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Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on 
Fisheries and Oceans

Issue No. 11 - Evidence - March 8, 2017 (morning)

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ST. JOHN'S, Newfoundland, Wednesday, March 8, 2017

The Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans met this day at 8:21 a.m. to study Maritime Search and Rescue activities, including current challenges and opportunities.

Senator Fabian Manning (Chair) in the chair.

[English]

The Chair: Good morning. I would ask committee members to introduce themselves, and then we will get to our witnesses.

Senator Doyle: Norm Doyle, senator for Newfoundland and Labrador.

Senator Hubley: Elizabeth Hubley, senator for Prince Edward Island.

Senator Christmas: Dan Christmas, senator for Nova Scotia.

Senator McInnis: Tom McInnis, senator for Nova Scotia.

The Chair: Thank you, senators.

Just so everyone is aware, we have been in Newfoundland and Labrador for the past couple of days visiting different sites. We have seen the Coast Guard installations here in St. John's and had discussions with the Coast Guard Auxiliary. We visited the base in Goose Bay yesterday. We toured squadron 103 in Gander yesterday afternoon and had a meeting.

We have been conducting our study for a number of months. We have received many witnesses, but we're not finished yet. We are delighted to be here in Newfoundland and Labrador, as always, and are also delighted this morning to begin our hearings today with the Honourable Andrew Parsons. With him is Paula Walsh.

The floor is yours.

Andrew Parsons, Minister, Newfoundland and Labrador Department of Justice and Public Safety: Good morning everybody. Thank you so much for the invitation for the opportunity to be here. Thank you for coming to our province and doing this very important work. I can say right off the bat that this is my first time appearing before a committee such as this. It is a little intimidating, but seeing some familiar faces around the table certainly makes it a little more comfortable.

I'm very happy to have to my left Ms. Paula Walsh, our assistant deputy minister. She has only been with us a short period of time but before that had a very prestigious career with our Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. She has been a huge asset to our department and has some background on the topic we're discussing here today. I'm not afraid to refer to her as the brains of the operation here today, and hopefully I can rely on her tremendous background to help me in my comments.

By way of background, I am the MHA for Burgeo—La Poile, which is the district on the southwest tip of this province. It takes in Port Aux Basques, which obviously has the Marine Atlantic ferries connecting us to the mainland. I'm also the Minister of Justice and Public Safety and Attorney General, a role I've held since December of last year. I am very happy to be in this role and to be responsible for policing in this province, which is the first line of response when it comes to missing individuals and calls that follow for search and rescue.

I have some prepared remarks that I will begin with, but I will keep it brief. I would be happy to have a conversation and answer questions after and speak with the committee.

Each year, approximately 150 people in this province are reported lost or missing. Every year, on average, 600 lives are saved at sea while 18 are lost off the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador. As the provincial minister responsible for the two provincial police forces, our Royal Newfoundland Constabulary as well as our RCMP, who are responsible for the investigation of those who are lost or missing, I am pleased to have this opportunity today to present before the standing Senate committee.

Provincial and federal governments work together in search and rescue. The Department of National Defence coordinates air searches and the Coast Guard responds to calls for marine searches. Our provincial police agencies coordinate ground search and rescue operations in hopes of bringing those people home safely to their families, but unfortunately that doesn't always happen.

In 2012, 14-year-old Burton Winters went missing after leaving his grandmother's home on a snowmobile in the northern Labrador community of Makkovik. His body was found three days later. Young Burton died of exposure after walking about 19 kilometres on sea ice from his abandoned snowmobile. His body was located some 22 kilometres from Makkovik.

In light of this tragedy and others, our government is committed to reviewing search and rescue services in this province to improve the system that helps save lives.

Our province was very pleased to hear on November 7 that within 18 months the federal government would reopen the Maritime Rescue Sub-Centre in St. John's. Two new lifeboat stations will be built near Twillingate and Bay de Verde and the St. Anthony lifeboat station will be refurbished.

We recognize that these measures will improve search and rescue in our province. Newfoundland and Labrador, as you know, has more coastline than any other province in this country. It's important that the people responsible for coordinating responses are knowledgeable and familiar with the waters and coastline here in this province.

In the past, the province has asked for 30-minute response times, but that's not the only factor that can help save lives. The distance that search and rescue officials have to travel must be taken into account and the decision of where to locate assets is complex. As well, the historical distribution of incidents, weather patterns and the co-location of forces with supporting infrastructure add to that complexity.

We must also consider that changes in the fishing industry are happening and must be considered. Our fishing industry is currently transitioning back to groundfish, which requires harvesters to be at sea for longer period of times. It's fundamental that supports are in place to ensure their safety. Any new resources or upgrades should be strategically placed to provide optimal response times where harvesters are fishing.

Similarly, we have an increased attention in this province to tourism, and the availability of more complex technology leads individuals to become more adventurous, with a false sense of security.

In order to be successful, search and rescue operations rely, among other factors, having the right capabilities at the right time, which includes the right equipment, highly skilled personnel, response posture, and the appropriate location of search and rescue resources and procedures.

Personnel shortages and training challenges limit the ability of the Canadian Forces and our Coast Guard to maintain search and rescue operations. There need to be dedicated search and rescue personnel and in-service assets available at all times. Canadian Forces aircraft and helicopters are in need of maintenance and replacement, and alternative service delivery models must be in place to ensure that there is no gap in service for midlife overhaul of equipment.

Going forward, challenges for our search and rescue system do include: fulfilling the staffing and asset upgrades recommended by our federal Auditor General at a time of fiscal restraint; increasing competition from the private sector for search and rescue techs and their skill sets presents retention and recruitment challenges within the system; and we also in this province have a ground search and rescue system that in particular is heavily dependent on volunteers. We need to ensure that the necessary skills are maintained and training provided to ensure that this base of support is sustainable since they play such an important role in our search and rescue system.

We have made, in this province, considerable strides with respect to search and rescue, but as we all know, there's always room for improvement. We think that working together to enhance the systems that are currently in place is important, and we welcome any insight that will be gained from this illustrious committee and our defence policy review that will go towards keeping our citizens safe.

That is the extent of my prepared remarks, Mr. Chair. Again, very happy to be able to speak to this important topic and to answer questions or perhaps have a conversation on this topic.

The Chair: Thank you. As we've travelled in the last couple of days, some of the issues that you raise here have been brought to the forefront by people involved. We've had some very frank discussions with people, to be honest, from the volunteers right up to the military.

As usual, our first questioner is our deputy chair, Senator Hubley.

Senator Hubley: Welcome. We've had a wonderful stay in Newfoundland and Labrador. It has been my impression that search and rescue has to meet the demands of where it is located, and you certainly have unique features here in Newfoundland. You have the largest coastline, as you noted. You have an offshore oil and gas industry. You have a vibrant tourism industry and a commercial fishery as well. Those are all areas that we must consider when thinking about search and rescue.

I'd like to comment on the jurisdiction and what is the appropriate response and how does that response begin and go forward. If I was in trouble somewhere in the middle of Newfoundland, I might even try 911, but I don't know that 911 would be the appropriate place to call the RCMP. So even at that level, there may be some confusion. Would I phone my local fire department? Would I phone the local police in my community? I'm not sure. But I think that people must know the answers to those questions before they venture out and they must know exactly what the procedure is when they get into a dangerous situation.

Having said that, I think we also must move forward. If the first response is at a community level, we have to be very sure that when the seriousness of the situation is assessed, the next search and rescue organization that has perhaps more search and rescue skills and more training must be brought in at the appropriate time so that valuable time is not wasted. I'm wondering if you would comment on how search and rescue is working in your province.

Mr. Parsons: Thank you for that. I think it's a good opportunity to talk about what we are dealing with.

I referenced the tragic incident we had in this province a few years ago, and I think since that time, significant steps have been taken. I think perhaps our greatest need — and I don't think this is just dealing with search and rescue but, rather, everything — is communication. We've seen these challenges when you have multiple agencies that are responsible for anything. I can talk about the health care system; I can talk about policing; I can talk about education. If you don't have communication, you're going to have a breakdown in the system. With search and rescue, time is of the essence. The more time that is wasted, you're going to see an exponential decline in a positive outcome. I think we have seen significant improvement in that area, but that is one of the challenges.

We're responsible for ground search and rescue and inland waters, and one of the big challenges we face is the infrastructure for actually making contact. I know our senators would be aware of this. I deal with it, coming from a rural area. Actually trying to make a call when you have limited cell service access is a huge challenge. I represent an area that has very wide spots of no coverage, nothing whatsoever, and an area where people do spend a significant amount of time out on the ground, whether it's hunting, fishing, whatever, and when you actually have no access, that presents the first challenge of how to call the person.

The second part is that there have been issues in the past about who to call. Do you call local police? We have made some steps in this province over the last number of years in terms of 911. That's now across the province. We have that. But we need to move forward into the next generation of 911. That's coming. It takes some time, but we have made that step.

Again, the first place that people go to, depending on the jurisdiction, is the RNC or the RCMP. For the record, our RNC cover the St. John's and the Avalon area, Corner Brook, as well as Lab City. The RCMP covers the rest of our province, and as you know, there's a huge geography there.

Usually the first step is that the police are involved and are the first responders in terms of determining where this goes and where the issue is. The first thing that they'll do is assess the situation and use normal steps, calling friends, looking around in any type of missing person situation.

Depending on the area, if it's inland or if we know that it's offshore, that's a whole different ballgame.

I think we've made steps knowing who to call and when do we call them, but in the past we have had communication issues in terms of, "Well, is this my responsibility; is this not my responsibility?'' Having clearly defined terms of who is responsible and when saves time and that can then be used towards getting the positive outcome that we need.

Senator Hubley: Thank for your comments.

The only comment I would have is that if those decisions aren't made at a government level, they then have to be made at the responders' level, and that is sometimes a time-consuming effort. If they knew exactly what their mandate was and it was well explained, I think that would go far to improving their ability to address the situation.

I thank you for your answer.

Senator Doyle: Minister, welcome.

I'm curious about the Coast Guard Auxiliary in Newfoundland and how they interact or interface with the actual Coast Guard in Canada. There are about 700 volunteers, I believe. In Newfoundland, 300 vessels are involved. What would be the challenges for these people? What do they do and how do they interface with the Coast Guard?

Mr. Parsons: I will say that it's not something I have a huge amount of familiarity with, given the fact that the Coast Guard Auxiliary, as well as the Coast Guard, don't fall under the Justice and Public Safety mandate. There is a bit of a division there, so it's not something I've had a lot of actual interface with. I haven't dealt with that. That might be a better question for our members of Parliament, who may have more face-to-face dealings.

Senator Doyle: Okay.

Mr. Parsons: They're part of the team, but in my role, I've dealt primarily with ground search and rescue here in the province, mainly with the volunteers, as well our policing forces.

That question in and of itself may be good one in the sense of you've got all these different entities and even in terms of governments, different departments running this. That could present challenges just in terms of communication.

The Chair: Just to advise Senator Doyle on our list of witnesses today, we'll be hearing from the Coast Guard and the Coast Guard Auxiliary.

Senator Doyle: What about the funding level for the Coast Guard for Newfoundland and how you view it? As you mentioned, we have the world's biggest coastline, and it is a difficult environment to operate in. If you had to do an assessment on the various aspects that involve the efficient operation of the Coast Guard, would funding be a top priority for you, increases in funding?

Mr. Parsons: Now I may be going out on a limb here and maybe I'm going to get a call from the premier after, but, yes, of course we'd love to see more funding. We'd love to see that.

Speaking on behalf of a government, where we have some serious fiscal challenges, I recognize the fact that it's very easy to say we want more funding and need more funding. That's a call that we get absolutely every day here in our province on a number of issues, but I don't think that just saying we need more funding always fits the bill. I think you need to look at finding those efficiencies with the funding that we have.

I'm quite pleased with the Coast Guard investment in this province. We have a number of ships. We have a number of stations and personnel, and I know some of these people personally. I think there has been a recognition of our province and our geography by the federal government, by the Coast Guard, so I'd like to think that the funding has been there and has been certainly adequate. I don't want to sit here today and say that we need more. I mean, we'd always like to see more. I think we need to recognize, though, that education and training are two key areas that we need to continue to invest in.

There's also the physical infrastructure, our ships. That's one thing. But in terms of our staff, we need to make sure that there's constant education, constant training and upgrading in that regard, and our auxiliary and even our ground search and rescue, which is not specifically connected, but making sure that there's a federal investment in that.

Anybody doing this volunteer work is crucial. They are absolutely crucial and we need to maintain that. In terms of making an investment and putting in X number of dollars, what is the return on that going to be? That's the whole purpose of an investment. I think there can be a huge return on an investment of that nature.

Senator Doyle: Okay. I'll wait for the Coast Guard Auxiliary to get some of the other answers.

The Chair: Minister, yesterday we visited Goose Bay. I want to preface my remarks by saying that we have no doubt in the expertise that we are fortunate to have in this province in relation to the pilots, the SAR techs, everybody involved with providing the response.

Labrador is a massive geographical area, as we all know, and we have the opening up of the North in regards to more vessel traffic. The SAR response there was secondary. The range that the helicopters on the ground in Labrador can go is very limited and even more limited with poor weather such as high winds and snow. They, themselves, admit that their hands are sometimes tied behind their backs in relation to the extent that they can go, and that goes back to response time.

I'm wondering if you have had the opportunity to talk to these people. We're seriously looking at something in our report to address that issue. I'm not sure, to be honest with you, if somebody in the upper echelon really understands the geography and the expanse and the winter. I mean, yesterday, it was a beautiful day there, but it was in the depth of winter, and trying to respond in a secondary case I think raised some concerns with us as a committee. These are the places that we need to maybe step it up a little bit.

