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Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples

Issue 8 - Evidence - June 1, 2016

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OTTAWA, Wednesday, June 1, 2016

The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 6:55 p.m. to study best practices and on- going challenges relating to housing in First Nation and Inuit communities in Nunavut, Nunavik, Nunatsiavut and the Northwest Territories.

Senator Dennis Glen Patterson (Deputy Chair) in the chair.

[English]

The Deputy Chair: Good evening. I would like to welcome all honourable senators and members of the public who are watching this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples, either here in the room or via CPAC or the web. I'm Dennis Patterson from Nunavut, Deputy Chair of the committee, and I have the pleasure of presiding today as the chair in Senator Lillian Dyck's absence.

I would now like to invite my fellow senators to please introduce themselves.

Senator Moore: Thank you, and welcome everybody. I'm Wilfred Moore from Nova Scotia.

Senator Watt: Charlie Watt from Nunavik.

Senator Oh: Senator Oh, Ontario.

Senator Enverga: Tobias Enverga from Ontario.

Senator Raine: I'm Nancy Greene Raine from B.C.

Senator Tannas: Scott Tannas from Alberta.

The Deputy Chair: Our mandate as a committee is to examine legislation and matters relating to the Aboriginal peoples of Canada generally. This evening we continue to hear testimony with respect to our Northern housing study. We have been studying best practices and ongoing challenges relating to housing in Inuit communities in Nunavut, Nunavik, Nunatsiavut and the Northwest Territories.

This evening we have a panel that I'm very happy to welcome. First, from Nunavut Tunngavik Inc., we have Jeannie Arreak-Kullualik, Director of the Social Cultural Development Department; and Adla Itorcheak, Policy Analyst on Housing.

We also have, from NCC Development Limited, Nunavut Construction Corporation, Mr. Clarence Synard, Vice President; and from Kent Homes, Mr. Ray Girouard, Director of Commercial Sales; and from J. D. Irving, Limited, Mr. David Saucy, Vice-President, Construction and Equipment Division and Mr. David Irving, Director of Business Strategy, Construction and Equipment Division.

I believe we are going to hear first from Nunavut Tunngavik, and then I would propose that we hear from NCC Development and Kent Homes, and then we'll have an opportunity for questions from senators, if that's agreeable.

I should just mention, colleagues, that we were to consider the Jay Treaty report tonight. It's completed, but the chair has some concerns about it and some suggestions, so we are going to circulate it again to members and invite you to give any comments to the clerk, and we'll finalize it at our next meeting, okay?

With that, Ms. Arreak-Kullualik and Mr. Itorcheak, please proceed.

Jeannie Arreak-Kullualik, Director, Social Cultural Development Department, Nunavut Tunngavik Inc.: Good evening. I'm the director of the Social Cultural Development Department at Nunavut Tunngavik. It's the land claim organization that represents Inuit in Nunavut.

Nunavut Tunngavik, which I will call NTI during my presentation, represents about 30,000 Inuit in Canada. Beside me is Adla Itorcheak.

NTI's Social and Cultural Development Department is mandated to issue an annual report on the state of Inuit culture and society under Article 32 of the Nunavut agreement. One of our obligations under the Nunavut agreement is committing to improving the lives of Inuit in Nunavut, especially in regard to Inuit society and culture.

In 2005 we dedicated the annual report to housing needs in Nunavut entitled "Iniksaqattiarniq Inuusiqattiarniq.'' The report translates to having a place of your own, leading a good life. I brought copies for the committee. It has this picture of the man who was living in one of the shacks in Iqaluit at the time when we did the annual report.

The title was chosen, because having a stable roof over your head and a place to stay to feel secure and be productive has a lot to do with your ability to self-determine the kind of life you want to and can lead. The statistics and challenges in the report might be a decade old, but every single one of them is still relevant.

I brought several copies of the report with me. I also brought other reports that focused on health, children, youth, justice and the Inuit Health Survey. This evening we hope to put a human face on the housing crisis in Nunavut so that you can better understand some of the challenges.

We speak for the majority of the Inuit population, the children and youth, who are 24 years of age and younger. This group represents 60 per cent of Nunavut's population. They all deserve homes, adequate rooms to do their homework and their own bedrooms to sleep in, without worrying about someone barging in to have their turn to sleep, but the reality is that our children are not adequately housed. Our children sleep in shifts in some households and have no place to do their homework.

It's typical to see mattresses lining the floors in many of our homes. They easily fall behind in their studies because they have not slept or done their work. Many go to school without having anything to eat. It's not surprising that our children suffer from astronomical dropout rates: 74 per cent of Inuit children leave school before graduating.

The housing crisis directly contributes to the grim educational statistics. Inadequacy of the home impacts all members of family in terms of education, employment, health and family planning, and that means a daily life reality for over half of our population. It means that their space, privacy and belongings are invaded on a daily basis, regardless of whether it is a social housing unit, staff housing, privately rented or owned. If we use the figures supplied by CMHC, the Nunavut housing crisis will continue for the next several years, possibly decades.

The biggest housing needs we face are one- or two-bedroom units for single people or small, young families. I would call these the starter homes or starter home ownership houses.

If you can imagine turning 18 and applying for a house and you are told you don't qualify for a mortgage, there is no affordable private rental market, and you are placed at the bottom of the social housing list where you will wait for years, maybe even a decade, before you are given a unit of your own.

Our youth are disenfranchised from the start and the factors affecting the well-being of Inuit children and youth, such as the availability of nutritious foods and reliable child, youth and family services and adequate housing, are beyond their influence or control.

Inuit in this age group also inherit responsibility for leadership of the territory and its people. They will soon have the responsibility for addressing these issues: increasing Inuit employment in government, the socioeconomic sustainability of communities and addressing housing needs.

Inuit care too much to close the door on the people they love, so they allow their grown children, grandchildren, siblings, aunts and uncles to live with them because they don't have a place to go even though they are not really on the tenant list.

This committee has heard extensively about the housing crisis faced by indigenous Canadians, and the similarities are startling despite the vast geographical distances that separate us. We need transitional housing units, co-op housing and more home ownership programs; however, we have infrastructure deficit, and home ownership is a challenge. To qualify for a mortgage you need good credit, financial literacy and a secure income, and it's a difficult web to untangle for some people.

While we need federal infrastructure and housing dollars, we also need to develop Inuit solutions for Inuit, and rest assured that these plans are in development. Social indicators show a slight decrease in crime and violence, that there are programs being created to eradicate poverty and food insecurity, and that our youth are obtaining high school education and post-secondary education.

Despite all of these challenges and barriers I shared with you, Inuit are finding ways to succeed. This speaks volumes to the tenacity and adaptability of our culture. The success or failure of Nunavut hinges on policy decisions made now that can help lay the foundation for the physical, mental and cultural health and well-being of our people.

I will amplify that the majority of our population, over 60 per cent, are under the age of 45. We have to figure out a way to house them all.

The biggest gap we see is transitional housing as they progress or move away from public or social housing into the private market or home ownership. We have to work together to ensure that overcrowding does not continue.

NTI initiated and was involved in creating a 10-year Nunavut housing strategy a decade ago, but that was never implemented. The outcome of that was $100 million funding for housing given to the Nunavut Housing Corporation, and a bit more given afterwards. NTI is willing to commit to create a new Nunavut Inuit housing strategy. We also support the creation of a national Inuit housing strategy.

I will now turn the presentation over to Adla Itorcheak to share his experiences on what Inuit can achieve when given the opportunity to have their own bedroom and a secure home.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you.

Adla Itorcheak, Policy Analyst on Housing, Nunavut Tunngavik Inc.: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to clarify the fact that I was born and raised in Iqaluit. I went to school from kindergarten all the way to grade 12, and during that time I was also living in social or public housing with my grandparents.

