Proceedings of the Subcommittee on
Veterans Affairs
Issue No. 22 - Evidence - December 5, 2018
OTTAWA, Wednesday, December 5, 2018
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs met this day at 12 p.m. to continue its study on the services and benefits provided to members of the Canadian Forces; to veterans; to members and former members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and their families (topic: study on cannabis use for medical purposes by Canadian veterans).
Senator Jean-Guy Dagenais (chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Good afternoon. Before starting the meeting, I would like to ask my colleagues to introduce themselves.
[English]
Senator Boniface: Senator Gwen Boniface, Ontario.
Senator Richards: Senator David Richards, New Brunswick.
[Translation]
Senator McIntyre: Senator Paul McIntyre from New Brunswick.
The Chair: I’m Senator Jean-Guy Dagenais from Quebec, and I’m the chair of the committee.
We’re continuing our study on the services and benefits provided to members of the Canadian Forces; to veterans; to members and former members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and their families. The topic of the study is cannabis use for medical purposes by Canadian veterans.
I want to welcome Sylvain Chartrand, Director of Information Management and Information Technology for Canadian Veterans Advocacy; and Raymond McInnis, Director of Veterans Services for the Royal Canadian Legion.
I believe that you’ll be giving a presentation. We’ll start with Mr. Chartrand.
[English]
Sylvain Chartrand, Director, Information Management and Information Technology, Canadian Veterans Advocacy: Chair, committee members, Legion, but most importantly, thanks to all our serving members and veterans for your service and signing on the dotted line, up to and including your life for our country.
VAC cannot interfere with a doctor’s prescription and must honour the payment as it is done with other approved cannabis products, such as Sativex and Cesamet, which are much more expensive than the product we’re talking about right now.
One aspect that is well known is the communication or the lack of communication from Veterans Affairs Canada to the stakeholders for us to be able to inform our members and other veterans.
There was a policy change right after recreational marijuana, which permitted us all products except the seed and the plant. They included, after the recreational law, soft gels. Now you’ve got the leaves, oil and soft gels. They never informed stakeholders, and we were not able to inform our members and the veteran population that a new product, a new form, was available for them.
Research must be done. Let’s not reinvent the wheel. Veterans must have a means to get education.
It’s a tricky medication. When I vaporize cannabis, I have gastrointestinal problems. When I take oil, I have problems. When I take soft gels, I have fewer problems. If I take a higher level of THC, I will have a less pleasant effect after eight or 10 hours. If I take CBD — don’t forget that with cannabis, we always think about THC, getting high, but there is much more sub-product.
CBD, you cannot get high with this. I don’t like the term “getting high,” but you can’t. It’s anti-inflammatory. It helps with sleep, and it’s great. Of course, being very sensitive to medication, I get side effects from this and any other medication.
Again, education. I was left on my own, given advice from my doctor who said, “Well, you can take up to 8 grams day.” Yes, I can take 8 grams a day. I used to do it with magic butter. I would take it with hot chocolate. Do you think it’s really good to take a few hot chocolates every day? I’m going to end up with another problem. Now I’m going to be very close to getting diabetes.
Again, experiences with the use of cannabis vary widely. You have people, veterans, and that is their only source of medication for depression and anxiety. You have other veterans, like myself, who complement this with $3,000 of medication per month.
I should have brought them. You would have been amazed how much medication I take: $3,000 a month, 30 pills a day.
Each individual reacts differently. Each individual reacts differently with the leaf, the oil, the soft gels and the contamination of unauthorized pesticides.
Access to health providers who will sign a script varies greatly from province to province. Health Canada, the doctors’ associations and Veterans Affairs Canada need to have a role in the education with these entities. It’s probably not their responsibility, but they do have a moral responsibility to this.
Access to licensed providers. Oh, that’s very easy. You must be warned that they are so-so unethical, and in some cases, there are illegal activities. There is no doubt, and I know.
How has recreational cannabis affected us as veterans? It has affected us in the most negative way you can imagine. I can’t buy my product; there’s no stock.
Let me ask you something: If you’re on the antidepressant Effexor one week, the next week can you go on Paxil? No, you can’t. It’s the same thing with cannabis. It is a medication.
This has affected us greatly. As you know, if you’ve been taking cannabis or any other medication, Effexor, Paxil or whatever, try stopping cold turkey and see what happens. You won’t enjoy it.
