Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Security and Defence
Issue 1 - Evidence - Meeting of January 25, 2016
OTTAWA, Monday, January 25, 2016
The Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 5:05 p.m., pursuant to rule 12-13 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Kevin Pittman, Acting Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, as acting clerk of your committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair.
[Translation]
I am ready to receive a motion to that effect.
[English]
Are there any nominations?
Senator Mitchell: I nominate Senator Lang to be the chair of the committee.
Mr. Pittman: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Mitchell that the Honourable Senator Lang do take the chair of this committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
[Translation]
Mr. Pittman: I declare the motion carried.
[English]
I invite the Honourable Senator Lang to take the chair.
Senator Daniel Lang (Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: First of all, thank you very much for the nomination. I want to say that I very much appreciate the support that has been presented here today. I also want to confirm on the record that all of the procedures that are going to be carried on today have been discussed with Senator Day's office to ensure that we have the consensus of the members of the committee here.
This is an organizational meeting. Before you, you will see you have a package with a series of motions that are strictly procedural that every committee goes through for the purposes of ensuring that we run our meetings according to the Rules of the Senate.
Second, in conjunction with the organizational meeting report that you have for the purpose of the series of motions, I should point out that there is also going to be a request for us to approve a financial statement that incorporates what's taken place over the last number of years, which is the normal course of events.
Just so you're aware, I should also point out that this meeting is not in camera. However, we are not being televised.
Once we've completed the procedural motions that are necessary to be considered and passed by the committee, we will be going into a discussion of the orders of reference we had actually agreed to and worked with over the course of the last Parliament. These, if approved, will be consistent with what we've done in the past. They have been discussed in conjunction with Senator Day's office as well, who, if it is approved, will be the deputy chair of our committee.
Also, we will be setting up the terms of reference for the purposes of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs to be able to begin to put everything into place for the procedural purposes of that committee as well.
Does anybody have any questions of the chair before we proceed? This is what the present agenda entails.
That being said, we'll move on to the next order of business. The organizational meeting agenda outlines our membership. The first motion is the election of the deputy chair. I would ask Senator White if he has a nomination.
Senator White: I move that the Honourable Senator Day take the position of deputy chair.
The Chair: It has been moved by Senator White. All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed.
The next issue at hand is to establish the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. I move:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the chair, the deputy chair, and one other member of the committee, to be designated after the usual consultation; and
That the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses and to schedule hearings.
I would like to speak to that motion if I could. If you notice, it does not name the third member of the committee. The intention is that Senator Dagenais will be the third member, but I have been advised by the clerk that it is better to not name the third member of the committee just in case he or she cannot attend and a replacement is required for that particular position to ensure that a steering committee meeting can be held. That's probably wise counsel, but the intention is that Senator Dagenais will be the regular member. If, by any chance, he can't attend, then another member can be designated without having to go back to re-establish the committee and the membership of the committee. I wanted to highlight that aspect.
Is everybody in favour of the motion that's been presented?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
Motion No. 4 relates to publishing the committee's proceedings. I'd like to move to Senator White.
Senator White: I move:
That the committee publish its proceedings.
The Chair: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed.
Next is No. 5, "Authorization to hold meetings and to receive evidence when quorum is not present.'' I would call on Senator Ngo.
Senator Ngo: I move the motion of the authorization to hold meetings and to receive evidence when quorum is not present, provided that one member of the committee representing the opposition and one member of the —
The Chair: Could we dispense?
Hon. Senators: Dispense.
The Chair: Is everybody agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: So moved.
Next is the financial report. I'd like to call on Senator Carignan.
[Translation]
Senator Carignan: I move that the committee adopt the draft first report, prepared in accordance with rule 12-26(2).
[English]
The Chair: Is everybody in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed.
Research staff, No. 7, is next. I would call on Senator Beyak.
Senator Beyak: I move:
That the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign analysts to the committee;
That the chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate —
The Chair: Dispense?
Hon. Senators: Dispense.
The Chair: Is everybody in agreement?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: So moved.
I would like to call on the two research analysts from the Library of Parliament who have been assigned to our committee. I'd like to ask Katherine Simonds and Dominique Valiquet to join us at the table. I want to give them a special welcome.
We'll be depending a great deal on your advice. I can speak for all members that we appreciate the work you do. If any members have any questions, I'm sure you'll be happy to help them. Thank you very much for coming to the table.
The next order of business is the authority to commit funds and certify accounts. I would call on Senator White.
Senator White: I move:
That, pursuant to section 7, chapter 3:06 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the chair, deputy chair and the clerk of the committee —
The Chair: Dispense?
Hon. Senators: Dispense.
The Chair: All in agreement?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: So moved.