What I'd like to turn your focus over to is the fact that, as I was growing up, I had the privilege of having my own bedroom. I was also the only child in the house, so this gave me a great opportunity to do some reading at home, watch TV at my leisure, and went from grade 1 all the way to grade 12.

I want to emphasize how this has affected me, and for this purpose I have copied and sent to you copies of my transcripts from college and university.

What I'm trying to say here is that I believe our children and grandchildren will miss out on a lot if they are denied the opportunity to have their own bedroom so that they can enjoy their own time without any interruption.

I would like to advocate for our governments, whether it's the federal, territorial or regional governments, to really connect the dots between social housing and education.

If a family has enough bedrooms for all of their children, this will go a long way in seeing our grandchildren and children graduate from college and university, much less high school. This is something that my siblings were denied because they did not have their own bedrooms. My classmates were all denied this, and most of them did not graduate. Maybe 1 out of 1,000 graduated.

I lived with my grandparents, and being the only child gave me the opportunity to have my own bedroom for more than 10 years, enough time in my bedroom to study, read and do my homework without any interruption.

This really paid off, and I assure you those marks that you have before you testify to the success that any student can attain if that student has their own bedroom in their own home and all the resources that their parents could give them.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Deputy Chair: Well, I'd like to thank you both for that presentation.

I think this is quite a new angle that we received from you, Mr. Itorcheak. You are a proud graduate with a bachelor of business administration from a fine university, Acadia University, and I think you are telling us that you are the exception and that having your own bedroom was a factor. That's very impressive.

We are going to turn now to people who have thought about building houses affordably, I believe. We will now hear from Mr. Clarence Synard.

Clarence Synard, Vice President, NCC Development Limited: Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to come here this evening, and thank you to the committee for taking the time to hear us.

I have been in Nunavut for 20 years. I started out in Nunavut as a labourer working with my dad, and started to see all aspects of construction. Back in 1995 I believe the numbers were estimated around a shortage of about 700, 800 social housing units for the North. In my 20 years up there, I managed to move up in construction. I became a Red Seal carpenter and am now vice-president of NCC Development. We are 100 per cent Inuit owned. We are owned by all the four birthright corporations, so I got to see the construction from the grassroots, and now I'm seeing it from a management level.

What scares me, in my 20 years in the North, is that we went from about 700 to 800 houses short to nearly 4,000 today. In some way, shape or form, I've helped build over 1,000 houses in my time up there. Companies that I've worked for, and the company that I work for today, were only one small piece of the puzzle of companies up there constructing.

I think one of the largest drivers with the construction up there right now that's making it really difficult is the cost of construction. After leaving the field and going into the office, I understand those numbers a lot more. What's scary is those numbers are growing year after year, which means that instead of getting rid of the housing shortage the problem is actually growing because the costs are escalating.

We have been reaching out for new and innovative ways. These new and innovative ways are important to me. I'm thankful you visited some communities in Nunavut as a committee, and that you saw for yourselves how these houses actually look, how the overcrowding looks.

I didn't move North until I was 18, but when you actually deal with the individuals who live in these overcrowded homes this is what you'll see: This Friday our company will do a payroll and I'll have individuals in my company who will get their paycheque but then come Monday morning they don't have any food to eat because there are 12 other people staying in their house.

There is such a dire need up there right now. We have a lot of social issues in the North, and I firmly and strongly believe that a lot of those issues will be helped with proper and affordable housing.

Some of my best employees from the North are the employees who have their own houses and their own bedrooms. These people are living a more stable lifestyle. I feel, for the Inuit-owned organization that I work for, and as a proud citizen of the territory, I want to help find a solution, and this is why we have come up with what I think is a great solution. It's a modular approach.

First of all, we have such a short construction season in the North. The number of days we get above zero or without precipitation is very limited. The darker it gets, the colder it gets, the more expensive it gets. The numbers just keep adding up, so the opportunity to build homes in a controlled environment was appealing to me. The opportunity to quickly deliver more homes was appealing to me. But then when we actually started running the numbers and saw that the government dollar could go further, I was really intrigued.

It's got to be difficult right now, whether it is the federal government or the territorial government, when you do get an allocation of money, where do you put it? The need is so big everywhere. Which community or individual should benefit from this? I really think our approach has to be to hit the issues and hit them hard.

As vice-president of our company, I'll get a phone call from an individual in Kugaaruk, "Can NCC Development come and build us a house? We have been preapproved for a mortgage.'' I look at their drawings and blueprints. "You know what, you've been approved for a healthy mortgage but unfortunately, because we have no other capital projects in your community, our costs are too high to go in and build you a home.'' We cannot do it on a one-off basis. We need the volume. There is value in volume. It's like anything in life. You go out and buy more, you get more. This is what we are trying to do here.

I am not only here to promote a better way of building and delivering homes in the North for social housing; I want to tap into a whole different market and get into affordable housing as well. It is a lofty goal, but in 10 years if we could get 50 people into their own homes, 50 fewer families that the government has to worry about, we are moving forward and creating community. All of a sudden the people buying their own homes are creating wealth for themselves, something they can borrow against. They are creating wealth for their family, something they can will to their children.

It is an opportunity right now that people in the North don't have, and it's sad. It's really sad. I'm quite passionate about it. I'm actually on the board of Habitat for Humanity in Iqaluit, and I'm proud to say that the Habitat for Humanity Iqaluit has built four homes. In essence, that probably would have been four families in social housing. It's small, but to me it's huge. The thing that really drives me with the Habitat model is the "hand up'' and not the "handout'' model.

We will always have a need for social housing, and I think we have to hit the ground running and put a lot of social housing out there, but let's try to build the communities. Let's try to help the people move forward as well and encourage home ownership. Let's put programs in place that will actually make it happen. Let's make it affordable.

I see a way with an integrated approach with the group I have at the table here with me today. I actually think we can put a dent into the huge issue we have up here, and then the quality of life and a lot of social issues will also benefit. We are not talking about putting houses in the North: we are talking about putting homes, and they are two totally different things in my world.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

David Irving, Director of Business Strategy, Construction and Equipment Division, J. D. Irving, Limited: Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity. Senators, thank you for the opportunity to be here and speak to you about this important issue.

Mr. Saucy and Mr. Girouard and I are representing J. D. Irving Limited. That's a family company that's been around, based out of the Maritimes, out of New Brunswick primarily, for over 130 years. It's a family company, privately held. Over the years it's become quite a diverse organization. If you don't mind, I will tell you a bit about it if you are not already familiar with it.

We have six operating divisions representing different economic sectors. We are integrated into forestry and forest products. We have shipbuilding and industrial fabrication, some shipbuilding contracts with the federal government and a number of other commercial enterprises in that space.

We are in the retail sector and provide consumer products. We have two other sectors which are relevant to this conversation: the construction and equipment division, which Mr. Saucy and I currently represent, and the transportation and logistics sector.

Having a broad array of different businesses creates opportunities for not only vertical integration to supply each other's businesses but to also create horizontal integration, an opportunity to combine complementary services and products and to be able to offer turnkey solutions for important projects, such as housing construction and transportation.

We were approached by NCC. We are quite enthusiastic about being around Mr. Synard, his team and the ideas and passion they have for that important issue.

With the cooperation that we can bring throughout our organization to Mr. Synard's team, we have a good system in place, good infrastructure and a good transportation network to provide a value-added solution, a better way of doing it.

Within the construction equipment division we have two companies that are relevant to the conversation. Irving Equipment provides heavy-lift cranes and transportation solutions. They have approximately 200 or 300 cranes in the Maritimes and the U.S. northeast area.

