THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Thursday, June 2, 2022
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade met with videoconference this day at 11:34 a.m. [ET] to study foreign affairs and international trade in general; and, in camera, to study the subject matter of those elements contained in Divisions 9, 18 and 31 of Part 5 of Bill C-19, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on April 7, 2022 and other measures.
Senator Peter M. Boehm (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: My name is Peter Boehm, I am a senator from Ontario and Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade.
Before we begin, I wish to introduce the committee members participating in today’s meeting.
[English]
The members of the committee are Senator Gwen Boniface from Ontario; Senator Mary Coyle from Nova Scotia; Senator Marty Deacon from Ontario; Senator Amina Gerba from Quebec; Senator Stephen Greene from Nova Scotia; Senator Peter Harder, deputy chair, from Ontario; Senator Stan Kutcher from Nova Scotia; Senator Michael MacDonald from Nova Scotia; Senator Victor Oh from Ontario; Senator Mohamed-Iqbal Ravalia from Newfoundland and Labrador; and Senator David Richards from New Brunswick. Also joining us today is our colleague Senator Ratna Omidvar.
I wish to welcome all of you, as well as people across Canada who may be watching.
Today we are conducting a hybrid meeting. I wish to remind senators and witnesses taking part by video conference to please keep your microphones muted at all times unless recognized by name by the chair.
I will ask senators to use the “raise hand” feature to be recognized. Those present here in the committee room can signal to the clerk their desire to ask questions or to comment.
[Translation]
If a technical issue arises, regarding interpretation in particular, please indicate it to me or to the clerk, Ms. Lemay, so we can resolve it quickly.
For the first part of our meeting today, we will once again discuss the situation in Ukraine.
[English]
You will recall that we have already held two meetings on this subject since Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24. On March 3, we heard expert testimony, and on April 28, we heard from the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Honourable Mélanie Joly.
Colleagues, tomorrow it is 100 days since this unprovoked invasion started, so it is a day to reflect. We are pleased to welcome, from the Verkhovna Rada, the Ukrainian Parliament, Chair of the Committee on Foreign Policy and Interparliamentary Cooperation, the Honourable Oleksandr Merezhko; and from the Embassy of Ukraine, we are delighted to welcome Ukraine’s Ambassador-designate to Canada, Ms. Yuliia Kovaliv. She is accompanied by the chargé d’affaires, Andrii Bukvych.
Welcome, and thank you for joining us. we are honoured to have you with us today. Mr. Merezhko will go first with opening remarks, followed by the ambassador-designate.
Mr. Merezhko, welcome, and please proceed.
Oleksandr Merezhko, Chair of the Committee on Foreign Policy and Interparliamentary Cooperation, Verkhovna Rada (Parliament of Ukraine), as an individual: Thank you so much, dear colleagues. I would like to start by expressing our most sincere and profound words of gratitude for your help and your support of Ukraine during these very difficult times and in our darkest hour. We appreciate your support and military aid, and the fact that you have recognized Russian crimes as a genocide of the Ukrainian nation. It is important for us and we consider you to be our true friend.
Dear senators, thank you for providing this opportunity to speak to you today. First of all, let me urge you to keep in mind that the Russian war against Ukraine is going on at this very moment. We can’t get used to this war. The world cannot and should not get used to this war, and so I urge you not to get used to this war and not to succumb to fatigue.
We must realize how absurd and outrageous this war is today, in the 21st century. It is literally a war of evil and tyranny against the peace and order that the world has agreed upon since the horrors of the Second World War.
Russia is preparing for a long-term war, constantly replenishing its occupation forces. Its current objectives are to occupy the entire territory of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, secure the land corridor to Crimea and complete the occupation of the southern part of Ukraine. Severe shelling and fighting continue in the Donetsk, Luhansk, Kharkiv, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions. Ukraine’s seacoast remains blocked.
President Lukashenko’s regime continues to provide logistical support to Russia without directly going to war.
