THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL FINANCE
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Thursday, November 26, 2020
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met by videoconference this day at 3:30 p.m. [ET] to examine and report upon the expenditures set out in the Main Estimates and the Supplementary Estimates (B) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2021.
Senator Percy Mockler (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Before we begin, I would like to remind honourable senators and witnesses to please keep your microphones muted at all times, unless recognized by name by the chair. Should any technical challenges arise, particularly in relation to interpretation, please signal this to the chair or the clerk, and we will work to resolve the issue. If you experience other technical challenges, please contact the ISD service desk with the technical assistance number provided.
The use of online platforms does not guarantee speech privacy or that eavesdropping won’t be conducted. As such, while conducting committee meetings, all participants should be aware of such limitations and restrict the possible disclosure of sensitive, private and privileged Senate information. Participants should also know to do so in a private area and to be mindful of their surroundings.
We will now, honourable senators, begin with the official portion of our meeting.
My name is Percy Mockler, senator from New Brunswick and chair of the Committee of National Finance. I would like to introduce the members of the committee who are participating in this meeting today: Senators Boehm, Dagenais, Deacon (Ontario), Duncan, Forest, Galvez, Klyne, Loffreda, Marshall, Richards and Smith. I also wish to welcome all viewers across Canada who may be watching.
Today, we continue our study of the expenditures set out in the Main Estimates and the Supplementary Estimates (B) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2021, which was referred to this committee on November 18, 2020, by the Senate of Canada.
For our first panel today, we welcome the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Mr. Yves Giroux, who is accompanied by two of his analysts, Ms. Jill Giswold and Mr. Jason Stanton.
Welcome to the three witnesses. Thank you for being here and accepting our invitation.
[Translation]
Mr. Giroux, you have the floor. After your statement, the senators will ask questions.
Yves Giroux, Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer: Honourable senators, thank you for the invitation to appear before you today. My team and I are pleased to be here today to discuss our analysis of the government’s Supplementary Estimates (B) for the 2020-21 fiscal year; our analysis was published on November 4, 2020. With me today I have Jill Giswold and Jason Stanton, who worked on this analysis.
The second supplementary estimates for the 2020-21 fiscal year total $79.2 billion in additional budgetary authorities, $20.9 billion of which require approval by Parliament. While these supplementary estimates are part of the usual business of supply process, there have been significant changes to the way in which Parliament has provided authority to organizations this fiscal year.
First off, temporary changes were made to Standing Order 81, which extended the study period of the main estimates to December 2020. This resulted in the need for an additional appropriation bill to ensure the government had enough funds until full supply receives Royal Assent.
Another key difference is that the government introduced several bills to authorize spending for COVID measures, and therefore did not need to seek authorities from the usual supplementary estimates process. These changes made it more challenging to determine the source of authorities, especially since some of these bills only provided temporary authority.
In these supplementary estimates, most budgetary authorities — $72.4 billion, or 91.5% — are related to COVID-19 measures. $15.5 billion of the $20.9 billion in voted authorities are related to COVID-19 measures, while $56.9 billion of the $58.3 billion in statutory authorities are for COVID-19 measures.
[English]
The amount of information that is publicly available to track this spending is lacking, making it more challenging for parliamentarians to perform their critical role in overseeing government spending and holding it to account.
Currently, there is no public document published by the government which provides a complete list of all measures announced to date with their costs. There is also no consistency with which organizations publicly report on the implementation of these measures.
This lack of data is not a result of it not being available. The Department of Finance had been providing biweekly updates to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance but stopped when Parliament was prorogued in August. Federal departments and agencies are also required to update the government’s central financial management and reporting systems with actual spending data on a monthly basis.
Despite the challenges in tracking COVID-19 spending, my office developed a monitoring framework to assist parliamentarians to keep track of all the government’s announcements related to COVID-19, which is available on our website. This tracking document enumerates the COVID-19 measures announced by the government and indicates whether they were included in Supplementary Estimates (A) or (B). It also provides high-level implementation and spending data collected by the PBO from numerous federal departments and agencies through information requests.
We will continue to monitor government announcements related to COVID-19 and update the document as we receive more information. I want to underline that this has been achieved by assigning only two analysts to this task, suggesting that the government could easily do it if it wanted to.
We’d be pleased to respond to any questions you may have regarding our analysis of the government’s Supplementary Estimates (B) or other PBO work.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Giroux.
Senator Marshall: Thank you very much, Mr. Giroux, for being here and also thank you to your officials.
You mentioned the lack of information in your opening remarks. It’s reassuring, because I’ve been trying to track some of the government’s COVID-19 spending and it’s really an impossible task. Are you able to further elaborate on that and provide some examples?
My second question relates specifically to the Bank of Canada. They do publish a lot of information on their website. They update their balance sheet weekly and so the information is there, but I’m having trouble interpreting it. If the Finance Committee so requested, would your office be able to do some sort of project on the Bank of Canada balance sheet?
Mr. Giroux: Thank you, senator.
Here are a couple of examples of tracking that is a bit more difficult than it was in the past. The CERB, for example, was a very popular program, obviously, and the government was providing information on a biweekly basis to parliamentarians and Canadians. With the transition to expanded EI programs and the new programs for those not eligible for the CERB, there’s not the same level of transparency provided to parliamentarians and Canadians. That’s one easy example of the lack of information that’s available.
Another example, which you alluded to, senator, is related to Crown corporations. The Bank of Canada is quite transparent in publishing regular updates to its balance sheet to provide information on its activities when it comes to supporting the financial sector, but other Crown corporations, such as the Business Development Bank of Canada and Export Development Canada, have not been as transparent in providing information to the general public and parliamentarians about the impact of their lending activities under various COVID-19 support programs.
With respect to your second question, senator, we have followed the Bank of Canada’s activities. In my opinion, the bank has been quite transparent. I don’t think it would be very difficult to provide the committee with additional information on the bank’s activities since the start of the COVID-19 measures. I’ve also had discussions with senior bank officials and I’m sure they would be pleased to provide information to the committee if the committee wished it to do so.
With all this information, I’m sure that between the bank and ourselves we can provide a lot of information to the committee. However, my advice would be to seek this information from the bank first. We would obviously be happy to work with the bank if the committee wished the PBO to perform that kind of analysis for the benefit of the committee.
Senator Marshall: Thank you very much.
Have you looked at Farm Credit Canada? They’re also providing COVID-19 programs.
Mr. Giroux: We have sought information from Farm Credit Canada earlier in the process, at the outset of the pandemic. However, I don’t have much more information than that. Maybe Jill and Jason can step in if they have more information.
Jason Stanton, Analyst, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer: Thank you for the question, senator. As part of the ongoing monitoring that we’re doing of the COVID-related measures, we have received data from Farm Credit Canada, but they have deemed it confidential. We do have that as part of the tracker we have online, but the data, as I said, is confidential.
We have also published some costing notes as well, as part of our analysis of the COVID monitoring, and we published a report on the Crown corporation’s COVID-19 liquidity support in early October.
Senator Marshall: Thank you for pointing out that they have the information. They just won’t share it with parliamentarians.
[Translation]
Senator Forest: I would like to thank the Parliamentary Budget Officer’s team for these really well-researched reports. Indeed, the government put in place emergency measures to ensure the survival of our businesses and the survival of Canadians. I have questioned the minister on a number of occasions. After all these emergency measures, and nine months later, it seems to me that we should be receiving some recommendations that would allow us to learn lessons for the future.
Take the example of firms that receive wage subsidies but at the same time pay dividends. We can see that dividends decreased, and then increased across Canada. During the summer months, many entrepreneurs, especially those in weaker fields, told me that CERB was a great measure, but that it encouraged many students to stay at home instead of going to work, especially in the tourism sector.
Do you have any recommendations to make to the government so that we can make adjustments in the near future?
In hindsight, would it not be a good idea to give the government guidelines that would allow it to target very effective measures that would also respect the values of equity and solidarity?
Mr. Giroux: Of course, at the onset of the pandemic, the focus was on providing quick and immediate assistance to businesses and Canadians. I agree, we are still in the midst of a pandemic, but the sense of urgency is not the same as it was in March and April. It would have been a good time a few months ago to think about the next phase and the necessary readjustments to these assistance programs.
With respect to recommendations for the next steps and for adjustments to the program, I believe that you, as a committee and as senators, have an ideal opportunity to share these recommendations with the government. However, my mandate from Parliament is to provide information and analysis to parliamentarians. Issues of recommendations regarding government programs are beyond my mandate, but of course, I would be pleased to discuss them with you, if you feel the need to do so. I would say, however, that you raise points that are entirely legitimate.
Senator Forest: Do I have time for a second question?
The Chair: Yes, Senator Forest.
Senator Forest: The debt-to-GDP ratio must be kept in balance, as it is currently out of balance. The debt we are placing on the shoulders of Canadians, and even on our own, humble senators, is becoming staggeringly high in terms of proportion. This would have been unimaginable just a year or a year and a half ago. In terms of the budget analysis and the fiscal anchors, and to be able to have some benchmarks, would that not be something to think about? Could we also define benchmarks within which we can afford to evolve, while being aware that there are extraordinary measures to be put in place for the most vulnerable Canadians, and not for corporate shareholders whose dividends increased by 4%?
