Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Issue No. 49 - Evidence - Meeting of September 20, 2018
OTTAWA, Thursday, September 20, 2018
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade met this day at 10:30 a.m. to study the impact and utilization of Canadian culture and arts in Canadian foreign policy and diplomacy, and other related matters.
Senator A. Raynell Andreychuk (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: The committee has been authorized by the Senate to study the impact and utilization of Canadian culture and arts in Canadian foreign policy and diplomacy, and other related matters.
We will continue our study today under this mandate, but before we do so I would ask senators to introduce themselves.
[Translation]
Senator Saint-Germain: Raymonde Saint-Germain from Quebec.
Senator Cormier: René Cormier from New Brunswick.
[English]
Senator Cordy: Jane Cordy, Nova Scotia.
[Translation]
Senator Massicotte: Paul Massicotte from Quebec.
Senator Dawson: Dennis Dawson from Quebec.
[English]
Senator Oh: Victor Oh, Ontario.
Senator Greene: Stephen Greene, Nova Scotia.
Senator Ataullahjan: Salma Ataullahjan, Ontario.
The Chair: And I’m Raynell Andreychuk, chair of the committee, from Saskatchewan.
Senator Massicotte: Could I take 30 seconds to suggest that, further to the witnesses we had yesterday from Venezuela, out of purpose, I think we should invite the chargé d’affaires of Venezuela to make a presentation on their opinion. It will probably be refused, but I think it’s important to give them a chance to explain their point of view, if we can, in the future.
The Chair: I thought that would be part of what the steering committee would do. Normally that’s how we —
Senator Massicotte: If it comes to the same objective, I’ve got no problem.
The Chair: Yes. Thank you.
We’re very pleased to have with us today the Commission internationale du théâtre francophone, represented by Guylaine Normandin, Director, Supporting Artistic Practice, a new title that she has just received, so it is a bit different than what we were given originally from the Canadian Council for the Arts; and Mr. Sylvain Cornuau, Secretary-General, Commission internationale du théâtre francophone; and Jayne Watson, Chief Executive Officer, National Arts Centre Foundation, National Arts Centre.
I think some of the witnesses have testified before committees before, so you know our process, but in any event, we would like to hear your presentations and then senators would like to ask questions. I’ll just take you in the order that you’re on the program, so I’ll turn to Ms. Normandin to make the first presentation.
[Translation]
The Chair: Welcome.
Guylaine Normandin, Director, Supporting Artistic Practice (Canada Council for the Arts), Commission internationale du théâtre francophone: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I would like to thank the committee for the opportunity to be here today to talk about the impact of arts and culture on Canadian foreign policy and public diplomacy, more specifically about the Commission internationale du théâtre francophone, or CITF, a unique network that brings together the main member states of la Francophonie to advance francophone theatre around the world.
[English]
Up until last Friday, I was the director of two programs at the Canada Council for the Arts that support touring and exchanges of artists and arts organizations across the country and around the globe known quite simply as Arts Across Canada and Arts Abroad. In this role, I was also responsible for Canada’s participation in the CITF.
[Translation]
Before I talk about the CITF, I would like to take a few moments to explain the role that Canada Council grants play in the international ecosystem for the promotion of the arts. The Canada Council’s main mechanism for promoting Canadian artists and their works on the international stage is its arts abroad program. This is one of the key commitments of our strategic plan.
[English]
The program provides grants to artists, arts professionals, groups and organizations to enhance international exposure, undertake artistic exploration or exchanges with international colleagues and nurture new and existing art markets in a global context.
The funding decisions are based on peer assessment and on program criteria related to impact, relevance and feasibility of the project. In other words, while the funded activities might do a whole lot to promote Canada abroad, this funding is tied to artistic and market development objectives and not to any specific diplomacy objectives.
[Translation]
In addition to the arts abroad program, the Canada Council for the Arts participates in a range of international partnerships and strategic activities, including the Commission internationale du théâtre francophone, or CITF. The CITF is both a network and a funding agency. It is jointly managed by the main member states of la Francophonie with a view to promoting contemporary theatre practices and writing in French, promoting exchanges, collaboration and joint productions among theatre professionals in all countries of the francophone community, and promoting the sharing of theatre performances produced in those countries.
[English]
CITF was founded in 1987 through a formal agreement between the governments of France, Belgium, Quebec and Canada. Its main activity is an annual meeting at which project applications from all over la Francophonie are assessed for funding by the members. The members may also decide to organize special delegations to participate in international events that celebrate francophone culture.
The work of CITF can also contribute to global development issues through theatre. For example, CITF has recently taken a strong position on gender equity and is working to contribute to gender equity in the theatre sector across international borders.
[Translation]
The composition of the CITF is determined by its founding members: Canada, Quebec, France and francophone Belgium. Right now, the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie, Luxembourg and the canton of Valais in Switzerland are associate members. New members may be added in the coming years, particularly from the continent of Africa.
Canada’s participation is subject to Canadian Heritage policies, but is coordinated by the Canada Council for the Arts, which contributes to the network and administers its funds. The Secretary General of the CITF, whose mandate may be up to four years, has currently been with the Canada Council for the Arts since July 2015. The Secretary General, Mr. Cornuau, is here with me.
Canada contributes financially to the CITF with a grant of $90,000 annually. Additional funding is provided for initiatives such as delegations, arts studios and other exploratory or networking missions.
[English]
CITF has two co-chairs, who are currently Dominick Parenteau-Lebeuf from Canada and Benoît Bradel from France. Each participating country has government representation as well as a country expert from the artistic community. Currently Canada’s artistic expert is Geneviève Pelletier, Artistic and General Director at Théâtre Cercle Molière in Winnipeg, a theatre company dedicated to promoting French-language theatre in Manitoba. In continuous operation since 1925, it is the oldest professional theatre in Canada.
The CITF provides financial assistance through two programs, one to support co-productions and one for artistic explorations that may or may not lead to a co-production.
The unique multilateral structure of CITF has leveraged support for over 300 projects, involving many Canadian artists, to collaborate across borders in theatrical creation and production, to enrich and grow their artistic practices, to discover other French-speaking cultures, and to develop audiences both at home and abroad. In particular, CITF has enabled Canadian artists to gain a toehold in more challenging markets such as French-speaking Africa.