As you know, the Ukrainian Army has managed to force Russian troops to leave the Kyiv, Chernihiv and Sumy regions. More than 1,000 towns and villages have been liberated by the Ukrainian army so far.
In regard to negotiations, they have been suspended in their political part but are ongoing with respect to prisoner exchanges and humanitarian corridors. Ukraine’s goal at the talks is to fully restore our sovereignty and territorial integrity within the internationally recognized borders of Ukraine.
Finally, Russia must be recognized as a state sponsor of terrorism and its armed forces as a terrorist organization, an organization of murderers and war criminals. This is perfectly in line with the principle of calling things by their names.
I will stop here, and you can listen to the brief by our ambassador, Yuliia Kovaliv, on the economic consequences of the war, those in place and potential ones. I will be happy to answer your questions afterwards.
Thank you so much for your attention.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Merezhko. Your comments are appreciated.
We will now turn to Ambassador-designate Kovaliv. You have the floor.
Yuliia Kovaliv, Ambassador-designate, Embassy of Ukraine to Canada: Dear senators, it’s an honour to speak to you. First, let me follow what Mr. Merezhko said by marking how important Canada’s support to Ukraine during these days is, and how we really appreciate all the efforts of the Canadian Parliament and Canadian government and what all Canadian people are doing to support Ukraine these days.
Tomorrow marks 100 days of Russia’s unprovoked war against Ukraine. That means 100 days of breaching international law and established order by a permanent member of UN Security Council, 100 days of human suffering, 100 days of destruction, and 100 days of war crimes committed by Russians in Ukraine.
Today I will focus on the humanitarian situation and the effect of war on the economy and food security.
The humanitarian situation is always painful to think about, to realize those facts, let alone to speak them out. Thousands of civilians have lost their lives, many were wounded. Most of the civilian casualties were caused by Russian shelling and air strikes.
Yesterday, we had a Children’s Day in Ukraine. Up until now, the lives of 243 children have been taken forever, 446 children were wounded and 139 are missing.
A devastating tragedy happened last week in Kharkiv. A family with a 5-month-old baby was walking in the street when shelling started. It took place in a residential area. There were no military objects in the neighbourhood. The father was killed at once. The child, whom he was holding with his hands, was thrown away by the shock wave and found dead. The mother was severely wounded.
These kinds of stories are numerous as attacks are taking place every day now, and for 99 days already.
More than 13,000 civilian infrastructure facilities have been destroyed, including over 200 schools, and 570 hospitals, roads and bridges. Nearly 220,000 people have lost their homes. There are 8 million internally displaced persons, and 6.8 million have left to go abroad. Just imagine if the entire population of the Greater Toronto Area left the country.
We appreciate the Canadian government’s and the provinces’ efforts to provide support to Ukrainians who are temporarily seeking shelter in Canada.
Over 500,000 Ukrainians have been deported to Russia, including children. This Tuesday, Russia officially announced the procedure of granting its citizenship to Ukrainian orphans. We consider those actions as an attempt to legalize the illegal transfer of Ukrainian children to Russia from temporarily occupied territories and actually legitimizing kidnapping.
And 1.4 million people have been left without running water across the war-affected eastern regions of Ukraine. In occupied Mariupol, there is a high risk of spreading infectious diseases.
Ukraine’s prosecutor’s office is investigating over 14,000 Russian war crimes. This is why we called for further supply of weapons to Ukraine: armed vehicles, LAVs , UAVs and artillery. Now is the time when military aid to Ukraine is the tool to save human lives and to stop further Russian atrocities. Timing is crucial here. Filtration camps organized by Russia in temporary occupied areas is another argument for military aid. The world can’t allow Russia to extend its control over Ukrainian territories, and the world needs to stop Nazi-style tortures of the Ukrainian civilian population.
The economic situation remains critical. A majority of businesses halted, and part of them have been destroyed. The GDP of Ukraine may drop by at least 30% or up to 50%. The monthly budget deficit is US$5 billion. Russia has destroyed 30% of Ukraine’s infrastructure. Overall economic losses can exceed US$600 billion.
