Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Legal and Constitutional Affairs
Issue No. 59 - Minutes of Proceedings - April 10, 2019
OTTAWA, Wednesday, April 10, 2019
(137)
[English]
The Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs met this day at 3:16 p.m., in room B30, Senate of Canada Building, the chair, the Honourable Serge Joyal, P.C., presiding.
Members of the committee present: The Honourable Senators Batters, Boisvenu, Dalphond, Dupuis, Gold, Joyal, P.C., McCoy, McIntyre, Pratte, Ringuette and Smith (11).
In attendance: Julian Walker and Maxime Charron-Tousignant, Analysts, Parliamentary Information and Research Services, Library of Parliament.
Also present: The official stenographers of the Senate.
Pursuant to the order of reference adopted by the Senate on Wednesday, June 6, 2018, the committee continued its examination of Bill C-58, An Act to amend the Access to Information Act and the Privacy Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts. (For complete text of the order of reference, see proceedings of the committee, Issue No. 49.)
WITNESSES:
Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada:
Jacqueline Strandberg, Counsel, Legal Services.
Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat:
Ruth Naylor, Executive Director, Information and Privacy Policy Division.
Privy Council Office:
Mary Rassi, Research & Policy Analyst, Democratic Institutions.
The committee resumed clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-58, An Act to amend the Access to Information Act and the Privacy Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.
The officials were called to the table from time to time to answer questions for the remainder of the meeting.
The chair asked whether clause 37 shall carry.
The committee resumed debate on the motion in amendment from the Honourable Senator McIntyre:
That Bill C-58 be amended in clause 37, on page 26, by adding the following after line 37:
"74.1 Within 30 days after the end of the month in which a minister, any of his or her ministerial advisers or any member of his or her ministerial staff attends a meeting in the office of the minister and a person who is neither a public servant nor a public office holder — as those terms are defined in subsection 2(1) of the Conflict of Interest Act — also attends the meeting, the minister shall cause to be published in electronic form the following information:
(a) the names of all persons who attended the meeting;
(b) the date of the meeting; and
(c) the subject of the meeting.''.
With leave, the amendment was withdrawn.
The Honourable Senator Boisvenu moved:
That Bill C-58 be amended in clause 37, on page 27, by adding the following after line 18:
"75.3 Within 30 days after the end of the first month in which a ministerial adviser or a member of ministerial staff receives severance pay or any similar payment as a result of the end of his or her employment, the minister for whom the person was an adviser or member of ministerial staff — or, if that minister is no longer in office, the President of the Treasury Board — shall cause to be published in electronic form the following information:
(a) the name of the person;
(b) the date on which they ceased to serve as a ministerial adviser or member of ministerial staff; and
(c) the total amount of the payment.''.
After debate, the Honourable Senator Gold raised a point of order on the procedural admissibility of the amendment, on the grounds that it was outside the scope of the bill.
CHAIR'S RULING
In relation to the argument of the Honourable Senator Ringuette, I would like to refer you to a decision of the Speaker on April 4, 2019, concerning an amendment to a motion introduced by the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate. Essentially, the question was whether the amendment was within the scope of the motion and respectful of its principle. The same analysis applies in relation to an amendment introduced in relation to legislation. Is the amendment within scope and respectful of the principle of the bill?
I will read from a section of the Speaker's Ruling, which, in my opinion, applies in this circumstance:
The issue of the receivability of amendments usually arises in terms of proposed changes to bills, where issues of principle, relevancy, and scope have been examined with some regularity. As noted in a ruling of December 9, 2009:
It may generally be helpful to view the principle as the intention underlying a bill. The scope of the bill would then be related to the parameters the bill sets in reaching any goals or objectives that it contains, or the general mechanisms it envisions to fulfil its intentions. Finally, relevancy takes into account how an amendment relates to the scope or principle of the bill under examination.
That is the general idea. I understand that the intention, or principle, of Bill C-86 to be to allow greater access to information from ministers and any member of their staff. What the amendment seeks to achieve, essentially, is to add additional information within that category of these individuals. So, the amendment moved by the Honourable Senator Boisvenu does not change the category. We remain within the category, therefore generally within the scope, and the principle is to add additional information. In my own interpretation of the amendment, I find that the amendment is receivable.