Mr. Giroux: Absolutely, senator. It is clear, and I have spoken about this several times in recent months, that we need to establish budget targets or fiscal anchors. There are several terms for the same concept. It is something that is very useful for a government, not only to establish fiscal credibility and to tell citizens and the financial markets what to expect in the years ahead, but also to make it easier for the Minister of Finance, who as a parliamentarian is certainly beset by multiple requests for new programs and new spending. As parliamentarians, you are probably in a much better position than I am to attest to the fact that there are many pressures and demands. Having budget targets that are clear and known helps a government a great deal in making decisions about what to do and what not to do. It makes it easier for a government to sort out what it wants to do and what it doesn’t want to do as a priority. The absence of such budgetary targets makes the task more difficult and adds a great deal of uncertainty to the government’s future finances.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator Forest: Thank you; I’d like to register for the second round, Mr. Chair, if I may.
[English]
Senator Klyne: Welcome to our guests.
To the PBO: In your report Supplementary Estimates (B) 2020-21, you indicated that the government has not been reporting the available data and that evoked concern in my colleagues before me. The government has not been reporting the available data for a variety of programs and billions of dollars in support/assistance in these trying times.
You also outlined that, due to the lack of data, you’ve had to create your own monitoring framework based on government announcements. Regarding Canada’s citizens, industry sectors and businesses, the three senior levels of government and Indigenous governments, what are the unnecessary difficulties created for these entities as it relates to not having access to the relevant data around COVID-19 response programs, the measures being taken and progress reports? I wonder if we can put a cost to this.
Mr. Giroux: I’m not sure if I can put a cost on the fact that the information is not as available as it used to be or as it should be. It certainly affects the work of parliamentarians like you, senator, and the other members of the committee, by not having the level of information that one would expect when the government is spending these unprecedented amounts.
It does not allow you collectively to perform your challenge function and to hold the government to account as well as you would otherwise be able to do.
For example, when you’re asked to vote on immense amounts of money and you don’t know exactly the extent to which programs that were put in place to respond to COVID-19 are being used or not, it makes your job even more challenging than it already is in holding the government account — especially if you don’t know precisely how much money is being spent. I’m not sure I can put a value or dollar amount on this lack of information, but it certainly affects the capacity that you have in holding the government to account.
Senator Klyne: You noted in your Supplementary Estimates (B) report that the government has split up the Full Supply into three appropriation bills, meaning some organizations have still not received their full appropriations from the Main Estimates for 2020-21. Can you provide this committee with more detailed information about which entities have been waiting for the appropriations and have been substantially impacted by this delay and some of the undue difficulties they might have been experiencing?
Mr. Giroux: I’ll ask either Ms. Giswold or Mr. Stanton to give you a couple of examples of organizations that are still waiting for their full appropriations, if they have any.
Mr. Stanton: Thank you for the question. I don’t have the information directly in front of me. What I would say is that, on average, the interim supply usually provides around three twelfths at the beginning of the year until the Main Estimates receives Royal Assent.
In this case, there was a secondary interim estimate which provided roughly six and a half to eight twelfths’ worth of the Main Estimates. Then the additional amount will be coming in the appropriation bill shortly.
We can certainly look at the previous appropriations bills that have received Royal Assent compared to the difference in what was included in the Main Estimates, and we can follow up with the committee on that status.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator Klyne, is that satisfactory?
Senator Klyne: Yes. I’m not sure if Ms. Giswold wanted to answer as well. I was also thinking about discussions Senator Duncan and I were having the other day regarding tribunals that have awarded monies to First Nations, but that has been carried over now into another period under this Supplementary Estimates (B).
The Chair: Ms. Giswold, do you have any comments?
Jill Giswold, Analyst, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer: No. I believe we’ll have to follow up with you on this as well.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator Richards: Thank you to the witnesses. My question is quite simple because it’s been asked by the last three senators.
I’m just wondering if there’s going to be a full and independent accounting and study of all these monies being spent after the fact so we will know where the monies have gone. Right now, we only have a shadowy idea of where the money is going.
Mr. Giroux, would it be a demand on the department to do this so we’ll know where these monies have been spent?
Mr. Giroux: Thank you, senator. My office started to investigate or look at COVID-19 spending almost from the moment the extraordinary measures were announced and introduced, and as we get ready for fiscal updates next week, my office will continue to look at the pace of spending and provide independent estimates to parliamentarians and Canadians. We will continue to monitor COVID-19 spending.
With respect to an audit or an assessment of where the money was spent, that’s probably a good question to address to the Auditor General. I suspect she and her office will have a very keen interest in looking, after the fact, at spending related to COVID-19 for various programs.
But when it comes to estimating the costs independently and looking at how much these programs will cost prospectively and providing independent estimates to parliamentarians, we will certainly continue to do so, as we have started to do that since mid-March, when the pandemic started.
Senator Richards: Thank you very much.
[Translation]
Senator Dagenais: Mr. Giroux, it is always a pleasure to welcome you as a witness.
You know that the topic of interest in recent days has been the potential vaccine doses that were reserved and announced by the Prime Minister. We are facing what I would call a hoax, in light of the fact that we will be the eighth country in line to get access, among those that reserved vaccines with pharmaceutical companies. We also do not know how much money has been committed by the Prime Minister to this venture.
By looking at the available figures, were you able to find out how much it cost to book the vaccines? If not, do you find it normal that this amount is kept secret in the expenditures of the current government?
Mr. Giroux: Senator, the cost of most, if not all, of the measures related to COVID-19 were considered. Since there are several dozen measures, if not nearly a hundred — the list is long — a cost estimate for vaccines was certainly considered. However, we did not examine how quickly we will receive them or where Canada ranks in relation to other countries. As economists, we’re more concerned about costs and dollar amounts than other aspects of public policy. Perhaps my colleagues have something to add with respect to the amounts committed to reserve vaccines.
Ms. Giswold: We received data from the Public Health Agency on vaccine expenditures. At this time, these data are considered confidential.
[English]
Mr. Stanton: I agree with everything that has been said. The only thing that I would add is that in the online tracker that we’ve published, we tried to align what has been included in the supplementary estimates with the specific COVID-related measures. There are COVID-related measures related to the vaccines, and we have mapped the organizations that have sought funding through the supplementary estimates with those measures as well. That information, in terms of what’s coming through the supplementary estimates, is online as well.
[Translation]
Senator Dagenais: Indeed, Ms. Giswold, as you mentioned, some data remains confidential. I must admit that it is worrisome that the government is showing such a lack of transparency, especially in light of what happened with the WE charity, where hundreds of millions of dollars were going to be allocated to people close to the Trudeau family.
Do you know why the government refuses to provide information necessary for a critical and serious analysis of the actions it has been taking for some time? My question is for Mr. Giroux.
Mr. Giroux: As I am not a public health or immunization specialist, I cannot comment on whether or not this information needs to be kept confidential. What we have been told is that the information is confidential for competitive or trade secret reasons. I believe that is the reason why we were not provided with the details or why we cannot disclose this information. As to whether or not this is justified, since I am not an expert in the field, that is difficult for me to judge. Nonetheless, I believe that your committee is entitled to ask these questions, as are you, senator.
Senator Dagenais: When we learn about the cost of the vaccines, I hope we don’t find out that we paid more than the other countries.
The Chair: That was not a question, but a comment.
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Senator Galvez: Thank you. I have two questions, one very specific and the other more general. I will start with my specific question.
I take note that your comments, Mr. Giroux, are very strong in the detection that there is a lack of transparency. I take note of that, and I take note of the fact that you have good data coming from the Bank of Canada but not from the Business Development Bank of Canada or EDC.
Yesterday I asked questions concerning the funds that were given to the oil industry for the remediation of orphan wells, and we were told that the number of these orphan wells — abandoned and inactive wells — is colossal and the costs are incredible.
I want to congratulate you because while looking for this information, I went to the monitoring framework that you have developed to put clarity on the spending, and I noticed that you have asked the government about these orphan wells. Have you received answers? If not, why are answers not coming?
Mr. Giroux: Thank you, senator. I don’t know the answer to that particular question off the top of my head, given the amount of information requests we send, so I’m looking to Jason and Jill if they know the answer. If not, we can get back to you on that specific one.
Mr. Stanton: Thank you for the question. I’ll let my colleague Jill answer that.
Ms. Giswold: Thank you for the question, senator. We did send that in an information request. At the time, we were told that the information is not yet available and that once it becomes available, we will be receiving it from the department. As to why that information is not yet available, it’s probably best to ask the department.
Senator Galvez: You mentioned, Mr. Giroux, that this is an unprecedented budget with unprecedented sums of funds that are being poured into the economy. Yes, when there is no transparency, there is plenty of room for corruption and misuse of money.
Have you compared the situation in Canada with accounting and monitoring systems in other G7 countries? If so, do you think it’s a good idea to compare situations?
Mr. Giroux: That’s an interesting question, and one that I did not expect, senator.
We have compared Canada with other G7 countries when it comes to the response to the COVID-19 crisis, and we find that Canada has been one of the most generous countries in terms of direct assistance to individuals and businesses, combined. Other countries have sometimes provided more support but in the form of loans instead of direct assistance.