The government is making every effort to keep Ukraine’s economy afloat by supporting the relocation of businesses from the war zone, by significantly cutting regulations and by restoring infrastructure in the liberated areas.
The unprecedented financial support by Canada of $1.87 billion is extremely valuable, and we thank you for that. It allows us to support the most vulnerable people and those affected by the war.
On the economic front, Russia’s war in Ukraine has already influenced the global economy, fuelling inflation through food and energy prices. We should understand clearly that Russia is responsible for that and is using both energy and food as a weapon, bringing economic consequences to the global growth perspective.
Today, the National Bank of Ukraine, in order to face inflation challenges, increased the bank rate to 25%.
On global food security, as I mentioned, Russia is using food as a weapon. Ukraine has always been the breadbasket of the world. We used to export more than 10% of the wheat, 14% of the corn and 47% of the sunflower oil in the world, and 90% of agri-products from Ukraine were exported through the seaports of the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov. On a monthly basis, it was from 5 million to 6 million tonnes.
With the seaport being blocked by Russia, we are facing a drastic logistical challenge and 22 million tonnes of grain remain blocked in the seaports. We are establishing alternative routes of export by railways and trucks to the western border of Ukraine, but the volumes are significantly lower. At the same time, Russia continues to destroy railway routes by multiple missile attacks.
The Russian blockade of Ukrainian seaports had already caused a significant increase in food prices, and is forecast at maximum for the last 60 years. That makes food non-affordable to many low-income countries. Famine could become a devastating reality for millions people in the world.
Russia is destroying our agri-infrastructure and stealing our grain and machinery. The six largest elevators in Ukraine have been destroyed, and 400,000 tonnes of Ukrainian grain crops was stolen, with the intention to sell them illegally abroad.
About 13% of Ukrainian territory is contaminated with mines and spilled fuel. We appreciate the decision of the Canadian government to donate $2 million to HALO Trust for de-mining efforts in Ukraine.
Yet, I have to say that despite of all the danger, Ukrainian farmers have planted 78% of the sowing areas. However, the yields will be significantly lower this year because of the shortage of fertilizers, seeds and diesel.
We call on foreign and Canadian assistance to deal with these urgent issues. This includes efforts to unblock seaports, to support agricultural export capacity with laboratories on the western border of Ukraine and establish agriculture storage facilities for the coming harvest.
Ladies and gentlemen, there were 99 days of Russian war against Ukraine, the real war, which is going on as we speak. Unfortunately, the atrocities have not stayed behind; they are still being committed now. We need military aid to stop Russian atrocities, to protect our sovereignty, borders and people. We need military aid to stop food crises that will have consequences far beyond Ukrainian borders.
Thank you, everybody, for listening and for having us today.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Ambassador-designate Kovaliv.
Colleagues, before I open the floor to questions, I want to remind all of you, and especially those who are participating remotely, to use the “raise hand” function so that you will be added to the list of questions that our clerk will manage.
I also wish to inform members that you will each have a maximum of four minutes for the first round; this includes questions and answers. As usual, try to keep your preamble short. That allows for more question time.
If you would like to direct the question, you should indicate whether it would be to Mr. Merezhko or the ambassador-designate. We are going to 1 p.m. today. I’m very confident that we will have time for a second round.
Senator Greene: First of all, I would like to say that Ukraine and Ukrainians are in my heart. What you are doing is miraculous and I thank you all.
We have to take into account where we are. We have had 100 days and it seems to me at this particular point in time, as a result of the media perhaps, that things aren’t going as well as they were on day 20. I wonder if we really are treating Ukraine the way we ought to be, because essentially we are asking Ukraine to fight with one arm tied behind its back and that the issue of no-fly should be on the table.
Do you think that you can win, or at least come to a respectable draw, without more strategic help, such as a no-fly zone being implemented?
The Chair: For whom is your question?
Senator Greene: To whoever would like to answer that.