I'd now like to move on to Item 9, which is travel, and call on Senator Ngo.
Senator Ngo: I move:
That the committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required —
The Chair: Dispense?
Hon. Senators: Dispense.
The Chair: Is everybody in agreement?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: So moved.
Item 10 concerns the designation of members travelling on committee business. I call on Senator Mitchell.
Senator Mitchell: I move:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to:
1) determine whether any member of the committee is on "official business'' —
The Chair: Dispense?
Hon. Senators: Dispense.
The Chair: Is everybody in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: So moved.
Next is No. 11, the travelling and living expenses of witnesses. I call on Senator Beyak.
Senator Beyak: I move:
That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witness expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable —
The Chair: Dispense?
Hon. Senators: Dispense.
The Chair: Is everybody agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: So moved.
I would move to No. 12, which deals with broadcasting. I call on Senator Mitchell.
Senator Mitchell: I move:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow coverage by electronic media of the committee's public proceedings with the least possible —
The Chair: Dispense?
Senator Mitchell: Dispense.
The Chair: Is everybody agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: So moved.
We will now go to Item 13 on our agenda. I move that the time slot for the regular meetings be Mondays from 1 to 5:30.
Is everybody agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed.
We'll move on to the next section of our business, which is the question of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs. There is one motion before you.
Colleagues, I would like to move the following motion:
That a Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs be established to study matters which may be referred to it by the committee;
That the membership of the subcommittee be as follows: the Honourable Senators Day, Lang, White, Mitchell and Dagenais, three of whom shall constitute a quorum;
(a) That pursuant to rule 12-9(2), the committee's authority to send for persons, papers and records, whenever required, and to publish from day to day such papers and evidence —
I'm wondering if somebody wants to move to dispense.
Senator Mitchell: Dispense.
The Chair: Does everybody agree with the motion for the purposes of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Colleagues, I've been advised that for the record we should go through the motion section by section.
Does everybody agree with section (a)?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Does everybody agree with section (b)?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Section (c)?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Section (d)?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Section (e)?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Section (f)?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Section (g)?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Section (h)?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Does everybody agreed with the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: So moved.
Now we'll move on to the next order of business, which is the general order of reference. A series of motions is before you. I'll take the liberty of moving the first motion and then I'll speak to it.
I move:
That the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence be authorized to examine and report on Canada's national security and defence policies, practices, circumstances and capabilities;
That the papers and evidence received and taken and work accomplished by the committee on this subject during the Fortieth Parliament and the Forty-first Parliament be referred to the committee; and
That the committee report to the Senate no later than December 31, 2017, and that the committee retain all powers necessary to publicize its findings until 180 days after the tabling of the final report.
This will give us the general terms of reference for our committee to proceed with the various responsibilities we have, whether it be legislatively from the House of Commons or from the Senate, and to do the necessary legislative studies. Also, it will give us a framework to bring forward recommendations for various reports on areas of study that would then have to be presented to Parliament as well. This also gives us the mandate to proceed with the work that we can do next week, for example. This motion will go before the Senate for the purposes of setting the framework for the committee this week.
The other aspect that I want to point out for the record is that we've included the date of December 31, 2017, for any reports back to the Senate. This, I think, gives us enough time to do the necessary work. I expect we'll have the work done before then, but it gives us a framework and then we don't have to come back to the Senate if we have to change dates.
I would ask members if they're in agreement with the motion that's been presented.
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: So moved.
Senator White, do you want to move the next motion, which has to do with the Canada Border Services Agency?
Senator White: I move:
That the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence be authorized to examine and report on the policies, practices and collaborative efforts of the Canada Border Services Agency in determining admissibility to Canada and removal of inadmissible individuals;
That the papers and evidence received and taken and the work accomplished by the committee on this subject during the Second Session of the Forty-first Parliament be referred to the committee; and
That the committee report to the Senate no later than June 30, 2016, and that it retain all powers necessary to publicize its findings until 180 days after the tabling of the final report.
The Chair: Is there any discussion?
For clarification of the record, senator, I want to point out that this refers to the study we did in the past Parliament. The committee passed it unanimously, but we never debated it in the Senate. This will allow us to bring the report back, table it in the Senate, have a debate on it and then set a period of time for the government to respond to that particular study. I think it's fairly important that we state that.
The question has been called by the senator. Is everybody in favour of the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: So moved.
For the next motion, I'll call on Senator Beyak.
Senator Beyak: I move:
That the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence be authorized to examine and report on:
(a) services and benefits provided to members of the Canadian Forces; to veterans —
The Chair: I'm sorry, senator. We're dealing with the motion concerning the authorization, examination and report on security threats.
Senator Beyak: I'm sorry. Maybe someone else should take it, then. I'm in the wrong place.
