Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 11 - Evidence - Meeting of June 4, 2012
OTTAWA, Monday, June 4, 2012
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 5:05 p.m. to study CBC/Radio-Canada's obligations under the Official Languages Act and some aspects of the Broadcasting Act, as well as the use of the Internet, new media and social media and the respect for Canadians' language rights.
Senator Maria Chaput (Deputy Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: I call the meeting to order.
I would like to welcome you to this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. I will introduce myself: I am Senator Maria Chaput from Manitoba, and I am the committee chair. Before introducing the witnesses appearing today, I would ask the committee members to introduce themselves.
Senator Comeau: Senator Gerald Comeau, from Nova Scotia.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Suzanne Fortin-Duplessis, from Quebec.
Senator Poirier: Senator Rose-May Poirier, from New Brunswick.
Senator Tardif: Claudette Tardif, from Alberta.
Senator Segal: Hugh Segal, from Ontario.
The Chair: The committee is continuing its studies on the use of the Internet, new media and social media and the respect for Canadians' language rights and on CBC/Radio-Canada's obligations under the Official Languages Act and some aspects of the Broadcasting Act.
The committee is interested in the point of view of francophone arts and culture organizations in the context of its two studies, and we are pleased to welcome three representatives from the Fédération culturelle canadienne-française.
We have with us Marie-Claude Doucet, president, Éric Dubeau, executive director of the Collège Éducacentre, and Simone Saint-Pierre, chief of communications.
Thank you for accepting the invitation to appear before the committee. A representative for the Alliance des producteurs francophones du Canada was supposed to appear today but was not available. I think you arranged with the alliance's representative to say a few words on its behalf.
Please go ahead with your presentation, and the senators will ask questions afterwards.
Marie-Claude Doucet, President, Fédération culturelle canadienne-française: Madam Chair, as you mentioned, I am here today with Éric Dubeau, executive director of the Collège Éducacentre, and Simone Saint-Pierre, chief of communications of the FCCF, who will help me during the period of questions.
Thank you for taking the time to hear the position of our organizations on your two topics of study, CBC/Radio-Canada and the use of the Internet, new media and social media in the context of the respect of the language rights of Canada's official language minorities.
The FCCF is a national organization, and its mission is to promote the cultural and artistic expression of Acadian and francophone communities. It brings together representatives of national groups in theatre, publishing, singing, music, media arts, visual arts and one broadcasting network group, as well as representatives from 11 provinces and territories in Canada dedicated to cultural development.
The FCCF also represents two alliances: one that groups together three regional performing arts broadcasting networks, and one for the Canadian francophonie radio communities.
The FCCF includes 22 member organizations and speaks on behalf of some 3,000 artists, 33 community radio stations, 150 arts and cultural development organizations working in over 250 francophone and Acadian communities across the country.
For over 35 years, the FCCF has been representing the points of view and the voices of a pan-Canadian network of organizations committed to cultural and artistic development from Moncton to Vancouver and from Windsor to Yellowknife.
We have read the mandate and objectives of your studies. First, we will respond briefly to your questions on CBC/ Radio-Canada and, then, to your questions on the Internet and social media.
First, though, let us recall that, for a number of our communities, the only conventional television station available in French is Radio-Canada. Radio-Canada's regional stations play an important role in the development of our communities by creating partnerships, among other things. For example, some stations sign on as producers and broadcast shows, arts and culture projects and neighbourhood events that are significant for the community. A number of these partnerships have directly benefited the artists by providing them greater promotion and visibility of their work in the media regionally and sometimes even interprovincially and nationally.
What comes to mind includes the broadcast of Gala des prix Trille Or, the show Des rencontres qui chantent and the performance of Les Éloizes, and those are just a few of the events that directly profited from those partnerships. The partnerships with independent producers are also beneficial to the development of the entire franco-Canadian cultural industry, and particularly to the development of television production. Moreover, let us note that these partnerships encourage us to keep artists and cultural workers in our communities and prevent the exodus of talent to the large centres, an issue that is particularly problematic in the Canadian francophone community.
The positions created by the various regional Radio-Canada stations enable francophones to work in French in the regions, where it is sometimes difficult to find a job in French.
In addition, these positions are often held by young people and, as a result, these jobs are also an opportunity to train the next generation. Producers working in our communities are the first artists to participate fully in diversifying regional programming by producing content that is reflected in the communities served.
In fact, independent producers in our regions enjoy strong regional roots and significant public support. The SRC, the producers and the government have a vested interest in maintaining the partnerships already developed since Canadians are demanding more and more high-quality local content and since the partnerships are a step in the right direction for the production of content that is both high-end and reflective of our communities.
Although the partnerships have already been developed, they are fragile. To stabilize those partnerships and safeguard their future, it would be good to establish standards requiring the SRC to create partnerships, which is what we wanted to recommend to the CRTC a few weeks ago during our appearance to renew the LPIF.
We think it seems necessary for the cultural development of our communities that francophones throughout Canada see themselves on the small screen, in documentaries that demystify the issues specific to Canadian francophonie and in television series that focus on the talents in our communities or on local news that strongly reflect our communities.
Broadcasting many types of programs encourages the diversity of voices that francophones have access to in Canada. Of course, work on regional stations is well under way, but it must continue.
Everything, or almost everything, remains to be done to create content that reflects the reality of our communities in the network programs produced in Montreal.
Please allow us now to share with your our reaction to the action plan that Radio-Canada presented after the federal budget cuts were announced in March 2012.
First, let us point out that we are delighted that Radio-Canada is maintaining the objective it set out in its 2010-2015 strategic plan to invest more in the regions. However, Radio-Canada has already announced that it intends to review its role with respect to the cultural partnership that we just mentioned. That could drastically reduce the broadcasting of concerts and have a harmful effect on the broadcasting of works by franco-Canadian artists, particularly emerging artists.
In fact, the cuts in the regions will account for only 20 per cent of the cuts. We still have some concerns that we would like to bring to your attention and that we hope to illustrate with two specific cases.
First, in Saskatchewan, we know that, this year, the Conseil culturel fransaskois did not get its partnership agreement with Radio-Canada signed to broadcast certain shows and a musical gala.
In the past, this agreement was systematically renewed in March every year. In Saskatchewan, we have also learned that Radio-Canada Saskatchewan's only francophone station for regional communications will disappear because of the budget restrictions announced on March 29. And rumours are circulating that the station is trying to sell its mobile studio for recording programs remotely.
In light of these bits of information that continue to trickle in, we are eagerly awaiting specifics that will help us better understand the extent of the damage stemming from implementing the cuts on regional stations.
The second case we would like to tell you about is a situation in Yellowknife. A member of the FCCF, the Association franco-culturelle de Yellowknife is responsible for an analogue antenna that broadcasts the Radio-Canada signal in that part of the country. A new antenna is needed to meet the new digital standards imposed by the CRTC. This small association has neither the technical nor the financial wherewithal to install the antenna.
Radio-Canada's plan for budget cuts means that the move to digital antennas will be slow. Since it is in a remote area and since the francophone market is small, Radio-Canada is slow to provide concrete support to the Yellowknife association.
You will understand that we think that it would be deplorable if francophones in the north did not have access to a digital signal, as listeners in Canada's various other regions do.
We could go on about Radio-Canada, but now we would like to talk to you about the Internet, new media and new technologies, as well as some of the impacts of digitization on arts and culture.
First, let us say that the effect of digitization on arts and culture is being felt at all points on the cultural continuum: during creation, broadcast, distribution and reception of the work by the public. So we can say that all stakeholders in the cultural continuum are involved in one way or another in this technological revolution.
Before giving you a few specific examples of how our members are using the Internet and the challenges they are encountering, we would first like to make a few general observations. As you know, the World Wide Web continues to be dominated by English, and it is sometimes difficult to assert yourself as a minority and to distinguish yourself as a francophone in this sea of information. This is especially true in that many of the organizations we work with have few financial and human resources to dedicate to it. It is a big challenge because the Web is growing quickly and it is difficult to follow all the new trends. As soon as new strategies are developed, they quickly become outdated, sometimes even before they have been fully implemented.
Training human resources capable of responding in French to all the demands of technological innovations needed to be on the Web is also a daily challenge that our arts and culture organizations face. This shortage has only gotten worse since the francocommunautés virtuelles program was ended in 2008, and the Canada interactive fund was abolished, which happened recently as a result of the cuts announced in the March 29 budget.
Without funding from those programs, it will be almost impossible for the organizations to keep up with the world of new media and to continue to be present on the Web, social networks and mobile applications. Furthermore, rolling out multiplatform content is another challenge, both for organizations and artists.
Last year, the Conseil provincial des sociétés culturelles du Nouveau-Brunswick launched a virtual ticket office as a result of funding from the Canada interactive fund, among other things. But given that the program has been abolished, this wonderful initiative will not receive support in the future. The first implementation phase has been completed, but without ongoing support, the future of this tool, which is very useful for the artists, broadcasters and residents of New Brunswick, is in no way guaranteed.
We are touching here on a critical issue for the stakeholders in arts and culture in francophone Canada. To create strategic projects, which have a lasting impact and true multiplier effects, it is important to be able to count on public support at various stages of the project. As a result, the developers of these projects have to be able to count on stable, ongoing and sufficient funding, without which the best efforts will be doomed to failure, despite their expertise and dedication.
