Proceedings of the Subcommittee on
Veterans Affairs
Issue No. 11 - Evidence - March 21, 2018
OTTAWA, Wednesday, March 21, 2018
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs met this day at 12:02 p.m., in public, to continue its study on the services and benefits provided to members of the Canadian Forces; to veterans; to members and former members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and their families; and in camera, to continue its study on issues relating to creating a defined, professional, and consistent system for veterans as they leave the Canadian Armed Forces.
Senator Jean-Guy Dagenais (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Hello, everyone.
Today we will be studying the services and benefits provided to members of the Canadian Forces, veterans, members and former members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and their families.
Appearing today is the Honourable Seamus O’Regan, MP, Minister of Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence. Welcome to our committee, Mr. O’Regan.
We also welcome a regular witness, General (Ret’d) W.J. Natynczyk, Deputy Minister of Veterans Affairs. Welcome, Mr. Natynczyk.
Mr. Minister, I believe you have a presentation, but first I would ask the senators to kindly introduce themselves, starting on my right with Senator Boniface.
[English]
Senator Boniface: Senator Gwen Boniface, Ontario.
Senator Wallin: Senator Pamela Wallin, Saskatchewan.
Senator McIntyre: Senator Paul McIntyre, New Brunswick.
Senator Richards: Senator Dave Richards from New Brunswick.
[Translation]
The Chair: I am Senator Jean-Guy Dagenais from Quebec, and I chair this committee.
Please go ahead, Mr. O’Regan.
[English]
Hon. Seamus O’Regan, P.C., M.P., Minister of Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence: Good afternoon, Chairman Dagenais and members of the committee.
I am very pleased to appear before you for the first time as Minister of Veterans Affairs and to be among like-minded individuals, all striving for the best possible services and benefits for our veterans.
[Translation]
I know we agree on the esteem we have for the courage and sacrifice of the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces.
[English]
I know we share a commitment to honouring their contribution to our peace and security. I also know that we share a dedication to ensuring the well-being of our veterans and their families, a dedication that is evident throughout Veteran Affairs Canada.
[Translation]
I am proud of what the department has accomplished over the past two years, making real differences in the lives of veterans. And I am optimistic about what is on the horizon in the weeks and months ahead. But first, let’s take a quick look back.
[English]
Two years ago, we invested nearly $6 billion to reopen nine Veterans Affairs Canada offices that had been closed by the previous government, and we opened a new one in Surrey, British Columbia. We increased the amount of money that goes to veterans with service-related disabilities when we increased the maximum disability award to $360,000, and we moved the earnings loss Income Replacement Benefit from 75 per cent of a veteran’s pre-release salary to 90 per cent. At the same time, we hired more than 400 employees who help support them. That was just the beginning.
The following year, in Budget 2017, we shifted our focus to the overall well-being of veterans because we know it takes more than money alone. Veterans and their families need and deserve long-term financial security. That requires that we provide continuing support for their health and well-being to restore and strengthen the sense of purpose that helps our releasing members and veterans to find meaningful employment, to transition smoothly to their post-military career. This takes investing in education and training.
[Translation]
So on April 1, our redesigned Career Transition Services Program will launch. Coaches who understand military culture will provide job-search training and information on education, training and the labour market for current and former members of the Canadian Armed Forces, their spouses and common-law partners.
[English]
This is in addition to the Education and Training Benefit that will enable veterans to go back to school to get the education they want after service. A veteran with six or more years of service can receive up to $40,000 for college, university or technical education. Those with 12 or more years of service can get up to $80,000.
Veterans Affairs Canada will continue to actively support the well-being of veterans and their families. We know that caregivers play a major role in supporting the well-being of veterans. That is why we introduced the new Caregiver Recognition Benefit, which will provide them with $1,000 per month tax free.
Mental health also plays a role in well-being. While most members of the Canadian Armed Forces make a smooth transition to post-service life, some struggle for various reasons. One of them is mental health. Of the approximately 1,500 members who release from the forces every year due to illness or injury, almost 20 per cent are dealing with a mental health condition.
Recognizing this, Veteran Affairs Canada, the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces worked hand in hand to develop a new joint suicide prevention strategy that identified over 160 initiatives that will help our military women and men reduce the risk, build resiliency and prevent suicide to the extent possible.
This new strategy builds on many existing services and programs, including our nationwide network of 4,000 mental health professionals. However, it is important that we continue to learn, innovate and share best practices, which is why we are also establishing a centre of excellence on PTSD and related mental health conditions.
Expected to launch soon, the centre of excellence will provide information and research results to frontline health professionals to help ensure Canada’s military, whether they are still in uniform or already released, receive more comprehensive and consistent care.
To help ensure the long-term financial security of veterans and their families, two other programs were launched on April 1: the new veteran and family well-being fund and the veteran emergency fund.
[Translation]
The most significant item to address financial security is, of course, Pension for Life, which I announced in December. Fulfilling this promise we made in 2015 will make a huge difference in the lives of veterans and their families.
[English]
Pension for Life is a combination of benefits that provide recognition, income support and stability to members and veterans who experience a service-related illness or injury.
One of the three new financial benefits is the pain and suffering compensation, a monthly tax-free, life-long benefit that recognizes the pain and suffering caused by a disability resulting from a service-related injury or illness.
For veterans with severe and permanent service-related impairments that create barriers to re-establishing in post-service life, the second benefit is the additional pain and suffering compensation that provides additional tax-free support.
The third benefit is the monthly Income Replacement Benefit for veterans who face barriers to re-establishing in post-service life because of health issues resulting primarily from military service. It pays the veteran the higher amount of 90 per cent of their pre-release salary, indexed to the cost of living. The minimum amount in 2019 will be $48,600 a year.
[Translation]
Veterans who receive this benefit may earn up to another $20,000 a year from employment income before the amount of their income replacement benefit is adjusted. Our plan is to introduce this legislation and have the Pension for Life option available for veterans on April 1, 2019.
[English]
Two more provisions announced in Budget 2018 will provide additional measures to better serve our veterans.
First, Budget 2018 recognizes the role of psychiatric service dogs in helping veterans cope with conditions like PTSD, and associated costs will now be eligible for the medical expense tax credit.
[Translation]
Second, we propose providing $24.4 million over five years for repairing graves and grave markers of Canadians that were erected by the Government of Canada — dealing with the backlog of 45,000 in need of repair.