There is also Kent Homes, where Ray Girouard works. Kent Homes is one the leaders in modular construction in Canada. We have two manufacturing facilities. We focus on different areas: commercial mining camps or hotels, as well as modular solutions for residential applications and the commercial fleet rental units that we'll use for construction sites as temporary shelters.

Kent Homes and Irving Equipment have a long history of working with another company in the transportation logistics division, which is Atlantic Towing.

Atlantic Towing has a number of different types of vessels. We service the offshore oil and gas industry, ports in different oil and gas terminals, but there is a coastal part of our business as well. We transport various types of cargo to the North. We participate in the annual sealift with Nunavut Sealink and Supply for the Baker Lake community.

Over the years, Atlantic Towing has developed a rich history of participating in not only sealifts but unique projects, pilot projects, one-off project cargo deliveries to the North, experience in dealing with the limited infrastructure up there and methods required to deliver complex cargo to remote areas with no wharves or jetties.

We know how to do it up there. We know how to get things to remote locations and get them unloaded safely and installed on site.

Irving Equipment, Atlantic Towing and Kent Homes have all worked on similar housing projects. We've worked together as recently as 2009-10 for the community of Natuashish in Labrador. We delivered modular homes up there, a daycare centre and a few other community structures. We proved out the turnkey solution at that time.

On limited applications with tugs and barges on small scales like a pilot project, it can be very effective. When you tie in working with a local partner to erect the structures and do the finishing touches, roofs and those types of things that NCC would provide, you not only have an end-to-end solution, a factory-to-foundation solution, you have one that really leverages local content and drives local employment.

That's our objective with this pilot project that we will be talking to you about a little further. It is not only about a better home for the North and affordable housing, it's also for the advancement of the aspirations of the local people, employment opportunities and all the benefits that come out of a stable housing solution.

We are quite interested in this. We think we have a way to participate and add value, and we'd like to hear any comments or questions that you might have, anything that we could provide to you at this event.

Thank you for your time.

The Deputy Chair: Is someone going to describe the pilot project that I believe you've developed?

Mr. Saucy, please go ahead. There is a handout that everybody should have.

David Saucy, Vice-President, Construction and Equipment Division, J. D. Irving, Limited: I would like to thank the chair for inviting us to address your committee this evening and for allowing us the opportunity to present our innovative solution to address a very real and growing concern on how to provide better and more cost-effective housing for Aboriginal people in the North.

We are well aware that this issue has been a major concern for the government and for Canadians for a very long time. We believe that we have developed a fully integrated, innovative and cost-effective solution for dealing with the massive shortage of housing in the North.

The difficulty in delivering housing to northern regions in Canada lies not in overcoming any major technical hurdle or challenges. As Canadians, we are well equipped to build solid homes with superior insulation characteristics that perform well in our harsh climate. After all, Canadian housing construction standards and methods are some of the best in the world.

The challenge, however, lies in how to deliver homes to the North in a more cost-effective manner so that it will benefit the largest number of potential homeowners. The challenge is one of scope and size. To tackle this, we need to look at the private sector for innovative solutions.

Our approach is to take a more holistic view and to look at the entire supply chain, from construction, to delivery, to installation, and we believe that modularized construction, as Mr. Synard mentioned, can play a key role.

Modular construction enables the delivery of large quantities of affordable housing within a short construction time frame, which is a key driver to meeting the large demand for affordable housing in the North. However, that in itself is not the entire solution. It is only one element of a fully integrated approach that must be taken.

We have developed a pilot project proposal that we believe can deliver a finished home in various locations in Nunavut at a 20 per cent savings versus current methods.

We have provided this committee with a very detailed proposal. However, for the sake of time, I will describe our approach at a high level as follows: We would build individual housing modules in our manufacturing facility located in Bouctouche, New Brunswick, about 30 minutes north of Moncton. These modules would be built year round in our manufacturing facility which has been building tens of thousands of quality homes for Atlantic Canadians for over 50 years.

Our proposal would include engaging the local Aboriginal communities, such as Elsipogtog located just outside Bouctouche, to create a skills development and training program for young Aboriginal men and women who wish to learn the construction trades and further develop their skill sets.

The modular units would then be placed on a vessel, along with all the necessary equipment to transport and install the housing units on steel piles at the work site. The work would then be turned over to NCC, our partner in Nunavut, who would finish assembling the homes on site using local Aboriginal suppliers, subcontractors and tradespeople.

The solution for driving down costs lies with not just in how to come up with a better building plan or method to construct a home for the North. It lies in how to maximize the efficiency of the entire supply and delivery chains.

Residents in the North can benefit from the same level of quality housing that we enjoy and take for granted only if we find a better way to deliver the product. The key to reducing costs rests in the following: Volume is the key driver due to the high fixed cost of transportation equipment such as barges and offloading equipment including loaders and cranes. The more housing units that can be delivered in a single sealift, the further the cost can be reduced per unit. This allows the equipment to be fully maximized, reducing the cost of capital and the final price for the finished home on a per-unit basis.

If the government can take a more long-term approach to solving this problem, companies in the private sector will have incentive to invest their time and capital to purchase the appropriate equipment to drive down costs even further.

In summary, we believe that our approach, a fully integrated and proven solution, will enable the Government of Canada to address the serious housing shortage in the North, and to do so in a cost-effective manner that not only benefits the Aboriginal communities but also the taxpayers of this country.

Our approach also engages the Aboriginal communities to be part of the solution, whether in New Brunswick at the front end of the construction process, or in the North to help finish the units on site.

We hope to be able to prove out our concept in the near future with a pilot project, and we would welcome the opportunity to return to this committee to debrief on our project success and learnings.

Again, I thank the chair for your invitation. On behalf of our team, I thank all committee members here today for your time and patience this evening. At this time we are open to any questions you may have.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much. The committee had the privilege of visiting Iqaluit to meet some people and see some locations, and also Igloolik and Sanikiluaq. Members have some familiarity, as Mr. Synard mentioned, with the realities they are facing.

We also heard from Mr. Glenn Cousins from Habitat for Humanity in Iqaluit, and one of their national representatives, about the successful project they've undertaken. We also heard from the Qikiqtaaluk Corporation in Iqaluit who talked about a proposal they're working on with the City of Iqaluit to develop Inuit-owned land on the federal road which could be available for social housing as well as some other uses they've designed.

I'd like ask the representatives of NTI, is it possible that Inuit land could be used to build new housing units in communities in Nunavut? The Inuit own quite a lot of land in Nunavut. I wonder if it has ever been considered, in light of this difficult problem, that Inuit-owned land could be used to build new housing units obviously for Inuit. Has that ever been considered, may I ask?

Ms. Arreak-Kullualik: There have been preliminary talks with Qikiqtaaluk Corporation because they are Inuit- owned lands administered by the Qikiqtani Inuit Association, the regional Inuit organization. That would be the furthest developed one, because it has to be inside municipal lands in order to construct houses with municipal services.

One of the options was to have specific Inuit or student housing of that sort, but I'm not privy to the details of those negotiations. It was just preliminary talks, but it is possible.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much.

I'd like to turn to NCC and Kent Homes. We know that the Nunavut Housing Corporation is responsible for delivering housing in Nunavut, and we expect they will be receiving the $77.5 million that was announced in the recent federal budget to build new homes in Nunavut, or social housing.

Could tell us whether you've interfaced with the Nunavut Housing Corporation on this pilot you've developed and to what extent you have worked with them to date, please?

Mr. Synard: Thank you, Mr. Chair, for your question. We have been talking with the Nunavut Housing Corporation for some time on this initiative. These discussions have stalled. However, when we initially had our discussions with NHC on this proposal, there was an allocation of money from the federal government to do housing in the North. The decisions were already made on how to allocate those dollars. Right now is the key time for us to be meeting with them again before this $77.5 million is allocated.