The Chair: Senator White, do you want to proceed?
Senator White: I move:
That the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence be authorized to examine and report on security threats facing Canada, including but not limited to:
(a) Cyber espionage;
(b) Threats to critical infrastructure;
(c) Terrorist recruitment and financing;
(d) Terrorist operations and prosecutions;
That the papers and evidence received and taken and the work accomplished by the committee on this subject during the Second Session of the Forty-first Parliament be referred to the committee; and
That the committee report to the Senate no later than December 31, 2017, and that it retain all powers necessary to publicize its findings until 180 days after the tabling of the final report.
The Chair: Any questions? Is everybody agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Mitchell: We didn't do a lot of work on cyberespionage yet. So we're planning to do more work on that?
Senator White: My perspective would be that it would allow us the platform to do so. How much we get to it, I think that's why we have an extended date.
Senator Mitchell: Terrorist recruitment and financing and terrorist operations and prosecution, this would be in furtherance of the —
The Chair: This would be in furtherance of that mandate we received from the Senate. We have the interim report that, as you know, was tabled outside the Senate sitting when we got permission from the Senate to do that.
Secondly, this motion allows us to carry on with the overall study that we had agreed we should do. But if I take the prerogative being the chair, we will have to make some decisions as a committee as to exactly which areas we will examine over the course of the next year in conjunction with all of the legislation that looks to be coming our way in respect to our responsibilities.
Does that answer your question, Senator Mitchell?
Senator Mitchell: Yes. Thank you.
The Chair: Is everybody agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: So moved.
I move the following motion:
That the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence be authorized to examine and report on national security and defence issues in Indo-Asia Pacific Relations and their implications for Canada's national security and defence policies, practices, circumstances and capabilities;
That the papers and evidence received and taken and the work accomplished by the committee on this subject during the Second Session of the Forty-first Parliament be referred to the committee; and
That the committee report to the Senate no later than December 31, 2017, and that it retain all powers necessary to publicize its findings until 180 days after the tabling of the final report.
Once again, colleagues, this is an area of interest that we had actually worked on in the previous Parliament. This motion will allow us to continue our committee work as we move ahead over the course of the next couple of years. It's a very important area, as it affects Canada and the United States. I think Senator White, in view of his past experience over the last six months down in Australia, will bring a certain amount of knowledge to this important issue we face.
Is everybody in agreement?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: So moved. Thank you, colleagues.
The next order of business will be the question of Veterans Affairs, and before us we have two motions. I would ask that the first motion should be the motion setting up the committee. This will be the general order of reference.
Senator Beyak, do you have the right documentation?
Senator Beyak: I sure hope so.
The Chair: I would ask that you move the motion.
Senator Beyak: I move:
That the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence be authorized to examine and report on the medical, social and operational impacts of mental health issues —
The Chair: Senator, I'm sorry. I just want the general reference, and it's the second motion in that package.
Senator Beyak: I'm not on this committee, the veterans part, and I don't have it. I'm sorry.
The Chair: You don't have it.
Sorry, there's some misunderstanding in respect of the paper being disseminated here. Perhaps I'll move the motion. I move:
That the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence be authorized to examine and report on:
(a) services and benefits provided to members of the Canadian Forces; to veterans who have served honourably in Her Majesty's Canadian Armed Forces in the past; to members and former members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and its antecedents; and all of their families;
(b) commemorative activities undertaken by the Department of Veterans Affairs Canada, to keep alive for all Canadians the memory of Canadian veterans' achievements and sacrifices; and
(c) continuing implementation of the New Veterans Charter;
That the papers and evidence received and taken and the work accomplished by the committee on this subject during the Fortieth Parliament and the Forty-first Parliament be referred to the committee; and
That the committee report to the Senate no later than December 31, 2017, and that the committee retain all powers necessary to publicize its findings until 180 days after the tabling of its final report.
This is a general reference for the purpose of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs. Is everybody in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: So moved.
I would also move the following motion for Veterans Affairs. I move:
That the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence be authorized to examine and report on:
(a) the medical, social, and operational impacts of mental health issues affecting serving and retired members of the Canadian Armed Forces, including operational stress injuries —
Shall I dispense?
Hon. Senators: Dispense.
The Chair: Is everybody in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: So moved.
Just for clarification, when these two motions go to the chamber for debate, we will ask that they be referred to the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs for deliberation.
Senator Mitchell: Being a former member of the Veterans Affairs Committee up to prorogation, I understood that the committee was going to look at PTSD in the RCMP as well. I don't know that that's covered in that.
The Chair: It is covered in the motion.
Senator Mitchell: Okay.
The Chair: Yes, for sure it's covered.
Senator Mitchell: Excellent.