[English]
We are investing $42.8 million over two years to increase Veteran Affairs Canada’s capacity to deliver services to veterans and their families.
All of these measures, those already in effect, those that will begin next month and new measures included in Budget 2018 like Pension for Life, will have a direct impact on the well-being of veterans and their families. They will have financial support. They will be provided needed physical and mental health services. They will have support for re-establishment in life after service.
They are investments in the future of the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces and our veterans, all of whom we strive to treat with the care they need, the compassion they deserve and the respect to which they are owed.
[Translation]
I look forward to working with all of you in the months ahead in our joint mission to make their lives better. Thank you very much.
The Chair: Thank you very much for your presentation, Mr. Minister.
Do you have anything to add, General Natynczyk? Very well. We will begin the question period.
[English]
Senator Wallin: I am so pleased to hear all of those remarks and comments today.
Because this gentleman has been a regular attendee here, guest witness Gary Walbourne whom, of course, you know, I am going back to his statement in February. I know you’ve made these announcements, but there’s still a transition issue. He said:
In the Canadian military, there is no boulder more stubborn to move than the process known as transition. Often referred to as, “transition to civilian life”—transition is, in theory, a smooth and respectful exit from the military for ill and injured members.
The reality is that transition is neither smooth nor respectful.
His concern has always been that, at the end of the exit process from the military, you then have to start again to convince doctors of your situation and to fill out more forms.
Have you actually solved that problem?
Mr. O’Regan: No. A few things have lined up here that I hope will bode well.
First, it was about a year ago that I was visiting my brother, a lieutenant-commander in the navy at Esquimalt. He had begun the position as acting commandant for the naval fleet school there. This meant that he dealt less with navigation, which is his love, and more with human resource issues.
He said to me as a sitting member of Parliament that government has to do more on training our soldiers, service airmen and airwomen, and seamen to become veterans. We have to train them.
When the Prime Minister sat me down in his office two days before I was sworn in and informed me that I would be the next Minister of Veteran Affairs, he said, “The first thing I need you to start working on is closing the scene, convergence.”
Those were my marching orders. They are in my mandate letter, but it’s important for you to know that was on his mind.
He went into detail about how he felt it should go. It has to be veteran centric, which means the veterans should really not feel or know that they’re moving from one bureaucracy to another bureaucracy. The information that has been gained on them, the doctors and the medical care they receive, should be as seamless as we can possibly make it as they make that transition.
I haven’t mentioned this before, but he made a point of saying, knowing very well that I had a difficult time in my transition from my previous life to my new life, and the anxieties I went through in that transition, that I might be uniquely able to help or at least be empathetic. Indeed I am. That was just to give you some of the background.
Then I got sworn in, Mr. Natynczyk threw me in the back of a car and poured a fire hose of information on me about closing the seam.
Our primary objective up until Christmas has been getting Pension for Life ready, because we had made a commitment in the budget that we would have that done for Christmas.
Now I can tell you the Pension for Life program is essential and the backlog is essential. Third, and they are all equal, I would say, is convergence.
I have been working diligently with the Minister of National Defence. Right now, we are meeting about once a week on average ourselves. Our officials and our offices are meeting constantly to give this momentum and to get this going.
We’re also talking with my colleagues, Carla Qualtrough and Scott Brison. Some of the things we hear that really aggravate veterans are interesting. Mr. Natynczyk and I have been on the road steady and in town halls. It’s something that you pointed out. It’s the aggravant of having an injury and now having to fill it all out again, and having already told a bunch of doctors and having to tell them again.
Some of these things were set up with the best of intentions such as privacy. We shouldn’t be throwing people’s medical records around willy-nilly. Fair enough, but in this case they become obstructionist. Worse than that, they’ve added to the anxiety of our veterans. That’s why we have to work with Treasury Board and with PSPC. We are doing that. They are very open to that.
We make the analogy, not entirely correct and perhaps not entirely fashionable these days, that when you log on to Facebook or Google there are terms and conditions. You click yes and that’s it.
Obviously, that’s not a great analogy these days, but we can ease it so that it is sooner in the process. In fact, what I would like to see and what we’re looking at is a situation, almost as soon as they join the Canadian Armed Forces, we start putting that process in motion. At the time they leave this information will be readily available to Veteran Affairs Canada.
The sooner we can get that process under way, the less of a transition it will appear to the veteran when they move.
Senator Wallin: Do you have a timeline on this now?
Mr. O’Regan: No, there’s no set timeline other than as soon as possible. Some of this will require legislation, and we have to keep in mind as well that will lengthen that timeline. I am impatient.
General (Ret’d) W. J. Natynczyk, Deputy Minister, Veteran Affairs Canada: Thanks for the question. It’s really important. Of all of the veterans who come to Veteran Affairs, about a quarter of them come to us while they are in uniform. Some folks just don’t want to reveal it. They want to wait until after they release before they come to Veteran Affairs.
Mr. O’Regan: If I could interject. I completely relate to this.
Senator Wallin: You don’t tell the employer you’re leaving.
Mr. O’Regan: I’ll be blunt. Pam knows me from my previous life. I wasn’t going to tell Bev, Jeff and Marci on “Canada AM” that I was thinking about leaving. It was the most difficult thing to do. This was the writ large. After 25 years in the military, are you going to tell your brothers and sisters that you’re even thinking about leaving? There’s almost a sense of betrayal. That’s what they told us, just to interject.
Gen. Natynczyk: That’s spot on. Part of the issue, and we know this from the research, is that having a viable plan is essential to a successful transition. Again, in the military culture where you’re hoping to get that next course, posting or deployment, you don’t want to share the fact you’re looking for a job on the outside. Therefore, you don’t actually develop a plan until it’s very late in the phase.
To your point and what the minister was saying, we’re working very closely with National Defence, the Canadian Armed Forces, the Chief of the Defence Staff and the Surgeon General on the ease of transition of medical files and so on.
One of the problems is that a lot of our sailors, soldiers, airmen and airwomen, me included, didn’t go to the doctors or the medics when we were having issues. You would show up for morning PT, take whatever and keep on doing it.
The problem is that in some cases the medical documents are not conclusive with either the injury or the diagnosis. In some cases they are. In some cases they aren’t. It’s about actually trying to get a diagnosis before the individual leaves the Canadian Armed Forces.
