. I may be forgetting one.
That is for all drilling activities.
[English]
Senator Wallace: You mentioned in your comments that the NEB has issued a notice of proposed regulatory change that would require anybody excavating or involved in construction within certain locations of lines to make a request to a One Call centre.
Mr. Caron: That's right.
Senator Wallace: There is an issue of what is under provincial authority and what is under federal authority. The One Call centres are, I understand, under provincial control, and the information to be included within a provincial One Call centre would be for each province to determine.
If you proceed with this proposed regulatory change, do you have confidence that the standards you would expect for federally regulated lines will be present in each of the provinces within their One Call centres; does it exist today?
Mr. Caron: My answer is ``yes'' — in those provinces where it exists already. Our proposed regulatory change contemplates the possibility that a One Call centre does not exist in some areas, and the change is not attempting to force or impose anything on anybody, except we would require the pipeline companies we regulate to be members of the One Call centres that exist by province, and we would require those who want to excavate to click or call three days before they operate.
The additional burden, if you like, in terms of dollars on society is really only that requirement of the pipeline companies regulated to be members of that One Call centre and the people who can hurt themselves digging near pipelines — the obligation to call before they dig, which is non-negotiable.
So the incremental costs in terms of what is needed or what is perhaps surplus are almost nil, because they exist already, senator.
There is so much good will in the Canadian Common Ground Alliance that I don't know if you will find people resisting the basic notice of calling or clicking before digging.
Senator Wallace: It makes common sense. I'm trying to understand how it works in terms of these issues before federal and provincial authority.
Mr. Caron: We find the provincial systems, where they exist, are what we need for the federal pipelines to be kept safe in terms of excavation and digging.
Senator Wallace: As far as the information that federally regulated pipeline companies would be required to put into the system — locating their lines, the detailed information that some property owner can find out exactly where the line is and so on — would that require federal regulation to compel those companies to provide such information to each provincial One Call centre?
When someone calls this One Call centre provincially, where is that information regarding these federally regulated lines that would be examined retained?
Mr. Caron: If I am wrong, I will inform the clerk, but my understanding is that these One Call centres are brokers of information. If you call and the centre says, ``You have to call TransCanada Pipelines and or Ontario Hydro'' or whatever, then you link back to these companies that must have information about the location of their own facilities. That's my understanding.
Senator Wallace: So a One Call centre is a clearinghouse; the actual information is retained by the companies themselves?
Mr. Caron: Otherwise, we would be aware of major bureaucracies responsible for knowing everything about every infrastructure, and I don't think they exist. It must be within companies that own the lands.
Senator Wallace: Some companies have tried to do just that, but you are probably quite right.
Mr. Caron, you mentioned the U.S. system for One Call centres, and I'm wondering how you would compare what you know of the U.S. system; what could we learn that we could apply in Canada? Is it a template or model we could apply here, or are there significant differences that exist between the Canadian and U.S. systems?
Mr. Caron: Not necessarily. I could not give you the summary of why the CRTC rejected their request. As I said in my remarks, there are other ways to achieve the same outcome and perhaps at a lower cost.
I will draw an analogy to offshore drilling and pipeline regulations, per se, in terms of safety. I personally find that the style of U.S. regulation is more prescriptive and more — I apologize to my American friends — ``catch people doing something wrong and draw them to a Senate committee'' as the penalty or ultimate remorse; you draw them to a Senate committee and that's the accountability.
The Canadian model in terms of spirit is more one of ``let's look for success and let's see what success looks like,'' and if necessary, penalize through administrative monetary penalties. I'm exaggerating and dramatizing to draw out the differences.
I think Americans are learning a lot from what we do at the National Energy Board of Canada when we talk about safety culture and management systems. They have had that, but it's a question of emphasis. Our regulation model is about culture and management systems that produce consistent outcomes, and I think the One Call or the One Click strategy we have now with the proposed regulatory change is in that direction. People will want to follow our lead as opposed to fearing the consequences of not being compliant with our requirements.
Senator Wallace: Realistically, going forward, is a One Click system likely to be preferable to a One Call, or do you see both of them applying?