Mr. Parsons: I'm going to give my assistant deputy minister a chance to speak because part of her career actually was serving in Labrador with the RNC. So I think she can provide some insights, and I will have a few comments right after.

Paula Walsh, Assistant Deputy Minister, Public Safety and Enforcement, Newfoundland and Labrador Department of Justice and Public Safety: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Yes, sir, with respect to Labrador, I was fortunate during my 33-and-a-half years of serving as a police officer on the front line to have served as the commanding officer in that remote northern region of Labrador. Specifically it would have been the Labrador West area, which includes Labrador City, Wabush, but the geographic area right over to Churchill Falls. If anybody has had the opportunity to visit that beautiful northern area, you'd certainly know how vast it is, particularly when it comes to search and rescue situations. It's a very vulnerable area, not only vast. Time is always of the essence, and response time in those areas can often be very challenging, not only in my role there as the incident commander, but in particular with respect to deployment of the resources that you have on the ground.

As the minister indicated, our primary role from a policing perspective is ground search and rescue. For that reason, the liaison in the north, as well as on the island, is important. Knowing that we have volunteers who are trained, but certainly could receive more significant training, knowing those volunteers are available at a beck and call are familiar with the terrain are critical pieces to the response. The police officers working in those areas are often transitioning in and out, whereas the local individuals who are involved in the ground search and rescue teams are those who are very familiar with the various lakes with the land. That has proven to be a tremendous asset.

There was a question earlier in relation to communication in a remote area like that. For the benefit of people travelling in the northern area, our province has made satellite phones available to tourists as well as citizens, and perhaps there is a way of enhancing the availability of those phones. Someone may be given a phone on the south coast of Labrador and they're travelling to the west coast or the western region of Labrador, be it Labrador City or Churchill Falls. That's such a remote area. I've experienced it myself. It's a service provided by the province. The satellite phone dials directly into the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary communications location in Labrador West. It's not a phone on which you actually dial a number. It's a phone that when you make a call, it goes directly to the police service. So that's certainly been of benefit to citizens in Labrador.

Mr. Parsons: It's good to have an opportunity to speak about Labrador again.

Anecdotally, I've had an opportunity to be Goose Bay a number of times and be on the south coast. Just this past fall, I had an opportunity to visit the north coast and actually went up there with our RCMP. When you talk about the weather, it's one thing to hear about it and it's another thing to experience it firsthand.

We were up there in September, usually a beautiful time of year. Flying in a little RCMP plane, and even then, in September, getting in and out of these communities was very tough. You had a small window in some cases. The weather was really tough. The pilots flying up there are absolutely amazing. And that's in September, a month when the weather is generally good. It wasn't adverse weather by any means; it's just that's the nature of it. And then you put us into the winter months and into actual harsh weather, and you can only imagine the challenges that the people face on a daily basis. And then you look at our search and rescue and everybody within that industry and the challenges they face.

I don't think there is a real understanding in some cases. I certainly didn't have that same understanding until I saw it firsthand, and it's easy to see, when you go up through the levels, as you mentioned, maybe that understanding is not there. I don't think it's intentional. It's just like anything: seeing is believing.

I think if I'm correct, we've got the Cormorants down in Gander, and up in Goose Bay we have the Griffins. I hear there's some difference. I'm certainly not a technical expert, but when I talk to people who are in the field, they'll talk about the difference between those two choppers and the fact that maybe we need to have some kind of change there.

Again, when you have the geography we have and then the fact that we've got a huge offshore, we may need to look at finding ways to have more resources available in other places as well, including St. John's.

Then there is the fact that there are no fixed wing aircraft in this province right now. We rely on Greenwood, and that's been identified as a possible challenge.

I know it's easy to say we need more, and I recognize that every government faces fiscal challenges. The easy thing to do is just say, "Give us more money,'' but this is where you find a way to find the efficiencies that allow you to make some of these changes and look at the deployment of the resources that are there. I know that issue has been brought up, where our assets are located and their usefulness when it comes to the geography they serve.

The Chair: As a committee, if we're going to put forward a recommendation of any sort, we like to be able to back it up with facts that make the case for what we're asking much stronger, understanding full well that all governments are under fiscal restraint. The location of assets is something that has come up, not only here in Newfoundland and Labrador, but throughout the country, so it's something we'll be looking at.

Senator McInnis?

Senator McInnis: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming. Newfoundland is a wonderful province. I've only been here three times. Actually, I was saying to my friend Senator Doyle this morning that this is the first time I've seen the sun, since I seem to come during the off-season. But it's a remarkably beautiful province and you're very fortunate to live here.

As all of us probably know, fishing communities don't always have a culture of safety. I was intrigued to see that you have a certification program for fishermen, that you put legislation in place and it's a not-for-profit organization. I didn't get a lot of information about it. Is it unique to your province? Do all fishers have to have it? Do all boat licence holders have to have it? Is there a test, which of course one would think would involve safety? Is there any training component to that certification?

Mr. Parsons: The good news, senator, is that representatives from our fishing industry will be presenting here this morning, so they'll certainly be more eloquent and informative than me. I do think there is some kind of boating proficiency program in the province.

What I can say, speaking generally about the fishing industry, is that huge steps have been taken when it comes to safety. But going out and not going out means the difference between making a living, and it is extremely difficult when you have to weigh those. It's easy to stay in.

When it comes to the sealing industry, just this week we had a rescue. We're extremely lucky to be sitting here today talking about a rescue as opposed to something negative that could have come about. But I think there have been a lot of improvements.

I've got a lot of buddies at home who fish and I always joke with them that it's amazing how many of them don't know how to swim. It's just a joke that we have amongst ourselves. But I think the industry realizes it's one of the most dangerous situations on earth, and so steps have been taken there.

I'm not sure which agency will be here to present. I don't know if it's FFAW or Fish NL.

The Chair: Both.

Mr. Parsons: Well, both are quite capable of talking about — certainly better than I am — the steps that they've taken to improve safety in the industry.

The Chair: Just to let you know, the people from the auxiliary here are fishermen, fisherpersons. They'll be here with us today later, so they'll be able to fill you in.

Senator McInnis: But is it not run by the province? It's provincial legislation.

Mr. Parsons: It wouldn't fall under the purview of the Department of Justice and Public Safety.

Senator McInnis: No, I know.

Mr. Parsons: The name just changed. We had a change in government last week, so I think it's the Department of Fisheries and Land Resources. I think it would fall under Steve Crocker, the minister. It's not something I've had any firsthand involvement with, so I apologize for not being able to speak more clearly about that.

Senator McInnis: I would like to go to another topic, if I may.

Oftentimes it takes a tragedy to bring about change, particularly when it comes to safety. Here in Newfoundland, unfortunately you had the Ocean Ranger and then you had the helicopter go down more recently. There was a commission of inquiry headed by Commissioner Wells, and it made a number of recommendations. Some, of course, have been put in. When we visited Cougar Helicopters, we certainly saw their response time and the effectiveness they now have. But there were other recommendations. Have most of the recommendations been put in place?

Mr. Parsons: Yes. I can't tell you exactly how many there were. I can't recall. I saw it recently, but the number escapes me.

The Chair: Thirty-three.

Mr. Parsons: I think the vast majority have actually been put in place. Some of them I think also were not just provincial, but a combination of provincial and federal, so communication has been ongoing for some time. But I do believe the vast majority have been put in place.

Unfortunately, I absolutely agree with your assessment that most often change takes place after a tragedy, and we've had our fair share of them in this province.

Senator McInnis: Yes.

The Chair: I would like to get back to something you mentioned earlier, minister. As you say, we had a happy ending to this weekend, but in the sad outcome of Burton Winters, there seemed to be jurisdictional and communication issues at that time about who should make the call, when they should make the call and who should be responsible. We have, like you said, the problems under the ground search and rescue, but then when you go to sea, it becomes of a federal responsibility. I'm just wondering if you could elaborate on the knowledge of where we were then to where we are now in relation to not only that particular incident but the overall aspect of making sure whose responsibility it is to make the call. It's a step-by-step process. Could you elaborate on that?

Mr. Parsons: Certainly.

We dealt with that almost five years ago now. Back then we were in the opposition; we were not the governing party. We made a call at that time to have an inquiry into this matter, because a lot of questions were raised at that time over this tragedy.

When I was put into cabinet on December 15, 2015, I was given a mandate letter by the premier, part of which stated that I was to conduct three inquiries. Two of them are not relevant to this committee, but one of them is to conduct an inquiry into the death of Burton Winters and talk about our search and rescue. So part of my mandate within the hopefully four years that I get to serve in this role will be to conduct an inquiry into this situation.

Without talking about any actual finding of fact, because I don't think there have been, I'm sure within these agencies there have been discussions and reviews of what happened. Our government plans on holding an inquiry into this matter, so we can actually talk about those specific issues that you discussed.

In fact, my office had a telephone call yesterday with Minister Goodale's office to talk about this, because it's not just a provincial inquiry. It will require cooperation from the federal government. I've spoken personally to Minister Goodale to discuss this. I've been promised full federal cooperation into this matter. Only at that point will we have a true public understanding of what happened and what the shortcomings and the deficiencies were, if any. I look forward to establishing that inquiry. It's unfortunate that three years have passed since the time of that incident specifically, and then when we came in.

I have three inquiries. One is actually ongoing right now in this province. Logistically and resource speaking, we think it's only feasible to hold one inquiry at a time. A significant amount of resources go into holding these. I'm learning firsthand how much actually goes into this type of venture. So we look forward after the conclusion of the current inquiry, which is supposed to wrap up and present a report on July 1, to moving forward in establishing the Burton Winters inquiry. I've received emails of support from Mr. Winters' family saying that they support this.

What I can say is since that time, whether you talk to our policing agencies, our search and rescue people or to anybody involved, I think a lot of steps have been taken. The big one at the top of that list comes back to communication. I think there was obviously a lack of communication in some regard. I don't want to sit here and pinpoint blame or fault or anything like that, but when you have a situation like this, obviously improvements can be found.

I think the purpose of any inquiry is twofold. The first thing is you need to establish the facts. You need to figure out what happened, why it happened and establish that. The second part, and perhaps most importantly — and this is what we've dealt with, whether it's the Ocean Ranger or our Cougar inquiry — is a set of recommendations to prevent incidents like this from happening again.

We've had our share of tragedies in this province that have led to inquiries and things of that nature. It's unfortunate that they come from times of tragedy, but if there's any silver lining to be taken, and we have support from the families, we can find ways to prevent this from happening to other families and people in this province.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Minister. That's welcome news for sure. I'm sure many people in the province have been waiting for that and fully understand the work that goes with it.

Judge Wells wasn't available to be here today to answer questions and make a presentation, but we're looking forward to it. We've invited him, once we get the schedule straight, to appear before us in Ottawa. We're looking forward to hearing his feedback.

Senator Christmas?

Senator Christmas: Thank you, Minister Parsons for being here.

I was struck yesterday by the vastness of Labrador in the flight over to Goose Bay. I've been to your province many times, mostly through North Sydney and Port aux Basques, but that's the first time I've ever flown over Labrador. I was struck by how vast the area is. I'm from Cape Breton, and to go to that part of your province, I'm just amazed how vast it is.

I really don't know a lot about the circumstances around Burton Winters' sad situation, and I'm very pleased to hear that you propose to look further into that whole issue. Given that it happened close to five years ago, just for my own benefit, could you please describe what happened to Mr. Winters? Now that you're on the verge of doing a further inquiry, what were some of the initial lessons learned from that search?

I fully appreciate and understand an inquiry will uncover more facts, but I'm sure that many of the agencies involved in that search have already have made some changes or tried to make some improvements to help mitigate any kind of situation like that in the future. I would appreciate, Minister Parsons, for my benefit, if you could describe what happened and some of the possible changes that may come from this.

Mr. Parsons: That was a tragedy in this province. Anytime you have the loss of a life of this nature, it's a tragedy, but when you look at this, and we have a young man, it was particularly traumatic for the province. It was huge issue in this province. It dominated the news media. I think it was even a national story.

As I understand the facts, Burton was from Makkovik, which is in northern Labrador. I don't know if you've had a chance to fly over there. Hopefully at some point you will. This past fall I actually got to see Makkovik for the first time.

He went missing from Makkovik on Sunday evening, January 29, 2012. He was out ski-dooing and was last seen leaving his grandmother's house in the afternoon. He was found three days later. He walked about 19 kilometres on the sea ice from his abandoned ski-doo, and he was about 22 kilometres from Makkovik.

My colleague Randy Edmunds, who is the MHA for Torngat Mountains and is actually from Makkovik, is one of the people who helped in the rescue and in finding Mr. Winters. I'll never forget him standing in the house and talking about reaching into Burton's pocket and finding his cellphone. He had a cellphone, but there was no cell service. That is something that sticks with me because it could have easily happened anywhere to a lot of people.

Actually, it's unfortunate; maybe at some point Randy Edmunds will get a chance to talk about this. This is someone who lives off the land in Labrador. He's also a legislator and was involved in that particular situation and doesn't mind speaking about it, because it was really hard on him.

What it came down to, from my understanding, is that obviously calls were being made, but I don't know in terms of people acknowledging who was going to take the lead, who was responsible, because you're getting into that mix of whether it is inland or not inland. Who is actually responsible? Is it the Coast Guard or is it inland search and rescue? Is it the JRCC? A number of calls were being made: Who's the lead agency and who will lead this?

I don't want to get into a fact pattern of what happened because I can't say. I don't think I can say accurately or with any certainty what actually happened, but that's why we need the inquiry, so we can lay out in defined detail what exactly happened. Which calls were made at exactly what time? Who responded? We need to lay that out. The purpose of the inquiry is to see what happened there and where the shortcomings were.