Again, all credit to the Canadian Armed Forces and Chief of the Defence Staff for professionalizing that transition so all the paperwork gets done before they step away from the Canadian Armed Forces. It’s absolutely terrific.
In that way, as they transition to the minister’s accountability they have a higher success rate coming out. We do research every few years and we know that in general about two-thirds of all veterans transitioning are successful. They find a new purpose. They have the support they require and the family has support.
What are their circumstances? About a third of veterans are not successful and there’s a lot of research on that too. It’s called the Life After Service Studies, to which I am sure you have access.
A lot of the well-being that the minister was speaking about is really focused on that vulnerable group, perhaps folks who were more junior in rank, those who don’t have easily transferable skills like from the combat arms and some of the other trades. How do we ensure that they have a plan, the training and education if they require it, and then assistance in career transition so they are successful in re-establishing themselves in society?
Mr. O’Regan: There are two essential points that I would add to that. Mr. Natynczyk brings up the fact that two-thirds don’t have a problem with transition. It’s important to say that not just because you want to spin the good news. It’s really important to assure those people who are contemplating transition that it’s not a given that it will be awful.
The two-thirds do get through it fine. We are attempting to help, but one-third is still a lot. Don’t get me wrong. It’s really important to get the message out there that two-thirds of the time they’re going to be okay.
Another really important point, in terms of putting a pedal to the metal, is that the Chief of the Defence Staff has had Admiral John Newton with us at all our town halls and everything we’ve been doing across the country so that he can see first hand what veterans are bringing up. Whether it comes to Pension for Life, our town halls are open to anything. Many of them do come up with transition or the difficulties with transition. It has been very helpful to have him there first hand. He can respond and he is dutifully taking notes on behalf of the CDS.
[Translation]
The Chair: General Natynczyk, members of the military or a police force are brothers in arms — Senator Boniface can attest to this, as she was in uniform for 25, 30 or 35 years. It is a brotherhood. It is not like you are leaving a company. You are returning to civilian life and the transition is quite difficult. You are leaving a uniform and an organization where everything was strictly organized and you received clear and precise orders. Then you return to civilian life. You need some help from your employer, whether that is the army, or even a police force, to make the transition. You expect some recognition from the people you worked with for 20 or 30 years. That is why it is so important to provide for a smooth transition. It is smooth for two-thirds of people, but it is a difficult transition for a third of the people. Perhaps we need to look into the experience of those people.
On that note, Senator McIntyre has the floor.
[English]
Senator McIntyre: Welcome to our committee. My first question has to do with financial benefits paid to veterans. My understanding is that some veterans are disappointed that the new Veterans’ Education and Training Benefit is being offered only to veterans with six years of service or more. As we know, this benefit covers tuition and living expenses to facilitate a new career path.
Why do veterans with less than six years’ service not have access to this benefit, and how much would it cost to expand the service to all veterans regardless of length of service?
Gen. Natynczyk: When we developed the Veterans’ Education and Training Benefit, we worked very closely with the Canadian Armed Forces and our colleagues south of the border in the U.S. military to find out what the lessons learned were from the U.S. military and the U.S. veterans.
We got a lot of great insights from them. This is a very important benefit because, for the first time since World War II, we are creating a benefit for men and women leaving the armed forces who are healthy, who are retiring, and whether they have finished their basic engagement. The basic engagement is five years of service.
We wanted to make that we complement the initial engagement in the Armed Forces and don’t create a benefit that actually stimulates attrition. We are spending a great amount of time and effort to make sure our men and women are trained. We want to make sure we’re not creating an incentive for them to leave prematurely.
This benefit, which is again for voluntary release, retirement and medically released, is on top of the vocational rehab program we have today. The current rate is about $78,000.
Any veteran who leaves today or in the past under the New Veterans Charter and releases as a result of a medical issue, Veterans Affairs can use up to $78,000 for those veterans to get their training, education and re-establishment into society.
A veteran who leaves medically could go through that vocational rehab of $78,000 and then put on top of that this additional amount.
Just to say in closing, we want to create incentives so that folks would finish their basic engagement, finish their contract, and indeed stay on with a view to getting the greater benefit down the road.
Mr. O’Regan: If I could just add, this speaks to convergence and making sure our departments work closely together. It’s important, in erring on the side of generosity in much of what we’re trying to do with benefits and services, that we not compromise the Department of National Defence or the Canadian Armed Forces. We have been working hand in glove with them in listening to what they have to say. That is vitally important.
Senator McIntyre: How much would it cost to expand the program to all veterans, regardless of length of service? I don’t think you can answer that question, can you?
Mr. O’Regan: Again, I don’t want to be in a position where we’re compromising the position of the Department of National Defence or the Canadian Armed Forces. This was done with this limit quite purposefully and in consultation with them.
Senator McIntyre: My next question has to do with support to spouses and families.
Do all veterans released for medical reasons and their families now have access to all 32 family resource centres across the country as announced in the Budget 2017?
Mr. O’Regan: As of April 1, senator, they will. We did a pilot project on seven. We just visited the one in Edmonton and it has worked remarkably well. Again, it helps with the transition.
For many of these families, the MFRC is what they know. It has been of tremendous support to them. To not have to leave it quite suddenly really does help them with that transition.
Senator McIntyre: To follow up on the question, one of the main priorities in your mandate letter is the end of the time limit for surviving spouses to apply for vocational rehab and assistance services, which until now has been one year.
Will this time limit indeed end on April 1 of this year?
Mr. O’Regan: Yes.
Senator McIntyre: It will.
Is this change retroactive?
Mr. O’Regan: No, it is not retroactive.
Senator McIntyre: It would not apply to surviving spouses of veterans who have been dead for several years, for example?
Gen. Natynczyk: I think we will have to check on that, sir.
Senator McIntyre: Do you want to provide with us a written answer?
Mr. O’Regan: Of course.
Senator McIntyre: Are you anticipating a marked increase in applications in this respect?
Mr. O’Regan: For what?
Senator McIntyre: For the applications.
Mr. O’Regan: Is that for the survivor benefits?
Senator McIntyre: For the survivor benefits, yes.
Gen. Natynczyk: I am not sure. Each case is unique. At this point in time, it would be difficult to forecast the numbers of folks who would come back.
Senator Boniface: Thank you very much for appearing before the committee. In particular I am interested, because I’ve received a few emails, in the marriage after 60 clawback. It’s a rather outdated notion, and I believe it was included in mandate letters both for you and your predecessor.
