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Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on 
Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Issue No. 47 - Evidence - Meeting of May 23, 2018


OTTAWA, Wednesday, May 23, 2018

The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade met this day at 4:15 p.m. to study the impact and utilization of Canadian culture and arts in Canadian foreign policy and diplomacy, and other related matters; and in camera, for the consideration of a draft report on the subject matter of those elements contained in Division 8 of Part 6 of Bill C-74, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on February 27, 2018 and other measures.

[English]

Marie-Ève Belzile, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, as clerk of your committee, it is my duty to inform you of the unavoidable absence of the chair and deputy chair, and to preside over the election of an acting chair.

Senator Massicotte: I nominate Senator Dawson.

Ms. Belzile: Is it agreed, honourable senators?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

Senator Dennis Dawson (Acting Chair) in the chair.

[Translation]

The Acting Chair: Honourable senators, I will be presiding over the committee, which has been authorized by the Senate to study the impact and utilization of Canadian culture and arts in Canadian foreign policy and diplomacy, and other related issues.

[English]

Under this mandate, the committee is pleased to continue its study today and to hear from Margaret McGuffin, Executive Director of the Canadian Music Publishers Association.

[Translation]

We also have Louise Jeanne Poulin, Chief Executive Officer, ArtExpert.ca.

I would now ask the senators to introduce themselves.

Senator Saint-Germain: Raymonde Saint-Germain from Quebec.

[English]

Senator Cordy: Jane Cordy from Nova Scotia.

Senator Bovey: Pat Bovey from Manitoba.

[Translation]

Senator Massicotte: Paul J. Massicotte from Quebec.

[English]

Senator Ataullahjan: Salma Ataullahjan, Ontario.

Senator Oh: Victor Oh, Ontario.

[Translation]

The Acting Chair: I am Senator Dennis Dawson from Quebec.

[English]

Margaret McGuffin, Executive Director, Canadian Music Publishers Association: Mr. Chair, members of the committee, I’d like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to make this presentation. I want to start by telling you a little bit about the Canadian Music Publishers Association, our members and the role that international trade plays in ensuring that Canadian songs are heard around the world.

So who are we? While some musicians record their own songs, there are many who do not. Instead, they either cowrite their tracks with other songwriters or perform songs written by others. We have a couple of composers and songwriters with us today at the back of the room.

Additionally, there are many composers who create the soundtracks of your favourite movies and television shows. We’re the part of the music industry you don’t hear about. You don’t know the names of these composers, but they are part of a very important and creative economy in Canada and around the world.

The Canadian Music Publishers Association represents large companies, such as ole, and entrepreneurs who run small- and medium-sized businesses, like Jennifer Mitchell at Red Brick Songs; Vince Degiorgio at CYMBA; and Daniel Lafrance at Éditorial Avenue. These companies all represent and invest in thousands of Canadian songs, songwriters and composers who are heard daily on the radio, on streaming services, in video games and in film and television productions around the world.

As you know, the music industry revenue structure is increasingly built around streaming and digital platforms. The technology around the distribution of music has changed dramatically over the past 10 years, but my members are changing too. We recently released a report called, Export Ready, Export Critical, that examined the importance of export for our members. I’d be happy to send you a copy, or you can find it on our website.

Music publishers are innovators, and their strong export strategies have allowed these entrepreneurs to compete internationally, with two thirds of their revenue now coming from foreign sources. This is a dramatic change from 2005, when only 28 per cent was from these same foreign sources.

The key to dealing with the changes in technology has been my members’ ability to expand globally.

The chair of our board is Vince Degiorgio. Vince is a songwriter, and he has had songs recorded by international stars in 11 different languages and has sold over 30 million units in many different countries. You have probably never heard his name until today.

One of his biggest successes was writing the lyrics for a record with an artist called Caro Emerald. That record was number one for eight months in Holland and broke the record set by Michael Jackson’s Thriller. Last week he travelled to the Netherlands to write the lyrics for Caro’s third album that she will be releasing later this year, before her European tour.

Vince is also a music publisher. He takes risks and invests in the careers of other songwriters who want to make the same musical journey around the world that he has had.

Travelling abroad is a key component of the music publishing industry. It’s why we host writing camps that bring together Canadian and international songwriters and publishers to collaborate with each other, which helps to foster strategic business connections and encourage export. We’ve hosted two Create missions, which include a B2B component, in Los Angeles, and one in Germany, with great success.

