Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 11 - Evidence - February 18, 2015
OTTAWA, Wednesday, February 18, 2015
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 6:50 p.m. to study challenges relating to First Nations infrastructure on reserves.
Senator Dennis Glen Patterson (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Good evening. Welcome to all honourable senators and members of the public who are watching this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples here in the room or via CPAC or the Web, including I believe our deputy chair. I say "hello'' to her.
I'm Dennis Patterson from Nunavut. I have the privilege of chairing the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples. Our mandate is to examine legislation and matters relating to the Aboriginal peoples of Canada generally.
This evening we're pleased to hear testimony on a specific order of reference authorizing us to examine and report on the challenges and potential solutions relating to infrastructure on reserves, including housing, community infrastructure and innovative opportunities for financing, as well as more effective collaborative strategies.
We have completed our hearings on housing and are now focusing our study on infrastructure, although the two are linked, of course. Today we are pleased to hear from two witnesses — Birch Narrows First Nation and Lac La Ronge Indian Band — who will speak to us of their challenges and successes relating to infrastructure.
Birch Narrows is located 580 kilometres northwest of Saskatoon and has a registered population of 665 band members, I believe, half of whom live on reserve. In 2009 the Governments of Canada and Saskatchewan partnered with the First Nation to provide funding to build a school on the reserve.
La Ronge is located in north central Saskatchewan. It is the largest First Nation in that province, with a population of almost 10,000. In 2004 the band established a home ownership strategy with a contribution by Indian Affairs and Northern Development Canada and supported by a Bank of Montreal program that assists First Nations to construct and obtain mortgages for homes on reserve.
We are very anxious to hear about both these initiatives. Before we do, I would like to go around the table and ask members of the committee to introduce themselves. We can start on my right, please.
Senator Tannas: Scott Tannas from Alberta.
Senator Raine: Senator Nancy Greene Raine from B.C.
Senator Enverga: Tobias Enverga, a senator from Ontario.
Senator Beyak: Senator Lynn Beyak from Ontario.
Senator Ngo: Senator Ngo from Ontario.
Senator Watt: Charlie Watt from Kuujjuaq.
The Chair: Members of the committee, I know you will help me to welcome our guests, Chief Jonathon Sylvestre, Birch Narrows First Nation, and Tayven Roberts, Director of Public Works & Housing for Lac La Ronge Indian Band. We look forward to your presentations.
Jonathon Sylvestre, Chief, Birch Narrows First Nation: I thank Chairman Patterson for giving me this opportunity to speak on this very important issue.
A little clarification: Our population is 734.
The Chair: Sorry about that.
Mr. Sylvestre: I'll just get right to the text.
I come to speak on behalf of my First Nation, Birch Narrows, and give you a realistic and brutally honest picture of what my people endure as a result of both a lack of housing and substandard housing.
Due to the poor housing situation, we have a breakdown in the social fabric of the community, with high unemployment, substance abuse issues, health issues and low education levels.
Many of our families face overcrowding in their homes with an average of eight people per unit. Due to the northern location we also have higher economic costs to repair, maintain and run these homes.
As the Chief of Birch Narrows, I receive dozens of calls every week from the people in the community, needing things repaired in their houses, and I can only help the ones whose situation is most dire.
Through our funding agreement there is only enough money to renovate a few homes and nothing to build new ones. The amount we receive is only $113,367 in band-based capital or housing dollars and as well as our community buildings.
We have 80 units to maintain. Many of these units are 30 to 40 years old and were built at a time when standards were low. As a result, many of these houses do not meet today's building code standards. Mould, insulation, heating systems, electrical systems, plumbing and poor overall construction are all factors in these houses being of low quality.
Today, as a result of low funding, we are unable to insure any of our band-owned homes. Therefore, if we lose a house to a fire or other event, we cannot replace it. This is a problem that many First Nations have faced for over the past 20 years.
Issues of overcrowding and substandard housing have led to a number of health and social problems. Infants, children and elders in houses with overcrowding and substandard homes have been susceptible to respiratory problems or other sicknesses. We have had a problem with an outbreak of TB. Children living in these houses get sick more often and as a result do not go to school on a regular basis.
Children and youth living under these conditions tend to wander the community and engage in antisocial behaviour, with drug and alcohol use increasing. Poor living conditions force the youth to look for other places to be, and they wander throughout the community all hours of the evening. Many of them do not attend school, and if they do, they attend hungry or tired.
Quite often, little learning takes place. Many of these young people do not finish Grade 12 and have limited options for employment and training. Social assistance is their only other option. They wind up having children and again no housing. This becomes a vicious generational cycle. We will have another lost generation.
Because of low educational levels, addictions and a lack of hope for the future, over 30 per cent of our community members are unemployed and rely on social assistance to survive. In order to find employment, our people must leave the community to find a job in Alberta or the mines. How can anyone get a job and start a family if you don't have a home to come back to?
As the chief of this community, I see this every day and feel powerless to effect change when a basic need and the rights of our people are not being met.
In conclusion, Birch Narrows Dene Nation exists now as the equivalent of a Third World country in a First World country. All the wealth of this country was acquired from the lands we signed the treaties for, and none of that wealth benefited our people. Many of the problems we currently face at the community level are due in part to a lack of shelter for our people. If you believe in Maslow's hierarchy of needs, unless people's basic needs are met, they cannot move to higher needs. Our population has grown over 80 per cent during the last 20 years and yet the resources have not increased at all. We have received $113,367 for the last 20 years. That has not been indexed to inflation, which, if you peg it at 1.5 per cent conservatively, is only worth $84,741 today.
Eighty per cent more people and 25 per cent less money; how do we overcome these obstacles? My First Nation is behind the eight ball as so many are and cannot move forward without more resources. Our very existence is in danger as our very culture and language are tied to the land that we live on.
In Birch Narrows Dene Nation's current situation, it is crucial to get more financial resources to bring our housing stock up to a national standard. Our people need to have their basic needs met if there is any hope of them moving on to a greater independence.
Just to meet the minimum change due to inflation, our band-based capital should be increased to $152,689, based on inflation at 1.5 per cent for 20 years, which is a 34.7 increase.