Could tell me what action the government will be taking on this or what stage you are at in the consideration?
Gen. Natynczyk: We’re working very closely with the Canadian Armed Forces. Again, this is a Canadian Forces superannuation issue as opposed to a veteran disability pension issue.
We’re working very closely with the Chief of the Defence Staff and the Chief of Military Personnel as they work through the options and work with the whole of government in developing that proposal. I can assure you that work is happening in earnest on that issue.
Mr. O’Regan: You’re not the only one getting the emails.
Senator Boniface: I am sure. I would like to go back to the transition issues and tag on to the chair’s comments about the identity, in our experience, soldiers and other agencies such as the police have with a uniform and how that transition takes place.
In terms of starting the process early, and I will use an example from my former agency, everybody would take a retirement seminar some time within the final five years of when they go. There were absolutely the same general concerns you raised, including if you go to the retirement seminar what does it mean, how does that affect promotion, and all those things that are alive and real in a competitive environment.
Once it became a mandatory step, it seemed to take away the notion that if you go, you signal this or that. It’s just somewhere in the last five years, whatever those five years might be, and there’s no obligation in terms of going in the five years.
Has it turned your mind in working with Defence to other ways of starting people to think much earlier in terms of it as a natural process and transition?
Mr. O’Regan: I think our natural inclination, to be honest with you, would be even more ambitious in terms of timeline. It should start at the beginning. Therefore any question would go out the window as to “Why did I see Joe go down to the retirement office? I thought he had another 10 years.”
We want to encourage everyone to start opening up the My VAC Account, our online portal which has proved remarkably successful. We’re throwing a lot more support behind it because it’s a quicker, faster, easier way for people to get the benefits they deserve. It’s an easier way to be introduced to services and that sort of thing.
Also, if we can get them started on that, then we can start accumulating the information that is garnered during their time of service through My VAC. We won’t reap the rewards for that for a little while yet, but if we can start that process earlier that sort of stigma, I would say, would be removed.
Hearkening back to a previous life of mine as a Bell Let’s Talk spokesman, the more you talk about, the more it helps remove that stigma. Even our talking about it here and people seeing us talking about it help remove that stigma.
I would argue that probably one of the best things you could do is to start as early as you possibly can. Please God, every serviceman and servicewoman coming in will become a veteran. We know it’s inevitable. Let’s make the transition as soon as we can.
Senator Boniface: On your mental health strategies, in particular the comments around joint suicide strategies, are you in a position yet where you can measure the impact of any of those?
Mr. O’Regan: I don’t believe that we’re quite there yet.
Gen. Natynczyk: We’re actually doing the baseline study. Keeping in mind that in Canada there are in excess of 650,000 veterans in Canada, only 135,000 are clients of Veterans Affairs. We’re doing a baseline study across the country to find out what is the situation.
We have found from our U.S. colleagues, who are facing the same issues, that they don’t know for a lot of those veterans who are not clients of the U.S. VA. We find the same, so we’re actually doing that baseline study. That kind of work is happening now, upon which we can actually measure impacts of this joint suicide strategy and plan going into the future.
Senator Boniface: Thank you.
[Translation]
The Chair: To follow up on Senator Boniface’s question, I do not know if the same was true for the Ontario Provincial Police, but the spouse also attended pre-retirement training sessions so the couple would get the same information.
Senator Richards, do you have a question?
[English]
Senator Richards: My question was: Has the stigma attached to post-traumatic stress been alleviated in any way? Are people coming forward in greater numbers with post-traumatic stress symptoms, let’s say, than they were 20 or 30 years ago? Has the stigma attached to it been reduced?
Either one of you can answer.
Mr. O’Regan: I’ll begin and Mr. Natynczyk will finish, which is how we usually work.
It has increased. That is a good thing because it means we can get them help. In fact I’ll tell you, senator, PTSD in its nature was actually one of the defining principles of how we designed Pension for Life.
I firmly believe in the power of meaningful work, purposeful work. The sooner we can get veterans into purposeful work, the better they’ll be on a whole host of levels.
We needed to find a way for veterans being released medically to get to work, if they could. If they weren’t, we wanted to get them well enough that they could.
Then we needed a system that was flexible enough if PTSD did take hold five years or 10 years down the road. We’re still learning so much about this, but one thing we do know is that suddenly it can take hold years down the road. We wanted to make it as seamless as we could for them to step off this track and on to that track to go to a place where we could get them well and where financially they won’t have to worry about it.
If we can get 90 per cent of their pre-release salary, that’s a big help. We can get them into a situation where they are not in a state of increased anxiety because they are worried about mortgage and rent and their family. They can concentrate on getting well. When they are at that place, we can bring them back to work. If they have to go back again at some point, we can do that too.
That was a guiding principle behind the design of our Pension for Life proposal.
Gen. Natynczyk: I want to echo what the minister indicated. When we were in Edmonton last week doing the town halls in the base mess, I recalled when I was in uniform in the same mess a few years ago. I had about 30 soldiers who were part of the Integrated Personnel Support Centres, the Joint Personnel Support Units. I asked every one of the folks who had a mental health injury, “How many of you folks walked in here on your own?” The answer was zero. It was their loved ones and it was their battle buddies who encouraged them to come in.
On this topic it’s difficult to use absolute terms because everyone is unique. The trend lines indicate folks are coming forward. That’s why having this societal awareness is so important. The sooner folks come in and get the assistance, the sooner they get the treatment. The sooner they learn the coping mechanisms and adapt to their new normal, many more can actually return to their units or transition.
The challenge is that for whatever reason we still have those young soldiers like the one who said, “Sir, I wasn’t going to tell any of my battle buddies and I was going to leave the service with my head held high.” We’re dealing with that individual having a crisis down range.
Again, we met with the leadership out west and they’re war vets. The leadership are war veterans. They’ve been down range. They understand. I am very confident in setting the conditions so that folks can come forward.
Senator Richards: Dealing with people with mental conditions in my province, one of the terrible things about it is the isolation they feel. That’s why I asked the question. Many of them are afraid to come forward and they try to bluff their way through. They try to bluff themselves.
With veterans, it must be horrible, especially if you’ve dealt with certain things overseas that you can’t get rid of.
Senator McIntyre: Complementary to Senator Richard’s interesting question when he spoke about post-traumatic stress disorder and chronic pain.