When it comes to transparency, we haven’t looked at COVID-19 specifically. However, we find that Canada is generally regarded quite positively by other G7 and OECD countries. In fact, we’re often looked upon as a good model of transparency, generally speaking, and I’m not talking about COVID-19 specifically.
Even though there are issues with COVID-19 spending where transparency has been lacking recently, generally speaking, Canada is considered a good model country when it comes to transparency — with the establishment, notably, of a Parliamentary Budget Officer who is an agent of Parliament. It’s a model that has been replicated in other countries.
Generally speaking, we are scoring relatively well on transparency, even though, as I mentioned, there is room for improvement, especially with respect to the unprecedented powers that the government has been granted for COVID-19 response.
Senator Galvez: Do you have any specific recommendations with respect to how information should be transferred? Do you have a method that you think we can recommend to the government to use in communicating information?
Mr. Giroux: Certainly. I think it would be advisable to have regular exchanges of information. For example, what the government was providing to the House Committee on Finance was a good practice that I think should have been extended even after prorogation.
With respect to the legislative authorities, I have made suggestions to the Government House Leader earlier this year with respect to allowing my office to have easier access to specific types of information, which would allow me to better deliver on my mandate. I received a response recently from the Government House Leader that now is not the right time to provide you with easier access to specific types of information. The Government House Leader said that when it comes time to have a legislative review of my mandate, in 2022, these could be considered.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you for being here and for being candid with us this afternoon and in your reports.
My first question concerns the Fiscal Sustainability Report update from November 6, which said the government had about $19 billion of spending runway left. Reports specify that the assessment incorporates pandemic budgetary measures but assumes that pandemic response measures are withdrawn as currently scheduled.
I believe that your analysis has factored in spending on programs announced up until September 1. Less than a week ago we passed Bill C-9, which pushed back the deadlines on wage and rent subsidies. I’m wondering if this changes the $19-billion wiggle room that was stated earlier and what that might look like now.
Mr. Giroux: When looking at the Fiscal Sustainability Report, we have to make assumptions and we have to, at one point, stop considering additional spending. We looked at the spending announced as of September 1. We could have made assumptions as to what the government would do beyond September 1, but then we would have been into hypotheses and assuming what the government will do, which is always risky.
When looking at fiscal sustainability over the long term, we define sustainability as a debt-to-GDP ratio that’s either stable or declining, as opposed to ever-increasing. That’s how we came up with the wiggle room — or flexibility or runway space — of about $19 billion.
Had we factored in the additional spending announced since September 1, given that this is still temporary, it would reduce that fiscal flexibility of $19 billion, but only by a little bit, because we’re looking over a long-term horizon of 75 years. The extensions under Bill C-9 that you mentioned are still temporary and limited in time. We find that small changes that are permanent have a bigger impact than big changes that are limited in time, if that makes sense.
Senator M. Deacon: It does. Thank you very much.
I think all the senators around the table have beaten the concept of transparency to the wall in trying to understand what the gaps are and why some areas can have fiscal prudence and regular reporting and others cannot. You responded partially to Senator Galvez’s question; if we could get that right, I know that everybody around this table would be much more understanding and happier with the transparency.
I will focus on a comment made a few weeks ago when you said the government could increase annual spending, reduce taxes or a combination of the two to the tune of $19 billion and still reduce the debt-to-GDP ratio over time to our pre-pandemic levels.
I was hoping we could elaborate on that. If the current crisis continues unabated and the federal government decides it best to increase spending and support individual Canadians and businesses in different ways, what are the results? This is a carry-on from the last question. Would the damage from cutting off the support systems, if they are still needed, be worse than the damage of more government spending to support Canadians most impacted by the pandemic?
Mr. Giroux: That’s a difficult question to answer in a short period of time. With respect to cutting support to individuals and businesses if the pandemic continues, would that do more damage than the amount saved by not providing these supports? That’s a very difficult question to answer. Most specialists, commentators and bright minds who have put their heads to that issue would argue that it’s probably worse not to provide support than to provide support and pay the costs later on. It depends on the magnitude of the support you’re providing, the format in which you’re providing the support, and whether this creates disincentives to work beyond what is absolutely necessary to support people through the pandemic.
This is a difficult question to answer because it’s all in the abstract and it’s making a series of assumptions as to what would otherwise happen in the absence of support. It goes beyond dollars and cents. It also goes to the distress that not providing support would cause — the mental health stress and the human cost of personal bankruptcies as well as business bankruptcies. That’s an area way beyond my area of expertise.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you.
Senator Boehm: Thank you, Mr. Giroux, for joining us again today and bringing your team with you.
I wanted to explore an area with you. I had asked Minister Freeland a question when she appeared before this committee with respect to the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy program, and in fact some other countries — as you had mentioned before — are looking at our programs, while some have been looking at that one in particular.
My question was premised on the fact that some of the larger Canadian corporations had taken advantage of the program and had rehired employees — but then, because of changes in the marketplace, had to let them go again. I’m thinking in particular of the airline sector and our two largest airlines, Air Canada and WestJet.
Since spending for the wage subsidy program is not included in these supplementary estimates, has the PBO been able to monitor the rate of success from such a program, or other programs that are put forward and employed by the government? I know this is much in line with questions that my colleagues have asked, but do you have anything on the wage subsidy specifically?
Mr. Giroux: Not to my knowledge, senator, and that goes back to the root of my comments where I said that the biweekly reports to the committee of the other chamber were helpful in that they allowed us, the office and parliamentarians to get a sense of the utilization rate of these various programs. In the absence of these biweekly reports, or that information being published in one place for parliamentarians and Canadians to use, it’s difficult to assess that.
We’ve tried to assess the costs using a series of assumptions, and revising and updating the cost estimates that we have provided when more information comes in publicly; for example, when we get Labour Force Survey updates with the revised estimates with respect to the number of jobs or the unemployment rate, we sometimes revise the estimates of these programs. But in the absence of real-time or close-to-real-time information on the use rate of these programs, it’s very difficult to make that assessment — whether they are being fully used, partially used or barely used.
Senator Boehm: Just to follow up on that, I can understand you don’t have the empirical evidence that you need, but in the models you are developing, would you say the wage subsidy program has been successful? Can you go that far?
Mr. Giroux: From the first part of the pandemic, before September, it was a program that was not as utilized as we initially expected. For example, when it was initially announced in the spring, the utilization rate was surprisingly low from our perspective, and we had to revise our estimates down. We don’t know yet if there has been a significant uptick since our last assessment.
So it was surprisingly low in terms of update for the wage subsidy. Maybe things have picked up. Personally, I have not looked at that in several weeks.
Senator Boehm: Thank you.
Senator Duncan: I’d like to ask the Parliamentary Budget Officer about an item in the report of November 4. Straying from COVID-19 for a brief moment, there is additional funding that is non-COVID-19 measures. I’m interested in the $585.2 million to the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat for the public service insurance plans and programs. That additional money that’s required is a requirement of the plan; it’s a union-negotiated agreement that the government will contribute a specific portion. It’s kind of a challenge for every provincial and territorial finance minister when that bill has to be added into the budget.
These plans are overseen by a joint management committee of employees and the employer.
I think there is also a wealth of information there that could be investigated by the Parliamentary Budget Officer, so I’m interested in whether you have done any work on this insurance — on these plans — if there has been a look at them or a look at the joint management committee reports. I’m particularly interested in the additional funds — are they required because of an increase in the cost of claims or an increase in a particular type of claims? For example, if it’s because there is an increase in post-traumatic stress claims or repetitive claim injuries, I’m interested in what steps the employer is taking to combat those injuries.
I understand this is down in the weeds, but it can reveal a great deal of information in terms of our public sector and Canadians in how we’re pivoting in the new world of work and what costs we might see coming in the future. I’m looking for more information on that. If you would prefer to respond in writing, that would be fine.
Mr. Giroux: Thank you, senator. I don’t have that information handy, so it would probably be best to answer you in writing as a follow-up.
With respect to the administration of these benefits, I haven’t looked at that specifically, but as part of my previous life as a public servant, I served on the partners committee for a year or two. I can speak from that experience that the management of the plan could probably be tightened, to be diplomatic. There is probably scope for improvement there, but that’s just speaking from a very high level and short experience.
Senator Duncan: That $585.2 million is still a lot of money. In your investigation or response, would you also care to offer an opinion as to where those cost savings might occur or if we might anticipate future increases?
Mr. Giroux: I can certainly provide the information you’re seeking. Whether that information will also include an opinion as to whether there will be savings will depend on the information we get from the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat, which administers these. If you want to talk, I’d be happy to have a discussion with you, senator.
Senator Duncan: Thank you very much.
Senator Loffreda: Thank you, Mr. Giroux and your team, for being here.
There has been a lot of discussion today by you and senators on the lack of data and the lack of information and transparency on government spending and other Crown corporations, besides the Bank of Canada. But as they say, one of the most powerful words in the world is “why.” In your judgment, why is that the case?
You also expressed what you would like to see to better monitor the spending. You mentioned you made those recommendations to government, and they suggested it was not possible at this point in time and that it might be possible in the long-term future.
The other point is — and in this short period of time, I don’t want you to mention again all those suggestions or recommendations you made, but I’d like to have them in writing to strongly recommend — and maybe we as senators could strongly recommend — that they follow your recommendations and complement those recommendations to have proper financial reports and data so we can make the proper decisions and monitor all the government spending going forward, and follow up with it. We never plan enough or follow up enough — and this is all of us, all corporations and all individuals. We can always plan better, plan more and follow up more. “Why” is such a powerful word. Thank you.