[Translation]
In 2018, the CITF supported the following projects in particular: Par tes yeux, a collaboration between a French company, a Cameroonian company and a Canadian author living in Montreal, Martin Bellemare; Je suis le contrepoids du monde, between Théâtre Le Clou, in Montreal, a French company and a Belgian organization; L’armoire, between the Cercle Molière, in Winnipeg, a Moroccan company and a French company; Faust augmenté, between Les songes turbulents, from Montreal, the Théâtre du Trillium, from Ottawa, and three French authors; La traversée des continents, between the Théâtre Motus from Longueuil, a company from Mali and a company from Switzerland; and finally, La petite fille et le corbeau, between Tenon Mortaise, from Montreal, a French company and a Belgian designer.
In 2018, 27 projects were evaluated, 13 were supported and, of those, six involved Canadians. In September 2017, the CITF organized, in partnership with the National Arts Centre, the producer of Zones théâtrales, an international artistic meeting of creators in Ottawa for 12 days. This studio or “pépinière,” as we call it at the CITF, was run by Marcel Dubois of Montreal, Khalid Tamer of Marrakesh, Morocco, and Dominique Saint-Pierre of Ottawa. The 18 participants came from francophone communities in Canada, Quebec, Belgium, France, Luxembourg, Lebanon, Senegal, and Mayotte.
From a cultural diplomacy perspective, Canada’s commitment and leadership within the CITF strengthens Canadian participation and presence in countries of the Francophonie, creating a rich forum for exchange and ties across borders. The CITF will attend the next Francophonie Summit in Yerevan, Armenia, in October 2018.
[English]
My colleague Sylvain Cornuau, Secretary General of CITF, and I will be happy to answer any questions that you may have about CITF and its contribution to cultural diplomacy. Thank you very much.
[Translation]
Jayne Watson, Chief Executive Officer, National Arts Centre Foundation, National Arts Centre: Thank you, Madam Chair. I am very pleased to be here to present to the Senate committee the National Arts Centre’s efforts to develop, promote and showcase the performing arts around the world.
[English]
Let me begin with a simple assertion. Canada’s artists are arguably this country’s most important export product and increasingly they symbolize Canada for the world.
I’m sure most of you have had the experience of travelling internationally and asking people what they know about Canada. They probably told you they’ve never heard of most of our politicians — sorry — that they probably can’t name that many of our business leaders or even our hockey players, but I suspect they told you that the people who really define Canada are our artists. In fact, in a study undertaken by MIT a few years ago about the most famous people in countries around the world, only in Canada were the 10 most famous people all artists.
Just think of our extraordinary writers like Alice Munro, whose intimate stories about small-town Ontario showcase her big talent, culminating with the Nobel Prize in 2014; or the many Canadians in film and television, from Jean-Marc Vallée to Sandra Oh.
[Translation]
Pop stars such as Drake, Ruth B and Alessia Cara are often at the top of the charts. In classical music, Yannick Nézet-Séguin holds a prestigious position as music director of the Metropolitan Opera of New York.
[English]
I know a representative of his home orchestra, Orchestre Métropolitain, spoke before this committee earlier this spring.
[Translation]
This summer, Robert Lepage’s production of Coriolanus, at the Stratford Festival, was described as riveting by The New York Times.
[English]
If you will allow me a little plug, Robert Lepage will be on stage at the National Arts Centre on October 3 for just four performances as the Marquis de Sade in Quills, so get your tickets now.
[Translation]
Clearly, our country is rich in creativity. In many cases, our artists are the ones promoting Canada and highlighting its innovative spirit and diversity. They help to build an image of the country that goes beyond beautiful landscapes and natural resources.
[English]
At the National Arts Centre, we actively promote Canadian performing artists on the international stage. We do this to help them gain audiences and the success that they deserve.
We do it so they can share Canadian stories with audiences abroad. As both Heather Reisman, CEO of Indigo and Chapters, and former President Barack Obama have said, “The world needs more Canada.” But we also promote Canadian artists abroad because we believe in the value of cultural diplomacy.
[Translation]
The NAC has one of the best orchestras in the world just a few steps from here. Our regular tours in Canada and around the world are designed to promote Canadian music and talent beyond our borders.
[English]
In 2013, the National Arts Centre Orchestra’s performance and education tour to China helped shape Canada’s image as a cultural powerhouse, and offered opportunities for international diplomacy. When David Johnston, then Governor General, attended one of our concert in Shanghai, he said, “We are so proud of our Canadian stars here in China. What a wonderful way to establish relationships between people.”
On that tour to China, we brought Alberta composer John Estacio whose work Brio we performed in cities across China. An image that will always stay with me is when literally hundreds of Chinese audience members, after being introduced to John, flocked to meet him, get a selfie and an autograph at the concert.
[Translation]
John has also taught composition courses and worked with Chinese students and composers. I myself had the opportunity during this tour to give some seminars on fundraising and philanthropy to Chinese students in arts administration.
[English]
Rupert Duchesne, then president of the tour’s presenting sponsor Aimia, said that the China tour of the NAC Orchestra was about bringing something that is quintessentially Canadian, Canada’s national orchestra, to a market like China. “All countries have brands,” he said, “and the Canadian brand historically has been about nature, . . . the cliche of open spaces. To change the perception of Canada as a great cultural centre is critically important.”
In 2014, the National Arts Centre Orchestra travelled to the U.K. with a tour that marked the centenary of the start of the First World War. With a message of remembrance and peace, the tour touched thousands of audience members and young people through beautiful performances and meaningful education events about Canada’s role in the Great War. But it also underscored the deep ties between Canada and the U.K.
[Translation]
In addition to touring, the NAC connects Canadian artists to the world by producing digital content such as live shows, podcasts and videos that attract an international audience. As a leader in distance learning technologies, the NAC regularly offers young Canadian artists the opportunity to interact with teachers and audiences around the world.
[English]
The NAC also commissions new work by Canadian composers and records it so that work can reach an international audience. In 2017, as part of a Canada 150 initiative, the National Arts Centre commissioned “ENCOUNT3RS,”, three new ballets by Canadian three Canadian choreographers and three new pieces of music by Canadian composers, danced by three Canadian ballet companies. Because the NAC Orchestra recorded the music, those ballet companies now have access and will be able to tour those works internationally.
Finally, the NAC shares financial resources with Canadian creators who want to take their work to the world stage. We have a new National Creation Fund which will invest up to $3 million a year in new works by Canadian artists and arts organizations from across the country. This is the result of a national fundraising campaign that we ran, which raised more than $25 million from donors in all parts of Canada to allow the National Arts Centre to make a big difference in investing in creation.