The Chair: Perhaps we will start with Mr. Merezhko and then go to the ambassador on that one.
Mr. Merezhko: Thank you, dear colleagues.
It is a very important question to ask. In the beginning of the new, full-scale invasion of Ukraine by Russia, we raised this issue about a no-fly zone. We continue to raise this issue because it is important to us, first of all, to protect our civilian population.
Let me give you an example. Each day Russia kills several Ukrainian children. Each day. Each day Russia kills around 100 of our soldiers and civilians, and injures around 500 people. It happens each day.
Of course, we continue to have this need for a no-fly zone. But at the same time, I’m aware of the world political problems and restrictions related to this issue. And that’s why we are asking you to provide us with heavy weaponry, especially MLRS, which we need desperately to protect ourselves because Russia is using artillery in a very ruthless way.
Russia is killing our soldiers and civilians, and deliberately; it is not indiscriminate shelling. I want to emphasize this. It is deliberate targeting of civilians in Ukraine. To protect ourselves, we need heavy weapons.
Thank you.
Ms. Kovaliv: I mentioned earlier that most of the civilians who are killed by Russians were with missiles and air strikes.
If we remember that almost two months ago we were on the edge of the huge nuclear catastrophe when the Russians were striking at the biggest nuclear plant in Europe, which is situated in Ukraine. There was a fire in that place. Now Russians are controlling this, the biggest nuclear facility on the European continent.
That is why we are asking now for more military support and much braver and extended decisions for that, including the MLRS systems that are needed for us, first, to protect our territories and liberate the ones which were occupied by Russians within these 99 days of the war.
We already are getting NATO’s weapons and that makes for a big change on the front line. However, we need to understand that the war is going every day. And that is why the further, active and timely supply of further heavy weapons is essential for us.
The courage which the Ukraine people have shown to the world for these 99 days already is remarkable, how we are, all together, fighting for our land. But we cannot fight —
The Chair: Thank you, ambassador. I’m going to interrupt you on that because we have gone over four minutes. We’ll come back, of course, to these questions.
Senator Kutcher: Thank you both for being with us today.
It is clear that if Ukraine wins the war, there will be no more war. But if Russia wins the war, there will be no more Ukraine. So focusing on victory is essential. Thank you for providing us with clear suggestions about what needs to be done there.
My question is slightly different. We know the conflict, the longer it continues, it has the chance of destabilizing the global rule of law by its impact on what I call the three F’s, which are food, fertilizer and fuel, and has major implications. The solution here is really to quickly win the war.
Ambassador-designate Kovaliv, do you think that Canadians understand how problematic a long war will be for the whole world? And if not, what kinds of things could Canada do to try to focus our national attention on ending this war as soon as possible?
Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you, senator.
The food and energy security is now on the top agenda of discussions for the Ukrainian government, Canadian government and every other government. The fuel and energy security, especially in Europe, is another major issue.
I do think that everybody now recognizes these issues, because it is not only the point of Ukrainian security and the point of geopolitics. It is something that all people in Ukraine, Europe and Canada are already feeling.
With this Russian war that led to an increase in the prices for food, increased prices for fuel, fuelling inflation, Russia is responsible for everything, and we are combining our efforts to work together to stop Russia using this as another global weapon too.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator Kutcher: Mr. Merezhko, do you have any suggestions for us on how our government could sensitize and socialize these ideas for Canadians so they would be more emphatic that the war needs to end soon and not continue for another 100 days?
Mr. Merezhko: First of all, I already see that Canadians understand perfectly well what’s going on in Ukraine. They understand what’s happening. We are grateful for that. But, of course, we need more support.
You can imagine that we are fighting against a very strong enemy. Sometimes we are outgunned. I’m appealing to all people in Canada to support us because, by supporting Ukraine, they support the global order. They support international law. They support a world of democratic states. We shouldn’t allow Putin to win this war because the price will be too heavy.
