Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Issue No. 50 - Evidence - Meeting of October 4, 2018
OTTAWA, Thursday, October 4, 2018
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade met this day at 10:30 a.m. to study the impact and utilization of Canadian culture and arts in Canadian foreign policy and diplomacy, and other related matters.
Senator A. Raynell Andreychuk (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, welcome to the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade. The committee has been authorized by the Senate to study the impact and utilization of Canadian culture and arts in Canadian foreign policy and diplomacy, and other related matters. Under this mandate, the committee is pleased to continue its study today.
Before we turn to our witnesses, I would ask senators to introduce themselves.
Senator Bovey: Patricia Bovey, Manitoba.
[Translation]
Senator Saint-Germain: Raymonde Saint-Germain from Quebec.
Senator Massicotte: Paul Massicotte from Quebec.
[English]
Senator Oh: Victor Oh, Ontario.
The Chair: I am Raynell Andreychuk from Saskatchewan.
We are very pleased to welcome to the committee representatives from Canadian Heritage to talk about the new Creative Export Strategy for creative industries. We thought it was important to get a more in-depth understanding of what the policy is as we are studying the whole area.
We do caution you that we may bring you back toward the end of our study as one of key agencies along with Global Affairs. We may have further questions for you.
We thought this was a good opportunity to have some time to understand what is your new initiative and at what stage of the process you are in at this time.
Welcome to the committee.
[Translation]
Julie Boyer, Director General, International Trade, Canadian Heritage: Thank you, Madam Chair, for offering me the opportunity to come before you today. My name is Julie Boyer, and I am Director General of International Trade at the Department of Canadian Heritage. I am accompanied today by my colleague Michel Sabbagh, Director of the International Trade Policy Directorate.
[English]
I am pleased to appear today to discuss the Creative Export Strategy and its various components.
[Translation]
On June 26, 2018, the Government of Canada announced an investment of $125 million over five years to implement the Creative Export Strategy. The strategy includes the launch of Creative Export Canada, a new funding program that aims to help Canadian creative industries stand out in the global market, and a number of other elements such as additional investments in existing programs to favour exports, increased capacity at Canadian Heritage and Global Affairs to support creative entrepreneurs in their exporting efforts and funding to amplify the presence of Canada’s creative industries internationally through key trade events and trade missions.
[English]
The Creative Export Strategy is built around three core pillars. The first aims to boost export funding in existing Canadian Heritage programs with a total of $5 million a year over the next five years. Increased export-specific investment in current funding programs at the Department of Canadian Heritage will stimulate the export and international promotion of creative works.
Programs that benefit from this additional funding include the Canada Music Fund, the Canada Book Fund, the Canada Periodical Fund and the Canada Arts Presentation Fund. Telefilm Canada also receives annual funding from this pillar to produce additional audiovisual co-productions.
[Translation]
The second pillar is to increase and strengthen the presence of Canadian creative industries abroad by investing $6 million a year. Global Affairs Canada has increased its capacity to implement the strategy by hiring locally engaged staff in 14 Canadian embassies and consulates located in priority markets, to provide direct services to Canadian creative clients ready to do business abroad. The funding to Global Affairs Canada also provides $1.75 million yearly to the Mission Cultural Fund, which you have heard about in previous hearings, and renewed funding of $250,000 per year to the Integrative Trade Strategy Fund.
For specific details about the implementation of this pillar of the strategy, I would invite the committee to reach out to our colleagues at Global Affairs Canada.
[English]
The third pillar aims to establish a new creative export funding program and build relationships needed to make business deals with $14 million a year. The newest program at Canadian Heritage, Creative Export Canada, is the only program designed and created specifically to fund export-ready projects from Canada’s creative industries. The program’s budget is $7 million per year for the next five years, and it supports international discoverability and monetization of Canadian creative projects.
It is based on a competitive funding process that is industry agnostic, focused on supporting projects that have potential for a high return on investment. It will also consider favourably projects with interesting partnerships and innovative ideas.
The program has broad eligibility criteria. All creative sectors from audiovisual to interactive digital media, music, performing arts, publishing and visual arts. For the first time ever at Canadian Heritage, design can apply.
The program’s first application deadline was September 14, 2018. At closing, 109 applications had been received for a total request of $31 million in the first year and $30 million in the second year. We are expecting an equal or even larger intake for the second cycle for which the application deadline is November 16, 2018.
[Translation]
An amount of $1.6 million per year is dedicated to enhancing the participation of creative industries in trade events and organizing trade missions in key markets. Canada’s participation in large-scale trade-related events provides ideal opportunities to facilitate business-to-business relationships, showcase and promote creative industries, and develop greater knowledge of both regional and specific market trends.
Recent examples of Canada’s participation in such events include Gamescom 2017 and the Berlinale International Film Festival, both in Germany, where Canada was featured as the focus country, as well as the 2018 Mexico City Film Industry Market, or MICA for short, where Canada was the first-ever guest of honour country. An important example of our partnership-building engagements is the first-ever Canada-Mexico Culture and Creativity Working Group, under the auspices of the Canada-Mexico Partnership, which is working on the implementation of over a dozen joint projects.
Creative industries trade missions are now a key activity of the Department of Canadian Heritage in implementing the strategy.
[English]
Excellent results were achieved during the minister-led April 2018 creative industries trade mission to China. Some 56 companies from several cultural industries were part of the delegation and signed over 23 agreements valued at $125 million in trade deals. That number is still growing.
To build on this momentum, we are working on follow-up meetings with China on the margins of key trade events in the coming year and potential future cross-sectoral cultural trade missions.
[Translation]
Another major undertaking of the Department of Canadian Heritage under this approach has been to accept the invitation to be the guest of honour country at the 2020 Frankfurt Book Fair, the publishing industry’s largest trade fair.
This is in line with the Government of Canada’s approach to build its creative industries at home and abroad. We hope this presence at the Frankfurt Book Fair will build long-lasting relationships with the German-speaking market, mainly for the book industry, but, ultimately, for all Canadian creative industries.
[English]
Although cultural diplomacy is not a core objective of the Creative Export Strategy, it does, however, strengthen government-to-government relationships through trade within its creative sectors. The Creative Export Strategy represents an important investment toward supporting Canadian cultural creators and their success on the international stage. It is our view that this enhances Canada’s cultural diplomacy efforts. It also brings Canada’s stories and creative power to the world, thus enhancing Canada’s global recognition.