The Web is a collaborative platform that sometimes makes it possible to reduce the isolation of our communities and that ensures that artists and cultural stakeholders can establish an ongoing and active dialogue with their audience. For some, the Web encourages innovative and more accessible practices, especially with respect to cultural mediation. Combined with cutting-edge communication and promotion strategies, we can mention a few success stories. Among others, singers Geneviève Toupin and Lisa LeBlanc come to mind. They have effectively used social networks to increase their sales and their ties to potential broadcasters who would buy their shows.
The Alliance nationale de l'industrie musicale and the Alliance des radios communautaires du Canada also come to mind. They developed a website for community radio stations to make the recordings of Canadian francophone singers and musicians more accessible.
ANIM also developed a playlist on YouTube to boost the number of clicks on videos by artists from our communities. These are a few examples that show that our members are already successful at using the Internet and new media to encourage access to the arts and culture of the Canadian francophone community.
But there are still many challenges. Artists must now spend more time on promoting themselves, which gives them less time to create. Singers must sell 20 times more than before to earn the same amount of money, especially if they sell fewer and fewer albums, but more single songs.
The business model has completely changed and now involves monetization of content available online. But in our communities, artists who are members of the APCM offer more than 90 per cent of their product using more traditional distribution methods. This means record stores, sales during events, and so on. This is not at all consistent with the new habits of consumers who buy 90 per cent of their products online. Without adequate public funding to roll out a strategy to support artists and their team, it will be very difficult to meet the new expectations of the market.
Young visual artists, such as Dominique Rey, from Manitoba, who have many international contacts, use the Web, among other things, to keep in contact with artists around the world. A number of artists' centres use the Web in innovative ways to promote their activities. We might think here of the Taupe collective in New Brunswick, and La Manivelle of St. Mary's Bay, that maintain very active blogs. Since the Web knows no bounds, these new approaches sometimes foster the development of wider audiences, both in Canada and abroad. But these are exceptional examples, and we must note that our artists are at the crossroads and we want them to enter the digital world quickly.
As for film and television, the digital era has been affecting production since 1990. However, this sector has only recently been able to see how the Web can shake up business models and practices when it comes to distribution and operations.
Small, more local intermediaries, such as independent cinemas and small video distributors, which were more sensitive to the demands of artists in official language minority communities are often wiped out by the big players. Service providers like Rogers, Bell and Vidéotron are now becoming full-fledged players in the distribution and broadcasting chain, and their business plans do not necessarily have the good of the small communities at their centre.
The vertical integration of the communications industry focuses on this trend and leads to considerable challenges. How can small franco-Canadian companies compete with big commercial empires? The challenge of the multiplatform, which we have already mentioned, is all encompassing and is felt on a daily basis in this field of activities. In fact, producers who want to get funding from the Canada media fund must deploy their projects on more than one platform if they want to obtain the funding desired. The teams of producers are certainly well informed, but there are not many francophone employees available.
This shortage of skilled employees is still more dramatic in communities that are far from the large centres. In arts and culture, we can say that the whole industry is changing. The same can be said of music and books, and basically for all cultural industries. More specifically, for the francophone book industry outside Quebec, there are only 17 French-language bookstores outside Quebec. However, it is through them that we can better reach out to readers locally. We need to make sure that we save some things from digitization. Moreover, that is why the Regroupement des éditeurs canadiens-français is taking part in the "Entrepôt numérique" project being conducted by the Association national des éditeurs de livres.
So this sector has managed the technical challenges with respect to the book digitization, but there is still work to be done to develop mixed marketing strategies to encourage the sale of print books, while developing the sale of digital books. You will agree that it is a real headache with the limited means that some of the smaller publishing houses have.
We need to collectively look at the cost-effectiveness of the whole arts and culture ecosystem. We think the governments need to establish long-term strategies to protect the cultural industries, while preserving cultural diversity. It will be important for these strategies to be applied asymmetrically to take into account the fragmentation of cultural products and the variation in the rate at which each artistic form can be put on the Web. We cannot have the same strategy for poetry, for example, as for novels, which lend themselves to the electronic tablet format, with a more standard layout that is easier to put online. So we need to establish a digital cultural policy that can enable us to thrive in this technological era.
We thank you for your attention, and we are ready to answer your questions.
The Chair: Thank you very much. We will now have questions.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: First, I would like to congratulate you on taking the trouble to come and give us your opinion on this important topic.
My first question is: does the Internet influence Canada's francophone culture?
Ms. Doucet: Yes. It has an impact because it changes all the ways we do things. We need to reinvent how we deliver the works, reinvent how we interact with the audience, among others. Perhaps my colleagues have something to add.
Simone Saint-Pierre, Chief of Communications, Fédération culturelle canadienne-française: Particularly in the creative aspect, interactive creation is being used more and more. The audience wants to be involved in the work. So it is a new way of creating.
An increasing number of films are being produced by citizens who are not necessarily going to meet with a professional creator, but will instead do so virtually. These artistic practices are innovative and require a lot of technological means. As our president said, more work really has to be done to promote the work in order to deliver it and make the same sales.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Aside from rare exceptions, do you think that francophones outside Quebec can really share their thoughts somewhere other than Quebec and communicate with other francophone communities in minority situations? Do a lot of exchanges take place, but not necessarily with Quebeckers?
Ms. Doucet: Definitely. There are a lot of annual events that allow for this type of encounter. It would probably be a good idea to have more of them; it is what we always want for our small communities. But definitely, this type of exchange does happen.
Éric Dubeau, Executive Director, Fédération culturelle canadienne-française: I find your question very interesting because the issue is particularly dramatic in the digital age. In principle, access to the Internet and new media should make it easier to extend the outreach of our culture to other clientele and to encourage access to the culture elsewhere in our communities, whether it is from Quebec, France or the francophonie of the Americas.
There is a great dearth of knowledge about the many other cultures, and even though supply and access have multiplied, knowledge about them did not necessarily follow suit. There are efforts to be made in that regard. There are also a number of unexplored opportunities coming up for us in the future that really are based on a will to have intercultural dialogue and reciprocity on various things.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: My third and last question concerns the arts, to some extent. Have you found that in the world of arts and culture, access to new technologies is sometimes lacking?
Ms. Doucet: As we mentioned earlier, there are gaps in artists' training in these new technologies. For instance, an artist who is developing his or her work through his artistic process in the visual arts has not necessarily received the needed training to work on his production or display it to the public using the new media.
Ms. Saint-Pierre: There is also a problem of access to broadband in some of our communities, in particular those that are located in the North, or remote areas. To answer your previous question, I would say that Internet access facilitates better discussion among small communities.
To quote one example, the Mask organization, based in Ottawa, promotes professional artists by putting them in direct contact with young people. It organized an online seminar with Andrea Lindsey, a singer from Guelph who works in our communities. All of the Canadian schools had access to that, and the effect of this is that it diminishes the isolation of the communities.
Mr. Dubeau: Regarding access, first of all, two things come to mind concerning the National Film Board, as examples. The board noticed that some communities did not have digital movie theatres.
In Acadia, over the past few years, they put in place a certain number of theatres that have that access. I saw a film in Bathurst a few weeks ago. And without investment in infrastructure by a federal institution, that community would not have access to quality digital film projections. I also think of the NFB and the online access they have provided to several of their films, on their website, films produced by artists of the Canadian francophonie. That is very enriching for us. Actually creating our works can be an issue, but access is a very important aspect as well.
For a francophone from British Columbia, Manitoba or Saskatchewan, the fact of being able to access work created by Franco-Ontarians or Acadians is quite a challenge, or that would have been so in another era. It is less and less so if we can make greater and better use of digital technology.
In that sense, the investment in NFB.ca is a wonderful example. We also mentioned the fact that there are only 17 libraries for some 250 francophone communities throughout the country. You will understand that the obvious answer is that there is a problem with regard to access to digital books, because all of the publishers have not converted to digital. But they are doing that.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Thank you very much.
Senator Segal: My first question concerns Radio-Canada. In light of my government experience, both federal and provincial, I think that when governments make budget cuts, from time to time crown corporations or departments decide to reduce services by cutting outside of their area or very far away, because it is easier for them, if they live in Ottawa or Montreal, to make cuts in Saskatchewan, for instance.
Given the importance of the cultural rights of francophone citizens outside of Quebec, are you going to appear before the CRTC to set out your concerns, especially as concerns our francophone citizens in Saskatchewan? Do you have a perspective, an overview of the whole situation involving Radio-Canada and the francophone cultural groups?
As a citizen, I find it strange that a federal agency whose mandate is to serve the francophone population is beginning to cut in francophone minority communities in a province like Saskatchewan. I would like to hear what you think about that.
Ms. Doucet: As we mentioned, 20 per cent of the cuts will indeed be in the regions. So the majority of the cuts will not happen in the regions. However, you have to consider the fact that that 20 per cent can have more nefarious effects than in the big centres. Our dialogue with Radio-Canada is ongoing, and we flag our concerns about that. We have already had a few meetings over the past few months and I know that we are to meet with the CRTC in the near future.
As for the renewal of Radio-Canada's license, we are going to make a presentation and we will express our concerns publicly in that way. We will also do so in upcoming meetings with Radio-Canada representatives.
Senator Segal: But the problem is that when a member of Parliament makes a critical comment, whatever it might be, regarding Radio-Canada, we hear that we are curtailing Radio-Canada's freedom to make its own decisions. But if well-established groups with serious responsibilities are willing to speak out in a balanced way on this, that will help us.
