THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL FINANCE
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Thursday, December 5, 2019
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met this day at 5:15 p.m., pursuant to rule 12-13 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Maxime Fortin, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, there is a quorum and as clerk of the committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair.
[Translation]
I am ready to receive a motion to that effect.
[English]
Senator Day: It is a great pleasure to nominate Senator Percy Mockler to be chair of this committee until the end of this year.
Ms. Fortin: Are there any other nominations?
[Translation]
Senator Forest: No further nominations.
Ms. Fortin: Great.
[English]
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Day that the Honourable Senator Mockler do take the chair of this committee.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms. Fortin: I declare the motion carried, and I invite Senator Mockler to take the chair.
Senator Percy Mockler(Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: Honourable senators, thank you for the confidence.
If you permit me to say a few comments — not a speech — I have been in an election that was harder than that. Thank you, honourable senators, and welcome back to our committee.
At this time, I would like to recognize honourable senators as members. I recognize Senator Smith, who has asked to join us, as well as Senator Tannas of the other caucus. Thank you both for being here today.
We have a mandate from the Senate of Canada. Before we proceed with the motions, as we prepare for our order-of-reference mandate from the Senate, I need to bring to your attention that I accept proceeding to the election of a deputy chair.
Senator Smith: Chair, could I make a recommendation on a nomination?
The Chair: Yes. I will recognize you, Senator Smith, immediately after I finish my reading for the record.
Senator Smith: I’m so excited because there’s a historical tie that I’d like to talk about.
The Chair: Absolutely, Senator Smith.
We will now proceed to the election of a deputy chair. I am ready to receive a motion.
Senator Smith: I’d like to recognize and nominate Senator Joseph Day to the position of deputy chair.
[Translation]
To provide a little background, when I arrived in the Senate, I had the opportunity to sit on the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance. I was deputy chair of the committee alongside Senator Day, who was chair, for five years. During those five years, he gave me a lot of time and was very diplomatic with me, because it was a pretty important learning experience for me.
[English]
Senator Day did a fantastic job of mentoring me through the first five years of my apprenticeship. That led to an opportunity to actually become the chair of the Finance Committee for a couple of years before I became the Leader of the Opposition. I really have a lot of time for Senator Day. It’s also important to recognize his contribution to the Senate, over many years, in the various capacities he has had.
I encourage our members from all sides to fully support this nomination until December 31, 2019.
The Chair: Thank you. The chair recognizes that the mover, Senator Smith, proposes the nomination of Senator Day.
Are there any other nominations?
Hon. Senators: No.
The Chair: If not, do we all agree that Senator Day becomes the deputy chair of the National Finance Committee?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: It is agreed.
Senator Smith, thank you.
Senator Day, I would ask you to come and sit here, please.
Senator Day: It’s not necessary, but I’d be pleased to be so.
Senator Forest: It is a Maritime task force.
[Translation]
The Chair: And now, honourable senators, we will discuss the motions and the routine we will adopt to accept the mandate of the Senate of Canada.
[English]
On this, the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure shall be composed of the chair, the deputy chair and one other member of the committee to be designated after the usual consultation, and that the committee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses and to schedule hearings.
Senator Forest: I so move.
The Chair: It is moved by Senator Forest that the motion on the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, as I have read, be adopted.
Is it agreed? Carried.
Motion 4 would be a motion to publish the committee’s proceedings. Is it authorized that the committee publish its proceedings?
Senator Duncan: I so move.
The Chair: Is that accepted, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed. Thank you.
Honourable senators, motion 5 is the authorization to hold meetings and receive evidence when a quorum is not present.
Permit me to say that, pursuant to rule 12-17, the chair can be authorized to hold meetings to receive and authorize the publication of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that at least two members of the committee representing two different recognized parties or parliamentary groups are present.
Do I have a mover, honourable senators, for authorization to hold meetings and receive evidence when a quorum is not present?
Senator Duncan: Sorry, I’m not moving the motion. I’m asking a question, Mr. Chair.
The Chair: Yes, I will recognize the question.
Senator Duncan: I’m wondering, in light of current circumstances, if perhaps it should provide for at least three members of the committee representing three different recognized parties?
The Chair: Honourable senators, if that is what the committee wishes and it’s accepted, that will happen.