Further, the band-based capital should be increased by 80.7 per cent to reflect increased population over the same period, for a new total of $275,773, a $162,106 increase or 143 per cent over our current funding of $113,364. This is just to bring our housing up to the national code and maintain it into the future.
Tayven Roberts, Director, Public Works & Housing, Lac La Ronge Indian Band: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, senators, chair. My name is Tayven Roberts and I am from the Lac La Ronge Indian Band in northern Saskatchewan, Treaty 6 territory.
I am a civil engineer and I work as director of public works and housing for my First Nation. I'm happy to be invited here. I'm proud to represent my First Nation, and I'm glad to provide information regarding our infrastructure.
Our First Nation is the largest and fastest-growing in Saskatchewan. We are one of the largest and fastest-growing in Canada. We have a total of about 10,000 members, two thirds whom live on reserves spread out over six communities.
Our current inventory indicates we have about 1,500 houses in our communities. Populations in these communities range from 358 — that's the smallest community — to 2,845 on reserve. The two furthest communities are 280 kilometres apart.
The priority for our First Nation's on-reserve infrastructure is the development of subdivisions with service lots. Roads and water and sewer facilities are managed, but priority also needs to be put on providing serviced lots.
We have built 95 houses in the last three years. By the end of this year, we will have all but exhausted our available serviced lots in these communities. Five of our six communities have active capital applications for subdivisions, but all remain in the unallocated section of AANDC's capital plan. Three of the five communities have completed designs and are tender ready, so they're ready to go.
The following would summarize each of the communities in need of serviced lots. For La Ronge 156 and 156B, which is our main community for the La Ronge Band, on-reserve population is 2,845. Here we have housing applications that number over 200. There are over 200 applications on the waiting list for people wanting to get a house on reserve. We average about 11 new housing units per year, and right now we have no available serviced lots for next year's construction. The housing we're doing this summer, in 2015, will be the last of the available lots that we have, and those are lots that required lots of prep work with lots of cut and fill, and we had to put water and sewer service in from the main lines. We have a subdivision design for La Ronge, and it is complete and has been tender ready since 2011. This new subdivision will provide 83 lots and a new sewage pumping station.
For Sucker River No. 156C, the on-reserve population is 442. Here we average two new units per year, and again no serviced lots for next year's construction. Here we have also got a subdivision design that is complete and has been tender ready since 2012. This new subdivision will provide 32 lots.
For Morin Lake No. 217, the on-reserve population is 558. This is our third largest community. Here we average four new units per year. There are no serviced lots available for next year's construction, and we need to start predesign and design as required to get serviced lots out there.
In Stanley Mission No. 157, the on-reserve population is 1,785, which is our second largest community. They average 10 new units per year there. Again, there are no serviced lots for next year. Here, the subdivision design is complete and has been tender ready since 2006. This new subdivision will provide 53 new lots.
For Grandmother's Bay No. 219, the on-reserve population is 381. Grandmother's Bay has constructed 13 houses in the last three years and has exhausted most of their serviceable lots. They have a couple years' worth left of construction. Here we'd like to get predesign and design started again for future capacity.
Subdivision construction in the capital plan must be given greater priority in order for us to provide housing to our members. If there are serviced lots available, we will build the houses.
I want to talk about capital projects now. The La Ronge Band has 25 active capital applications totalling $72 million. These applications are for subdivisions, water plan upgrades, sewage lagoon expansions, bridge replacements and various school repairs. Ten of these twenty-five projects are scheduled within the next five years, and they total $11.5 million. The remaining 15 projects cost $61 million and are not on the current horizon. These unallocated projects are, for the most part, subdivisions and bridges.
Sucker River and Little Red are the only two communities with bridges, and both structures have been condemned for safety reasons. One was condemned this past winter, and the other one was condemned last summer. Both of these bridges are over 50 years old and require immediate replacement. These projects are now in the capital plan, but it remains to be seen whether they will be approved. The capital committee there is doing their allocations now and we will see what comes out in March with the capital plan. Our First Nation has agreed to provide $680,000 of the total estimated cost of $3.68 million, so that will be our share of the cost.
The bridges are physically dividing communities and creating hardships in terms of travel and school bus routes. Although these bridges have been physically closed off by us, residents continue to cross them. There is a danger that someone may fall through or it may collapse while being crossed. In Sucker River, if you cross the ice over the river, there's a possibility one may fall through the ice. I know this has happened. People have been crossing the river in Sucker River because they can't access the bridge because we roped it off. They will get across to the other side of the community one way or another. They have family members on the other side, or the school is on the other side. Rather than going around, they're crossing the river. These bridges are a safety hazard and a huge liability.
Five of six communities have water treatment plants. La Ronge and Stanley Mission have recently received or are receiving major upgrades. In La Ronge, we have the regional water corporation supplying our water, and the Stanley Mission plant is being upgraded now to ensure the treated water meets regulations. They're about maybe 20 per cent of the way through their capital project right now. Morin Lake and Grandmother's Bay are also scheduled to receive upgrades in the next couple of years.
In La Ronge, we have the Lac La Ronge Regional Water Corporation. We have the town of La Ronge, the village of Air Ronge, and the Lac La Ronge Indian band, which has two reserves. We're almost like one community. There's the town on one side, the reserve, and then there's the village, and there's another part of the band. All the borders line each other, so we're almost all one community. It made sense to build one plant to share the water. We were all in need of upgrading our plants. There was a requirement for improved water quality due to more stringent drinking water regulations, so we got together and found that the water requirements for the region were expected to increase by 60 per cent over the next 20 years. The previous treatment capacity for the area was only 80 per cent of what it should be and only 60 per cent of what would be required in 2027.
Our First Nation entered into a tripartite, legally binding agreement and created the Lac La Ronge Regional Water Corporation in which the band has one-third ownership. This is the first of its kind in the province. The total project cost was $12.1 million. The corporation hired SaskWater as their contract water supply treatment and distribution system operator, so they run the plant for us.
This very large and complicated Class III water treatment system serves about 6,000 people and has the capacity to serve 9,000 people by 2024. This project has resulted in securing the delivery of safe, reliable potable water to our communities. It meets Saskatchewan drinking water quality standards and objectives, as well as the guidelines for Canadian drinking water. The design and construction of this water supply system was completed on time and on budget.