Debate on the motion in amendment continued.
After debate, the question being put on the motion in amendment, it was defeated on a tie vote, by a show of hands (Y-5, N-5, A-0).
The Honourable Senator Boisvenu moved:
That Bill C-58 be amended in clause 37, on page 27, by adding the following after line 18:
"75.4 Within 30 days after the end of the month in which a ministerial adviser or any member of ministerial staff receives a payment or reimbursement for expenses related to relocation, the minister for whom that person is an adviser or a member of ministerial staff — or, if that minister is no longer in office, the President of the Treasury Board — shall cause to be published in electronic form the following information:
(a) the name of the ministerial adviser or member of ministerial staff;
(b) the date of the payment or reimbursement;
(c) the amount of the payment or reimbursement; and
(d) the reason for the payment or reimbursement.''.
After debate, the question being put on the motion, it was defeated on a tie vote, by a show of hands (Y-5, N-5, A- 0).
The Honourable Senator Ringuette moved:
That Bill C-58 be amended in clause 37 on page 28,
(a) by replacing lines 1 to 8 with the following:
"Contracts over $10,000
77 (1) Within 30 days after the end of each of the first three quarters and within 60 days after the end of each fourth quarter, a minister shall cause to be published in electronic form the following information with respect to any contract that is entered into during the quarter in relation to the activities of the minister's office that result in expenses being incurred by the minister or by any of his or her ministerial advisers or any member of his or her ministerial staff if the value of the contract is more than $10,000:'',
(b) by replacing line 21 with the following:
"so that its value exceeds $10,000, or within 60 days after the end of that quarter if that quarter is the fourth quarter, the minister shall cause'' and,
(c) by replacing line 27 with the following:
"that its value is increased or decreased by more than $10,000, or within 60 days after the end of that quarter if that quarter is the fourth quarter, the minister shall''.
After debate, the question being put on the motion, it was adopted on a show of hands (Y-6, N-2, A-1).
The Honourable Senator Ringuette moved:
That Bill C-58 be amended in clause 37, on page 28 by replacing lines 30 to 34 with the following:
"Expense reports
78 A minister shall cause to be published an annual report of all expenses that were incurred by his or her office and were paid out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund.''.
After debate, the question being put on the motion in amendment, it was defeated on a show of hands (Y-4, N-5, A- 1).
The Honourable Senator Ringuette moved:
That Bill C-58 be amended in clause 37, on page 32 by replacing line 24 with the following:
"that its value is increased or decreased by more than $10,000, or within 60 days''.
The question being put on the motion in amendment, it was adopted on a show of hands (Y-5, N-3, A-0).
The Honourable Senator Pratte moved:
That Bill C-58 be amended in clause 37, on page 34,
(a) by replacing line 31 with the following:
"91 (1) Subject to subsection (1.1), the Information Commissioner shall not exercise''; and
(b) by adding the following after line 36:
"(1.1) The Information Commissioner shall review annually the operation of this Part and include comments and recommendations in relation to that review in the report referred to in section 38.''.
After debate, the question being put on the motion, it was adopted on a show of hands (Y-5, N-3, A-0).
The Honourable Senator Boisvenu moved:
That Bill C-58 be amended in clause 37, on page 35, by adding the following after line 2:
"91.1 Information or materials published under this Part shall remain publicly available in electronic form for at least 15 years beginning on the day on which they are first published.''.
After debate, the question being put on the motion in amendment, it was defeated on a tie vote, by a show of hands (Y-5, N-5, A-0).
The Honourable Senator Pratte moved:
That Bill C-58 be amended in clause 37,
(a) on page 35, by deleting lines 8 to 15; and
(b) on page 37, by adding the following after line 29:
"99.1 A committee referred to in section 99 shall undertake a review of this Act within one year after the day on which this section comes into force and every five years after the review is undertaken, and shall submit a report on each review to the Senate, the House of Commons or both Houses of Parliament, as the case may be.''.
After debate, it was moved that the motion in amendment be further amended by deleting part (a) of the amendment.
After debate, the question being put on the subamendment, it was adopted, on division.