What I can say is that thankfully there have been changes pre-inquiry. A lot of meetings took place that same year with the different stakeholders and groups involved. The Joint Rescue Coordination Centre then developed a protocol where they would open a file in response to any call received. I don't think that was the protocol prior to that time. I think that's been a big change in how things happen. The JRCC calls the incident commander, which could be the local police force — and in that case it would have been RCMP — to figure out and to get a sense of what is happening on the ground and then monitor the situation and deploy the resources as necessary.

I know there have been a lot of meetings. We have these federal-provincial-territorial meetings, the FPTs. In the years that followed, I think there were a number of those meetings to discuss this. The province itself went out and bought thermal-imaging search equipment. I think there was a recognition then that we needed a greater access to federal resources, and I think that has happened.

A lot of this would have happened prior to my time in government, so I would not be privy to all it. Some of it would have been Fire and Emergency Services or other portfolios.

Even then, we entered into a memorandum of understanding with CASARA, the Civil Air Search and Rescue Association. I'm sure you're aware of them. We have that memorandum there because it's not just a provincial or federal component here. I think that there is a need to rely on these people with that expertise.

Also, knowing that the commitment was made regarding the Maritime Rescue Sub-Centre was obviously very big for the province. That was something we dealt with over a number of years.

So those are the facts of what happened with Burton in terms of the timeline. I can tell you that it was a huge issue in this province. I'm sure there's not a person in this province who doesn't know the name Burton Winters. I'm confident of that.

It has taken some time. There have been steps. It's not like nothing has been done in between. I think there's been a recognition that things needed to change and that has happened. But I also think that the province and everybody needs to know exactly what happened in terms of the actual details, the fine details, and then maybe formally or officially allow for changes to be made and take those steps necessary. That is same as what has come out of any number of inquiries, including the one done by Justice Wells with Cougar.

Senator Christmas: I've heard this several times in the last couple of days, including from search and rescue commanders. Forgive me for my lack of knowledge, but I get the sense that there is uncertainty or a need for clarity on the mandate of search and rescue. I get the sense that there is some fuzziness, if I may use that word, between what is federal responsibility and what is provincial responsibility. Am I correct to say that there's a need to define clearly the mandate of search and rescue?

Mr. Parsons: Well, I don't think that further communication, education or clarity is a bad thing in any situation. I'm sure you folks around this table have heard a lot more about this over the last number of days and weeks than I have. If you're hearing this, then it's probably a good indication that there is some sort of fuzziness. And fuzziness is not a good thing when we talk about something that's time sensitive. So I don't think it's a bad idea to clearly line up how this operates.

This is certainly not a blame issue. We have two different levels of government involved. You've already got that laid out. Whenever you're the sole decision maker, it's a lot easier. But now you already have two there, and under those two, you have a number of different agencies. Just looking in the province, we have the RNC, the RCMP, search and rescue, the provincial government air service, and Fire and Emergency Services. That's just at the provincial level. Then you look at the federal level and you have different entities involved.

I don't know if there's a fuzziness as to who has jurisdiction, because where did this particular incident occur? Did it start on land and end out at sea? And sometimes, as we've seen, it can happen in places like Labrador.

We've made some notes here and we've talked to a lot of people. I think the end goal is that we have to have the right equipment and right capabilities at the right place and at the right time. What is the best way to put that out there and who's responsible?

I think there needs to be a recognition that we have to do everything to make sure we put all the necessary assets in play, because what's the point of having a conversation or argument about who should do this and who should do that or should we do this or should we not? It's better to have it outlined very clearly and put everything out there, because it's a lot different having a conversation about it when things go wrong than when they go right.

Senator Christmas: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Parsons: One conversation we've been having quite a bit, and I know you've been hearing it also, is the possibility of alternative service delivery, going to private entities who have capabilities and are willing to play a role. I mean, they are involved in the offshore. That's a conversation that we've had as well. Is there a role that they can play? I never have an issue with considering alternates, because at the end of the day, the whole purpose is whether we can improve what we have, and if there's room for improvement, then we need to be open to consideration.

The Chair: As an aside, the weekend we had the rescue operation, the boat was left to drift on the ocean and it became an environmental concern, which stepped over to an environmental issue versus a rescue issue. So things change even in the same geographical area.

The search and rescue people told us yesterday that their primary concern was the rescue. Once that was completed, the boat was operating on water with nobody there, so that became an environmental issue, which stepped over to another department. Things cross jurisdictions. So as the minister said, bringing it all together to make sure that at least somebody is calling the shots at the end of the day is what's vitally important. Lives are at stake.

Senator Hubley?

Senator Hubley: Thank you again for your answers to these questions.

When we're talking about search and rescue, "response time'' is probably the one phrase on everybody's mind: How long does it take? When you mentioned that search and rescue falls under at least two jurisdictions, federal and provincial, it starts to lengthen response time. I think you even suggested that it might be better to have a stand-alone search and rescue ministry or organization that has the ability to evaluate the capabilities and the available equipment.

I look at young Mr. Winters and the time it took. It doesn't become search and rescue; it's search and recovery. When you're talking about response time, it's not the time that somebody in his family decided that this young man was missing. What are the steps? But then when is the appropriate response made to the appropriate organization? As you had said, there are different organizations involved. In some instances, success may depend on getting that appropriate search and rescue organization in place at an earlier time. They have the ability to do searches at night. They have search and rescue skills. They know how to do it. This is what they're trained to do. That has to be taken into consideration when you're doing your inquiry. Response time is not just what time you get the first person there but when you get the most appropriate response to the scene. And that takes, I'm sure, some communication, I think was the term you used, and I think it bodes well.

Another issue that I would like to highlight would be the work and the support that the auxiliary needs. We heard about a fisherman who did not return, but it was not that it was reported. It was the people on the wharf, his colleagues, the auxiliary members, who realized that his truck was still on the wharf and that he was still out there and he shouldn't have been out there. So that's the value on the ground that we have to support. I guess it sounds a little bit like that's just an incident, but it happens every day. These people are out there looking after each other and sometimes they're going the full mile without full support. I think it would be wise for us in Canada to look at how important search and rescue is to us. How important is this?

We see the North opening up. We see that there could be a cruise ship incident up there. Can we respond to that? So if we feel that it's important, then we have to put the resources behind it.

Thank you. I'll get off of my soapbox now.

The Chair: Thank you, senator.

Would you like to respond?

Mr. Parsons: Yes, certainly; I don't mind.

I'm going to apologize in advance. I am looking at the clock. Our House of Assembly opens in 24 minutes. Being the house leader, if I'm not there, I will be in trouble.

I agree completely with what you're saying. We're not just talking about the fishing industry. When you mentioned cruise ships, that brought me right back to the fact that we have a huge influx of tourists into this province and people coming for adventure. That's one of the other things we deal with. So it's one thing to have that local knowledge where someone you know has gone out fishing and the truck is down on the wharf and their family and friends know.

We also have a number of people coming to this province that have no family; they have no friends. In many cases, I don't think they accurately research what they're trying to do. We have a lot of adventure seekers. I've seen people — I'm trying to think of a very diplomatic word to use for these people. They're going to sail from here to Britain in a little tiny boat and they maybe don't take the necessary steps to think that through. That presents a huge challenge. I've dealt with it myself.

A couple of years ago I had young people from the United States come here. I met them through friends of friends. They were going circumnavigate the province in kayaks in May. There were many attempts to talk to these people and say, "Are you sure you know what you're doing? I know you're brave and experienced, but you're 21 years old, and this is a different province; you're from California.'' Again, that led to a Coast Guard rescue. So we have these challenges.

You talked about "stand-alone,'' but it comes down local knowledge being imperative as well. It comes down to a number of different considerations. Is it stand-alone? It probably will remain federal-provincial in some cases, but you need that coordination.

We tried to eliminate the number of steps in between because the number of calls leads to increased time, which doesn't help the process, but we want to find a way to have the best coordination of these calls happening all along.

The other thing is that no matter what you do — and we especially see this in this province when it comes to ground search and rescue or offshore — you need that local knowledge. You can have all the assets you want, but if you don't maintain the local knowledge — because every province, and not just ours, which is so vast, the knowledge differs depending on where you are in the province. There's a difference between Labrador and Newfoundland, and you have to maintain that some way, somehow and have access to that information. No matter who runs this, they need to have that.

Senator McInnis: It's a matter of jurisdiction. Virtually everything we've talked about here today is federal. It falls in the federal domain, whether you're talking about the Canadian Coast Guard or about the Canadian Armed Forces. But it's interesting and I think it's positive that the Province of Newfoundland is taking an active role here. You're surrounded by some of the most dangerous waters in the world, and so I think it's important that you do that.

We've seen and heard over the last day or so that there is a need for change and that you don't have the jurisdiction to do it. Whether you're talking about privatization, where it may be more advantageous, who knows, it cannot remain solely in Ottawa. I'm not sure that they have the feet on the ground to make the right decision in your interests, and I think that has to be kept in mind.

The Chair: Final comments?

Mr. Parsons: I tend to agree that whenever you deal with a matter of federal jurisdiction, and this is for any province, when it affects your people, then it's your issue. So I don't care who's in charge of it. These are our people. These are our friends, our family, our constituents, and I know our senators would know that, especially in this province. For such a large province, it's a very small population, and we're all pretty much connected.

So yes, I think that we have a role to play. We need to play that role.

I guess what I would say in concluding is that we have a number of challenges to face: jurisdictional, communication, you name it. We have to have an open mind to trying new things. But if we don't maintain the level of communication between the feds and the province, we're never going to get anywhere.

It's like anything. When I used to practise family law, we used to say that you have to keep in mind the best interests of the children. That was the guiding principle. Well, I'd say when it comes to search and rescue, you have to keep top- of-mind the best interests of the people of our province, whether they're on land or at sea. That has to be the paramount feature that guides where we go. What is in the best interests of our people when we talk about search and rescue, which is a life-saving necessity? That's what should guide us in how we move this and determining resources and who runs this, who runs that. What needs to guide us is that this involves people and it's a life and death issue.

The Chair: On behalf of the committee members, thank you, Minister Parsons and Ms. Walsh, for your time here this morning. We have certainly had a great discussion and thank you for making a presentation to us. Our report is not due until later in the fall and we may be pushed out on that, but if anything comes up in the meantime that you think we should be made aware of, some guidance you can give us or suggestions you can make, feel free to contact the clerk of our committee. Thank you for your time here this morning.

I want to now welcome our next panel of witnesses and ask that they introduce themselves. The floor is yours.

Howard Power, Watch Supervisor, MCTS Centre Placentia Bay, Canadian Coast Guard: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and senators, for the opportunity to appear before the committee. My name is Howard Power. I'm a shift supervisor with the Canadian Coast Guard Marine Communications and Traffic Services, MCTS, at Placentia MCTS Centre in Argentia, Newfoundland. I have been an employee with the Canadian Coast Guard for 14 years, including 11 years at Placentia MCTS. With me here today from the Coast Guard is Mr. Andrew Colford, MCTS officer at the centre located in Port aux Basques, Newfoundland. At this time, I would ask Andrew to introduce himself to the committee.

Andrew Colford, Officer, MCTS Centre Port aux Basques, Canadian Coast Guard: Good morning everybody. My name is Andrew Colford. For almost seven years, I've been working with Marine Communications and Traffic Services in Port aux Basques. If I may quickly elaborate, what sets my station apart in Newfoundland and Labrador is that we are the only station that provides bilingual services to the mariners. We are also responsible for issuing notices to shipping for the entire province, which I can elaborate on if need be.

Mr. Power: As part of the search and rescue process, we as MCTS officers monitor marine radio frequencies for distress or emergency situations. Once a marine distress call is received, we coordinate the communications with that vessel and the Joint Rescue Coordination Centre, who are responsible for coordinating and tasking responding vessels to ensure that help is delivered promptly. MCTS services are provided 24 hours a day, seven days a week, from five centres in the Atlantic region: Placentia, Port aux Basques, Goose Bay, Sydney and Halifax.

In my current position as shift supervisor, I'm responsible for the supervision of MCTS officers and the centre's operations. Our responsibilities include the provision of marine safety information, monitoring marine radio frequencies, and the regulation of vessel traffic to professional mariners, fish harvesters and recreational boaters. The provision of these services ensures the safety of life at sea and protection of the marine environment. One of the best analogies that we have is that we are a combination of a 911 centre and the air traffic controller for the seas.

On behalf of my colleague Andrew and myself, I would like to once again thank you for the invitation to speak with you today. We look forward to responding to your questions and explaining MCTS's role in the search and rescue process.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Power and Mr. Colford, for taking the time to join us and give us your perspectives as we continue our study into search and rescue.

As always, we go to first questions from our deputy chair, Senator Hubley.

Senator Hubley: Thank you both for being with us today. We've had an opportunity to do some travelling across this great country. You live in a magnificent part of the world, so it's been a pleasure for us to be here.

Andrew, you had suggested you might elaborate on your role. Did you say you provide the only bilingual services? I'd like you to comment on your role, please.

Mr. Colford: Certainly.

Where the west coast of the island of Newfoundland shares some water up the Strait of Belle Isle with the Quebec coast, the west coast of Newfoundland operators do provide bilingual services. That's where we are most likely to encounter French calls of a search and rescue nature, but of any nature. It could just be someone calling for a radio check or to ask about weather, something very routine. We are the ones that need to be on standby ready to take distress calls in either English or French.

Senator Hubley: So you're on call 24 hours a day? There's somebody there to take a call if it should come in; is that correct?

Mr. Colford: There is someone maintaining listening watch at all times at our station. It's unpredictable. We can be having a routine conversation and all of a sudden someone calls for help over the radio and we have to be there. We are the eyes and ears, and we are the ones who take that call initially and respond.