[Translation]
In conclusion, the Department of Canadian Heritage plays a key role in the promotion of Canada’s image, principles and values, as well as its interests at the international level. While the Creative Export Strategy focuses on international creative trade, these efforts enhance and complement cultural diplomacy efforts by bringing Canada’s creativity to the world.
[English]
We look forward to this committee’s report as we continue our efforts in implementing the Creative Export Strategy. Thank you.
The Chair: I have a few clarifications. First, you used the term “creative industries.” I am sure somewhere in our papers and websites, et cetera, we can find it; but it would be helpful if you would define creative industries for these purposes. Does that term change from one pillar to the other?
Second, how did you promote or advertise or reach out? In the numbers of participants that you say have applied and will get funding, are they existing creative industries, or did you reach out to new industries that you were not in touch with? Is there a panel? Who decides who gets the money to bring out the criteria, as you have said? Is there a follow-up?
It’s the process I am concerned about and definitions. If you can’t provide that today, perhaps you could give the clerk the information.
Ms. Boyer: I am very prepared to answer that question today. It’s my pleasure that you’ve asked the question.
In terms of defining creative industries, it is a slightly broader definition than the traditional cultural industries because it includes design. To be clear, let me define for you what we mean by creative industries. We include audiovisual, interactive digital media, music, performing arts, publishing, visual arts and design.
For design, we are limited to exhibit design, fashion design, product design, public art design and urban design. We use the same definition for all three pillars of the Creative Export Strategy.
In terms of promotion, I would like to turn to Michel Sabbagh, who has worked diligently on the creation of a website for the Creative Export Strategy.
Michel Sabbagh, Director, International Trade, Canadian Heritage: That is correct. On the day of the announcement of the Creative Export Strategy on June 26, there was also the launch of the Creative Export Strategy website that contains extensive information on the new Creative Export Canada program, as well as information on past and future trade missions so that stakeholders are aware of our future plans and of past results achieved.
The website also contains information about Government of Canada programs and services in support of creative industries, whether it is financing, information, or links to the Trade Commissioner Service at Global Affairs Canada. The whole breadth of support available to creative industries is available on that website as well.
Ms. Boyer: If I may continue answering the other parts of your question, Madam Chair, and to build on Michel Sabbagh’s answer, in addition to a comprehensive website we have a strong social media campaign. We have made specialized efforts to reach out to those groups that are broader than our traditional cultural industries: associations and stakeholders that could help us promote it on their websites and through their mailing lists of members.
In terms of new clients, I think our efforts in promoting the program have been successful. In assessing the 109 applications received to date for the program, we determined that 60 per cent of the applicants were new applicants to Canadian Heritage. I think we’re growing our broad base of interested parties in creative industry export support.
In terms of deciding, we have struck a committee within Canadian Heritage that includes representatives or experts from the different subsectors of those creative industries, some of our portfolio agencies and regional offices. They are currently going through the applications to determine which ones are eligible to proceed to the evaluation phase.
For follow-up, this process is the first call for proposals for the Creative Export Canada program. Once we determine the scope of the project, applicants that do not fit within the criteria of the Creative Export Canada program but could apply to the EDC, Export Development Canada, or other programs within the Government of Canada, we will make a point of referring them to those institutions and organizations.
I hope I was comprehensive in answering your questions.
The Chair: I have a few follow-up questions, but first I will turn to senators for questions.
Senator Saint-Germain: I am very pleased, Madam Chair, that you asked my first questions. I have many questions, so I will be able to ask all of them.
[Translation]
Thanks to both of you for being here today and giving your presentations. I’m especially interested in the third pillar of the export strategy. Fourteen million dollars a year isn’t very much. The focus is on supporting projects with significant return on investment potential. What criteria do you use to assess that potential?
Ms. Boyer: Thank you for the question. We broke down the funding into different areas, with the Creative Export Canada program having a total budget of $7 million. We set aside $1.6 million to support creative entrepreneurs and industries through international trade missions and delegations on the fringes of key trade events. We allocated $1.4 million a year until 2020 to the Frankfurt Book Fair team, which is working with the industry in preparation for Canada’s participation as the guest of honour. We earmarked $1.3 million for the purchase of statistics and data analysis contracts for international markets. Lastly, we put $2.7 million towards the team that supports the implementation of the Creative Export Canada program. That totals $14 million.
As for how we evaluate the applications received under the Creative Export Canada program, we ask applicants to provide a clear export plan that includes target markets and potential revenue from the sale of creative products abroad. That’s the primary consideration in assessing the return on investment of a particular project. It is up to funding applicants to demonstrate that their products will sell in the target market.
Senator Saint-Germain: I gather, then, that the funding will go primarily towards travel and accommodation, in the case of trade missions, and the logistics or administration associated with the projects. Is that correct?
Ms. Boyer: I should point out that we do not cover travel expenses for trade mission delegations. Members have to cover their own costs. The Department of Canadian Heritage assumes that, if they are export-ready, they have to invest in bringing their export projects to fruition.
We fund a service that connects members with their trade counterparts in the international market. We work with our local embassy to organize the events and make sure that, once abroad, the trade delegation is able to meet with experts in the field seeking Canada’s creative services.
Senator Saint-Germain: Wonderful.
I have one last quick question. I notice that your target cities include only one French-speaking market: Paris. For language-related industries, do you take that specific factor into account in other markets? Do other government programs promote French-language creation in Canada?
Ms. Boyer: We take French-speaking markets into account. On top of the support at the consulates and embassies, which have a list of 14 specific markets, we have a yearly strategic engagement plan that focuses on Asia during the first year of implementation. That falls under the $1.6-million budget set aside for trade missions. In 2018-19, the focus will be on Latin America, specifically, Mexico and likely two South American countries. The third year, we’ll be focusing on Europe.
By the third year, we’ll have gathered considerable data, which will help guide our funding decisions for the fourth and fifth years. For the fourth year, we have tentatively decided to target North Africa’s French-speaking markets to expand our reach leading up to our participation at the 2020 Frankfurt Book Fair as the guest of honour country. We’ll probably also provide support to the book industry, which is already making significant strides in the market, to strengthen the industry’s presence and increase sales in North Africa.
On top of that, in preparation for our participation as the guest of honour country at the Frankfurt Book Fair in 2020, we are really helping the French-language publishing sector, both within and outside Quebec, by supporting its export efforts in the European market, including Germany. Half or more of the sector’s book exports go to Europe, especially the French-speaking markets.