A major benefit of this project was the ability for all homes on La Ronge 165B to eventually have water and sewer connections. The project facilitated development of secure and safe water for the 95 houses that currently have below- grade cisterns that are continually cracking and subject to infiltration from surface and ground water. They don't have running water. They have underground tanks that are cracking and shifting. Ninety-five of our 150 houses on 156B don't have full water and sewer service. Water is delivered by a truck, and sewage is pumped out by a vac truck and then shipped over to our sewage lagoon.
Through this community is the 10-inch water main that services the rest of the La Ronge reserve and also services Air Ronge. This water line is going right down the road. There are houses on either side that don't have access. Then it goes to the other side of town where it services all the other houses there. Last month, I met with Brett Currie and some of the AANDC guys in Regina, and they agreed to fund a predesign study to look at servicing these 95 houses, so that's some good news. We're hoping the capital plan will show an accelerated schedule for this project to get full water and sewer service to these 95 houses.
The Sucker River and Grandmother's Bay sewage lagoons are both under size and in immediate need of expansion. They're not able to hold the waste water for the required amount of time. Last winter, the Grandmother's Bay lagoon overflowed, and the waste water breached the berms.
Stanley Mission's lagoon was recently expanded. I think it was finished last year. The other two lagoons that we have, we're currently managing.
For overall buildings in La Ronge, which is one large community and other small communities, we need new or expanded buildings to address post-secondary and adult education programs, and we require expansion for the daycare and pre-K programs.
The students in post-secondary and adult education require child care in order for them to attend these classes to be successful and to better themselves and their families. These types of buildings are not normally funded, and therefore the band has had to strategize how to finance such an endeavour.
One option we're currently pursuing is accessing funds through the First Nations Finance Authority. If and when we can meet their stringent approval guidelines and we're successful in securing finances through them, our end goal is to construct our own buildings to house these and other programs and maybe even fund our subdivision development.
I wanted to talk about the Capital Asset Inventory System. The department provides annual funding on a unit rate basis for our capital assets, such as sewage pumping stations, roads and buildings, et cetera. However, the funding rate for CAIS hasn't changed in years. The unit rate per meter of road or per sewage pumping station is the same as it was in 1996. Meanwhile, inflation has increased by 39 per cent since 1996. AANDC needs to revisit the unit rates and update accordingly.
Circuit Rider Training Program, the CRTP, is a program where the tribal council provides third-party inspection and opinion on how to properly and safely operate the water and sewage facilities, as well as building maintenance. This is a successful program and is working well for us in La Ronge, as the Prince Albert Grand Council is very knowledgeable in these areas. They've got certified and experienced operators touring the communities and meeting staff regularly. One thing that could be improved is if the circuit riders be used in a more hands-on approach rather than strictly in an advisory role, as now they can only instruct on how to do the job and cannot physically support the staff.
The recommendations from the La Ronge Band are to accelerate the capital projects for subdivisions and bridges, and update our unit rates for the Capital Asset Inventory System.
Thank you.
The Chair: I'd like to thank you both for your excellent presentations.
Senator Enverga: Thank you for the presentations. It's nice to see young people taking the lead in their communities, so congratulations on your new positions.
My first question is for Mr. Sylvestre. You mentioned that the community goes to Alberta or goes to the mines. How successful are they when they go to Alberta or to the mines to find a job? Are they being well received in those communities? Do they get the right job at the right time?
Mr. Sylvestre: There are many who go to the mines and to Alberta for work. Many of them are family people; the men of the family are the ones that go. But when there, they're not focused on work because the living conditions they have back at the community, in the homes — say if the water freezes or the furnace breaks — then they have a family that they have to look after, which is where they can't really focus. They end up quitting or not completing what they are there to do. That is the part that makes it hard for them to leave to find employment elsewhere.
Senator Enverga: Do they go to the job every day?
Mr. Sylvestre: It's more like a rotation. They have a week in and a week out or two weeks in and two weeks out. Some of them have 21-day shifts then 4 days off. It all depends where you're working.
Senator Enverga: What kind of jobs do they normally get? Are they well paid?
Mr. Sylvestre: Mainly it is labour employment.
Senator Enverga: I was thinking that maybe temporarily they can bring their families to where the job is and then eventually, as soon as they get some savings, they can build their houses within the band. Has there been any success story like that? How do you rate those people finding jobs in the mines or in Alberta?
Mr. Sylvestre: You can't bring your family to the mine. But in Alberta, it's mostly seasonal work, like in the winter months, and then you have the spring through the fall, until it freezes up again, and then you go back. It all depends. Even with that, it still doesn't help with the housing situation that they leave their family in. It's seasonal.
Senator Enverga: Thank you.
With regard to the Lac La Ronge Indian Band, it looks like you have some sort of income going to your community. Is there income from other businesses?
Mr. Roberts: We've got several businesses that generate income for the band, so we're able to supplement the funding that we get. I think there are about 12 businesses with the Kitsaki Management Limited Partnership, which is owned by the band. It's the business arm of the band. The band also has a grocery store, gas station and lumberyard where we buy all of our housing material. So there's some supplementation there.
Senator Enverga: I know that you are close to a municipality.
Mr. Roberts: Yes.
Senator Enverga: What's your relationship with the municipality?
Mr. Roberts: Very good. We are a close-knit community. Our borders lie right beside each other. We've got a lot of band members living in town and in the village, and some of their members may be living in ours.
All three councils get along well. We have several projects that we work on together. We share the landfill. We've got a regional waste management corporation. We share the regional fire services with the three communities. We've got the water.
Yes, I think there's a good working relationship between the three of us. We help each other out when we can.
Senator Enverga: Jonathon, given the situation you're in right now, it looks like there's no other source of income from the area. Could I assume that?
Mr. Sylvestre: Own-source revenue?
Senator Enverga: Yes.
Mr. Sylvestre: No, we don't have any own-source revenue right now, but that is something that we are working on.
Senator Enverga: Is there any potential source of revenue that could be around you that maybe you can work on or you can request some funding for? Have you checked on it?
Mr. Sylvestre: What do you mean request for funding?
Senator Enverga: Perhaps a development or maybe have a private partnership with somebody. Is there any potential development that you can think of in your area?
Mr. Sylvestre: For housing?
Senator Enverga: For housing, infrastructure.
