THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Thursday, October 5, 2017
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade met this day in public at 10:33 a.m. to study foreign relations and international trade generally (topic: geopolitical dynamics in Asia); and in camera, for the consideration of a draft agenda.
Senator A. Raynell Andreychuk (Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade is meeting this morning under our general order. We are authorized to examine such issues as may arise from time to time relating to foreign relations and international trade generally.
Under this mandate, the committee has invited the next witnesses to give committee members a briefing on the key geopolitical dynamics and players in Asia and their implications for Canadian regional interests and ties.
As you recall, some members wanted to receive more broad and general information from a Canadian perspective, so we are looking at issues that arise in the sub-regions of South Asia, Southeast Asia and East Asia. The committee members also have a particular interest in the foreign policy and commercial priorities of such regional powers as Russia, China and India.
I’m pleased that we received a very quick response from Global Affairs Canada to come and assist us in this update. We’re not going to take anymore time because we want to be efficient, hear your statements and allow for questions.
I’m very pleased that we have four very capable people from Global Affairs Canada to assist us today. Among them is Mr. Don Bobiash, Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia Pacific. Those of us who were part of the study of East Asia had the opportunity to be hosted by Mr. Bobiash. We certainly appreciated the program. It was long, intense and very valuable. We do recollect that and thank you for that on the record.
Mr. Ian Burchett, Director General, Southeast Asia is also here before us, along with Ms. Sarah Taylor, Director General, North Asia and Oceania and Mr. David Hartman, Director General, South Asia.
Welcome to the committee. Mr. Bobiash, I understand you have an opening statement and then we will allow senators to ask whatever questions that are of concern to them in the area. Welcome to the committee. The floor is yours.
Don Bobiash, Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia Pacific, Global Affairs Canada: It is an honour and a pleasure to be here. I have had the pleasure of meeting a number of you in previous encounters so I look forward to this morning. Thank you for the opportunity to speak today about what I think is one of the most dynamic and interesting regions of the world.
[Translation]
I would like to speak to you about some long-term trends we are witnessing in Asia, and Canada’s long-standing interest in being part of the picture.
[English]
What is happening in Asia affects us deeply. We are witnesses to rising growth across the region, plummeting poverty levels and a growing middle class. Asia, with China and India at the centre, is already setting the global agenda now more so than ever before. These changes have important implications for Canada.
Canada is an Asia-Pacific country and our connections, economic and people to people, continue to grow. These connections build on strong historical links.
[Translation]
The first export from Canada to China was ginseng in 1716, and the first Chinese settlers came to Canada later that century in 1788. Our first diplomat was sent to Australia in 1895 — already more than 120 years ago.
[English]
Today our peoples and their economies are increasingly entwined. Chinese in all its dialects is the most commonly spoken non-official in Canada. The Philippines is the most common country of origin for new Canadians and almost 50 per cent of container traffic to and from the Port of Halifax is with Asia. These links are part of a growing Asian footprint across the planet.
Across Asia we are seeing astonishing rates of growth. The rate of growth in Asia exceeds that of most other regions in the world. China’s rate of growth was 6.7 per cent last year; India’s was 6.8 per cent; and the combined growth rate of the 10 countries of ASEAN was 4.5 per cent.
[Translation]
In many — but not all — parts of the region, we are seeing dropping poverty rates. In 2002, in South Asia, there were more than 550 million people living below the $1.90 a day poverty line; more than 10 years later, that number had halved even as the population continued to grow.
[English]
We have also seen some progress against inequality. The income of the poorest 40 per cent of the population in China, Thailand, Vietnam and Indonesia is growing faster than the rest of the population. Indeed, today China and India have millions in the middle class. By 2022, it is projected that some 76 per cent of Chinese urban consumers will be in the middle class. In 2000, only 4 per cent met that mark. Asia’s global sway is growing in all the world’s multilateral organizations and global venues.
I will speak for a minute about China. As the committee knows, China is at the centre of many of the changes in the continent.
[Translation]
As the committee rightly emphasizes, China is at the centre of many of these changes.
[English]
For example, China’s recent belt and road initiative has attracted global attention. This model is based on a China-centric hub-and-spoke system of economic flows supported by an integrated network of infrastructure, industrial clusters and free trade zones along land and sea corridors that span Asia, the Middle East, East Africa and Europe. Canada was represented by Parliamentary Secretary Pamela Goldsmith-Jones at the May 14 and 15 Belt and Road Forum in Beijing, where the Chinese government promoted the international implementation of this initiative.
This new silk road is being built as China switches from an export-led model to one focused more on domestic consumption, and these shifts present exciting new opportunities for Canadians.
As you already know, the Prime Minister has mandated the Minister of International Trade to increase Canada’s trade and trade links with China. Canada has been active in maintaining an open dialogue with China. Canada organized two back-to-back leaders’ visits in 2016 and supported a raft of Governor General, ministerial, provincial and mayoral visits to China.
