Proceedings of the Special Senate Committee on the
Charitable Sector
Issue 1 - Evidence - February 26, 2018
OTTAWA, Monday, February 26, 2018
The Special Senate Committee on the Charitable Sector met this day at 8:08 p.m., pursuant to rule 12-13 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Kevin Pittman, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, there is a quorum. As clerk of your committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair. I am ready to receive a motion to that effect.
Are there any nominations?
Senator Omidvar: Yes. I would like to nominate Senator Mercer as chair of this committee.
Mr. Pittman: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Omidvar that the Honourable Senator Mercer do take the chair of this committee.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Mr. Pittman: I invite the Honourable Senator Mercer to take the chair.
Senator Terry M. Mercer (Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: Thank you, colleagues, for your confidence.
Honourable senators, it is now my duty to call upon nominations for the deputy chair of the committee.
Senator Griffin: I would like to make a motion. I nominate Senator Omidvar as the deputy chair.
The Chair: Senator Omidvar has been nominated. As there are no further nominations, I would declare Senator Omidvar deputy chair.
Congratulations. It is the power of the P.E.I. vote. That’s what I say.
The next motion is:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the chair, the deputy chair, and one other member of the committee, to be designated after the usual consultation; and
That the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses, and to schedule hearings.
Senator Griffin: I would move that motion.
The Chair: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Now we will deal with the motion to publish committee proceedings.
Senator Omidvar: I move that motion.
The Chair: Senator Omidvar moves that motion.
Are we in agreement?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Next is authorization to hold meetings and to receive evidence when quorum is not present:
That, pursuant to rule 12-17, the chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the publication of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a member of the committee from both the opposition and the Independent Senators Group be present.
I so move.
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed.
On research staff, it is moved:
That the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign analysts to the committee;
That the chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of such counsel and technical, clerical, and other personnel as may be necessary for the purpose of the committee’s examination and consideration of such bills, subject-matters of bills, and estimates as are referred to it;
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee; and
That the chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries, and draft reports.
Senator Omidvar: Chair, could I ask a question on this one?
The Chair: Certainly.
Senator Omidvar: It says, “That the chair, on behalf of the committee.” I’m not sure if this is standard or whether we should say, “the chair, with the steering committee.”
The Chair: I’m sorry?
Senator Omidvar: “The steering committee, direct the research staff.” It’s not the chair alone. Senator Mercer, I just want to make sure that the deputy chair and the other member from the Conservatives are also involved in doing this.
The Chair: That would normally be the case, but this is the usual motion in all committees. This motion is the same as you’ll find at all committees.
Senator Omidvar: I would ask the clerk if we can amend this usual motion.
The Chair: Sure. We can do anything we want. I just point it out that it’s not an unusual motion.
Senator Omidvar: We’re in unusual circumstances now in the Senate.
The Chair: That’s fine.
Senator Griffin, would you accept that amendment?
Senator Griffin: Certainly.
The Chair: Kevin, have you amended that?
Mr. Pittman: What is the wording exactly?
Senator Omidvar: “That the steering committee.”
Senator Griffin: Why don't we say, “through the chair?”
Senator Omidvar: No. “That the steering committee”; is that acceptable?
The Chair: It’s fine with me.
Senator Omidvar: Thank you.
The Chair: That’s the way it would be anyway.
Senator Omidvar: I understand, but sometimes it’s good to codify things.
The Chair: Good.
Do we have an agreement?
Senator Omidvar: Yes, agreed.
The Chair: Do you want me to read it again with that change?
Mr. Pittman: If you read the motion, we’re taking “the chair” out of the first paragraph. Then there are other sections here that refer to the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure.
The Chair: Which is the steering committee.
Mr. Pittman: Exactly. Then the last paragraph refers back to the chair again, so you need to change it.
Senator Omidvar: You need to change it again.
Mr. Pittman: You need to replace “chair.”
Senator Omidvar: “Chair” with “steering committee.”
The Chair: That’s right. “That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, on behalf of the committee, direct research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries, and draft reports.”
Agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Omidvar: Thank you, chair.
The Chair: It is not a problem.
Next is the authority to commit funds.
We would like to invite Havi Echenberg to join us at the table. Havi, I am happy to have you with us.
Havi Echenberg, Analyst, Library of Parliament: Thank you, senator.
The Chair: I move:
That, pursuant to section 7, chapter 3:06 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair, and the clerk of the committee;
That, pursuant to section 8, chapter 3:06 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair, and the clerk of the committee; and
That, notwithstanding the foregoing, in cases related to consultants and personnel services, the authority to commit funds and certify accounts be conferred jointly on the chair and deputy chair
Senator Omidvar: There is a bit of dissonance here. I wonder, chair, if we should just replace the word “chair.” It doesn’t work.
You’re shaking your head and I’m not quite sure why. Okay, you have to chit-chat. All right, fine.
The Chair: As the clerk pointed out to me, Senator Omidvar, the issue here is that, as you’ve heard me say, it is pursuant to section 7, chapter 3:06 of the Senate Administrative Rules. Those are rules that we don’t have the power to change here right now.