Senator Marshall: I think there are four groups now, four caucuses. I believe the progressives are recognized as a group, too, as a caucus. So there would be four, not three. The number is just to receive the funding, isn’t it? The progressives can be a caucus and not receive funding.
The Chair: If you permit me, I think the clerk could advise us on that matter.
Ms. Fortin: Currently, there are three recognized parties or groups. I want to mention that if we go to four, this motion is useless considering that the regular quorum of the committee is four. The committee can decide to modify this motion for two or three but then, if it’s four, we don’t need to adopt this motion.
Senator Marshall: I’d prefer not to adopt the motion.
Senator Forest-Niesing: I have a question. Am I understanding this to be an indication of an intent that there be representatives or members of at least two of however many groups there are in the Senate, in which case we can leave it as is? Or was the intent behind this original motion determined in a different Senate context than the one we’re dealing with now, with more than two groups?
The Chair: I’ll ask the clerk for a little additional information on the comments made by Senator Forest-Niesing.
Ms. Fortin: The intent behind this motion is to allow the committee — if you’re hearing from witnesses and you lose quorum — to continue to hear from the witnesses. The committee still can’t make any decisions without the quorum, but you could continue your meeting with the witnesses provided that at least two members representing two different parties or groups are here.
[Translation]
Senator Forest: I would like to propose a compromise of sorts. To recognize the four groups, we could say that the Chair is authorized to continue proceedings in the absence of a quorum provided that at least three committee members representing three of the four different recognized parliamentary groups are present. This recognizes the fact that there are four groups and we are saying that, if a quorum is lost, at least three members from three of the four groups must be present.
The Chair: Three members from the four groups?
Senator Forest: At least three members from the four groups, that’s right. If Senator Tannas is absent, as he is the only representative of the Canadian Senators Group, that means we are automatically no longer able to conduct our work if we include all four groups. If we have three members from the four groups, it lets us be more effective.
[English]
The Chair: I have been informed by the clerk that in the Senate of Canada, we do not presently have four recognized groups. There are only three, as we are here this evening, in order to formalize a committee.
Senator Day: This is a standard clause that we’ve seen many times and I’ve never liked it. Every time I’ve seen it, I didn’t like it.
The explanation we’ve had from our clerk says the meeting is in process and you lose quorum. I understand, but this authorization to hold a meeting doesn’t mean that the meeting is in progress. It means can you start a meeting.
We shouldn’t be having meetings, especially on this item, without a quorum. We’re masters of our own fate here. I think we just leave it alone.
The Chair: Do I see a consensus around the table that we do not adopt motion 5?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you.
Honourable senators, we now move to research staff. Do I have a proposer for motion 6, that the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign analysts to the committee? It is being moved by Senator Bellemare.
Do we have agreement on this? Thank you, honourable senators. I would like to invite our two analysts, Mr. Alex Smith and Mr. Shaowei Pu, to sit at the table. Thank you to the analysts for joining us again.
Motion 7 is the authority to commit funds and certify accounts. Pursuant to section 7, chapter 3:05 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair and the clerk of the committee; and that pursuant to section 8, chapter 3:05 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair and the clerk of the committee.
Moved by Senator Marshall. Is there a yea or nay?
Some Hon. Senators: Yea.
The Chair: Honourable senators, travelling and living expenses of witnesses. Do I have a proposer for motion 8, permitting that pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witnesses’ expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses of one witness per organization upon application, but that the chair be authorized to approve expenses of a second witness from the same organization should there be exceptional circumstances.
Do I have a mover for motion 8? Moved by Senator Deacon.
Honourable senators, is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed.
Motion 9 is on communications. Do I have a proposer for motion 9 that stipulates the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to direct a communications officer or officers assigned to the committee in the development of communications plans and products, where appropriate, and to request the services of the Senate Communications Directorate for the purposes of the promotion of their work; and that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow coverage by electronic media of the committee’s public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its proceedings at its discretion.
Do I have a mover, honourable senators? Moved by Senator Klyne on motion 9. Do we have agreement?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you.
Honourable senators, this is not a motion, but I would like to bring your attention to other business. At this time, the committee can go in camera to discuss future business. If the committee wants to go in camera, we will suspend the meeting.
Does the committee wish to go in camera or stay in public for the following discussions? Shall we stay in public?