After debate, it was moved that the motion in amendment, as amended, be further amended by adding after the word "be'' the following:
"including a statement of any changes the committee would recommend.''.
The question being put on the submamendment, it was adopted.
Resuming debate on the motion in amendment, as amended:
That Bill C-58 be amended in clause 37, on page 37, by adding the following after line 29:
"99.1 A committee referred to in section 99 shall undertake a review of this Act within one year after the day on which this section comes into force and every five years after the review is undertaken, and shall submit a report on each review to the Senate, the House of Commons or both Houses of Parliament, as the case may be, including a statement of any changes the committee would recommend.''.
After debate, the question being put on the motion in amendment, as amended, it was adopted, on division.
It was agreed that clause 37, as amended, carry, on division.
The chair asked whether clause 38 shall carry.
The Honourable Senator Dalphond moved:
That Bill C-58 be amended in clause 38,
(a ) on page 40,
(i) by replacing line 33 with the following:
"which any incidental expenditure incurred by any judge of'', and
(ii) by replacing lines 37 and 38 with the following:
"(a) the total amount of the incidental expenditures reimbursed;
(b) the number of judges to whom a reimbursement was made;'';
(b) on page 41,
(i) by replacing lines 1 to 3 with the following:
"(c) a detailed description of each class of incidental expenditures reimbursed;
(d) the number of judges who received a reimbursement for each class of incidental expenditures; and
(e) the applicable guidelines.'',
(ii) by replacing line 5 with the following:
"which any travel or other expenses incurred by any judge of'',
(iii) by replacing lines 11 to 15 with the following:
"(a) the total amount of the expenses reimbursed;
(b) the number of judges to whom a reimbursement was made;
(c) a detailed description of each class of expenses reimbursed;
(d) the number of judges who received a reimbursement for each class of expenses; and
(e) the applicable guidelines.'',
(iv) by replacing line 18 with the following:
"penses incurred by any judge of the Supreme Court are re-'',
(v) by replacing lines 22 to 26 with the following:
"(a) the total amount of the expenses reimbursed;
(b) the number of judges to whom a reimbursement was made;
(c) a detailed description of each class of expenses reimbursed;
(d) the number of judges who received a reimbursement for each class of expenses; and
(e) the applicable guidelines.'',
(vi) by replacing line 28 with the following:
"which any travel or other expenses incurred by any judge of'', and
(vii) by replacing lines 33 to 37 with the following:
"(a) the total amount of the expenses reimbursed;
(b) the number of judges to whom a reimbursement was made;
(c) a detailed description of each class of expenses reimbursed;
(d) a description of the meeting, conference or seminar, its date, its location and the number of judges in attendance; and
(e) the applicable guidelines.'';
(c) on page 45,
(i) by replacing line 27 with the following:
"which any incidental expenditures incurred by any judge of a particular court is'', and
(ii) by replacing lines 31 to 35 with the following:
"(a) the name of the court;
(b) the total amount of the incidental expenditures reimbursed for that court;
(c) the number of judges to whom a reimbursement was made;
(d) a detailed description of each class of incidental expenditures reimbursed;
(e) the number of judges who received a reimbursement for each class of incidental expenditures; and
(d) the applicable guidelines.'';
(d) on page 46,
(i) by replacing line 2 with the following:
"which any travel or other expenses incurred by any judge or'',
(ii) by replacing lines 7 to 11 with the following:
"(a) the total amount of the expenses reimbursed;
(b) the number of judges to whom a reimbursement was made;
(c) a detailed description of each class of expenses reimbursed;
(d) the number of judges who received a reimbursement for each class of expenses; and
(e) the applicable guidelines.'',
(iii) by replacing line 14 with the following:
"curred by any judge of a particular court are reimbursed under section 34 of the'',
(iv) by replacing lines 18 to 22 with the following:
"(a) the name of the court;
(b) the total amount of the expenses reimbursed for that court;
(c) the number of judges to whom a reimbursement was made;
(d) a detailed description of each class of expenses reimbursed;
(e) the number of judges who received a reimbursement for each class of expenses; and
(f) the applicable guidelines.'',
(v) by replacing line 24 with the following:
"which any travel or other expenses incurred by any judge of a particular court'',
and
(vi) by replacing lines 29 to 33 with the following:
"(a) the name of the court;
(b) the total amount of the expenses reimbursed for that court;
(c) the number of judges to whom a reimbursement was made;
(d) a detailed description of each class of expenses reimbursed;
(e) a description of the meeting, conference or seminar, its date, its location and the number of judges in attendance; and
(f) the applicable guidelines.'', and
(e) on page 47, by replacing lines 5 to 9 with the following:
"90.22 The Registrar, the Chief Administrator or the Commissioner, as applicable, may, on an exceptional basis, decline to cause to be published information or any part of the information described in any of sections 90.03 to 90.09, 90.11 to 90.13 and 90.15 to 90.21 if they determine that the publication, even in the aggregate, could in-''.