Senator Saint-Germain: Thank you.
[English]
Senator Bovey: Thank you very much. While I am encouraged that the strategy has been announced, I am perturbed at the amount of funding. It seems very low to me.
Let me ask you about the statement you made on the last page of your presentation wherein you said that the Creative Export Strategy strengthened government-to-government relationship through trade within its creative sectors.
Why is it that way around from the Ministry of Canadian Heritage not talking about strengthening government-to-government relationships through creative sectors to enhance trade? Why is our minister responsible for culture turning it around and putting the creative side in second place?
Ms. Boyer: I focused in my remarks on the trade side of our efforts in the department because they are fairly new. We are getting back into the business of trade, but let me reassure you that we have ongoing engagement and promotion with our creative partners across Canada. We do that on a cultural diplomacy front as well. We showcase Canadian artists and creators abroad.
My focus, of course, was on the trade component which is new and important, I would add, as you mentioned in your first comment.
With the Creative Export Strategy we have dedicated an amount of approximately $90,000 to Statistics Canada to start looking at culture and sports trade data. The data revealed that the economic contribution of the cultural sector is 2.8 per cent of our gross domestic product. It supports 650,000 jobs and equals 3.1 per cent of our total Canadian exports abroad.
With that amount in mind and the size of revenues of $54 billion generated every year, it is important not to overlook the trade component or contribution to our cultural efforts abroad. This is something we are broadening from cultural diplomacy to include cultural trade.
Senator Bovey: They are inextricably linked. I guess that is what I am looking for. Trade is certainly enhanced by the cultural community, from what we have been hearing from all the witnesses. That platform needs to be and I hope it will be strengthened.
We heard yesterday from Ms. Lambert who has done a huge amount of work internationally over many decades. She feels that we needed to change our focus from export to exchange. In her remarks, she certainly underlined the importance of people.
Could you talk about this program with regard to the concept of exchange? I understand the concept of export, and I think that is really important. However, exchange obviously involves services and joint partnerships as well.
Could you talk about that and about people? At the same time could you address why there wasn’t a peer jury from the sector as opposed to decision makers within government?
Ms. Boyer: Export and exchange of people go hand in hand. Without that first initial contact and relationship being built, it is difficult to expand trade at all into new markets. Most of the trade mission operations in the team focus first on building government-to-government relationships within the industries before leading to trade results or concrete trade missions.
We recognize that the two go hand in hand. We work closely with our portfolio partners, provinces and territories, associations and all of our creative industry stakeholders to help that happen. It is a precursor to trade. It is not left behind in the strategy. It is very much an important component of the Creative Export Strategy.
In terms of peer jury, I take your comments. It is a new program. We are not sure of what type of applications we will receive in the first call. This is a process that can be adjusted as we go. We are only in the first year of rolling out the strategy, so we hope to take this recommendation and see how it could apply in the future.
Senator Oh: I want to clarify that you are Director General of International Trade at the Department of Canadian Heritage. It has nothing to do with Minister Carr at the Department of International Trade Diversification, right?
Ms. Boyer: No.
Senator Oh: Your three categories add up to a total of $25 million, and you say that you were successful. How much have you spent every year of the $25 million to promote this program?
Mr. Sabbagh: Do you mean in terms of creating the website?
Senator Oh: Whatever. You promote every year. You go to international fairs and all this. Now you are going into third year, right?
Ms. Boyer: No. This is the first year.
Mr. Sabbagh: This is the first year of implementation of the Creative Export Strategy. There were two years of funding under the Budget 2016 announcements. They concluded on March 31, 2018.
Senator Oh: Do you have any estimate of how much you are spending of the $25 million? It’s important that you have the funding.
Ms. Boyer: My first answer is that we never exceed the $25 million allocated to us per year. We are in the very early months of implementing the first fiscal year, so we are not close to that $25 million. We still have to allocate the first year of the $7 million allocated for the Creative Export Canada program.
This is something we will be in a better position to provide you as of March 31, 2019, the end of our first year of implementation of the strategy.
Senator Oh: How much per application can they get in funding?
Ms. Boyer: We will see. We’re still in the process of evaluating. It is clear to us that demand was very high, exceeding by three times the available funds for the Creative Export Canada program. We are very carefully evaluating those proposals to choose the ones that will have the best export plan, the highest chance of success in international markets, the highest return on investment, and the component of innovation.
We are also evaluating a diversity criteria for bonus points in terms of proactive actions to prevent harassment in the workplace, to support gender and visible minority representation, decision making and leadership roles.
Once we’ve done that assessment, we will invest $7 million for the first year. Some of those projects are able to ask for funding for two years, so we will carefully assess how much we can provide them in the second year to sustain their efforts in international markets while leaving some of that $7 million for the second call of proposals.
Senator Oh: Will your department go ahead and set up Canadian pavilions when we visit international fairs? There are always Canadian pavilions in other countries. Will you do that?
Ms. Boyer: Canadian Heritage no longer receives funding to play that role in international fora. However, I will tell you that through our $1.4 million a year until the end of 2020 we are working on our presence as Country of Honour at the Frankfurt Book Fair. That has a pavilion and Canada will have a pavilion as guest Country of Honour during that fair. That is a unique event and not something we include in our regular business at Canadian Heritage anymore.
The Chair: Would we have the figures for the two-year program that completed before you started the three-year program? Perhaps you could provide that later so that we know how much it was where it was expended. That might be helpful in our assessments.
[Translation]
Senator Massicotte: Thanks to both of you for being here this morning. You really know your stuff, so this is quite informative.
In response to the chair’s question about how the process works, you didn’t say what criteria or objectives the committee used in deciding whether to approve a project. Surely the committee uses benchmarks when weighing all the applications. What are those objectives?
Ms. Boyer: Thank you very much for your question.
We have clear objectives. I have the list here. We consider potential export revenue; potential benefits or spinoff for other creative sectors; the opportunity for other stakeholders to do business in the market; the existence of partnerships, for instance, between French-language and English-language industries, with national or regional associations, or with the private sector; the potential to replicate the project in another market; and project innovation.
Senator Massicotte: In a nutshell, the evaluation criteria are based on the profitability of the applicant’s project. None of the measures or criteria assess the benefits for Canada or cultural diplomacy, or even the financial gain. The decision-making is instead based on the hope that the project will be a success.