Some Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: As you know, the Senate created this temporary committee to study Supplementary Estimates (A). The document was tabled earlier today.
With your agreement and to facilitate logistics, I suggest that the deputy chair and I, in conjunction with the analysts and the clerk, take the final decisions regarding witnesses and meeting times. The supplementary estimates have just been tabled, so we will look at which departments are affected and make our invitations accordingly.
If you have any suggestions, I invite honourable senators to forward them to the clerk no later than noon tomorrow, Friday, December 6, because she must send out the invitations as soon as possible.
Senator Marshall: Are the supplementary estimates online now? We don’t have the hard copies. Somebody checked them.
Ms. Fortin: They were just posted.
Senator Marshall: They were just posted? So we can look at them tonight.
Ms. Fortin: I will send an email to all committee members with a copy of the estimates right after this meeting.
Senator Marshall: Okay. Perfect.
The Chair: Are there any other questions?
[Translation]
Senator Forest: We have every confidence in you as regards the relevance of the people you will invite as witnesses. Is it possible to send us the list of witnesses you think should be invited, to help us make suggestions that we could submit to the steering committee? When you have completed your witness list, if you send it to us in electronic format, we could send you suggestions if we think of other potential witnesses.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, I’ll ask the clerk to give additional information on that question. If it’s following the majority of members to change the procedure, the chair will recognize it.
[Translation]
Ms. Fortin: Are you asking if we can send you the list of witnesses as approved by Senators Mockler and Day so that you can propose additional names, saying that you trust their approval, or do you want us to send you the list for approval by the entire committee?
Senator Bellemare: I gather from what we voted that we now have a chair and a deputy chair and that another person will be appointed to the steering committee after the usual consultations. What are the usual consultations? I guess we will discuss that, because we have the mandate to study the supplementary estimates. After that, the committee will be dissolved and return in another form on a permanent basis. This is a temporary committee. Are you going to give us your vision for analyzing supplementary estimates and the witnesses who will be appearing?
The Chair: The standing practice is that the steering committee does some checking and then asks senators if they would like to call additional witnesses after studying the Supplementary Estimates (A) that we will have online. Before that, however, when we look into the question of the supplementary estimates, the analysts . . .
[English]
Alex, with your experience, will you tell us the procedure when we have witnesses that are identified by our analysts and the steering committee?
[Translation]
Alex Smith, Analyst, Library of Parliament: In response to Senator Forest’s question, in the Supplementary Estimates, there are organizations that ask for funding. In this document, there are 39 of them. It’s therefore mainly up to the steering committee to decide which organizations to invite. Normally, the organizations that request the highest amounts are selected.
The Chair: That being said, honourable senators, it has always been the practice of the committee — formerly there were two deputy chairs — to let the deputy chairs and the chair make adjustments and move forward with the study of the Supplementary Estimates (A), while taking into account what senators want to do when they see the expenses before us tonight — because we also have a deadline, which is next Wednesday, for reporting to the Senate. This would allow us to move a little faster. If you have any recommendations to make with respect to witnesses, you can do so directly through the clerk. Is there one last question?
Senator Forest: It was as simple as you inviting us to make suggestions. If I know who has been invited, then I can see if there are any other witnesses who could be added to the list. I understand that we don’t have much time. Forget my suggestion.
The Chair: Honourable senators, as chair and deputy chair, we promise that, when we have the witness list and we’ve reviewed it with the analysts, we will send you the list of departments. If you want to add more, you will have until tomorrow to do so.
[English]
Thank you, honourable senators. On the last two items, we are expected to report back to the Senate on Wednesday.
However, before I go to the final items, I will recognize Senator Smith.
Senator Smith: Sorry. I put my hand up a couple of times because I had an idea. I’ve had so many ideas that are bad ideas in my lifetime, but I thought this might not be a bad one.
We have a shortage of time and, if I understand correctly, there are 39 groups that have asked for money. Is that correct?
Senator Day: Yes.
Senator Smith: Can we prioritize and tie some of these quick studies to the actual Throne Speech? The Throne Speech set up some priorities. It wasn’t as specific as I would have liked to have seen, but obviously there are priorities that the Governor General laid out in her speech. We recognize that we can’t necessarily finance 39 groups, or 39 requests, because that probably would run up a huge amount of money that we’re not ready to spend.