With the help of the Canadian Trade Commissioner Service, we have been able to use diplomatic assets to help the music publishing sector while building relationships and exporting Canadian songs around the world.

Additional government funding for the creative industry needs to set aside some money that addresses the needs of music publishers. Last year, Minister Joly announced an investment of $125 million for Canada’s first creative export strategy. We welcome this funding and recommend that a portion of this future trade money be directed to a fund that benefits all music companies, including music publishers who are driving growth with their world-leading export activity.

Despite their growth internationally, Vince and his colleagues face stiff international competition and many challenges. Canada is at a disadvantage when it comes to copyright protection. A strong copyright regime is an incentive for creation and for business. It’s easier to take risks and make investments when there’s an ability to enforce copyright with strong legislation.

For example, Daniel Lafrance is a Canadian publisher with a large foreign catalogue as well as a Canadian one which includes Félix Leclerc’s work. Some of these titles will come into the public domain soon because Canada’s copyright legislation is not in line with international standards. Several songs in Daniel’s catalogues are classics which have garnered tens of thousands of dollars of licensing in a movie, television show or commercial advertisement, regardless of their age. Day-to-day these songs don’t generate much money. However, 20 more years of copyright will translate into $200,000 to $500,000 if there is a good deal in place.

As Daniel has mentioned to me, there are one or two songs that generate 80 per cent of the revenues for songwriters and their music publisher partners. This is what allows the music publishers to invest in new songwriters and to continue contributing to the Canadian economy and export of Canadian culture.

The music publishing sector is made up of companies that are leading the growth in creative industries by taking risks and continually innovating in the face of the evolving digital landscape and international competition. Their continued success will rely on copyright policy meeting these challenges and funding programs that allow Canadian music publishers to innovate, invest in creators and compete globally. Thank you very much.

[Translation]

Louise Jeanne Poulin, Chief Executive Officer, ArtExpert.ca: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chair. It is an honour for me to appear before you today and contribute to your study.

My presentation will focus on business models that properly reflect the rich presence of Canadians abroad and how foreigners enrich our artists.

In fact, I will reference the findings of some of the works by my firm, ArtExpert, such as the study of 75 festivals around the world, the collaborative models developed in the public spaces of international cultural institutions, the work we have done on the artistic vision of the new Canadian Embassy in Paris, and cultural mentoring.

Our artists have been acclaimed in every major international city, and the works of our designers and our cultural products have found their way into every region on the cultural planet. Without trying to minimize our countless facets, I’m going to stick to a few strong points of our Canadian culture.

First, Canada has become an international hive of activity for the circus arts and shines for its living arts. Circus, like dance or music, has flourished especially thanks to the foreign capital it was able to attract. In fact, 90 per cent of the sales from the circus sector come from abroad. Dance and theatre, to a lesser extent, also rely on significant foreign investment, which is largely reinvested in our creators, producers and infrastructure.

Second, Canada is a breeding ground for companies that support arts and culture. For example, you will understand that the Céline Dion industry alone has contributed to the creation of theatrical design, stage design, sound, audio, video and multimedia systems and, on a whole other level, Robert Lepage’s Ex Machina. In recent years, festivals and international events have been calling on Stageline, as the reliability and security of its outdoor stage design is blowing away all the competition in an era where public safety is threatened by high winds.

Third, Canada, which is recognized as a hive of digital creation and production, has an impact on the entire planet of innovation. For example, as the initiator of the use of Radio Frequency Identification, RFID, in festivals and large public spaces, a Canadian company is sought after for its technology that promotes the accumulation of big data, a cashless environment, crowd control and the importance of festival-goers’ safety around the world as a result of recent tragic events.

Often flying under the radar of diplomatic networks, these successful cultural businesses or organizations are firmly established in the markets in which they operate. They have developed valuable exchanges, economic and creative attraction power, both for the public and individuals. These organizations have incredible know-how that they urge us to share, in order to benefit each and every person in their network, to the extent that they are called upon to do so.

The rise of a true cultural diplomacy requires the pooling of networks: our producers and our diplomats. That’s the gist of my message. Beyond the mere visibility of the product or its sale, dialogue and the sharing of expertise, even education, will encourage good practices.

There are multiple channels for Canadian diplomacy: departments, Crown corporations, the Canada Council, embassies, trade missions, and even Canadians who work and live in those other countries. These are so many networks that it is important to share.