Mr. Sylvestre: The only thing that I can think of is trying to get a loan. But then again, we're going to have to take it out of our general funding to pay that loan off, which means we then lose more programming dollars. It won't help.
You're looking for same potential? No, right now we don't have any.
Senator Enverga: I don't know the area, so it's hard for me to visualize what it looks like. With Mr. Roberts, I know there's a nearby town. There are some differences between the two of you.
Mr. Sylvestre: Yes, it's really different. I'm the chief of a First Nation, and he's involved in technical services for a tribal council, I guess.
Senator Enverga: In the future, where do you see your band? Do you foresee any projects that you're looking into? Let's say the government gives a share of funding, do you have any other plans to get out of this cycle, from your end?
Mr. Sylvestre: Yes, we want to become self-sufficient for sure. Economically we want to become our own — we do have plans in place, like getting our own housing committee to make sure that these points are being followed and making sure that we're up to standard and code once it comes to that point. But right now, it's very hard with the limited funding that we are receiving.
Senator Tannas: In this round I'd like to put some questions to Chief Sylvestre, and a number of them Senator Enverga has asked.
Chief, we really honour and respect you for coming here and being so candid, open and honest about the situation in your community. We're hopeful that when this is all done, we can come up with suggestions that will be helpful.
For clarification, you mentioned that folks could potentially either go to Alberta or go work in the mines. Are there mines nearby your community, or are they a big distance away?
Mr. Sylvestre: They are a big distance away. You have to fly out. People who work in the mine go towards Buffalo Narrows, which is 100 and some kilometres away. They fly out, and it's more northern.
Senator Tannas: They drive to Buffalo Narrows and then fly out?
Mr. Sylvestre: Yes, or if they work in Alberta in the summertime, they have to drive to La Loche and use air transportation to Fort McMurray.
Senator Tannas: What percentage of the community would you consider employed?
Mr. Sylvestre: Out of the community?
Senator Tannas: Employed in any fashion, either in the mines or around the community.
Mr. Sylvestre: I would say about 35 per cent are employed.
Senator Tannas: The next couple of questions are around the home ownership side of things. Do you have anything in place that would allow somebody who is employed to say, "I want a piece of land and I want to build my own house''? Is there anything like that on your reserve where people effectively through a CP or some other structure actually own their own place, built it, own it, make the payments, do any of that? Is that occurring at all on your reserve?
Mr. Sylvestre: No, it's not.
Senator Tannas: It's all band housing?
Mr. Sylvestre: It's band housing.
We do have CMHC section 95 housing on reserve. We're even having a tough time with that because for so many years we had housing through AANDC, INAC, put on a reserve, and then we come up with CMHC and rent has to be paid. It is very tough for us to collect rent from the tenants in order for us to keep up with CMHC's requirements.
Senator Tannas: How is that going? Does that further dig in to your regular operating funds because you're not able to collect the rent so you're chipping in your share? Is that what goes on?
Mr. Sylvestre: Yes, that's exactly what's going on.
Senator Tannas: Fair enough. So the collection of rents in your community is just not on, right?
Fair enough. We've certainly heard that in many communities.
It's interesting. I don't know which comes first, the collecting of rents or economic development, but it seems like that's all part of the process. When you've got limited options, collecting rent is blood from a stone.
Are there private farms? What is around you?
Mr. Sylvestre: There's not even agriculture around us. We don't have any land for that. We live in the bush. We're in the North, the northwest of Saskatchewan. We have lakes; we have people fishing.
Senator Tannas: There are no mining prospectors sniffing around?
Mr. Sylvestre: No.
Senator Tannas: I appreciate it.
Senator Raine: Thank you very much. It's interesting to hear from you because we didn't have a chance to visit in your area.
Chief Sylvestre, in the notes I have here, it says that in 2009 a school was built in your community. I just want to know how that's going. You mentioned that the young people are — because of the housing — having trouble settling down and taking advantage of the school. Is that school functioning all right?
Mr. Sylvestre: The majority of our school is functioning all right. There is an attendance issue. It's because, as I said in my statement, we have students that are in crowded housing. Studying doesn't take place when you're living in a crowded house.
Sleeping right is a factor, and then trying to go to school in the morning, there are situations where there's overcrowding even to wash up to go to the school when the bathroom is being used and the water. There are a lot of barriers that our students are facing in order to go to school regularly. But our school is still going, and it's pretty good.
Senator Raine: What percentage of the students would be graduating from the school?
Mr. Sylvestre: You mean overall from K to 12, what percentage this year?
Senator Raine: Of the ones who start in Grade 1, how many of them make it all the way through to Grade 12?
Mr. Sylvestre: Grade 1 to Grade 12, I would say probably about 60 per cent of them, 50 per cent. We just got a high school, so it's really tough to say from Grade 1. I can probably go back maybe to Grade 8 in 2010. It opened 2010.
Senator Raine: So the kids are staying in school longer now. Where did they go to school before?
Mr. Sylvestre: In La Loche. It was an hour drive every morning. I was a student. I was one of the last graduates in La Loche that used to bus every morning, get up at 6:30 in the morning, jump on the bus by 8:00, try to learn, and then go back home. You're tired and you get as much rest as you can to get back and do that same routine every day for three years to finish your Grade 12.
Now we have a high success rate of graduates compared to the small community we have. We have a high rate of them.
Senator Raine: Are there any modular homes in your area or mobile homes? Is there any opportunity to catch up on the housing shortfall using portable units?
Mr. Sylvestre: Trailers, you mean?
Senator Raine: Yes.
Mr. Sylvestre: We do have a couple of trailers. We got them maybe about 2007, or even earlier; maybe in the early 2000s we probably brought them in. We use mobile homes but only for teaching. Because of the high school, we had to bring more because we needed more resources for them, more teachers. So that's where we use our mobile homes, and even that is taking up our reserve land, to put teachers in homes.
Senator Raine: I was surprised that you only receive $113,000 and that it has been the same amount fixed for 20 years. Does that go back to the famous 2 per cent cap that was put on?
Mr. Sylvestre: Yes.
Senator Raine: We understand it has really been responsible for such a big backlog on community facilities, housing facilities. You're saying that you want to increase that to $152,000. Do you think you'll be able to catch up with that small amount?
Mr. Sylvestre: I don't believe that will be enough to catch up to fix everything that we're facing.