Mr. Caron: We will not have the placebo if we get one or the other. The path we are following now leads to success, and if we find it is not as successful as we were hoping, it might be a future case in front of the CRTC for 811 would work, or something equivalent.
I have no reason to believe this course of action will not succeed; otherwise I would be morally obliged to tell you today that I am nervous about where we are going, and I'm not.
Senator Ringuette: I will lead on from Senator Wallace's last question. Because there is a human danger and a potentially high cost in not moving forward on preventive measures, have you had discussions with the CRTC for them to try to implement the same kind of rules for membership obligations? Have you had a discussion with them in that regard?
Mr. Caron: Senator, we have treated the CRTC with the respect they deserve as a body like ours, independent and, I believe, quasi-judicial. We have participated in a process that led to an application and their decision with reasons. I totally respect the outcome. To the best of my knowledge, we have not had private conversations with CRTC staff to see how we could make a better case to proceed. We would not do that as a matter of style of communication with a quasi-judicial body like the CRTC. We give it our best shot in terms of a formal process of application. We got their decision with reasons. We respect that and will move forward with a different strategy that we believe will be as good if not superior in terms of outcome.
Senator Ringuette: We've had before this committee, a number of months ago on another study, a person who qualified himself as a whistle-blower. He had provided some information to your office. Would you foresee that down the road the One Call system could also include a call from whistle-blowers with regard to wrongdoing?
Mr. Caron: Absolutely, senator. Our policy is clear: We welcome the contribution of every Canadian, people who feel that something is not attended to in their conscience. If someone feels that someone is digging without calling and has attempted to contact the company and the company turns a blind eye out of carelessness or lack of culture, then NEB would welcome a call or an email, anonymous or otherwise, from a Canadian telling us that we may want to look into the matter. In the last case, we listened to the individual and issued a public audit report a few weeks ago that confirmed he made a good point with the company. The company has agreed to improve its methods. As a result, good things have happened thanks to the whistle-blower.
Senator Ringuette: In the meantime, he lost his job; but that's another issue.
Are you a member of the current One Call system?
Mr. Caron: Yes, we are the federal regulatory champion of the Canadian Common Ground Alliance. We have been asked and have been agreeable, so we play the role of federal champion of the whole thing.
Senator Ringuette: From my knowledge, Europe probably has the greatest number of pipelines and greatest density of population in a geography that has to accommodate those pipelines and the technological infrastructure.
Does the U.S. have a similar process to our Call Before You Dig or do they have another mechanism to deal with the issue that we are looking at?
Mr. Caron: You have given me a chance to make a third undertaking for Ms. Gordon as I don't know the answer; but I'm sure we have people at the NEB who know to some extent what the U.S. is doing. Through Ms. Gordon, the Clerk of the Committee, you will get the answer soon; and I am interested in the answer, too.
Senator Tkachuk: As a follow-up to Senator Boisvenu's line of questioning on the number of accidents caused, you said that under your jurisdiction, 50 per cent were by individuals digging, or something like that, and the other 50 per cent were by pipeline companies where something was wrong with the pipeline or there was a problem somewhere.
I know you had the conference in Calgary, but what motivation would there be for a pipeline company to not have a safety culture? This would be intriguing because you separated the question of safety and the question of profits. Having a pipeline break hurts a pipeline company's profits, stock price and property. It costs a ton of money. What excuse would they have for not having these protections for a pipeline?
Mr. Caron: This is a profound question that goes to the root of the issue of safety culture. The CEO might believe that she is committed to safety, but the frontline worker is not so sure. If you read the public report of the Gulf of Mexico blowout, you will see accounts of people on the platform concerned about smells, processes, vibrations and instabilities; but they did not speak up. They were tired and they knew the company was in a hurry to get to a different drilling site. They assumed someone else would say something, and they died because they didn't do what they were supposed to do. The difference is not whether the company will embrace safety, at least as important as profits or revenues, but whether people believe it to be the case at the front line.
I would assume that many CEOs assume that safety is the number one issue in their company and the message diminishes through the ranks of the senior VPs, directors, team leaders and employees. That's what we see all the time. Major incidents are rare but they have high consequences. The public reports on major industrial accidents reveal depressingly similar root causes.