[Translation]
Those funds, which come entirely from private donations, will help artists create fully successful works that will delight audiences here and abroad. We are convinced that the Canadian performing arts deserve the same kind of success as other art forms such as literature, film, television and popular music.
[English]
Let me close by saying this: In 2019, the National Arts Centre will celebrate its fiftieth anniversary as Canada’s home for the performing arts. In May of next year, the NAC Orchestra will tour Europe with nine concerts and dozens of education events in England, France, the Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden. This is being paid for entirely by private donors.
One of the pieces performed is called “Life Reflected,” a major multimedia work that tells the story of four unique Canadian women: Alice Munro, Amanda Todd, Roberta Bondar and Rita Joe. I can’t think of a better way to represent Canada to the world than through the stories of these four extraordinary Canadian women and the remarkable contributions they have each made to their country. The orchestral works about these women were composed by great Canadian composers: Nicole Lizée, Jocelyn Morlock, Zosha di Castri and John Estacio. In fact, Jocelyn won this year’s Juno for classical composition of the year for her work entitled “My Name is Amanda Todd.”
[Translation]
Canadian artists are the best ambassadors for our country. They deserve to be seen and heard around the world because of their role in cultural diplomacy. The NAC is proud to help make this all possible. Thank you very much.
[English]
The Chair: Your presentations have generated a list of senators wishing to ask questions, and we’ll start with Senator Saint-Germain.
Senator Saint-Germain: I have two questions.
[Translation]
My first question is for Ms. Normandin and Mr. Cornuau.
First, I will declare a conflict of interest. I do so on my own behalf and on behalf of Senator Cormier. In 1987, I represented the Government of Quebec in the negotiations of the multilateral agreement that created the CITF. Senator Cormier was the representative of the artistic community. I am happy and at the same time surprised by the CITF’s longevity. Let me congratulate you because at the time, we didn’t think it would go that far.
The objective of the CITF is in line with one of the committee’s concerns: giving our duality an opportunity to exist. Governments have a role to play in promoting arts and culture in Canadian diplomacy. At the same time, we do not want the role to be almost constantly about grants without artists themselves being able to use the grants as a lever to penetrate commercial markets.
A little more than 30 years after the creation of the CITF, I would like to know what examples you can give us to show that this financial support has also made it possible to go beyond simple exchanges and has allowed breakthroughs in the commercial network of international theatre.
Ms. Normandin: That’s an excellent question. It is not easy to collect the data in a systematic way, because the exchanges that take place during CITF projects will often have immediate impacts, but also in the much longer term. So, following each of the projects or each of the artists over a period of 10, 20, 30 years is quite complicated. There is also the fact that a commercial market in the performing arts sector is sort of special, so the tours that result from those projects will allow the organizations to obtain a reputation and then tour. Sometimes, we support all the stages and subsequent rounds, but they are project grants, so to be able to answer your question, you would have to do case studies. I would say that, in this case, the purely economic aspect is not the one that is picked up first.
Sylvain Cornuau, Secretary-General, Commission internationale du théâtre francophone: In terms of exchanges, if we remove the financial aspect, some artists can manage to be in contact with more people or to reach different audiences.
It may be difficult to evaluate, but I will take a very simple example: the Cercle Molière in Winnipeg. A few years ago, the artistic director set up a CITF studio in Marrakesh, Morocco. Her idea was that the many newcomers to Winnipeg could be a potential audience. She met a Senegalese artist in Morocco and hosted her show two years later in Winnipeg. So, for two weeks, she included the show in her program. It was a great success that allowed her to reach an audience that may not have been the Cercle Molière’s traditional audience. How do you put a number on that? It is difficult to answer. This is a very specific example of a new audience created through its participation in the CITF.
In Morocco, she also met a Moroccan artist who lives in France and they decided to co-produce a show called L’armoire, which is scheduled to open in Winnipeg in two weeks. Clearly, as a co-producer, Le Cercle Molière has put money into it, Canada has put money into it through the CITF, and also through Canada Council for the Arts programs, but so have Morocco and France. The artists came to Winnipeg in residence, which generated economic benefits. How, out of 300 projects in 30 years, could we really quantify the commercial impact? This is an issue.
Senator Saint-Germain: Ms. Watson, thank you for your presentation.
I noted that, in 2016-2017, the National Arts Centre Foundation raised $12.4 million from 6,600 donors, a significant amount. I also note that $7.7 million has been redistributed to support, enrich and expand artistic and educational programming. Can you elaborate on the criteria you used to distribute those millions of dollars?
Ms. Watson: Thank you for the question.
[English]
When we fundraise, of course, the first thing we talk to donors about are the strategic priorities of the National Arts Centre. If we know that the orchestra wants to tour to China, for example, I will go to donors and say, “We’re thinking about doing a tour to China, and would you be interested in helping us?” The strategic priorities of the National Arts Centre, which involve performance, creation and learning, are what drives what we call in fundraising the case for support to put in front of a donor.
The difference that you mentioned, senator, in terms of how much we’ve raised and how much we gave to the NAC, sometimes includes the fact that money that is given in a particular year might not be for a project that’s happening in the future. For example, we’re doing a tour to Europe next year, and only four people are paying for that entire tour. Some of the donors have paid their pledges all at once, but the NAC doesn’t need the money this year because the tour isn’t happening until next year. We hold that back, in effect, so that accounts for some of the difference between the amounts.
For fundraising, when you’re a hospital or post-secondary institution, you take the strategic priorities and the ongoing priorities in the organization, go to a donor and try to get them excited about being part of a vision to make that project happen. Sometimes a donor will come to you and say, “I love the work of this particular playwright, and if you’re ever going to do something by them, can I help with that particular project?” We love our donors’ enthusiasm about that, but our first obligation is to focus on the priorities of the institution, in this case the National Arts Centre. That’s what drives the fundraising conversations.
[Translation]
Senator Dawson: Robert Lepage will soon be putting on his play Marquis de Sade. This brings me to last summer’s unfortunate controversy over his plays SLĀV and Kanata, where he received very little support when he was accused of cultural appropriation. I can well imagine that, if he puts on Marquis de Sade, the masochists might say that they should be invited to the play and that they will protest in front of your venue. That would be a little promotion.
I think it’s unfortunate that the industry did not show its support, just like Canadian politicians, who regularly promote Mr. Lepage — and I am one of them—and that no one said, “Look, this is ridiculous.” Our objective, as a committee, is precisely to promote Canadians abroad, and it is inevitable that themes will sometimes be appropriated — the Marquis de Sade is a good example — themes that are not really of Canadian origin, but that we use as a tool to promote Canadians.