We believe that dialogue is the only way to strengthen economic ties and the only way we can create a shared understanding of what are at times difficult political, security and human rights issues. We are thus investing additional diplomatic capital in new bilateral mechanisms to talk about foreign policy and the rule of law, as well as our economic relationship.
However, China is not the whole of Asia. With India set to become the world’s fifth largest economy and second most populous nation in the next five years, it is playing an increasing role in the region and beyond. Its potential is real. With per capita income a fifth of China’s and with a number of poor in the millions, India needs to create jobs for its young population, diversify its energy sources, improve food security, address its infrastructure deficit and more.
At the same time, India is now the world’s fastest growing major economy and shares with Canada a deep commitment to a rules-based global order, democratic principles and the capacity to work in a complex federation. It is no surprise that Canada is also pursuing a range of investment, trade and other agreements with India.
[Translation]
After China, India likely offers the greatest potential for increased sales of Canadian goods and services over the next 10 years.
[English]
I would now talk about the tragic crisis in Myanmar. In Asia the most critical security and humanitarian crisis is being witnessed in Myanmar. On Monday, I had the privilege of speaking to the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights and some of you present this morning about the situation.
Since August 25, 2017, there have been more than half a million Rohingya fleeing from Myanmar into neighbouring Bangladesh. Global Affairs Canada remains deeply concerned by the current crisis Rakhine State, the violence and the massive displacement of these vulnerable people.
The Prime Minister has conveyed his deep concerns over the situation in Rakhine State during a phone call with State Counsellor Aung San Suu Kyi on September 13. During the call, the Prime Minister emphasized the urgent need for Myanmar’s military and civilian leaders to take a strong stand in ending the violence, protecting civilians and allowing unimpeded access for United Nations and international humanitarian actors.
The Government of Canada has also been working closely with members of the international community. Over the last three weeks, the Minister of Foreign Affairs has spoken with many of her counterparts and key influences in the region, including Norway, Sweden, Bangladesh, Germany, the EU and the U.S., as well as with Kofi Annan. In the call with her Bangladeshi counterpart, Minister Freeland thanked the government of Bangladesh for hosting all arrivals seeking asylum.
Yesterday, the Honourable Marie-Claude Bibeau, Minister of International Development and La Francophonie, announced an additional $3 million in funding to help address the humanitarian crisis in Myanmar’s northern Rakhine State and its impacts on neighbouring Bangladesh. These new Canadian funds will help respond to the appeal by the United Nations and International Committee of the Red Cross for additional aid. To date in 2017, Canada has provided $12.18 million in humanitarian assistance funding to partners in Myanmar and Bangladesh to meet the needs of this crisis.
I will now talk for a minute about ASEAN, the Association of Southeast Asian Nations. ASEAN members include the regional powerhouses of Vietnam and Indonesia, the Asian economic hub of Singapore, the Philippines, but also smaller and poorer states such as Laos and Cambodia. As the influential centre of Asian soft power, ASEAN plays an important role in maintaining peace, prosperity and security.
Recognizing this role, Canada has deployed new resources to increase our engagement with this region. Canada now has a dedicated ambassador to ASEAN, diplomatic representation in all 10 ASEAN countries, and long-term development and economic programming. Canada is actively seeking membership in the ASEAN defence ministers meeting-plus and membership in the ASEAN-chaired East Asia Summit.
As part of Canada’s increased engagement, I chaired the Canada-ASEAN senior officials meeting in Ottawa in May, followed by participation in Canadian officials in the Canada-ASEAN senior economic officials meeting in the Philippines in July. In August, Minister Freeland attended the ASEAN-Canada post-ministerial conference and the ASEAN regional foreign ministerial meeting in Manilla to promote regional cooperation and stability to multilateral institutions. During the visit, she announced on behalf of the honourable Marie-Claude Bibeau that Canada will be providing $10 million over five years for post-secondary students and mid-career professionals from Southeast Asia to access education in Canada. The scholarships and educational exchanges for development initiatives will provide individuals from ASEAN member states, especially women, the opportunity to apply for short-term studies or research in Canada.
During Canada’s consultations with ASEAN ministers in Manilla last month, Parliamentary Secretary Pamela Goldsmith-Jones and her counterparts jointly announced the launch of exploratory discussions to examine a possible Canada-ASEAN free trade agreement. They also agreed to complete a joint in-depth FTA feasibility study.
APEC, the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum, plays another crucial role in the region.
[Translation]
Canada was a founding member in 1989, and since then has helped advance its overarching goal of regional economic integration.
[English]
Our Prime Minister and ministers attend every year to advance more open trade and investment, including recent emphasis on economic empowerment of women and indigenous peoples.
As APEC host for 2017, Vietnam has chosen the theme “Creating New Dynamism, Fostering a Shared Future.” Strongly supported by Canada, the four progressive priorities are: one, promoting sustainable, innovative and inclusive growth; two, deepening regional economic integration; three, strengthening the competitiveness and innovation of micro, small and medium enterprises in the digital age; and four, enhancing food security and sustainable agriculture.