Senator Tkachuk: At the conference, did the companies address this issue? It seems to be totally opposite to what a pipeline company would be doing by not making sure that the pipeline is safe so that the product is carried because they get paid for the product they carry.
Mr. Caron: I agree with you that it's counterintuitive, but the facts are there when you read the reports on the investigations. They say the same thing.
Senator Tkachuk: For individuals, it's just ignorance. You think nothing will happen to you.
Mr. Caron: I don't think it's ignorance. I would not say so, senator.
Senator Tkachuk: For a third party.
Mr. Caron: Maybe for a third party digging.
Senator Tkachuk: People think nothing will happen to them. They put the thing down and boom; and the consequences are death. It's a problem.
Mr. Caron: You need to ask yourself what this ignorance is based upon. The pipeline company ought to have an information and education program to reach as many people as possible as to the importance of Click Before You Dig.
Senator Tkachuk: Some of it is self-evident. You have natural gas running to your house, power running to your house and a sewer line running to your house. How dumb do you have to be to understand that there are pipes running into your house? It's even more than that: It's human nature and accidents will happen and things like that.
Mr. Caron: I agree, senator.
The Chair: We're just about out of time here and we have three people who want to go a second round. I will ask them to ask their questions fairly succinctly, then maybe Mr. Caron can answer in that order; and we can wrap up.
Senator Mitchell: Thank you, it has been very good. My question relates to social licence. For example, most recently Premier Brad Wall was in the U.S. talking about the need to up our game a bit to get that. Would it not be the case, and maybe this is just a rhetorical question, that if we could demonstrate to Canadians and the world that we had a really solid One Call accident prevention system people would have more confidence in the security of their pipeline oil and other infrastructure transportation?
[Translation]
Senator Massicotte: You described the One-call Centre as a broker. But if it ever becomes operational, since it is just a broker, what will happen when someone calls? Who calls the city or the backhoe operator as far as the sewer system or water goes? Does the person have to call the power company or gas company separately? Does the person have to make eight different phone calls? That defeats the purpose.
[English]
Senator Seidman: One of the nice things about this committee is that we're environmentally respectful, so we all have tablets and we try to function on our tablets. I did do the ``Welcome to Click Before You Dig'' portal, and I have to tell you that I clicked on every province and territory listed here, and there are seven that do not have a One Call system. It says ``Contact facility owners directly in this area,'' and there are six that indeed have One Call systems.
Thank you. It's a great site.
Mr. Caron: I agree with Senator Mitchell. Social licence comes with strong systems. I agree with what you said. It also comes with the fact that there is a strong safety watchdog, supported by Parliament, called the National Energy Board, to whom you give additional monies for audits and inspections. This is part and parcel of the same. Public institutions and compliant companies, Senator Mitchell, bring confidence that the nation is on top of the safety of Canadians and their environment.
[Translation]
On the issue of the One-call Centre being a broker, if I am an excavator, I go on the Click before you dig website and I find out about the various companies with infrastructure on the site in question. Those companies get in direct contact with the person who clicked initially. The broker does all of that, senator. It connects the person to the electric company, the gas company, the steam company and so forth, and the report will indicate that that was done.
Senator Massicotte: Just to make sure I understand correctly, I either call or click and the centre will make sure that the utility companies call me back? I may have to deal with seven or eight companies. Do I wait on the line while they transfer my call to one company after another?
Mr. Caron: That is a fourth answer I will have to send the clerk in writing. I will provide the committee with the protocol, showing how the system works. It will contain that information specifically.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Massicotte. Those are very good questions, sir.
Thank you, Mr. Caron, for being here. I have always enjoyed, at least for the length of time I've been here, your presentations. We wish you well after your 35 years. I think you said that you're retiring in June.
Mr. Caron: June 6, at 5 p.m.
The Chair: We will miss you, but we may call on your expertise again, even though you won't be head of the NEB. We appreciate all the things you have done. Thank you very much.
Honourable senators, I need a motion to adopt our report, subject to the chair being authorized to submit the application to the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration, and that the steering committee be empowered to approve the final version of it when it comes.
I have that motion from Senator MacDonald.
Thank you, everyone. We are adjourned.
(The committee adjourned.)