This brings me to the topic of veterans’ use of cannabis for medical purposes. I understand that Veterans Affairs indicated that there’s a need for additional research in that area.
What are the recent developments in research on the use of medical cannabis by veterans, notably to deal with post-traumatic stress disorder and chronic pain?
Gen. Natynczyk: We’re working closely with the Canadian Armed Forces and Health Canada to move forward on the research.
We’re also working with partners, in this case the Canadian Institutes of Health Research and the Canadian Institute for Military & Veteran Health Research, which brings together the medical faculties of all universities across the country to do the research.
We’re in lockstep with them and recognize that Health Canada has a significant lead on cannabis for medical purposes across the board.
Keeping in mind how this began a few years ago, it was the courts ordering that we needed to be able to provide cannabis for medical purposes to veterans. I think you’re aware of the evolution in that regard. We’re trying to catch up, again working with the research professionals across the country, and we can’t get that soon enough.
[Translation]
The Chair: Before we begin the second round of questions, I have two questions for you, Mr. O’Regan; I hope you can answer them. The Government of Canada created the War of 1812 Book of Remembrance. It lists the names of more than 1,600 Canadians, soldiers and First Nations allies who lost their lives in the War of 1812. The book is apparently complete now. I have asked the same question to Senator Harder, the government’s representative in Senate, and he told me that the book has not yet been placed on the altar intended for it in the Memorial Chamber in the Peace Tower. I have asked this question in the Senate a number of times to find out when the Book of Remembrance commemorating those lost in the War of 1812 would be placed in the Memorial Chamber in the Peace Tower. I cannot say that I got a satisfactory reply, but I think you are in the best position to answer this.
When will this book be presented in the Memorial Chapel of the Peace Tower, since I was told the book is now ready?
[English]
Mr. O’Regan: Mr. Chair, I don’t have an immediate answer for you. I can give you an assurance that we will get a response to you in very short order.
I am speaking off the cuff here, which I am not supposed to do.
[Translation]
The Chair: You have the right to be candid. Rest assured, we are among friends here.
[English]
Mr. O’Regan: Centre Block is going to be going through massive construction, so that would, in terms of public display, hold it up; but your point about the book is essential, unless you know something about it.
[Translation]
Gen. Natynczyk: I do not have any information about that.
[English]
Mr. O’Regan: We’ll get something back to you, sir, in short order.
[Translation]
The Chair: Thank you very much.
My second question is one that I have also asked the government representative in the Senate. Your government announced the construction of a monument in memory of the Canadian service men and women who served in Afghanistan, but it seems that not much has been done since it was announced. Further, the previous government had announced the construction of a monument in honour of Canadian Armed Forces members who had received the Victoria Cross, the highest distinction for an act of bravery, yet nothing has been planned thus far. What is the reason for the delays on these two projects? How can you explain the delays and why has your department not wanted to proceed with these projects that were announced in 2015?
[English]
Mr. O’Regan: I know that we have been working closely with the National Capital Commission on this. I can get you an update, Mr. Chair, again in very short order, unless there is anything you want to add.
Gen. Natynczyk: Exactly. As the minister indicated, we actually have a Veterans Commemoration Advisory Group. They provided us advice at the last major summit.
We went to all of the veterans and asked, “What are your choices in terms of where you would like the monument to go?” They provided us choices. Now we’re working with the National Capital Commission and with Heritage Canada, because we don’t own property, in terms of deciding where to put it so that everyone is satisfied, veterans and the NCC alike.
[Translation]
The Chair: Thank you very much, gentlemen.
We will now proceed with the second round of questions.
[English]
Senator Wallin: I don’t know what the answer is, so I am just asking you. With all of the new plans and the April 1 date, are you contemplating taking the advice of both the ombudsman for CAF and the Department of Defence and the vets ombudsman that there should only be one? The ombudsman for each of those offices should be merged because they’re the ones who get caught with the transition issue? Has that been contemplated anywhere?
Mr. O’Regan: It’s not something I’ve personally contemplated yet, no.
Gen. Natynczyk: I have no knowledge.
Senator McIntyre: Has additional progress been made since last year in transferring medical records from the Canadian Armed Forces to Veterans Affairs?
Mr. O’Regan: We have made some.
Gen. Natynczyk: We have made progress in terms of expediting the transfer. The challenge is always privacy and severing third person information from the files.
Under the minister’s authority we are working with the Canadian Armed Forces. We have actually seconded folks into the Canadian Armed Forces to assist in the severances, which is really tough work, and in the way we are adjudicating to make sure our approach is much broader than just the medical records.
I’ll use mental health as an example. If a person has a diagnosis and we know they’ve had some service, we can expedite their adjudication.
I would say the major stumbling block right now still is privacy. We can digitize the rest. We actually need to sever out third party information before we can actually deal with the adjudication process.
Mr. O’Regan: Some of that may require a more formal process, senator. Maybe down the road we might need your help with that.
Let me add that the sense of urgency is not lost on us. One of the most aggravating things for veterans, when they speak to us, is having to go through paperwork and new doctors and having to prove their injuries again. We hear them loud and clear.
Senator McIntyre: It’s mind boggling.
Mr. O’Regan: Absolutely, and we are impatient.
Gen. Natynczyk: We’re working closely with the Surgeon General in terms of when they do the diagnosis.
One of the problems inside the Canadian Armed Forces is that normally when the physician or the medics are treating a sailor, soldier airman or airwoman, their focus is on returning that person to duty. While the diagnosis is very interesting, it’s like how soon can we get this person back in the battalion, on the ship or in the squadron to do business?
In some cases the diagnosis isn’t there. For example, the knee is swollen, as opposed to it being a meniscus tear or whatever. Often what happens is that many of these injuries kind of pile up until the person is about to release. Then, when you look at the documents, there is no diagnosis.
The veterans believe there is a diagnosis because they believe they had something occur, but actually understanding what occurred is not on the file.
To your point, we’ve had the Surgeon General and his whole team in. By the way, the minister’s chief medical officer sits side by side with the Surgeon General at the Carling campus. We are as integrated as we could possibly be, so that they understand the perspective that we need to know this information as soon as possible to expedite the whole adjudication process.
Senator McIntyre: My next question has to do with mental health and, more particularly, the mental health centre of excellence. I think the creation of such a centre is an excellent idea.