Ms. Boyer: My answer to that is twofold. The first consideration is profitability, and that’s precisely the purpose of the Creative Export Canada program. In short, all the criteria are based on the hope that the projects we invest in will be profitable.
Senator Massicotte: Every applicant has to provide that figure. Do you do any follow-up down the line, two years later, say, to compare the projections with the actual numbers?
Ms. Boyer: Absolutely. Evaluating the return on investment and funding outcomes plays a big part in the program. Like the broader Creative Export Strategy, the program is funded for only five years. We would like to see the funding renewed at the end of the five-year period, so we understand how important the results are. Looking at export project outcomes and measuring the actual figures against the projections is paramount to us.
Senator Massicotte: Gaining ground in export markets is often new territory, which makes the figures far from reliable. If applicants know, however, how important profitability is in your decision-making, they might put down numbers that look impressive, without knowing whether they’ll be able to attain them. How do you deal with the tendency people have to exaggerate? I fail to see how you can evaluate the results, even two or three years down the line, given how difficult it is to arrive at those numbers.
Ms. Boyer: Yes, the calculations aren’t exactly straightforward — obviously, we are still in the early stages, but the most effective approach has been to reach out to stakeholders who have taken part in our trade missions and received funding and to ask them whether they’ve benefited or made new contacts. Building international trade relationships takes time. We ask them whether they’ve had any follow-up, signed any contracts or made any sales after meeting with people. That’s how we’ve been able to evaluate projects.
Senator Massicotte: How long after the event?
Ms. Boyer: Immediately after, three months after, six months after and a year later.
Senator Massicotte: Is there a standard form that’s filled in?
Ms. Boyer: Yes. We reach out in writing, through surveys, and by calling people personally. Finding out about the results is essential.
Senator Massicotte: Can you forward us a copy of a standard analysis form?
Ms. Boyer: I think we could provide you with some trade mission reports from years when we began compiling results information. There is an excellent list of what took place in China in April.
Senator Massicotte: Could you provide a sample of a report with very good results and a sample of one with disappointing results?
My other comment has to do with the fact that you change your focus area every year. Having done some exporting, myself, I know that export initiatives take time and require a sustained effort. I don’t see how it’s useful to assist applicants in South America one year and those in Europe, the next. The poor applicant who arrives in South America will have to spend five to seven years implementing their plan before it’s successful. Does it make sense for the program’s target markets to always be changing? Will a Canadian artist be able to produce satisfactory results when they’re being supported for just a year, after which the focus area changes?
Ms. Boyer: Thank you for your question. We’ve considered that at length. Our role in implementing the Creative Export Strategy and providing specific support for market development is to open doors at the government, mission and business levels.
In the case of China, for example, we’ve been very successful at that and we are continuing to see the economic benefits. That doesn’t mean we will forget about China. In our second exporting year, we will continue to support events and meetings with Chinese delegations, but not necessarily with another ministerial mission of the same size and cost, involving multiple cultural industries. If we return to China this year, the mission would likely be targeted and much smaller. It is clear that more benefits have flowed from our first entry into the market. For instance, an animation event focused on interactive video games was held in China. This year, it’s being held in San Francisco. The Vancouver International Film Festival is another example; we realize how popular the audiovisual sector is. We plan to set up business meetings between members of those trade missions or other stakeholders and their Chinese counterparts or potential Chinese trade partners.
Senator Massicotte: How much of the $25 million goes to the artists and how much goes to administration, operating costs, oversight, follow-up and so forth?
Ms. Boyer: Let me look at my numbers. I would say that all additional funding spent on existing Canadian Heritage programs goes to the artists. The $7 million allocated to the Creative Export Canada program goes to artists. The trade mission support is for the artists.
Senator Massicotte: You don’t have any administrative costs. You don’t have payroll for the two of you, no expenses like that.
Ms. Boyer: Yes, we do have payroll : $2.7 million a year.
Senator Massicotte: Does that come out of the $25 million?
Ms. Boyer: That’s for Canadian Heritage. For Global Affairs, it’s $4 million. In all, then, about $6.7 million is spent on administering the program annually.
Senator Massicotte: That means that $18 million actually goes to the artists.
Ms. Boyer: At least $12 million goes directly to the artists. The rest is for the support and services provided to them, but it goes directly to the creators.
Senator Massicotte: So 50 per cent goes to the administration and 50 per cent goes to the artists.
Mr. Sabbagh: During our consultation tours in 2016, we heard that, after the cancellation of the trade routes and promart programs, the creative sector greatly missed the presence of people who could help our creative industries in key markets abroad, meaning in key embassies and consulates. The decision was made to reinstate these 14 people in our key missions in places such as New York, Paris, London and Berlin. We have the list, if the committee is interested.
Yes, the funding is for people, but these people work to support the creative sector by finding contacts and business opportunities, by helping candidates with their export efforts, and by helping us as when we conduct trade missions abroad. They help with the organization on site and they support the Canadian delegation.
Senator Massicotte: In your presentation, you mentioned three pillars. I suppose that, when you referred to the objectives earlier, they applied to the three pillars. The selection criteria apply to the three sectors.
Ms. Boyer: They apply specifically to the Creative Export Canada program. There are no specific criteria for the other pillars.
Senator Massicotte: What are the objectives for the two other pillars?
Ms. Boyer: In terms of export efforts in the existing Canadian Heritage programs, part of the additional funding seeks to support the participation of artists in festivals abroad —
Senator Massicotte: What are the selection criteria?
Ms. Boyer: I’ll need to follow up with the specific programs. We’ll be happy to provide the criteria, which are very well established.
Senator Massicotte: I have one last question. When it comes to the organization, the three pillars and the objectives, how was everything decided? Did a group of artists, as a reference point, discuss the issue and decide that 50 per cent of the budget would cover administration costs and that the money would go to the embassies? Who decided all this? Are the artists heavily involved in these decisions, or are these political decisions?
Mr. Sabbagh: In 2016, we toured across Canada. We met with about 250 members of the creative industries, and with artists from across Canada. We held round tables in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal. We also met with many associations in Montreal.
Various findings emerged. First, the creative industries appreciated the Canadian Heritage programs, but found that the funding available for international projects was often insufficient. This was the basis for the decision to increase the budget for the Canada Music Fund, the Canada Book Fund, the Canada Periodical Fund, the Canada Arts Presentation Fund and Telefilm Canada. We were told that the existing programs were appreciated, but that there may not be enough funding to support international activities.
