THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AFFAIRS, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Wednesday, June 2, 2021
The Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology met in camera this day at 4:00 p.m. (ET), by videoconference, to study the subject matter of those elements contained in Divisions 21, 22, 23, 24, 28, 29, 32, 33, 34, 35, and 36 of Part 4 of Bill C-30, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on April 19, 2021 and other measures, and to study matters relating to social affairs, science and technology generally, as described in rule 12-7(9), then in public, to study Bill C-210, An Act to amend the Canada Revenue Agency Act (organ and tissue donors).
Senator Chantal Petitclerc (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
(The committee continued in camera.)
(The committee resumed in public.)
The Chair: We are pleased to welcome you to this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, which we are holding by videoconference.
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Thank you to the committee members who are here today. Forgive me for not introducing all of you, but I know we want to get right to the witness we have the pleasure and privilege of having with us today
[English]
Without further delay, we will begin our review of Bill C-210. This bill amends the Canada Revenue Agency Act to authorize the Canada Revenue Agency to enter into an agreement with a province or a territory regarding the collection and disclosure of information required for establishing or maintaining an organ and tissue donor registry in the province or territory.
[Translation]
Without further delay, I welcome the sponsor of the bill. We are pleased to welcome Len Webber, member of Parliament for Calgary Confederation.
[English]
Thank you for being with us. I invite you to make your opening remarks.
Len Webber, Member of Parliament for Calgary Confederation: Thank you, senators. It is an honour to be here virtually to speak to you about my private member’s bill.
I have been a long-time advocate of organ and tissue donation in Canada and was instrumental a few years ago in creating the organ and tissue donor registry in Alberta when I was an MLA.
Currently, there are about 4,600 Canadians awaiting an organ transplant. We need to do more to help them out. While 90% of Canadians support being an organ donor, only 20% are registered on their provincial or territorial registries.
I am proposing that we add a line to the annual tax form asking Canadians if they wish to register to become an organ donor upon their death. This is not about creating a national registry. It is about passing on information to existing provincial organ donor registries to finalize consent.
My private member’s bill is modelled on the successful inclusion on the tax forms of a question asking Canadians if they want Elections Canada to be kept informed of their current information. The tax form is the most widely annually distributed document in Canada. It reaches the most Canadians, the most potential donors.
The federal government already shares data with all the provinces and territories every day via encrypted networks using strong and reliable privacy safeguards. In addition, the existing infrastructure would support this change at virtually no cost. We would simply be transferring one more data field.
Using the tax form is a way to update this information annually via a legally binding document and strongly respects the fact that these registries are of provincial jurisdiction.
This is an incredible opportunity for both houses — the Senate and the House of Commons — to show leadership in organ and tissue donation efforts. Stakeholders have been universally supportive, and the thousands of affected families on waiting lists have welcomed this idea. This includes the family of Logan Boulet, the young hockey player who donated his organs after the tragic bus crash in Humboldt, Saskatchewan three years ago.
The House of Commons Standing Committee on Health intensively studied the issue of organ and tissue donation in 2018. Stakeholders unanimously called upon all parliamentarians to pass this specific legislation and said it would make a difference.
As you may recall, this proposal came to the Senate in the last Parliament as Bill C-316. Unfortunately, it died on the Senate Order Paper when the election was called in 2019. As a result, I reintroduced this bill in Parliament when I was fortunate enough to be picked number one in the lottery for private member’s business.
I have said before that my bill got a chance at a second life, and I hope passing this bill will give others that chance at life.
In both the last Parliament and this one, my bill was supported with seconders from all the political parties and passed unanimously at all stages. The government has indicated its support for this initiative long before it passed into legislation as well. In fact, as far back as 2018, in the Fall Economic Statement, funding has been allocated in anticipation of this bill passing, and that is quite unprecedented, I am told.
Senators, the reality is that everybody seems to have wanted this bill passed a long time ago, but it has been a very long road through this legislative process. With an average of five Canadians dying every week awaiting a life-saving transplant, I believe we have good reason to avoid further delays and ensure this bill passes before any future election is called.
I hope I can count on your continued support for this bill.
I want to sincerely thank Senator Stan Kutcher for his advocacy on this. He has been an incredible help to me. I also want to thank my sponsor in the Senate, Senator Leo Housakos, for helping me out as well. Thanks to the both of you.
I would be pleased to take any questions you might have. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much for your presentation. We do have some questions. We will begin with a deputy chair of this committee. Senator Bovey, do you have a question?
Senator Bovey: I do not, chair. Let’s move forward.
The Chair: Sounds good.
Senator Black, do you have a question?