Mr. Giroux: Thank you, senator. I can certainly follow up in writing as to potential legislative amendments. I can send you a copy of the letter I sent to the Leader of the Government in the House. I’d be happy to do that.
With respect to the first part of your question as to why we don’t have the same level of information we used to with respect to COVID-19 spending, I can only speculate. But when you’re the government, you’re busy implementing a bunch of programs and measures, and reporting on a biweekly basis on the progress and the amounts being spent is probably quite demanding. I can easily understand that, for public servants and ministers who have to collect that information, approve it and put it on the website, it requires a bit of investment in time.
But as I said in my opening remarks, if my office can do a type of monitoring that’s not as frequent as that of the public service with two analysts — and you are seeing them on the screen — I think the public service could probably do that by sparing a couple of people and allocating their time to providing information to parliamentarians and Canadians on spending that is in the dozens of billions per year.
Senator Loffreda: Mr. Giroux, during our last discussion, we were both concerned with the level of household debt in Canada. You did mention we were one of the most generous with respect to COVID subsidies and grants and support.
Elaborate on the level of household debt at this point in time. Will we recover more quickly than other countries because we have been more generous? Do you feel, in your judgment and based on what you’ve seen, that will have a quicker recovery? Obviously, we can’t increase taxes, so household debt will still be high. I would like you to elaborate on all of that. Thank you.
Mr. Giroux: That’s an interesting point, senator. What we have seen in stats released by Statistics Canada is, on the one hand, income from employment or own sources going down. Income that individuals and households earn has gone down, but disposable income has gone up. So there’s a big disconnect. On the one hand, market income has gone down but disposable income has gone up, and the gap is being made up by government transfers, which is rarely seen. Usually when there’s a recession, market incomes go down and disposable income goes down, but slightly less than market income because of support from government programs.
Whether we will do better than other countries as a result of this high level of support remains to be seen. The level of rebound in the economy will depend in large part on people feeling safe and secure to resume life as they knew it pre-pandemic.
If people still feel unsafe going out and about, dining out and travelling, then I don’t think we will see the same level of activity and that we will be further ahead than other countries. That will depend, as I said, on how people feel, if they feel confident to go out again and spend again.
The level of household debt has probably gone down. I don’t have the numbers off the top of my head. We have seen savings rates spike not only in Canada but in most other developed economies as a result of the uncertainty and also, to be honest, the lack of opportunities to spend. We can’t travel, we can’t go out as much as we could, so people are saving more than they used to.
Senator Loffreda: Thank you.
Senator Smith: Thank you to you and your group, Mr. Giroux, for being with us.
In listening to the questions and listening to your feedback, how do you see this unfolding in terms of the economic report if there is no fiscal anchor? What type of fiscal anchors or what types of options would you see the government having if they’re hesitant to implement these types of measures? How do you see the impact, and how does it play out if you had to be the person making the analysis? What sort of crystal ball outlook would you provide in terms of how this plays out for big business, small business and for Canadians? How do we move forward? How does this unfold, based on your expertise and the expertise of your group?
I know it’s an open-ended question. It is a crystal ball, but if there’s anyone who can provide it to us, it would be yourself and your group.
Mr. Giroux: Thank you, senator. In the absence of a fiscal anchor, the consequence is that financial markets, other levels of government and, generally speaking, all actors in the country — Canadian citizens, businesses, financial markets — don’t know exactly what is going to be the future direction of the government. The absence of a fiscal anchor can be equated with uncertainty. There’s no clear path forward for the government’s finances. That’s a big question mark for financial markets when they think about Canada and its future direction. That’s why fiscal anchors serve a very useful purpose. They provide a sense of direction and a sense of cohesion.
I’m not advocating for one specific type of fiscal anchor, regardless of whether it be a balanced budget come hell or high water, as we had in the late 1990s, or a declining debt-to-GDP ratio or a certain level of growth in expenditures, but something that can anchor expectations. So what is the government going to look like as an aggregate over the next couple of years?
I’m not the only one advocating for fiscal anchors. My predecessor was also advocating for fiscal anchors for the same reason as I mentioned. It provides a sense of direction. What is the priority, and where is the government headed in a very general sense? Are we headed for very tight fiscal discipline, are we headed for mild discipline or are we headed for no discipline at all? I don’t think it’s the latter, but questions could be asked in the absence of a fiscal anchor.
A fiscal anchor also makes the life of cabinet, as a decision-making body, a little easier when deciding which priorities to focus on and which ones to push back to later, because the pressures on the executive, on cabinet, and on the Minister of Finance must be immense right now.
Senator Smith: Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Forest: Here is my second question. We are talking about budgets. It is an increasingly important subject that the Minister of Finance is often asked about. I’ve been in the Senate for almost four years and I’m always amazed at our budgetary process. The main estimates are tabled, and then a few months later, the supplementary estimates come in. We were talking about fiscal anchors, but in the course of the budget process, does Treasury Board give all the departments targets to achieve, such as to limit spending growth to 1% or 1.5%?
When I was mayor of Rimouski and we issued the directive to produce a budget, according to the law, we had to produce a balanced budget. We then provided budgetary objectives. Wouldn’t there be a way to improve the budgetary process in the federal government?
Mr. Giroux: Of course, there would be very good opportunities to improve the budget process. We could talk about it all day long. Going back to your question about whether Treasury Board, the Department of Finance or the Privy Council Office give specific objectives to departments, in my experience — and I’ve worked on about 20 budgets — the answer is no, with a few rare exceptions. For example, in 2011-12, there was an expenditure reduction exercise. The government then looked at overall spending and asked departments and agencies to develop spending reduction scenarios on the order of 5% and 10%. The same type of exercise occurred in the mid-1990s. Apart from these two major exceptions, generally speaking, the exercise is based on the previous year’s data, and rather than wiping the slate clean, restarting or seeking to eliminate certain programs, there are additions. Usually there are additions from year to year. Very rarely do we look back on programs that we have to abandon, except for those that are coming to an end, of course. Generally speaking, we just add a layer each year, to express things in a general way and in layman’s terms.
Senator Forest: In the current context, in my opinion as a manager of public funds, with the debt that we will have to assume, especially if there is a rise in interest rates, it is completely irresponsible to never set guidelines in a budget exercise. If I had proceeded this way with the City of Rimouski, I would not have obtained several mandates.
We have a moral responsibility and a responsibility for efficiency, since we are dealing with public funds. We must reflect, analyze and take responsibility for our budget choices in a very historic context. The scale of the measures put in place to support Canadians most at risk is extraordinary.
Mr. Giroux: With the advent of telework because of COVID and the fact that many thousands of public servants have been unable to perform their duties for periods sometimes longer than a few days, many ministers will wonder if they need all of these services, all of the things that exist in the arsenal of the public service, including office space with lots of people who will prefer to work from home. I am not going to say any more, because I see that the chair probably has other senators on the list who want to ask questions.
Senator Forest: It would be interesting if we could take a day to talk about that.
[English]
Senator Marshall: Thank you, Mr. Giroux.
This is something that I’ve been working on myself and I’m sure Mr. Stanton won’t be surprised by my question.
Where the government is not providing a lot of financial information, is it possible to determine the amount of the supply bill that has to come so we have a supply bill for all of the Main Estimates?
I don’t know if I’ve expressed myself properly or not, but we have the supply bill for each of Supplementary Estimates (A) and (B), but what’s in Supplementary Estimates (A) and (B) shouldn’t cross over into Main Estimates, I wouldn’t think. Is it possible to calculate the next supply bill that we’ll see so that government has all of their Main Estimates money supply?
Mr. Giroux: Senator, to answer that question we would need to know what the government is planning and has not yet announced. The government won’t reveal these types of things to me, to say the least, so to know what will be in Supplementary Estimates (C), we need to know what it is that the government is working on and has not yet announced, or what it is that the government plans on spending that it has announced but for which costs are more important than we expected.
I cannot provide that type of analysis or information. Only the government can because they know what they have in the works and what they plan on doing between now and March 31, and I don’t.
Senator Marshall: If we put Supplementary Estimates (C) aside, is it able to determine how much of a supply bill we need in order to get all the money that’s been earmarked in Main Estimates?
Mr. Giroux: The mains are the basis and then Supplementary Estimates (A), (B) and (C) are in addition. So you cannot really start from Main Estimates and try to determine how much you will need in Supplementary Estimates (C) to get to Main Estimates. The Main Estimates are the first layer, the bigger layer, and then Supplementary Estimates (A) are in addition to, Supplementary Estimates (B) in addition to, and Supplementary Estimates (C), again, in addition to, generally speaking.
Senator Marshall: All right.
Mr. Giroux: Are you confused yet, senator?
Senator Marshall: No, I’m not. I can follow you. Thank you.
The Chair: Before we conclude the first panel, Mr. Giroux, I want to take this opportunity to say thank you very much to you and your team. You have always been available upon request to come to the Finance Committee.
[Translation]
We greatly appreciate that, as well as your professionalism.
[English]
You also said that further information will be provided in writing. Without a doubt, our clerk will be contacting your office so that we can have the information in writing on an expedited basis so we can meet our target with the Senate of Canada in tabling our report.
