Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Legal and Constitutional Affairs
Issue No. 32 - Evidence - November 22, 2017
OTTAWA, Wednesday, November 22, 2017
The Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs met this day at 4:21 p.m., pursuant to rule 12-13 of the Rules of the Senate, for the purpose of holding its reorganization meeting.
[English]
Keli Hogan, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, pursuant to the order of the Senate of November 7, 2017, there is a vacancy in the Chair.
[Translation]
As clerk of your committee, it is therefore my duty to preside over the election of the chair.
[English]
I am ready to receive a motion to that effect.
[Translation]
Senator McIntyre: I nominate Senator Serge Joyal as chair of the committee.
Ms. Hogan: Are there other nominations?
It is moved by the Honourable Senator McIntyre that Senator Joyal do take the chair of this committee.
[English]
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms. Hogan: Carried.
I invite the Honourable Senator Joyal to take the chair.
Senator Serge Joyal (Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: Thank you, honourable senators. You will be spared an acceptance speech. As an opening, I want to express to you my humbleness in taking the chair of former Senator Runciman. I think Senator Runciman was exemplary in all aspects of his chairmanship. He was diligent, absolutely fair and effective. We are condemned to effectiveness, which is to thoroughly study the bills and subjects that are entrusted to us by the Senate. And, of course, he was enlightened by the support of the Library of Parliament, which is always exemplary. I want to express my sincere thanks for Senator Runciman’s chairmanship, and I hope I will be humbly walking in his steps.
With that, we shall move to the next item on the agenda, which is the election of the deputy chair of the committee. Is there any proposal from the senators for the election of a deputy chair?
Senator Boniface: I move that the Honourable Senator Boisvenu be deputy chair of this committee.
The Chair: Senator Boisvenu, I don’t need to ask you if you accept the nomination.
Senator Boisvenu: With pleasure.
The Chair: Is that the only proposal I have for the first position of deputy chair?
Senator White: I move that the Honourable Senator Dupuis be appointed to the position of deputy chair.
The Chair: Thank you for your proposal.
[Translation]
I will ask you the same question, Senator Dupuis: do you accept the nomination as deputy chair of the committee?
Senator Dupuis: Yes, Mr. Chair.
[English]
The Chair: Are there any other proposals for those two positions of deputy chairs of the committee?
Seeing none, I declare Senator Boisvenu deputy chair of the committee and I declare Senator Dupuis also deputy chair of the committee.
Thank you, honourable senators.
The third item on our agenda this afternoon is the motion for the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. May I have a mover?
Senator Pate, do you move that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the chair and the two deputy chairs, and that the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda and to invite witnesses and schedule hearings?
Senator Pate: I do.
The Chair: Is it the wish of the honourable members to accept the proposal of Senator Pate on the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Are there any other items of business that the honourable senators want to put forward?
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: Senator Joyal, on behalf of my opposition colleagues, I want to congratulate you on your election as chair, and to offer you our full cooperation to ensure the success of our study of the very important bills that will be referred to us very soon. We are very happy about your appointment, and we wanted to let you know.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you for your comments. If I may reply, I hesitated because those of you who have been on the committee for a while know that in the last 20 years I have taken a very direct participation in the deliberations of the committee, and I have always done it very freely, with no strings attached, as we say in French. Now, as a chair, I will have to restrict myself, so I will have to discipline myself and leave you to shoot first before I feel free to shoot first. Now you will be invited by me to shoot first, and it’s only if you miss the target that at the end of the meeting I will risk firing a ball, if I can use that term.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: Mr. Chair, it’s called pre-retirement.
[English]
The Chair: I think with all of us together, considering the background and the professional capacity of each member of the committee, we can do a very fair job of studying the bills and all their implications. I have always approached issues with the perception and the priority of trying to move beyond the day of the bill and push it down the road to their implications, their impact on the various groups and what each member is concerned about in relation to the status of prisoners and victims — and we are certainly happy to have Senator Boisvenu as a spokesperson for that — for the Aboriginal people, for all those who have a low voice in the making of legislation; it is up to us at this committee to make sure we hear them in the making of legislation because at the end of the day, as you know, all we do deals with the freedom of people. It’s not a responsibility that we can take lightly.