Firstly, Radio-Canada and the government have funded things that really matter. Secondly, you referred to the lack of libraries for the population of 250,000 francophones outside of Quebec. If one thinks of the new literary access sources such as Kindle and others, is the source of francophone books and other resources adequate for the francophones who are looking for books in French that are compatible with the electronic tablets?
Is that adequate, or in your opinion, are the publishing houses not putting out enough in that area?
Ms. Doucet: From my point of view as well as that of the FCCF, the availability is certainly not what it should be. The products that can be found on the market for e-book readers often come from France or elsewhere, and not from the Canadian francophonie. This means that our works are not necessarily being showcased, even if there are books available in French.
Neither does everyone necessarily have these electronic tools, and so it is desirable that there be libraries to meet that need.
Senator Segal: If you had any advice or recommendations to make to our committee to increase access to Canadian publications in French for e-book readers, that would help us a great deal.
Senator Tardif: You talked about the importance, for francophone communities, of having access to content that reflects their reality. The regional Radio-Canada stations, certainly, whether in Alberta, Saskatchewan or British Columbia, play an important role in providing local content, and the Local Programming Improvement Fund is one of their resources. The CRTC was to have made a decision on the renewal of that fund; do you have any news about that?
Ms. Saint-Pierre: I met Commissioner Lamarre and Commissioner Poirier on the weekend at the ARC Canada gala, one of our members, and I found out that the decision will be made public before the end of July. We tabled a brief about that, and I could send it to Ms. Labonté to complete our documentation.
Senator Tardif: Thank you, I would appreciate that. You have given us a great deal of information very quickly, and I would like to go back to some points.
You mentioned the 20 per cent of cuts to be made locally, and you said that this could have a devastating effect on the entire cultural scene if Radio-Canada did not maintain its partnerships. I do not quite understand that aspect. Could you explain further why this could have a devastating effect? Also, to what extent could the budget cuts announced in the most recent budget have an impact on the whole issue of setting up partnerships?
Ms. Doucet: We do not have all the information yet about how the cuts will be implemented; there is still a lot of information missing. The Franco-Saskatchewan cultural center that we are talking about in today's presentation is a way for a cultural council to showcase emerging artists in the community, to make them known to the community, through partnerships with Radio-Canada.
Among other things, this has made visibility possible. Without partnerships, what other tools will the Franco-Saskatchewan cultural council still have to showcase emerging artists and to promote the Franco-Saskatchewan culture? This is just a quick overview. I am sure that the CEO will be able to go into more detail, but this is really a very practical example, firmly rooted in the community.
Mr. Dubeau: That is correct. The rest of the answer adds to Senator Segal's question, meaning that we do not just see the problem in terms of cuts, but also in terms of how the cuts are implemented. It may seem reassuring that only 20 per cent of the cuts are implemented outside major centers. However, 20 per cent or so in cuts can have a huge impact on our communities. So we need to take a look at the big picture. What does eliminating one station mean for hundreds or thousands of jobs at a macro level? When this is the only station in Saskatchewan, we feel that it makes all the difference.
To go back to your question about coverage and partnerships, take the coverage of galas at the Festival du Voyageur in Manitoba or Les Éloizes awards in Acadia for example. The role goes beyond the simple coverage of the televised event as co-producer; it is about co-operating to design and plan the gala and to develop the programming, and Radio-Canada's commitment to ensure systematic dissemination. If that ever crumbles, if the resources the company is able to commit to such a partnership are reduced or disappear, we are obviously going to have only a few minutes of the gala on air or a series of highlights from the gala rather than the coverage or the broadcast of an event that is one of the very few events in our communities being promoted and broadcast across the country. In our view, that makes all the difference.
Ms. Doucet: Just a few simple words: the Canadian francophonie cannot survive, grow and thrive unless it is heard, seen and experienced.
Ms. Saint-Pierre: What is most concerning about this in particular is that, in the plan with the cuts, the community partnerships have been actually identified as something that would be reduced. This will also happen with the Jazz Festival, but they already get 20 broadcasts, so if they have one less, it is not such a big a deal for them as it is for us, since we have five across the country and we will be losing one.
At some point, when the decision on the LPIF will be made public — you mentioned it earlier — we will also have to correlate the two, because Radio-Canada has often used the local programming improvement fund to implement those partnerships. That is why they do not want to sign now, but it is part of their core mandate. And it is not just about the LPIF, but also their programmer. If the LPIF is not renewed or if the conditions are more specific, those partnerships are definitely going to be even more affected. This will further increase the impact of the cuts anticipated in the budget.
Senator Tardif: Thank you for your clarifications.
Senator Poirier: Thank you for your presentation. If I understand correctly, you are a national organization whose mission is to promote artistic and cultural expression in francophone and Acadian communities; you also bring together about 13 different organizations from across Canada that care about the cultural development of the region, and you also have seven national art groups representing music, song, and so on. Since you are in contact with so many groups across such a vast country, could you tell me whether the challenges are similar all across Canada or for all the groups you work with or whether they vary from region to region, in terms of social media and even for the various artists?
Ms. Doucet: We have recognized challenges across the country, in all communities, be they national, provincial or territorial organizations. But the challenges are not necessarily the same. For example, we were talking about ANIM, which has already developed some partnerships. There is also the Franco-Ontarian publishers' group that has established some partnerships to improve their work and their participation through social media and new technologies.
But there are some groups that have work to do. We also talked about the Association culturelle francophone from Yellowknife that faces technical challenges that are completely different from those of other communities in terms of their Radio-Canada airtime. There are some asymmetrical challenges and there are some common ones, such as the training that we mentioned earlier; there are training needs everywhere.
Mr. Dubeau: What I would add to that is that there is certainly geographical but also disciplinary asymmetry, especially in terms of song and music. Let me give you two examples. Over a number of years, Acadia and Ontario have had well-established distribution networks of traditional music. They have booths, they have access to record stores, and so on. In the meantime, this same traditional capacity has not been particularly well developed for our communities in western Canada.
Those two regions will definitely benefit from the digital transition. They have a bank of products they can convert to digital, as well as agreements with artists that enable them to start the work in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and British Columbia; but in the north, that is not necessarily the case. They still have a head start. I am trying to sort of show the asymmetries.
Senator Poirier: Ontario and Acadia are supposed to be more advanced. Is that because, as we go farther west in the country, there are more minority communities or is it because funding is lower for other groups?
Ms. Saint-Pierre: This is an asymmetric problem for organizations. Many of our agencies have no one in communications. We are lucky to have a communications person. In many of our organizations, there is only one person and that person does the general administration. Of course, the person cannot do everything. So then they turn to us and ask us to post things on the Facebook page of the federation or on our Twitter feed.
In communities, such as in New Brunswick and Ontario where you have a larger audience, you can have digital community leaders. But in communities where numbers do not warrant, you cannot afford to share. In New Brunswick, the sharing is done between cultural organizations. Those who really penetrate into social media are those who can afford to have community leaders, but none of our organizations can afford it.
Senator Comeau: Thank you for your suggestions. To go back to the main purpose of Radio-Canada, if I remember correctly, Radio-Canada was designed to meet the needs of all francophones across Canada, regardless of the region, just like CBC had to meet the needs of all anglophone communities in Canada.
Just watch a show on CBC, and, no matter where you are, whether in British Columbia or Newfoundland, just by watching the news and the programming, you can pretty much feel that the broadcast covers the whole country.
This is not the same feeling you get when you watch Radio-Canada. That is what I think, and please correct me if I am wrong. Do you identify yourself with Radio-Canada?
Ms. Doucet: When you watch locally produced programs, the local news, local initiatives, you see it and feel it. Of course, you feel it less with network programs and the national news. We have already talked about this with Radio-Canada. We have to bear in mind that there are a lot of initiatives and partnerships that we do not want to give up on. We feel that this is really important for communities and, because of that, Radio-Canada is involved in our communities.
Senator Comeau: If the first 15, 20 or 25 minutes of national news on Radio-Canada are all about Décarie Street or St. Catherine Street in Montreal or the Quebec National Assembly, why would I watch that when I am from Nova Scotia? I guess I would be interested in knowing what is happening in Canada. I go see my neighbours in Nova Scotia and I ask them if they watch the news on Radio-Canada, and very few of them do because of that. If you do not get into the habit of watching Radio-Canada, and if you are not interested in Radio-Canada to find out what is happening in our country, because important shows like the news disgust you sometimes, you do not watch other programs and you do not get into the habit of watching Radio-Canada. Instead, you get into the habit of watching CBC, and therein lies the danger.
Will you continue to work for Radio-Canada? Radio-Canada should be reminded of their national mandate. I heard what Mr. Dubeau said about a station being cut in Saskatchewan, and possibly in Nova Scotia. That is very different from a station being cut in Montreal.
Once again, we are talking about a national institution. One way to put pressure on us, francophone parliamentarians, would be to cut the last person who works at Radio-Canada in Saskatchewan, and the last person who works at Radio-Canada in Nova Scotia. Of course, there will be a reaction. They are putting pressure on me and other members who find ourselves in this position. My Quebec colleagues do not have that pressure. I like them a lot. Quebeckers are our good cousins, but sometimes I wish that Radio-Canada, like CBC, would go back to the roots of their initial mandate to serve all of Canada. Am I way off base?