Here is my question: what do we do as politicians, as a committee, to ensure that the Canadian government will help artists in those sorts of circumstances? It was in the summer. It is behind us now. There might have been questions in the Senate if it had been sitting at the time, but I think it’s unfortunate that no one reached out to him. What can you recommend to us to ensure, in those sorts of controversies, that we can support our great Canadian actors and artists?
[English]
Ms. Watson: It’s appropriate. This is a diplomatic discussion because that’s a very tricky question. I can share with you because it’s in the public domain.
[Translation]
Actually, the artistic director of the French theatre at the National Arts Centre, Brigitte Haentjens, wrote an open letter in support of Mr. Lepage.
[English]
She was speaking as an artist, not representing the National Arts Centre.
[Translation]
Senator Dawson, if I understand correctly, she shares your opinion that Mr. Lepage has the right to make his own creations.
[English]
That is not a view universally shared in the Canadian arts community. We heard a wide variety of voices on that front.
I’m not sure what politicians can do. I think it’s healthy to have debate and raise issues and have a discussion about art. Sometimes something negative engages people in a wider sense. I thought one of the most interesting things this year was the controversy over the potential sale of the Chagall painting. When do we get major stories in The Globe and Mail or Le Devoir and get Natalie Blondil and Marc Mayer and —
[Translation]
— everyone talking about it?
[English]
Sometimes it is something negative that opens up a dialogue and discussion. I don’t think it’s a bad thing that we had a wide-ranging discussion in the media about cultural appropriation and proper voices. I’m speaking now as an individual.
For thousands of years, Indigenous artists have not had their proper place at the table. We at the National Arts Centre have established a new department.
[Translation]
It is an Indigenous theatre, that will be running in September 2019.
[English]
Ironically, the NAC in 1969 opened its very first play. It was a play called the Ecstasy of Rita Joe by a great Western Canadian playwright, George Ryga. I think there was one Indigenous actor in the entire play. Rita Joe was played by a white actress. Of course, that would never happen today. So there is a rebalancing that has to take place, I believe.
I don’t want to get myself in any further trouble. I’ll stop there.
Senator Dawson: That wasn’t my objective.
Senator Oh: Thank you panellists. Both organizations have been doing a great job on cultural diplomacy. As you mentioned, artists are the best ambassadors for any country. I walk past the NAC every night. It’s beautiful. It’s being transformed to a beautiful theatre and centre.
Can you tell us how many overseas performances you brought to the NAC every year and how many you take from here to China, Europe and other parts of the world?
Well done for your trips to China last year.
Ms. Watson: Thank you, senator.
I should preface my answer by saying that the National Arts Centre is very grateful to two successive governments — the government of former Prime Minister Stephen Harper and the current government of Justin Trudeau — for their wonderful support for the architectural rejuvenation of the National Arts Centre. We have a beautiful new building and have brought our 50-year-old state of the art equipment back up to 21st century standards thanks to the support from two governments, so we’re very grateful for that. I encourage all of you to come visit our beautiful, new, welcoming and transparent space.
Senator, the international companies that we welcome tend to be more on the dance and the orchestra front because of the issue of language. We don’t get a lot of Chinese acting companies coming here, but we do welcome orchestras from Beijing. The National Arts Centre is about to re-sign a memorandum of understanding with our equivalent in Beijing, the National Centre for the Performing Arts. The idea is that the NAC Orchestra plays in China, and we brought the NCPA Orchestra back here. We went in 2013 and they came here in 2014. We will do that exchange again.
We bring in companies like the Shanghai Ballet. We have lots of international companies, such as Grupo Corpo from Brazil, Akram Khan from the U.K., and the American Ballet Theatre. Lots of international touring dance companies come every year to the National Arts Centre.
And we have a tradition of co-productions and touring.
[Translation]
This is particularly the case with French theatre, whether with companies in Paris, Belgium or other countries of la Francophonie. Many projects are going on tour, with the help of the CITF as well.
[English]
It varies in a given year. We might have half a dozen international companies one year, two dozen the next year and a dozen the next year. It depends on the programming. Some of these things are booked years in advance. If you are trying to get the Kirov Ballet to come from Russia, they are booked years in advance.
We have a wide variety of programming. I’ll give you all my business cards. We want you to come and see your artists as well as international artists on our stages.
[Translation]
Senator Cormier: Since declaring our possible conflicts of interest is the right thing to do, I would like to remind you that the NAC was my employer before I came to the Senate. I have also chaired the Commission internationale du théâtre francophone. I wanted to state that again and so, clearly, I know the work of both organizations well.
I have two questions, mostly about reciprocity. In cultural diplomacy, for example, how do we enhance the importance of reciprocity? What role does reciprocity have, in your view, in the success that Canada could have in cultural diplomacy?
Can you give us examples? For the NAC, the examples may sometimes be more dazzling, but the CITF may have small examples of small projects that still build a structure because they are reciprocal. Can you tell us more about that so that we can fully understand the role of reciprocity in cultural diplomacy?
And here is my second question. Who runs cultural diplomacy in Canada? Is it that good old collaboration framework that I think exists between the Canada Council for the Arts, Canadian Heritage and Global Affairs Canada? Do I have that correct? How does the framework work? What improvements are needed for cultural diplomacy to be taken in hand in our country in a meaningful way?
Ms. Watson: Guylaine and Sylvain are probably better equipped to deal with the second question. As for reciprocity, as I mentioned for the orchestras, we have the opportunity to undertake exchanges with them. For example, when we went to China, we established relationships with orchestras and universities, on educational matters too. We are maintaining those educational links. As for orchestra visits, as I mentioned, the NAC’s counterpart orchestra in Beijing came here and we are going to repeat the experience in 2020. So, in terms of reciprocity, that is how things work in the world of classical music.
I don’t know whether that answers your question. When you go to those countries, you establish personal relationships and you have the opportunity to talk about creative projects. It starts with the personal relationships, I believe.
Senator Cormier: I would like to ask a complementary question before you answer.
I am trying to find out whether, in the NAC’s international strategy, it is more important to project Canada outwards through overseas touring. Is bringing artistic organizations in from abroad equally important? Is that part of your strategy?
Ms. Watson: I feel that, if we had to say that one strategy is more important than another, it is more important for us to project Canadian artists nationally. It is equally important to invite other artists to Canada, but our first goal, in terms of artistic development, is to project Canadian artists nationally.