Also, as I conclude, you have heard me before as chair saying that our committee’s motto is all about transparency, accountability, predictability and reliability. You’re a great help in having our committee meet its objective.
Honourable senators, for our second panel, from Transport Canada, we welcome Ryan Pilgrim, Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services; he is accompanied by Kevin Brosseau, Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security; Anuradha Marisetti, Assistant Deputy Minister, Programs; and Lawrence Hanson, Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy.
We also welcome, honourable senators, from Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, Douglas McConnachie, Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Management Sector; he is accompanied by Stéphane Lagacé, Vice-President, Finance and Corporate Services, Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency; Margaret Buist, Vice-President Policy, Planning, Communications and NPMO, Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency; Guy Lepage, Vice-President, Corporate Services, Canada Economic Development for Quebec Regions; Lisa St-Amour, Chief Financial Officer, Federal Economic Development Agency for Southern Ontario; and Ryan Dunford, Director General, Policy, Planning and Analytics, Western Economic Diversification Canada.
Welcome to all the witnesses, and thank you again for accepting our invitation to be present at the National Finance Committee.
I have been informed that Mr. Ryan Pilgrim will make opening remarks, to be followed by Mr. Douglas McConnachie. Following your comments, we will then proceed to questions and your answers to the senators.
[Translation]
Ryan Pilgrim, Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Transport Canada: We are pleased to be here to discuss Transport Canada’s Main Estimates and Supplementary Estimates (B) for fiscal year 2020-21.
These estimates also include items for other organizations within the Minister of Transport’s portfolio, including the Federal Bridge Corporation Limited (FBCL), the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority (CATSA), Marine Atlantic Inc. (MAI), and VIA Rail Canada Inc.
Today’s meeting takes place amid unprecedented circumstances created by the global COVID-19 pandemic. The transportation sector across our country has been profoundly impacted. Funding provided through these estimates will support a wide variety of initiatives, and will enable the department to adapt to rapidly changing circumstances while continuing to deliver a high level of service to Canadians.
[English]
Through the 2020-21 Main Estimates, Transport Canada sought funding of $1.9 billion, including $726 million for operating expenditures, $150.6 million in capital expenditures, $791.3 million for grants and contributions and $231.6 million in statutory authorities.
Despite the impact of the pandemic, the department remains focused on delivering on its commitments and priorities. One such priority is the National Trade Corridors Fund, part of the Trade and Transportation Corridors Initiative, which was announced in November 2016. Funding for this program will support Canadian trade by strengthening connectivity between the various modes of transportation. It will also address the transportation needs of northern territorial communities and increase the resilience of the Canadian transportation system in a changing climate.
Similarly, funding is sought to protect Canada’s coastlines and waterways. This initiative is part of a Budget 2017 commitment, providing over $1.5 billion to Transport Canada and several other departments to implement the Government of Canada’s Oceans Protection Plan. This initiative will support the continued modernization and strengthening of Canada’s marine transportation system.
These estimates will also ensure the continuation of the Zero Emission Vehicle Infrastructure Program. This program enables the federal government to provide purchase incentives to Canadians in an effort to increase the adoption of zero-emission vehicles. This program demonstrates the department’s commitment to investing in a cleaner, more sustainable future by reducing our air pollution. It will also contribute to the commitment of climate accountability legislation and its net-zero target for greenhouse gas emissions by 2050.
[Translation]
Following the Main Estimates, Transport Canada is seeking additional funding of $517.1 million through the Supplementary Estimates (B), in order to move forward on several high priority initiatives.
One such initiative focuses on the need to keep our communities connected as a result of the pandemic. To ensure that Canadians continue to receive the food, medical supplies and essential goods and services they need, funding is sought for the provision of essential air service to remote communities.
Through a new contribution program, this funding will provide transition support to air carriers providing service to remote communities across the country’s provinces, territories and Indigenous communities.
To further support the delivery of essential services to our communities, funding is also being sought to ensure year-round ferry service to the remote community of Îles de la Madeleine. This funding will enable the purchase and refit of the MV Villa de Teror, which will provide an interim solution until a new replacement vessel being built by Davie shipbuilding is ready for service.
[English]
Transport Canada remains dedicated to the divestiture of its ports, which will support the most effective use of this infrastructure by local communities and clientele. As such, funding is requested in support of the Ports Asset Transfer Program. This funding will allow the department to continue reducing its role as the owner and operator of many Canadian ports, while ensuring that they continue to be operated effectively until the time of the transfer.
The aforementioned initiatives represent a small sample of those for which we are seeking funding through these estimates. This funding will enable Transport Canada to offer Canadians a trustworthy and dependable transportation system that has adapted to the pressures and uncertainty created by the pandemic without compromising the priorities and commitments that existed before its onset.
My colleagues and I will be happy to answer any questions that the committee might have.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Pilgrim.
Douglas McConnachie, Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Management Sector, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada: Honourable senators and officials, I am Doug McConnachie, Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister of the Corporate Management Sector at Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada. Joining me today are my colleagues from the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, the Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency, Canada Economic Development for Quebec Regions, the Federal Economic Development Agency for Southern Ontario and Western Economic Diversification Canada.
We are pleased to be here today to provide you with an overview of the $744.1 million in authorities that has been requested for the Regional Development Agencies, or RDAs as we call them, through the 2020-21 Supplementary Estimates (B), the majority of which is in response to the COVID-19 pandemic.
[Translation]
Canada’s regional development agencies are front-line practitioners in economic development in Canada. They help address key economic challenges by providing programs, services, information and advice that are well suited to the various regions. In recent months, the Prime Minister has announced a series of measures that will be implemented through the regional development agencies to help Canadians and Canadian businesses deal with the challenges posed by the COVID-19 pandemic.
[English]
These measures include the Regional Relief and Recovery Fund, the Canadian Seafood Stabilization Fund and the Women Entrepreneurship Strategy Ecosystem Fund.
These measures represent a combined investment of $1.6 billion in 2020-21. Of this total, $960 million was approved through the 2020-21 Supplementary Estimates (A), and the balance of $671 million is being requested through these Supplementary Estimates (B).
I will now provide a brief overview of each measure, starting with the Regional Relief and Recovery Fund.
The COVID-19 pandemic is significantly affecting businesses, workers and communities across the country. The government has recognized that some business owners and support organizations have not been able to access other federal emergency support measures. To address these gaps, $1.5 billion was announced for the RRRF. Of this amount, $600 million is included in these Supplementary Estimates (B) to further help businesses and organizations continue their operations, including paying their employees. This funding will also help to support projects by businesses, organizations and communities to prepare for a successful recovery.
I will now speak to the Canadian Seafood Stabilization Fund.
The COVID-19 pandemic has been challenging for fish and seafood processors, which are key to our economy, as well as the strength of our food system. The Canadian Seafood Stabilization Fund aims to provide $62.5 million to support the fishing, aquaculture and processing sectors, which are facing unprecedented financial hardship due to the pandemic. Of this amount, $56.8 million is included in Supplementary Estimates (B) for three RDAs, including the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, Western Economic Diversification Canada and Canada Economic Development for Quebec Regions.
Finally, the Women Entrepreneurship Strategy (WES) Ecosystem Fund was announced in response to the disproportionate impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on women entrepreneurs. The pandemic has severely affected sectors where women entrepreneurs are most present, such as retail, hospitality and food services. To address these realities and advance the economic empowerment of women, $15 million in additional funding was announced for the Women Entrepreneurship Strategy. This funding will be provided to select organizations that are currently recipients of the WES Ecosystem Fund to help women entrepreneurs through the COVID-19 pandemic.
[Translation]
In closing, I would like to reaffirm our commitment to the stewardship of public resources during these unprecedented times. The delivery of these important initiatives are supported by a strong internal control framework and robust practices for monitoring and reporting on COVID-19-related expenditures and to ensure that expected results are achieved for Canadians.
Mr. Chair, I would like to thank the committee for giving us an opportunity to discuss these requests with you today. My colleagues and I would be pleased to answer any questions that you may have at this time.
The Chair: Thank you for your statement, Mr. McConnachie.
[English]
Senator Marshall: My question is for Transport Canada. Mr. Pilgrim, in your opening remarks, you referred to the marine vessel MV Villa de Teror, and I see she was purchased by the government in September, so could you give me some information on her? Where was she purchased or from whom, and where was she in service? Could you provide that information as a start?
Mr. Pilgrim: I will start and then pass it over to my colleague Ms. Marisetti. We purchased the vessel from Spain, where it was in service of Viking Cruises, and it should be arriving in Canada in January, 2021, to enter into service shortly thereafter.
Senator Marshall: I was going to start talking money, now. The amount in Supplementary Estimates (B) is $180 million, but I think the purchase price was $155 million, so what is the difference? Is that taxes or other costs? What’s in the $25 million difference?
Mr. Pilgrim: It’s the costs to refit the vessel for Canadian requirements and some port adjustments to get the port ready to receive the vessel.
Senator Marshall: Is that the total cost to refit her, the $25 million? Do you think it will be done for that amount?