Senator R. Black: Yes, I have a question.
Thank you very much, Mr. Webber. I come from a rural and agricultural background, which forms the lens through which I look at things in the Senate of Canada. Many rural Canadians find themselves struggling to access many services, including health services, compared to their urban counterparts. That’s not news to you, I’m sure.
Do you have any information on the number of Canadians in rural communities who require organ transplants? Also, how many rural Canadians might have signed up? I would take any information, even if you just have some thoughts.
Mr. Webber: Thank you for that question, Senator Black. I must say, I certainly don’t have those figures for you, but I do know that many rural and urban individuals are seeking transplants. It doesn’t discriminate, whether you’re rural or urban. All I know is that there are close to 4,600 Canadians waiting for a transplant from all over.
Senator R. Black: Thank you. I’m comfortable.
Senator Forest-Niesing: Thank you for appearing before us, and thank you for this initiative, which I was personally touched by in an earlier part of my life. I consider it incredibly important to have this kind of leadership and this kind of initiative.
In a presentation I was able to participate in this morning, a question was asked of you that, in light of your answer, provokes a further question in my own mind. Given the provincial jurisdiction of ultimately implementing all of this, and given that we know in Nova Scotia, the province has adopted a presumptive organ donation approach with the possibility for Nova Scotians to opt out — of course, that might be the preferred approach for some provinces but perhaps not for others — how do we deal with the potential patchwork from one province to the other?
I’ll immediately ask you my next question and let you expand according to what time allows.
My next question for you is with respect to this important measure coming to the attention of Canadians. Like most good measures, some sensitivity or marketing to Canadians has to occur. Education campaigns have to be implemented, and I understand you’ve testified previously to that effect. What is your vision of what that education plan would look like?
Mr. Webber: Thank you, senator, for your questions. I was also touched early on with a past experience, which has sent me down this path of being an advocate for organ and tissue donation.
With regard to provincial jurisdiction, yes, the registries and the management of the registries are provincial jurisdiction. Of course, as you mentioned, Nova Scotia has implemented the opt-out system in their province. That was relatively recent, so I am very much looking forward to hearing about the data and whether or not that has been a success for the province. I’m sure other jurisdictions around the country are also watching and listening to see how it turns out in Nova Scotia.
With regard to an education campaign, that is absolutely something that will be required. It is something that, again, provincial and territorial governments should put in place. I think of the Canadian Blood Services as well, which would put together a communication education-type campaign in order to educate Canadians about the fact that they can now use their tax form as a way to show their interest and their consent.
Senator Manning: I want to thank you, Mr. Webber, for your initiative on this very important issue. I wish you all the support that you need.
I have just a couple of questions. I’ve been very interested in organ donation myself. Over the past number of years, in Newfoundland and Labrador, we’ve had some promotion of that through some advertising and so on. Have you seen, across the country, an increase in those who are willing to fill out the form? In Newfoundland and Labrador, we can do it on our driver’s licence, as an example. I’m just wondering about the numbers. Have you seen an increase in numbers from those across Canada who have been willing to do so?
Right now, I think you mentioned we have 4,600 awaiting organ donations. I’m wondering about the wait time. Are there any stats on how long it takes? I think you mentioned that five people pass away every day. Those are startling numbers. I’m just wondering if you can touch base on that.
I’m just trying to find out how much interest there is across Canada and how much that interest has increased in relation to people willing to be organ donors.
Mr. Webber: Thank you for that, Senator Manning. I have to say that, yes, five people do pass away every week waiting for an organ donation. The wait time, of course, varies. This pandemic has certainly not helped matters at all either, with this being looked upon as an elective surgery, although I would imagine that people waiting on that list don’t see this as an elective surgery. There have not been any type of transplants during this pandemic, which is unfortunate.
With regard to the advertising, senator, I lost track with that first question you had regarding advertising for —
Senator Manning: Have you seen an increase of those willing to be organ donors across the country for the past number of years?
Mr. Webber: Right. I can say from personal experience, as an MLA, when I advocated for an organ donor registry in the province of Alberta, we did have it implemented, along with it being put on our driver’s licence as well. That was part of my bill. It was just very disappointing to see that still only about 20% of Albertans registered on our registry. That 20% has been the average percentage throughout the country, yet 90% of Canadians support organ and tissue donation. I see that as perhaps the difficulty of registering, the work that’s involved.
To have a box to tick off on your income tax form to indicate that you are willing and then to have that provincial registry contact you to do all the legwork, I think that would be much more successful than having individual Canadians take the initiative to actually sit down and fill out the paperwork.