I have touched upon some of the dynamics of particular interest to the committee, but I also want to note the relationships we have in other parts of Asia that shape Canada’s presence and potential. Japan is our fourth largest trading partner, a key research partner in science and technology, and a fellow member of the G7. South Korea, with whom we share a highly successful free trade agreement, is our seventh largest trade partner, growing in trade and research cooperation.
[Translation]
Australia and New Zealand are long-standing allies and trading partners, and we continue our close economic, political, and security ties.
[English]
Canada also has important development programming across Asia, totalling $1.1 billion in 2015-16 and including major programs in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Vietnam, among others. We also have diplomatic efforts under way to support peace, human rights and democratic governance wherever we are able.
On the trading side, we have growing economic relationship, not only with the major powers but also with countries that are seeking to escape poverty through economic development. It is interesting to note that Canada’s trade with Bangladesh has more than doubled in the last decade. We now export more to Bangladesh than to most EU countries.
There is a similar story with Pakistan. Over the last three years, Pakistan has been one of Canada’s fastest growing markets for Canadian exports. The volume of our trade with Cambodia shows a parallel trend. At $1.2 billion per year, it is now greater than with our long-term partner New Zealand.
[Translation]
Let me conclude where I began: Asia’s economic potential, political stability, and sustainable development matters to Canada.
[English]
It matters because we see in Asia the potential for global economic health and prosperity, including new jobs and expanded trade for Canadians. It matters because gains toward prosperity and peace in Asia contribute toward the 17 goals of the 2030 agenda for sustainable development.
[Translation]
It matters because Canada is home — and will be home — to a growing number of new Canadians who trace their origins to this vast and complex part of the world.
[English]
It has been an honour to present this morning, and I look forward to answering your questions.
The Chair: Thank you. You certainly have covered a lot of ground.
Senator Woo: Thank you. I want to start by recognizing and thanking the four of you, not just for being here today but for a career’s worth of dedication to foreign affairs, with a particular focus on Asia. I know you have worked on many parts of Asia over many years and done a great deal to promote Canada’s interests in that region.
ADM Bobiash, you have made a persuasive case for the importance of Asia in the world and the importance of Asia for Canada. I was particularly struck by your comment that we export more to Bangladesh than we do to most EU countries.
Clearly the weight of Asia in terms of its impact on Canada is very large, but there is a perception that the objective weight in Canada’s priorities is not translated into governmental priorities when it comes to Asia vis-à-vis the world.
I recall Minister Freeland’s landmark speech in Parliament a few months ago, before the summer, where she articulated kind of a manifesto for Canada’s foreign policy. It was very thoughtful and generally very well received around the world, but there was a sense that Asia was neglected in that speech. It didn’t come out very strongly. In fact, I’m not sure if it was mentioned at all, or perhaps once or twice at the most.
My question to you, Mr. Bobiash and others if you wish to comment, is how is the government and GAC — or if you care to comment on the whole of government — how is this sense of the importance of Asia for the world and for Canada being translated into government priorities at the departmental level, at the agency level, and across the whole machinery of government so that it becomes intrinsic and part of our second nature rather than part of the rhetoric?
Mr. Bobiash: I would like to answer that question through a number of angles. One, in some respects I think deeds speak louder than words. When you look at our relationship with key organizations such as ASEAN, I can give you a long list of specific initiatives the government has taken over the past years to raise our profile with that region.
I mentioned some in my speech. We now have a dedicated ambassador to that organization. We have new diplomatic resources. We have announced a new scholarship program. We are looking at a possible free trade agreement with the region. These are practical things in the field and on the ground that we are delivering with ASEAN.
In the case of China, in follow up to the visit of Prime Minister Trudeau in 2016, there has been a host of new Canada-China bilateral mechanisms which have been established across a range of areas in economics and finance, development and good governance, and a number of other areas as well.
Although it may not get a lot of media attention, the government is taking concrete steps in the key relationships and regional organizations to elevate our presence in the region.
On the China side, perhaps I will ask my colleague Ms. Taylor to give a longer list of the initiatives that we are taking because this is really a key relationship.
Sarah Taylor, Director General, North Asia and Oceania, Global Affairs Canada: As you know, the government has a new engagement policy toward China. That is translated, as Mr. Bobiash mentioned, into a series of new bilateral mechanisms from the top downward, starting with an annual leaders dialogue. The launch of that new mechanism was the visit of Premier Keqiang Li to Canada last fall. That has allowed us to have a very wide range of interactions. We continue to develop and expand those mechanisms.
In addition to some of the existing dialogues we have among foreign ministers, environment ministers, the Minister of International Trade and the Minister of Finance, the national security adviser, with Chinese counterparts, we are now looking at new areas to expand further mechanisms, deepening the bilateral mechanism on health, looking at culture and so on.
It is a very wide range of activities. As members of the committee may be aware, we are just coming out of exploratory discussions around possible free trade negotiations with China. That will require a cabinet decision on what the next steps will be, but I think already those exploratory discussions have been very fruitful in terms of being able to explore on two sides the interests and possibilities for expanded trade.