VAC needs to engage with Health Canada to ensure that scripts can be filled from any licensed producers.
What I mean by this is I have a licensed producer and we now have provincial equivalents to the liquor store distributors. I should be able to go to any legally registered licensed producer and buy what I want, what I need and what is prescribed, and VAC pays the bills. If I buy more, well, let me be punished, and let VAC not pay for it. I should be able to go to any provider.
We can’t get our products. The products that were available for medical cannabis are now on the recreational side. Again, we can’t access it. We already had problems accessing it when the recreational law was not even enacted and after enactment we can’t get it. What’s going on?
I don’t think it would be much of a burden to VAC. Maybe there’s a legal issue in veterans going to different licensed producers and getting their medication. We’re putting the lives of veterans at stake here. This is their medication.
Have you seen any shortage of Effexor? Have you ever seen any shortage of any other medication, prescribed by a doctor, which has a DIN? No, it never happens.
VAC has a moral obligation to ensure that proper medication is delivered to veterans. It’s not different from any service provider who does not deliver a safe, required and prescribed service. I’ve intervened with Blue Cross and with service providers who can’t deliver a product — I’m not talking about cannabis — and they took action. I’m very grateful. They were very open and they took action. They should, for licensed producers for cannabis in unsafe products and the lack of availability of this medication, take action.
We need legislation to ensure that, for those who have a medical prescription, we are entitled to it. Let’s remove ourselves from the stigma of cannabis and let’s go on and ensure that our veterans have stable access to it as a safe product. I can guarantee you when I received cannabis, which was contaminated with an unapproved pesticide, I was sick. I was throwing up and wondering what was happening. I knew afterwards that was the cause.
Thank you for the invitation. I hope you know we’re going to make a positive change to the laws in place to ensure the safety of our veterans and, above and beyond the safety, ensure their medication — cannabis — is provided to them as, for some, it is their only medication. For others, it is complementary. It’s not a cure-all. There’s no doubt about that. It may be for some. It’s not for me. I do have medication that is a cure-all for my post-traumatic stress disorder.
Thank you very much.
[Translation]
The Chair: Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Chartrand.
We’ll now give the floor to Mr. McInnis.
[English]
Raymond McInnis, Director, Veterans’ Services, Royal Canadian Legion: Good afternoon. It is a great pleasure to appear before your committee.
I am a retired chief warrant officer and served for almost 34 years in the Canadian Forces’ regular and reserve forces.
I am speaking today on behalf of our Dominion President, Mr. Tom Irvine, and our 270,000 members. Thank you very much, chair and senators, for the opportunity to make these brief introductory remarks.
The Legion has been assisting veterans and their families since 1926 through our legislative mandate in both the Pension Act and the Veterans Well-being Act.
We are this country’s only veteran service organization assisting veterans and their families with representation to both Veteran Affairs Canada and the Veterans Review and Appeal Board.
The Legion’s advocacy work is core to our mission.
Our clear position I’d like to share with you today is that Canada needs immediate and increased research into the use of medical marijuana, including its use to treat medical conditions faced by our military veterans.
We are particularly concerned with the lack of medical research on the use of cannabinoid-based therapy for our veterans with post-traumatic stress disorder. We first sent a letter to the Minister of Veterans Affairs and the Minister of National Defence in 2016 to request the government take immediate action to conduct and fund research in this area.
We have heard at various stakeholder summits successful stories from veterans who are using marijuana. This is all anecdotal information with no known scientific research having been conducted in this country.
For these reasons, we were very pleased to receive confirmation that Veteran Affairs Canada will continue to monitor developments in research and clinical practice, as well as conduct its own study, in partnership with the Canadian Armed Forces, on the safety and efficacy of the use of the drug as it relates to veterans’ health.
Since VAC announced their reimbursement policy in 2016, we have only received a couple of requests to assist veterans applying under the exceptional request policy for over 3 grams a day.
The Legion is very supportive of groundbreaking work being carried out at the Royal Ottawa Mental Health Centre pertaining to mental health research that will benefit our veterans — so much so that we donated $1 million in 2015 specifically to support the creation of a Brain Imaging Centre, including the purchase of a PET-MRI machine.