Senator White: I don't have it.
Senator Mitchell: I'm not sure that it is.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Mitchell. I think you're right, because the one I was referring to was the first general terms of reference.
Senator Mitchell: It refers to the Canadian Armed Forces. It should refer to the RCMP as well.
The Chair: Could I ask that we refer back to sections (a), (b) and (c) and that the motion be amended to add (d)?
Senator White: That's the one about who manages the RCMP, so that's okay. Just sections (a), (b) and (c), I think.
The Chair: Senator Mitchell, can you move an amendment to amend sections (a), (b) and (c) to add, after "Canadian Armed Forces,'' the words "and members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police''?
Senator Mitchell: I so move in sections (a), (b) and (c).
The Chair: Procedure-wise, I'm advised by the clerk that that will resolve and clarify exactly the purpose of the study.
The motion has been moved. Is there any debate?
Senator Mitchell: I will ask one other question, not to be difficult. Everywhere else we say "Canadian Armed Forces.'' In (c) we say "Canadian Armed Forces and Veterans.'' What's the difference there? Does it matter?
Senator White: If I may, Mr. Chair, there are also some wording issues around (a) compared to (c). One talks about veterans; one talks about retired members. I think we probably should clean it up to have the same verbiage in each of those sections, as if there's a difference between retired members and veterans. Maybe there is. If so, I don't think I understand what the difference is.
Senator Mitchell: In fact, (a) talks about "serving and retired members of the Canadian Armed Forces.'' Section (b) just talks about "members of the Canadian Armed Forces,'' and (c) talks about "Canadian Armed Forces and Veterans.'' So adding the RCMP helps, but there is some inconsistency, unless there's something I'm missing on (b) and that OSI wouldn't affect veterans as well as serving members.
Senator White: Maybe an amendment to (a), (b) and (c), suggesting that wherever it says "members of Canadian Armed Forces'' that it say "members and veterans of the Canadian Armed Forces and members and veterans of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.'' Add that to (a), (b) and (c) so they're identical, and then remove whatever other verbiage is there.
The Chair: Well, first of all, just so we have a procedure here that's correct, my understanding is that this motion was passed in the previous Parliament. I'm at a bit of a disadvantage because I just assumed that this was the way it was done.
I don't disagree with anything you've said, Senator Mitchell. I'm just trying to understand. We have not passed the amendment. We were going to consider the amendment, so perhaps you would withdraw your initial amendment.
Senator Mitchell: I do.
The Chair: Is it agreed that Senator Mitchell withdraw his amendment?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: And Senator White, you will move a motion to amend —
Senator White: I would move a motion that sections (a), (b) and (c) —
The Chair: Why don't we do this so that it's clear. Let's move an amendment to section (a). Can you move a motion to section a)?
Senator White: I move that section (a) be amended after the word "affecting,'' that it would refer to "serving and veteran members of the Canadian Armed Forces and serving and veteran members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police,'' and then go back to "including operational stress . . . .''
The Chair: Is everybody in agreement with the proposed amendment that's been moved by Senator White?
Senator Carignan: Section (a) talks about operational impact. It's probably for that reason that they didn't put in vets. It's because it was operational impact. For vets, they don't have operational impact.
[Translation]
Senator Mitchell: Veterans are also mentioned — the serving and retired — but not in French.
[English]
Senator Carignan: Okay; I understand.
The Chair: So is everybody agreed with the amendment put forward by Senator White?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: So moved.
I'd like to move on to section (b).
Senator White: I'd like to move a motion that after the word "provided'' it would say, "to serving and veteran members of the Canadian Armed Forces and serving and veteran members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police affected by,'' and then the same as is already there, "OSIs.''
The Chair: Is everybody in agreement with the amendment?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: So moved.
Senator White: With regard to section (c), I move a motion that states, "for serving and veteran members of the Canadian Armed Forces and serving and veteran members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police;'' and strike out "for members of the Canadian Forces and Veterans.''
Is that clear? That's where we were going, right?
The Chair: Everybody has heard the amendment, so I will call the question.
Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: So moved.
Now, colleagues, I'd like to refer to the body of the motion as amended. Is everybody in agreement with the motion as amended?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: So moved.
Colleagues, that takes care of that order of business.
There is one other motion. I'm going to move a procedural motion so that it doesn't have to be moved every time we have a meeting in respect to staff staying in an in camera meeting. I move:
That each committee member be allowed to have one staff person present at any in camera meeting unless there is a decision for a particular meeting to exclude all staff.
Is everybody in agreement?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: So moved.
Colleagues, that brings the business portion of our meeting to an end. I will adjourn the meeting and the steering committee will get together in the next little while to determine what's going to take place in respect to next week and any further business.
(The committee adjourned.)