Senator Hubley: What is the next step when you get a distress call? Is it an immediate response or is there an assessment of the situation? Is that something that you do or is that something that somebody else would do? How does the process proceed from there?

Mr. Colford: The short answer would be that if a mariner calls for help or uses the word "mayday,'' we will not question that. We will take it to the highest level. We can downgrade it afterwards. But as soon as someone says, "We need help,'' we're not going to argue. We will respond.

There are procedures in place. There is information that we need to gather to be able to provide that help. It's a fair list, but most importantly, location or position. Where is the vessel that needs assistance and how many people are onboard? If we've got that information alone, we've got something to work with. Past that, there is the nature of the distress and what type of assistance is required. Are there any other vessels in the area? The list goes on. There are key bits of information that we need immediately in order to provide assistance.

From there, we have our own procedures. We would immediately, with what we call a mayday relay, use all our equipment and go out with all kinds of distress alarms to alert all mariners that there is a vessel in this area that needs assistance. Further to that, we would contact search and rescue and it would be up to, right now, the Joint Rescue Coordination Centre to decide what resources will be dispatched to provide assistance.

Senator Hubley: Do you have any other comment on that, Mr. Power?

Mr. Power: No, what Andrew says is correct. We're there first. We're the first responders. We get the message directly and then we go right back to them and alert whoever we can.

It's a team operation. Usually the person who takes the call, there's other people in the office with us. Someone else will probably take it upon themselves to contact the JRCC at this time so that there's instantaneous alerting for additional resources, if need be, while the first responder is communicating directly with the vessel that's in trouble or needs assistance.

Senator Hubley: Thank you.

The Chair: Mr. Power, back in the early 1990s there was Brander-Smith report in relation to the possibility of an accident in Placentia Bay pretty well at that time, and the 200 days of fog in Placentia Bay and the heavy increase of traffic. That was 27 years ago. I'm wondering if you could give the committee some idea of the traffic flow in and out of Placentia Bay at the present time and the possibility of being prepared in case of an accident.

Mr. Power: Yes, certainly, Mr. Chair. Being from Placentia Bay, I'm well aware of the amount of fog that's there year round.

There's a tremendous amount of activity in Placentia Bay due to the oil industry. Right now, there's one of the greatest volumes of oil movement on the East Coast of North America actually. Everyday there's at least one to two tankers either inbound or outbound, 80 miles from entering Placentia Bay until it reach the refinery, as well as a lot of recreational boaters. There are over 300 islands in Placentia Bay. There's constant traffic back and forth, especially in the summertime; in the wintertime, not so much, but big volume.

In the springtime, we have the crab fishery in Placentia Bay. There's a tremendous amount of activity there. Of course, the best crab fishing, as Mr. Chair knows, is in the centre of the bay, right in the traffic lanes for the tankers. So in springtime, it's a pretty daunting task to monitor this vessel traffic.

We have radars in place throughout Placentia Bay to monitor this traffic. We have to keep a close eye on it certainly. Fishermen, when they're fishing, they're on their gear and unable to move. Many times we have to alert the incoming and outgoing tankers about the various positions of fishermen. That would be our busiest time, for sure.

Plus there are recreational boaters. We have boaters from away that don't know the geography or the situation in Placentia Bay. We have to be aware of those at all times as well. There can be a lot of traffic.

The Chair: Is language an issue with foreign tankers?

Mr. Power: It can be. The first half of the bay — for senators who don't know, the tankers pick up a pilot at the midpoint of the bay, and professional pilots guide the tankers in from there and into Come by Chance. But certainly from the onset, when they enter Placentia Bay, for about 40 miles, we have a lot of foreign tankers.

Of course, there always has to be someone who speaks English there. It might not be the greatest. For certain, there are a few challenges with language, but in persistently speaking with them, we usually convey our messages as to any obstacles in their path. It seems to work pretty well.

We haven't had any major problems with the local fishermen due to language.

Senator McInnis: I thank you very much for coming this morning.

When the Transportation Safety Board appeared before us a while ago, they said as a result of restructuring in 2012 that MCTS centres do not always contact the board directly after an incident and that any delay would cause problems in terms of their investigative work being early on the ground. Do you know that to be a fact? They tell us that it has caused some problems. Have you experienced that or do you want to comment?

Mr. Colford: In terms of search and rescue, senator, our procedures involve distributing reports which are done hopefully in a timely manner. When a vessel calls for help, the first priority obviously is responding over the radio or phone to that vessel and ensuring that help is provided, but we are expected to publish a report in a timely manner. It can be incomplete. A search and rescue case can take some time to conclude, but the information does get out in a timely manner and the Transportation Safety Board is included in the distribution of that report.

Furthermore, be it a vessel in distress or a vessel simply reporting a defect that may affect its ability to navigate properly at sea, Transport Canada is advised over the phone and through these reports.

Senator McInnis: That's not what they told us, but that's fine.

Let me turn to staffing problems. We've heard difficulties with human resources, that staffing in centres such as yours, the Joint Coordinating Rescue Centre, and so on, is becoming a challenge and that a dip is coming and a number of people will be leaving. Have you experienced that or do you see that as a problem in being able to staff up and remain current?

Mr. Power: Senator, for sure there are staffing issues right now. We're a little understaffed in Placentia, as well as in Port aux Basques, but not understaffed to be a problem. I mean there's enough there. There is quite a bit of overtime. It hasn't been a major issue yet, but staffing processes are currently underway. We actually have a new staff member now training. Recruiting is still going on at the college and stations are hoping to get more staff as soon as possible.

It's true there are a number of officers reaching the age where there could be a bunch go at one time, but recruiting is ongoing. They're always trying to get people to the college to fill the gaps.

Senator McInnis: We were at the Coast Guard College in Cape Breton. Are your staff trained? Do they graduate from there and come to you?

Mr. Power: Yes, senator. It's a six- to seven-month process. When people are recruited to go into the program, they go to the college for about approximately six and a half to seven months training in all the aspects. When they are assigned to a specific location, there's also an on-the-job training aspect to learn the nuances of the position that they're going to. So this could take anywhere from five to six months. It's a little longer now with the consolidation of offices. There's a little more to learn at each station, given the bigger areas. So it's a little longer. But a fair amount of training does take place.

Senator McInnis: It's a challenging position and you're to be commended for what you do, make no mistake about that. But I would think there'd be more calling for it and for individuals. Is it communicated well? Is the enrolment at the college sufficient? I would think that we'd be able to funnel them through and have no problem whatsoever with staffing.

Mr. Power: Well, senator, enrolment at college is a little above us.

Senator McInnis: Yes.

Mr. Power: But I know that the tests are written fairly often for the position. I don't have the numbers as to how many actually apply, but the jobs go out through the usual government procedures for hiring. But as to how many people they're actually getting into these positions and writing the initial test, I don't have that number.

Senator McInnis: I appreciate that. We've heard that it's particularly a challenge in the Coast Guard to fill positions, and I'm not sure why that would be. I mean, it's a noble calling for sure, and I think the remuneration is satisfactory.

Anyway, thank you very much for that and thank you for coming.

Mr. Power: You're welcome.

Senator Doyle: I just want to touch again on the Coast Guard Auxiliary in Newfoundland and Labrador. I had no idea we had 700 people involved in the Coast Guard Auxiliary in Newfoundland and 300 privately owned vessels involved as well. How do they interface with the Coast Guard? Do you have any great involvement with the auxiliary in the province? Do you give them direction, orders and funding? Is there any funding that goes to the Coast Guard Auxiliary at all? What is the membership and what do they do, essentially?

Mr. Power: Those are good questions, senator.

Yes, there is funding available to the auxiliary. I'm not really privy to the intricacies of their funding through the Coast Guard, but they play an important role in our jobs. The Coast Guard Auxiliary is almost always the first responder to incidents. When a call comes in, especially for a vessel that's in trouble and needs assistance immediately, when our call goes out, it's almost always Coast Guard Auxiliary or, for that fact, other fishermen who are the first to respond. Auxiliary members certainly are there and in my experience are one of the first on the scene to effect rescue or to assist the mariners.

You say that there are many auxiliary members, but there are still a lot of places on the island where we don't have the auxiliary. We could certainly use more. There are certain places where a vessel, not necessarily in trouble, needs assistance, is broken down, and we try to get the auxiliary members.

Senator Doyle: So the membership in that auxiliary would be fishermen and sports fishermen? Who would be involved in it?

Mr. Power: I'm not certain, senator, but I believe the majority would be the local fishermen. I know a few personal boaters who are involved, but the majority would be local fishermen for sure.

Senator Doyle: Could I ask you a question on the marine traffic centres? They closed one in St. Anthony. Are we still able to provide the same level of service now that that marine centre is gone for that area?

Mr. Power: Yes, St. Anthony closed, and St. John's moved out to our area in Placentia, which came as a shock. But with today's technology, all the circuits, the towers, the communications that were operated through St. Anthony and St. John's were rerouted to our centres. It seems to be pretty seamless to the mariners as long as they make a call and someone's answering. Whether it is St. Anthony or St. John's, it comes to us now. We have control of any resources that the other centres had.

The bottom line is that the mariners are still getting a response. They're still going to call St. John's. They're still calling St. Anthony, but it's just somebody else answering on behalf of them. So as far as service goes, it's business as usual.

Senator Doyle: I'm referring to my notes here. I'm not a member of the committee, so I'm not totally familiar with what we're dealing with here, but there seems to be a difference of opinion with regard to the location of fixed-wing aircraft. Newfoundland is saying that any new fixed-wing aircraft should be located here, but the federal government, I believe, is talking about B.C., Nova Scotia, Ontario and Manitoba as being the ideal places to locate the fixed-wing aircraft. Do you know if there's any communication between the Coast Guard and the federal government on where these fixed-wing aircraft should be located in the future? Would you have any opinion on that? Maybe it's not in your jurisdiction.

Mr. Colford: It is a very good question, senator, but we are perhaps not the best people to answer it. Perhaps it's best directed towards someone at the Joint Rescue Coordination Centre.

Senator Doyle: I would think we'll have people along today who will be able to answer that, but I really don't know what your area of expertise happens to be. But anyway, thank you. Appreciate it.

Mr. Power: Well, senator, we're basically the messengers.

Senator Doyle: Are you? Okay. "We take the call. We pass it and we get help.'' Okay. Thank you very much.

The Chair: As a follow-up to Senator Doyle's question on the centres themselves, with the closing of St. Anthony and St. John's, I know there have been infrastructure improvements to the other centres. This afternoon Mayor Simms from St. Anthony is going to be here, and I'm sure we'll hear all about the St. Anthony closure and the concerns he has.

Can you tell us about what has happened since the closures in relation to improvements and enhancements at the present centres? You mentioned that assets in St. John's moved to Placentia. Maybe you can give us an idea of where you were before the closure of St. John's and St. Anthony was announced to where you are today in relation to the level of service.

In my hometown, everybody had the number for the Placentia MCTS. Every fisherman knew it almost as good as their social insurance number. They just had it. One of the things we talked about here this morning was communication. There's no doubt in my mind of the communication between the fishermen and the MCTS. Maybe you could touch on how you get the message out about your centre and the services you have to the people who are on the ocean. There's never an issue, to my knowledge, of local fishermen having the access to your centre and the knowledge of it. So maybe just touch on the improvements, enhancements and the communications side of it.

Mr. Power: Well, with the amalgamation of the centres, there was a whole reconfiguration of our equipment actually. It was all modernized and brought up to more international standards. When they brought that in, that's when they brought the resources from the other centres. They amalgamated everything together at that time so that we would be able to provide the same service to everyone, even though we're out there. The telephone lines were all rerouted to our centres.

As you can imagine with the telephones, in the first few months, people were calling St. John's and getting bounced around and sent out to Placentia because we always answer as Placentia. There might have been a little confusion for the first while, but that has changed considerably over the last year. Most people do know now that St. John's is gone and calls just come into our centre.

There are basically three jobs in our centre. One is the listening watch for distress, monitoring radios, basically 911, just listening.

Another position is monitoring the traffic in Placentia Bay, in and out specifically.

The other one is monitoring the St. John's harbour and outlying areas. That position came from St. John's right to Placentia, and it is still called "St. John's traffic.'' People still call in on the phone for St. John's traffic and we just basically pass it over.

We have two lines at our centre and most of the users know now which line to call for which position they want. Of course the lines ring on everyone's phone and we just transfer them over, but as time goes on, it's more structured as to who they're looking for. So communication is getting a lot better.

The Chair: We've heard so much about communication since we started this study and the lack of communication in some cases. We heard from the minister this morning in relation to the Burton Winters' tragedy, as an example.

As I said earlier, everybody seems to know how to contact you guys, without a doubt. How do you go about that? Is it word of mouth? Is it passed on? Is it advertised? Is it sent to the fishermen in the area? I'm trying to find out how we can improve communications in other areas because communications with you guys doesn't seem to be an issue in regards to the fishermen and the MCTS. Maybe you can touch on that.

Mr. Colford: It is an important question, senator. There are many ways.

As I mentioned earlier, at Port aux Basques we issue what are called notices to shipping for the whole of Newfoundland and Labrador. As a general example, when a buoy is reported off position, we would publish a document that's broadcast over the radio and published to our website indicating that this aid to navigation is not operating as it should.

Also, in the case of a station closure, we would give sufficient notice via that means that, for example, St. John's Marine Communications and Traffic Services will be closing effective a specific date and services will then be provided by Placentia Marine Communications and Traffic Services. Now with something of that nature, it would go out in the media as well. The Coast Guard would ensure that word got out there. But that is the primary means to get that information out there.

Mr. Power: If I may add to that, there probably could have been more media. There didn't seem to be a lot of media information out there about the amalgamation. The fact that a lot of people are still calling St. John's Coast Guard, we just answer the call. I mean, 20 years ago, they closed the one in St. Anthony. We still have fishermen in Fortune Bay calling St. Anthony Coast Guard radio all the time. So it's going to take a while.