We are not here to replace the Nunavut Housing Corporation. A portion of that money, if we could take it and redirect it toward a pilot project like this, would be of benefit for all Nunavut people if we found a better delivery method. In some way, shape or form we are going to have to do that in collaboration with NHC.

Our intention, at least on the social housing aspect, is that once the houses are done and delivered the houses would go into the NHC stock they already have. The NHC wouldn't have any control over any affordable home ownership, if we could do that as well, but they would have to be a partner in this because they would absorb this into their stock afterwards.

The Deputy Chair: Could you tell us roughly how much we could get under your proposal compared to what it's costing now?

Mr. Synard: As Mr. Saucy mentioned, we are roughly 20 per cent cheaper than the current delivery methods out there. I say that with confidence because, number one, the tender prices are public. They're published. Everybody can see them.

Number two, we have a great grasp on our numbers. The key factor here — that the NHC would face as well — is the value and the volume. In the scenarios that we've run, if we built one five-plex in any three communities in the territory, we are on par based on what NHC is doing now, based on tender prices. If we bumped that up to 6 five- plexes, 2 five-plexes in three communities, we are coming in roughly 20 per cent cheaper to deliver 30 units to three different communities. The reason you can see such a decrease is a lot of the infrastructure, a lot of the equipment, a lot of the pieces we need to deliver our product, has the same cost for one five-plex as for twelve. We just get back to the value and volume scenario again.

Senator Oh: Thank you to the witnesses for appearing before the committee. It's shocking to hear that the housing shortage is so bad. With construction, there are many ways of doing it. Have you considered the portable model of construction that is fabricated and shipped up North for assembly?

Ray Girouard, Director of Commercial Sales, Kent Homes: Thank you, senator, for your question. Are you looking at panelization versus modular construction?

The Deputy Chair: He's talking about shipping a whole house.

Senator Oh: Yes.

The Deputy Chair: We received a submission from an airship company, and they envisioned moving whole houses.

I think that's your question, as opposed to modular.

Senator Oh: Yes. I saw some of the housing projects last week. They could be one to three bedrooms and expanded even further. The whole house could then be built pre-assembled, collapsed and shipped up the North. Would that cost less and save time for your construction costs?

Mr. Girouard: I think I've seen some of the product that you've seen as well, and that is not the same product that we would be looking at supplying. Our methodology and construction methods would be designed specifically for the end-use customer. That kind of a product is not something that we would look at in our delivery method, the collapsible type of units that you have seen.

Senator Oh: They are very solidly built and sit on stilts, like you mentioned earlier.

Mr. Girouard: Right. We would have to look at the concepts that you're looking at. I'm not sure if what you're asking would be considered. I think we would consider it. It's not typically the type of build that we have. We are a more conventional build. The product that you're looking at, I believe, is the kind that's foldable and is built into what we would call a sea container. Is it that type of product?

Senator Oh: Yes.

Mr. Girouard: That's not the methodology that we use in our construction.

Senator Enverga: Thank you for your presentations. I was impressed by your grades. I can see you got great marks.

My first question is for NTI. Terry Audla, President of the Nunavut Housing Corporation, explained that they, along with the Government of Nunavut and other stakeholders, are working on a Blueprint for Action on Housing and will be seeking approval from the Government of Nunavut in October.

Is NTI involved in the process to create the Blueprint for Action on Housing in Nunavut? If so, can you explain to us the extent of your involvement?

Mr. Itorcheak: Yes, the Nunavut Housing Corporation is undertaking a consultation process this week, which they started last month. They're in the second stage of their consultation with stakeholders. NTI, as the representative of the beneficiaries of the Nunavut agreement, is attending these consultation meetings on behalf of the beneficiaries, on behalf of the organization.

As well, other than the Nunavut Housing Corporation, other departments of the Government of Nunavut, other agencies and Crown corporations of the Government of Nunavut, their officials and representatives are also attending those consultation meetings. These meetings are geared towards coming up with the best plans or most efficient or most economical plans and how to overcome certain objectives, obstacles and constraints. I have been attending these meetings for the most part, but these are for consultation and are subject to the decisions of the deputy ministers and assistant deputy ministers of the Government of Nunavut. That is the process so far, and that's what I can tell you.

Senator Enverga: Do you know about the Ten-Year Inuit Housing Action Plan developed in 2004? Do you have any idea about that? If you do, can you tell us the advantage of each one? Is one any better?

Ms. Arreak-Kullualik: The Nunavut Inuit housing strategy developed in 2005 was initiated by NTI in partnership with the housing corporation, but it was never implemented. We had plans identifying the housing needs at the time with the forced growth in population to keep up with that and the overcrowding.

In 2005, we identified that we needed 4,000 social housing units. To keep up with the forced growth, we also needed 2,730 units. We needed over 6,000 housing units to keep up with the growth and overcrowding if we are to follow the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation's core housing needs, where 16-year-old females cannot be roommates with a male and other standards.

Taking all of those standards into consideration, we needed more than 6,000 units immediately; and that was 10 years ago. In Iqaluit, the population has increased to over 7,000. You probably saw all the new housing construction on the new plateau at the Road to Nowhere. That was not there 10 years ago. The Inuit housing strategy for Nunavut was never implemented. Some of it was, but not all of it. The statistics there are still very relevant, and we refer back to that case.

Senator Enverga: You mentioned that it was never implemented. Will you create another blueprint?

Ms. Arreak-Kullualik: Yes.

Senator Enverga: What are the chances that the blueprint will be implemented? Do you have confidence that this plan will be implemented and executed?

Ms. Arreak-Kullualik: The plan could start where we left off 10 years ago. At the time we were working with the housing corporation and we were supposed to set up an Inuit housing trust with the money we got from the federal government, but that never materialized. It went to the housing corporation instead, so we had to abandon that and never pushed for it again until recently. The need is still there, and it's not being addressed as quickly as it should be.

Mr. Itorcheak: NTI came up with this proposal 10 years ago because 95 per cent of the social housing tenants are Inuit, and 57 per cent of the Inuit population in Nunavut also lives in public housing units. Because of this great representation of our people, we felt that NTI, as the head organization, should not only advocate for but actually submit a proposal to the federal government to combat overcrowded and inadequate housing and housing that is broken down.

Because the federal government chose to deal with our territorial government on the housing issue, NTI has not been involved in any way in housing issues for the past 10 years, other than to speak out for our beneficiaries, the Inuit, and their needs for adequate, affordable and spacious housing. It's something that our territorial government cannot grapple with because they don't have the necessary funds. Most of these funds, we understand, come from the federal government through what is called the Territorial Formula Financing. It's up to the territorial government to designate how much of these public monies are earmarked for social housing.

Senator Enverga: For the construction people, we always hear about climate change, the changing weather and the melting permafrost. Would that create more time for your workers to do their work? You said the times are limited. Does climate change create more room for you to build houses?

Mr. Synard: Thank you for your question, senator. Not really. The temperatures are warming up but, as the temperatures are getting warmer, we are getting more precipitation. One thing I witnessed myself this past winter, there was probably the most snow I've seen in Iqaluit ever. Why? Because it's probably one of the warmest winters we've had.

Another large problem we have, not only with climate, but I want to give it to you in this perspective. Take a community like Pond Inlet that's very far north. By the time the ice leaves the shipping channels and we receive construction materials at Pond Inlet, it's already snowing again.

Unfortunately, a lot of times when government funds are allocated towards housing, there's a timeline on it, and that's usually by March 31. We are receiving building materials in September, when every day it's getting darker and colder, and then we are starting a construction project.