Senator Raine: This is just to repair the existing stock, not to build new stock?
Mr. Sylvestre: Yes, it is just to repair the existing. I can give you an example.
Everything has an effect. When we have repairs to housing, there is all the freight that we have to pay for things to be brought up to the North. Our closest hardware store where we get our supplies from is probably Meadow Lake, and from there, the freight for bringing those things up comes from our band-based capital. It makes it difficult. We have to use that money to repair homes. That takes a lot of the money that we receive. I don't believe $152,689 will be enough to even bring new homes into the community, but that's where it should be with the yearly increase.
Senator Raine: If it had increased at the rate of inflation, but you are falling further and further behind, I guess. How do you do the allocation of repairs?
Mr. Sylvestre: We go with the ones that are most in need. For example, if somebody has a broken window and the winter season is coming up, those will be something that we will have to look at before we repair something like linoleum. You can still live without linoleum, but you can't live without a window. Doors are another thing.
We have a lot of furnace breakdowns. That's probably one of the major issues in our community. People just go to wood stoves. That's something we shouldn't be doing. Right across the First Nations, that is the problem we're facing today.
Senator Raine: Is there forested land in the area where you live?
Mr. Sylvestre: Yes, there is.
Senator Raine: Can you make homes with logs?
Mr. Sylvestre: It was a thought to try to do something with log homes. Again, we don't receive enough funding to go that route.
Senator Raine: If the logs were available and you could get some designs that would work, it would seem to make sense.
Mr. Sylvestre: On the issue of building with logs, we did talk about building log homes, single units, because we have a lot of middle-aged older people who are single and have no families. They live with their mother and their father in a home, and it is tough for them because they need their own space and privacy. We were thinking of maybe even trying to do log homes for them, even if it's a small project, maybe one room, one bathroom, kitchen-living room area. It doesn't have to be a big house for putting a family in. Those were things that we were talking about, but then again, it always comes to the issue where the funding isn't available to do it.
Senator Raine: When you get the funding for any homes, you have to follow the regular plan. Thank you very much.
Mr. Roberts, you are in a completely different situation, obviously. You are closer to other communities, and you're doing a great job of sharing the infrastructure with your neighbours. How did those agreements get started? How was it initiated? How many years have you been going with the waste treatment and the water plant and the landfill? How did you get started working together?
Mr. Roberts: That's a good question. Those communities have always been there, as long as I have been alive. It could be 40 or 50 years that they kind of sprouted up. I know the First Nation has been there a long time. The town of La Ronge has been there, and the village has probably been there almost as long as the town.
Senator Raine: You have always worked together?
Mr. Roberts: Yes.
Senator Raine: That's fantastic. That's a great example. If you are working together, you can usually tackle bigger projects and do things for a longer term.
Mr. Roberts: It works well in La Ronge, which is only one of our six communities. The other ones are all isolated by themselves, but for the La Ronge main community, it works well.
Senator Raine: For the infrastructure in the smaller communities, how does that work?
Mr. Roberts: Much like it would elsewhere, where everything is looked after by the First Nation, whether it is water and sewer or the schools or road maintenance and all that.
Senator Raine: You put in the capital allocation request and just wait for your turn?
Mr. Roberts: Basically. We identify a need, and we put in an application. We try to stay ahead of the game by looking to see what is coming down the pipe. We have always got engineers on our project team and good project managers that advise us and let us know how we can maximize our benefit.
Senator Raine: That's great.
Your biggest challenge right now is getting some new subdivision designs approved and construction started on those, because you are running out of serviced lots.
Mr. Roberts: For the most part, the subdivision designs are done and complete and approved. We just need the funding to build them. They're tender ready. Once we got the funding, we can put out a tender and start construction. We have basically got no place to put houses anymore. We have built so many that we used up all the lots.
Senator Raine: Thank you very much. Good luck.
The Chair: I would like to ask Mr. Roberts about the band's home ownership strategy and relations with the Bank of Montreal. Could you tell us a bit about how that works, please?
Mr. Roberts: I forget when the program started.
The Chair: It says 2004 in my notes.
Mr. Roberts: The early 2000s, yes. There was some money there that we were able to use to provide mortgages. I think the seed money has since been rescinded. We had to use it on an elder's home project, but it got things kick started.
We do have a home ownership program that doesn't depend on the seed money anymore. If people are able to qualify for a mortgage on reserve, assuming there was a lot where they could build a house, we would allow them to build their own house using their own money. I actually just signed up a mortgage last year. I'm rebuilding an old house on the reserve, so I have got a mortgage with Royal Bank.
We have also got home ownership in terms of our old houses that were 20 or 30 years old. If a band member wants to buy them, we will assess the house, appraise the house and sell it to them so they can have it for themselves and can do whatever they want with it. Then they're basically out of our rules and regulations. They look after all the maintenance.
We're trying to go that route to reduce our housing stock, because, like I said, we have about 1500 houses. There are 1,500 houses on reserve right now. I bet about a hundred of them are actually home ownership where people either built them themselves or bought them off the band.
The houses that we build through the CMHC section 95 housing program, once the mortgage is paid up, if they have kept their rent current and paid it all and there are no arrears, they can take ownership of that house.
The Chair: You were just able to get a mortgage. If you don't mind me asking about your own situation, who owns the land?
Mr. Roberts: The land still belongs to the band. I just own the house on top of it.
The Chair: You were able to get a mortgage even though the band owns the land your house is on?
Mr. Roberts: Yes. If there's ever any default, the band will have to pay the bank back and it will become a band house. The band would have to pay the Royal Bank back, and the band could take it back from me as per the lease agreement that I signed.
The Chair: I would like to ask you both about the lack of inflation in the capital funding that you described. I am really quite surprised to hear this, because people complain about the 2 per cent escalator that the government put in place in 1993, if memory serves me right. You have not got any 2 per cent escalator. You have got no escalator. Both of you said the same thing.
I have no doubt that your figures are accurate, but have you tried to argue about this problem with the officials? Is there any rationale for that money staying the same and getting less value each year due to inflation?
Mr. Sylvestre: I'll let you guys know that I just got into this position about 11 months ago. I knew about it before because I was on council on my reserve. I knew about the funding being capped and it never did go anywhere; never did get any more since 1996. Even before that, I never knew much about the band system before I got on council, but I don't recall ever knowing where to take that problem. You mentioned to take it to the officials. I wouldn't even know where to start.