Ms. Doucet: Not at all. In all our discussions with Radio-Canada, we have reminded them of their national mandate, because, in terms of network programs, the way things were presented was in fact not doing us any good.
Yes, lack of interest leads to something else. In our discussions, Radio-Canada had a strategic plan for 2010-2015, called Everyone, Every Way. It seemed to have good initiatives, and to reflect a willingness to move forward, to be more region-oriented and to represent the regions better. Unfortunately, with the cuts, although they say they will keep it and move forward, it is a bit difficult to know right now what the cuts and impacts will be and whether they will weaken some of the initiatives they wanted to develop. We fully share your concerns.
Mr. Dubeau: You will often have heard me talk about the "disproportionate impact" of certain cuts. That said, if a station disappears in Toronto or Montreal or Saskatchewan, the fact that any Canadian is losing a job saddens us.
Senator Comeau: Yes.
Mr. Dubeau: The loss of a job in one of our communities does have a "disproportionate impact", however. I think that you have brought that out well. We regularly remind Radio-Canada of that. One of the big challenges currently is to document those impacts and follow up on them. We get information in dribs and drabs. Today we are talking about Radio-Canada/CBC because you asked us about that. There are other federal agencies and bodies that we follow very closely and have discussions with, and we also document them. This impact concerns us.
In our opinion, it seems imperative that citizens and the community be informed of the possible impact of these cuts, and that you be as well, because our impression is that since it is difficult for us to obtain information on the details, it probably is for you too. That is why we took the liberty of providing you with what detailed information we had today.
Senator Comeau: We appreciate that. As for the programs that could be of assistance to our cultural communities and associations — in whom we believe a great deal — you will certainly be making comments in relation to the discussions which have begun or are yet to come regarding the roadmap for the next few years, and if there are programs that came to an end, perhaps they could be reinstated?
Ms. Doucet: Regarding arts and culture, we are very involved in the assessment process for the roadmap. Three programs stemmed from the roadmap for our artists and cultural organizations. The musical showcases were a success, and there were some very good spinoffs. As for the cultural development fund, some good initiatives were funded, but there needs to be some fine-tuning there, regarding certain criteria or subsidy awards, because they did not fully meet the needs of the community.
Regarding books, this involved translation, if I am not mistaken. Here again, certain things need to be improved. This program was not entirely conceived for francophone communities, perhaps more for anglophone communities in minority situations. However, there would probably be a way of sitting down with people who deal with publishing houses and authors, in order to find ways to succeed and really have the impacts we would like to see.
Senator Comeau: We are certainly going to follow those files.
Senator Tardif: I want to encourage you to continue to document the unanticipated or disproportionate impacts, as you said so eloquently, of the cuts. I think it is very important to know what those impacts are. Often we do not know and we do not realize to what extent that can be difficult for a community that already has limited human resources, nor are things necessarily comparable from one end of the country to the other. It would be good to continue that work.
I have another question about training. You stated that there was a challenge there in connection with the use of the new media, since things go so quickly that we barely have a chance to master one technological tool before it becomes obsolete. Were there programs that supported you in training people in the use of those new media? What would you need to meet the requirements and expectations of our francophone population so that it can follow social media also, and reach its full potential?
Mr. Dubeau: The short answer is that there were no programs that involved training directly, and thus none disappeared. The Canada Interactive Fund, abolished a few weeks ago, was a fairly important resource in our opinion, for a good and simple reason: it was a fund which, among other things, allowed us to retain certain skilled people in some communities.
Senator Tardif: Which fund are you talking about?
Mr. Dubeau: The Canada Interactive Fund. In certain cases, some organizations were able to hire people who knew what they were doing, thanks to a subsidy from that fund.
The longer answer would be this one: there may be several emergent solutions. One of these may be related to something Senator Fortin-Duplessis said. She asked about the exchange of expertise, with Quebec among others. There is a great deal of expertise in Quebec regarding the new media. You will understand that in our area, in the Canadian west, it is much more difficult to access French-language training on the new media, even basic training, than it is on the Island of Montreal. So there would probably be good reason to design a model that would favour some type of connection between someone in Alberta who is looking to learn a skill — be it an organization or an individual — and expertise elsewhere in Canada. That does not exist at this time. We did not propose it, but you asked a very interesting question, and that may be one avenue that should be explored.
Ms. Saint-Pierre: No college or university offers a communications program west of Ottawa. Here there is the Cité collégiale and the University of Ottawa; but it stops here.
Senator Tardif: That is interesting.
Ms. Saint-Pierre: At St. Boniface College, I know that there were three feasibility studies, and I do not know why this led nowhere. We need to see some positive outcomes at some point.
Senator Tardif: Which department offered the program through the fund that you mentioned?
Mr. Dubeau: It was a branch of Heritage Canada, if memory serves.
Senator Tardif: And it was abolished a few weeks ago?
Mr. Dubeau: The fund was abolished. One of the unanticipated impacts you were referring to earlier, was among others the elimination of that fund.
Ms. Saint-Pierre: Rather than being identified as such, it was buried in the 46 million that were cut throughout that department, and so this was not made public. It was the logical follow-up to Industry Canada's Franco communauté virtuelle Program, which was not managed by Heritage Canada, but had performed miracles, it must be said, in helping us develop our digital infrastructure. I do not know why they did not renew it at Industry Canada. Now there is nothing at all, neither at Industry Canada nor at Canadian Heritage. The Harper government developed a digital strategy last year or the previous year, but it is not supporting those who want to implement it.
Senator Tardif: Would that be a recommendation you are making to our committee, that it would be important to see to that?
Mr. Dubeau: The disappearance of that mechanism is an important concern to our eyes. If the committee can intervene there, I would encourage it to do so.
Senator Tardif: Thank you.
The Chair: I would like to come back to the use of social media, the new media. First of all, there has to be access. Second, you need equipment. Third, there has to be training. Then, there is the issue of the available francophone content. When we look at those four points — and there are surely others — what is the real situation of the arts and culture sector regarding access, the purchase of equipment, training, and French-language content? You need that whole package if you really want positive outcomes.
Mr. Dubeau: That is a big question, so the answer is complex and probably multi-faceted. Different sectors and regions would have different capacities in terms of the various aspects of the four elements you brought up.
The Chair: If there is any additional information you cannot give us today, could you send it to the committee? It would be very useful if we could look at all the needs.
Mr. Dubeau: If you are interested, we could try to ask our members about capacity in terms of the four points and come back to you with an answer.
The Chair: That would be great.
Mr. Dubeau: I may add a fifth point, if that is okay.
The Chair: Yes, absolutely.
Mr. Dubeau: I think this is useful as an outline of a game plan and diagnosis. You brought up supply as the fourth element — in other words, what is already available or could be available. I would also add demand. There may be thousands of books on the Internet. It is always a matter of finding a way to inform francophone readers and francophiles that those books are out there, that there are some from Nova Scotia, Alberta, Ontario, and all over, and that they are all worth a look. I think that tackling the challenge in terms of information communication and dissemination would improve access for everyone.
The Chair: Thank you. If there are no further questions, ladies and gentlemen, I want to thank you very much on the committee's behalf for coming to meet with us. Thank you for your presentation and your very complete answers. Thank you and good luck.
The committee will now have an opportunity to learn more about a few educational institutions that use the Internet, new media and social media.
So it is with pleasure that we welcome Yvon Laberge, the Executive Director of the Collège Éducacentre, in British Columbia, and Roberto Gauvin, Director of the Centre d'apprentissage du Haut-Madawaska, in New Brunswick. Thank you for accepting the invitation to appear before the committee. I now invite you to take the floor, and then the senators will ask their questions.
Yvon Laberge, Executive Director, Collège Éducacentre: Honourable senators, my name is Yvon Laberge. I am appearing before you today as the Executive Director of the Collège Éducacentre, the only francophone college in British Columbia.
The goal of my presentation is to provide you with my thoughts, as the administrator of an adult education in a French minority context, on opportunities and challenges social media contribute to French education for adults.
I wanted to begin with the definition of social media. Basically, social media consist of different communication techniques and applications made widely available through the Internet, and encourage the creation and sharing of various content so that Internet users can become actors and authors on the Web.
The Collège Éducacentre was incorporated as a non-profit organization in 1992. It is the only francophone college in British Columbia. The programs, courses and services available at our institution are divided into three areas. We have college education, with about 72 courses. We also have continuing and customized education, which includes education in French as a second language and English as a second language, French for Parents and many other types of training.
We also offer basic education, which includes literacy, and the development of high school diploma equivalencies and basic skills. The college has four campuses to reach a population spread out across a large area. The main campus is located in Vancouver. We have two others in Victoria and in Prince George. We also have a virtual campus. We use social media to promote our distance education courses, especially college courses and some French as a second language courses. We currently use social media more for our promotion and recruitment activities.
For instance, in 2011, we improved our website's structure and information classification. The need to create a new website stemmed from the realization that we were unable to easily make changes to our old website and that our structure did not make it easy for users to find us. The revised referencing helps us generate more traffic. Therefore, since the website's launch on September 1, 2011, we have noted a 20 per cent increase in the number of visits to our website compared with the same period last year, for a total of 49,000 visits. That data indicates that our services are more accessible. We hope that, as a result, our services will be used more and the number of registrations will increase.
I would like to talk a bit about social media's potential in adult education. I want to emphasize the fact that I will talk about the potential. We are not there yet.