Mr. Cornuau: Thank you. That is a very good question. Usually, when we go to someone’s home and are given a warm welcome, we then like to welcome them to our home.
The Canada Council for the Arts has programs to support artists and infrastructures that go in both directions. We have festivals, companies and locations in Canada that, of course, can be projected internationally, but can also host others. Specifically for that, we have the Foreign Artist Tours component of the Arts Across Canada program. I think that it is crucial on a number of levels.
First of all, I feel that it is important for the Canadian public to be open to the world, to different aesthetics, to what is going on in Asia, in Europe or in South America. The Canada Council for the Arts has a number of mechanisms designed to increase these exchanges, such as partnerships with the South, with Asia, or with France.
For the CITF, the goal really is to allow artists from all around the world to meet together and then to invite each other reciprocally. As a result, there are some wonderful stories of foreign artists who have come to Canada. For example, I am thinking about a choreographer from Chad who came to Caraquet to work with the Satellite Théâtre company which, in turn, went into refugee camps over there in Chad. The collaboration will produce a show that has not been created yet, but that should be able to be performed in both countries. We also have a project with a theatre in Longueuil, Théâtre Motus. That is an interesting case because they have done two projects with Mali, that caught the attention of Malian artists in Montreal, and toured Quebec. The company, Théâtre Motus, went to Mali and to other countries in west Africa, such as Burkina Faso and Senegal.
We want to use that reciprocity for artistic exchanges, If artists want to be on an equal creative footing and really go a long way in their creative process, they need to see who others are, how others go about creating. Those others need to come to us to see how we create and what that means for us together. We want to find out what kind of works come from the cross-fertilization and the coming together. I don’t know whether that answers your question a little bit.
Senator Cormier: How about the second question?
Ms. Normandin: Yes. I would like to add to what Sylvain mentioned when he said that, for us, reciprocity is the key in cultural diplomacy, because the relationship has to go in both directions. Just projecting oneself outwards is not enough. We must not neglect the transformational effect of coming together, not only for the rest of the world, but also for Canadian artists and the Canadian public.
I am really happy that the question of federal coordination of cultural diplomacy is coming up, because, for a number of years, the Canadian government’s investment in arts and culture overseas noticeably slowed down. For several years, since the new government came into power, we have heard our Prime Minister saying, “Canada is back” on the international stage. The coordination is bringing together a number of players: the Canada Council for the Arts is not the only player in this initiative. The Global Affairs and Canadian Heritage departments also play a very important role. Actually, Global Affairs Canada and Canadian Heritage are making a comeback, because the Canada Council for the Arts has more or less been there all the time. With now three players in a common initiative, it was really vital to create a framework for collaboration, first in order to achieve some federal consistency in the matter and, second, to be able to coordinate our initiatives for best effect.
Each of the three groups has its main responsibilities. At the Canada Council, our main concern is certainly about the artists and the artistic organizations, meaning developing art, exchanges, and so on.
For Canadian Heritage, the exporting side of the cultural industry is a greater priority. For Global Affairs Canada, clearly, the priority is cultural diplomacy. However, in real life, there are few, if any, initiatives that are solely diplomatic, commercial or artistic. There are always elements of all three. That means that we are going to be collaborating, such as for the Frankfurt Book Fair in 2020, where Canada will be the guest of honour. This is a really important and substantial project that will require coordinated and concerted efforts.
In my opinion, the framework will mean that action at international level can be resumed more quickly, despite it having perhaps had less of a presence in recent years. I do not know if you want more details; perhaps Sylvain would like to add something.
Mr. Cornuau: Actually, one dimension of this whole thing is as simple as exchanging information. So we have established channels so that we can communicate regularly, almost on a daily basis, with Global Affairs or Canadian Heritage in order to exchange information at all levels. Shortly, in mid-November, we will be using a meeting in Montreal of twenty or so cultural attachés, the ones at Canadian embassies abroad, to meet and have meetings and discussions with them and to answer their questions about the work of the Canada Council for the Arts and about artistic projects around the world.
You should know that the Canada Council is fortunate in that artists submit their projects well in advance. We often know a year in advance where artists are going. This is very valuable information for Global Affairs Canada and even Canadian Heritage, who can often join in with the projects or alert their staff overseas to bring in additional support. This information channel alone is important, both in terms of the strategic partnerships that we can put in place together, and of funding. Sometimes, our numbers are needed to be able to bring expensive projects to fruition.
[English]
Senator Cordy: Thanks to all of you for the work that you do in arts and culture in Canada. John Ralston Saul was here yesterday and talked to us about our cultural image in Canada, and you are certainly all helping to create Canada’s cultural image.
As a follow-up to Senator Cormier’s question, the issue that we’re studying is the impact and utilization of Canadian culture and arts in Canadian foreign policy and diplomacy, so when we write our report, how do we make the point? What is the most important thing to let Canadians know about the impact that Canadian culture and the arts have on diplomacy? It’s not just that we’re sending our artists to another country or that they are coming here. How does it help open doors for other avenues of diplomacy?
Ms. Normandin: One aspect or important element is that opening the world to Canadians also helps open Canadians to the world within Canada.
The current context of Canada is multicultural. It is comprised of many approaches, many perspectives. That diplomacy is a very positive element to help us understand and relate to progress on the multiculturalism issue. That’s one aspect I find important.
Ms. Watson: I think it’s really important that we use every tool we have in the toolbox when we’re operating at a global level. I would like to underline and thank our embassies and consulates. The ones that I have had the privilege to work with when we have been doing international projects are fantastic; they are great people on the ground, boots on the ground, so to speak, to open doors. Having culture as part of our approach to dealing with global issues allows you that soft opening. It’s an ice-breaker, an opportunity to get people in the room that you might not normally get in. You see the power of an artist to attract people to come to events.
When we were in China, at that time our music director was Pinchas Zukerman, one of the world’s greatest violinists, so we could pull in a lot of interesting business people. Something like 10 million people are learning piano in China, and 15 million are playing the violin, so there is a lot of interest in classical music in China. Corporate partners like Aimia and a multitude of Canadian companies wanted to be associated with this tour because they knew it was a soft way for them to have discussions around business, and to bring people together and to use it as a platform for engaging from a business perspective as well. Our consulates and embassies, the cultural attaches, the ambassadors and the consul general do amazing jobs in promoting Canada. I’m thrilled that there is more of an emphasis, as Ms. Normandin mentioned, on cultural diplomacy in the last several years, because I think it’s effective in getting Canada’s message across.