Yes, we get our regional directors to come to our community and meet in regard to this stuff, but they still have to follow protocol as to the budget they receive for each community. I wouldn't even know where to start to take this issue on trying to get an increase in our funding.
The Chair: Did you have any comments, Mr. Roberts?
Mr. Roberts: Yes. I have talked to AANDC a lot of times about a lot of things in regard to funding. I have talked to the overall capital manager in Regina. There have been a few things that didn't go our way and a couple that did. We finally got through.
We've got a good regional director general there now in Saskatchewan, Anna Fontaine. She's been open with us, and she has a good working relationship with our chief. I don't think with the last one there was a good relationship there. A lot of things were shut down in terms of being invited to come to the community and share in some of the community events. That got changed around.
Yes, the funding issue was brought up, but we never know whether they're going to increase funding or not. We don't even know what we're getting next year for funding. Right now I'm in my budgeting process for next year. I've got my draft budget. I don't know how much money I'm actually going to get. We will see what follows come March and see what the capital plan brings. Hopefully there's some good news for us there.
The Chair: I hope so too. Thank you.
Senator Tannas: Mr. Roberts, I have two simple questions. What percentage of your community would be unemployed versus employed? You've got access to some significant mining projects and so on. We were talking before the panel started today. Could you give me an idea of what your employment outlook and situation would be in your communities?
Mr. Roberts: I couldn't give you a number. I'm not sure exactly. I know northern Saskatchewan in general has high unemployment just by looking through the EI statistics there. Mining, tourism and outdoor activities are the majority of the occupations and provide the majority of the economy up North, but I'm not sure about numbers.
Senator Tannas: Fair enough.
What percentage of your total housing stock would be band-owned, section 95, and privately owned? If I have missed some bucket, if there's something else, could you give me an idea?
Mr. Roberts: Privately owned, I would say about a hundred of the 1,500. I think our section 95 stock is about 600 of the 1,500. The remaining 800 would be old INAC houses, I guess. There were also some of those section 10s from before we tried that, and we tried some of our own band-based; we borrowed money and built houses.
Senator Tannas: You built an amazing number of homes fairly recently. What category would they fall into? Would they fall into mostly private homes?
Mr. Roberts: No.
Senator Tannas: They would be band or section 95?
Mr. Roberts: They would be mostly section 95 and band houses, yes.
Senator Tannas: Are you encountering the same resistance to the collection of rent and, therefore, having to dip into other categories or bring own-source revenue to bear to make those section 95 payments, or are you having a little more luck collecting rent?
Mr. Roberts: We're having a little more luck, I guess, because we have staff whose primary duty is to collect rent. We have tenant relations people and accounting staff. They're writing letters, making phone calls, making home visits. We have a long list of people trying to get into these houses.
We also have a very solid housing policy that backs us up. We did lots of work on it over a couple of years. We ran it through lawyers, so it's legal. Everybody has got to sign lease agreements beforehand so they know the conditions of their rental agreement. They forfeit their rent and forfeit the house. There's a long line of people trying to get into that house that will pay rent.
Senator Tannas: These are the new houses, right? These are the newest dwellings. So you've got demand; you've got the backing of chief and council, presumably, and probably the community via this long line of people who want to get in.
Mr. Roberts: Yes.
Senator Tannas: They are saying, "We're going to pay.''
Mr. Roberts: Exactly. They're paying three times the amount of rent in town or in the village. If they miss rent there, they know what's going to happen the next month.
Senator Raine: Our notes talk about the First Nation trust fund having funding available for infrastructure, development and operation of recreation facilities and community infrastructure. Could you look to that fund to get funding for your bridges? This would be in Lac La Ronge.
The Chair: That is revenue from the casino gaming, I understand you are referring to, Senator Raine.
Senator Raine: That's right, the Saskatchewan gaming authority.
The Chair: Yes, and apparently that money is available through the trust to some First Nations communities.
Mr. Roberts: Sorry, those are in my notes?
Senator Raine: No, those are in our notes here. You were talking about how you need the infrastructure, the bridges.
Mr. Roberts: We have the casino or gaming dollars. That largely is an unchanged number. I think it's year to year. It's used mostly to fund our recreation programs and other facilities, so it is pretty much earmarked year to year. We don't want to take a sizable chunk out of it for that.
I think I said we would provide $680,000 of the $3.68 million total, so we would find a way to fund that if we could get approval.
Senator Raine: Do you know when the decision is to be made on those bridges? That's a disturbing thought of people not being able to cross over to their neighbours.
Mr. Roberts: The predesign is done for the Sucker River Bridge. That's the one that's going to cost the most; I think it's $2.7 or $2.8 million. We're just getting into the predesign of the Little Red Bridge, so we don't know how much it is going to cost. Both were fairly recent, in the last year. They were condemned, but we're basically at the mercy of the capital plan that comes out in March. We're hoping to see something.
I know there's a First Nation Infrastructure Fund that came out again. It came out about four or five years ago and it's making an appearance again, so we put in an application to that pot of money to try to get our bridges, too.
Senator Raine: How big are those bridges?
Mr. Roberts: One is about a hundred feet long and one is about 30 feet long. We're looking for a traffic and pedestrian bridge.
Senator Raine: Could a Bailey bridge work?
Mr. Roberts: We temporarily will have a Bailey bridge over one bridge, but I don't even think it has been set up yet. It is one of the options we're looking at, which is only a temporary solution as well.
Senator Raine: Where I live the temporary solution goes for 50 years. Some of them are in the mountain roads. They put them in and they just stay there.
The Chair: Mr. Roberts, could you talk a bit about the option you are pursuing of accessing funds through the First Nations Finance Authority? Our committee has observed that this is a sizable fund that was set up. It hasn't been very well accessed. Could you just describe how that is going? You said you need to meet stringent approval guidelines. Can you give us a little information about that?
Mr. Roberts: I'm just part of the group here on this new project. It's kind of a new thing we're working on. We caught wind of this last summer and we met with them when we were out in B.C. Basically you need to show that you are in good standing economically and financially. You need to show that you have a legal framework, like your own financial management act. Chief and council need to sign the proper documents — the BCR — saying this is the money coming in and this is how we would pay, whether through own-source revenue, band funding, gaming dollars or whatever, just to show that you have the ability to pay that back.