In a perfect world, if funding was available for longer periods of time, as a developer I would bring my materials in on the last boats in September, I would have it packaged to sit over the winter, and then you actually start in the spring. I tell you what, this time of year in the North, it's just beautiful. I don't know of anywhere else where you can go and minus 5 is warm, and it's really warm. The power of the sun, the 24 hours of daylight, it's an amazing time to build.

Conceivably, the way the funding agreements and arrangements go now, for the most part, materials that come in September have to be used by March, and we lose out on the May, June, July and August building periods.

Senator Enverga: This system is why you say it's cheaper for you to build houses, because you put all your construction materials and then build in the spring. Is that one of the ways you are saving in the building of houses?

Mr. Synard: That's one way we could. It doesn't always happen that way. Even on the private side when we are using our own dollars. The other concept people have to grasp as well, if we are building a home or apartment building, when that one boat comes into Grise Fiord, not only are you bringing in your foundation materials, you're bringing in your kitchen cabinets, countertops and appliances. We have to buy it all up front to take advantage of that one ship we have coming in.

Whether you're a private developer or the government, somebody has to pay those carrying costs. This is part and parcel of why I like the modular approach, because building in a controlled environment is key. Access to the labour can often be cheaper, and then when the houses hit the beach in a shortened construction season, it doesn't really matter because our time to turn the product over from high watermark in a respective community to turnkey at the house with power connected and a family moving in is about 90 per cent shorter than conventional methods.

Senator Enverga: Does anybody else have any comments?

Mr. Irving: In addition to the controlled environment where we are constructing these homes, we are making them on an assembly line, essentially, so the materials are being purchased in larger quantities, we are getting volume advantages on the purchasing side when we are buying materials. Our labour is in the plant, working in fixed rotations. We can create efficiencies that way as well, creating savings, which is built into the pricing of the house.

That's another important factor that we need to communicate. It's not just that. When you get to the beach, as you say, it is the time savings. Time is money. We have a schedule in this handout here. We have about two weeks from the time we land on the beach to the time we are leaving with the barge.

Senator Watt: Thank you for your presentations. It took me a long time to get to the bottom of what I want to hear. I think I'm hearing it tonight in terms of what you could do during the short construction season.

Mr. Chair, I have a few questions that I would like to put forward, if you could have patience with me.

I think I understand, Clarence, where you're coming from, indicating that the way to handle this issue is to go by the volume. I share that idea with you 100 per cent. Without it, I think you could run into slight problems in terms of the fluctuation of the cost if you don't try to find some way of dealing with the volume.

In terms of volume, it's what is going to make it work. If you are going to try to do it like everybody else does today, and trying to do the construction work in just about every community, then you will not be able to meet your target, even if you want to deal with the volume.

Unfortunately, I think with your scheme some communities will have to wait for their turn, if I understand where you're coming from.

You also have to take into consideration the equipment that you have to move around. For that reason, the housing, the materials and the construction equipment, as you have already specified, the tractors, the graders that you're talking about, they have to go to the same location where those houses are going, if it's going to make any sense economically. You're going in that direction. Am I hearing you correctly on that?

Mr. Irving: Absolutely. Yes.

Senator Watt: Then you also have to think about the transportation side of it, sealift. If I understand correctly, you also have control of the shipping line, the maritime aspects of it. If it's in your company, and I guess even to play with the volume and at the same time dealing with the actual cost that will show up at the end of the day.

Then the construction itself, you're talking about not only bringing innovative ideas into the Arctic but you would also like to train people, and those tradesmen will become permanent and be able to deal with the maintenance and repairs that need to be done on a regular basis.

The other construction companies representing the government operating in the North, at times they don't have the necessary well-thought-out plans, and this is probably one of the reasons why, at the end of the day, nothing succeeds. That's why it becomes a vicious circle.

Where is the capital going to come from, knowing that future tenants in the North don't necessarily have the capital to acquire housing for themselves? I know you talked about a long-term arrangement with the government, long-term planning and short-term planning.

Could you explain to me, on that end of it, how is it going to work? I have no idea because I have not seen your feasibility study. Have you done your feasibility study, taking into account all the areas that you have to deal with? Things like volume, equipment, transportation, the construction itself, training components and things like that, have you done the feasibility study taking into account the entire sector that you would need in order to make you successful?

Mr. Saucy: Thank you, senator, for your question.

Our feasibility study now is to the extent of this pilot project. Before we start looking at solving the needs of hundreds or thousands of houses in the North, we took the approach of looking at a feasibility study based on the current specifications of a housing unit that the NHC would specify.

We've proven, just with a limited number of units, 30 units, that by bringing the equipment, as you mentioned, that we possess, putting it on the vessels that again we control, and working with our partners and delivering all of that all at once in one integrated approach to one or three communities in the North, we believe that we have proven a solution that will be much more effective.

If this pilot project is successful, there is no reason why we cannot expand on it with some other partners that we have, bring on more equipment, more vessels and more capabilities to the table.

Our proposal is really just to try a proposal right now, because the systems used in the past are simply not working. They are simply not cost effective. We would like to have an opportunity to prove out that this concept is viable.

Senator Watt: I have two more questions for you, and then I would like to move to NTI after that.

There must be a reason why you have highlighted the project in Deception Bay, Nunavik in your presentation. Are you aware that Deception Bay receives a ship that comes in not carrying any load? Have you ever looked into the possibility of working out some arrangement with that mining company to carry your product and take it up to Deception Bay and move it from there with maybe a negotiated deal in terms of the cost that would be associated with it?

Mr. Irving: Thank you for that question, senator. We are familiar with the mining operations in Deception Bay, and this particular case study that we have presented to you here was around the construction of one of the newer ones, the nickel mine, that we were called to provide some support to, to supplement the shipping companies in their activities up there.

We work extensively with these shipping companies and respect the work they do and their vital link to the North, especially for big projects as well as communities, so we have an established relationship with them.

In Nunavik, for example in Deception Bay, my understanding is there is a 50-50 type arrangement for these two carriers that operate in there, and we were just filling the last critical orders that needed to go in for the construction season. Again, things happen in the North and weather events can change plans and schedules, and so with other equipment, our fleet and redundancy of resources, we were able to come in and provide a little bit of support at the tail end of that season.

Again, it was a very challenging operation. We were in late October, I believe, and it was a remote beach landing type of operation where again we had to be self-sufficient. We had to bring our own equipment, our own methods of transporting our cargoes to the beach and all of those different components.

But, to your question, the larger ships really are the preferred method for servicing these types of areas. We work extensively with Nunavut Sealink and Supply for the Baker Lake operation uniquely because that is an inland community and those ships cannot get in there. That is where our barges become relevant.

On a pilot project such as this where we are talking about very small volumes, 30 housing units, a barge is suitable. If we are talking about larger scales, we would look to leverage our partnership with Nunavut Sealink and Supply, for example, with the Desgagnés group. They do a great job, and we would advocate that type of arrangement.

We are familiar with working with each other and we have done it in many parts of the Arctic, along the Kivalliq region all the way down to Churchill, and I think it would be a winning formula for a broader, more expanded version of this business model.

Senator Watt: Thank you for now.

The Deputy Chair: I welcome Senator Mockler, who has joined us tonight.

Senator Raine: Thank you very much. I must say that it's daunting when you know the need for housing, and we are talking about so few units here and next year is the pilot. That's another year of needs coming, and we are just falling further and further behind. I really welcome the engagement of a group in a consortium that can take it from the actual modular construction to the erection working together. I think you are right: that is the solution. Good luck with the project.

I'm curious if this is going to happen as pilot, are you just telling us about it, or is this subject to financing by the Nunavut government? Are they using some of the federal dollars for social housing? How will this work? It looks like it will work, but someone has to write the work order and put the money down and get you started. Is that in order or is that where you are at?