Anuradha Marisetti, Assistant Deputy Minister, Programs, Transport Canada: Of the total amount that’s over the purchase price of the vessel, there are, as my colleague Ryan Pilgrim mentioned, the costs of refitting it to bring it to Canadian waters, making sure it is winterized and making the adjustments to the port. Altogether, that is the difference. The repairs cost close to about $10 million, and the port repairs are also close to — I will give you the number in a moment, but the balance is that.
Senator Marshall: So the $180 million should do it? We’re expecting to see Supplementary Estimates (C) soon. What you’re saying is we won’t see any money in Supplementary Estimates (C), and we shouldn’t see money in Main Estimates next year?
Ms. Marisetti: Correct.
Senator Marshall: Where is she being refitted to?
Ms. Marisetti: Part of the refitting to make her seaworthy is being done in Spain, and then the rest of the work to winterize it will be done in Atlantic Canada.
Senator Marshall: Do you know which specific shipyard will do the rest of the work in Canada?
Ms. Marisetti: That’s to be worked out with the operator. There will be a competitive process to identify the shipyards that could do the work, and then the contracts will be awarded based on that by the contractor.
Senator Marshall: Thank you. The Main Estimates are down, and there have been two money bills that have gone through for your Main Estimates. Are you able to tell us how much of the money in your Main Estimates you have not received to spend yet?
Mr. Pilgrim: There is a bit of a holdback government-wide in the interim supply of 1%, so we have not received the full supply this year from the Mains, along with all of our other departments.
Senator Marshall: Do you know what the dollar amount is? I’m asking because I’m wondering if I can calculate it myself. Do you have the number? If you have the number, I should be able to get too.
Mr. Pilgrim: I will ask my folks to come back to you in a minute on that. I believe it’s 1% of the $1.9 billion. That’s what we still have not received, but I’ll confirm that number.
Senator Marshall: But you have the rest? It’s only 1% remaining?
Mr. Pilgrim: There is money sought through Treasury Board submissions, so there’s probably more detail regarding the exact number in the bank account.
Senator Marshall: If you can get me the number you have not received approval to spend, that would be great. Thank you.
The Chair: Mr. Pilgrim, make sure you relate this directly through the clerk as soon as possible. Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Forest: I will yield my speaking time to my colleague Senator Pat Duncan.
[English]
Senator Duncan: Thank you to Senator Forest for generously giving me his question. Thank you, Mr. Pilgrim, and the other officials, for your appearance here today.
Joe Sparling of Air North presented to the Senate Finance Committee on behalf of the Northern Air Transport Association earlier this year. His recommendations were included in the Senate Finance Committee report on COVID-19. In my speech at third reading of Bill C-9, I made reference to Air North and Joe Sparling’s request for cooperation instead of competition. This is a particularly important point for a number of businesses.
The federal transport minister, Marc Garneau, has announced his intention to develop an aid package for the airline industry, and in response to this, there was a Yukon regional air market fall 2020 update provided by Mr. Sparling. In it, he makes these arguments more eloquently than I can and with the numbers to support them. The executive summary will be submitted to all the members of the Finance Committee, as well as our witnesses today.
I’d like to focus on the money. Transport Canada is asking for nearly $116 million to provide essential air services to remote communities, and we have recently learned in the Yukon that NAV CANADA is considering potentially closing control towers at seven regional airports, including the international airport at Whitehorse, Yukon. Are any of the funds requested by Transport Canada being put towards ensuring these control towers remain operational to maintain safety in Canadian airspace, and if not, what does Transport Canada propose we do to keep the regional towers operational?
Mr. Pilgrim: Thank you for your question. I’m looking around the room to pass it to my colleague Mr. Hanson.
Lawrence Hanson, Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Transport Canada: The funding that is provided for, under the program that the senator references, is actually to provide support to airlines and to airports and not to NAV CANADA specifically.
The Chair: Senator Duncan, is that satisfactory?
Senator Duncan: I’m afraid not, Mr. Chair.
In that case, can Transport Canada advise me how we, and residents in the North, are to approach this issue of the closure of the control towers at regional airports, including an international airport in Whitehorse?
The Chair: Mr. Pilgrim, do you have any comments on that?
Mr. Hanson: Thank you very much. We are aware of the planning that NAV CANADA is looking at in terms of cost reductions. NAV CANADA is funded completely by the revenue it raises from doing air traffic control. Obviously, those revenues have collapsed, so they’re being forced to look at savings.
That being said, Transport Canada retains its regulatory responsibility for ensuring safe air travel, and the department will be working with NAVCAN to ensure that anything they do in response to the revenue reductions does not compromise the safety of air travel.
Senator Duncan: Mr. Hanson, thank you for that response. Am I hearing that, if required, NAV CANADA is going to receive funding from that $116 million that is pledged for essential air services to remote communities?
I understand your first answer; I just need the assurance that we’re going to maintain these airports.
Mr. Hanson: I cannot say that any of that $116 million is directed toward NAVCAN because it was not originally set up for that purpose. But Transport Canada will be ensuring that NAV CANADA does not take any actions that reduce the safety of air travel.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator Klyne: Welcome, witnesses. I have some questions of Transport Canada and ISED, so I will try to get through them quickly without preamble.
For Transport Canada, the post-pandemic economic recovery will depend upon the resumption of effective and affordable movement of people and goods. In the estimates on page 104, there’s $321 million attributed to the Green and Innovative Transportation System. Could you provide the committee with an overview regarding the projects contemplated by the Green and Innovative Transportation System? How will Canadians be better served, and will this system contribute in any way to Canada’s economic recovery? If it is a long answer, perhaps we can get it in writing.
Mr. Pilgrim: To respond to the prior question while I have the floor, it’s $416.9 million that we have not yet received from the Main Estimates, and this is due to the fact that the statutory items in our budget have not been voted on.
The Green and Innovative Transportation System item is a long answer. I could pass it to my colleague Anuradha Marisetti or come back with a written answer.
Senator Klyne: I will take it in writing, if I can, just to move on to another question.
Again for Transport Canada, I note that it appears the spend for the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority, or CATSA, will be up about $100 million over last fiscal, and the amount in Supplementary Estimates (B) is $45.6 million. Has there been a fundamental change for CATSA in carrying out its mandate to support funds requested in these estimates and the expected overall increase over the prior fiscal period?
Mr. Pilgrim: Thank you for that. CATSA’s core budget is fairly static, year over year. There was the idea that we were going to turn it over to a not-for-profit designated screening authority from its current situation. Due to COVID-19, that hasn’t happened.
The amount you’re referring to is for explosive-detection systems — it’s a capital project — to modernize the baggage-checking detection, to move it from a more manual current process to a more high-tech through-the-bag screening process.
Senator Richards: Thank you to the witnesses. I’m going to ask two or three quick questions.
Is there any indication of how many airports, especially in the regional areas, might not recover from this pandemic?
Second, regarding the initiative for zero-emission vehicles, how feasible is that at this time to be doing this? With so many of our population in dire straits, I’m wondering how feasible that is.
The third question is a quick question for the Atlantic representative. Campobello Island still does not have a ferry to New Brunswick, and they can’t put their feet on mainland Canadian soil; they have to travel through Maine. I find that it is not the best thing for citizens of our own country to have to do. They have no hospital there, and they have to shop and get gas in Lubec, Maine.
Is there a plan to get them a year-round ferry from Transport Canada or from a ferry service? Thank you.
Mr. Pilgrim: Thank you for the questions, senator. I will pass the first two to Mr. Hanson and the third to Ms. Marisetti.
Mr. Hanson: With regard to airports, it’s a good question, senator, because it is concerning. They are dependent upon revenues from improvement fees, and aeronautical revenues and services they provide to customers. Their revenues are way down.
We are working closely with all airports to have a good sense of their financial situation. I won’t pretend there are not difficulties for them right now. We focused on, first, making sure we understand — especially those who might be facing more immediate threats — and as for Minister Garneau’s statement on November 8, we are actively looking at a potential package of assistance that would include airports, noting that we had already provided some assistance to airports through our rent relief provided earlier in the year.
On zero-emission vehicles — also a good question — we had an initial period in this program where takeup was faster than we would have projected, which was great. It has slowed down as a result of the pandemic. I think in the May-to-October period, it’s probably 20% down year over year. We are hopeful, though. We are still seeing uptake and are still using the incentive. People are still taking advantage of it, and we think that’s why we need additional funding for it inside the estimate process.
The Chair: For the last question that was asked, Ms. Marisetti, can you please answer Senator Richards?
Ms. Marisetti: Thank you, senator, for the question. What Transport Canada provides through our contribution program is that we support three interprovincial ferry services in Eastern Canada, between Îles de la Madeleine, Quebec, and Souris, Prince Edward Island; between Saint John, New Brunswick, and Digby, Nova Scotia; and between Wood Islands, Prince Edward Island, and Caribou, Nova Scotia. We own the six terminals and four vessels that provide that service.
The port the senator referred to is not one of those three ports; the service we provide is through those places I just indicated.
So if further clarification to the question is required, I’m happy to provide that.
Senator Richards: Can anything can be done for those 800 citizens who have to travel through a foreign country to get to their own homeland?
Ms. Marisetti: We’ll take that question back for consideration in the department, but right now the service we provide is for those areas. I am wondering what kind of service the senator is seeking for that community.
Senator Richards: A ferry service, madam. Thank you very much.
The Chair: Mr. Pilgrim, could you please take notice of that question and, for clarification, could you and Ms. Marisetti send additional information in writing?