The second issue, as I mentioned earlier, was the lack of support in missions abroad. This issue was raised a number of times by all the different sectors and in all parts of the country. It was the basis for our decision to reinstate the 14 people responsible for supporting the creative sector abroad.
As for the rest, with the stakeholders, we identified the need to create a horizontal program whose sole purpose would be to support the creative sector. It would have more flexible eligibility criteria than the existing Canadian Heritage programs. It should also be available to new sectors, such as the design and interactive video games sectors.
Senator Massicotte: When you say “we,” whom are you referring to?
Mr. Sabbagh: By listening to what the stakeholders told us —
Senator Massicotte: Who organized all this? You say “we.” Whom are you referring to?
Mr. Sabbagh: Canadian Heritage organized consultations that we conducted together with Global Affairs Canada and the Canada Council for the Arts.
Senator Massicotte: You held information meetings. Did you publish a report to present the findings, and did you ask stakeholders and artists to provide comments?
Mr. Sabbagh: We didn’t publish a report, but we did provide a summary of the conversations.
Senator Massicotte: Is it publicly available?
Mr. Sabbagh: I don’t think so.
Senator Massicotte: You were the ones who concluded that, based on the good information collected and your good sense, you would do X and Y. Is that right?
Mr. Sabbagh: Our role is to make recommendations based on facts. We consulted the industry and we referred to the information collected and our consultations with Global Affairs Canada and the portfolio agencies to come up with a recommendation for the export strategy.
Senator Massicotte: Can we have a copy of your recommendations?
Mr. Sabbagh: What recommendations?
Senator Massicotte: The recommendations that you made to the department after all this.
Mr. Sabbagh: The recommendations are protected, but we can send you the report on the consultations.
Senator Massicotte: Thank you.
[English]
Senator Bovey: Thank you for that information. I want to follow up on Senator Massicotte’s questions.
Going back to the criteria, many of us have served on cultural funding juries in various capacities over the years. As we sat on those juries, we were given criteria with a marking level. I would like to know the percentage points. Is it a 10-point system or a 100-point system? Which points are equal to which criteria so that there is consistency through the decision making? That’s especially important, given that you’re not working with peer juries and it’s an internal department. If you could get us the marking schedule upon which you’re measuring these criteria, that would be very helpful.
Also, are you only looking at immediate dollar returns? How are you measuring longer term intangible gains for ongoing partnerships in the business world, cultural world and social world? How are you measuring those intangible gains? I would be interested in knowing that.
I appreciate that you consulted, but 200 people from Canada’s creative industries are almost no one. It’s huge sector, as you said, employing 3.3 per cent of adult working Canadians. I would argue that the cultural communities in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal are certainly strong, but they are also in other parts of the country. Why did you choose those three communities and not include the Prairies or Atlantic Canada where very strong creative and international work is being done?
How did you choose the 14 countries and with what advance notice is the cultural industry community being alerted as to what it is, or is it almost retroactive? Was Germany chosen because the publishing industry happened to be invited as the guest to Frankfurt, or was Canada’s selection of Frankfurt the reason Canada’s publishing industry was chosen? I would like to know where the cart is, where the horse is, and what kind of advance notice the cultural communities have had of the countries of favouritism.
Ms. Boyer: I will begin with how we’ve selected some of the key markets to focus on. The culture satellite account at Statistics Canada gave us a good starting baseline. It showed us that most of our exports in the creative industries go to the United States at $10 billion a year, to China at $695 million a year and to Germany at $428 million a year. That was a big part of our decision making
We are in constant communication with our stakeholders. We consult through the provinces, territories, associations, our portfolio partners and the Canada Council for the Arts. We take intelligence and information from the Trade Commissioner Service as to where the opportunities and emerging markets are in determining the priorities.
Through all that engagement and consultation, we advise our stakeholders of what are our plans for international engagement abroad so that they can join us in those efforts. They do have advance notice, but that varies between three and six months before a ministerial mission.
Senator Bovey: If I can interject there, your arts and cultural organizations are planning five to 10 years ahead. Three to six months doesn’t really give them the flexibility to be able to engage with a program that will meet your needs. In my years of experience I was always given three to five years’ notice of what the priority countries would be so that my institution could structure the programs accordingly. I caution you, if I may, that three to six months does not give a cultural, digital or creative industry a lot of flex time to be able to participate in a meaningful way.
Ms. Boyer: We acknowledge that challenge, but being in the first year of implementation it was difficult to give more notice. We are signalling now where our regions of focus will be.
The program is really the choice of the creative industries and businesses to select in terms of which market they’re targeting. The diversification within our Creative Export Strategy helps address some of the challenges that we also acknowledge.
Mr. Sabbagh: I want to get back to the 250 representatives that we’ve met. I really feel that we’ve touched on all of the major associations. They certainly felt consulted. That’s what we heard from them. In terms of regional representation, we also involved the 10 provinces and three territories in our consultations. There were regular calls through our federal-provincial-territorial committee at Canadian Heritage. We really involved them.
Yes, we hit the big centres because that’s where most of the cultural activity in Canada takes place. That was an easy and cost-effective way to reach them. We also had phone conversations with our colleagues in Atlantic Canada and the Prairies as well. We called Creative Saskatchewan. We did roundtables in those three cities, but there were many calls across the country. I am confident that we heard good representation from a cross-section of creative industries.
Senator Bovey: The activity in those three large centres is tremendous. On a per capita basis, I challenge you to look at Victoria, Winnipeg, Halifax and Cape Breton because the cultural communities and creative industries base their activities on population and on a per capita basis.
May I again caution you, to be really careful about going out and saying that these are the three most active centres? Yes, there’s lots of activity. I am very proud of the activity in those cities. I have worked with them in many ways. On a per capita basis, there are some very small communities that contribute like the Powell River choral festival. They didn’t come to Vancouver. That’s a huge industry and it reaches out across the world. I say that just as a caution.
Ms. Boyer: I would like to share one interesting fact on Creative Export Canada. We looked at the representation of the submissions we received for this first call. We’re pleased to announce that we have received applications from all provinces and all territories. Granted, the numbers were smaller in the North, but we did have applications from across Canada. In terms of reaching that audience in the promotion of the program, we were successful.