We seem to get a lot of repeat business, and the users that call us frequently know the situation. But for sure in the summertime, we get a lot of people coming in who still call "St. John's, St. John's.'' So there may not have been a lot of media information out there about the changes.

Like I say, it's word of mouth between the fishermen. What's going on in the local area goes around pretty quickly.

The Chair: I'm not 100 percent sure I heard you correctly. When you spoke earlier in relation to the closure of St. John's and St. Anthony and moving the assets to Placentia, you used the word "shocked.'' Were you shocked at the closure of the centre or were you shocked at the fact it moved from St. John's to Placentia? I'm not sure exactly what you were shocked about. I'd like to know.

Mr. Power: Well, a little overall. Being from Placentia, I was happy to learn that it was staying in Placentia for sure. But to move from a major city out to Placentia, I guess there were a lot of other mitigating circumstances. I mean, we do have a lot of traffic there. Maybe the oil industry had something to do with it there with the amount of traffic, but in my experience, I'm glad I'm staying put.

The Chair: I'm glad you stayed put, too.

Senator Christmas?

Senator Christmas: Mr. Power, you mentioned that you were with MCTS for 14 years, and I was interested in your comment about equipment modernization. I assume that over those 14 years, you've seen the technology develop, grow and increase. Today, in 2017, do your centres have the most modern technology that you could possibly have? And if you were to improve the equipment, what would that be?

Mr. Power: Well, senator, it's certainly an upgrade to what we had on the station when I got there, because the equipment was certainly outdated at that time. But as you know, with technology changing every day and by the time it takes the whole process to go through to get new equipment, of course, like your own computer at home, it's almost outdated by the time you get it. There's always something better out there. But the new equipment is certainly leaps and bounds above what we originally had.

We have, right now, three consoles at our office and there's also a fourth one for overload in case we have multiple situations. All this equipment is interchangeable. We can move one set of equipment and bring it up in different consoles and be able to interact and bring everyone in together as a team, which is a vast improvement over what was there when I arrived. And even that equipment wasn't new. It was brought up from a previous centre that had closed.

To your question, certainly there is newer technology out there. What we have now is new in terms of what was available and how quick you can get it there with the tender process and the whole process of modernizing.

Senator Christmas: So would it be a fair statement to say that there's a bit of a technology lag within the organization?

Mr. Power: I would think that would be the case in most organizations, just with the whole process, but certainly it's in line with Coast Guard operation centres in Europe and throughout the world. The equipment we have now is in line with other centres, for sure.

Senator Christmas: Thank you, Mr. Power.

The Chair: You mentioned earlier that it's a 24-hour service. Can you give us an idea of how many personnel you have in your respective places? Is somebody there all the time? Is someone in each place 24 hours a day? Maybe you can give us a breakdown on how many people you have at each site?

Mr. Colford: The short answer is yes, there is always someone maintaining the listening watch on the radio equipment. The number one priority is distress calls. There's a long list of duties that we perform, but number one is distress calls.

At Port aux Basques we currently have eight operators. There are two, possibly three, scheduled to arrive within the next six weeks to begin training. They would have completed their six months of training at the Coast Guard College and they'll begin their centre-specific training. So our numbers should come up.

At Port aux Basques, we have two positions that are to be staffed at all times. There's a safety position and a traffic position.

The Chair: So you would have two people 24 hours a day, guaranteed?

Mr. Colford: That's correct.

The Chair: And is that the same situation in Placentia?

Mr. Power: We have three there now, senator, with the St. John's harbour person. So there is a minimum of three there at all times, 24-7. With weather issues and someone can't get in, you don't leave your position until someone replaces you. There's always someone there.

The Chair: And how many do you have on staff total in Placentia MCTS?

Mr. Power: Right now we have staff of 15. There are a few on maternity leave, but 15 positions. So we're short one to two positions right now in total.

The Chair: Mr. Colford touched on people coming in from the college now. Are there plans in place to fill those positions in Placentia?

Mr. Power: Unfortunately, when we have two people off on maternity, you don't replace those people. You have to hold their job. But we do have a new trainee now and plans are to have more people at the college. I'm not certain, sorry, if there's someone there at this very moment, but there will be.

Senator McInnis: I don't know if you've experienced this or not, but the committee was told during its Halifax hearings that some mariners will call 911 when they are in distress or there is an incident. Of course, what happens is they'll call the RCMP, 911 or the fire department. Is that a problem? Have you experienced this?

Mr. Colford: Personally, no, I have not encountered anyone communicating a safety issue by that means.

I would mention as well that the Coast Guard does provide a service called Star 16, where you can pick up your cellphone and dial *16 and your call will be routed directly to us. So in terms of a cellphone, we do have the equivalent of that 911 service available as well.

We have Star 16 at Port aux Basques. If anyone dials *16, that call will come to us at Port aux Basques.

I am aware of shore-based incidents such as an overdue vessel. Someone at home is worried that a family member went out fishing and was supposed to be back three hours ago, and that person does call search and rescue in Halifax directly. The call comes to us and we have certain procedures to follow through on that.

But no, in terms of people calling 911, I haven't experienced that myself.

Senator McInnis: Do you have cell service around the periphery of the island for the most part?

Mr. Power: For the most part, and even offshore. I've had calls 200 miles offshore on a cellphone that sound like they are in the next room. But cellphone technology is not always going to be there.

Senator McInnis: So you do get it. You're privileged in Newfoundland. In Nova Scotia, we don't have the luxury of having cell service all along the coast.

Mr. Power: With different providers. You won't get the same cell coverage for every provider, but it has certainly increased over the last few years.

The Chair: Certainly cell service has increased, but there are still a fair number of places that don't have it. St. Bride's, where I live, doesn't have it, just to let you know. But we have the number for the MCTS.

Senator Doyle: What is the comparison between the number of calls you would get from Labrador as compared to the island portion of the province? Do you keep stats on that? Do you do comparisons? How does Labrador compare to the island portion when it comes to the search and rescue calls that you get?

Mr. Power: Sorry, senator, I don't have those exact numbers, but I would think there would be a lot more on the island portion due to the number of recreational boaters and fishermen. We can get those numbers for you, but I don't have them right now.

Senator Doyle: Would you have any opinion on the need for a permanent search and rescue facility to be operating out of 5 Wing Goose Bay? Would this be a good reason for the federal government to try and maintain 5 Wing Goose Bay, if they used it as a major search and rescue centre for the province? Could it operate in that fashion?

Mr. Power: Well, senator, the more resources the better. For sure we wouldn't be opposed to it.

Senator Doyle: Okay.

Are there countries operating search and rescue more efficiently than we're doing it here in Canada that the committee could look at? I don't know how efficiently search and rescue is being operated within Canada, but are there countries in the world, in North America, that are doing much better on search and rescue in terms of what they have in relation to facilities or how the dollar is spent more cost effectively? Would that be a good study for a committee like ours to undertake? Or you might be of the opinion that our search and rescue is operating highly efficiently and we have no need to look at that.

Mr. Power: Well, senator, I would think there's no need to compare it, but that's probably better left to search and rescue.

Senator Doyle: Probably good to look at it anyway. Don't get me wrong: I know the Coast Guard has a great reputation. I'm not questioning that. But I sometimes wonder if there are areas in which we could be operating more efficiently, with better technology than we have right now. That's difficult to get into, I know.

Mr. Power: There is a point, senator. Of course, we're maintaining a listening watch for our area, Newfoundland, but we hear calls from all over the world. Our receivers pick up calls from overseas. Personally, I have initiated search and rescue for other countries because we've picked up a distress from Spain, from the Caribbean. The process in place is that we contact the rescue centre in Halifax and they pass it on to other countries. But that's a radio thing. Sometimes with the technology, a radio skip, I might hear something in Newfoundland that someone in Spain didn't pick up right away. That's just an atmospheric thing with the radios. But it does happen.

Senator Doyle: Which province or region would be experiencing the most search and rescue incidents? Considering the kind of environment we have here, I would imagine our province would be well up there on the list of the number of incidents that occur, especially in Atlantic Canada.

Mr. Power: Yes, sir. Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and P.E.I., the Maritime provinces in Canada for sure. I know there are over 6,000 Maritime cases in Canada per year.

Senator Doyle: Really?

Mr. Power: I would think, yes.

Senator Doyle: That many.

Mr. Colford: The reality in each region is slightly different. I've only worked with fellow operators who've worked on the Great Lakes in the central region, and they work a high number of search and rescue cases in the summer season with pleasure boaters. But the realities are different because someone who is one or two miles offshore and near another vessel that can assist, they can call for help and that can be dealt with within an hour, versus my colleague here can be speaking to a vessel that's 200 miles offshore, taking on water. Dealing with that matter would take a little more time.

Senator Doyle: The commission of inquiry into the helicopter crash that killed 17 people came up with about 33 recommendations. One of them was that there would be a 15- to 20-minute wheels-up time for any search and rescue. That was for the offshore. Was that extended or should it be extended to all marine traffic and all offshore? I'm not aware of that recommendation ever being approved to apply to all marine traffic that needed search and rescue.

Mr. Power: Senator, that's more logistics for search and rescue themselves, but it's certainly not that quick.

Senator Doyle: Yes.

Mr. Power: That didn't take effect for that short of time, for sure.

Senator Doyle: Thank you.

The Chair: Before we conclude, Mr. Colford, you touched on somebody calling about a boat that is overdue three or four hours, someone from the home base calling. In regards to getting the call, sometimes we'll say that if somebody is missing on land, just wait for 24 hours or so before initiating a response. I know that's not the case, but how does that work? What if somebody calls you today and says, "My husband and son should be due in 6:00. It's now half past ten at night and there is no sign of them''? Is there no limitation on the time? Automatically you go with that? I want to make sure that we have that on the record.

Mr. Colford: That is correct. There's no lag in response.

We're into talking about uncertainty now. There's a vessel overdue. That vessel might be secured in the next community and all is well. There are no problems; it's just there's a concerned person at home who's not sure. So we would put this at the urgency level. This may be of a distress nature, but we're not sure. But in that uncertainty, we would go out with a broadcast to all vessels to say, "The Coast Guard has received a report of an overdue vessel. Here's the description. It's late arriving at this port. Here's the name of the vessel, description and area it was expected to be in. Any vessels with amplifying information, please call and contact.'' In the meantime, our colleagues at search and rescue would be helping with that search, calling around. I have seen at times that a Coast Guard vessel or an auxiliary vessel would be tasked to actually go out and search for the vessel. But there's no lag in response.

The Chair: Thank you. I just wanted to get that on the record.

Thank you to our guests for taking the time here this morning to answer our questions and to have a discussion about your role. If there's something that you may think of after you leave that you wish you had said, feel free to contact us and let us know. We certainly want to thank you for your time and your service.

Mr. Power: Thank you, senators, for having us.

The Chair: Senators, our next witness is Mr. Marcel O'Brien.

Please introduce yourself, Mr. O'Brien. I understand you have some opening remarks.

Marcel O'Brien, First Vice-President and District Director, Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary: Yes.

Good morning, Mr. Chairman and senators, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Marcel O'Brien and I am the First Vice-President and District Director of the Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. I'd like to take this opportunity to tell you about our life-saving organization.

Newfoundland and Labrador has a marine climate and is surrounded by 28,000 kilometres of harsh coastline. The overall climate of the province is marked by considerable seasonality, often with sudden changes to weather patterns that can be difficult to predict and pose a serious threat to mariners.

The Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary, or CCGA, was founded in 1978 when volunteer marine search and rescue groups, boat owners and operators coordinated their equipment, knowledge and training for the purpose of providing assistance to the Canadian Coast Guard in its operations. There are CCGA organizations in each Coast Guard region in Canada. The Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary (Newfoundland and Labrador) Incorporated is a non-profit volunteer organization with the purpose of enhancing marine search and rescue resources in Newfoundland and Labrador.

The groundwork for the creation of the CCGA began in 1976 when founders visited communities throughout Newfoundland and Labrador and encouraged boat owners to become a part of this proposed volunteer organization. Upon completion of this groundwork, a board of directors was created and CCGA (NL) Inc. became incorporated on August 30, 1978. In its initial year of operation, 164 members and 65 vessels volunteered their services and responded to 20 marine search and rescue incidents.

On August 30, 2016, the CCGA celebrated 38 years of volunteers saving lives on the water.

Since incorporation, the organization has grown significantly, with a current membership of 704 members and 337 fishing and pleasure vessels available for tasking. They now represent a significant resource for search and rescue by responding to approximately 40 percent of the marine-related search and rescue incidents in this province, and approximately 95 percent of the membership is involved in the commercial fishing industry.

The CCGA is administered by a board of directors that are elected annually by district members. There are 10 strategically located districts throughout the province, and as the director for Labrador District, I represent 53 members and 26 boats.

The main purpose of the CCGA is to provide the highest level of search and rescue response operations to the marine public. In order to achieve this goal, we must retain current members and work towards growing our membership. This will allow our organization to maintain its current level of operations by replacing those members lost through attrition and also allow us to provide additional coverage to shortfall areas.

The CCGA renews its membership annually. The majority of the vessels currently registered with the CCGA in Newfoundland and Labrador are over 15 gross registered tonnes and therefore are Transport Canada certified. The remaining vessels are less than 15 gross tonnes and require inspection in order to remain active with the organization.

Multi-jurisdictional training is conducted in conjunction with the Canadian Coast Guard and the Department of National Defence. Exercises are jointly facilitated and executed by CCGA staff, CCG staff and DND staff, and the training scenarios are typically of incidents that will occur when plying the waters of the North Atlantic. The CCGA enjoys a close working relationship with these departments.