Once you get approval you can then borrow money to do almost anything you want. That's why we're looking at maybe funding our own subdivisions because we can't wait. We are looking at building post-secondary and daycare buildings. We can put them in one spot, in a central location, and provide education to our band members and they can have their kids looked after in the same building.
The Chair: Have you explored the possibility of getting funds to develop that capacity rather than just meet the guidelines? The act seems to contemplate that loaned capability, but it claims to also be available to develop capacity to build the system that you described. Do you know if that might be a possibility for your band?
Mr. Roberts: Possibly. I would have to talk with our finance people. They're the ones heading up the project. I just gave them the ideas on stuff that we need funded and they have been working on this with the finance authorities since October, which I think is when they started. We're hoping to have approval this summer so we can start doing something.
The Chair: We wish you well.
Chief Sylvestre, you mentioned that the First Nation at Birch Narrows is looking at getting its own housing authority. Could you explain why you would do that and what advantages you see in that?
Mr. Sylvestre: We want to put guidelines and a policy in place for housing, like keeping up to code with renovations and repairs that are needed to be done.
We want an authority from the community to be put in place, so that the people have the input of what this policy will look like and the guidelines they would have to follow. We want the community to be a part of it because they're the ones that will be living in the houses. They're the ones that know exactly what is mandatory, major, minor and things like that. How would you do with the selection of housing, if there are houses? For the allocation, who would get them? What are the criteria that they have to follow? It is things like that that we want in place.
That's the reason why we want to put the policy in place and then get it passed through the community. The community has to pass that policy so that the chief, the leadership and the community can follow it.
The Chair: That authority would replace the chief and council.
Mr. Sylvestre: Once the policy is in place, the chief and council will follow the policy on how selections or decisions are made.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator Watt: Thank you for your presentation. It is quite surprising to see that you have lived with the same number for the last 20 years. That is terribly unacceptable.
On that point, I would like to have a better idea of the people at the community level who are managing whether you have sufficient funds to do the work that you need to do to provide services to your community? Is there a government person that has responsibility in the community? You mentioned treaties. Is there a person who provides some assistance or at least provides you information on where you should go when you have to make an application when you are short of funds and when you need some ideas? What is the government doing? It seems like there's a complete lack of communication between your reserve and the Government of Canada.
Mr. Sylvestre: Our reserve is part of the Meadow Lake Tribal Council, so we receive a lot of our information from them. We do, once in a while, meet with INAC regarding issues on funding. The fiscal year is coming up, so she will probably show up and do the presentation of what the budget looks like, the cutbacks and the annual budget review.
At the community level there is nobody that I can get answers from on the implementation of treaty rights.
Senator Watt: You are very much on your own.
Mr. Sylvestre: Pretty much on my own to find my own information.
Senator Watt: At the community level, in the bush.
Mr. Sylvestre: Yes.
Senator Watt: You mentioned that your population is somewhere in the neighbourhood of 665.
Mr. Sylvestre: Seven hundred and thirty-four.
Senator Watt: I believe you also mentioned the fact that about 20, 30 or 50 per cent of them are off the reserve. Where are they?
Mr. Sylvestre: They're in the cities. They're in the mines. Well, the ones that are in the urban areas, cities like Saskatoon, Prince Albert, Meadow Lake, they left mainly for employment, because employment is not in place on our First Nation. Some of them have gone to school for university, for higher education. What they're doing varies. It is mainly employment.
But in talking with them — because I talk with each of our members that want information — a lot of them want to come home. A lot of them want to come back because they grew up on the reserve. They want to come back, but there's no housing for them. There's nothing for them to come back to.
Senator Watt: There's no housing and no jobs.
Mr. Sylvestre: Yes, all that: no housing and no jobs.
Even if a community member left the reserve and went to work for substantial years and is starting to retire, in order for them to come home, it will probably be their responsibility to build their own home because there is not enough housing on our reserve.
Senator Watt: If you are put into the position that you have to collect the rent, when there is no revenue generated at the community level — and I think I understood Mr. Roberts saying that that has to come out of the band member funds — in your case, what do you do?
Mr. Sylvestre: For CMHC rent?
Senator Watt: You only have $113,000 for the last 20 years. It makes me wonder, how did you survive?
Mr. Sylvestre: We just started our CMHC section 95 program four years ago. I was one of the first tenants to move into a CMHC house. When we first moved in, there was nothing in place. There was no signing agreement that we had to pay rent. It just became an ongoing thing that rent didn't have to be paid.
Senator Watt: Are you saying that your impression was that you don't have to pay?
Mr. Sylvestre: I'm just saying that's the impression the community got when they moved in, and it's ongoing. In the role I took now, I want to implement that there needs to be rent paid for these houses because it's just the way CMHC is programmed. That's how they run.
Senator Watt: Where do you get your material when you have either infrastructure needs or housing needs?
Mr. Sylvestre: Probably Meadow Lake, which is 370 kilometres away, and sometimes in Prince Albert, which is a little farther, maybe about 420 kilometres.
Senator Watt: But you do have a road?
Mr. Sylvestre: We have a road, yes. It's a gravel road.
Senator Watt: What happens in the wintertime when the snow comes down?
Mr. Sylvestre: It's maintained. It's still drivable.
Senator Watt: It's open year round?
Mr. Sylvestre: Yes.
Senator Watt: So you don't have to consider winter roads?
Mr. Sylvestre: No, not an ice road.
Senator Watt: But there are some in the country that are operating on the winter roads to be able to get supplies?
Mr. Sylvestre: I believe up North.
Senator Watt: In your community, it's not the case?
Mr. Sylvestre: No.
Senator Watt: I can understand where you're coming from. I'm from the North, the Arctic. I understand when you refer to bush. There is very little of anything, especially even considering starting something in the small communities when you know that being able to generate revenue is almost non-existent. That's hard to live with.
Mr. Sylvestre: It's true.
Senator Watt: I have to tell you that you certainly have the energy, and hopefully you will be able to turn that around. A community living with $113,367 for 20 years is totally unjust, as far as I'm concerned.