Mr. Pilgrim: Definitely.
Senator Smith: I have a question for Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada. According to an article in Maclean’s, ISED instituted a competition over the summer which required a winning bidder to “undertake analysis of key strategic industrial sectors at a national and international level, model scenarios and spark ‘big ideas’.” This contract, which seeks to model the impacts of COVID-19 on our economy, identifies areas of vulnerability as well as new opportunities.
Could you please elaborate on the process of a $0.5-million contract, which was awarded to the consulting firm of McKinsey, and are there areas of the economy that this government is taking a closer look at in terms of identifying vulnerabilities, as well as new opportunities?
Mr. McConnachie: Thank you for the question. The contract in question was awarded to McKinsey, as the honourable senator had indicated, through a competitive process that we initiated and was let through a standing offer that was already processed at Public Services and Procurement Canada.
The nature of the contract, as the senator indicated, was to advise both the department and the industry strategy tables that were established to provide advice to the minister and government officials, effectively, in response to the COVID-19 crisis.
While the department has significant policy capacity with respect to industrial policy and competition policy, we really do need the support of external experts that have a global perspective and are able to bring to bear significant resources to help us provide advice in a time of crisis, and that was the nature of that contract.
[Translation]
Senator Dagenais: My first question is for Mr. Pilgrim. Mr. Pilgrim, I’d like to talk to you about Canada’s airports. We know that having fewer planes in the air means lower revenues for airports, and we don’t know for how long.
The privatization of airports in large cities surely represents a new issue with the pandemic. I am concerned. I come from the Montreal region and we recently learned that Montreal’s Pierre Elliott Trudeau International Airport would be unable to fulfil its responsibilities in the development of the famous high-speed train. It is under construction and would allow users to access the airport more quickly. But the airport can’t generate the funds needed to build the terminal.
If airport operators do not have the same financial means for the next few years, how are you going to help them in concrete terms? Have you ever considered the possibility that the government might take over these airports?
[English]
Mr. Hanson: I believe the senator is referring to the station for the REM train that’s supposed to go to the airport. We are aware of the situation and the challenges that the Montreal Airport is having in terms of being able to fund the station. We are actively discussing the issue with the airport and with the province as well.
On your broader question, this is not really necessarily looking at an overall governance change on airports. The largest airports in Canada are generally federally owned airports that are leased to non-profit entities, the airport authorities, and that is the case of REM.
The senator is correct. There is a significant revenue challenge at airports right now. We have taken initial steps already, as I indicated earlier, with rent relief, and we are actively discussing the situation with the REM station with the airport at present.
[Translation]
Senator Dagenais: I now have a question for the representative from Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada. In the economic stimulus budgets, about $100 million more is earmarked for the Community Futures Network. That’s a budget envelope for about 267 not-for-profit organizations that will have access to loans or assistance for businesses in their communities.
What proportion of this envelope will go to the administration of these projects, and how much of this investment will actually be left for local enterprises?
[English]
Mr. McConnachie: Thank you very much for the question. As the honourable senator indicates, a significant portion of the RRRF is being flowed through the Community Futures development corporations, principally due to their proximity to the local business economy. While the RDAs have a very close touch with organizations around their territory, the Community Futures development corporations offer an even more precisely tailored and local approach.
The funding provided to those corporations is through grants and contributions, and the vast majority of it is meant to flow through to their client organizations. I would have to get back to the committee with the exact breakdown of any costs associated with administration, and I would be pleased to do so as a follow-up if that’s helpful to the committee.
The Chair: In writing, sir?
Mr. McConnachie: Certainly.
[Translation]
Senator Dagenais: Thank you. I have no further questions.
Senator Galvez: My first question is for Transport Canada officials. Transport Canada is asking for more than $54 million to promote the purchase of zero-emission vehicles. What form will this assistance take? Will it be provided directly to consumers, or to dealers? Will it be in the form of a loan or grant? Will there be a breakdown by province?
[English]
Ms. Marisetti: Thank you for the question. The way the program is run right now is it’s a point-of-sale reimbursement, so in this case, to put it simply, when an individual buys a zero-emission vehicle from a dealer, the dealer provides that rebate to the individual and then claims that rebate as a grant from Transport Canada. There is an online form, they fill it out and send it to us and then we disburse a grant based on the vehicle purchased. It’s done in the form of a reimbursement.
Senator Galvez: In the provincial distribution?
Ms. Marisetti: Yes. In terms of the provincial distribution, more than half of the vehicles that are sold and are eligible and have used the rebate are from the province of Quebec. The second-highest number is from the province of British Columbia, and the third highest is from the province of Ontario.
Going back to my data of the end of September, close to 55% was reimbursed to dealers in the province of Quebec, followed by about 30% in British Columbia, and other provinces are lower than that.
Senator Galvez: Thank you. My second question is to Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, and it’s with respect to the Women’s Entrepreneurship Strategy Ecosystem Fund.
What is the format of this aid? Is it a loan, a pension or is it to reimburse expenses? Does some part of it go to administration or not? Are there some criteria to give these funds, and how many women-owned businesses have been supported?
Mr. McConnachie: Thank you very much for the questions.
The funding that was provided for the Women Entrepreneurship Strategy Ecosystem Fund is flowed through to not-for-profit organizations that are already part of the WES ecosystem. As the honourable senators is likely aware, we do have other programming in the Women Entrepreneurship Strategy. In order to rapidly deploy the funds, the decision was taken to not have an open call for proposals but to use the existing available capacity.
To date, 39 organizations have received funding through this. It is to effectively support their own capacity to carry out initiatives within their own territories.
I hope that answers the question.
Senator Galvez: Could you give me the provincial distribution?
Mr. McConnachie: Certainly. I don’t have that information today, but I would be very pleased to follow that up in writing.
Senator Galvez: Thank you.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you very much for being here, and for the incredible information this afternoon.
First, to Transport Canada, my question, like those of my colleagues, concerns airports and how they are being affected at this moment by the pandemic. I haven’t seen any information thus far at the Canadian side of things, but we know that flights in the United States have risen to — as we’re told — pre-pandemic levels, and airports are operating at what one would assume is fairly close to full capacity.
Has flying in Canada returned somewhere on that scale, hedging toward normal, or are we still hesitant to get on an airplane at this moment in time?
Mr. Hanson: Thanks for the question. The answer is really “no.” Air traffic travel is still way down in the range of 85% to 90%. There has been, as you say, a larger rebound in the United States. Obviously, we’re in the midst of watching some significant air travel right now. I wouldn’t go by this current week, obviously, because of Thanksgiving, but you are correct that it has recovered at a rate much higher than that of Canada.
Senator M. Deacon: Regarding the $12 million request for funding to deliver better service to air travellers, I didn’t see KPIs or spending items down there that were too specific. What, more specifically, might this money go to?
Mr. Hanson: I can answer that.
As Ryan mentioned earlier, Budget 2019 had announced an intention for us to transfer CATSA to a private, not-for-profit organization. Whenever you do a commercial negotiation like that, you usually put in place a sum of money to support due diligence for them as they look at the potential sale. Then, if the sale goes through, ultimately, that money is not paid, but if the government were to break the discussions, let’s say, it serves essentially as a contingent liability.
Senator M. Deacon: Okay.
Mr. Hanson: So it was not for CATSA. Maybe I’ll expand, because that probably leaves you on your appetite a bit.
To be clear, that funding was not specifically for CATSA operations. The more important things for CATSA operations that Ryan was speaking of were for the explosives and for the reprofiling of money for full baggage screening.
Senator M. Deacon: Okay, thank you for that additional piece. I appreciate that.
My second question is to ISED. In anticipating a post-COVID world, hopefully sooner than later, government investments will, of course, be under increasing pressure and scrutiny. What analyses are you considering or have you done to understand which forms of government investments — for example, through different programs and in different RDAs, like Western Economic Diversification Canada, FedNor, Business Development Bank of Canada — are most effective in achieving our various KPIs that are important to continue sustained, hopeful future economic growth? Some examples are export sales, digital sales, how you qualify people, job creation, et cetera. I’m wondering what some of this thinking might be at this moment in time. Thank you.
Mr. McConnachie: Thank you very much for the excellent question. Certainly, the KPIs right now, I would suggest, are ensuring that there is survivability of the economy, both in terms of businesses and employees.
To speak more broadly than the measures that have been implemented by ISED and the RDAs, the government has injected significant liquidity into the economy to ensure that companies are able to meet their debt obligations, to pay non-deferrable fixed costs and to keep people gainfully employed through this period.
It’s reasonable to conclude that the pandemic will end and we will get back to some form of normality in the future. We will be looking to build back in a different fashion.
Certainly, I am aware that there are many discussions that are going on at both the political and bureaucratic levels about how to ensure that we have a sustainable economy going forward.
It’s again reasonable to conclude, although we don’t have any of the spending or authority requests right now, that we may, in the future, look to fund additional economic recovery.
Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator Boehm: I thank the witnesses for joining us today. I have a question for Transport Canada and one for ISED.
For Transport Canada, the National Advisory Committee on Immunization pointed to Indigenous peoples as a key group that should receive priority for the first COVID-19 vaccine. However, many of our Indigenous communities in the territories and in the North are located in very remote areas — and Senator Duncan has touched on this already — where the delivery of goods is done by air, especially in the winter months. I mentioned yesterday in my questions to the first panel the incredible logistical challenge of transporting and distributing the vaccine while maintaining temperature requirements. I understand that’s particularly true for the Pfizer vaccine.