Let me give you some examples of good practices. I’m thinking of the role played by a cultural attaché when he made his network available to a project carried out by an NPO in theatre. I’m thinking of the power of the mission in Russia, led by former Governor General Adrienne Clarkson, almost 20 years ago, with the historic meeting between the Bolshoi dance company, a Canadian author, and the people of Moscow. I am thinking of the exceptional network developed in Abu Dhabi and Sydney by a theatre design company. These are all examples of how Canadian diplomacy can contribute to the development of our cultural organizations, but also of the extent to which Canadian culture and arts enrich foreign policy.

At the heart of those exchanges and partnerships, there is shared expertise, a friend, a mentor, a colleague, a young mentored leader, a counsellor. Everyone must be involved in activating those networks, particularly through mentoring.

Thank you.

The Acting Chair: My thanks to both witnesses.

[English]

Senator Oh: Thank you, witnesses.

You mentioned that the market value of Canadian music sales totalled over $500 million in 2017. In today’s digital world, what measures are you taking to safeguard the revenue generated from digital downloads or online streaming services? How can the government help on this side?

Ms. McGuffin: This week, the Heritage Committee started the review of copyrights. Copyright is the basis on which songwriters, artists, labels and publishers get paid. A strong Copyright Act will make sure that we can ride this technological change.

The industry has been cut in half since 20 years ago in terms of its size, but we also need a Copyright Board that is able to render decisions on a timely basis. Both Minister Bains and Minister Joly have committed to putting funds into the Copyright Board, and we need to see changes there so that we are not getting tariffs on the rates that streaming and download services will pay four years later. It’s just not keeping up with the technology.

[Translation]

Ms. Poulin: Thank you for your question. I mentioned that 90 per cent of the revenues are reinvested into our own companies. On the performing arts side, there is a lot more talk of co-productions. It’s about sharing as much as possible the networks, the theatres around the world, with those who want to co-produce with our Canadian artists.

[English]

Senator Oh: Thank you.

Senator Ataullahjan: Thank you for being here.

I have two questions. Can you describe the impact and contribution of the Canadian music industry to our international relations and foreign policy?

Canada has a very unique culture and heritage. Are we taking full advantage of promoting that unique culture and heritage?

Ms. McGuffin: Songs are something that can travel around the world. It is quite often that lyricists from Canada sit down with people from Japan or with a writer from Sweden, and they are put into a room. One will be the producer, one will sing the top line, one will write the lyrics, and they will be translated into multiple languages. Songs go around the world and are truly global.

I think we can always do a better job at looking at our history and making sure that we can have the rest of the world learn about us. I think we can always do more.

Senator Ataullahjan: Is there anyone or any country that is doing a better job that we could learn from with regard to how they promote? As a child growing up, the culture and the music that was promoted to us through our embassies is what influenced me so much about Canada. I don’t know if we’re still doing that. Can we learn from any other country that’s doing this really well?

Ms. McGuffin: I can say that we in Canada are doing something well by putting culture people back into the embassies and consulates. That has made a huge difference.

We have taken Canadian songwriters to Germany. We are going to Denmark in September. The first thing we do is reach out to those people who have been put back into the embassies and are now helping us navigate the different territories. It’s a good news story.

[Translation]

Ms. Poulin: Exactly, how many artists’ companies are hits abroad? When I said that they slip under the radar, it is a risk that those artists take without the embassies or the trade missions even being aware. It’s important to know, because I think our artists are touring all over the world, and no one knows about it.

In Abu Dhabi, I was surprised to see how many Canadian artists were on stage without the diplomatic network being involved or aware. That’s why I talked about the importance of networking. Artists need to know that they have their local embassies and advisors by their side, and it is important for the advisors to know that Canadian artists are touring and exhibitions are showing.

The Acting Chair: Before giving the floor to Senator Bovey, who spearheaded this study, I would like to ask you some questions about the international dimension.

Artists who we know are Canadians are performing around the world. For example, in Quebec City, Steve Barakatt is more popular in South Korea than he is in Canada or Quebec. In his studio, with musicians from all over the world, he will do the orchestration for a record to be released in Seoul, Quebec and Canada. When do we take possession of their status as Canadians and when do we lose it?

[English]

When a production becomes very international because it’s being composed by one and produced by another, and being done, technologically speaking, internationally, when do we lose possession as Canadians? When do we pride ourselves on it being Canadian?