We’re also going forward with a number of other initiatives that are being launched in coming years. Particularly, next year, 2018, will be Canada-China’s year of tourism. You were asking how that translates in practical terms. In very practical terms, our colleagues from Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada have expanded their network of visa application centres that allow Chinese citizens to apply locally for visas to Canada. They have expanded that network by opening seven new visa application centres this year. We are already seeing that translate into a significant increase in the number of Chinese tourists coming to Canada. We hope yet more in 2018 as we mark that year.
Those are just a few examples. There are a lot of others. I can go on at great length, but I will spare you. There is a great deal of activity in terms of expanding and deepening our relationship with China.
Mr. Bobiash: I wanted to add another observation. As we move forward, one of the most important areas will be expanding links with youth in Asia, especially through expanded educational cooperation. The impact of Asian students in Canada has been tremendous over the last decade.
There are now over 140,000 students from the PRC alone in Canada. At the University of Toronto there are 10,000 students from China. I think these are amazing figures. We have had reports from our visa sections in our missions in New Delhi that they are overwhelmed with the dramatic increase in demand for educational visas for students from that country.
We are really taking a hard look at education. I think youth is one of the themes moving forward as we move to the next generation of relations with Asia.
Senator Woo: If I could follow up by asking a question about the simple metric, if you will, of how much priority we are giving to Asia within Global Affairs Canada, can you give a sense of the resources allocated to Asia-related work within the department relative to the rest of the world, such as the Americas and the EU?
You have already mentioned that Asia as an export market in many ways is becoming more important than most EU countries. This is not to denigrate any part of the world, but it’s about aligning our resources with the priorities for our country. Give us a sense of how that is being played out within the department.
Mr. Bobiash: I think that is being played out in a number of ways. One is that we have increased, for example, our trade presence in China significantly over the last decade. We now have 10 trade offices in a number of cities in China, which didn’t exist before. As I mentioned, we have increased our diplomatic presence in the ASEAN region and with the ASEAN organization. We’re having a greater focus in the department on what we call Asian competencies, things like Asian language training, et cetera.
There has been a shift toward Asia. It is obviously a world constrained by direct budget considerations, et cetera, but Asia has I think received more resources in a number of areas over the last few years.
Senator Woo: Could I ask, to the extent possible, for an approximation of the financial resources allocated to the various geographic branches as a rough measure of how the department is allocating its resources vis-à-vis priorities?
Mr. Bobiash: I don’t have those figures in front of me, but I can perhaps give a written response to you to follow up.
The Chair: I think that would be helpful. We are talking about Global Affairs, I take it. Perhaps personnel as well as budget will be helpful, bearing in mind that we know activity on the international stage is played out through other ministries also.
We’ll just put that on the record, but we will focus on Global Affairs.
Senator Ataullahjan: Thank you for your presentation.
I have a couple of questions. One is about the China-Pakistan corridor. Most people view that as a game changer. I don’t know how many billion dollars it is, as the number has gone up, but it is interesting that some people were dismayed that they were seeing signs in Chinese going up along the highway. Recently when they had a crisis, China sent in garbage collectors to pick up the garbage in Karachi. How involved is China going to be in Pakistan?
I know Pakistan is known for terrorism, but if you look at the reports from Bloomberg last year, they were saying it is one of the most underrated economies. Past winners have been Germany and the Philippines.
The U.S. keeps talking about redefining its relationship with Pakistan. One day it’s positive and the next day it’s negative. We had heard that they were going to sort of cut their alliances with Pakistan, yet the Pakistan foreign minister was in Washington last week. Positive news releases have come out of that.
I’m very confused. I know there are changing alliances. The only thing that hasn’t changed is the friendship between China and Pakistan. That, if anything, is very, very strong.
What is happening? Pakistan’s acting foreign minister Sartaj Aziz last year spoke in London. He said that the biggest mistake he thinks Pakistan made when the nation was formed was to align themselves with the U.S. How do you look at that statement?
Mr. Bobiash: There are a number of questions there, but let me try answering different aspects.
First of all, with regard to Mr. Sartaj Aziz, the acting foreign minister for Pakistan, I was actually in Pakistan a few months ago and was privileged to have a meeting with him.
During the course of the conversation, which was very warm, he mentioned that he had worked with Lester Pearson in the early 1970s. Lester Pearson did a major study of foreign aid for the World Bank and Mr. Aziz was one of the research economists. I was thinking there are not many people in the world who can say they’ve worked with Lester Pearson these days, but he certainly did.
All this to say that Canada has had a very close historic relationship with Pakistan. Since its independence, we have been one of its most important development partners. People in Pakistan are all aware of Canada’s contribution to the country. There is an important dam called the Warsak Dam which was funded by Canada. It is very important for electricity and other development in Pakistan. We have had a very close and warm relationship over the years.