If our analysts were able to analyze the speech and say, “Okay, from what we heard, we saw this or that, six or seven or eight outlined ideas in terms of focus,” then we can look at the actual documentation that has been sent to us with the amounts requested, we can lay them over and align things fairly quickly with a limited amount of time. It’s a suggestion.
The Chair: Thank you for the suggestion.
On this matter, Alex, can we respond to some of the comments made by Senator Smith in relation to our witnesses and also to link it to the messages of the Throne Speech?
Mr. Smith: We can certainly look for commonalities. I would note that many of the things in here will have predated the Throne Speech. There are things for veterans, for example, computers, cloud architecture. There are some things related to climate change. There’s money for the quick release mechanisms for foreign affairs.
So there are some things that are very large items that don’t relate to the Throne Speech, and others that do. Namely, there are some climate change items, especially, and things for Crown-Indigenous Relations.
Senator Smith: If there is any way that we can prioritize, it might be helpful. If some of these are dated requests that go back in time, we may want to try and re-prioritize the dated requests to see which ones have the priorities.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Smith. We will immediately distribute the supplementary estimates. This is a report on it. We will be receiving the complete report by email.
Are there any other comments? We leave it to the attention of the analysts, after you do your analysis, as to comments made that relate it to the Throne Speech. Then we will decide the time frame and the witnesses. This evening or tomorrow morning, in looking at both, if you see what is presented and you want to add to it, you could do that before noon tomorrow. Is that satisfactory for all senators?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: Honourable senators, we are expected to report back to the Senate on Wednesday. Considering the time limit available for the study and the need to allow our analysts time to draft and translate the report, we propose meeting this Monday between 5 and 9 p.m., and, if required, on Tuesday morning in our usual time slot of 9:30 to 11:30. Therefore, we must also schedule a meeting on Wednesday morning to consider and adopt the report. Obviously, if we have to table it in the afternoon, we will not be able to make any major changes to it.
Do you have any comments on the guidelines we are giving?
Senator Marshall: I want to comment. Some senators were indicating that it might be better for us to meet on Monday afternoon. I’m okay for Monday afternoon or evening because I’m coming in on Sunday, but I don’t know if there’s any appetite to do it earlier in the day rather than in the evening.
The Chair: Are there any other comments from senators?
Senator Day: I would prefer the afternoon. Following this timeline, we could get pushed into Friday of next week quite easily if somebody just says: You have to give a day’s notice for the report. We know that the report has to be done and adopted by the Senate before we do third reading of supply.
There are tight time limits, and I would be inclined to sit Monday afternoon. Let those who can come in the morning come, and those who can’t come Sunday night, like I will be doing. Then we could go from one o’clock until five o’clock and see how we are doing. We may not have to sit Tuesday and then we will be ready to give you the evening to do the report, and we’ll have it Tuesday morning.
The suggestion I’m making — and I was giving reasons for that — is that we meet Monday for four or five hours, say from one o’clock until five o’clock, and we’ll see where we are.
Senator M. Deacon: Senator Day, with that scenario, if we go earlier on Monday and we have some extra time, is there any scenario that can have us taking this to the chamber on Tuesday instead of Wednesday?
Senator Day: We have this report that we have to see and adopt and get translated. We have to get that report in and adopted by the Senate Chamber before we do a final reading of the supply bill that comes from the House of Commons.
The sooner we get our work done in studying and listening to witnesses and do a report, the better the chance we have of getting that report in late Tuesday or Wednesday.
The Chair: Honourable senators, I have to bring forth another scenario that we have been informed of through communications. The Treasury Board helps us guide the other departments when it comes to Finance and we have just been informed that Treasury Board cannot be available Monday night because they will be at the House of Commons. They would make themselves available Monday afternoon. Therefore, do we have agreement around the table that we meet Monday afternoon between the hours of one o’clock and six o’clock?
Senator Day: That gives us five hours, and then we will determine what else we need.
The Chair: There is a consensus around the table. Thank you very much.
Senator Forest: What time on Monday?
The Chair: One o’clock to six o’clock.
Senator Duncan: For those senators who can’t make it back, we can arrange for a substitute; correct?
An Hon. Senator: Yes.
The Chair: Are there any other comments, senators? Thank you very much, and we’ll see you on Monday.
(The committee adjourned.)