Proceedings of the Standing Committee on
Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament
Issue 1 - Evidence - December 11, 2015
OTTAWA, Friday, December 11, 2015
The Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures, and the Rights of Parliament met this day at 2:13 p.m. to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Till Heyde, Acting Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, it is my duty to preside over the election of the Chair of the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament. I can receive a motion for the position of chair.
Senator White: I would like to put a motion forward to nominate Senator Fraser as chair of the committee.
Senator Cools: I would like to second it.
Mr. Heyde: It is moved by Senator White that the Honourable Senator Fraser do take the chair of this committee. Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Mr. Heyde: I invite Senator Fraser to take the chair.
Senator Joan Fraser (Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: Thank you all very much. In particular, thank you to Senator White not only for nominating me, which I greatly appreciate, but for all of the work that he did as chair of this committee. We have wonderful foundations upon which to build thanks in large measure to him and members of the committee in the last Parliament.
That said, I would move now to Item No. 2 of our agenda, the election of a deputy chair, and I recognize Senator Cools.
Senator Cools: I would like to nominate Senator White.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Cools that the Honourable Senator White be deputy chair of this committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Congratulations, Senator White.
Senator White: Thank you very much.
The Chair: Item No. 3, Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. You all have the text, I believe. Would somebody care to move the motion?
Senator Seidman: I'll move it.
The Chair: It is moved by Senator Seidman:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the chair, the deputy chair, and one other member of the committee, to be designated after the usual consultations; and
That the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses, and to schedule hearings.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed.
Item No. 4: Would somebody care to move the motion about publishing the committee's proceedings?
Senator Martin: So moved.
The Chair: It moved by the Honourable Senator Martin:
That the committee publish its proceedings.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed.
Would someone wish to move Motion No. 5?
Senator White: So moved.
The Chair: It is moved by the Honourable Senator White:
That, pursuant to rule 12-17, the chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the publication of evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a member of the committee from both the opposition and the Senate Liberals be present.
Is it agreed?
Senator White: Senator, it didn't make sense to me the way it was written. Sorry. I thought it would say "government and opposition." For some reason it threw me off when I read "Senate Liberals." Thank you.
The Chair: No. You are now members of Her Majesty's opposition.
Senator White: That's clear.
Senator Wells: Excuse me. I have a point of clarification on Item No. 3, the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. Would there have to be a motion to create a subcommittee, and is that a subcommittee of this committee?
The Chair: Yes. That is the steering committee. The Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure is the steering committee, and this is basically the standard motion to establish it.
Senator Wells: Thank you.
Senator Cools: I don't think we should call it that. We should call it the steering committee.
The Chair: I think it is somewhere in the rules that it has to be the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, but it is commonly known as steering.
Senator Cools: We used to call it steering.
The Chair: No. 5, authorization to hold meetings and to receive evidence when quorum is not present. Would someone care to move that motion?
Senator Cools: I moved:
That, pursuant to rule 12-17, the chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the publication of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a member of the committee from both the opposition and the Senate Liberals be present.
The Chair: Is it agreed, colleagues?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
No. 6, research staff: Can I have a motion on the research staff?
Senator Seidman: So moved.
The Chair: Do you want to read the motion?
Senator Seidman: I move:
That the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign analysts to the committee;
That the chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of such counsel and technical, clerical and other personnel as may be necessary for the purpose of the committee's examination and consideration of such bills, subject matters of bills, and estimates as are referred to it;
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee; and
That the chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries and draft reports.
The Chair: Having heard the motion, are we in agreement, colleagues?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: No opposition? Carried.
I would draw to your attention that we have with us Dara Lithwick, who was and is our research analyst from the Library of Parliament.
Welcome.
Dara Lithwick, Analyst, Library of Parliament: Thank you. It is nice to be here.
The Chair: Motion 7: authority to commit funds and certify accounts.
Senator Wells: I move:
That, pursuant to section 7, chapter 3:06 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair, and the clerk of the committee;
That, pursuant to section 8, chapter 3:06 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair, and the clerk of the committee; and
That, notwithstanding the foregoing, in cases related to consultants and personnel services, the authority to commit funds and certify accounts be conferred jointly on the chair and deputy chair.
The Chair: You have heard the motion. All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: I see no opposition. Carried.
Motion 8, travel: Can I have someone to move this motion, please?
Senator Martin: I move:
That the committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
The Chair: You have heard the motion from Senator Martin.
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
Motion 9: May I have a mover for that motion, please?
Senator White: I move:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to:
(1) determine whether any member of the committee is on "official business" or the purpose of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy, published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998; and
(2) consider any member of the committee to be on "official business" if that member is: (a) attending an event or meeting related to the work of the committee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the committee; and
That the subcommittee report at the earliest opportunity any decisions taken with respect to the designation of members of the committee travelling on committee business.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator White.