After debate, the question being put on the motion in amendment, it was adopted, on division.
The Honourable Senator Dalphond moved:
That Bill C-58 be amended in clause 38,
(a) on page 38, by replacing line 21 with the following:
"to 90.24.''; and
(b) on page 47, by deleting lines 30 to 34.
After debate, the question being put on the motion in amendment, it was adopted, on division.
The Honourable Senator Dalphond moved:
That Bill C-58 be amended in clause 38,
(a) on page 38, by replacing line 21 with the following:
"to 90.24.''; and
(b) on page 47, by deleting lines 30 to 34.
After debate, the question being put on the motion in amendment, it was adopted, on division.
It was agreed that clause 38, as amended, carry, on division.
It was agreed that clauses 39 and 40 carry, on division.
The chair asked whether clause 41 shall carry.
The Honourable Senator Pratte moved:
That Bill C-58 be amended in clause 41, on page 49, by replacing line 7 with the following:
"(a) paragraphs 5(1)(b) and (d) and subsection 5(3);
(a.1) section 7;''.
The question being put on the motion in amendment, it was adopted.
It was agreed that clause 41, as amended, carry, on division.
It was agreed that clauses 42 to 47 carry, on division.
The chair asked whether clause 48 shall carry.
The Honourable Senator Ringuette moved:
That Bill C-58 be amended in clause 48, on page 52, by replacing lines 10 to 13 with the following:
"missioner under subsection 36(1.1) or section 36.2 of the Access to Information Act.''.
The question being put on the motion in amendment, it was adopted, on division.
It was agreed that clause 48, as amended, carry, on division.
It was agreed that clauses 49 to 52 carry, on division.
The chair asked whether clause 53 shall carry.
The Honourable Senator Ringuette moved:
That Bill C-58 be amended in clause 53, page 54, by replacing line 3 with the following:
"tion Commissioner under subsection 36(1.1) or section 36.2 of the Access to In-''.
The question being put on the motion in amendment, it was adopted.
It was agreed that clause 53, as amended, carry, on division.
It was agreed that clauses 54 to 62 carry, on division.
The chair asked whether clause 63 shall carry.
The Honourable Senator Ringuette moved:
That Bill C-58 be amended in clause 63, on page 60, by replacing lines 19 to 21 with the following:
"First anniversary of royal assent
63 Sections 36 and 38 come into force on the first anniversary of''.
After debate, the question being put on the motion in amendment, it was adopted.
It was agreed that clause 63, as amended, carry, on division.
It was agreed to resume debate on clause 13.
The Honourable Senator Dupuis moved:
That Bill C-58 be amended in clause 13, on page 5, by replacing subsection (1) (as amended by decision of the Committee on March 20, 2019) with the following:
"13 (1) Paragraphs 30(1)(b) and (c) of the Act are repealed.''.
After debate, the question being put on the motion in amendment, it was adopted.
It was agreed that clause 13, as amended, carry, on division.
It was agreed to resume debate on clause 16.
The Honourable Senator Ringuette moved:
That Bill C-58 be amended in clause 16, on page 8, by replacing lines 25 and 26 with the following:
on the fifth business day after the date of the report.
The question being put on the motion in amendment, it was adopted.
It was agreed to resume debate on clause 16 at the next meeting.
At 6:23 p.m., the committee adjourned to the call of the chair.
ATTEST:
Shaila Anwar
Acting Clerk of the Committee