China has become incredibly influential in the country. This is nothing new. This has been going on for a number of decades now. I was recently in Pakistan and really did note, as the senator is referring to, the influence of China, especially in terms of building infrastructure projects. There is a major port which is going to be constructed. China is also investing in rail lines and other areas of transportation. They do have a strong influence in the country.
Obviously I think this is part of the traditional counterbalance with regard to Chinese and Indian rivalry historically. This has been part of that as well.
With regard to the United States new position on Pakistan, it is obviously taking a hard line as a result of its anti-terrorist efforts and campaign, but I don’t really see that affecting bilateral Canada-Pakistan relations at this time.
Senator Ataullahjan: I have a question on Afghanistan. I know that every time anything happens in Afghanistan, Pakistan gets blamed. I know the intelligence agencies must have had a hand in what was happening, but the war in Afghanistan was not a war that Pakistan asked for. It was forced upon them because of their geographic position.
Afghanistan is getting ready for elections. We have Ashraf Ghani. I don’t want to say anything, but we saw the kind of leader he was. Now we have Gulbuddin Hekmatyar who is back, and that really worries me. Just reading between the lines, he is probably going to run to be president of Afghanistan, as is Abdullah Abdullah, as is Ashraf Ghani, as are a lot of other players.
How do you see the re-entry of Gulbuddin Hekmatyar back into the politics of Afghanistan?
Mr. Bobiash: That’s a very interesting question.
My first diplomatic posting was Pakistan was in the early 1990s. I had the opportunity of meeting many of the Mujahideen leaders at the time, but not Mr. Hekmatyar, I’m afraid.
This is an issue that Canada has studied very carefully because the relationship between Afghanistan and Pakistan is key for peace in the region. When I visited Afghanistan a few months ago, there was actually a delegation of Pakistani parliamentarians and a delegation from the Pakistani military visiting their counterparts in Afghanistan.
I mention this to underline that the Afghan government understands how important getting the relationship with Pakistan right is for its future. They are trying, through various back channels and other negotiations, to improve that relationship, which I think is a positive sign.
Second, and this hasn’t received a lot of media coverage in Canada, the Government of Afghanistan has launched an Afghan-led peace process called the Kabul process. This is a very positive development. In fact, there are Canadian representatives at a meeting in Kabul today to talk about Afghan development and Canada’s contribution.
All this to say that the relationship between Afghanistan and Pakistan is something important for Canada. It is something which we monitor very carefully, but over the last few months there have actually been positive developments in that respect.
Senator Bovey: This has been really interesting and I thank you very much. Perhaps what I have to say is more of a comment and maybe a question.
I’m really glad to see the emphasis on youth and on university exchanges. I’ve witnessed that over the last number of years. It has been really encouraging to see the growth of particularly Chinese students in Canadian universities. I know they’re learning a lot, but I also know they’re making a significant contribution to research in Canada and to the depth and breadth of what our universities are doing.
I was also really interested, Ms. Taylor, to hear you talk about the expansion of topics for bilateral discussions. Nobody around this table is going to be surprised what I will say, particularly when you mentioned culture.
Just last month a large delegation of museum professionals went to China. They invited me to be a part of it and I’m sorry I couldn’t go. I gather an agreement was struck between the museum sector in China and the museum sector in Canada. We can be expected to welcome a large delegation of Chinese museologists to the Canadian Museums Association conference in Vancouver next April. I’m delighted to see all this and I know our institutions have been involved in cultural exchanges and artist exchanges over many years.
I would be interested to know what is Global Affairs role in encouraging these discussions and exchanges between various parts of societal sectors, be they universities or culture. Are you aware of them all? Are you part of them all? I guess I’m just looking. What is the groundwork?
I was at a meeting yesterday where I was asked this question. I didn’t realize I could pass it on quite so quickly.
Mr. Bobiash: Academic and cultural relations are a very important part of our relations with Asia in general. I’ve mentioned our new scholarship program for the ASEAN region. Some of your questions were specific to China.
Senator Bovey: I was in discussions about that in Victoria just yesterday, so it’s top of mind.
Mr. Bobiash: Culture is an important part of our attempts to expand our relationship with China. I will ask Sarah Taylor, our director general for China, to expand on some of these developments.
Ms. Taylor: You were asking if we aware of everything that is going on. I’m sure we’re not. There’s always so much happening in China. A big part of our job is trying to keep the sense of the many different aspects of the relationship.
I would say from our perspective that there are a number of entry points into this aspect of the relationship which is growing and very important, including in areas like the one you cited of exchanges in the museum sector, in part because there has been a huge growth in the infrastructure of museums and cultural venues in China in recent years.
China now has very large numbers of new museums, theatres and concert halls, but is very often looking for content to fill them. There’s a bit of natural synergy there with Canada, including in the museum sector where we have a very strong track record.
Obviously the lead in terms of a lot of these exchanges lies with Heritage Canada. We are very supportive of the work of Heritage Canada. Minister Joly was in China earlier this year. Other colleagues and I briefed her before she went, and then, of course, our embassy and our missions in China supported her visit.