All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: I see into opposition. Carried.
May I have a mover for Motion No. 10, please?
Senator Seidman: I move:
That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witness expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application, but that the chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Seidman.
All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Seeing no opposition, carried.
Motion 11: broadcasting.
Senator Wells: I move:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow coverage by electronic media of the committee's public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings at its discretion.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Wells.
All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Seeing no opposition, carried.
The time slot for regular meetings remains as it was: Tuesdays at 9:30 a.m. and Wednesdays at 6:45 p.m. Both slots are scheduled for this room.
As you know, this committee has in the past only infrequently used the Wednesday evening slot, and certainly if you agree, colleagues, and if the steering committee agrees, I would think it appropriate to make our main focus the Tuesday morning meeting.
Senator Cools: Absolutely.
The Chair: Depending on the workload, however, stand advised that we do have the right to sit on Wednesday evening, and we may have to do so on occasion.
Senator White: Agreed.
The Chair: Does anyone wish to raise other business before we talk a bit about where we will be going? Okay.
We don't have any orders of reference yet. This committee did not quite conclude its work on privilege — at least the Senate didn't do that — so we do not, as I understand matters, need an order of reference to do that work. We can just "re-conclude" it.
I will ask the staff to make sure that we are all provided with the necessary documentation.
Senator Cools: Did Senator Hervieux-Payette move a motion today?
The Chair: Nobody moved a motion on that today.
Senator Cools: I thought she was going to do that today.
The Chair: No. That was the report on privilege.
Senator Cools: Yes. That is a different thing.
The Chair: Pending in the chamber are two Speaker's rulings on questions of privilege. One from Senator Hervieux- Payette in reference to leaks of the Auditor General's report is a repetition of a reference that was made to this committee in the previous session and on which considerable work was done.
I can't read the Speaker's mind, but it is worth noting that the previous Speaker did agree that that was a question of privilege, and it was referred to this committee. So it wouldn't be astonishing if it were referred to us again.
There, also, I would ask the staff to pull together basically a briefing book for colleagues so that if we get the same reference again, we will be well prepared to begin our work right away.
Senator Cools: Maybe in our examination of processes and procedures we could examine the instance of a case such as Senator Hervieux-Payette's where a finding was made and, according to the principle of res judicata, the issue was decided. We should look at that as a process in terms of a second Speaker being asked to decide again on a case that was already decided by a previous Speaker. I find that a little messy. We should look at that.
The Chair: That is an interesting point. We might ask the staff to prepare documentation for us on that aspect of the question as well as the rest.
Senator Cools: My understanding is that once a Speaker has ruled, it is ruled on. Unfortunately, the committee did not put in an interim report as I had suggested, but that alone would have taken a simple motion. It would have been a lot more simple and straightforward, but I don't see how one can ask one Speaker to rule on the exact same question, the exact same set of facts. Systems don't work like that. Many judges would throw it out.
The Chair: It is an interesting point and something that would be worth bending our attention to.
In this particular case, we are where we are.
Senator Cools: We are where we are, there is no doubt about that, but we should look to the future.
The Chair: The second question of privilege on which we will get a ruling one way or the other from the Speaker is question of privilege raised by Senator Housakos about the absence of a Leader of the Government in the Senate. I would hate to hazard a guess on what the Speaker will say about that, but we should be prepared, if necessary, to consider that too. If the Speaker rules that Senator Housakos has a case of privilege, then presumably it will come to us.
Finally, there is before the Senate now Senator Wallace's motion asking us to look at representation of the independent senators on committees. I think there is unanimous agreement that this is a really important topic.
I would suggest that since we have adopted Senator Cowan's motion about how to make the committee more effective and we have not yet adopted Senator Wallace's motion, that we should, both informally and possibly formally, consult with colleagues once we know who will be on the special committee, because there is not a whole lot of point in duplicating work. Bear that in mind as we go forward.
Senator Cools: I have one other question. When we return on January 26, I think it is a Tuesday. Will we schedule our first meeting then or will we give people a few days to get used to being back?
The Chair: We could schedule our first meeting for then, depending on the steering committee, which gets to have a significant impact on these things. I think we could consider using that meeting as an update on where we are and what we have done, the work that the committee has already done, rather than plunge pell-mell into further —
Senator Cools: That would be good, just have a nice discussion between us. Yes, that would be nice. This is a huge issue, as you know.
The Chair: The rules are huge and endlessly fascinating.
Senator Cools: This used to be called the Privileges Committee years ago, before they got into rights.
The Chair: Well "privilege" was not a word that the media enjoyed.
I want to thank everyone and wish everybody a very Merry Christmas, happy holidays and a happy new year, as the case may be, depending on what you to celebrate, or everything.
Senator Cools: Some even celebrate everything.
The Chair: Exactly.
Senator White: As it should be.
(The committee adjourned.)