Senator Omidvar: Sadly, no, but later we will.
The Chair: That being stated, do we have agreement on the previous one?
Senator Omidvar: We have agreement. Agreed.
Senator Griffin: So moved.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
And:
That the committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
Is that agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed.
On the designation of members travelling on committee business:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to:
(1) determine whether any member of the committee is on “official business” for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy, published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998; and
(2) consider any member of the committee to be on “official business” if that member is:
(a) attending an event or meeting related to work of the committee; or
(b) making a presentation related to the work of the committee; and
That the subcommittee report at the earliest opportunity any decisions taken with respect to the designation of members of the committee travelling on committee business.
Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you.
On travelling and living expenses of witnesses, I move:
That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witness expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and that payment will take place upon application, but that the chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed.
Finally, the regular time slot for the committee will be Mondays at 6:30 to 8:30.
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you, colleagues.
Senator Omidvar: Thank you, chair, and congratulations, Senator Mercer, for leading us to this point.
The Chair: Before we go, I want to talk quickly about timing. I know Senator Omidvar wants to get back to the chamber.
We’re here this week, and then we’re on a two-week break. Then Senator Griffin and I are travelling the next week with the Agriculture Committee to Western Canada. I see our first opportunity to meet is the week after that, but in the interim I would hope that the subcommittee could agree that we would write to members of the committee seeking their input with respect to prospective witnesses, et cetera.
Perhaps the subcommittee could come up with at least two or three committee dates in advance so that people can get them in their travel plans, because I know Monday night is not a normal travel time for some people. Particularly, we have two people from the West on the committee. I appreciate their commitment, but it is much more difficult for them to get here for Monday evening.
Senator Omidvar: I’m a little loath to put the cart before the horse. I would like to have a discussion with the subcommittee and the committee on the buckets of work that need to be done. This is so big that our first task will be, I believe, to sort of say, “What are the most essential buckets? What are the lines of inquiry that we must pursue and that we must put aside because we don’t have the time?” We’re already at the end of March.
I wonder, instead of asking for witnesses, if we can get an email out to members of the committee as to lines of inquiry that they are interested in. Then, we can get some agreement on the lines of inquiry, and then we can get another email out, saying, ”Okay, people, we’ve decided to do A, B, and C. Which witnesses would you like?” We don’t want to corrupt —
The Chair: That’s a very good point, Senator Omidvar. As I was preparing for tonight’s meeting, I went back and looked at my own speech that I made in proposing the committee, and in that I outlined a bunch of things.
Senator Omidvar: Senator, there were other speakers.
The Chair: And other people spoke.
Senator Omidvar: Have you got them all?
The Chair: I don’t think I’ve captured them all, but I will write to everyone tomorrow and tell them when our very first meeting will be. Unfortunately, we’re stuck with the time because we’ve got two weeks off here, which always puzzles people, including me. Anyway, we’ll do that, but in the interim, I will ask them to communicate to the steering committee the lines of inquiry they may be interested in and, as well, perhaps refer them to the other speeches that were made in the chamber.
Ms. Echenberg: I already went through those.
Senator Omidvar: That’s why we’re happy to have Havi here.
The Chair: This is why we have someone smarter than me.
Ms. Echenberg: I went through all of the speeches, and I went through all of the sort of broad proposals that have come from the sector. I actually put together a little outline.
The Chair: Oh, terrific.
Ms. Echenberg: I’ve identified some witnesses. I have it in both languages so that the clerk can officially be distributing.
Senator Omidvar: That’s perfect.
The Chair: I know colleagues haven’t seen it, but we’ll give you copies now. I suggest that one of the things we might do is circulate this with my note to people looking for their lines of inquiry because many of their lines of inquiry should have been captured in this. This is good work.
Senator Griffin: Yes, I’m impressed.
The Chair: That would be very helpful. Does that work for you, Senator Omidvar?
Senator Omidvar: This is wonderful. My office has been working on lines of inquiry, and I’m happy to see that Havi and my office and I are almost in concurrence; not quite but almost.
The Chair: Anything that has been missed we can add in.
Senator Omidvar: We can put it in.
The Chair: That’s a good suggestion.
Ms. Echenberg: I have subthemes under these, but I just wanted to keep it clean for your first consideration.
The Chair: Thank you very much for that. With your agreement, colleagues, I will attach that, in both languages, to my memo to people tomorrow.
Senator Omidvar: This is pretty darn good. Well done.
The Chair: Yes, it looks pretty good.
Senator Griffin: Excellent.
The Chair: Is there any other business?
As soon as you leave we lose quorum, so I’m rushing. Are there any other things that we need to discuss?
Senator Omidvar: Can you send out the date of the next meeting because I’m confused about which days you’re travelling?
The Chair: That will be in the memo. You will get the memo as well as everybody else, even though you’re the deputy chair.
Senator Omidvar: Very good.
The Chair: Colleagues, thank you all.
(The committee adjourned.)