Senator Enverga: Can I ask, that —
Senator Watt: I'm not finished yet, but if you want to ask along that line, go right ahead.
Senator Enverga: I'm just wondering, is it $113,000 per month or per year?
Mr. Sylvestre: Per year.
Senator Watt: A month may be a little more acceptable, but we're talking about a year here.
Mr. Roberts, you mentioned that you had a problem with aging bridges that are collapsing and becoming a danger for people who need to commute back and forth.
Mr. Roberts: Yes.
Senator Watt: In the wintertime, what do you replace that with? You mentioned that they cross the river. I would imagine they cross by walking, or by skidoo or dog teams, one or the other.
Mr. Roberts: There is secondary access. It just means a longer route. Little Red, I think to go around, is 24 kilometres, and in Sucker River I think it's something like 4 kilometres. There is a secondary route. It's just you have to go around and access a different bridge in one case, in Sucker River, and Little Red you've just got to go all the way around.
Senator Watt: What's the difference between the mileage of the direct and indirect routes?
Mr. Roberts: How much is the difference in the "go around''?
Senator Watt: The distance in terms of getting there, getting your supplies over.
Mr. Roberts: It's 24 kilometres in Little Red and about 4 kilometres on Sucker River.
Senator Watt: Again, you seem to have a bit more access to the programs. You have a way of finding out what programs are available to you and can knock on the doors of whomever you need to knock on to get some information. But your friend doesn't have that same kind of an access, from what I understand. What can we do as committee members to make recommendations on that? I have an idea, but I would like to hear it from you. You said there is almost absolutely no communications between your band and the Government of Canada.
Mr. Sylvestre: I think what would work is more coming to the community, I guess, more coming north.
Senator Watt: To understand your community?
Mr. Sylvestre: Yes, to understand the situation that we face.
Senator Watt: And the predicament and the location?
Mr. Sylvestre: Yes.
Senator Watt: You feel that is not being understood?
Mr. Sylvestre: Yes. It's the same. I mean, we're probably funded the same as a First Nation close to an urban setting, an urban area, but then we pay more in everything we try to do. For every program that we have, we have to pay more in order to get services to a community. Even to bring professionals to the community to do things, we have to pay them all that extra money just to drive the mileage. We do spend more money than a community closer to the urban areas, and that's what I'm saying. For the communication, I would suggest have more people come to the community level to understand exactly how we go day to day and what we face.
Senator Watt: But you're not asking for the agents to come to your reserve.
Mr. Sylvestre: What do you mean, "agents''?
Senator Watt: A government agent in order to help to coordinate, to help you to develop your community. That's what I'm looking for here. What do we have to say? What kind of message do we have to put down as committee members towards your needs? You lived with the $113,000 for 20 years. I mean, this is unreal.
Let me go a bit further. This is important. I think we need to nail that down as much as we can, but I would also like to know what the purchasing power is in your community. You talked about the high cost of living, high costs of goods and transportation. Do you have an idea what your purchasing power is as an individual? What is your dollar? Is it our dollar, or is it 5 cents, 10 cents, 15 cents? What is it?
Mr. Sylvestre: In my community, a dollar compared to somebody else's dollar, I would say maybe about 50 cents, 40 cents, roughly.
Senator Watt: In my area, my community, the closest one is Montreal, which is about 900 miles, air miles, and our purchasing power is at 25 cents because of the high cost of transportation, high cost of goods, high cost of this, high cost of that. It's compounded. I imagine that you are facing the same kind of problem.
Mr. Sylvestre: Yes, pretty much.
Senator Watt: So when you say 50 per cent —
Mr. Sylvestre: Well, not 50. Maybe about 40 or less, because being north, it is tough. It's not the same. You don't get the same value for your dollar as if you lived in the South.
Senator Watt: No, it's far different.
Mr. Sylvestre: You get way less.
Senator Watt: Yes.
Do you face a similar problem? Are you close enough to the centre of Saskatchewan so you don't have the same kind of problem he does?
Mr. Roberts: Well, one of our communities is large, La Ronge, but the other communities are fairly isolated. Three of them are an hour away from La Ronge, which is basically in the middle of nowhere, so we also have high costs for shipping and freight. We have local businesses in La Ronge. Some of them are owned by us, but we buy our own stuff. Our lumber and furniture is a good example. We'll have it shipped there, and we'll use that for housing projects for at least three or four of our surrounding communities so they don't have to get their stuff from way down south. But you need to be set up that way.
Senator Watt: What is possible in those three communities you speak of? They face the same kinds of problems he does. What kind of purchasing power is there? Is it similar?
Mr. Roberts: Very similar. I'm not familiar how far away Birch Narrows is, but those communities are probably two hours away from the nearest city, which is Prince Albert.
Senator Watt: But they do have roads.
Mr. Roberts: Yes, year-round roads.
The Chair: It's impressive to me that Lac La Ronge has a lot of designs in place. Perhaps you made those yourself, being a civil engineer, Mr. Roberts, yet you're waiting for funding. I'm wondering who pays for those designs, and is the purpose of the design process to estimate the cost of the project?
Mr. Roberts: Yes. AANDC pays for those designs to get done as part of the project, and they're done in three stages. There's the predesign, the design, and then I guess the overall where you get down to the class A estimate once you go out to tender.
Yes, we've got a pretty good heads up. We've got good staff, good project managers, who've always communicated with us regarding what's available and what the next steps should be if we want to secure housing and infrastructure 20 years down the road. We're always looking ahead to make sure that it's there for us in 20 years.
The Chair: Do you know if those funding decisions are made in Ottawa or at the regional level in AANDC?
Mr. Roberts: I believe it's made in Ottawa now.
In Saskatchewan, I met with their capital review committee last week and talked about all these projects. I gave them an update on what's the most important, what we rank as number one, the technical details, if they wanted them. They then rank them based on health and safety and whether it's an upgrade or a repair. Then I think they just send their recommendations, or whatever facts come out, to Ottawa. The decisions are made here and relayed back to Saskatchewan and then to us at the First Nation.
The Chair: And you're expecting to get a decision in March?
Mr. Roberts: Yes. The capital plan comes out usually at the end of March, early April.
The Chair: Thank you very much, both of you. We wish you well in the challenges you're facing. Thanks for sharing them with us.
(The committee adjourned.)