I would say our entry points are in part in our discussions with colleagues at Heritage Canada here and also with cultural institutions, but then also our missions on the ground are very engaged.
We have a very active public diplomacy section in our embassy in Beijing and in the other missions around the China network. They’ve worked in a number of sectors. They do some of the enabling work. For example, we have a relatively recently signed film co-production agreement with China. We are working on a television co-production agreement. Government-to-government infrastructure allows for the exchanges and supports some of the institutional links. For example, TIFF, the Toronto International Film Festival, has ongoing and useful linkages with the Beijing International Film Festival. We’re supportive of activities like that and events like tours by Canadian authors.
Our missions have some funds. We have something called the post-initiative funds that allow missions to bring in Canadian cultural figures. We work on some pieces of it but we recognize it is a very wide-ranging area of activity.
Senator Bovey: Likewise, I’m well aware of rich relations between Canada and Japan in terms of the cultural sector. I’m also aware of some ongoing television programming developments in India right now between the British government and British agencies. I’ve found kind of interesting to see where we are to fit in some of these new gates that have opened.
My other country is Vietnam in terms of university, youth and cultural exchanges. Can I presume Vietnamese-Canadian relations are growing in those sectors as well?
Ian Burchett, Director General, Southeast Asia, Global Affairs Canada: Absolutely, senator. We’re very pleased by the growing people-to-people ties between Canada and Vietnam. This year, as you know, Vietnam will host the APEC meeting in Da Nang in November. That will contribute to a great deal of discussions on the multilateral front.
A growing number of Vietnamese students are choosing Canada as a place to study. Likewise, more and more small and medium size enterprises are looking to Vietnam for the emerging economic opportunities. That is certainly an area where we continue to have growth in the support they get from our embassies in Hanoi and the consulate general in Ho Chi Minh City.
Senator Marwah: Thank you again, Mr. Bobiash. That was a very useful and informative introduction to the Asia-Pacific region.
I have a question on India. I have been hearing about the free trade agreements, trade agreements or call it what you may. The trade agreements with India are of a much more expanded scale going back. I started working on it in my previous life in financial institutions some seven or eight years ago, but it never seems to get enough traction in general.
With the decidedly pro-business agenda of the Modi government, as you noted in your comments about the emergence of India as an economic powerhouse, I would imagine it would be in our interest to proceed with something more aggressively on that front. Is it a priority for us? Is it not? Are there any particular roadblocks on that front?
Mr. Bobiash: Our Minister of International Trade, Minister Champagne, has met with his Indian counterpart and tried to push the progress in the negotiations for a free trade agreement. He has tried to accelerate the momentum for a FIPA, a foreign investment protection agreement, which has been in negotiations for almost over 10 years now. To be frank, trade negotiations are a slow process, but it is a political priority for the government and it is something messaged by the Minister of International Trade.
Senator Marwah: Do you feel that same interest is being reciprocated by the Indian government, or is Canada not in their priority range?
Mr. Bobiash: I think we are. Our Prime Minister had a phone call about three weeks ago and certainly these elements of the relationship were mentioned and promoted.
[Translation]
Senator Saint-Germain: I would like to bring you to the issue of security. Clearly, the economic and trade potential of cooperating with Southeast Asian countries — China and India in particular — is tremendous and exponential.
However, with trade and relationships come various security issues or risks, be it cybersecurity, financial security, human rights, maritime law in general or protection of the territory. To its great regret, Canada is no longer a member of the United Nations Security Council, and I salute your efforts to have it rejoin. I am also talking about your internal relationships with other government actors, including the national security advisor that Ms. Taylor mentioned.
Our meeting is currently being broadcast. I understand that there are things you may not be able to tell us. However, I would like to hear you talk about your priorities, the challenges and your management of these national security issues related to our relationships. These issues may have a negative impact on the quality of Canada’s trade and economic relationships, including for its companies and the public, and for Southeast Asia.
Ms. Taylor: I could answer, especially with respect to my region, which includes a number of countries where security plays a very important role. I’m talking about China, of course, and North Korea, as well as countries with which we work very closely, but more as an ally, like Australia, New Zealand and Japan.
Perhaps my colleagues would like to talk about other security issues posed by Afghanistan and Pakistan.
As far as China is concerned, it is a very complex relationship that has several different aspects. Therefore, we must always discuss a wide range of topics with open eyes. For example, with national security, we have a dialogue with China on national security, governance and law. Under this banner, we have several working groups that discuss law, crime, immigration, including illegal immigration, and so on, with their Chinese counterparts.
A number of issues arise in this series of dialogues. Another example would be drug problems when we’re discussing crime. A certain amount of fentanyl found on the streets in major Canadian cities, to our great detriment, comes from China. I know there is a very close dialogue between the RCMP and its Chinese counterparts on this.
We discuss human rights issues a great deal with China at several levels, with the prime minister, of course, but also more extensively with our respective foreign affairs ministers.