Mr. Synard: Thank you, senator, for your question. There has been $77 million allocated for social housing in Nunavut as part of the last federal budget. We are hoping it will be decided that a portion of that money is allocated toward a pilot project like this, or one of similar nature.

I think everybody is in agreement, whether it is at this table or at the GN level, NTI level, NHC, that the dollars we are getting and the dollars we are spending are not necessarily being spent the best way, but right now it is known as the only way.

We have come in to show another way, and the great thing about it is if the government decides to take the risk on the pilot project, the rest of it is automatically assumed to us. We take the risk then if we can't deliver at our pricing points. We are alleviating the risks, but I think we are delivering the solution, and the fact that we could deliver a product cheaper on a pilot, to me, I think is remarkable. I'm excited to think about where we could take this.

Once we proof a model, I'm excited about where we could take this on a larger scale, where we can throw in some value engineering and some specific pieces of equipment can be manufactured for this.

Going back to Senator Watt's comments, instead of, for argument's sake, bringing cranes up on barges to every single community, if this was something that was going to carry on year after year, maybe we would stage some of that heavy equipment in some of the larger centres like Iqaluit, Rankin Inlet and Cambridge Bay. What happens then? We can bring more units on our boats or on our barges. The equipment is there waiting.

To get back to your question, we need the commitment from government because we need these units to go into the NHC stock, but if we have that commitment we will expand on it and also try the affordable home ownership aspect of it as well.

I think for the government to proceed with this type of scenario with whomever they want, we actually take all the risk of the pilot. I would not recommend today to this committee or to our government to take the entire $77 million allocated for housing right now and go this way. Do it as a pilot because, you're right, every year that we are only doing so many homes we are falling further behind. Once proof of concept and proof of model is there, let's wrap it up.

Senator Raine: Can you give me the total cost of the pilot in the two phases? You've got the cost per square foot, but have you got the total cost of either the three town home pilot or the six town home pilot?

Mr. Synard: Thank you again, senator.

Under option A we were looking at about $2 million per five-plex, with one five-plex delivered to three communities. Just from recently closed tenders through the Nunavut Housing Corporation, that's pretty much on par with what industry is bidding on these contracts. But if we went to those same three communities and delivered two five-plexes to each community for a total of 30 doors, we would actually be at $1.6 million, so we are at $400,000 less per building, which is significant.

Again, just coming back to the whole value and volume, the other thing out of this that has to be recognized as well is I'm basing my numbers right now on tendered prices. I know that this delivery method is a lot less administrative, because those are costs that have to be factored in as well. The costs that we are looking at here are the real delivered costs. There are no hidden costs. When we base ourselves against current delivery methods and our delivery method, we've already proven to ourselves to the point where we are willing to take a risk that we have a cheaper alternative.

Senator Raine: I have one other question, and I guess it would go to Mr. Girouard.

You're talking about the sailing from Miramichi. How long does it take for the modular houses to be built? Could some of the labour for those houses be done by the Inuit labour force who could come south for the winter? Would there be on-site housing in Miramichi? Is there any transfer of skills in a project like this on an ongoing basis? I understand you wouldn't be able to do it for a pilot, but could that commitment be made?

Mr. Girouard: It is a commitment that we would be willing to make. We are doing it now. The J. D. Irving group of companies, in different areas, have Aboriginal-dedicated training programs, both with the shipbuilding program and at Kent Homes currently with one of the local bands.

We would welcome an initiative whereby we could bring Inuit into our facility to train them to work on the units. Then they could easily turn into the people who would be working on the operations and maintenance of these buildings, or working with Mr. Synard's group afterwards to do the actual installation and final assembly.

To your first question, the buildings are built pretty quickly. From start to finish, each building module takes about 14 days to complete, but we are building two or three modules per day. Every day, two or three modules are coming off the production line. One of these townhouses is essentially, from start to finish, completed in about three weeks, packed and ready for shipment.

Senator Raine: Thank you very much. This has been a fascinating study because we are realizing there are a lot of solutions out there but it just isn't getting done, and there seem to be roadblocks.

Obviously, the shipping of either the materials or the full modular houses are two things, and we saw the airship — I'm sure you're following our study — which is another interesting concept. I wish you well. I really would like to see a pilot go forward, because we are just not able to keep up the way it is right now. Thank you for coming.

Senator Tannas: Thank you for being here.

Could give me the breakdown of costs from the actual house — the foundation and all of the transportation and logistics, et cetera — that are particular to the North? If you were to build the five-plex and do it with a foundation next door to the factory, what would that be per square foot versus what it takes to deliver to Pond Inlet or one of the other places? I'm curious to know what the real difference is, and I'll get to why in a minute. Do you have any sense of that?

The Deputy Chair: Did you identify communities that you would build these units in?

Mr. Girouard: We did. You are right that the transport is a big component that drives the cost. For a similar product, if we were to build this townhouse and put it next door to our factory, as you said — pick the nearest community to Bouctouche, something that is a few hours away from truck — we are telling you that this product is $395 a square foot. Locally, that would be $150 to $175 a square foot.

Senator Tannas: If we said $150, and these are 850 square foot two-bedroom units, excluding land cost and with foundation in, a family in New Brunswick could buy one of these units for roughly $127,500, and the same unit delivered up to a northern community is roughly $325,000, right?

Mr. Girouard: Roughly, yes.

Senator Tannas: So that's a really interesting issue for us to think about.

Now let's go to what we heard earlier about a list of people who would like to buy a home. What would the level of interest be in terms of numbers? And what would be the capacity of citizens in the North to buy a home like this for $127,500? How many of the 6,700 units that you are short could people actually step up and qualify for a mortgage to buy, in your view? Do you have any estimate of that?

The Deputy Chair: Senator, you said for $127,500 in the North. Did you mean that? Because it's $325,000 in the North.

Senator Tannas: I'm interested to know, if the going price was $127,500 in the North, how many people could qualify for a mortgage to buy these places? And, therefore, how many people could we take off the list?

Mr. Synard: Thank you for your question, senator. I really love the angle that you're putting on this, because this is an angle that I also wanted to get into but I didn't know if this would be the place to bring it up. At $125,000 — I'd actually like to go higher, so let's go to $200,000 or $250,000, because I think people would be more interested in buying one side of a duplex or a single family dwelling in a community as opposed to one unit in a five-plex where you are crammed in with no land and no place for your boat or snowmobiles.

But today, let's say on average it costs the Government of Nunavut, through federal transfers, $500,000 for one unit in a multi-unit building. For a one-off, single-family dwelling, we have nothing going on as a contractor in a community, and we can't afford to go build that one house. But people are getting pre-approved for mortgages for $300,000 to $500,000 one-offs.

At $200,000 or $250,000, if our government had a strategy in place — and this is this is going to seem way out there but I think we are thinking on the same lines — for a real down payment assistance program for our Inuit people, not one where we give you a certain amount of money for down payment assistance and the contractors just jack up the rates and take it back. That's not what we are talking about.

But if we had a prescribed formula, 10, 12 houses to choose from, and instead of the house being delivered through this vehicle here for $400,000, let's say the government says they are going to give a $200,000 down payment for your home, you're going to go out with conventional financing and get the other $200,000. That would be monumental for the North for a lot of people. First the government is putting the family into a unit for $200,000 instead of $400,000. Now they are creating wealth for themselves and their families.

Further to that, there has to be ownership from both ends. If you agree to take the subsidy to get your home for $200,000, closer to what people pay in the South, you would also have to agree that you don't go on a social housing list for the next 20 years. If you sell your house in the first 10 years, you have to pay back that subsidy. The last thing you would want is to create a system for the opportunists who would take the subsidy, buy and flip it and so on.