At the Collège Éducacentre, we recognize the potential of social media and use all means available to benefit from it. Francophones from British Columbia are spread out over a large area. Most of our students are taking part-time courses while working. Distance education enables students to take courses at home at their leisure. Social media would help make learning environments more interactive and dynamic. Another thing we have noted in education is that the use of social media can lead to genuine lifelong learning because it involves formal and informal contexts. Some of our students take formal courses, develop interests in a specific area and use the Internet to continue their research informally. That leads to an increase in informal learning.
In a francophone minority context, the social media breakthrough also has the potential to increase the number of services and programs so as to achieve a level similar to the one at anglophone institutions. Later on, I will talk about how we can work on making that a reality.
We believe that this may lead to a democratization of training because it makes it possible to overcome obstacles related to time, space and location; it allows for a more interactive and dynamic learning environment; and, in a minority context, it makes access to a greater number of services and programs possible.
Take the example of one of our learners with motor skill difficulties, which make it hard for him to hold a pen. He has made tremendous progress since we have been using the iPad with an interactive application for reading and writing.
In small institutions like ours, there are often only one or two people who work on designing curricula and content. Social media enable them to create virtual exchange communities and help students and trainers broaden their horizons and collaborate beyond the limits created by geographic borders, linguistic barriers and institutional walls. Social media help connect learners with each other and with experts and instructors. That way, learners and trainers can learn from their peers and have access to very specific and targeted knowledge in various areas of interest. That makes it easier for learners and instructors to work together on topics of common interest. In addition, the pooling of expertise and resources is encouraged.
Access to a wide variety of training material in French at a modest price is more difficult in a minority context. Social media allow learners and trainers to access, often free of charge, a wide variety of content in French. Social media enable academic institutions to improve the quality and availability of their learning material.
We have a few success factors to point out. If we want to take full advantage of all the possibilities provided by social media, we must plan adding new roles within the institution. An expert is needed to manage and update the technical infrastructure. Then, we need content and curriculum design experts who can prepare courses and programs using mixed learning approaches. We also need tutors or mentors to provide learners with advice on anything related to using technology.
Using social media tools in educational environments requires a minimum Internet connection speed. This applies to individual users and institutions. That level may not be available in certain rural regions, for instance, especially since not all learners have current technology available to them. Technical equipment quality directly affects the quality of the learning process and even the possibility of accessing training.
Equal access is an issue that should be looked into. A key factor in success is having sufficient financial resources to establish the technical infrastructure and maintain it. In addition, stable funding also makes it possible to hire skilled staff and invest in staff training.
The Chair: Mr. Laberge, time is passing. Could you speed up your presentation?
Mr. Laberge: Okay. Flexibility in terms of funding also applies to funding parties. I will come back to that later.
I think that we must recognize the needs of learners and acknowledge that their level of competency in using new technologies varies. Very often, the younger learners are better equipped than people of my age, for instance.
Teachers' digital and educational skills are important because a generation of people who know how to design curricula lack the skills to do so in social media. There is also a need to provide support for training teaching staff and curriculum designers in the use of social media.
I have a few conclusions — and I will not have time to come back to English, sorry — and thoughts for the future. Social media have great potential to provide more francophones in minority settings with greater access to more courses and programs in French. That also makes it possible to improve the learning process, promote innovation in that process and allow for lifelong learning by institutions and individuals in formal and informal contexts.
Overall, studies indicate that social media have significant potential for improving the learning process. Political decision-makers should support and encourage the use of social media in teaching and training. New technologies are conducive to the development of innovative approaches and learning that help prepare students for active participation in the knowledge society.
Very quickly, I have a few suggestions for the future. I believe that it is important to have a financial envelope with special projects to encourage the development of electronic infrastructures that support the integration of social media in adult education institutions. I also think it is important to encourage all ministries to ease financial criteria and to promote, as a priority, the development of electronic infrastructures and learning approaches in social media.
It is important to support the creation and the continuation of distance learning networks in French, more specifically, the development of the French distance education and learning network, the REFAD. Other networks could also be promoted.
It would be a good idea to use social media to support and encourage learning activities for trainers and curriculum designers concerning digital and teaching skills. It would also be good to encourage and foster the creation and the sharing of new college credit courses and programs using social media. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Laberge. The senators have a copy of your presentation and can refer to it if they need to. We will now move on to Mr. Gauvin's presentation. Mr. Gauvin, you have a maximum of 15 minutes, like Mr. Laberge.
Roberto Gauvin, Director, Centre d'apprentissage du Haut-Madawaska: I am proud to be here this evening to represent a small rural school of about 220 students that serves the villages of Clair, Lake Baker, Baker Brook and St-Hilaire, in New Brunswick.
When I introduce this school, I often compare it to an amoeba, an animal cell seeking food and stimulus. When we find something we like, we absorb it, but when we do not like it that much, we reach out and look elsewhere. I also like the amoeba analogy because we are under a microscope.
Many of our school's actions are questioned. We have been organizing an international seminar for three years now. People come from France, Scotland and all over to see what is being done at our school.
We are asked to innovate, to do things in a different and better way. However, at the same time, the school and the students must always be kept in order, and we often feel torn between the two goals. Clearly, if we want to try to use new technology, we must take a risk. Often, that risk is not necessarily shared by all organizations.
Of course, some significant challenges must be met in education. For instance, students must be able to communicate effectively in written and oral form. We must meet that challenge with our students, be it in English or in French. I would say that our school struggles the most with this challenge.
As far as social media goes, we use blogs. At our school, some second-year students have blogs. Obviously, we are not talking about the kind of a blog a journalist may have. They will mostly write one or two sentences, but they still have a blog. When people know that what they write will be read by someone, they tend to prepare better.
This evening, knowing that I was coming here, I prepared differently than I would have for a meeting with staff members or with three people. We know that the Web's potential is huge. I could tell you about our blogs if you have any questions.
Parents can subscribe to their child's blog. So, when a child writes something, their grandfather, grandmother or uncle — maybe even in Florida — may receive an email saying that Pierre or Paul has written something and they can comment on it. So when we know that people are going to read what we have written, we tend to prepare better and be more careful. Think about the potential of a YouTube video. When we know that we will be posting something on YouTube and that the potential is through the roof, we tend to prepare better.
In addition, students must be able to solve complex problems, and not only in mathematics. Some problem-solving skills are acquired in school, and people use them later on in their lives.
Students must be able to find and analyze information; that is very important. They must be able to think and analyze their learning method, which we in education refer to as metacognition. We do not all learn in the same way, and when we know how we learn, we can obviously move forward much faster by taking advantage of those approaches.
Students must be able to use technologies at their disposal. At school, we provide students with various technologies. In their future workplace, they will have to adapt to new technologies, and that adaptability must be developed at a young age.
We must think about our educational practices. We must explain, demonstrate and practice. As a school director, I feel that a lot of explaining takes place in the classroom. There may even be a bit too much explanation. We must show and practice.
I have a tennis player analogy. If you want to become the best tennis player in the world, I can tell you about tennis, I can explain to you what a racquet is, how to hold it and how to serve, but I must also show you how to serve.
Where should we spend most of our time if we want to become world-class players? On the court. We must practice, practice and practice some more. At school, our blogs are the tennis courts of writing. That is where we want students to spend their time writing.
And yes, they will make spelling mistakes. Some people are saying that the children are not yet ready to write publically because they will make mistakes. If we wait for young people to be able to write perfectly before allowing them to write in a blog, they will never write. Therefore, if we want them to improve and receive constructive comments, I think the blog is an amazing platform for that.
Of course, they cannot write without following some rules. There are ways for them to correct their own work. There are tools we can use and develop with students. If we write knowing that people will read our work, we tend to prepare better, and doing that becomes encouraging and motivating.
When their grandfather congratulates them and tells them they have done good work, that makes their next post very worthwhile. We must admit that our education system is far from healthy. In New Brunswick, about 48 per cent of young people between the ages of 16 and 24 do not even achieve a level 3 in literacy. About 50 per cent of adults in the rest of Canada fail to achieve this level. I think there is work to be done in that area.
Another thing that bothered me about those statistics is that, according to projections, the situation will remain the same until 2031. So that is still far away. There is someone I like when it comes to new technology. I am talking about Mark Prenski, who says that an essential 21st century skill is knowing that, when faced with a problem, we must be able to find the best way to proceed.
Students must be able to do things with others through creative collaboration. They must also be able to improve. When I make presentations, I often talk about my grandmother, Thérèse, who could not believe that an ATM card worked. She could not believe that a card gives you money from the right account. Even worse, she could not believe that, when you deposit money into the machine, it goes to the right account.
However, the world did not wait for my grandmother to be ready to introduce ATM machines. ATM machines were still made. The world will not wait for teachers to be ready for Web 2.0. So Web 2.0 will be there anyways, and it will be up to teachers to adapt to it.
Technology has changed; you know that. Depending on your age, there may be some photos you recognize more easily than others. Things will change further. We do not know exactly where the world is headed, but we do know that it will change and that we will have to adapt.
If I show you this photograph, you will probably say it was taken a long time ago. In this photo, desks are lined up like ducks on a pond, and I must say that should have changed in the classroom. And it is true that there are some local initiatives, where some schools try different things. I could tell you that this photo was taken yesterday in a school somewhere in Canada, and many would believe me because, in many schools, things have not yet changed. Desks are lined up in the same way as in the past. What is worse, parents sometimes come to school and say that they are reminded of their school years. I do not want to hear that comment in my school. I want people to say that things are not like they used to be when they were in school, that things have changed.