The CCGA employs two full-time office staff. The business manager is responsible for managing the daily business operations of the organization, and the training officer facilitates the training programs for the region, including the provision of marine basic first aid, and coordination of training seminars highlighting search and rescue specific training and emergency abandonment.

There is an extensive recognition program in place whereby members are awarded for their years of service.

The CCGA is a volunteer organization that enhances the search and rescue resources in Newfoundland and Labrador. Our members take their commitment to the SAR system very seriously and are immensely proud of their contributions. However, it must be remembered that our organization is a resource comprised completely of volunteers, and great pains are taken to ensure personal contact with the members through correspondence, training sessions, phone calls, meetings, equipment issuance and office visits. Without this personal contact, the CCGA would not exist as it does today.

Disaster often strikes closest to home. To highlight the importance of the service provided by our members, the CCGA responded when Cougar Flight 491 ditched on March 12, 2009. Our members also responded locally when the fishing vessel Nautical Legend caught fire. All crew members survived after spending time in the freezing waters of the North Atlantic, one without a survival suit.

From its grassroots beginning, the Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary continues to grow and prosper in Newfoundland and Labrador and strive to meet the ever-increasing challenges of providing assistance to mariners.

Thank you very much for the privilege of speaking here this morning. On behalf of the Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary, I'd like to wish you all a safe and enjoyable visit to Newfoundland and Labrador.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. O'Brien. Before I open the floor for questions from senators, I want to take the opportunity on behalf of the committee to thank you and your volunteers for the service that you provide.

We had the opportunity the other day to speak to a couple of fishermen involved in the volunteer program, and I would love to have some way of bringing together the monetary value of what your members provide to this province because it has to be astronomical given the work that you do. Hopefully our committee can assist in some way to enhance your services to the people here.

As usual, we'll go to our deputy chair, Senator Hubley, for the first question.

Senator Hubley: Thank you very much for your presentation this morning, Mr. O'Brien. I, too, would like to echo the compliments of our chairman on the work that the auxiliary does. The commitment and the care of your fellow seamen are exemplary. I must say that all of the organizations, without exception, have always praised the work that you do.

My question comes back to the number of fishers or boat operators that become involved in the organization. Do you have a percentage of the numbers? What does it entail to become a member of the auxiliary fleet?

Mr. O'Brien: Well, about 95 percent of the auxiliary fleet are fishermen, and in order to become a member, you need an asset. You need to have a boat and the boat has to be inspected to make sure that it meets certain criteria. If the boat is less than 15 tonnes, we have an inspection list. If it's over 15 tonnes, we do not have to inspect it because Transport Canada does that for us.

If there's a shortfall, we encourage the boat owners. We go out and try to recruit people to come in with their boats. We need the assets. The more assets we can get, the better it is.

We do some training with the fishermen or the potential people. Once they become members, they have to do training. We put on training programs in search and rescue, proper search patterns, emergency abandonment, how to get into the life raft and how to put on an immersion suit. Once we take them in as members, we train them in these fields to make sure that they are proficient and able to do the job properly.

Senator Hubley: When you've completed all of the criteria, what about special equipment that you might need during a search and rescue operation? How do you get that? Where does that come from?

Mr. O'Brien: Well, most of the time, a fishing boat would have quite a bit of it on the boat itself, but if we're retrieving a person from the water, we do not have that. So, we go through NIF and get a NIF program from the federal government to get a few — there's not enough for all the boats. In my district, I have 53 boats, so I might get one or two for my district. But a lot of equipment is needed. Other than what the fishermen have on themselves, we get it through the auxiliary or through NIF programs.

Senator Hubley: What is the NIF program?

Mr. O'Brien: The federal government has a funding program for all volunteer organizations. You have to submit a business plan for what you need. If they deem that your business plan is good and it's a good idea, they'll approve it. Some years, we might apply for VHF radios for the boats or for immersion suits. If they think it's worthwhile and not too expensive — it always comes down to money — they will approve our program and we go and get it.

Senator Hubley: Would all of the boats have a pump onboard?

Mr. O'Brien: No. All of the boats need a pump onboard, but that's the same thing again. We go through this program and we apply for pumps. The larger boats would have a pump of their own, but not necessarily one that we could transfer to another boat.

Over the years, the Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary has been able to avail itself of some pumps through these programs. Most of the boats now have some, but they are at the end of their life. I'd say some of them are probably 25 years old. We're trying to get more modern diesel pumps. We got a few of them, but most of the boats haven't got pumps now.

Senator Hubley: Thank you very much for answering those questions.

Senator Doyle: Good morning. I guess when you have 700 volunteers and 300 boats in your system, it has to be difficult to maintain all that if you don't have a funding mechanism that you can take advantage of every year. Is there a structured funding mechanism that you can tap into on an annual basis to keep your organization going? Is that needed? Maybe it's not needed. Maybe you operate on an ad-hoc basis, as needed.

Mr. O'Brien: Well, no, the auxiliary itself gets funding through the Coast Guard to pretty much run the operation. If I was to go on a search operation, I would be paid a per diem, enough to pay for my fuel costs. We use up most of our money and then we do some training. But to have anything to go from year to year to maintain the boats or anything like that, no. Every fisherman is on their own to pretty much maintain their vessel and keep it up to par.

Senator Doyle: When a search and rescue call comes in, are there any protocols to dictate that you have to be contacted, to be made aware in the Labrador area to do all that?

Mr. O'Brien: Yes. If a call comes in, it goes through like the marine rescue centre and they will do their checks. If it's a call coming from my area, they have a list of all the fishermen or all the boats in the auxiliary for a particular area. For instance, I'll just take my community, L'Anse au Loup. If a call comes in that someone is overdue or missing and a search is required, they will give me a call and if my boat is available, I will take the call and go and do the search. If my boat is not available, they will call another fisherman. They have the list of people who they contact in every area, and they will call the people closest to the area where the incident happens.

Senator Doyle: Do you see any difficulty in maintaining your large membership of 700 people?

Mr. O'Brien: No, there's no problem maintaining the membership. Right now we probably need some money for recruiting, especially in some shortfall areas, like in Labrador. It's a very remote area. The Labrador Straits area is pretty much okay because of the road connections. But now we're looking for members in northern Labrador, in Nain and Makkovik. In order to be able to go down there to do recruiting, you either got to go by helicopter or you got to go by plane, and it's expensive. From year to year, the auxiliary does not have the funding to do the extra recruiting that's required.

We have the same problem on the south coast. Recruiting is required on the south coast of the island because there's no road and it's not easy to get in there. So, again, we need some extra funding. The way the funding is set up now, only so much is allocated for training and so much more for operations. So the pool is only small and we don't have the funding to do justice to the recruiting that we need.

Senator Doyle: On search and rescue generally, how do you think 5 Wing could fit into it? Would it be a good idea to have a full-time search and rescue team available at 5 Wing?

Mr. O'Brien: I think it would be an enormous asset, yes.

Senator Doyle: Given the remoteness of Labrador.

Mr. O'Brien: I think it would be an enormous asset because the Coast Guard really hasn't got a boat designated to Labrador, and with the boats that we have in the auxiliary, we cannot do justice to a search in Labrador. We're okay in the southern part. I shouldn't say "okay,'' but we're better in the southern part than we are in the north. In the north we haven't got anything and it's going to be hard to get anything there. So I would think 5 Wing Goose Bay would be a wonderful asset if they had something there.

Senator Doyle: Do you know if there's any communication going on between your group, the Coast Guard Auxiliary, with the federal government on that?

Mr. O'Brien: There's nothing with my group, the auxiliary. There may be something between the Coast Guard and DND.

Senator Doyle: Thank you.

The Chair: Mr. O'Brien, we visited the south side on Monday and had conversations with people involved in the auxiliary and a concern was raised. I don't know if you're fully aware of it at the present time. Right now, the two staff members you have are located in an office in a building on the south side, a small office, but at least they have an office to operate from. The concern is that the new building under construction, due to open I think in 2018, may not have space for the auxiliary to operate from. If that is the case, where do you go from there? There is the cost of renting a spot somewhere else, or can you fit into another building belonging to the federal government in another part of town? Are you aware of that? If the auxiliary doesn't have a place to call home, it's certainly a concern for us as a committee.

Mr. O'Brien: Yes, that's right. I am aware of it. We were told at a meeting recently that as it stands right now there's no space in the new building for the Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary. That is a concern for us because with our current budget we do not have the funds to go out and rent another space. Right now there's no rent being charged. We haven't got the money to go out and rent another place, so I don't know what we will do if they're serious about it. But they did say there's no space in the new building for the auxiliary.

The Chair: So we have an $18.2 million building being built. We have 700 volunteers that are giving an enormous amount of time and effort — and God knows the monetary value of that — and we're not allowing space in the new building for a couple of small offices?

Mr. O'Brien: That's right.

As I indicated, we are doing approximately 40 percent of search and rescue. So if we haven't got a place to operate from, we're probably going to start to lose a lot of our members. If our members lose interest and that figure drops down to perhaps 20 percent, the cost to the Canadian Coast Guard and the federal government is going to go up.

The Chair: Well, I think I speak for my colleagues when I say that that's certainly a major concern, and I don't think we'll be waiting to the end of our report to contact some people on your behalf.

Mr. O'Brien: We appreciate that.

The Chair: It may be too late if we wait until the end of our report. It's something I think that you need to pursue.

Senator McInnis, please.

Senator McInnis: Thank you very much for coming.

The Coast Guard Auxiliary is perhaps analogous to voluntary fire departments. They're not appreciated until they're needed.

Mr. O'Brien: That's right.

Senator McInnis: We've heard in our visit here of the great value of the Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary.

Now, you have an executive director. You have two staff.

Mr. O'Brien: Two staff members.

Senator McInnis: And they basically communicate, write letters, that type of thing?

Mr. O'Brien: Yes.

Senator McInnis: We were discussing the other day that the fishery in Newfoundland, in terms of natural resources, is probably the largest revenue producer, and so the national government gets a considerable amount of that, no doubt.

Mr. O'Brien: No doubt.

Senator McInnis: Senator Hubley touched on the pumps, but when we hear that you're unable even to get rope, it is sad that that would be the case. So the question is: Who has put in the request to the national government for funding? You have to go through the Coast Guard, but we were told that you get $941,000 annually and it's been stagnant.

Mr. O'Brien: That's right.

Senator McInnis: Normally what happens when there are cutbacks in Ottawa is that it affects pretty much everyone across the board. So have you actually manufactured a proper request and has the Coast Guard done likewise?

Mr. O'Brien: We make our request through the Coast Guard. Each year we submit a business plan. Our business plan will go to Ottawa. The Coast Guard reviews the business plan and either approves it, comes back and modifies it or asks us to modify it, and then it goes on. We work through the Coast Guard with our business plan and see if we can get money.

We don't know from year to year if we're going to get an increase. Each year we try to get an increase, but most times they tell us, "It's no good to bother; you're not going to get any.''

We'll just have to keep and maintain what we have and hopefully it stays that way. It's not doing justice to the auxiliary, but like everybody, we try to manage with it. We are doing without a lot in order to try to save lives.

Senator McInnis: And when you have a larger geographical area, that even presents a greater challenge.

Mr. O'Brien: Yes.

Senator McInnis: In terms of communication, you're divided into 62 sections, I understand.

Mr. O'Brien: Well, 62 sections in 10 districts.

Senator McInnis: What is the purpose of that?

Mr. O'Brien: Well, to try to get the boats. Each section has a certain number of boats, so if a resource is needed in a particular area, they know exactly who to call.

Senator McInnis: It's a communication thing?

Mr. O'Brien: Yes.

Senator McInnis: But it doesn't prevent one from travelling from one section to the other?

Mr. O'Brien: Oh, no.

Senator McInnis: You said earlier that your membership is not dropping, that there's no problem.

Mr. O'Brien: No, our membership is not dropping. We're trying to maintain it. If we see a slight decrease in it, we try to recruit new members to fill in. We have it set up through our board of directors. There's a reason for life insurance on each member, and we pay a certain amount each year. So, we take into the auxiliary three people per boat. On my vessel, I'm allowed to have three people: the owner, a co-owner and an alternate skipper, and if one of those people drops off, retires, or whatever, we recruit another person to fill the void.

Senator McInnis: Now, in many jurisdictions — out west, for example — they raise funds on their own. This, of course, presents a challenge for you because of the vast area that you cover and the number of sparse areas, but has any consideration been given to that? I know this is out of your jurisdiction, but has the province done anything with respect to funding or assistance?

Mr. O'Brien: The province, no, not at all. The province hasn't done anything at all with regard to assistance.

And for raising money, we tried that. We didn't have a person designated specifically to raise money and that may be what to have, but we tried to raise some monies. We weren't very successful at it.

Senator McInnis: A number of corporations are involved in the fishery and I would think they might want to contribute to some degree. Of course, that's another large effort that you'd have to have with respect to fundraising.

Mr. O'Brien: Yes.

Senator McInnis: But it's something you should keep your mind open to, if you can.

The Chair: Just say, "Feel free to make a donation any time.''

Senator Christmas?

Senator Christmas: Mr. O'Brien, I'm trying to get a handle on the equipment that your vessels need for search and rescue. I don't understand this field very well, but I would think that if the auxiliary is doing 40 percent of the search and rescues in this province, you would have all the equipment that you would need. But what I've heard over the past couple of days is that you don't. We've heard about the whole rope situation. We heard about the pumps. We asked some questions. We visited a vessel and asked about first aid equipment.

I understand you have 337 vessels within the auxiliary and that you don't have a standard list of search and rescue equipment that each vessel should carry.

Mr. O'Brien: No, we do not have a standard. It's too expensive for most fellows on their own to be able to put it on there.

Senator Christmas: Yes.