Ms. McGuffin: I believe that songwriters, composers, pride themselves on being part of a song. Songs are built in multiples. It is very customary for there to be four, eight, ten people in a room writing a song before it’s recorded by an artist. So for us it’s not losing part of being Canadian. It’s actually bringing Canada to the rest of the world by being part of that song that can then be recorded in many languages, in many countries.

Senator Bovey: I will turn your question around, if I may, because I think that’s a very good question.

Thank you both for what you have given us today. It has been very informative and useful. All this does good things for the artists.

I’m just back from the U.K., where Canadian photographer Ed Burtynsky got the Master of Photography award from Photo London with thousands photographers there. It was all over the British press and their billboards. I read about it there after I arrived. That’s when pride welled up. I didn’t go there knowing he was going to be there.

I didn’t know that Ballet BC had just been there, but it was in the reports over there.

I didn’t know that 17 young unknown Canadian artists had been brought over to a Welsh festival. These were musicians of all backgrounds. Three emerging bands had just been in another festival. So May has been pretty full.

But my question is, how do Canadians know that our artists are doing that work on behalf of Canadians? It’s great that they’re doing well, and without support there, I appreciate it’s hard for them. How do Canadians know, and how do we measure the significance of the impact?

My other question comes back to the issues to make it better. We have had a number of artists in a number of fields talk about copyright. I can assure you that some of us are going to be watching that legislation extremely carefully.

How many of these emerging, young and senior artists over at the festivals are paid for by another country rather than by Canada? I was quite surprised it was a British council that paid most of Ed Burtynsky’s way to Britain.

And if we’re going to take pride as a nation, what’s our investment in Canadian artists going abroad and doing the work as to who we are?

[Translation]

Ms. Poulin: Thank you. Senator Bovey, I’m glad you asked that question, because I’ve done a lot of touring in my career as a producer. I discovered the Institute for Cultural Diplomacy, which you probably know. Through the workshops it offers, ICD calls on artists to talk to them about diplomacy. That’s why I talked about mentoring and education, or networking with our own diplomats. I’m thinking of the “Booth Camp,” creative sessions that ArtExpert hosted to develop the artistic vision of the embassy in Paris. All the artists met for two days with diplomats to talk to them about how to use the culture. Those are just two examples, but without the need to create a specialized institution, I would like to see those networks communicate more frequently, so that the associations know that they can call on our diplomats without needing a cultural attaché or economic advisor who is familiar with industries like multimedia. That would be never-ending! We need to guide these diplomats or advisors during some of the major events taking place on the international market. I will let my colleague answer the question, “Who is paying?”

[English]

Ms. McGuffin: Education is important. No one knows that music publishers or composers or songwriters exist. I have learned that well in the last two years.

No one thinks about the music in a feature film unless you turn off the sound and try to watch it and realize the impact that people like these gentlemen in the back bring to the screen. It’s part of the experience. So we’re trying to educate. We’re trying to talk to people about it.

I was very happy to see many of the culture people from the consulates in Toronto a week ago at Canadian Music Week. They were coming in to learn about the music sector. For me, I used that as an opportunity to talk about that part of the industry that is sort of a secret society that no one knows about.

Senator Bovey: I want to get back to my first thought. On behalf of Canadians, those not in the art world and those perhaps not in the business world who can see the business connections — just Canadians — how do they understand the value of Canadian artists abroad and those international partnerships and the significance of the money they bring back to Canada? Not only the money but the reputation and the foundation of the richness of who we are, as Senator Ataullahjan has said, with our multiple backgrounds. What do we need to do to create that foundation of understanding?

Ms. McGuffin: I know it doesn’t go within the mandate of the federal government, but education. I have a daughter and son who are 14 and 16, and often what they bring home to read or what they’re playing in band is not from Canadians. We need to make sure we’re reinforcing the importance of Canadian curricula in our schools. That builds, then, girls who want to go on to become producers and engineers, as well as a future for my son, perhaps, in performance. It helps to motivate and help them learn, and then they will become adults who will have much more appreciation.

[Translation]

Ms. Poulin: Senator Dawson, I would like to quickly answer your question as to whether or not artists have to be flag bearers for Canada. In the artistic world, there is an entire creative community where each enriches the creation of others, especially during festivals. Among themselves, they know who is Canadian, but the product is international. Now, how can they promote their talents and become flag bearers? At the Glasgow Film Festival, they created a Canada Way to which everyone was invited. One specific director was there with a foreign production, and nobody knew he was Canadian. The mix of cultures is widespread and runs through many nations.

The Acting Chair: Thank you.

Senator Saint-Germain: Thank you, Ms. Poulin.