Senator Bovey: To follow up, could we get the marking levels for each of the criteria in the program? It is an important guide for organizations and businesses applying for these kinds of programs. It helps them with the weighting of what it is you’re looking at, rather than just a list that I so often feel is like the 10 commandments: Don’t do this, don’t do that, and don’t do the other. Let’s take a look at what are the priorities and how you are weighing them to assist the organizations and industries coming forward for applications.
Ms. Boyer: It would be our pleasure to submit that to your clerk with our program guidelines as well to provide broader context.
The Chair: I am glad Senator Bovey touched on what is very important. Creative activity is across Canada in small towns and hamlets throughout.
First, in all of your criteria, is there any measure of Aboriginal input? Second, did you reach out to the multicultural community? You’re using websites and all of that. They are some of the most creative activities within our centres, within their own cultural context, and they may not be using your website. Can you reflect on how you touched those communities if we are to really be Canadian?
Ms. Boyer: Absolutely. We’ve worked very closely with our regional offices as well to reach out to the stakeholders in the various regions across Canada. They will receive a pamphlet of the program description and criteria, as well as an overview of the Creative Export Strategy on paper. We are very mindful of that.
In the coming months, we are organizing export development seminars across different centres in Canada. We’re still working on where and when, but this is happening. We’re very mindful that we have all of Canada and a richness of cultural expressions across the country.
Mr. Sabbagh: We also did webinars to explain the new Creative Export Canada programs that are available across the country.
Senator Bovey: Many parts of the North don’t get Internet. Many artists and organizations in the Arctic do not have the capacity to send online applications for these programs. Our challenge is how we reach the parts of the country that are not necessarily reachable with contemporary technology.
The Chair: We’ve studied trade. You have chosen 14 countries. Certainly individuals will gravitate to those areas, but we wanted to diversify trade.
Many creative industries are finding their niche markets all over. The dilemma we found was that the new developing industries, and there are many of them, could not take the time to fill in all the application forms to be in the loop. The pushback was that the more established, well-known companies were the ones who got the attention. If we really want to get into new industries and broaden the circle, we must start working differently.
I almost see this project as becoming a lending institution as opposed to a nurturing institution for the creative arts. I want you to contemplate that. You may be coming back to us at the end of the session, so I would like you to look at that.
Will the locally engaged in the 14 countries be hired, as opposed to elsewhere?
Mr. Sabbagh: Yes, that’s correct. Those are the locations where new locally engaged staff will be hired. It complements the existing support that is already available at Global Affairs. You will note, for example, that Brazil or Australia is not on that list. The reason that is the case is that there is already capacity at Global Affairs Canada in these countries to support creative industries.
With our colleagues at Global Affairs, we also looked at existing capacity in missions abroad and added support in these locations because it made sense. That’s where the priority countries were in terms of creative trade, but that’s where capacity was perhaps lacking.
The Chair: Who chose the 14 countries? I know it was the ministers, but which department made the recommendations? Was it your department?
Mr. Sabbagh: The decisions were taken by Global Affairs Canada, but they consulted with us and with portfolio partners, including the Canada Council for the Arts and Telefilm, to choose these locations.
The Chair: You may be pleased that we have come to the end of your time. We need to understand the new initiative has been put out as we are talking about cultural diplomacy here. It is very important that we understand the breadth and the depth of this project so that we can appropriately comment on it and include it in the whole perspective of what the cultural dimension is or should be in our foreign policy.
Thank you for coming and providing the information. We appreciate your presence today and your providing the information we requested to the clerk?
Honourable senators, we’re ready to proceed with our next panel by way of video conference. I am pleased to have from Halifax, Chris Crowell, Vice President, Corporate Innovation, Volta, as our next witness. Your information and biography have been circulated so that we can use our time efficiently. We generally have an opening statement from our guest, and then the senators will no doubt have questions for you.
Welcome to the committee and the floor is yours.
Chris Crowell, Vice President, Corporate Innovation, Volta: For my opening remarks, I would like to give a bit of a level set on what Volta is, what an innovation hub is and how that is actually changing the nature of work in Canada and workplace cultures. From there, we can establish the basis for a fruitful conversation about how this could impact foreign direct investment and perhaps foreign trade.
An innovation hub is not just a place for tech companies or ICT companies. It’s a place that helps companies that want to embrace new technologies, tech-enabled companies if you will. They come here to start, grow and succeed. It’s a focal point in the business community they serve either within a city or in a region. It is a true community for innovators, entrepreneurs, start-ups, enterprise organizations, technical and creative resources, and the public and private sectors.
If you look at the companies currently residing at Volta, or our alumni companies from Volta, you would see they cut across a full swath of industries. Some would be more what we would consider techie. They would be doing things like microservices on Cloud platforms. Others would be doing marina management or venue management for performing arts, eyeware, contact lenses, veterinarian services, philanthropic fundraising, and the list goes on and on. What they all have in common is they are using artificial intelligence and big data platforms to disrupt business models and change the way that companies in that industry or in their given industry can go to market.
Volta is one of the largest innovation hubs in Canada. Some of you in the room may be familiar with Communitech based in Kitchener-Waterloo, Ontario. We very much follow the model laid out by Communitech. In fact, we have some executives on our team and members of our board that are either current or past associates of Communitech.
We are currently home to 33 resident companies. Each of these companies ranges from the earliest stage with two or three founders and employees up to 25 or 30 individuals working there. We have 37 graduate companies that are still active in the Atlantic Canadian economy. These companies have hired in excess of 500 people. We have over approximately 1,000 network members that will use Volta services or attend programming here on a regular basis. We estimate that we will host 300 events annually now that we have opened our new space. We have had two companies go through the program called the Creative Destruction Lab which helps them raise more money to grow and scale from local investors.
We have had two Volta cohort companies come through. Almost 100 companies from across Atlantic Canada have applied to receive seed funding and become residents at Volta. Our new facility, for which there was an official grand opening last week, is just a hair shy of 60,000 square feet. Given that we officially opened last week, I am happy to report that we are already in excess of 85 per cent full.
Enough about Volta. Let me talk about what is an innovation ecosystem. If left undefined, it can be one of those buzzwords that people hear but maybe aren’t fully level set on what it means. An ecosystem really is all the various players that go into helping companies grow in scale and succeed, not just in their local market but globally. There are start-ups. There are scale-up companies. There are also big companies looking to be more innovative and partner with these smaller organizations. Universities are a key part and government is a key part. Funders, mentors, advisers and service firms all come together in the catalyst that is an innovation hub like Volta.