Senator Cordy: I would like to ask about CITF. I’m from Nova Scotia, which has a large Acadian population. I would like to know how you work together with the Acadian population and the population of Quebec. I am assuming that you do, since Senator Cormier was such an important part of it, but if you could just explain to me, who doesn’t know that much about it, how it works.
Mr. Cornuau: Thank you for the question. I’m going to answer in French.
[Translation]
I feel that the CITF is still too well-kept a secret. In fact, I would encourage everyone to become an ambassador of this very interesting, yet basically simple, vehicle with their people, so that artists can be made aware of the possibility.
As for the very specific number of Acadian artists, once we are past the need to make the CITF known, I feel that artists also have to have the will, the desire, to go and meet the world. It is often possible for the CITF to organize what we call “studios” so that artists can simply go and meet, before they start to create projects together.
We are always on the lookout for platforms. Which are the world’s most appropriate platforms for artists to meet on? It may be the Canada Council or the CITF, because those two organizations are extremely closely linked. In terms of the Francophonie, we have identified a very major festival in Limoges, in France. There is also the Récréâtrales, in Ouagadougou, the Festival du théâtre des Réalités, in Mali, or the Zones théâtrales event in Ottawa. We are trying to encourage artists from all over Canada to become interested in our programs and to ask us, as much as we ask them, to join the platforms, take part in our delegations, and go and meet the world. Because once they have the projects, we will have the mechanisms in place to support them. But it needs that first spark.
How does an Acadian artist all of a sudden meet the Francophonie in its international sense? That is one of the key questions, I feel. So a number of platforms exist and we want to work on those provided by the Canada Council for the Arts or the CITF.
Through your networks, I really encourage you to tell them that the platforms exist. We can go and meet with the artists and hold information sessions. But it is very important for the information to come through a number of channels so that artists know that they can create projects at an international level.
[English]
Ms. Normandin: May I add, over the years we have been coordinating our selection of artists for delegations to prepare them and give them opportunities to meet with artists from abroad. We have been coordinating with the Government of Quebec with their council of the arts. We do not select only francophone artists from outside of Quebec, but we do it as a priority and include them first in our delegation. So whether it’s Acadie or the Prairies or Vancouver, it’s a coordinated effort to make sure that we don’t only send people from Montreal, though we love them.
[Translation]
Senator Massicotte: Thank you for joining us this morning. This is very important. As Senator Cormier rightly pointed out, the goal of the study is not to say that culture is important, because we already know that it is important for Canadians. Rather, the goal is to find out how to use culture to better pursue Canada’s interests as a country, and for our foreign affairs. That is really the perspective. Is there anything we can improve? Clearly, we could spend more money, but is there an easy solution that would let Canada take better advantage of its artists overseas? In other words, what should we improve, or do differently?
Ms. Normandin: If there is an easy solution, I do not know what it is. Your question is an excellent one.
We are getting back on the map, if I may put it that way. I believe that we have to gather data better and that we must access them more easily. As my colleague indicated earlier in our preparatory conversation, history is being written without us. We do not know the scope of our involvement because we do not really have the tools we need to gather the data that would let us know exactly what is going on. Nor do we have a common mechanism with our federal partners. We can gather our own data, but do the other federal institutions use the same mechanisms?
That is one of the projects under way as part of the current collaboration between Global Affairs Canada, Canadian Heritage and the Canada Council for the Arts. If we had easier access to that data, we would be in a better position to determine where the holes and gaps are, and to find out where we must do more.
In addition, we would be in a position to better promote what we are doing in a concerted way. Some extraordinary promotional tools are available today, like social media, which are very powerful and easily accessed. In my opinion, that is the first area where we should be working harder. To use the vernacular, we’ve got it, so we need to flaunt it more often.
Mr. Cornuau: I would like to add a comment. We talked about China a little earlier. In 2017, the Canada Council for the arts supported 400 Canadian stage shows in China. If we add music and the visual arts, we get to 1,100 shows. That means that, somewhere in China, there are one, perhaps two, shows a day featuring Canadian artists. That is just one example.
Unfortunately, at the moment, neither the Canada Council nor the other institutions like Canadian Heritage and Global Affairs Canada have a data collection system that would let us get that information, other than manually. We and our colleagues do it by hand. In terms of cultural diplomacy, these data could be useful to you and to our embassies. We are not sufficiently aware of what is going on.
One very important feature of international relations, in culture specifically, is stability. One of the issues is to stabilize a certain level of support, but also to stabilize teams in place, experts overseas, experts at home, and to be able to keep them. I feel that this is extremely important, so that we are not doing the same work every five or 10 years, which leads to a kind of stagnation. We have to establish, maintain and stabilize our tools, because all international relations develop over time.
Ms. Watson: In terms of diplomacy — I think that Ms. Clarkson came to testify before the committee — Ms. Clarkson was well known for her state visits and for being very involved in culture.
[English]
It’s almost like when we would do Team Canada. That was used when Mr. Chrétien was Prime Minister, the Team Canada idea of not just going with your trade hat on but taking your culture hat at the same time and approaching it in that way. I think it’s very effective to have the two linked together, whether it is a state visit by the Governor General or a minister travelling abroad, always making sure that there is perhaps an opportunity to highlight if there is a Canadian theatre company in Beijing at the time, making sure they’re invited to the reception being held for the minister, and vice versa, encouraging culture to be part of it.
As a country, we need to diversify our trade sources. We are a very global country. We export a lot. Exports are key to our prosperity, but we also need to export our artists and make it part of that equation as well. So in terms of practical suggestions, making sure that culture is always part of ministerial and state visits.
[Translation]
Senator Massicotte: Our image is a bit like a company. It speaks to our values, to our population. It becomes our trademark. The artists who travel abroad define us, which can be very beneficial to Canada in terms of confidence, sophistication, innovation. It can even be helpful for business.
At the same time, however, the vast majority of our artists, as the witness said yesterday, are not necessarily known as Canadians, especially English-speaking ones. We have great artists and people do not always know they are Canadian. We are missing out on a great opportunity because these artists could be spokespeople in promoting our image. Do you think it is important to work at this, to change the context, to promote our artists internationally so the whole world knows that our artists are Canadian? Is that important?
[English]
Ms. Watson: Most people probably know that Drake is Canadian or at least that he’s from Toronto. He’s done a great job of developing the brand The 6. I don’t know if anyone follows that. He’s a big Raptors fan. I think he acts as an unofficial ambassador for the city of Toronto. So absolutely.