Senator Saint-Germain: In trade-related issues and bilateral discussions, do you have any discussions about counterfeiting, the presence in Canada of products that do not respect, in particular, production rights or copyrights? Has this issue been specifically addressed?
Ms. Taylor: Yes, absolutely. In fact, we have had this initial dialogue on the possibility of a free-trade agreement. As such, we have had discussions not only with our Chinese counterparts, but also with a large number of Canadian companies and citizens. There is a lot of discussion, on the commercial side, on aspects like counterfeiting and computer security. Human rights issues have also been raised. These are certainly issues that will be taken into account in these discussions and in a future decision on the possibility of negotiating a free-trade agreement.
However, with or without an agreement, in our regular trade relations with China and our commitment to it, we must strike a balance between promoting trade — because we see a lot of opportunity — and the risks, and we are well aware of that. We have put in place some measures, such as export controls on certain goods, that allow us to manage that kind of risk.
Very briefly, I would add that the other major security issue in the region is, of course, North Korea, where we have engaged with allies in a very dynamic way, and where we have implemented a wide range of sanctions.
Senator Saint-Germain: I would have one last supplementary question, Madam Chair.
[English]
The Chair: I will put you on the second round.
Senator Gold: I’m glad that my colleague Senator Saint-Germain opened up the question beyond trade and that your responses touched upon human rights.
Trade and commerce are really important for Canadians and for the residents of all the countries with whom you work. At the risk of sounding naive, I think Canada’s most important product is the Liberal democratic and rule of law values that underscore our system of government.
I confess to being very concerned about the challenges to the rule of law and Liberal democratic values that seem to be on the rise in the world, and not even so far from home. There was a time not so long ago when we thought that the Liberal democratic values were on the ascendency. I don’t think one can say that anymore.
There have been efforts bilaterally to raise these issues in all of the sectors where you work, but how can Canada be more effective in promoting the values of democracy, of rule of law and of human rights?
[Translation]
Allow me to ask if we are dreaming in technicolour.
[English]
Can we really do more than just raise them as we otherwise pursue the important economic interests that we in Canada have? Could you advise us on how we can do better at exporting our most important product?
Mr. Bobiash: Perhaps I can’t advise on how to do better, but I can describe what we are trying to do at the moment in the area of promotion of Canadian values and human rights throughout Asia.
Perhaps I could start off by describing what we are doing in countries such as Myanmar. It is a very good case study because it is a country with a poor human rights record. It is a country with decades of military rule, now more democratic.
As part of our Development Assistance Program we have put in place a number of different projects to promote a stronger respect for human rights and to promote better systems of governance to reinforce democracy in the country. We have an interesting project being funded to the tune of $5 million with the Canadian Forum of Federations to explain federalism to Myanmar influencers: what it means, what the values mean for Canadians, how it contributed to Canada’s development over many decades, and how it contributes to democracy by putting government closer to the people and respecting regional interests.
This spring a delegation came from Myanmar, which included ASSK, to meet with Canadian mayors, government officials, academics and civil society organizations to talk about federalism and how it relates to human rights and democratic participation, et cetera. These kinds of development assistance initiatives are a very good way to promote Canadian values in a very real way where it is needed in many Asian countries.
In the context of ASEAN, we have had a number of capacity-building projects to promote the rights of migrant labourers and the rights of women workers across the ASEAN region. This has been done through UN organizations, but I think our development assistance is perhaps one of our most effective vehicles to promote Canadian values in the region, especially in countries which do not have good human rights records.
Ms. Taylor: If I could just add very briefly, and particularly in relation to China, often the debate tends to be posed in terms of economic versus human rights, that if we pursue our economic interests it is at the expense of human rights.
I wanted to add a couple of points because I think that’s a mischaracterization of the situation. One the things we do in Global Affairs Canada is to engage with the community around corporate social responsibility. We are working with Canadian companies to encourage them to be the best possible actors and representatives of Canada that they can be abroad. That’s one aspect where the two aspects mesh.
Another thing I would say, particularly in a China context, is watching the evolution of rule of law within China. Obviously we still have many concerns, but one of things that have pushed the Chinese in a pragmatic way to improve their legal and judicial system are the requirements of a semi-market economy. Actually, one the greatest beneficiaries of an improved legal and judicial system in China, in practical terms from our perspective, have been Canadian companies that do business in China.
Canadian companies have a very strong interest in seeing improvements in rule of law and good governance in China, so that’s very much an integral part of any discussions around increasing our trade and our economic interaction. I think you can see the two much more as two shared aspects of the relationship as opposed to things that pull us in different directions.
The Chair: I still have two senators on the first round and I have three senators on the second. We were to have our witnesses for about an hour, so I think with the indulgence of the witnesses staying a little longer, I will put the last two senators on the list and perhaps those on the second round request can contemplate whether they need their questions put.
Senator Cools: I would like to thank the witnesses for their excellent testimony so far and to congratulate them for the kind and quality of work that they are doing in these regions of the world.
Colleagues, you know, I knew people who knew Dr. Norman Bethune. I had friends who were older than I am, and I am pretty old now. They knew him pretty well. Few Canadians know of the great impact he had in China and the great respect Chinese people still have for him.