I have always been impressed, in all the years I have been serving on the committee, with the dedication and professionalism of its membership. So I feel very humbled to be able to work with you for the next two years, if I have life up to the end of this session. And it will also mark the term of my service here in the Senate, so we’re going to end up together for the coming two years.
As you know, this committee is always heavily loaded with legislation that is very important because it deals with the Criminal Code, constitutional issues and other issues of public policy that affect the rights and freedoms of citizens. I am very grateful for the selection of the membership on the committee. We have to thank our respective leaderships for the selection of the membership on the committee because it represents a very impressive cross-section of the capacity of the Senate as a whole, so I certainly want to mention that.
Senator White: One question, if I may, Mr. Chair: I ask that you make a formal request that the marijuana legislation, Bill C-45, be sent to this committee and not elsewhere, if you can make a formal request of the leaders of the three groups — and Bill C-46 as well.
The Chair: I wanted to canvass the membership on that. Of course I certainly have my own views on this. It’s an amendment to the Criminal Code, as you know, so by nature it is this committee, so we don’t need to be —
[Translation]
—”geniuses,” as we say in Quebec, to conclude with that.
[English]
I don’t know what the wish is around the table about making a representation. I will come back to Senator Dupuis, but is your comment on this very issue, Senator Batters?
Senator Batters: I think this one is not a health bill. This is an amendment to the Criminal Code, as you say, and there are many times when our particular committee deals with important legal issues that also have ramifications in other areas of society — health and other things. We recently dealt with the opioid bill here, for example. Simply because that was an issue that dealt with an aspect of health didn’t mean this wasn’t the appropriate committee. I think this particular committee is absolutely the appropriate one despite the fact that the House of Commons decided to send Bill C-45 to their Health Committee and Bill C-46 to their Justice Committee. I think that for the Senate, particularly given the breakup and the makeup of our committees, the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs is absolutely the right place to send both Bill C-45 and Bill C-46.
The Chair: As you know, we are a complementary chamber, so since they did it in their Social Committee, we might want to do it at Legal so that we will have both aspects of the bill being canvassed. That might be a way to approach it.
[Translation]
Senator Dupuis: I would like to continue in the same vein as Senator Boisvenu and pledge our support for the important work of this committee. You said it well when you said that you were used to working with as few constraints as possible. I can offer our support, and I am sure that Senator Boisvenu will do the same; we will share these constraints and make them easier to tolerate, since we know that there will be some.
In my opinion, Bills C-45 and C-46 should be studied together by the Standing Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs. Given the federal and provincial jurisdictions involved, as well as the issues that will be raised, it stands to reason that both of these bills should be studied by this committee.
[English]
The Chair: Regarding what you said in your first point, if I feel the irrepressible need to jump on the skating rink, I will ask both of you to chair, and I will take the seat of a member and have an exchange with witnesses if I feel I have the need to put forward something I feel very strongly about or on an issue where in the past I have taken a stand which would be helpful for the members of the committee.
I will not feel bound to be sitting here all the time and not have the capacity or responsibility, with your concurrence, to have Senator Boisvenu or yourself sit in the chair. That might be a way for me to have the capacity for an exchange with a witness or group when I feel strongly about an issue or I think I can bring something to the debate that will be helpful to other members.
In relation to Bill C-45, as much as I have been able to read what has been said about it, it’s to fight organized crime. Well, organized crime is better addressed in this committee than any other one, without, of course, making any comments on the quality of work of Social Affairs. Social Affairs has been chaired by Senator Ogilvie in such an outstanding way, and we were there to witness it. But I think sincerely that it is an issue of the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee, and, especially as you said, Senator Dupuis, it’s a federal-provincial issue. The legislation is federal, but the dumping of the province is provincial, so we might want to invite the representatives of the provinces to testify here. The steering committee will be able to propose a list of witnesses and work from there.