Do people know Coeur de pirate is from Quebec? She’s a huge star in France.
Make sure that, wherever possible, we promote, whether it’s through the embassies or consulates. Make sure, even as sort of a social media campaign: Did you know Arcade Fire is Canadian? Did you know Ed Burtynsky is Canadian? He’s winning the biggest photography prize in the world. He actually has an exhibit opening at the National Gallery next week. Go and see Ed Burtynsky’s work; it’s fantastic.
So I think that’s a great idea, promoting the fact that some of the world’s greatest artists are Canadian. Frankly, we need to do a better job even in Canada. Oftentimes we have the two solitudes.
There’s a wonderful story. The National Arts Centre is very proud to produce and the foundation raises the money for the Governor General’s Performing Arts Awards Gala every year. There was a famous story before my time, one of the early iterations of this, and it was a great initiative started by the late Governor General Ramon John Hnatyshyn, who started the Governor General’s Performing Arts Awards. At one of the first galas, Leonard Cohen and Gilles Vigneault won or were selected, and they had never actually met. I cannot believe that Leonard Cohen and Gilles Vigneault had never met. They met at the NAC, at the Governor General’s Performing Arts Awards Gala.
So breaking down solitudes and barriers so that we understand who our great artists are, English, French and Indigenous as well.
[Translation]
Ms. Normandin: I think this is very important because it opens doors for other Canadian artists. For instance, an initiative was launched two years ago at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival where Canada is represented at a venue. There are more than 3,000 shows at the festival. You can easily get lost there. It is a jungle. Following the success of one particular show, there was a unique initiative where Canada presented five shows at a venue called CanadaHub. This is the second year for this initiative. In just two years, attendance has doubled, and the number of foreign presenters who come to see the shows and then take them on tour has increased tremendously. People from many countries are calling producers because they are very interested in our model. We also work with our colleagues at Canada House and Global Affairs Canada to promote not only CanadaHub, but all the artists in Edinburgh in August, where six of the 11 Edinburgh festivals are held.
I think this highlights the need to work on identifying artists because they might not be known. There are emerging artists. Artists are starting to travel right around the world at a younger age. Twenty years ago, it was the more mature and famous artists who travelled around the world. Now, they have not even finished school and already have connections all over the world. It is incredible. This opens doors and promotes the emergence of our artists.
Mr. Cornuau: CanadaHub is one of the key initiatives of the Canada Council for the Arts and other partners. Since we are in charge of it, one of the conditions we gave the producer, who is the artistic director, is that the program must feature artists from five different Canadian provinces every year. This also gives a variety of Canadian artists the opportunity to be at a venue that showcases Canada’s artistic diversity. It was great in Edinburgh.
On a positive note, the American actress Jodie Foster saw one of the plays in Edinburgh. With her own money, she brought Mouthpiece to the United States, a production by Quote UnQuote Collective. A film was shown at the Toronto International Film Festival a few days ago. These are success stories. Everyone knows it is a Canadian production.
I would also like to speak to the difference between a well-known artist and a less well-known artist. Among the 400 theatrical performances given in China in 2017 that I mentioned, about 300 were by theatre companies for young audiences. That means that more than 20,000 children in China have seen a Canadian production for children. These children definitely know that the artists are from Canada. The first thing their teacher says when they go to a performance is, “We are going to see a play from Canada.”
Similarly, we must not underestimate all the work done by child/young artists in Canada. Those shows tour widely internationally. They are not as well-known because they might not be as glamourous as those by other artists, but they reach young people directly who hear about Canada from a very young age. I think this is an important point in terms of cultural diplomacy.
[English]
Ms. Normandin: As an aside for Senator Cordy, one of the shows that was a huge success and is still touring around the world from the CanadaHub is the play Old Stock from 2b Theatre Company from Halifax.
[Translation]
Senator Housakos: Thank you for being here today. You said that the culture sector can make a considerable contribution to diplomacy. The Canadian government is facing a huge challenge with one of its most important partners, the United States. What specifically can the Canadian culture sector do to help the government improve its relationship with the United States?
Ms. Normandin: It is not easy for Canadian artists to tour in the United States. They are major issues in getting permits and the associated costs. I think artists could be outstanding ambassadors, but the conditions are not favourable at this time for artists to play the full role that they could.
[English]
Ms. Watson: I think kill them with kindness and the charm offensive. Use whatever we have. We have some great Canadian talent. The President of the United States likes stars. Trot them out, bring them. Help them make part of our pitch. That’s the whole idea of state dinners and things like that. I think it’s difficult to put it all on the back of some poor artist to solve our current trade negotiations, but it doesn’t hurt to, I suppose. Maybe Minister Freeland is doing that right now, playing some Drake music in the background to help things along.
I don’t think I have an answer to that question that you’re looking for, senator, sorry.
Senator Housakos: I do appreciate that there probably isn’t an easy answer, but is it fair to say that the cultural community agrees that there has to be a strong entry point into the world’s largest market if we’re going to continue to flourish and grow our cultural communities? And is it a fair statement to say that government or the private sector community and the artist cultural communities have to work closely together in order to find the way to penetrate what is the world’s most important cultural and economic market?
Ms. Watson: Absolutely.
The Chair: There is agreement on that.
Senator Ataullahjan: Thank you for your presentations.
I would like to speak about the role of social media. We keep hearing about Drake and how he has renamed Toronto The 6, and that’s what the young kids refer to Toronto as now, if you look at Instagram or anything. Anyone he mentions, such as a certain councillor he tweeted about, was an instant celebrity worldwide.
Have you thought about harnessing that power and using some of these artists who are very popular with the younger generation, to get them interested in certain aspects of art that they might not be interested in?
Ms. Watson: I was struck every four years when the Olympics rolled around — or is it every two years now? I can’t remember. When the Olympics came, I remember the CBC used to have this great drum roll and they’d tell you about who the athletes are, give this little story. It would be on multiple platforms, on radio, television and the Internet. Maybe we need to do that about our artists. It’s great that every four years we hear about this skeleton competitor and downhill skier and the skaters, but we need to do that for our artists to make sure they are better known. I’m sure there are more clever people than I am, younger people who can think about ways to promote Canadian talent through using social media. “Did you know” — fill in the blank — “is Canadian?” and doing that not just in a Canadian context but in a global context to make sure that those names are out there.