Experts tell us brain imaging is the catalyst for change in diagnosing and treating mental illness. As the only combined PET-MRI imaging system of its kind dedicated to brain and mental health research in Canada, the technology’s potential for treating mental illness, PTSD and other cognitive brain disorders is truly transformational. Better research means better care.
The Royal advised that they currently have 20 projects underway in the Brain Imaging Centre focusing on PTSD, depression, suicidal ideation and concussion, to name a few. They are working to help make brain imaging a diagnostic and treatment selection tool for future generations.
The Legion is also proud to be part of the Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research, or CIMVHR. We will continue to advocate for independent military and veterans health research focusing on our unique demographic and operational experience.
Our continuing involvement is crucial to ensure, through advocacy and education, that any gaps or omissions identified receive the required visibility and priority. It is through participation in activities, such as CIMVHR’s annual forum, that the Legion can monitor and identify emerging issues and research requirements.
We are the only veteran’s organization represented within the CIMVHR governance structure. We also provide an annual scholarship for $30,000 for a master’s level student specializing in military and veterans health research.
Our sailors, soldiers, airmen and airwomen deserve to know if the use of cannabinoid-based therapy is a safe method of treatment for mental health conditions, and of the potential side effects.
Once again, we are pleased to hear that some research is planned, with the oversight of Veteran Affairs Canada and the Canadian Armed Forces. We ask for timely updates on progress and results. Thank you.
[Translation]
The Chair: Thank you for your presentation, Mr. McInnis.
Before beginning the question period, I want to acknowledge the presence of Senator Griffin, who represents Prince Edward Island. Welcome to the committee, Senator Griffin.
[English]
Senator Boniface: Thank you very much for your presentations. I will ask a question of the Royal Canadian Legion.
First of all, I think your emphasis on research is crucial.
I think you would find most, if not all, senators around the table would agree with you about the lack of research.
Do you have any idea of how many of your members would be using cannabis for medical purposes?
Mr. McInnis: Of our specific Legion members, no, I would not have that data. Remember, I’m in veterans services. I look after disability applications. The veterans I take care of do not have to be a Legion member. I’m legislated by the government to look after all veterans.
They don’t have to be a Legion member for me to assist them but, no, I don’t have any data on how many would be using medical marijuana.
Senator Boniface: If I were to question you a question about the 3 grams limit, you probably don’t have that information either?
Mr. McInnis: On how many people are using 3 grams or higher?
Senator Boniface: Or what you’re hearing anecdotally around the 3-grams limit.
Mr. McInnis: Anecdotally, from stakeholder summits, the individuals who have come up to me to since it was announced in 2016 are perfectly fine with 3 grams.
Senator Boniface: Thank you very much.
Senator McIntyre: Thank you, gentlemen, for your presentations. I want to follow up on Senator Boniface’s question on the 3-grams limit. According to Veteran Affairs Canada, the average Canadian who uses cannabis for medial purposes consumes less than 3 grams per day.
In your opinion, do veterans’ physical and mental injuries require more or stronger medical cannabis compared with the general population? If so, I would like to understand why.
Mr. McInnis: I am not a medical doctor. When it comes to a disability or mental health condition, every case is unique. It will be up to the prescribing physician to determine the number of grams necessary for each veteran.
[Translation]
Senator McIntyre: Mr. Chartrand, do you have anything to add?
Mr. Chartrand: Yes.
[English]
We know by the summit that we are less susceptible than the general population in the effectiveness of medication. We require much more treatment.
Concerning 3 grams a day, don’t forget that what is not mentioned is there’s a difference between smoking or vaping 3 grams a day and transforming it into oil or other products. That really makes a difference. We need to generalize things and not think that people are just smoking 3 grams a day, 8 grams a day or 10 grams a day. There are people who have 10 grams a day. When I had 8 grams a day, I transformed it into oil.
The veterans’ population is a very unique population. Like I said before, we don’t respond in the same way as the civilian population. We have multiple traumas, both physical and psychological. We need multiple therapies. That was said at the summit.
Whether it’s 3 grams, or 5, 10 or whatever, it’s really up to the doctor to decide. Let’s not forget there are other methods. There are soft gels, oil, et cetera. If you transform 10 grams of cannabis, you need 10 grams to transform it into something that is manageable and able to take.
We need to be informed about this.