Have our students changed? Aside from the way they dress, other things have clearly changed, and I am talking about the way they think, the way they search for information. That will continue to change. Our students are different, and schools will have to adapt to them. We will have to change our teaching methods to ensure that students with different needs can learn various things. I would say that is a major challenge for schools. There is still a tendency to teach the same things, to explain in the same way to everyone. Therefore, we must ask ourselves the following question. What needs to be done?
As a school principal, I think we have to be involved in networking, which is even more important in minority situations. It is important for schools — in my case, we are talking about a francophone school — to establish connections with other francophone schools in minority situations. We must share information with other schools. Back home, we are lucky to have a project with CIDA and Mali. We are sharing information. Tomorrow, one of our classes will talk to young Malians. You are probably familiar with the current political context in Mali, so it is all very interesting. We cannot bring all the students to Mali, but we can bring Mali into our classroom thanks to Skype.
It is important to take the time to share what is working with other people. Internet access is necessary. It is not normal for it to be easier to connect to the Internet in a Tim Horton's than in a school. Therefore, schools must be able to connect. Often, people say that computers will have to be bought for all students. That is not necessary, as they already have a computer at home that is much better than what is available at school. If we give them Internet access, they will probably bring their computer to school and be able to connect and do their school work. That way, we will get around having to buy computers because students will bring the computers they like.
We must experiment and try things. Some things work better than others when it comes to organizational culture. Risks have to be taken, and there are certain areas where more risks can be taken. We must consider educational use. Parents often say that students play on the computer because that is usually what they do at home — they play on their computer. At school, of course, computers are used as work tools.
Therefore, educational integration is very important. We now use that as a reference. At our school, we are currently changing the library's reference documents. We no longer use the Encyclopaedia Britannica that was bought 20 years ago to find information. It is all on the Internet. When I say that, people ask about regular books. There is no doubt that books and children's literature have their place in schools. That will always be the case. The format may change, but it will be important to continue making those books available.
Often, when I talk to university students, I give them the choice between a carrot peeler and a new computer. I ask them which one they would pick if they had the choice. Everyone opts for the new computer. I tell them that they did not ask themselves the right question. What do they want to do with the tool? If they want to peel carrots, the peeler is a lot more useful. Therefore, we have to ask ourselves what we want to do with our computers. People often say that they want to go on the Internet. However, they do not ask themselves what their goal is. I think it is important to ask that question.
When we come upon something that works at our school, we try to become what we call a virus — in other words, we share, disseminate and exchange. If we are all alone in our corner doing whatever it is we do, I think that we become a bit like an abyss, somewhat invisible. Therefore, we must share what is being done.
Canadians with a Ph.D. degree account for 0.8 per cent of our population. I often feel like students are being taught as if we wanted them all to have a doctorate. Since 99 per cent of our young people will not become Ph.D. students, I think that our teaching methods must be changed or reconsidered.
Senator De Bané: It is more than 0.8 per cent here, as small as our group is.
Mr. Gauvin: Yes, but that is not the norm. I often find that, in a school setting, people who want to innovate are thought to be strange and out of place. People sometimes use sarcasm and jokes, but all of a sudden, when they see that things are working, what happens? Some people go along with the innovator and do as they do. With time, people start to ask questions, and more and more of them get involved. We realize that we are no longer seen as weirdoes, but as the norm.
I will conclude by saying that we must believe that the thin rope will hold us up. That is not always easy in day-to-day activities, but when we see the success or our students, when we see them develop and grow, it becomes much easier.
Thank you for your attention. I am now available to answer any questions.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Gauvin. The first question will come from Senator Fortin-Duplessis.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Thank you for coming to tell us about your institutions. Mr. Laberge, have you noticed any reluctance among your francophone teachers in minority schools when it comes to using new technologies in the classroom? You mentioned that your client base consists of adults. Were teachers reluctant?
Mr. Laberge: It was less a matter of reluctance than of a lack of knowledge about how to use media. I think that they are open to new technologies, but they do not know how to use them, and that is why it is important to provide training. University students must also be given access to training on how to use social media.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I would like to know what the success rate has been since you started using social media. Have you noted an increase, a higher success rate, or have things remained the same?
Mr. Laberge: As I said, we are talking about the potential of using social media. We are not yet using them extensively. We mainly provide distance education — at the collegiate level, for instance — and we are just beginning to integrate social media into programs. However, studies I have seen show that there is a better success rate in using social media to achieve educational objectives, but we also see some continuity in learning beyond the specific area of study.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Does the government provide you with financial assistance, or is it just the provincial government that supports your institutions when it comes to online French content?
Mr. Laberge: That is a complex question. At our college, the funding comes mostly from the federal government through bilateral education agreements. That way, we have something of an operating fund. Other sources of funding are students' registration fees and occasional projects we pick up where we can. That is why I have noticed that financial stability is a very important success factor.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: That is why I asked you about it. My last question is the following. I noticed that the Collège Éducacentre had a Twitter presence. However, why have you not opened your account to the public? Earlier, you mentioned that, on your website — not on Twitter, on another website — you have had 49,000 visits. Why is your Twitter account not open to the public?
Mr. Laberge: That is a good question. We use it mostly to announce very selective courses. In terms of promotion and publicity, we previously used social media for very broad promotion. Since francophones are part of the global community, we were buying ads in anglophone newspapers and other kinds of publications. Social media have allowed us to really target francophones in our promotion. However, as you say, the Twitter link is a very good idea, and we will certainly add it.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: It was surprising to see that. Perhaps students were potential clients who could use that, but the public had no access to it, and that was a bit surprising. Thank you very much, Mr. Laberge. I will now let others ask questions.
Senator Tardif: I want to thank both of you for your presentation. Congratulations on the work you have been doing for your learners.
My first question is for Mr. Gauvin. You identified learning challenges and the skills all learners in your school had to master in order to be successful. Of course, you said that they had to write well, be able to work well with others, communicate, solve problems. How does the fact that you are doing that in French and living in a francophone minority community make your situation particular?
Mr. Gauvin: I think that we are talking about a school level initiative when it comes to the use of new technology. We have results we refer to as transdisciplinary — in other words, we follow provincial study programs. In addition to that, we expect certain results in terms of what students get out of using new technologies. What happens in this case is that, when blogs or social media are used, two birds are killed with one stone. In addition to working on achieving our learning objectives, which are of a general nature, we also work on disciplinary objectives.
In addition, I want to say that we cannot predict the future. Our students need skills to solve complex problems whose nature we are uncertain of today. Most careers from 2050 have probably not been invented yet. We still do not know what kind of work those young people will be doing. They have to be able to adapt, to do things differently.
I had an opportunity to travel a bit with Microsoft and visit a Hong Kong university. A lot of material comes from Hong Kong and is Made in Hong Kong. They are trying to change this and move to Designed in Hong Kong. Doing that requires a completely different process; it is a matter of creating things. Our young people must adopt that mode, a creation mode.
Senator Tardif: I will try to ask my question again. I am not sure you have understood. The skills you have identified are skills where, regardless of whether we are in an anglophone or a francophone environment, an educator would aim for the same objectives you have identified. What are the particularities of the francophone situation you must deal with? What has changed? Is there anything in your way of doing things that is different because you are francophones and you live in a francophone minority environment?
Mr. Gauvin: What is interesting about social media is that it allows us to be in touch with the francophone community outside our province. Our home province, New Brunswick, is small. Social media enable our students to exchange with others. I was talking about Manitoba earlier, and that was also in French. I will give you an example that may be more specific. Each year, we participate in the Festival des vidéastes du Manitoba, Manitoba's videographer festival. That is an exchange we do with another Canadian province. Ours is the only New Brunswick school that participates in the festival. That festival provides our students with an opportunity to create a video and then share it with other young Canadians. It is about our New Brunswick identity. We use a different kind of speech and different expressions. When we see ourselves on video, on YouTube, in our work, that is when we often realize that we may not have used the right kind of vocabulary, the right word.
We also have podcasting, such as radio programs on which young people can express how they view their province, the place where they live, because the realities are different from place to place.
I had the opportunity to work in Manitoba for 10 years as a school vice-principal. Obviously, the reality of a young francophone in Manitoba is quite different from that of a young francophone in New Brunswick.
Senator Tardif: Is there adequate access to French content?
Mr. Gauvin: Certainly, it is limited. But the good thing about the Web is that we can create networks. The great thing about Twitter, for instance — all my teachers have Twitter accounts; even those who are not teachers have accounts — is that when you come across something positive, something that works well, you can share that information through Twitter. If I am a math teacher, I can access the best possible sites for math. If I use a network to talk to other math teachers anywhere in the world, but especially in French-speaking Canada since I teach in French, I can access a wealth of valuable information, and it does not cost a thing. We help each other by sharing the best possible information.
Senator Tardif: I have a question for Mr. Laberge. Good afternoon, Yvon, it is always a pleasure to see you. I know you have spent many years working on the whole issue of distance education.
As far as your partnerships with other institutions go, is there any financial benefit for you in all this, or is the benefit more in terms of sharing content and knowledge? We all know, and REFAD said it, that acquiring technological tools is quite expensive, so you have to rely more on building networks and working together. Going forward, how do you see Éducacentre and its partnership building?