What progress has been made in creating the centre?
Mr. O’Regan: Watch this space. We should be able to make an announcement in the next few months. The idea is there would be a virtual element to it so that it will be able to service physicians and front-line staff right across the country.
We have learned a tremendous amount. We share information where we can with Veterans Affairs south of the border and with our other allies, fortunately and unfortunately. I say “unfortunately” because obviously there’s a need. We’ve built up a certain level of expertise. The more we can disseminate that, share, and further the research, the better.
Senator McIntyre: What will be the action priorities of these centres once they are operational? What do you expect the research priorities to be?
Mr. O’Regan: In terms of research priorities I’ll leave that to the researchers. The only direction I may offer is that we want to get people well. We would like to get them back into society where we can, hopefully as working members of society.
Gen. Natynczyk: What we’re trying to do as we go forward is learn the lessons from our U.S. allies. They have a number of centres of excellence, and they have a centre of excellence on mental health.
As the minister indicated, we have one of the most comprehensive treatment footprints anywhere. With the department we have 10 operational stress injury clinics or OSI clinics, one residential and nine for outpatients. Our veterans can go into the Canadian Forces operational trauma and stress support centres or OTSSCs.
In addition, going back to Senator Richards’ question, we have access to 4,000 mental health professionals coast to coast to coast. Some of our veterans are in the hinterland and feel isolated.
The minister talked about the virtual side of it. One of the challenges or one of the keys of it is: How do you raise the game of everybody? How do you ensure you’re working to the gold standard or using the latest techniques for everybody across the country?
This is the opportunity to actually ensure we’re using world-leading research and the lessons from that go out across the entire network.
Because we don’t provide primary health care or mental health care and we’re in partnership with the provinces and agencies, the second order effect is that everybody’s game improves.
Senator Boniface: This is probably not an easy question to answer, but I am interested in looking at veterans over the last 30 years. What are you seeing in terms of the needs and how the needs have shifted?
Mr. O’Regan: I think Mr. Natynczyk will be in a better position to answer this question. I know, just based on my experience, that one of the big things we’ve seen is a growth in the need for mental health services because people now are more willing to identify, which is a good thing.
Senator Boniface: Absolutely.
Mr. O’Regan: The veterans we’re seeing coming out of the Afghan war are different from the ones we’ve seen previously. They’re becoming veterans in an age now where it’s okay to talk about mental health, or increasingly okay.
The military is still a very different culture. I highly recommend you don’t spend too much time on Facebook on any of these issues but, if you do, you will find a great deal of knowledge about it. Unfortunately, it’s not always accurate information, but the demand is there and it is poignant. We are attempting to keep up and keenly aware.
I should say too that when veterans, or in fact anybody, gets to a point where they are willing to admit they have an issue, they have a problem, and have come to grips with their suffering an illness, we need to get them help right then and there. It’s important to give them access to care at the moment they acknowledge that they need it.
Gen. Natynczyk: I want to reinforce what the minister indicated. I think the big lesson learned is that the stigma has prevented World War II, Korean War, Suez, Congo, Cyprus and Middle East vets from coming forward in a timely way to be triaged, diagnosed and treated so they can cope.
A lot of families have had a tough time for decades. We still have today World War II and Korean War veterans in their 80s, 70s, 60s and 50s coming forward for the first time, even though the experiences were decades before.
Going to Senator Richards’ point, veterans who made up an excuse answered in a certain way to avoid diagnosis and triage. That is the first one.
The second is that it’s always interesting when the country went to war in World War I and World War II the vets were generally in their late teens and their 20s. They went to war and came home as a demographic.
Therefore, the department provided support to them as they aged all the way to palliative care. As opposed to those groups who served in between the two wars and since the Korean War, many have been career sailors, soldiers, airmen and airwomen. The average age of release is 37 years old. The average career is 20 years, as opposed to someone who signed up, went to war, very intensive, and came home.
We put 41,000 sailors, soldiers, airmen and airwomen through Afghanistan. We need to provide them with the well-being support so they can get re-established. We are mindful of a lot of senior NCOs and officers who did that tour. Some went to Bosnia. Some went to Rwanda. Some went to Somalia. We need to provide them with the skills and the agility of all these programs to cater to these different demographics. This is what leads to the comment about the complexity of our programs.
Every man and woman joined the Canadian Armed Forces as a unique individual. Their service was unique. That service changed them. They’re leaving as unique individuals and we need to have the flexibility to tailor the well-being of each and every one of them so they can be successful.
Mr. O’Regan: I by no means mean to take away from some of the commentary you read on Facebook, et cetera. Previously, there were veterans who, because of stigma or because we hadn’t as a society talked about these issues, thought it was their lot in life.
The intensity of emotion and the urgency that you read, as difficult as it can be to read, is real because they know they can get better. In 80 per cent of cases, treatment can help them. You can understand their desperation at times to get well and to demand those services. That’s heartbreaking in some ways but very real. In no way does it take away from what they’re saying.
To Mr. Natynczyk’s latter point, something hit me when we were in Gagetown three weeks ago. I am here talking about Pension for Life. I firmly believe that it is the better way to go.
I couldn’t understand why there was still among younger veterans an attraction toward the Pension Act 1919 benefits. It’s because it’s simple. It’s easy to understand it. I said to them that as a politician it would be much easier for me to stand here and just talk about the Pension Act 1919. The services were available. It is A, B or C, and that is it.
We understand now how complex the issues are. We have the ability to come up with complex and effective solutions, but that makes for a complex story. It makes it difficult for me, when we do the town halls in 20 minutes with one PowerPoint presentation, to assure each veteran in the crowd how this will affect them and they will be okay.
We find the most effective way to do this is to do the town halls that we do to get the information out, to walk people through it and to help them understand the principle of complex solutions to complex problems. Therefore it’s a complex story to tell.
I forgot to mention in my opening statement what Mr. Natynczyk mentioned to me just before these proceedings began. We would be happy to give all members of the committee a full brief on Pension for Life or any other such matters so that you, in turn, in your roles as senators and members of this committee, can pass on the good word. It does take some walking through. It is not easy but, please God, it is effective.
[Translation]
The Chair: Before I give the floor to Senator McIntyre, I have two brief questions myself.