Mr. O'Brien: We know the equipment we need for the vessels, like the pumps and the Jacob's ladder for taking people out of the water and tow ropes. We know what we want, but we cannot get the funds to get it.

In my district, if we need ten pumps, we might get one or two, and it might be ten years' time before we get another one, if we ever get one. By the time it comes around for the next lot to get the pumps, the first lot is warning us.

Senator Christmas: Mr. Chair, I find that incredible. Here in this kind of environment, we have an auxiliary that's obviously committed and dedicated. You have a large group of people, a large number of vessels, and they're not properly equipped to carry out the work that they're volunteering to do. I just find that incredible.

Mr. O'Brien: We are very committed. I've been involved in this for 34 years and I love the auxiliary, but the auxiliary members are not being appreciated to the point where they are given the tools required to do the work that they need to do.

Senator Christmas: Thank you, Mr. O'Brien.

Senator Hubley: You mentioned a Jacob's ladder. We had mentioned ropes and other things. Give us a few more things that should be on every auxiliary boat in order to make a successful rescue. You know what's entailed.

Mr. O'Brien: Can I have that sent to you?

Senator Hubley: We'd like to know.

Mr. O'Brien: I will send you a detailed list of what we require, rather than just give you an ad hoc list.

Senator Hubley: That's perfect.

Mr. O'Brien: I will get a detailed list sent to you because there are a lot of things we really need.

Senator Hubley: Thank you.

The Chair: We appreciate your time, Mr. O'Brien.

Just for the record, in 2016, Mr. O'Brien was inducted into the Atlantic Canada Marine Industries Hall of Fame.

Hon. Senators: Here, here!

The Chair: So somebody is recognizing your efforts.

We are pleased now to have with us Ryan Cleary and Jason Sullivan from the Federation of Independent Sea Harvesters of Newfoundland and Labrador. Knowing Ryan for a long time, I have to say — well, I'm not going to put words in his mouth. I'll let him take care of that for himself.

Please introduce yourselves. I understand you have some opening remarks and then we'll get to some questions from senators. The floor is yours.

Ryan Cleary, President, Federation of Independent Sea Harvesters of Newfoundland and Labrador: Thank you, Senator Manning.

I want to thank the Senate Fisheries and Oceans Committee for tackling the issue of maritime search and rescue, including challenges and opportunities. In particular, I want to thank the committee chair, Senator Fabien Manning. There's no doubt of the honourable senator's passion for Newfoundland and Labrador and the sea or his sense of humour.

I served more than four years in the House of Commons, with most of that time spent on the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, and took every opportunity to hold the Stephen Harper government to account on the floor of the Commons for its fisheries policy, including weaknesses with search and rescue. But then at one point, Senator Manning went through the trouble to point out to our local media that I had as much influence on fishery policy in Ottawa as he had "with foreign policy in the White House — absolutely none.''

Senator Manning, upon reflection, I think that you were right about my sphere of influence as an opposition MP from Newfoundland and Labrador. We can only hope that this Conservative-controlled committee has more influence on fishery policy in Justin Trudeau's Liberal administration than I have with Donald Trump's choice of hair products.

As President of FISH NL — that's the Federation of Independent Sea Harvesters of Newfoundland and Labrador; it's a new union attempting to represent the province's inshore fish harvesters — I want to first acknowledge and thank the search and rescue personnel of 9 Wing Gander. It was only this past Sunday that five sealers aboard the fishing boat Northern Provider were plucked from the sea by search and rescue technicians aboard one of the military's Cormorant helicopters. The vicious seas were compared to the movie "Perfect Storm.'' Those are pretty much normal working conditions for our search and rescue technicians. The Cormorant crew was described by one of the sealers as the best of the best, and they are.

There is no question of the bravery or professionalism of the search and rescue personnel. It was only last year that a Cormorant helicopter from 103 Search and Rescue Squadron in Gander reached a milestone in its service history. The helicopter conducted its four-thousandth successful mission for the 103 Squadron since 1977. Let there be no mistake: The relationship between military search and rescue and our mariners is a deep one. But there are issues.

Our first issue with search and rescue is the response times of the Cormorant helicopters. Canada lags behind international search and rescue norms, and that's an indisputable fact. The international search and rescue readiness standard is 30 minutes at all times of the day from tasking a Cormorant to becoming airborne; 30 minutes wheels up, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year — a search and rescue response time of 30 minutes around the clock.

Now that's not the way it works here in Newfoundland and Labrador or across Canada, where the wheels-up response time for the Cormorants are twofold. Between Monday and Friday, 8 a.m. to 4 p.m., the wheels-up response time is 30 minutes. After 4 p.m. and on weekends and during holidays, the wheels-up response time is up to two hours. Now can you imagine fire departments around the country, including one just down the road, operating with one response time during the day and another during evenings and on weekends? Canadians wouldn't have it because it would make no sense because lives would be at risk.

A two-tier response time wouldn't cut it in terms of a fire on land, and a two-tier response time doesn't cut it in the North Atlantic, where survival time, in the absence of a survival suit, is measured in minutes.

Let there be no doubt that the Canadian military's two-tier search and rescue response time, the inadequate search and rescue response time, has cost lives. It has cost the lives of Newfoundland and Labrador mariners and will cost more lives if the search and rescue response time isn't changed.

The Melina and Keith II, a fishing boat, sank off Cape Bonavista on September 12, 2005, while fishing turbot and shrimp. It took a Gander-based Cormorant approximately three hours and eight minutes after the capsized vessel was located to arrive on scene. In that three hours and eight minutes, four of the eight fishermen who were reportedly alive when the fishing boat when down died.

According to a "Fifth Estate'' investigation in 2012, Newfoundland and Labrador is ground zero for search and rescue in Atlantic Canada. In fact, according to the "Fifth Estate,'' between 2004 and 2012, there were nine cases where people died waiting for search and rescue. How many lives will it take for the Government of Canada to accept the fact that the search and rescue response, as it stands, is not good enough?

A few years ago, Cougar Helicopters, which services the oil industry off Newfoundland and Labrador, implemented a wheels-up search and rescue response time of 20 minutes around the clock. When it comes to survival times in the North Atlantic, there's no difference between a fisherman and an offshore oil worker. The survival time is the same. Why, then, the two-tier response?

More than that, most emergencies — more than 80 percent — require search and rescue response outside the 30- minute response time, outside 8 a.m. to 4 p.m., Monday to Friday. I might add, the Canadian Coast Guard has a 24- hour response time of 30 minutes around the clock.

Our second issue with search and rescue is the coverage off Labrador. There is no search and rescue Cormorant stationed in Labrador.

The fishing vessel Atlantic Charger sank off northern Labrador on September 22, 2015. All nine crew men were rescued by a factory-freezer trawler after spending 11 hours in immersion suits and a life raft. Now the owner of the boat, Brad Watkins, who I spoke with just this week about this appearance before the Senate committee, said fishermen know that they're on their own off Labrador. To quote Mr. Watkins, "There is no quick response. There is no quick help. If something happens, we're done and that should never be.''

Finally, I cannot mention search and rescue in Labrador without bringing up 14-year-old Burton Winters of Makkovik who died on the ice near his community in the winter of 2012. Search and rescue was asked to send a Cormorant out of Gander, but the request was denied. By the time search and rescue sent a helicopter to help find the boy, he'd been missing for nearly 52 hours and walked 19 kilometres through a storm, and he laid down on the ice and died. That's how he was found.

To conclude, we are seafaring people, and while our search and rescue personnel are in fact the best of the best, the service is simply not.

Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Cleary.

As I said in my preamble, I didn't have to put any words in his mouth. He can speak for himself.

Senator Hubley.

Senator Hubley: Thank you very much for your presentation. I have to say that you've certainly said a lot and you've probably said it all.

There are serious gaps; there's no question about that. One that we've seen on our visit to Newfoundland Labrador is in Labrador.

Response time is critical. I think you said that we've got the trained personnel and people willing to do the work, so what are we lacking? What is happening here?

Mr. Cleary: We're lacking a helicopter in Labrador. We're lacking a full-time Cormorant stationed in Labrador.

I mentioned Brad Watkins, a fisherman who lost a boat off Labrador in 2015. The fishermen, the mariners who fish off Labrador, they know the risks. They know that to get a Cormorant off Labrador, it has to refuel. In this case, even after the Cormorant had refuelled on its way to Labrador, it didn't have time with the fuel on board to launch a rescue. So our mariners know that there's a problem. They know that without a full-time search and rescue helicopter based in Labrador, there is a hell of a lot of time to wait, and a lot of times it's just useless. It won't get there quick enough. But they fish anyway.

Senator Hubley: You did mention the Cougar firm in your presentation. Have you considered whether search and rescue should be privatized or if it should be continued in the same mode it's going, with, we hope, some updates?

Mr. Cleary: I don't have any problem whatsoever with the military running our Cormorant search and rescue helicopters. As I said in the opening, the service, the personnel and the training are second to none. We just need a full- time station in Labrador and we need a change to the response times.

Senator Hubley: Thank you.

Senator Doyle: In reading our notes, there seems to be a lack of communication, maybe cooperation, between the Transportation Safety Board and the marine centres in Newfoundland when it comes to reporting marine accidents. Are delays in reporting being experienced? Are you getting any word directly from fishermen and oceangoing people that there's a delay in reporting from the Transportation Safety Board to the marine centres? Is there anything on that?

Jason Sullivan, Captain, Federation of Independent Sea Harvesters of Newfoundland and Labrador: We had a bad accident this year where four men were lost off St. John's in an open boat. They were out fishing cod. I think the last time the Transportation Safety Board reviewed a fishing accident was in Placentia Bay, and they ruled that one of the major causes with that was because of DFO policy and that's why they were lost.

I guess maybe because it puts the government in a bad light or DFO, or something, this most recent accident hasn't been reviewed. I'll be the first one to tell you that those four men would be alive today only for DFO policy.

Senator Doyle: If it wasn't for what?

Mr. Sullivan: DFO policy.

Senator Doyle: DFO policy?

Mr. Sullivan: They were allowed to buddy up at their crab fishery on a larger boat, and when they started at the cod, they weren't allowed to do that anymore. They had to go out in an open boat. I mean, every fisherman in Newfoundland isn't a millionaire. You can't afford to just go out and buy the biggest boats, especially in this market now with our quotas declining.

More emphasis has to be put on people working together and safety and trying to curb the accidents that do happen so you don't need search and rescue quite as much. It has got to be there.

But we have to focus on why these accidents are happening a lot more than just about helicopters. Obviously that's important, but we got to get to the root of the cause.

Senator Doyle: We've been talking about 5 Wing Goose Bay, and you've been talking about having a Cormorant stationed in Labrador. Obviously that's where the two could come together. You could have a Cormorant stationed at 5 Wing Goose Bay on a permanent basis, I guess is what you're talking about, having some kind of a SAR centre at 5 Wing.

Mr. Cleary: In preparation for my appearance before the Senate committee, I spoke with our harvesters from Newfoundland who fish off Labrador. As I said, one harvester who lost a boat in 2015, nine men were in the water for eleven hours before they were rescued by a vessel, not a Cormorant.

But yes, our fishermen, our harvesters who fish off Labrador, say that if they're in the water and they need immediate help, there is none.

Senator Doyle: Put on your union hat for a minute. In reading some of the notes again, there seems to be a concern that the Coast Guard is not properly placed when it comes to the whole governance area. The Union of Canadian Transportation Employees now represents bits and pieces of the Coast Guard. They don't represent all of it. They're saying that it shouldn't be attached to the Department of Fisheries in any way and that it might be a whole lot better to have it operating out of Transport Canada. Do you have any views on how that could possibly help operations within the Coast Guard? Does it matter at all? Could it be more efficient if it wasn't connected with the — and how is it connected with the Department of Fisheries? I'm not even aware of that, not being a member of the committee. I've been reading that they're saying it might be more efficient if it was within the Transport Department.

Mr. Cleary: I don't know about the bureaucracy in one department to the next in terms of Fisheries and Oceans and Transport. As an MP in the House of Commons, I fought tooth and nail for that 24-hour, 30-minute wheels-up response time.

From my perspective, the issue is not with the bureaucracy. I don't know the difference from one department to the next, to be honest. Our issue is with fundamental policy, 30-minute wheels-up response time, and having two responses: one during the day, and one on the evenings, weekends and vacations.

Again, I bring up the analogy of a fire department. If your home catches on fire during the day, you've got an immediate response. But in the evening, at night, when you're in bed and your family's asleep, that response is up to two hours. You know yourself how you'd react, so mariners react the same way.

Senator Doyle: That recommendation, would it apply to all marine traffic or fishermen as well? That 15- to 20- minute response seems to be only there for offshore oil workers. That came about as a result of the commission.

Mr. Cleary: Right, as a result of the commission. They instituted a 20-minute wheels-up response time with the privately owned Cougar company, which is fantastic.

Senator Doyle: Yes.

Mr. Cleary: But as I said, in terms of survival time in the water, it's the same for a fisherman or an oil industry worker. The oil industry recognizes 20 minutes, and for the military and the Cormorants, for everybody else, it's 30 minutes. Why is there a difference? There shouldn't be.

Senator Doyle: Yes, it's a big difference. Thanks.

The Chair: If I could interject for a moment, you were here when the vice-president of the auxiliary, Mr. O'Brien, made his presentation. In his remarks, he noted the fact of 337 fishing and pleasure vessels, but 95 percent of the membership of the Coast Guard Auxiliary here is involved in the commercial fishing industry. So you're talking about nine and a half of every ten people.

When we visited the south side on Monday and talked to some fishermen, a concern was raised about the lack of equipment on their boats. Senator Hubley asked for a list of what they don't have on their boats and other concerns they have with the monetary side of things. Have you heard from people involved in the industry that you talk to in relation to the issue of the auxiliary not having access to office space in the new building under construction on the south side?