Has there been any discussion as to how the air carriers might need to be transporting these vaccines, which are required to be transported at very specific temperatures?
I’ll go straight into my next question, just to maximize the time and allow people to think about it. The next question is for ISED. It’s sort of an ISED/IRCC question, but I would like an answer to it, obviously.
My question relates to the education-to-citizenship pathway that is so successful for many international students, at least in normal times. Recent international student graduates in Canada remain here on a visa issued through the Post-Graduation Work Permit Program, or PGWPP, and this is an open work permit that allows them to work in Canada for a period between eight months to three years after having graduated from a Canadian institution.
However, this visa is non-renewable. International students who are currently on the postgraduate work permit have found it extremely hard to find jobs due to the pandemic. This makes it difficult for some to remain in the country if they do not find a job.
In the supplementary estimates, funds are allocated to creating job opportunities for students as well as funding to support students and youth. Is there any intention to create opportunities specifically for those international students who recently graduated and who might not be able to find work?
Of course, those international students will eventually be replaced by others, and this is an important input into our society and our economy. Thank you.
Mr. Pilgrim: My colleague Kevin Brousseau will respond to this question.
Kevin Brosseau, Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Transport Canada: Thank you, Senator Boehm, for that question. There is no doubt, as you properly identified, about the logistical challenges associated with distributing vaccines across this country. The geography is extensive and intense, and a significant amount of planning needs to go into that, including discussions with the air operators, whether they be small operators that fly into northern communities or bigger ones that will travel internationally. That also includes the capacity to be able to carry vaccines at sub-zero temperatures, et cetera.
The work is largely being led intergovernmentally in terms of the vaccine distribution. Our civil aviation team has had some discussions with some of the carriers, but those discussions have only begun, as I understand it, but they are continuing to ensure that the supply chain is going forward.
I think that the broader answer will likely be provided by other departments who are leading the entire vaccine distribution rollout to ensure the supply chain, the distribution chain, et cetera, has the integrity to be able to deliver those vaccines to those communities.
Mr. McConnachie: I would not feel comfortable speaking to the measures that IRCC may be applying for new Canadians or those who are seeking to become new Canadians. I can certainly speak to the capacity investments of the ISED portfolio to support the educational community.
Supplementary Estimates (B) contain $450 million of funding to support research institutes and universities. That will be administered through NSERC, SSHRC and the granting councils. There is additional funding through ISED for a number of organizations, such as Mitacs. We have our Digital Skills for Youth Program, Computers for Schools Plus and a number of other programs, such as CanCode and other pieces that are readying students both in the secondary and post-secondary institutions for the workforce.
There is a significant amount of programming and investments that are in place. I hope that is helpful toward answering the question.
Senator Boehm: It would be great to know whether you are speaking with IRCC about this to connect the dots and to make sure that international students are covered. This was one of the issues that was raised with me by a students’ association this past week in a meeting. Thank you.
Mr. McConnachie: I would be happy to bring that back and, if we have additional information, provide it through the clerk.
The Chair: Thank you. We certainly will be waiting for information. Make sure that you connect with the clerk.
Senator Loffreda: Thank you to all of our panellists and their teams for being here today.
My question is for Innovation, Science and Economic Development. I would like to explore a little further a matter which we did touch on and that I have brought up during previous meetings. It’s a matter that’s very important. You did mention $15 million for the Women Entrepreneurship Fund. I strongly support the initiative. There are also amounts going toward the Women Entrepreneurship Knowledge Hub and the Women Entrepreneurship Strategy Ecosystem Fund. We see that in Supplementary Estimates (B). I know that this will offer much-needed timely support and advice for women who have been hit hard in this pandemic. We all know that at this point in time. They do need our help.
You did mention numbers. I think a number in itself doesn’t mean anything unless we compare it to an objective or compare it to a trend. Is this entrepreneurship fund meeting our objectives? Can you elaborate on how the fund is being used, how the dollars are being used and the resources are being used? Do you feel that it is exceeding objectives and expectations, or is the offer or the demand not there? What can we do to improve the status of women entrepreneurs in this country? Thank you.
Mr. McConnachie: Thank you very much for the excellent question, senator. I think what we’ve all come to realize, quite clearly, is that women have been disproportionately affected by the pandemic. There is ample evidence that both women in business who are entrepreneurs themselves and also women in the workforce have been greatly disadvantaged through this period.
The investments that we’re seeking through the Supplementary Estimates (B) are very much focused on women entrepreneurs, as the honourable senator pointed out. Absolutely, there’s a need to ensure that there’s access to liquidity, access to funding and additional supports — to ensure that entrepreneurial businesses that might not necessarily be eligible for funding through some of the large-scale initiatives managed by the ISED portfolio — are available to support those businesses and ensure that they continue.
Many of these businesses, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, are smaller businesses, such as restaurants, depanneurs, and smaller organizations, many of them family-owned. For that matter, we believe the funding to be appropriately targeted. I do think, to the senator’s question on results, it is a bit early to comment on whether these investments will bear fruit, given the fact that we are only requesting the funding now. Although we’ve been ramping it up, it is not yet fully spent.
With that in mind, we certainly believe that we have the right approach and that we’re working with partners in the not-for-profit sector that have intimate knowledge of the organizations that are in question as well as the distinct challenges that are faced by women. Thank you.
Senator Loffreda: I have one more quick question about the zero-emission vehicle program. We did touch on it, and there is $58.5 million in the Main Estimates for Transport Canada’s iZEV — zero-emission vehicles — program. You did give us an update, so thank you. But do you have numbers? How many Canadians have received this incentive? How many businesses? What has been the impact on EV sales in Canada? What are the anticipated GHG emission reductions?
In the Speech from the Throne, zero-emission vehicle affordability was an issue. We wanted to facilitate that, and there was an investment in charging stations across Canada. Are these funds going toward meeting these objectives? Are these objectives being met? Thank you.
Mr. Pilgrim: Thank you for the excellent question. I’ll pass this over to my colleague Lawrence Hanson.
The Chair: Mr. Hanson, if you don’t want to answer now, you can provide the information in writing.
Mr. Hanson: I can answer most of the question now if that’s helpful to the committee. As of the end of October, we were looking at 65,000 vehicles that have been purchased under the initiatives. Those are disproportionately from individuals and not businesses. If we look at an expected life cycle of those vehicles of 12 years, that comes out to GHG emissions of about 2.7 megatonnes.
The Chair: Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Forest: My first question is for Transport Canada. First, I would like to commend the initiative that made it possible to acquire the Villa de Teror to serve the Îles de la Madeleine. This represents a cost of $180 million, so I hope that good inspections were done to ensure the quality of the vessel because, in eastern Quebec, the F.-A.-Gauthier, a new vessel that was built in Italy, has been out of service two-thirds of the time since it was commissioned. This is quite worrisome. Perhaps it is the name Villa de Teror that intrigued me, but I hope that a good evaluation of the vessel has been done. I would also like to commend the initiative to build the next vessel, a project that will be entrusted to Davie. I’ll have another quick question to ask afterwards.
[English]
Mr. Pilgrim: Thank you for the question, senator.
We did do a thorough inspection. We sent a team to Spain to inspect the vessel from top to bottom before the purchase was made. The vessel is only a year or a year and a half old, so it’s quite new. Our team of experts did do a thorough inspection of the vessel before we committed to the purchase. Yes, we’re happy with the Davie selection as well.
[Translation]
Senator Forest: The Canada Economic Development for Quebec Regions programs do not have a sectoral strategic plan for the tourism sector. Programs have been put in place. Earlier you mentioned restaurants, small hotel complexes, in fact, everything in the tourism sector.
Under the Canada Economic Development for Quebec Regions programs, for which there is generally some flexibility, is there something akin to a sectoral strategy to safeguard our tourism industry pillars? I’m thinking here of patios, bars, restaurants and hotels. Across Canada, we’re talking about a huge number of small and medium-sized businesses that are very vulnerable in the current crisis.
The Chair: Who is your question for, Senator Forest?
Senator Forest: It is for the Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada representative.
Mr. McConnachie: I can respond, Mr. Chairman. That’s an excellent point. Certainly, small restaurants and all the small businesses across the country that support the tourism industry are one of our largest employers.
[English]
It’s also certainly an area that has been very hard hit by the pandemic. We are certainly conscious of the fact at ISED that there is a need for ongoing supports. I’m pleased to report that businesses in the sector have had access to the wide range of funding measures that the government has made available, but from a sectoral perspective, we do have an organization, Destination Canada, that is part of our portfolio that intimately studies some of the challenges. They have been engaged in providing policy advice to both our officials and our minister with respect to having a more elaborate strategy for the tourism sector as we move into the economic recovery.
The Chair: Thank you very much to the witnesses. Thank you for sharing your comments and answering the questions. It was very informative.
Honourable senators, this brings to a close the last meeting for today. Our next meeting is scheduled to be on Tuesday, December 1, at 12:30 Eastern Time, when we will have the Honourable Minister Jean-Yves Duclos, President of the Treasury Board, as our witness.
(The committee adjourned.)