Senator McIntyre: Mr. McInnis, I agree with the comments you’ve made on research.
You also mentioned the issue of PTSD. In the testimony we have heard so far, the consensus is that neither cannabis nor other prescription drugs can cure post-traumatic stress disorder. They alleviate the symptoms.
The issue that divides the witnesses is whether the use of medical cannabis facilitates or hampers participation in psychotherapy to heal PTSD. I’d like to have your views on that, please.
Mr. McInnis: To me, it’s another tool in the toolbox for our veterans. From reading the previous testimony of people who have appeared before the committee, we had doctors who said exactly what you just said, and we have had other doctors who said it does help. More so, one specialist said it helps more with the chronic pain and not so much on mental health.
That’s why we need more and better research in this country, so we can get to the bottom of it. If medical marijuana is going to be another tool in the toolbox, make sure it’s helpful for our veterans.
Also, what are the long-term effects? Many veterans are taking not only medical marijuana but other prescribed drugs. I don’t think there’s a pharmacist in this country who can tell you the consequences of mixing drugs together at this time, because there is no DIN, because marijuana is not a drug; it’s a plant.
Like I said, we’re not medical doctors, but we do believe in research. Research informs policy. It’s very important for us. If we’re going to be prescribing and paying for — it’s nothing to do with financial payment for me — but if we’re going to be prescribing and paying for a treatment tool — another tool in that toolbox — let’s make sure we’re not doing more harm down the road.
Senator Richards: Thank you for coming and for sharing your time and stories with us.
I think research is needed, too. There doesn’t seem to be any one uniform effect; every day could be different. If you’re smoking every day, it depends on what product you’re getting on that day and the effect you have. Some of these effects are detrimental to health.
You said, sir, that the gel you found was better than toking or the oil. Has there been research done to make the effect more uniform for veterans so they don’t have “bad experiences” — or less bad experiences. Has there been any research into that?
Mr. Chartrand: Probably not, but was there any research done when I took Effexor, when I had laid my feet on the couch and saw my feet moving? It was all psychological.
Has there been any research done with the 30 pills that I can take? No. Is there research done about everything — the combination? No.
It’s very complex. It’s not only cannabis. It’s all other medications. We are multi-pharmaceutical consumers. No one knows the effects of all of this.
Will we be able to? No — no one. I could vaporize CBD maybe just one day, because I’m a bit more tired or less tired, and I’m going to have a different effect. It’s the same thing with the other medications; it is no different.
Senator Richards: There is no difference. Thank you.
[Translation]
The Chair: Before we move on to the next round of questions, Mr. Chartrand, I have a few questions for you. In your presentation, you mentioned that you take about 30 pills a day in addition to cannabis in different forms. You said that you didn’t necessarily have the information regarding the use of all this, particularly cannabis, and that you weren’t informed of the consequences. The little information that you received came from your doctor.
If you had a recommendation for the committee regarding the Department of Veterans Affairs, wouldn’t it be to state that people need a minimum amount of information? Our doctors will often recommend a medication, but will warn us that it could affect the kidneys or increase blood pressure.
You said that you take many medications and that you often don’t know the consequences. I think that doctors are responsible for informing their patients of the side effects. I understand that the issue is complex, but what would you recommend to our committee to improve the situation with regard to the use of medications? I know that it isn’t easy.
Mr. Chartrand: No, it isn’t easy. When it comes to cannabis use, the only way to obtain information is by conducting research. For example, we could determine the side effects of a given amount of THC on concentration. It’s the same thing with CBD. We’ll find the solution by conducting research, and it’s crucial. It’s no different from any other medications prescribed to me. In other words, the doctors won’t tell me more than to be careful with this or that. Who should be the link between all these organizations? I think that it should be up to the Department of Veterans Affairs.
I agree that the issue is very complex. Research should be conducted and guides should be suggested. The first time that I received my medication in the mail, I didn’t even know what do to with it. I knew nothing, absolutely nothing. Yes, the doctor did provide information. However, cannabis prescriptions are very new for doctors. They may have a little more information than we do, but it’s all new. We need more information. I want to be well informed and vigilant before taking this product. I don’t want to have side effects for eight or ten hours. I need to start slowly. Imagine how complex this is. There are capsules, oil, dried cannabis and cannabis that can be consumed. It’s more complex than any other medication on the market.