Mr. O’Regan, there is a significant backlog in disability payments in your department. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it has gotten worse since 2017. In the 2018 budget, what proportion of funding will be allocated to clearing up the backlog of disability benefit applications? And in your opinion, how long will it take to eliminate that backlog? This question requires a precise answer. Have you assessed how long it will take to clear the backlog?
[English]
Mr. O’Regan: In the budget, Mr. Chair, as you are aware, there is $42.8 million to tackle the backlog of applications to deliver better services.
I think it’s important to put this on the record. Royal Canadian Legion Dominion President Dave Flannigan said that the investments outlined were a step in the right direction. Union of Veteran Affairs Employees President Carl Gannon Jr. said that he could more than live with $42.8 million over two years to rebuild service delivery capacity.
We have to do better. I would say by way of explanation that the backlog has gone up significantly. This isn’t spin. This is stuff that we know. We are trying to effect a culture change at Veteran Affairs Canada.
In the parlance it’s called a pull culture to a push culture. Instead of the onus being on the veteran to attempt to research and figure out exactly what programs and services they are entitled to, they are owed, the onus is on us to make sure we tell them everything we can about what they are owed and they deserve.
That can take a little more time, but one of the good things about social media is that that the word is out that some things are moving faster and that the benefit of the doubt is being given.
Two days after I was sworn in, Mr. Natynczyk and I flew to Charlottetown with all the VAC employees that we could muster on that Friday. Quite a few of them were in the atrium. I spoke to them and across the country via the Internet. My message to them was to give the benefit of the doubt to the person who calls.
This sounds trite. I don’t mean it to sound trite, but if they need a bath rail and you’re supposed to fill out a form for the bath rail, or go up the line for the bath rail, give them the bath rail. I’ll stand in the House of Commons and I’ll defend the bath rail.
Let’s start changing that culture. That has changed, so the demand over the past few years has increased exponentially.
We are hoping that the $42 million helps us to buck the trend. We started to get ahead. Because started to get ahead, now we are falling a bit behind and now we want to get ahead again.
[Translation]
Gen. Natynczyk: It is a challenge.
[English]
It’s only two years ago that we did receive additional horsepower capacity to address adjudication. The problem is trying to predict the future trend.
After we received support through Budget 2016, we indeed saw even more claims come in because of the popularity of many of our programs. Many more claims came in.
It’s not only capacity, as the minister mentioned. One of the aspects is culture, trying to change the culture so that we are being much more compassionate in terms of claims coming in, streamlining processes, delegating more authority so decisions can be made, and packaging benefits so that if someone receives a disability award for certain aspects we know the things will automatically go to it.
The other aspect is a pull versus a push approach. We’re pushing more benefits in a nice way so the veteran has a comprehensive understanding of what his or her benefits might be, but all of that gives us more capacity.
The challenge is predicting how many will come in the future and we’re in a catch-up situation.
Mr. O’Regan: The sense of urgency is not lost on us. Every time we do these town halls, we have somebody who is in need of a service and benefit. They have been waiting months and months longer than they should have. They take the microphone, and that holds our feet to the fire.
[Translation]
The Chair: My question pertains to veterans. The Liberal Party promised to examine the military competencies conversion tool in order to match up military experience and specialized skills with civilian jobs. On February 12, CBC reported that the government had dropped that proposal. Your government promised to examine the use of those tools to convert military skills to civilian skills. Have you really dropped that promise or do you still plan to act on it?
[English]
Mr. O’Regan: As you said, gainful employment and I firmly believe satisfaction of the workplace and sense of purpose can ease a veteran and their family during the transition from military to civilian life. We committed $74.1 million to enhance the Career Transition Services program so that veterans and their spouses recently been released from CAF can find the work they want in their post-military lives.
An open and transparent process was held to find the organization that can provide career counsellors who are familiar with military culture, job search training support and job finding assistance. We are committed to that process.
Gen. Natynczyk: I would like to add that over the past few years we’ve been working with a not-for-profit organization called the Canada Company. They had set up an organization called Military Employment Transition. We’ve actually had folks dedicated to working side by side with the Canadian Armed Forces doing the translation of skills.
Since a competitive process for the career transition service that the minister had mentioned went out, a company called Agelic was awarded that responsibility. As a result, all the work that was done by the Military Employment Transition is being transferred across in a very cooperative way. All of the work that our teams have done together will be in terms of that skill translator so that we actually have all of those tools. Agelic takes over on this responsibility at the end of April.
Mr. O’Regan: Instead of just resumé writing and helping with those things, we are actually getting into a position where we can work with corporations, with interested companies from across the country to find work, to help veterans translate their experience and their skill sets into civilian life in a meaningful way and, more importantly, to find them jobs with employers who value their work.
Senator McIntyre: I have a final question regarding case managers. My understanding is that the data for 2017 show that the national average is 31 veterans per case manager, with some regions having ratios as high as 36 or even 44 veterans per case manager. Obviously, the idea is to hire more case managers to attain a maximum ratio of 25 veterans per case manager.
When do you expect to attain the objective of a maximum of 25 clients per case manager?
Mr. O’Regan: It would be fair to say that I’d love to give you a hard and fast date for that. I can’t. We have spoken earlier about one thing that it is difficult to factor in. You’re penalized by increased demand when you improve services. Obviously, I mean that tongue in cheek. This isn’t meant to be penal. This means we’re helping more people, which is a good thing.
It’s attempting to keep up, and it is not an exact science. Our stated goal is 25 to one and that’s where we would like to be.
We are doing other things than hiring more case managers. One of them is nudging more people to use My VAC Account and get more signed up for some of the more rudimentary work. In no way do I mean to imply that these things should be automated. Many of these services have to be given out with a great deal of nuance and skill. For some of the more rudimentary stuff we can get that done on My VAC.
Also, the reward, as many veterans have seen, is direct deposit. When they are entitled to benefits, there is much faster delivery of those benefits.
Gen. Natynczyk: I wish we had all of those front-line folks yesterday.
As the minister indicated, when we did the projections a few years ago on the ratios, we were expecting that by 2020 we would have slightly under 10,000 case-managed veterans. Here we are in 2018, and we have about 13,000 case-managed veterans, which is an indication of the additional claims that have come in and the number of veterans leaving the Canadian Armed Forces with complex needs. We’re in that catch-up mode.
I would also say that we are hiring additional case managers. Again, in terms of the job market and the availability of these social workers and case managers across the country, we’re always looking for the right people who have the experience to provide the services.