You are exactly right, and this is something I have been thinking about for a long time. In essence, we are always going to have a need for social housing, but if we could find a way to get more people into home ownership as a territory as a whole, we will be a lot further ahead. It's going to create that community that I talked about earlier, and I think that's what it comes down to.

When you listen to Adla's story and his upbringing, unfortunately there are not enough of them. Even when I look at the individuals who work for NCC, the people with the stable homes have less social issues and the best attendance at work. It's a snowball effect.

I know there are different committees and everything being formed now looking at suicide rates in the North, and it is sad and daunting. I have lost far too many that I have known well in the North to suicide. All of them lived in what I would consider to be substandard situations. If we could find a way to do it on a grassroots level with cheaper social housing and promote the affordable housing, I think we would be a long ways ahead. Thank you.

Senator Tannas: Thanks for your thoughts.

Senator Raine: I spent time in Whistler, which is a ski resort in British Columbia, where housing was an issue because young people working in the resort couldn't afford to pay the prices that the people who were building their mega-houses and chalets could afford. So they formed a housing society, and in that housing society they were given an opportunity to buy a house without the cost of the land. But they had a restriction: they could only sell back into the society. So you couldn't sell into the free market. There are regulations and things available for that, and I think that's what you're considering there because that would prevent people from flipping and taking advantage of the system.

Senator Moore: Thank you again, witnesses for being here.

Does NTI own the Nunavut Housing Trust?

Mr. Itorcheak: NTI does not have any ownership in the Nunavut Housing Trust. That trust was established by the Nunavut Housing Corporation, and about $200 million was earmarked almost 10 years ago. Nunavut Housing Trust was an organization owned, operated and administered by the Nunavut Housing Corporation, which is an agency of the Government of Nunavut for social housing.

Senator Moore: So it's an agent of the Government of Nunavut, not of NTI?

Ms. Arreak-Kullualik: Under the land claim agreement we do have the Nunavut trust.

Senator Moore: I just want to make sure I'm clear on that. So the Nunavut Housing Trust is owned by the Nunavut Housing Corporation, which is owned by the Nunavut government?

Mr. Itorcheak: Yes.

Senator Moore: I notice that between 2006 and 2010, $300 million went into that, and it was supposed to build 1,000 units and it came out with 726, with an overrun of $100 million. Do you know anything about that? Maybe you're not the people to answer. Do you know anything about how that got to be $100 million over?

Ms. Arreak-Kullualik: They underestimated the municipal land unit storage. You need the capacity, the staff, to build the units, and they underestimated the administrative costs.

Senator Moore: It's a huge underestimation. It's 25 per cent. Are their management systems better today than they were then?

Ms. Arreak-Kullualik: I certainly hope so.

Senator Moore: Are the same people in office?

Mr. Itorcheak: When the Nunavut Housing Trust was administered by the Nunavut Housing Corporation, that $200 million, the Government of Nunavut had to bail out that trust because they had underestimated the cost of constructing 700 units by $100 million.

Another thing we have to understand is that the Nunavut Housing Corporation did not have a functioning board at the time, much less a committee, to oversee the Nunavut Housing Trust. Instead, what the Government of Nunavut had at that time was an interagency senior management committee, and members of these committees were not really proficient in housing issues and this complicated the complexities of the project from start to end.

Senator Moore: Where did the $110 million shortfall come from?

Mr. Itorcheak: That $100 million shortfall came from the Government of Nunavut.

Senator Moore: Where did they get it?

Mr. Itorcheak: From their budget.

The Deputy Chair: They had to eat the shortfall.

Senator Moore: Is that from taxation? That's a lot of money.

Mr. Itorcheak: They had to cut back on other department expenses. They had to recoup other surpluses from other departments or agencies, and they collected that over a two-year period, at least.

Senator Moore: I'm glad to see the Irving company here because you bring experience and integrity to the work you do. You have certainly done that in the Atlantic provinces.

This pilot project, I'm having trouble following the description of it. I'm on page 24, and I'm just trying to figure it out. Option A says three townhomes. And then under that it says, "One 5-plex.'' I don't understand what that means.

The Deputy Chair: That's three communities. One five-plex in three communities, I believe.

Senator Moore: One five-plex in each of the three, so we are talking three five-plexes, correct?

The Deputy Chair: Yes.

Senator Moore: At $495 per square foot versus two for each of the three communities.

The Deputy Chair: Twice as much.

Senator Moore: So twice as much. Who owns the land on which the houses would sit?

Mr. Itorcheak: Most of the lands are owned by the local municipalities that are within the municipal boundaries. None of it is what you call Inuit-owned land, except some parts are in Iqaluit and perhaps some parts are in Rankin Inlet. Other than that, all of the other communities, all of the land is owned by the local municipal government.

Senator Moore: Have you looked at the possibility of private ownership, fee-simple ownership? If you own it, it really instills pride of ownership, looking after it and really creating the wealth you're talking about here. Has that been considered?

Mr. Itorcheak: Private ownership, what you call freehold tenancy, is non-existent within the territory of Nunavut. That was one of the stipulations of the Nunavut agreement under the land claim. The Inuit, the majority of residents and the majority of beneficiaries of Nunavut, did not want to see any sale or purchase of private land within their territory because they felt that most of the Inuit were not in a position to purchase the land.

I bring this up, because in our studies the median income of the Inuit, of which 95 per cent are tenants in social housing, is about $21,000 to $23,000, whereas in other communities like Iqaluit, the median income is closer to $90,000. In Iqaluit, about 50 per cent of the population is southerners and 50 per cent are northerners, Nunavut Inuit.

We just had a referendum last month. The majority of the electorate, meaning all citizens of Nunavut, decided not to proceed with the freehold system. They wanted to keep it status quo, which is a leasehold system.

Senator Moore: Mr. Synard, we visited the North a month ago, the High Arctic, and a lot of the things you mentioned we saw for ourselves.

I'm interested in the flow of the money and the timing of it. Aside from the management, which is critical, of course, do we know how this $76.7 million is to be allocated over two years? When is it received? When must it be spent? We heard situations where — maybe I'm thinking of First Nations here — people got the money in December and they had to spend it by the end of March. How do you build in minus 40? I don't get it.

From whom do you find out the timing and the flow of the money to maximize the opportunity of building as many housing units as you can? Who's in charge of that?

Mr. Synard: Thank you for your question, senator. What we've experienced in the past — and it's going to be interesting to see what the new government does — is typically the money has flowed from the federal government directly down to NHC. By the time the NHC is given this money, not only do they have to have it spent by a certain amount of time, they also have a lot of planning to do.

I think one thing you can see from this approach, and anything we try to do in the North, why was there a $110 million shortfall? Lack of planning was a lot of it.

Number two, one project that was under that Nunavut Housing Trust was a project that was so new to everyone. They did it 146 times. It was a very new type of building that they experimented with. It was not necessarily a bad type of building, but it was a pilot project of 146 homes.

However, in defence of the Nunavut Housing Corporation, because of the stipulations that were put on the money and the amount of time they had to spend it, spend it or lose it, let's see how many houses we can get. That has been the attitude and the mentality in the past.

Unfortunately, in areas like New Brunswick, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and Ontario, anywhere in the South, it's so much easier to get out, plan and spend your money. But when you look at the logistical and environmental challenges we have in the North, tightening that up on us actually makes it worse. If we could stretch it out over a longer period of time, we'll gain efficiencies.

Senator Moore: I think this goes to one of the deputy chair's first questions about planning and coordinating. The $76.7 million has been announced, so who's talking to whom now in terms of planning and coordinating so as to avoid another $110 million shortfall or whatever it might be in this situation? Who's doing that? Who has the responsibility to take the lead on that in your community? Is it the Nunavut government? Who is it?