We have acts of genocide. What might happen? The Ukrainians might disappear as a nation if Putin wins. That is why Canada can be very helpful in stopping Russian aggression.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Merezhko.
Senator Ravalia: I would like to echo Senator Greene’s sentiment that our hearts and minds are with you and all Ukrainians.
My question is for Mr. Merezhko. In March 2022, Médecins Sans Frontières, or MSF, noted the importance of ensuring access to health care and medicine for Ukrainians during conflict. In addition to focusing on such aspects as surgical trauma, emergency room and intensive care equipment and drugs, MSF also pointed out the need to ensure adequate supply of medical equipment and medicines required for individuals living with chronic diseases like diabetes, asthma and hypertension. I was wondering if you could highlight for us how stable the current supply of medical equipment and medicines required by individuals living with chronic disease is in Ukraine. And what can we as Canadians do to help make sure you maintain an adequate supply of this equipment and medication, given the context of the ongoing hostilities?
Mr. Merezhko: Thank you. Of course we need your humanitarian help and aid. We have a problem. Our ministry of health is doing everything it can to provide necessary medicines, especially to people with chronic diseases or ailments. They’re doing everything they can. Unfortunately, sometimes, we face a lack of the necessary medicine for economic reasons.
I’m talking about the part of Ukraine that is not occupied. As for occupied territories, the situation is catastrophic. People don’t have medicine. They don’t have necessary medical equipment. The situation is just horrible. We don’t have direct access, but from what we know, it’s a new kind of way of genocide against Ukrainians in the occupied territories.
The best solution would be to get in touch with our ministry of health and arrange such humanitarian aid from Canada to help people who are suffering from difficult diseases in Ukraine. We would also appreciate your help in this respect. Thank you.
Senator Ravalia: Mr. Merezhko, what measures are being taken or could be taken to help address the fact that violence against women and children are being used as weapons of war? Obviously, we know that the psychological consequences of this can be dire. Is there anything that we as Canadians can do to respond to this crisis situation?
Mr. Merezhko: The fact is, we need all kinds of help. As it was said before, almost half of our economy was destroyed by Russia, and Russia continues to destroy our economy. It wants to turn us into a failed state. That’s why we also need economic assistance, and probably a psychological one because this is something that we’re going to face when the hostilities will be over. It might be another problem to address.
Again, your help and experience can be very valuable to us. Thank you.
Senator Ravalia: Thank you very much, Mr. Merezhko.
Senator Coyle: Thank you to all of our witnesses here today.
Mr. Merezhko, we will heed your plea that we must not get used to this war of evil and tyranny being waged by Russia in your country of Ukraine. We’re very sorry for the suffering and losses of the Ukrainian people.
Ambassador Kovaliv and Mr. Merezhko, you have spoken about military solutions and humanitarian needs. We know that bilateral discussions between Russia and Ukraine have largely stalled since Russia’s assault shifted to the eastern part of Ukraine. Could you speak to us about what possible diplomatic pathways exist to de-escalate the crisis in Ukraine? Are you seeing any possibilities for de-escalation through diplomacy?
Also, let us know what role you could see Canada or any other country or international organization playing to support the diplomatic channels for negotiation.
Mr. Merezhko: I’ll try to answer this question. You see, I have some experience dealing, in terms of negotiations, with Russia. I was the deputy head of the Ukrainian delegation in the Trilateral Contact Group. This is about the so-called Minsk Process, so I’m familiar with the way they negotiate.
The truth is that they don’t negotiate. They use negotiations for propagandistic goals. The truth is also that they negotiate from the position of strength. They cannot be trusted, because they have violated all international treaties between Russia and Ukraine. They have violated the UN charter and basic principles of international law. Unfortunately, they are not a reliable partner.
On the other hand, Ukraine is committed to a political and diplomatic solution. The problem is that Russia is not ready and doesn’t want to negotiate seriously. Especially now. To me, a sign that Russia is ready to negotiate would be direct involvement of Putin himself, because he [Technical difficulties] makes all decisions in Russia. The second sign would be that there would be a ceasefire. Unless we have ceasefire, the thing is that the solution for [Technical difficulties]
The Chair: Mr. Merezhko, we’re having a few technical difficulties —
Mr. Merezhko: How about now? Can you hear me?