Ms. Normandin: The Canada Council for the Arts has launched, with its new budget, the Digital Strategy Fund. One of the components of that fund is for digital literacy, because even though the young generation is very agile with technology, we have noticed that the cultural sector, the artistic sector, has not taken the digital avenue yet and is dragging behind a bit. Hopefully with the support of that fund the artistic milieu will make progress on the digital front and will learn how to use it and to use it better for making discoverability of Canadian arts and culture a bit easier for Canadians and for the world as well.
The Chair: We have a short time for second round.
Senator Cordy: Thank you very much. I’m interested in the National Arts Centre Foundation and the work that you do, specifically the support for the National Youth and Education Trust. I used to be a teacher in my other life, and it seemed whenever there were cuts by a school board or by a province, it was always music and visual arts programs that were cut first, unfortunately. I wonder if you could tell us what kinds of things the National Youth and Education Trust does. It says that it brings the arts to young people across Canada.
Ms. Watson: Thank you for that question. The National Arts Centre started probably close to 50 years ago. For the first sort of 20 years of our history, we were about performance, and the last decade or so was about education and making sure that we put as much emphasis as possible on education. For example, if we’re doing a tour of the orchestra, we don’t just go into a city and play a concert and go home. We go in and we work.
We did a tour last year across Canada, including stops in Nova Scotia. We have a rich program of education during those tours. One of the most amazing events that we did was in Eskasoni. We took the NAC Orchestra to the reserve on Eskasoni, which is where Rita Joe, the late great poet — and that is one of the women we featured in this multimedia work called “Life Reflected.” So we went to Eskasoni and worked for a couple of weeks beforehand with the local community, engaging with them on the history of Rita Joe, getting them to respond in their own way to the project that we were doing, and we discovered some amazing talents there. It culminated with a concert. They don’t have a concert hall in Eskasoni, but we played in the hockey arena. They cleared everything out and brought in the orchestra, and the entire community came out. There were tears down people’s faces because they felt that we had heard her story and we were doing it justice, so that was quite a fantastic moment.
The National Youth and Education Trust is a funding vehicle that the National Arts Centre uses to pay for arts education initiatives across Canada. For example, in Atlantic Canada right now, and it just started last year, we have something called the Music Alive Program, and we do it currently in Nunavut, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and the four Atlantic Canadian provinces. We pay teaching musicians to go into primarily remote and rural classrooms that don’t have music programs. We help bring art and music into classrooms.
It’s not the be-all and end-all. It’s a big country. We would like to be able to do more. As I said, we’re not national yet. The longest period we’ve actually been is up in the North. We’ve got quite an involved program in Nunavut, in multiple communities in the North, which is working really well. And as I said, it just started to roll out in Atlantic Canada last year. We’re very proud of Music Alive in different parts across Canada.
We also do local things here in Ottawa. Obviously we have theatre for young audiences, and we have concerts for young people and things like that. That is how we fund that. Donors help us make that possible.
[Translation]
Senator Cormier: I would like to follow up on Senator Massicotte’s question about how culture can serve diplomacy. You mentioned the events in Edinburgh. These are major cultural events where a lot of artists perform. We are trying to understand how the arts and culture can contribute to diplomacy.
Would you agree that the Canadian government and the business community could be more opportunistic? They could use these events to showcase artists, while also including business people and government officials in meetings so Canada could be engaged in areas other than culture.
For example, Acadie is represented at the Festival Interceltique de Lorient, a major music festival in France. The province of New Brunswick takes advantage of this cultural event to hold diplomatic and business meetings. Would you agree that, as part of a cultural diplomacy strategy, we have to ensure not only that artists do their job, but also that governments and the business sector utilize this cultural strategy to conduct business?
Ms. Normandin: I completely agree. There are other, smaller trade missions organized by the Department of Canadian Heritage that have started including the performing arts recently. I think the way forward is to work more collaboratively rather than separately. Working in silos can be beneficial in the very short term, but in the long term, having a diversity of stakeholders travelling around the world will make it possible to develop larger networks, not to mention the synergies and the group effect. If we arrive somewhere all alone without knowing anyone, it is more difficult. If we arrive as a group wearing the same t-shirt, so to speak, the impact is stronger and there is a stronger multiplier effect.
Mr. Cornuau: We also have to raise awareness about what we do. Thee business and political communities will then be able to use that momentum rather than simply having artists join a political or business initiative all of a sudden. At some point, we have to be able say that there is a concentration of Canadian artists at a specific place, and ask why the business or political communities are not represented there. It might be necessary to promote our work more.
Some countries are masters in the art of promoting their presence abroad. I am thinking of smaller, very isolated countries. Australia has a strong presence at all kinds of events and promotes its activities. We could follow their lead to achieve a much greater presence and raise the profile of what we are already doing.
Senator Cormier: In conclusion, I would like to thank the CITF once again. Theatre is an art of civic dialogue. I would like to turn to Senator Dawson and the very important question he raised. You know that Robert Lepage’s play Kanata will be staged at the Théâtre du Soleil after all, under the direction of Ariane Mnouchkine. The artists will incorporate into the performance reflections on the issues raised in the controversy.
Long live the theatre! Thank you for your contribution.
[English]
The Chair: I’m not going to comment on where you’re going with that, but thank you to our witnesses for the contributions they have made.
We’ve explored a lot of areas. One that I think we need as a committee and perhaps the artistic and cultural community has to pay attention to is we’ve spent decades creating art, music, whatever, and we’ve channelled people using what we thought were modern techniques, and that was international travel, et cetera. Young people today are finding their way internationally and nationally in all the new digital ways. They no longer look to peers. They sometimes create in very isolated places, and then they’re instant successes in unusual places in the world and internationally.
So I don’t think we’ve fully explored where we’re going when we’re talking about internationalism, and it really is the digital. Concepts of creativity are very different for young people.
If you have any thoughts that you want to add, please do, any contribution of how we can address that beyond just digital savvy, which is what all of us want because we grew up in a different world. When I start talking to the very young, I’m finding that their expressions and objectives are very different than mine. Sometimes they’re only five and they’re talking to me, and sometimes 25, and I’m still not in their world.
I think that’s one of the challenges you have and one of the challenges we have. So anything else you can contribute beyond what you’ve given us today would be extremely helpful.
Thank you for your presence, knowledge, experiences and work.
Ms. Normandin: Thank you so much.
I’m going to leave with you a few books about CITF that were produced 10 years ago for the twentieth anniversary. They are only available in French. We can send more if you’d like.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senators, I will just have a moment with Senator Massicotte, my new deputy chair.
(The committee adjourned.)