Mr. Laberge: Thank you for your question. I see acquiring infrastructure as one component and, as Senator Chaput said so articulately after the other presentation, there are four levels. Acquiring infrastructure is very important, but so is access to appropriate and varied teaching materials. We are in a position to be able to offer 72 different programs and classes through distance education. Building partnerships with organizations such as the Consortium national de développement de ressources pédagogiques en français au collégial gives us access to many other curriculum programs. We partner with 20 or so other institutions across Canada.
Without the Internet and without the ability to network, we would not be able to do what we are doing. So it does not generate any financial benefit directly but instead saves us time and effort in developing courses. So our goal of offering a wider range of programs is key. This is a tool that can help us make that happen.
Senator Segal: I have a teaching-related question for our two witnesses. I agree with the principle that education is a provincial responsibility. I am not trying to challenge that Canadian reality. I would, however, like your views on the difference between the content and the form.
My question may not seem all that obvious coming from someone who is 61 and who learned the classics, history, French, literature and other basic subjects that have nothing to do with a computer from Oblate fathers. Today, how do you strike a balance between the content, which is absolutely crucial, and the form?
Here is one of my concerns. Right now, we are creating a generation of young people who are very knowledgeable about all communication tools, computers, blogs and so forth; all those things play an integral part of their day-to-day lives. When it comes to content, however, reading and writing skills, they have problems, both in French and in English.
As an educator, you are responsible for teaching our children and preparing them for the reality of modern life and decision making. In my view, though, it is important to realize that without the content, the form would not be very useful.
I would like to hear your thoughts on that.
Mr. Gauvin: What has changed over time is that we now expect all children to succeed. Many years ago, students who were not doing well in school or who were having trouble simply dropped out to join the workforce. That reality has changed. Today, you have to have a high-school diploma at the very least in order to enter the job market.
Today, the reality for all teachers is that every student must succeed. When you consider the situation of students sitting in today's classrooms and the wide variety of strengths and challenges that entails, bear in mind that the teacher has to find ways to motivate those kids and make them interested in writing better.
When you are trying to write a well-written blog, the rules of grammar still apply, whether on paper or online. The teacher uses that as a teaching opportunity to help students learn grammar.
I have students who have written something and whose parents have commented that the text was full of mistakes, that the student should do it again. That would never happen on paper. And the reason is that when the work is done, the student usually puts the paper in their binder or even in the garbage. A blog, however, stays there.
This is interesting. People always tell you to start a sentence with a capital letter and to end it with a period. Kids often forget that rule when writing. When someone on the outside leaves a comment that the student forgot to use a capital letter, the student does not understand. They may even be told on a daily basis to use a capital letter at the beginning of a sentence; whether it is Grade 2 or Grade 8, you have to use a capital letter when starting a sentence. That is an experiential approach when it comes to the use of written French, in a context that is real.
That is the context with Web 2.0 tools. The problem lies in the fact that many adults are not comfortable with that. They are scared of the monitoring. A teacher will correct errors and say to him or herself that people are going to think he or she is a bad teacher because the students posted work with errors. The fact of the matter is that what is posted does not have anything to do with the teacher. It has more to do with the level the student is at. Our job is now to take the student at that level and to bring them to a higher level.
I give talks during which I show a text that has been written by a student, but I do not mention the student is in Grade 2 or Grade 3. Someone will say it is not hard to write a text. But when I say that a student in Grade 2 or Grade 3 wrote it, people's opinions change. The objective, then, is to bring the student to another level. Learning how to write.
As I said earlier, New Brunswick has the same curriculum, whether we are talking about Grade 2 or Grade 8, with different levels. That is one way for teachers to drive home the importance of learning grammar, for instance.
Senator Segal: At your school, do you teach children how to differentiate between the various sources of information found on the Web, showing them that certain sources are valid while others may be less credible and therefore lack any factual basis? Do you give them that kind of direction so they learn how to recognize those sources and to reject inaccurate information?
Mr. Gauvin: It is a process, one that is not that easy. Media education has to happen in the context of learning; we teach students about texts. There are certain websites, for example, that contain false information, that make no sense. Students may be encouraged to search such sites. I will tell you, however, that many adults are not comfortable with that kind of exercise because it was not used on them.
Earlier, I mentioned monitoring, risk taking. There are teachers who do not want to go there precisely because they are afraid of falling in a trap and seeing things that may be inappropriate for the classroom. You do not have to get yourself in trouble. There is still a long way to go with the adults.
Mr. Laberge: As far as adult education goes, at the college level and in our population, adults are usually the ones seeking training so they can find a job or a better job. They have a very practical objective in terms of what they want to do. And how we do things for them is one way of reaching that objective.
People have to have a certain level of knowledge depending on the type of training they want to take, and they will work to reach that level. We have those who started with literacy programs, they get their GEDs and then they register for college-level programs.
What we have noticed with the use of social media is that people write more. For example, the youth work experience program Jeunes au travail helps young people who are having trouble finding a job. They may not have had an easy life. Some did not write much. A Facebook page was created for this group, and now these young people access it regularly, sending one another messages such as "I found a job" or "Go here, you might be able to find one too." Obviously, they are short sentences, not essays or anything, but these youth have been found to write more than they used to. That is a practical communication tool.
One thing that is surprising, at the other end of the spectrum, has to do with the applied research being done. A study has just been conducted, assessing the needs of immigrant women in terms of basic skills and family literacy. One of the main researchers on that study was Dr. Bassirou Diene. Looking at the end of the study, you notice that about 20 per cent of the references were paper-based, while the rest were Web-based.
Senator Segal: My hats off to both our witnesses for the tremendous job they are doing to help youth and adults. What would be the most useful recommendation our committee could make to the federal government, be it a change, an addition to a program or a reorganization of some sort that would help you in a practical way with your duties and activities? What would you say is the most important thing we could recommend to help you do your jobs in a positive way?
Mr. Laberge: The answer is always the same. Stable ongoing funding is key for us. Funding also needs to be flexible to take into account changes in learning methods. That would enable us to acquire the necessary infrastructure, develop curriculum and train people to teach it.
Even though this is an area of provincial responsibility, I believe the federal government should have some input. I also believe that is important when it comes to funding. In another presentation, someone mentioned the Department of Canadian Heritage program that was eliminated, the Canada Interactive Fund. We had actually applied for project funding under that program. We have an excellent family literacy program called Chansons, contes et comptines. We partnered with one of the country's largest video game makers, and they were willing to work with us, using our content to develop a sort of interactive game that would be accessible to everyone. We had submitted a project under that program, which was unfortunately cut. I believe this kind of creativity and flexibility is important. We must think ahead. We do not know what the jobs will be like in 30 or 40 years' time, but we have to prepare ourselves with an eye to the future.
Mr. Gauvin: You have done things, you are doing things and you could do things. In 2003, our school received an award from Industry Canada for joining the department's network of innovative schools. We were the only French-language school in Eastern Canada to belong to that network. That provided us with significant financial resources, given that we are a small school.
On top of the money was recognition of what we were doing, recognition that we were on the right track and people were taking notice. In that respect, things are going well.
We have a partnership with National Research Council Canada. In 2004, we wanted to have a school blog. We have had a school blog for nearly 10 years now, but back then, no one did. I knew of a school in Quebec, but in order to access blog services, you had to develop them. I got in my car and I drove to the National Research Council in Moncton to meet with a friend of mine, Sébastien Paquet, with whom I developed a platform from a blank page. That partnership would not have been possible with my school district or my province because they did not have the infrastructure or the knowledge to make it happen.
What might encourage us further is really to recognize people for thinking outside the box. It is often the traditional thinkers who are recognized for their results.
In response to your second question about measurable results, I would say no, we do not have any measurable results that show using a book is a good thing. It is often something simple that determines that if we achieve results, we will receive money. Young people do a lot of things that are not measurable but that should not be disregarded. All of my Grade 7 and Grade 8 students have cell phones. That has not dramatically improved my math scores, but my students do accomplish things that are not measurable as well.
Senator Poirier: You are a small school in New Brunswick that goes from Grades 1 to 8. What makes your mission and your school different from my little elementary school in Saint-Louis-de-Kent, New Brunswick?
Mr. Gauvin: It is difficult to give you a clear explanation because I was not there when the idea for that school came about. I do know the people with the original idea for our school wanted to create a new institution similar to the learning centres they have in the United States. That is why our school is a learning centre. We wanted to provide educational services in a different way. Except, of course, it was a normal public school, and obviously, these big ideas were met with obstacles presented by the structures in place, the union, management and so forth. So it became just a school. We were able, however, to include a technological mandate in our mission. In our school, sports, while we do play them, are not the most important thing; the technological component is.
The members of our staff, our student body, our community, without knowing exactly where we were headed with all this — it is a bit like a journey — took on the mission of developing this technological component. So any school could do the same. Since we have taken on this mission, the nice thing is that when we approach potential partners, we can say that our school mission includes the promotion of technological methods and we ask them to help us. The mission, in my case, was the basis for everything.
Senator Poirier: If I understood correctly, you follow the curriculum of the New Brunswick Department of Education.
Mr. Gauvin: We have no choice.
Senator Poirier: Like all the other schools?
Mr. Gauvin: That is correct, yes.