The reason larger organizations are looking to places like Volta is twofold. First, disruption is on the rise. If you look at the average lifespan of companies on the S&P 500 Index since 1960, a company in 1960 could expect to be in business on average of 60 years. When we get to 2018, we’re looking at something under 20 years. These companies are being acquired or simply fall into competitive pressures more quickly.
Second, the barriers to entry are dropping as they never have been before. According to CB Insights, if you look at the cost of launching a tech company or a tech-enabled start-up in the year 2000, you were looking at something like approximately $5 million. By 2005, you were looking at a number that was more like $500,000, thanks to the onset of open-source software and horizontal scaling. By 2009-10, that number was more like $50,000 with the advent of the Cloud. A few years later, you’re looking at more in the $5,000 range. As somebody in the business community said to me lately here in Halifax, they reinvented their professional services firm simply by finding the right app to do all of their corporate functions. The point is that those barriers to entry are fading away like never before.
Larger organizations obviously see a lot of threats. They are big and sometimes a little slow moving and sometimes appear to be stuck in old ways, but they have large customer bases and large revenue bases and command attention. Luckily, a lot of those things are actually quite appealing to start-ups that want to work, partner with them or simply hear about their business problems so they can start to develop solutions. Start-ups are agile and fearless. They explore new places and invent. They adapt quickly and they’re always on the move. Big companies look at these smaller organizations and say, “We want a bit of that DNA in our organization as well.”
The key at this point is that we see more big companies starting to set up a presence in innovation hubs like Volta. This has a profound impact on the way these companies operate, their culture, their time to market, the way they do R&D, and even the way a foreign company may look to Canada to establish a bit of a toehold in one of our markets.
This is where we enter these lean, big companies. When it comes to larger organizations, those are the companies that Volta aims to help begin. That means they’re more agile and they make smart decisions. We help them be curious in a smart way. We help them partner. Frankly, there is a bit of a cool factor as well as we look to attract top talent. I am sure the committee is quite aware of where there are many gaps in talent in our economy now.
The role of our hub like Volta is to help these companies with the tools they need, technology being the primary one there, to help with the methods and mindsets that impact their culture, and to help connect them with the talent that either maybe work for or work with these organizations. In many cases, large organizations are actually setting up corporate innovation outposts. We are pleased to have two of those outposts at Volta. Our friends at Communitech have more than two dozen of them, and we hope to welcome a few more in.
Our first outpost was Atlantic Lottery Corporation. On the service you might ask why a lottery would have an outpost in an innovation hub. According to their VP of innovation, working with Volta has enabled them to leverage a start-up culture for their initiatives, to gain access to the right resources and talent, and to thrive in an environment conducive to faster execution. Those are all good things in our economy.
In closing, when you see larger organizations trying to emulate start-ups. It’s no longer business as usual for those large organizations. You also have a place where organizations in the S&P space may open a second office or another office in a city like Halifax. They may say it is a bit easier now because of the flexibility an innovation hub offers. It is no longer one or two people working remotely. Those people working for the organization are part of a community. In a sense their culture is taken care of by being an innovation hub.
That concludes my remarks for the committee. I would welcome any comments or questions senators may have on how this has a bigger impact for the mandate today.
Senator Massicotte: I have been into a couple of what you call innovation hubs, but tell me about yours. In other words, you say you have 6,000 square feet which is nearly fully occupied. People rent a table, chair or small office, but other than space tell me about the added value you bring to innovation for those people occupying space in your offices.
Mr. Crowell: Just to make sure I am clear, the size of our facility is actually 60,000 square feet. We take up three floors in the Maritime Centre in the heart of downtown Halifax. A big part of it is the co-location factor. To your point, if it was just co-location, then it wouldn’t much different from a WeWork or some of the phenomena you see in the U.S. There is a place for that. The start-ups that reside here apply either through the Volta cohort program I alluded to in my opening remarks or by applying directly for residency. The difference between those two things is really the seed funding investment that comes with it.
When they become a resident of Volta, they become part of something called the Volta Bureau that meets every two months. It is made up of their peers, senior members of the Volta team and successful founders from our community. Commitments are made by those companies at the bureau to what they will achieve on their growth journey by the time the next bureau meeting comes along.
When the next meeting comes along, those companies are held accountable for achieving their objectives. If a pattern emerges where they are not, those companies would ultimately have graduated from the facility to make room for companies that have a higher growth trajectory. Along the way, they are getting coaching, mentoring and support.
I like to think that we have done it right here at Volta, but when it is done right a very cooperative spirit arises among the start-ups. One company was very close to closing a few big deals in the United States. Their funding investment was running quite low. Quite frankly, if they lost a couple of their technical resources, they might as well close the doors and go out of business because they would not have been able to recover. Within the community here, other companies were able to help that company out by assigning projects so the couple of resources in question kept getting a paycheque that was then released back to the company once their funding issues were resolved.
In closing, there is that community spirit that really helps these companies move along. The co-location enables the sharing of resources, mentoring, coaching, programming, and access to lunch and learn and skill development opportunities.
Senator Massicotte: If I could just recap, I know there is obviously a benefit to being in the proximity of people who are intellectually innovative. Do I understand correctly that to be allowed to occupy space in your 60,000 square feet, they must have had seed money invested by your group?
Mr. Crowell: No, we don’t take any equity position in any of our companies.
Senator Massicotte: Can anybody become a subtenant of your space?
Mr. Crowell: There are a couple of different options. Let’s talk about how a start-up would come into Volta first. There are two avenues in which they come in. One is to apply for a Volta cohort. That is essentially a pitch competition. We had 58 applicants for that last time around, which was at the end of May.
We selected a short list of 15 based on the resumés of the founders and the business plans presented to us. In essence, it was what a panel of judges thought was the likelihood we could help the companies succeed and grow and have an impact on our economy. Those 15 companies were then invited to do a public pitch. Five finalists were selected, and now they are calling Volta home. By the way, the seed funding on that one came from a combination of Innovacorp, which is a provincial funding vehicle in Nova Scotia for technology companies, generally speaking, and BDC.
Senator Massicotte: In order to qualify, must they have received funding from a third party, or can it just be a bunch of individuals who say I would like to reside in your premises?