The Chair: It’s better now. Please proceed.
Mr. Merezhko: Thank you. My final point is that the result of negotiations depends on the situation on the ground, on the battlefield.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
[Translation]
Senator Gerba: Thank you to all the distinguished witnesses who are with us today. My question is for Her Excellency Ms. Kovaliv, but Mr. Merezhko may also answer. It relates to the Russian blockade of ports that the ambassador has just spoken about. As a result of this blockade, Ukraine has 22 million tonnes of unsold grain. In addition to depriving Ukraine of significant revenues, this situation threatens global food security, according to the World Food Programme. Ukraine is in fact one of the largest exporters of wheat and corn in the world. Various African countries depend on it. They include Benin, which imports 100% of its grain from Ukraine, and Somalia, which imports more than 70%. Germany recently created a rail bridge to help transport grain. Is this a strategy that Canada might also use? What is Canada doing in this regard?
[English]
Ms. Kovaliv: Food security is really one of the biggest challenges for the globe after the war in Ukraine. I would say that it is another tool that Putin is using as a weapon. The figures show that if the ports remain blocked, over 400 million people on our planet will suffer, and part of them will suffer from famine. As you mentioned, the 22 million tonnes are being blocked in the seaports, and the seaports are being blocked by the Russians.
We are ready for a different kind of negotiation and for the platforms to allow a de-blockade of the seaports. Ukraine, as a country, is ready to export those grains — the remaining that is blocked at the seaport, as well as the future harvest. We need to think about food security in the coming months.
Second, in terms of logistics on the western border, exportation is lower. In comparison to 5 million tonnes of export per month through the seaports, now, at a maximum, it is down to about 2 million tonnes, which is less than half. Of course, that puts a lot of pressure on the railways and roads. Russia is precisely bombing the railroad infrastructure in order to not allow even alternative routes to the western border of Ukraine, and then through European countries, to deliver this food to the world.
In terms of efforts, as I mentioned, there are several. The first is to work together on the de-blockade of the ports in cooperation with the United Nations. The second is support of the logistics, including locomotives and wagons to put more grain on the railroad. And the third is the technology for storage of the food. Because this was bombed and destroyed, we see it as another major problem for the next harvest season.
These are the three main things we are focusing on. From the Ukrainian side, we are doing our best — in cooperation from Poland, the Baltic countries and the EU in general — to make these routes possible and to increase the capacity of exports from Ukraine. However, we do believe there is a physical bottleneck, which is why the joint effort to de-block ports is our top priority.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you both for being here today. Congratulations to Ambassador-designate Kovaliv on her recent appointment. It is wonderful to have you here, and we all share great empathy for the times.
I just listened to the food security and grain response. I want to build on that and understand a bit deeper in terms of the Odessa port area.
I know that, as you’ve indicated, the food supply and grains issue is complex and multi-faceted. It is largely the Russian blockade at the Port of Odessa that is keeping the harvest trapped in Ukraine.
My question is straightforward, although the answer is likely not straightforward. I wonder about if there were to be an international coalition that could guarantee armed escorts out of Odessa to get the grain to customers and to get the food out of the Black Sea. I’ve heard about the rail and the bombings. I would first like to ask that simple question.
Ms. Kovaliv: We are discussing with partners, including the United Nations, how to establish such international missions. However, the situation now is that the ports are blocked. The other risk is that missile attacks are happening in Odessa, which is just a few kilometres from the seaport. The situation is complex and complicated.
One issue is the international missions for food security and guarantees for these missions.
The second challenge is the logistics inside Ukraine, because the grain needs to be delivered to the seaport. Russia is constantly attacking Ukrainian infrastructure, such as railways and roads.