[English]

Thank you, Ms. McGuffin. You both bring a value-added component to our study. It is very complementary to what has been said by other witnesses, which I appreciate very much.

[Translation]

My question is for both of you. Basically, culture has no borders now and that offers amazing opportunities. The market is increasingly global. However, it comes with risks. The risks involve protections for rights, author credits and intellectual property. There are risks because of the major costs, and from maintaining Canadian art and culture in the broad sense, with its great diversity, including francophone culture. We are in competition with the culture of major nations and states, and with amazing artists from other countries as well. So, you have an opportunity to influence the members of the committee in the recommendations they will be making to the federal government. In the context of globalization, where the market for culture has become borderless, do you believe that the policies, programs and practices of Canada’s public services — granting agencies as well as Canada’s diplomacy — have adapted to the new market or are in the process of doing so? Do the fiscal policies take enough heed of globalization? Which recommendations would you like to bring to our attention?

Ms. Poulin: Thank you, senator. I am very sensitive to the costs because I have seen a lot of artists lose a lot of money abroad, especially the new generation who rushes into multi-platforms with open arms and loses a lot of money. However, I can think of two female singers who are making their own way through it all and could teach us a lot about it.

I would like to go back to one of the recommendations, the mentorship program. As an initiator of cultural mentorship in Canada, I would be inclined to include this international exchange, so that our two singers, who have had a lot of success, could play a mentorship role with the new generation.

The other major phenomenon, especially with multi-platforms, is what is known as discoverability. For example, when you go to Amazon, you rarely see Canadian products on offer. Canadian products are hidden more than ever. I am no expert on multi-platforms, but I know there have been some tentative steps to improve the discoverability of our products, especially in literature, music and cinema, so that we can be a little more prominent on the billboard.

[English]

Ms. McGuffin: I want to touch on both of those points. One is on discoverability.

We have built a very strong music industry in Canada with French-language content rules for television and for radio, and French language and Canadian content, and we’re missing that. The algorithms that new technologies use don’t allow us to see our Canadian artists or hear our Canadian songs or hear our francophone artists.

We have developed stars with that as a tool, and as we look at the announcement on the review of the Broadcasting Act, I think it’s very important to be looking at how everyone discovers our Canadian and francophone content and our very diverse Canadian content, because we are different from the rest of the world. We will not be successful internationally unless we keep Canada strong on that.

I also really feel strongly about investing in education and skills training across all the arts and media sectors.

I’m very proud to sit on a board in Ontario called WorkInCulture, where we have a three-year contract with the ministry of culture to look at gaps in skills training across the culture and media industries. We should be doing that across Canada.

[Translation]

Senator Saint-Germain: Discoverability is a very important concept because it is the first step to prominence. The international competition is there. So it is a really important factor. You mentioned the Broadcasting Act, but, besides changing the legislation, are there other, more specific actions that could be taken by the public services in Canada to make discoverability easier and to strengthen it? Are there more specific things to be done? This seems really important to me and it is the first time this committee has heard it.

Ms. Poulin: Unfortunately, I have no answer for you today, senator. At the Notman House, which I am a little more familiar with, they are doing a lot of work on artificial intelligence. They are beginning to set up practices. I would like to be able to give you an answer. I will keep you informed before your work ends. You are right, we are almost one step further ahead in terms of discoverability.

[English]

Ms. McGuffin: I think you will hear more about this. I’m not an expert in this field, but it is something on which my colleagues are focusing. We have joint colleagues who are looking at this as a priority. We would love to share more information because I understand that this is going forward into the fall.

[Translation]

Senator Saint-Germain: With pleasure. I think I can speak for all the members of the committee. We are very concerned about this, because it seems to be a crucial and immediate issue.

The Acting Chair: If you could send the documents to our clerk, it would be greatly appreciated.

[English]

Senator Cordy: Thank you. This has been interesting. I have enjoyed it.

I grew up in Cape Breton, and music and culture put together was a very important thing. We have the Celtic Colours, which started a number of years ago and has extended the tourism season for Cape Breton and brought a lot of extra money to the province. We have Gordie Sampson, a songwriter, who was fortunate enough to write “Jesus Take the Wheel,” Carrie Underwood’s first hit, along with others. He didn’t write it on his own. Those things are all pretty good. Getting back to your comment that songwriting is done in groups, it’s not like we think it is, that one person is writing it.