From the people we talked to the other day, they really don't know where they're going. They only have two staff and are trying to coordinate all their activities. I'm wondering if you've heard from fisher people — well, the auxiliary people — about that concern.

Mr. Cleary: To be honest, Senator Manning, I hadn't heard that before I heard it from an earlier presenter, but I think that you bring up an excellent point. The fact that the auxiliary responds to 40 percent of incidents off our coast and we have a new building being constructed and the space is not there, that makes absolutely no sense. I was pleased to hear you say that this is something you're going to follow up on even before the committee submits its report, so kudos to you and the committee for doing that, sir.

The Chair: Thank you.

Senator McInnis?

Senator McInnis: It is nice to see you, Mr. Cleary. You conveyed your message very well.

I want to pick up on what Senator Doyle had to say. The Coast Guard is currently a division of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, and what is being suggested is that it be a separate agency. We've been told by some that it's not getting the recognition. Now, testimony to that is the Transportation Safety Board in 1993 made numerous recommendations with respect to changes regarding more stringent safety requirements aboard fishing vessels and a number of other recommendations. It is only in 2015, 24 years later, that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans has regulations in the Gazette for comment. That gives you an example of the import that the Coast Guard is getting.

When questioned about this, Department of Fisheries and Oceans officials say, "Well, it's very difficult to communicate with the fishers.'' I said, "Well, they have organizations, associations. You must have been able to communicate in some way.'' But that was the challenge they had. I want to go on to something else and then you can comment on both because I know we're stretched for time.

I think you might agree that search and rescue over the years has evolved. It's never been a prime line in anyone's budget in Ottawa. It's now evolving. We talk now about Goose Bay and the role that they're playing, Gander and many other fixed-wing operations and helicopters. I think what's happened here is they're stagnant. They need a push. They need more attention. When you look at the upwards of 600 incidents in this province and the 18 fatalities, that should bring some attention.

What I worry about, and another senator alluded to this earlier today, is that what if a cruise ship goes down? What if a passenger airplane goes down off your coast? Then what happens? Are we ready for that?

I think it has evolved now to a point that it needs more import. It's an important sector and we have to pay more attention to it because lives are being lost on a regular basis.

Could you comment on those two areas?

Mr. Cleary: When you used the word "stagnant'', I think that's a good word to use in particular for the Canadian Coast Guard fleet. We have an aging fleet. That's a fact. We've had reports, for example — I represent or we're going through a process where the Federation of Independent Sea Harvesters of Newfoundland and Labrador is trying to represent the inshore harvesters and break them away from their existing union. But we've got Coast Guard vessels that are aging, that are 50-plus years old. We have Coast Guard vessels that are responsible for doing offshore surveys of fish stocks, and the fish stocks off the east coast of Newfoundland are still in trouble, stock after stock. But in so many cases, these surveys aren't being carried out because the Coast Guard vessels are broken down and can't carry them out. We've had other stories in recent years where Coast Guard vessels can't leave port because there's not enough fuel to go to sea. I'm not making this up. I'm not exaggerating in any way. These are legit. These are stories that appeared in the media.

So when you stand in St. John's harbour and you look over at the south side and you see our Coast Guard fleet, you have an aging fleet. You have a fleet that can't carry out offshore surveys and our fish stocks are in trouble. And not enough fuel.

I think that you break the Canadian Coast Guard away from Fisheries and Oceans; I don't think that matters. I think at the end of the day we have to see a better response time and we've got to see Coast Guard vessels that are able to do the job that they're supposed to do.

Do you have anything to add to that?

Mr. Sullivan: The only thing I'd say about DFO and the Coast Guard being affiliated with one another — and I can elaborate on this later when I get a chance to speak — is if you can separate from DFO, they should do it, because in my experience, anything DFO has ever touched in this province has turned into a disaster.

I know a bit about what you're saying about the regulations getting changed. They were advertised in the Gazette, I think, on July 13, 2016, and they're coming into effect July 13, 2018. Part of that is vessel length. DFO and the Coast Guard actually measure or Transport Canada measures vessel length differently, and so Transport Canada now has decided to change theirs to coincide with what DFO has done it.

But we found out recently here in Newfoundland — and only in Newfoundland, because apparently we're some sort of second-class citizen — that our vessels are going to be measured differently than the rest of the Maritimes. So Transport Canada made the attempt to coincide with vessel length and now DFO is going ahead and changing it back on us. By doing that, they're forcing us to go to smaller boats because their length now is going to be from the extremities of the hull, which is going to include any extensions or stuff that people had put on in order to have some more deck space for safe working conditions. So we're actually taking a major step back while the rest of the Maritimes are being allowed to continue on like they have been.

Hats off to the people representing those people up there because it seems like they're moving forward. I mean it's 2017. We shouldn't be going backwards.

I don't know what the plan is here. When we talk about vessel safety and search and rescue and everything else, you have to take into consideration why people are getting in accidents and all these things that are occurring. It's because they're being put in dangerous situations.

Like I said, if you can split the Coast Guard from DFO, do it.

You can't get answers at DFO as to where all these recommendations are coming from, except for senior management. I've asked where these senior management people are. Well, they say, "They're upstairs here in the White Hills,'' and I don't know if that's where people go when their brain cells die or what. But how do you, in this day and age, try to make people move backwards when our fishery is governed by individual quotas? We're not allowed to bring anymore than — if I had a 1,000 footer or a 100 footer, it doesn't matter; I can catch the same amount of product. So it's only about safety and why are we moving backwards?

I know the PR guy is here from DFO, and I hope to God that he puts something in it because we don't know where these rules are coming from and who's making them. And it's specifically to Newfoundland. Why aren't the Maritimes — they're moving forward. They're evolving. We're going backwards. I mean, I don't know what's going on here.

Like I said, DFO is a mess, and if you can get the Coast Guard out of it, by all means do it.

Senator McInnis: What has been suggested is that it be an agency similar to the Revenue Canada Agency, that there be a separate board of directors within.

Mr. Sullivan: Yes, definitely, because like I said, if there's anyone that has influence on the Coast Guard now that's involved with DFO, that's probably part of the reason why search and rescue is a mess, too.

Senator McInnis: Thank you.

Senator Christmas: Mr. Cleary and Captain Sullivan, I appreciate your presentation about the two-tier response times, and I certainly think that's something that needs to be focused on and addressed.

Over the past couple of days I've been jotting notes down about what people have been saying about response times. When we visited 9 Wing, they mentioned the weekday response. Their policy, you're perfectly correct, is 30 minutes. Over the past three years, they've tracked their response times, meaning wheels-up between 18 to 21 minutes. So the actual response time is a little better than the targeted response time.

On weekends and holidays, their two-hour policy, 9 Wing told us that their actual response time over the past three years was between 50 and 59 minutes. But still, I take your point that there's a two-tiered system.

When we went to Cougar, they said that their targeted response time was 20 minutes. Their average during the days is 13 minutes. Now, I had written down in my notes that their nighttime targeted response was 45 minutes, but I didn't get any actuals.

Of course, the question that begs itself is why does 9 Wing have a two-tiered system? As best as I can tell, it's all about resources. It's all about personnel. It's all about staffing. They just don't have the resources to put a crew on standby during the weekends and holidays. So obviously they have to bring these crews in, and before wheels-up, of course, it's more time.

This is all new to me, but my thinking is that search and rescue within the Canadian Forces just does not have the resources. They're too stretched. Somebody had defined them within the committee here as being "one'' deep. We saw that firsthand yesterday because of the rescue that happened off St. Anthony. They had to backfill crews and cancel people's vacations to be able to fill a standby crew.

I perfectly agree with you, Mr. Cleary, that the dedication and the service of these SAR crews are outstanding, but the impression I'm getting is that there are just too few of them. There doesn't seem to be enough resources within the Canadian Forces dedicated to SAR, and I find that very troubling.

Those are my first impressions, Mr. Cleary. You've also served on a fisheries committee. Do you share that same observation: SAR in Newfoundland and Labrador just doesn't get the resources it needs.

Mr. Cleary: That's a very good question. For someone who's just delving into this, I think you have a pretty good grasp of it.

We had a tragedy here a number of years ago with another fishing vessel called Ryan's Commander. The sister of two men who were lost aboard that boat, Johanna Ryan Guy, is going to appear before this committee this afternoon. She wrote a book about the Ryan's Commander disaster, and in that book she quoted former Member of Parliament Peter MacKay. He said that for Canada to move to an around-the-clock 30-minutes wheels-up response time was in the order of over a billion dollars.

So the answer to your question is that does it come down to money? You're absolutely right; it comes down to money. But from our perspective, the perspective of harvesters and of a union representing harvesters, what's the cost of a life?

Senator Christmas: Another concern for 9 Wing Gander was to respond to a situation in the southern part of Baffin Island in 12 hours. I find it very troubling in a country with the resources that we have that we have such disturbing response times.

The Chair: You may want to finish up with closing comments and our senators may have another question or two. Certainly the feedback we have received is great, and putting a bit of meat on the bones is positive.

Mr. Sullivan: I'll just add that I don't know how many fishermen you're going to have before you today, but I am one. I've answered the phone. My father's boat sank in 2009 and I lost a couple of friends. It was only 50 miles from St. John's where she sank, and it took an hour and 42 minutes for the — I'm not usually emotional — for the helicopter to get there.

Like Ryan said, it all comes down to money and how much stuff costs. But until you go and talk to someone's little children after their dad died, money don't matter no more. So, I'll have to leave that for now.

I'm from Bay Bulls, and Cougar actually has a charter to do practice. I think it's around three days a week. They come and lower someone onto a boat and they practise and everything else. It's beyond me why they can't semi- privatize something. I mean, the resources were here in St. John's. There's a helicopter here. They're training three times a week. I mean, it shouldn't cost a big investment. It's costing money every time the helicopter leaves Gander, so why can't you just pay Cougar to do it sometimes when they're closer? That's just common sense. I mean, they're there 24-7. Why can't we avail of it?

I was out the night Ryan's Commander sank and I was out the night the Melina and Keith II sank. It's hard stuff.

I think the biggest issue a lot of times is we have to get to the root of the problem on why there are so many accidents and try to figure it out. Like I said, from some of the Transportation Safety Board studies I've reviewed, a lot of it is to do with DFO policy.

When we started this union way back when, a girl by the name of Melissa Loveman reached out to me. Her dad was lost in Placentia Bay. To make a long story short, what happened was they were out fishing. The guy's wife had a nice longliner tied on to the wharf, and they weren't allowed to use it because of DFO policy. So they had to go out in a little open boat, and the wind came up that day and they all got lost. And that study recommended that it was part of the DFO policy why they were lost. But guess what changed since then? Nothing.

This is why I'm so angry about now this new bright idea coming from DFO here in Newfoundland that we're going to have to get smaller boats. I mean, what sense does that make, this day and age, when that doesn't affect the resource? It just affects our safety.

I don't know who you talk to or who you do what with. I'm after calling our MPs, calling everyone, and it's a funny thing: No one ever can do nothing. I mean, before it was the excuse that we were always in opposition here and we can't get in contact with the minister. But now we have seven members here and you still can't get nothing done. And this is the kind of stuff that's happening to people right here in Newfoundland.

What makes me most angry about it is that it's just in Newfoundland. The rest of the Maritimes, they can use their nice boats. And more power to them. They should be. It's all about safety. We have the same right. When I go out fishing in the morning, my kids should have the same comfort as the people in Nova Scotia or P.E.I. that their dad can come home in the evening.

Anyway, I wasn't planning on getting emotional and I'm after losing my train of thought, but I think I'll leave it there.

The Chair: We appreciate the frankness. Certainly, the size of vessels, as Ryan is fully aware, is a concern that we all have had for many years, especially with that quota system. It defies logic.

Mr. Sullivan: Irrelevant, yes.

The Chair: But then a lot of things defy logic.

I want to thank you for your presentation here this morning. As I've said to others who have presented to us, as you're driving home or back to your office, back to your boat, if you wish you had added something, feel free to contact the committee. We have a very intensive study on the go here. We're looking at places throughout Canada, but we're also looking at places around the world. If the other countries are doing something a little bit better, a little bit different, that we can improve on, we're not going to be shy to make that part of our recommendations if we think it would be, in the end result, a way to save more lives. Search and rescue is certainly a very important part of the day-to- day lives of people that make a living from the water.

Mr. Cleary, I'm going to give you an opportunity for some closing remarks.

Mr. Cleary: Thank you, Senator Manning. Again, I want to thank the Senate committee for travelling to Newfoundland and Labrador to take on this issue. I know how passionate both you and Senator Doyle are as Newfoundlanders and Labradoreans about the safety of our mariners.

To sum up, you have search and rescue response time and you have an issue with no Cormorant based in Labrador. But more than that, nobody can put it better than Jason put it in terms of when we have vessels heading out on the water, the first way to make sure that our harvesters are as safe as they can be is to make sure that our regulations in terms of vessel size are appropriate and are standard across the board, not just for the Maritimes, but for Newfoundland and Labrador.

Do you want to wrap it up as well?

Mr. Sullivan: We're not looking to be treated special. We just want to be treated the same as everyone else. Why are we taking a step backwards? That's what I'd like to know because sometimes it's just like they don't care about us.

Unfortunately, search and rescue is all about the money because it's so expensive. But there are lots of lighthouses around Newfoundland and I don't know how many millions of dollars are spent on them every year. With today's technology, it's nice to have them, but I'd sooner have a helicopter on standby. I guess it's all about allocating money here and there, but I guess sometimes we might have to start prioritizing to evolve with the times as well.

The Chair: Thank you, Jason and Ryan.

(The committee adjourned.)