Mr. Synard: I would think the Nunavut government for sure, and then that transfer of responsibility goes off to our Nunavut Housing Corporation.

[Translation]

Senator Mockler: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. It is a pleasure and an honour to be here, even if I am not a member of the committee.

[English]

I agree with Senator Moore. To NTI and NCC, where I come from we don't plant trees in January, either.

Mr. Chair, I'd like to share this first so there's no conflict. As a former minister of New Brunswick housing from 1999 to 2002, I appreciate this type of team approach for a pilot project. We raised questions lately, and in the first hour at the Finance Committee senators raised questions about housing in the North with the departments.

Last week at committee we had the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, and we talked about the cost of housing in the North. You have that challenge, and I was touched when Mr. Synard said building in a controlled environment is important. I believe that's the team approach to take.

Next, your vision of that team approach, NCC with JDI, is laudable and your integrated vision of doing it another way is also laudable.

I have two small questions. I know the role of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. There's no doubt that Nunavut housing deals with the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.

I'd like to ask a question to your partner. I know your experience in New Brunswick, but outside of New Brunswick can you apprize the committee if you have met the building codes and standards of Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation in New Brunswick in the past and to date?

Also, give us an appreciation of your experience in other provinces and areas of Canada.

Mr. Girouard: We have met and exceeded the CMHC standards for housing for the North. We actually took the NHC plans and specifications and bid directly to those and cross-referenced those with national building codes and the local authorities in the jurisdiction, as well.

At Kent Homes, we do a lot of work in a lot of different areas. Basically, our housing markets are Atlantic Canada, Ontario, Quebec and into the Eastern Seaboard of the U.S. On the commercial side, we actually range into Manitoba, and we have a lot of projects in Labrador — remote areas. We are familiar with having to deal with local authorities and various building codes, nationally and regionally.

Senator Mockler: I also know that you do a lot of employee training. Our colleague Senator Watt touched a bit on it. You do a lot of employee training and R&D in many other fields that you are involved in economically, such as agriculture, forestry, mining and natural resources in general.

Can you expand a bit and tell us what you mean by "Research and development on enhanced building materials'' for the North?

Mr. Girouard: When we looked at this opportunity for building these particular town homes, we had a lot of ideas but we didn't want to expand on it for the purposes a baseline of our approach with NHC's existing model. We put that in there because we do, internally, a lot of design type of gatherings where we want to sit with the customers and clients, and say, "What is it that you really want, and can we find a better way?''

We've had discussions regarding the water and sewage holding. And I want to touch on it a little bit, but we haven't done a lot of work on it: Is there an opportunity to incorporate a grey water system, where you're actually recovering some of the water and reusing it to flush your toilets? Is there an opportunity to look at the new products that are coming out daily to actually help on the insulation values? Are there ways to improve on all the bits and parts that make the house a home in the North?

To that end, we look forward to doing some research and development with local architects and with some of the people who meet these challenges in the North and maybe bring a fresh approach to how to build these homes better for the North.

The Deputy Chair: Colleagues, we are a little bit over time, but we started late due to the Committee of the Whole we had this afternoon.

Senator Watt: I will be quick.

[The honourable senator spoke in Inuktitut.]

These are the questions I put forward in Inuktitut: All of us have heard what is being proposed here. Are you inclined to support the concept of this project that you would like to move? My question is directed to Ms. Arreak- Kullualik. That's a translation of it.

Ms. Arreak-Kullualik: Thank you.

[Ms. Arreak-Kullualik spoke in Inuktitut.]

To respond to your question, yes, this is a concept that we can really support, because it also fits into what we need where we want to see more housing, where Inuit can transition from social or public housing to eventually become homeowners. We also need the transition where they are trying to advance themselves in our society through education and training.

To answer your question, if the Inuit housing trust is established, because NCC is an Inuit organization, the money would go to NTI. Then we could access those funds to give them the capital to start the pilot projects.

Senator Watt: I would imagine that you would also like to see the Inuit directly involved in the design of those houses because there are certain things you have to take into consideration, like wind factors, prevailing winds and so on. When I see houses down South, they're very different from where I come from. Normally you have to take into consideration the wind, prevailing factors and things of that nature, which way the windows are facing and how the porch is located. I would say it would have to be put in by the communities into those areas, and I believe you are planning to go into that area.

Lastly, I am just going to make a suggestion to you. Maybe it's time for the committee to seriously consider making a proposal to the government to activate an apprenticeship program that becomes a permanent one. Maybe it already exists in the government. It used to, but I'm not sure if it exists today. I think that would be welcomed by you. The Inuit could be trained to do the actual construction, and they can also look after the maintenance, things of that nature. I would imagine this is part of the reasons the Inuit would support what is being proposed today. Am I correct in saying that?

When I talk about the apprenticeship program, I mean a training program. It could become a permanent training program. The government would have an obligation to finance that if it's not already in place. It used to be, but I'm not sure if it is today.

Ms. Arreak-Kullualik: In the first Nunavut Ten-Year Inuit Housing Action Plan that we submitted to the federal government in 2005, there were training components that also incorporated Inuit apprenticeship, so we would be in full support of that initiative.

Senator Watt: To make it into a permanent program?

Ms. Arreak-Kullualik: Yes. That's one of the reasons why the trade school in Rankin was established.

Senator Watt: My colleague wants to know whether you have been consulted by the company with regard to the various designs anticipated. There could be different designs, but I think it's important for the community to be consulted to make sure they're backing up the company that will be doing the work in the community.

The Deputy Chair: Do you want to contribute to that, Mr. Synard?

Mr. Synard: Thank you, senator. The design we are looking at in the presentation that we handed out — for everybody's information, whether it be this committee, the Government of Nunavut or the Nunavut Housing Corporation, the design we used came close or pretty much mimicked the design that the Nunavut Housing Corporation has in place now with respect to size, systems, everything. Because it is a pilot project and a new delivery method and model, we had to ensure that we were comparing apples to apples in respect to what that final price is going to be.

It was funny; in our discussions this morning talking about affordable home ownership, Ray from Kent Homes was asking me, "What kind of homes would you like for the people of Nunavut up there?'' We were talking about different styles. I said, "I want nice homes.'' If somebody is playing $354,000 for their house, it should look nice, too. Yes, it has to adapt to the climate. Because of the prevailing winds, the high winds, your windows have to face the proper way. Your cold porches have to face the proper way so they don't fill with snow. We can accomplish all of that, but there's no reason why the houses can't look nice and there's no reason why people can't have a choice in what colour their siding or roof is.

You know yourself, from travelling to many different communities in Nunavut, that when you walk through a community, unless it's a health centre or a school, in pretty much every community the dwellings look the same. It's the same government program that runs through.

We actually want to help create, identify and personalize communities along the way with this approach. You know what? That's consulting NTI and your community members and seeing what they want. That's something that we would be very open to and would want to do, because we want to look different as well. Thank you.

Senator Raine: I don't have any further questions. As I said, we've heard a lot of solutions. The other day we heard from NRCan about their innovative Arctic house they've been working on. It was a different kind of concept, but it still needs to be shipped up there and built. It's not built all on site, but it's all panelized and can be put up quickly. It sounded very innovative.

What I like about your proposal is that you're going from building here, where you can build pretty much any time of the year, to taking full advantage of the short shipping and erection season to get good-quality homes built. You're not running into problems with the weather. Good luck.

The Deputy Chair: On that optimistic note, colleagues, I will thank the witnesses and all of you, senators, for your thoughtful questions.

The meeting is adjourned.

(The committee adjourned.)