Mr. Crowell: There is no requirement. They must have a certain advancement. Their idea has to be developed. One company was successful in coming into Volta through our cohort program that had not developed a prototype yet. They had deep experience in their space. They had flushed out process diagrams and wireframes and knew what they wanted to build.
Senator Massicotte: You have this form of jury, if you wish, trying to choose the most innovative one with the most growth prospects. Based on that subjective jury call, you become eligible to co-occupy space. Is that accurate?
Mr. Crowell: For the Volta cohort program, yes. If you don’t come in through that program, you need to apply to be a resident.
Senator Massicotte: How do you make money? Obviously you are the principal tenant. You are taking that space and dividing it into small parts. You are subtenanting part of that space to those you so choose. Presumably you charge rent higher than what you pay, and you offer innovation or counselling to those firms. Is that a good summary of your business plan?
Mr. Crowell: I should be clear. We are a not-for-profit organization. We have to keep the lights on and we have a mandate that is a not-for-profit mandate. Our funding model is largely what we aspire to be: a public-private partnership. I would invite you to take a closer look at Communitech, which is further along on this journey than we are. There is public money from the federal level of government and the provincial level of government that goes into support. Our sincere objective is to get as close to 50-50 on a public-private funding model as quickly as we can. We will do that through a combination of the rents we charge start-ups, our network memberships with individuals in the community who use the facilities and take part in programming, corporate partnerships and corporate innovation outposts.
Senator Massicotte: Our whole debate in this committee is to study how we can use the cultural industry for the sake of profiting from diplomacy sense external to Canada. Can you tell us that this is great for Canada because we are exporting our culture with significant benefits to Canada financially relative to reputation, brand and so on? What is your contribution there?
Mr. Crowell: Places like Volta are helping to make Canada more innovative. We create attractive environments for foreign direct investment, either in the form of equity funding or other sorts of investments into start-ups. It is also a place where companies could potentially set up shop in Canada. It creates an opportunity that is more accessible for more folks to work in our cities.
Senator Massicotte: What about the cultural side? What’s the take?
Mr. Crowell: That is a harder question. We are changing the nature of Canadian culture. Our start-ups are doing a whole full swath of things. Some would be more applicable to culture industries; others less so. We are enabling companies that would have a cultural bent to scale and go to market more quickly.
Senator Massicotte: Give me a couple of examples, if you don’t mind.
Mr. Crowell: We have a company called Side Door, for instance. Side Door is trying to match performing artists with venues. I don’t mean the usual venues such as a concert hall, but perhaps a book store or a private residence where concerts or live art performances could be held.
Senator Bovey: I am going to go straight to the world of arts and culture which is the focus of our study, as my colleague has said.
Canadian cultural industries have an increasingly large place in the world. There are more and more cultural products in digital format. Can you tell me how your company is enhancing that?
Mr. Crowell: Volta is in the early stages of its own journey. One of the things we are looking at now is a partnership with other local stakeholders and the possibility of creating an AR/VR or augmented reality and virtual reality lab. Last night on CBC, I saw the concept of an ocean school, with which I have to admit Volta has not been directly involved in Nova Scotia. The idea of an ocean school was to use AR/VR technologies in partnership with the National Film Board of Canada to create an immersive type of experience for underwater and other related oceans environments.
That is a tremendous example of where leading edge technology can be used to further a cultural mandate or outcome. If you asked me today whether Volta has directly been part of that type of thing, nobody has come to us yet with that. As I said, we are looking at the possibility of working with other local stakeholders to advance an AR/VR type of facility here to create additional capacity.
I agree and acknowledge that the trend of technology is becoming increasingly disruptive across industries, in particular with cultural industries. There is untapped potential for places like Volta to impact our arts and culture in a way that marries the creative side the arts can bring with some of the entrepreneurship and innovation that start-ups across a breadth of verticals offer.
Senator Bovey: I will start blending cultural industries and technology shortly, but if our study was focused on technology diplomacy, what would be your goals and your actions?
Mr. Crowell: It probably becomes a little more straightforward at this point in the evolution of Volta. We are a catalyst for talent. We are an aggregator for companies that are growing and scaling. We are a showcase for what creative, innovative entrepreneurs and often young people are doing in our community. In Volta’s case, we span outside of Halifax, across Nova Scotia and across Atlantic Canada in many cases.
I can see an easy evolution for what we do to provide a landing spot for companies that want to come to Canada, take advantage of the talent and set up an office here. Perhaps it could be even an immigration type of play where companies could easily set up an office, bring foreign talent into our company and have a base of operations for their organization that is not an island away from the parent organization but is part of the community hub where there are programming and social activities and where it can integrate into the mainstream business community.
The Chair: To follow up on that, you are looking to support people who have ideas and want to mobilize those ideas, if I understand your presentation. You are giving them a platform which in the culture and arts communities is to encourage them to think differently about their role and how they disseminate their capabilities,both in Canada and around the world.
Mr. Crowell: I think that is an excellent summary. We often refer to innovation as a product of random collision. One the challenges that cuts across a full swath of verticals within Atlantic Canada is our lack of scale relative to some of the larger centres and provinces in Canada. Hubs like Volta have a particular importance for us because we are able to create some artificial density in the heart of one of our larger cities, granted. We are bringing people together who have different backgrounds and perspectives. Interesting things happen then. I can see a growing presence for folks that come from what I would broadly define as the creative industries. Only good things will happen if you connect somebody with deep technical talents with somebody who has an artistic vision. There is certainly a presence and new things will occur.
We focused a bit on how our start-ups come in and how our support scales up. We also have programs like our Volta Academy initiative that really aims to help. At the end of the 11-week or 12-week program, somebody who didn’t have a business background at all could have fleshed out an idea, turned it into a pitch, so to speak, and potentially presented it for investment in any source that may be out there.
The Chair: Recently I have been looking at young people in my province of Saskatchewan who find new and creative ways of disseminating their capabilities or their talents that perhaps we hadn’t even dreamed of 20 years ago. You are saying that we should really start thinking of culture and art as part of our community in new and creative ways. We might bring together an artist and a tradesperson on the fact of how do you do business, how do you disseminate and how do you grow. You have a very interesting venture in Halifax. We will have to contemplate within our study those perspectives that you have brought to our attention.
On behalf of all senators I thank you, Mr. Corwell, for your video conference. We were able to complete it without interruption. That is the first technology success we’ve had in this short time. We trust that we will do justice to your comments in our report.
(The committee adjourned.)