The Chair: When you received the medication in the mail, was there any documentation on the product to explain how to use it?
Mr. Chartrand: Health Canada determined that there should be documentation. The suggestion was to start slowly with capsules, then to move on to dried cannabis or oil, and so on. There were some instructions, but slightly fewer instructions for dried cannabis.
The Chair: Mr. McInnis, do you have anything to add?
[English]
Mr. McInnis: One of the reasons why we invested and donated to the Royal Ottawa is they are well known for their mental health research. Last year VAC partnered with them in the Centre of Excellence.
We’re hoping, with the PET-MRI, the brain clinic, that down the road we’ll stop with the good research — when I said better research and care, we’ll stop doing the trial-and-error method of how we are going to prescribe for anyone with a mental health condition.
One of the attributes of so many good researchers at the Royal Ottawa is they will be sharing their knowledge on knowledge transfer not only in Canada but internationally.
When we say “research,” it has to be better research and, just like mental health 15 years ago, no one talked about it. Now that we are going into the medicinal marijuana, in a few more years it will not even be a topic of conversation. We need to get research, funding and we need to start now.
[Translation]
The Chair: Before the second round of questions, I have another question for you. Aren’t you worried that, with the legalization of recreational cannabis, some veterans may be tempted to use recreational cannabis in some way, in addition to prescribed cannabis? My question is for our two guests. Maybe some veterans would also be tempted to use recreational cannabis.
Mr. Chartrand: Maybe, but it would probably be to acquire the medication that they can’t obtain through the use of medical cannabis. This is happening now. Medical cannabis is being switched to recreational cannabis. I don’t think that the veterans will go looking for more. I have no doubt about the integrity of our veterans.
If licence holders aren’t able to give us the product, we may turn to recreational cannabis, which is also completely legal.
[English]
Senator Griffin: My first question relates to women veterans. I know there are fewer women in the Armed Forces than there are men; therefore, I’m assuming there is less research done on women veterans with regard to the use of medical marijuana. Do you know if that is the case?
Do women veterans have any particular barriers to accessing medical marijuana? Do either of you know of those two issues?
Mr. McInnis: I will speak on the research part. We don’t have research for men at the moment; so I will say, no, we don’t have research for women either. In reviewing the past testimonies, I learned something new. I didn’t realize, in this country, that most testing done when they are testing drugs is done on men only; that pretty well sums that up.
As far as barriers, there are a lot of barriers. I grew up in the era, when joining the military, where I didn’t talk about marijuana. We walked away from people who did for a reason. Now it is a different landscape. We saw the effects of what medical marijuana can do for our soldiers. In this our country, it’s now a legal drug.
The only barrier, I would say, for a veteran or civilian woman is if she is a mother, and she doesn’t want to let her family know. As far as procuring it, I have no idea. I know a few of the veterans who approached me about starting the process, when their own family doctor did not approve of signing over a referral letter, they went online and had it within a week from someone else. It’s available.
Mr. Chartrand: I don’t think there are any barriers to access for women in particular, but I would agree with the Legion. We’ve known from the summit there are characteristics from men, women, the general population. We are a segment that is completely separate from the population.
Yes, there are differences, from what I have seen and heard, from the way a treatment will react to someone who is a woman and a man. Yes, there needs to be more research, women included. Yes, we all react differently from the general population. Within our groups we all react differently. Each and every one of you would react differently to the same medication from day to day.
After the summit, which was an extraordinary summit, especially from the information given by the Chief of Defence Staff, I am amazed how complex the veterans’ file is. It is very complex.
Senator Griffin: Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator McIntyre: As you know, two markets exists. They are the medical cannabis market and the legal recreational market. As you said, Mr. Chartrand, the existence of these two markets obviously creates shortages for patients who use medical cannabis.
That said, my question is as follows. Do you believe that Health Canada should set quotas to require licensed cannabis producers to allocate some of their production to the medical market? Do you have any other recommendations for the federal government?
Mr. Chartrand: Yes, absolutely. Health Canada must enact legislation to ensure a market share, a quantity of products. We know what products veterans buy. The health of our veterans is at stake. If they can’t be given the products that they need and that provide them with many benefits, they’ll turn to the black market, where cannabis costs $2 per gram instead of $8.50 per gram. However, the cannabis is laced with fentanyl. Health Canada has a moral responsibility to veterans. It must enact legislation and ensure that service providers make products available to our veterans. Do we want our veterans to turn to the black market and consume cannabis laced with all sorts of products, as is the case now, and die from it? I hope not.