I lived through a period of time when Mr. Trudeau was busy working to open relations with China. That was such a large and a significant thing at the time. I’m pleased and encouraged to see that you have been building constantly and perpetually on the groundwork that was laid down many years ago. I encourage you to pursue these directions that you have been pursuing because I think that they are indeed grateful.
I was thinking and wondering how and why it is that most Canadians have no idea of the fabulous work that you are doing and how can we make that known. For example, right here in Ottawa, I think about 10 years ago, we had a Chinese ambassador from China. I think his name was Lu Shumin. He was one of the very first students that came over in the exchange program back in the 1970s. That fact alone made him very amenable to speaking and meeting with members of Parliament and so on.
To my mind, the relationship with China has come far in a few years, really, when you know how difficult it is to build these stable relationships. I would really like for more young people to know, more Canadians to know, that you just don’t twiddle your thumbs and say, “We are ambassadors.” There is a steady program for building greater and greater affinity and trust. At the end of day, relationships will fall or build on trust.
Inside of that I don’t know if there was a question, but it doesn’t really matter. The program is moving ahead very nicely, but I wonder if you have any comment because Norman Bethune still remains a great man in the eyes of large numbers of Chinese people.
I wonder if there is a short response to what really was a long statement.
Mr. Bobiash: You underlined a good point. I tried to make a reference to that in my introductory remarks. Our links with China and Asia are very historic. It is the personal contributions of great Canadians like Bethune that resonate with the Chinese people and other Asian countries as well. I would like to remark on the impact of missionaries from Canada in China, Korea, et cetera. Even today people refer to the presence of these people from many generations ago.
To make one other general observation, it’s very important that we really focus on education and youth in the future. If we want to change perceptions of Asia in Canada, we have to work in an active way with young Canadian students by using exchange programs and scholarships. It is a subject of some frustration for everybody that there are so many young Asian students coming to Canada. We have all sorts of bilateral exchange programs, but the uptake by Canadians is never reciprocal. It is not to the same degree. That’s an area where we have to do more work.
The Chair: It’s not just in Asia. In our studies we found that we are attracting students here, but there is less of an uptake of students from Canada for the international experience. We have noted that in our previous report. We continue to underscore that.
Senator Ngo: I have two questions. The first one is on the issue of security.
I am thinking of the other side of security. I am talking about the South China Sea. China claims overlap with other countries such as Vietnam, Philippines, Indonesia and so on. In the arbitration of UN resolutions, China flatly denied that one.
First, what can Canada do in order use its influence to find a peaceful solution in that area?
Second, you are talking about trade with other countries. What stage are we at with Taiwan regarding FIFA? Taiwan is one of the top five countries that trade with Canada.
Basically those are the two questions.
Mr. Bobiash: Let me respond, first of all, to the last part about Taiwan. Two days ago, I was hosting a delegation from Taiwan to discuss our economic relationship. As you rightly point out, we have a tremendous trade relationship with Taiwan. We do over $5 billion a year in trade. It’s our eleventh largest trading partner and fifth largest in Asia. There has been a lot of positive developments with that trading relationship.
On the first part of our question I will hand you over to our Southeast Asia expert.
Mr. Burchett: We continue to engage in issues bilaterally and multilaterally on the South China Sea. Our key objective is to ensure that the issue does not become explosive with the heightened tensions between the ambitious of China in the South China Sea and its partners in the region.
As well, we want to look for areas where Canadian support for that dialogue can take place. We look for a peaceful resolution and for a future that will ensure a balanced approach in that regard.
Senator Ngo: Did Canada also talk with Vietnam, Indonesia, Bolan and Malaysia in order to find their positions so that you can influence China to find a peaceful one?
Mr. Burchett: Yes, we continue to raise these issues bilaterally and multilaterally within ASEAN and when we are sitting down with these countries. For example, in July this year Canada held consultations with Vietnam between deputy ministers here in Ottawa. The issue of the South China Sea came up. As well, when we have had discussions with Indonesia, we have done the same.
There are areas where Canadian expertise in terms of managing certain issues, for example fisheries and other resources, can be very useful in terms of sharing those examples with those countries.
Senator Ngo: Thank you.
The Chair: We’ve run over but I had Senator Ataullahjan, Senator Woo and Senator Saint-Germain on follow ups. Obviously we have opened a dialogue with Global Affairs Canada and we are very pleased. We can reflect on whether we would like you back on more specific issues at another time.
I will take this as our first opportunity to have these kinds of updates. As a committee we should have more of them and centre on the work that you are doing so that it is helpful for the issues we choose or need to study.
As you can see there are many questions and much interest. We need to continue to be updated on Canada’s perspectives. Thank you for coming Mr. Bobiash, Ms. Taylor, Mr. Burchett and Mr. Hartman.
We are going to ask our guests to leave quickly so we can have a quick in camera meeting for five minutes.
(The committee continued in camera.)