Senator McIntyre: If I may, Mr. Chair, I would like to say a few words in support of both Bill C-45 and Bill C-46 coming to this committee.
I wasn’t a senator at that time, but as I recall, the transgender bill was first sent to the Social Affairs Committee. They couldn’t decide on it; it was eventually tabled again in the Senate and came to the Legal Committee, and we made a decision on it.
Again, it’s an amendment to the Criminal Code, and I think that this committee should handle both Bill C-45 and Bill C-46.
Senator Batters: It was actually the transgender bill when it was a private member’s bill. It was Human Rights that got it first, and then it came to Legal.
Another point I wanted to bring up is that, of course, as part of our role in examining constitutional issues, there are very important Charter of Rights issues involved with both of those bills as well, and that’s another reason I think this particular committee is best for both of those bills.
The Chair: Absolutely, that’s a very good additional element of our reflection.
With your support, I will convey to the new government leader and representatives of the other groups the unanimous opinion that this committee should be the one seized with Bill C-45 and Bill C-46, and I will report to you in due time once I am able to do that. Is that fair?
Are there any other issues honourable senators want to address?
The only thing I want to bring to your attention is that while we were adjourned last week, the government responded to two of our former reports.
Regarding Controlling Foreign Influence in Canadian Elections, the government’s answers were tabled on, I think, November 14, and on our report titled Delaying Justice is Denying Justice, the government’s answers were also tabled in the chamber last week, on November 15. Honourable senators might want to read the government’s answers to those because at some point in time we might want to come back to those two issues.
The Canada Elections Act, as you know, needs to be addressed before the next election, especially where the issue of foreign influence is concerned. You know very well what’s happening south of the border on that topic, so we might want to revisit it; and, of course, Delaying Justice is Denying Justice is still very much on Canadians’ minds.
So I wanted to draw your attention to these items because it happened during the last week when we were not sitting.
Senator Batters: I did notice that both of those reports had been filed, but I have not had an opportunity to read them yet. It might even be possible to bring the ministers in front of us to ask questions about the reports.
The Chair: Absolutely. That’s why I brought them to your attention. We should keep following up on those two reports that are still very much pressing for different issues. It is very important for the capacity of this committee to follow up on its own work.
Are there any other suggestions or items, honourable senators?
Senator Boniface: Is there a meeting tomorrow?
The Chair: We will have a steering committee meeting after this meeting. We have no government bill, per se, in front of us. As I said, we certainly have those reports and the answers from the government. I don’t expect, as you might understand, that Bill C-45 would come to us soon because they are going to vote. As I heard yesterday on the news, they could vote on third reading in the House of Commons next week, so before the bill arrives here they will debate at second reading.
I don’t want to predict the future — it’s not exactly my cup of tea — but there will be certainly a strong debate in the Senate on Bill C-45, so we won’t get it very soon.
On Bill C-46, I heard the speech that Senator Saint-Germain made today. There might be other speeches on the bill, and I don’t expect that bill too soon, so steering will be able to see if we could follow up on those studies to get the explanations of the government’s answers, especially the ones I have just brought to your attention. We’ll be letting you know about this as soon as we can.
Honourable senators, I would also ask that if you think of a subject or an item this committee would be particularly well suited to review, please feel free to raise it at the committee. Then, if we need a motion from the chamber to move on that topic, we can go as a committee. I think it gives us a stronger capacity for persuasion in the chamber when they know the committee endorses the subject as an issue of review or study and there’s a will to move on something. If any of you have any subjects that you feel strongly about, feel free to raise them, and we can have an open discussion among ourselves and see how we might tackle them.
(The committee adjourned.)