Senator McIntyre: Under the new reimbursement policy in effect since 2016, veterans who wish to use more than three grams of cannabis per day can apply to VAC for recognition of exceptional circumstances. Do you have any recommendations regarding the department’s exceptional circumstance recognition process?
Mr. Chartrand: At this time, I think that the department has made some improvements. At one point, if we had a psychological or physical condition, the department required two reports to authorize more than 3 grams. If my memory serves me correctly, I think that the department split this up. If someone has a psychological and physical disorder, a specialist may ask to increase the dose, which is an improvement. Previously, the veterans community ended up with two reports, one from a specialist and the other from a psychiatrist. Very few psychiatrists produce reports recommending more than 3 grams. However, general practitioners and specialists will do so because the benefits of cannabis are better known. For instance, Sativex is a cannabis derivative and has a DIN, a drug identification number. The product is used for pain relief and as part of chemotherapy treatments. We know the physical benefits.
Mr. McInnis: We’ve received two requests for assistance from veterans.
[English]
Senator McIntyre: Mr. McInnis, would you like to elaborate regarding VAC’s exceptional approval process?
Mr. McInnis: Since 2016, I have had only two requests in Dominion Command to assist veterans with that, and that was just advising them where to go to get the paperwork done. They were successful.
I would state the policy is fine as it is right now. I would not go beyond the 3 grams a day. From what we have seen, from the limited research and Health Canada stats out there, 3 grams is fine.
There is a process in place if you need to go higher. There is a process in place for the applicable specialist. I will agree with Sylvain that across the country we have limited resources for specialists. Again, veterans are pretty keen. There are people in Eastern Canada, from what I understand, skyping to get approvals. They’re doing that.
My numbers could be incorrect here: I think there are over 7,500 veterans who have a prescription for medical marijuana. Of that total, I believe it’s just under 10 per cent who are over the 3 grams up to 10 grams.
The policy is working. Until we get more research to determine where we will go and what will happen or what the long-term effects are, I would say remain status quo. I definitely would not go below the 3 grams a day. The people who have spoken to me anecdotally, they are hurting badly, and 3 grams of oil for them a day is fine. They won’t go over that. The policy that’s in place now, we can work with that.
Senator Boniface: This committee has heard the whole stigma associated with the use of cannabis and how the legalization process hopefully will make that less of a stigma and open the door for research. When you refer to your research, would you go as far to say that the goal should be to see cannabis as a verified medical treatment — putting the priority of the research on the medical treatment and its effectiveness? What are your views?
Mr. McInnis: I will agree. Like all stigma, it takes a long time to get those barriers down, whether it’s legalized or recreational use. I don’t think that will change for the veteran. We don’t talk about our medications to each other unless we know it will help somebody else, and we do that in private. A lot of people don’t disclose medical marijuana to their family members. If they have younger kids, they certainly don’t. It’s up to each individual.
I believe that in the future we will be talking about this if the research approval comes through. That’s why we need random control trials. Like Sylvain said, every case is different. You need to get those random control trials in and follow them to find out what will happen. It may take a while. It will take money, of course. When I talk about tools in a toolbox, that’s what it will be. It’s another tool. It’s not going to cure. It does alleviate the pain.
Senator Boniface: Specifically your example, if you were in a position in need of this for medical treatment, we would hope it will come to a day when it is no different than if you have to take heart medication, if in fact it’s a verified treatment.
Mr. McInnis: Correct.
Mr. Chartrand: You will never be able to get cannabis-verified research. It is too complex. Leaf, oil, soft gels, CBN, CBD, THC — it’s almost impossible. There are so many components to this. It’s almost impossible. You will get some baselines, but you can never get all of the subcomponents of marijuana verified. It is almost impossible.
Senator Boniface: But we will make progress by learning more?
Mr. Chartrand: Absolutely. There’s no doubt about that.
[Translation]
The Chair: If there are no further questions, I’ll take the opportunity to thank our two witnesses, Mr. Chartrand and Mr. McInnis. Your presentations will be very useful for the preparation of our report.
(The committee adjourned.)