I wanted to talk about something you mentioned earlier, and that is royalties for songwriters and performers, artists. Times have changed dramatically when you went to the store and bought a CD, and in my day you went to the store and bought a record. It’s not like that any more. Things are downloaded and streamed. You spoke earlier about the need for copyright changes so that things happen quickly. It’s no good having royalties come in four years later. That’s not fair to the artist or anyone else. But how do you keep track of all of that? It’s not just happening in a town or city or even in a country. Now songs are distributed worldwide within hours. How does one keep track of that?

Ms. McGuffin: I’ve worked in a number of different parts of the music industry. What has impressed me about the songwriter-publisher side of things is they have international networks for the transfer. That was set up before we went into the digital era and now we’re leveraging those in the digital area.

They are quite far ahead also in metadata standards. You could have three different songs with the same name. We have very good metadata standards. We have very good collectives in Canada. And for the traditional streaming companies that provide their data in Canada, they provide, unlike in the U.S., 100 per cent of their data. As long as the songwriter registers their song with something like SOCAN, they’re going to get paid.

[Translation]

Ms. Poulin: Quite clearly, the performing arts can allow the artists to embrace downloading. We are now seeing the importance for musicians — we are talking about song and music — to perform on stage. At one time, all live shows paid less than CD sales. Now, given that downloading is much more difficult, there is an urgent need to perform on stages around the world. When the young artists participate as a group in unknown festivals they might go unrecognized, they are still there, and the downloading starts. That is why it is important to know that Canadians are at those festivals. According to our study of 75 festivals around the world, about 30 per cent featured Canadian artists and products, including visual arts. And in music, they were quite absent too.

[English]

Ms. McGuffin: When I was talking about the companies that pay and pay 100 per cent, they sat down and chose to interact with the rights holders and pay. We need stronger copyright to enforce against the players who choose not to pay, and that’s where this copyright review is going to be very important.

Senator Cordy: Thank you very much for that.

When you look at government departments and agencies who deal with arts and culture, you tend to think of Canadian Heritage as being the only one, but in fact we Global Affairs, Telefilm, and the National Film Board, among a few others, and it would touch other government agencies.

Do the agencies talk to one another? Sometimes in government we tend to have silos. Do they talk to one another and make sure things are pretty seamless for artists? I’m including writers in that.

Ms. McGuffin: It’s challenging. Many businesses fall into multiple categories. Many artists have to deal with various agencies.

It is challenging. We have found on copyright that it’s very rare one act has two departments. This is one where we see it, but we find that Heritage is working very well with Innovation on this.

[Translation]

Ms. Poulin: Actually, when an organization is subsidized, the various authorities will talk to each other. Telefilm Canada will mainly know the films it supports. The Canada Council for the Arts will mainly know the artists it supports and, when it comes to foreign tours, the two will consult each other. Yes, there is consultation. But I come back to what is going on under the radar: those who are not always subsidized and yet who look very good abroad. Yes, we need to activate the networks so that all those institutions can talk to each other. I think it would be a win-win situation for everyone.

The Acting Chair: Thank you once again. You’ve helped us move forward on the issue.

[English]

Senator Bovey: I have one quick follow-up question. We’ve talked about contemporary artists, senior artists and emerging artists. What about deceased composers and deceased visual artists? You talked about the Copyright Act and 50 years after death, and there is a movement to bring it to 75.

Ms. McGuffin: Seventy is the standard of all of our trading partners, except Japan, which is moving in that direction.

Senator Bovey: And we are 50.

I am thinking about a composer who died about 30 years ago — Sonia Eckhardt-Gramatté — whose work was under the radar screen for a long time but is now being picked up by young music students doing PhDs, material and all sorts of performances of her work. She’s now becoming hot property having been no property. How do we track that?

Ms. McGuffin: It’s tracked in the same way. It’s something that our collecting societies and our music publishers are experts at. They work with the States, with different people who manage those historical rights to make sure they are still paid. For a music publisher, they need a balanced portfolio of older works where they know there is going to be revenue coming in so they can take risks on new songwriters.

We want to make sure those estates get paid because the original reason for term was so that John and Greg’s grandchildren will also benefit from their work.

Senator Bovey: Thank you. I just thought we should get that on the record.

The Acting Chair: Thank you again to the witnesses.

[Translation]

I would now ask the honourable senators to stay for a short meeting on the report stage of Bill C-74.

[English]

With that, we will go in camera. I think it will be a short meeting unless committee members disagree on the report.

(The committee continued in camera.)