Senator Poirier: And your teachers are a part of Department of Education personnel, just like all the other teachers in the province?
Mr. Gauvin: As in normal public schools, yes.
Senator Poirier: Were you chosen to be a pilot project?
Mr. Gauvin: Originally, yes. Originally, the idea was to create a different type of school. But what happened over time is that realities resurfaced. As for the teachers, and seniority, they had to hire teachers who had seniority at the district level and not only teachers who wanted to teach with technology.
My work as an administrator is to ensure that the people who work in the school have a personal growth plan with regard to technology. I accept that all my teachers will not be at the same level. There are new teachers who arrive from the university with different ideas, and others who have more experience and who try things. We tell them that no one can do everything, but everyone can do something. What is your project this year?
Senator Poirier: Was this pilot project set up by the province, the local school district, or by you?
Mr. Gauvin: I was not there at that time, so it is certainly was not me. I believe it was a local initiative at the school district level. They wanted to do something different and realized that the road to get there was a long one. It is not as simple as saying that tomorrow morning, we are going to buy computers for all of the students. If it were that simple, people would already be doing it.
Senator Poirier: According to what you say, the pilot project has been a success. When are they going to expand it to all of New Brunswick to start, and elsewhere after that? Are discussions being held to apply your ideas elsewhere, as well as your teaching methods?
Mr. Gauvin: There are two reactions to our school: a teacher comes out of there and tells himself or herself that he wants to try all kinds of things; and there can also be a fear reaction. I think that the methods used sometimes scare people. Some would not be ready to give students the freedom to go and do research on Google.
I often joke to students to whom I used to teach astronomy, sciences, that I found out that Venus was more than just a planet. On Google, you find out all kinds of things, but students have to be educated in its use. If we do not do that at school, students are going to go on Google anyway outside class hours and that may be when they run into trouble. We have to have this approach: learning to use the Internet is just as important as learning to cross the street, for instance. We teach our children that. We show them how to cross the street. With things like Facebook, sometimes we are angry or surprised that young people get into trouble, but did we really even take the time to show them how to avoid the pitfalls? We are going to have to do that, and as an adult, I know all kinds of people who say that they do not go on Facebook because they do not have time and they do not understand it. I agree, except that our young people do go there and we have to force ourselves to see what is going on there because they are going to use it, in any case.
Senator Poirier: You are the only school in the Atlantic Provinces that is part of Industry Canada. Can you tell me about that network? Why are you a part of it? Why are you the only school in the Atlantic Provinces to be a part of it?
Mr. Gauvin: It was Industry Canada's Network of Innovative Schools. The network no longer exists now. The funding came to an end in 2004, 2005. W are the only school to have obtained it because we are probably the only school to have applied. The selection process was very complicated.
The first year we applied, our application was denied. But we rolled up our sleeves and worked a lot harder, and the second year, our application was successful. Often, it is just the process that discourages many.
I must also say that francophones may be a bit behind in the use of new technologies, possibly because they are designed and conceived at the outset in English. We have some catching up to do there. However, there are some very good initiatives.
As I was saying earlier, I do not think we should reward people by giving prizes or money, but I think we need to highlight achievement. One of the reasons I agreed to come here today is that I believe that this sends out the message to our community that if Roberto goes to Ottawa to talk about what we are doing, we must be headed in the right direction. I never miss an opportunity to go out and speak highly of what we do, because I want to educate people about it and about what is new in our approach. We are talking about change and often the comment is: I am not certain that I would like my students to do this. Teachers are scared that they will lose control over their students, they are afraid that students will play games during French class, for instance.
Senator Poirier: In conclusion, I would like to congratulate you for everything you do.
Mr. Gauvin: Thank you.
Senator De Bané: Mr. Laberge, if we look at the teaching corps you have for all of these courses, where would the line fall between teachers who have a talent for teaching with these new methods, and the others? I am assuming that young teachers are more open to these techniques, but there must be some older teachers who are more reluctant. Tell me about that.
Mr. Laberge: You are quite right. I am probably among the oldest, and I am not a master of technology. My social media consultant is my 18-year-old son. I think you are quite right, but we must not generalize, nevertheless.
What we have observed up till now is that we need support at several levels for the use of this teaching tool. Learners need support because they themselves do not master the technology, so that they can learn to use it properly, and when they start to feel comfortable, at that point, learning accelerates. The same thing applies to our educators, they need support. This can come in the form of training, but also through ad hoc support to help them to make friends with this new technology.
Senator De Bané: Mr. Gauvin, talk to me about the limits and pitfalls of this new way of teaching. Considering my age, when I did my studies, these things did not even exist, but if you ask me today, at my age, among all of the people I have met in my life, who was the person who influenced me the most, I would tell you that among all of the people I have met in my life, one of the most influential persons was a teacher I had when I was 14 years old. And so I find it hard to believe that in playing with computers, you are going to find an Internet site that will inspire you, that will lead you to exceed your limits, as a teacher you may have at some given point can do, a teacher who will look you straight in the eye and say: "You can do a whole lot better than that". What would you have to say about that? How can these technologies, in the final analysis, compare with the impetus a teacher or educator can give to a student?
Mr. Gauvin: Your question makes me think of a student in the school whose name is Keith; he is dyslexic. He is no longer in our school right now. He could not produce ordinary handwriting, but using the computer he could write fabulous, incredible stories. So you see the point is not to play with these new technologies but to use them in a constructive way, so that more young people are enabled to create content.
For instance, when a student's text is completely marked up in red after a professor has corrected it and he is asked to produce a clean copy and when the activity of writing is already complicated for that student, if he can then turn to the computer, correct his mistakes and print it out again, we see small miracles. What has changed is that we want all of our students to succeed. In our classes, in any case in New Brunswick, we have a school inclusion policy, and so we have all of the students. We have students who cannot handwrite their texts. Things are not necessarily the same for everyone. I am thinking of one teacher who gives students a project or a roadmap and then the student can choose the tool he prefers to do the work that he has to do.
Senator De Bané: In my province, in Quebec, in the 1970s and 1980s the big trend was: okay, so they cannot write, but let's let them express themselves. And I think that for about ten years students never cracked a grammar book. The catchphrase was that they had to be allowed to express themselves. And then at one point people suddenly realized that they had a serious situation on their hands. Young people have to learn conjugation and the rules of syntax.
To what extent will having these tools in class really allow all of these 30, 40 children to understand everything? If you have a teacher in front of a class with a uniform presentation, he sees in the eyes of his students when they have not understood what he has just explained, and starts over. But on the computer monitor, the text is there, and who knows to what extent the student has understood, and to what extent what is in front of him is comprehensible to that student?
I will give you a very simple example: I pay my phone bill on the Internet but every two or three months, the telephone company changes the site. They have the best designers on staff, but from time to time they realize that people are not understanding how they have organized information on their site and they start over. Why? Because they find out that things are not getting through. How can a distance course, as Mr. Laberge was saying, be as effective as a flesh-and-bone teacher who explains something, and if the student does not understand, can start over, explain it again and see on that student's face whether he has understood, and what he has not understood? Perhaps I am too old and I just cannot get it?
Mr. Gauvin: The method that you knew functions very well with homogeneous groups who have more or less the same skills, are perhaps at the same level and are guided to the next level. The reality in public school classes is that we now have such diverse, heterogeneous groups that we have to find ways of being able to get their attention. Since I do not want to say that we have to put on a show to get to them, I am going to say we need to find ways to meet their needs. In our classes, we have certain realities that mean that the students have different needs.
Earlier I was talking about a roadmap: it is a strategy to reach a larger number of students. For instance, I remember that when blogs were just appearing on the net, people said that this was going to isolate children in front of their screens, but the opposite is in fact what has happened.
The other day, I was walking around the school and I met a student who had been to Quebec the previous weekend and had visited the aquarium there, and I talked about that with him. I know what is going on in my students' lives, because I can go and read their blogs and leave my own comments. The blogs have brought about this kind of openness, this other dimension.
Senator Comeau: I will be brief. Mr. Gauvin mentioned the fact that young people are warned to not completely trust everything they read on some websites.
Mr. Laberge, do you warn your students about that? For instance, do you tell them that they cannot completely depend on Wikipedia as we could in the past depend on the content of documents that were fact-checked twice?
Now with Wikipedia, the information is a little more suspect. Journalists are creating texts that are not of the same calibre than those we were used to. Some people are even publishing articles and documents without even identifying the source. We are creating a society that is relying on information that has not necessarily been validated. Are you warning your students about that?
Mr. Laberge: That is a very good question, and there are two parts to my answer. First, as I was saying earlier, our students have very specific objectives and so very often their training is focused on some very specific skills they will need in their future occupation. We don't stray very far from that.
However, more generally, I share your concern. When I see my son using these information sources, I have the same questions as you do. I think that what we have to develop in people is the faculty of critical thinking about what they read.
And just like anyone who does a scientific analysis, they are going to go and check the information against other sources to see whether what they found is credible and if it is repeated elsewhere.
The Chair: Gentlemen, on behalf of committee members, I want to thank you most sincerely for having come to answer the many questions we had for you. Honourable senators, thank you for your cooperation. The meeting has been long, but we are working harder because we are getting to the end of June.
Next week our committee will be hearing just one group of witnesses, representatives from the Canadian Teachers' Federation and the Commission nationale des parents francophones.
Thank you very much. The meeting is adjourned.
(The committee adjourned.)