Again, I’m disappointed with the turnout of Canadians and how they’re not registering on our registries. I’m hoping this will have an incredible impact in order to get their registries up.
Senator Omidvar: First of all, Mr. Webber, I want to congratulate you on your tenacity and your commitment. By all rights, this bill should have passed in the last Parliament, but this time it must and shall pass. It really must.
There’s a beauty to your proposal, using the income tax form, because all income-earning Canadians will fill it out. Since the government supports this proposal, have they given you an indication as to whether they are willing to collect the data about the demographic and regional particularities of people who say yes or who say no? That goes to education, because working in my province of Ontario, there is a huge problem with getting communities to sign on. If you have an evidence base, then you can design your outreach efforts a little bit more effectively.
Mr. Webber: Thank you for that, senator. Yes, absolutely, I certainly hope that this bill passes as well and passes quickly before an election is called.
With respect to the CRA and collecting information, yes, I have met numerous times with the CRA, more so in the last Parliament when I first brought this bill forward. They were very much in support of doing what they have to do in order to get this information passed on to the provinces.
Again, they already pass on information to the provinces with regard to Elections Canada. Basically, it is just the contact information of that tax filer who has consented to pass that information on.
Senator Omidvar: Mr. Webber, my question, though, was more about aggregated and disaggregated data. We know in Canada that after a number of years, when your bill has been implemented, for instance, more women tend to sign on than men, more urban tend to say no versus yes, more immigrant communities defined by race, that’s the kind of data I’m looking for. Is that a conversation you’ve had with the CRA, that they’re willing to provide this data?
Mr. Webber: No. To be honest, senator, I have not had any conversation with CRA regarding what you have pointed out, but I have met with different communities that have had some — I don’t know what the word is.
For example, with the Jewish community in Calgary here, I had quite a Town Hall meeting with them, with four rabbis and myself. We discussed organ donation, and it was quite a conversation. Traditional Jewish people tend to not want to donate their organs, whereas others have no problem with it. I know that the Indigenous community also has some aspirations towards organ donation. There has really been no conversation with the CRA regarding that.
It’s certainly up to each and every individual Canadian to determine and decide what they want to do, and I respect their wishes and desires, but there are people who are willing to donate, yet they have not registered. I’m hoping that this bill will get them registered.
The Chair: Thank you. We have one more question from you, Senator Munson. I will ask your indulgence in trying to make it short. We have limited time that we can extend this meeting, and I want to try to move us to clause-by-clause consideration, if that is at all possible.
Senator Munson: Thank you, chair. It won’t be a question. I’m simply here; I’m not a member of the committee. I’m here for moral support. Len is a great friend. I know what it’s like for the second time around, and I felt it important to come on the screen to show that kind of support. I know what second time around is about.
I just have a little observation, because the questions have been on communication. You know the Government of Canada and that cute little ad when you hear the sound at the end of it with the flag? During tax time, that’s an opportune time to put the message on organ donation and have that little sound. There’s a way to do this to get that message out. Good luck, MP Webber. That’s it.
Mr. Webber: Thank you, Senator Munson. I appreciate it.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Munson, for those kind words. Thank you, MP Webber, for being with us. It’s truly appreciated.
If it’s agreed, honourable senators, we will take a little more time in this meeting and we will proceed to clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-210, An Act to amend the Canada Revenue Agency Act (organ and tissue donors). Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Forest-Niesing: I have agreed to replace someone on the Transport and Communications Committee that starts at 6 o’clock, so I’m afraid I’m going to have to miss this, but yes to anything that supports this bill is my vote.
The Chair: Thank you, senator. Have a nice committee.
Senator Dasko: Senator Petitclerc, I am a member of the Transport and Communications Committee, and I have to attend that meeting as well. I hope this goes well. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you. Senator Manning, I assume you have the same message for us?
Senator Manning: Ditto.
The Chair: Okay. Dan, I want to make sure we still have quorum. I think we do, but we don’t want to lose anyone further.
Dan Charbonneau, Clerk of the Committee: Quorum is four.
The Chair: There we go. Are we ready to proceed? Shall the title stand postponed? Is that agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall clause 1 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall the title carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall the bill carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Does this committee wish to consider appending observations to the report?
Hon. Senators: No.
The Chair: Is it agreed that I report this bill to the Senate?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you very much, colleagues. It has been a very productive day.
Congratulations, MP Webber, for that next step. We’re quite pleased that we can help bring this bill to the next step and hopefully to the finish line.
Senators, we have concluded what we wanted to do today and the business for today. If there is no further business, senators, I will thank you and thank our team. This meeting is adjourned.
(The committee adjourned.)