It’s not only case managers. We have great folks who are veteran service agents who handle many of the issues of our veterans as well. We’re looking for them. We’re looking for occupational therapists and nurses. For any one of these veterans who have complex needs, it’s a team approach in providing them support.
In Edmonton last week, we were seeing some case managers who have a higher level of caseload. We have some who are south of 20 cases. We see the balance as new staff are coming in and being given more of a caseload. We’re going out to colleges to see if we can hire folks straight in, with the right experience.
I just want to say that we’re pulling out the stops, not only for case managers but for service agents, nurses and occupational therapists.
Mr. O’Regan: In using this full skill set and experience, Mr. Natynczyk is sending some of them to boot camp.
Gen. Natynczyk: That’s the other thing. This is really coming from the work of this committee and many of your colleagues to ensure that we provide them the right training. We’ve created a schoolhouse not only in Charlottetown but by mobile across the country, so that when we on-board these new employees we’re actually putting them through a training program.
It has been so successful that we’re realizing that the generations that we’ve hired before have less knowledge than those we’ve just recently hired. We’re actually creating a refresher training program for those who have been around with us for a few years so that they get those same skills to cross-level and standardize the knowledge across the country.
Senator McIntyre: As I understand your answer, there are challenges, so obviously there’s a need for short and medium term measures to be taken to achieve the 25 ratio?
Mr. O’Regan: Yes.
Senator Wallin: For most men and women who have served their country and who are leaving the service, and I don’t mean the ill and injured, I want to switch the focus a bit. This is not a transition back to civilian life. It is a transition to civilian life. They never were in the civilian world. They joined up when they were 17 or 18.
When you have transferred this program over to Agelic, what exactly is their job? I see the translation part because the corporate sector doesn’t understand the lingo, the words, and the acronyms that the military uses, and vice versa.
Do they actually do that? Is it like a headhunting service? This is one of my hobby horses. How do you see this working?
Gen. Natynczyk: I would say the fundamentals such as career counselling and all of those kinds of things. Plus it’s actually coaching and job placement. It’s all the way through from the basic rudiments of how to put together the resumé to coaching on the various interviews and those kinds of things. Then it’s actually, as the minister was indicating, connecting corporations to those veterans who need that additional assistance.
Senator Wallin: That is kind of my point. I’ve been through a couple of these programs stateside in the U.S. You also have to train the corporate side.
Mr. O’Regan: True. At the public service jobs fair at Invictus we met a number of corporations. I was trying to list them all. Barrick sponsored the whole thing. You don’t want to choose too many here, but a number of Bay Street level corporations came forward that were hiring veterans on their side to help translate those services, so that on the receiving end you had people there.
It is tremendously inspiring. There’s great goodwill there, and it’s growing.
Gen. Natynczyk: The minister supported the creation of a veterans of the public service hiring unit.
In the headquarters in Charlottetown, we have a reserve navy captain with a retired sergeant major or former sergeant major who, along with the Public Service Commission, are acting as a resource and a bridge to those veterans who would like to have a future role in the public service, not only to Veteran Affairs but to all departments across the country. Many want to settle outside of the Ottawa area and work for Correctional Service, Parks Canada, maybe taxation and so on. They are acting as a bridge.
Senator Wallin: Nobody wants to work at CRA.
Gen. Natynczyk: We’ve had some very successful transitions to CRA. Again, when people are successful, it’s pretty quiet.
Mr. O’Regan: This is one of those cases where the government is being selfish. We have put an investment into these people. They have a tremendous amount to offer. Why would we lose them, given the chance?
Senator Richards: This is an observation about people who might have stayed in the military for quite a while, received a rank that is pretty admirable and then go back to civilian life.
I was in Canadian Tire a couple of years ago looking for 303 shells. I asked a guy to help me. He said, “What grain do you want?” I said, “180-grain”. I looked at him and said, “You’re military.” He said, “Yes”, and he started talking. I said, “Your rank was a captain.” He said, “No, it was a major.”
There’s nothing wrong with handing out shells at Canadian Tire, but it must have been some kind of letdown for him to go from being a major in the Canadian military to handing out 180-grain shells at Canadian Tire.
Is it because he stayed in the military a day too long? When his career ended, was there no other option for him to get a better job, a greater job or a better position?
Or, is it just him? Maybe it was just him and no one else. It seems to me that this is probably an ongoing situation for some veterans.
Mr. O’Regan: I know of a former incredibly able Minister of Finance in the Newfoundland and Labrador government who for many years was a greeter at Home Depot. He may still be there. He loved it. It allowed him to be near his grandchildren. He likes people and it’s pleasant work.
It really depends on what the person has been through. Sometimes you wouldn’t believe what people will look for to find meaningful work.
Senator Richards: As I say, I am not diminishing this job at all. I am just wondering if, when people come out, they are at times given no other option. That’s the only thing I was asking.
Mr. O’Regan: I understand.
Gen. Natynczyk: I would reinforce what the minister said. We all joined differently, with different people. Our service was unique. No matter what trade or rank, everyone had a different war.
That’s my line: Everyone has had a different war, so when we leave our needs are different.
To one of the points I think you’re trying to make here, the research shows that an underemployed veteran is the same as an unemployed veteran.
What the research also finds is that many times the first job for the veteran is not the right fit, but the veteran has accepted it in order to land, to have that security of that first post. Then, actually, a cultural transition occurs with both the institution getting comfortable with the individual and the individual getting comfortable living in that civilian milieu. For some, as the minister indicated, they’re just happy doing something.
I’ve walked through our own department and met with many of my battle buddies whom I served with in Germany, Petawawa and Gagetown doing certain roles. I ask, “Are you happy?” In some cases they are not employed to the level where I saw them doing extraordinary leadership things in the past. They say, “Sir, I am thrilled.”
That’s just it. Everyone is different.
Mr. O’Regan: If there’s an underlying or perhaps overriding theme, it is that this is complex stuff. It is subjective. It is hard to understand one man’s or woman’s happiness. If they identify it then we help them achieve it.
[Translation]
The Chair: Our meeting is coming to a close. Mr. O’Regan and General Natynczyk, thank you for your generosity, your time and your answers. Mr. O’Regan, I will bear in mind your suggestion regarding the pre-retirement course. That might be a very interesting avenue that would help us understand the complexity of retirement. If there are no other questions, that concludes our meeting.
(The committee adjourned.)