At this time, diplomatic efforts to work on these corridors, as well as military support for Ukraine, are the two main tools to secure food supply and global food security.
Senator M. Deacon: As a follow-up question to an earlier question with respect to physical violence on women and children, I want to expand a bit on that.
Ambassador-designate Kovaliv, recently you spoke to this issue in the House and stated that Russia has to be held accountable for sexual violence in Ukraine.
I certainly agree, but I’m not sure how this can be accomplished. I can’t see people bringing themselves before the ICC or the Ukrainian court to face justice. This is absolutely your country and your compatriots who are victims of these terrible crimes, so from your point of view, what would justice look like for these war crimes? And how can Canada help to achieve these goals?
Ms. Kovaliv: We’re working on different routes. First, we’re working with the International Criminal Court. They have started an investigation. We thank Canada for its help, particularly in the investigation of sexual violence crimes against women in Ukraine.
Second, we’re working inside Ukraine with the support of different countries that are sending experts to properly collect and document the evidence of those crimes.
Third, we’re working on a separate tribunal against the Russian regime.
The Chair: I know Mr. Merezhko wants to respond. I’ll use my discretion as chair to give you a minute to respond, because we’re already over time. Please go ahead.
Mr. Merezhko: Thank you. I was a professor of international law in my previous life, and this is an important question. The crucial question is how to bring Russian war criminals to justice and how Canada can be helpful.
We can rely on the principle of universal jurisdiction vis-à-vis the countries in which territories these war criminals find themselves. Irrespective of whether the crimes were committed in the territory of this country, they can be brought to justice. Canada can also do this, relying on the principle of universal jurisdiction.
Senator Boniface: Thank you to the witnesses for being here at a time when you have so much going on in your country. I share and echo the comments of my colleagues in letting you know that Canadians stand with you.
I’m interested in the impact of sanctions that Canada has put on Russia, as have many other countries — including sanctions against President Putin, the foreign minister and high officials, the Russian central bank, The State Duma, as well as Russian oligarchs.
Mr. Merezhko, do you see any evidence that suggests these international sanctions are producing a behavioural change in the Russian regime? Do you have a sense of how these sanctions are affecting the Russian economy and the Russian people?
Mr. Merezhko: I think it is too early to judge what might be the effect of the sanctions, because of inertia. Unfortunately, we have not had enough time to determine whether the sanctions are effective. Economists say they will be effective and that the results will be felt by Russians and by the Russian elite within a few months. I’m not an economist. The Americans used so-called “smart sanctions,” and they claim they were effective. However, as it turned out, unfortunately they were not effective in stopping the new Russian aggression.
Nevertheless, I believe that the goal of these sanctions should be the total isolation of Russia — economic, political and diplomatic. This will help to stop the Russian war machine and the Russian economy. This, to me, is one of the most reasonable solutions.
Ms. Kovaliv: The sanctions are working, but for some of them it takes time. The important thing is cutting Russia from logistics. Canada was among the first to make sanctions on the Russian transportation sector, that is very important.
The second thing is the oil and gas ban. We are grateful that Canada has shown this leadership. Finally, two days ago the EU made an historic decision because finally Russian oil and gas is no longer an untouchable instrument of political influence from Russia towards Europe. Now with the sixth package of sanctions being finally approved, we do think it’s a good step. Whether it’s enough or not, we do think much more could and should be done. Cutting around 90% of Russia’s oil export to Europe will have a significant influence on Russia’s ability to collect the money for fossil fuels and cut European dependency on Russian energy.
There is also the technology. Because of the sanctions, Russia is losing huge technology and access to critical minerals. That will have an influence in the coming months and to the year end because this will not allow the Russian economy to develop.
We do think sanctions work, but we do think there should be more sanctions, including further sanctions for the Russian oil and gas sector, further personal sanctions, and sanctions for the banking sector, including expanding the banks that are cut off from SWIFT. That will increasingly put pressure by Russian society onto what their regime is doing.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator Omidvar: Thank you very much, Mr. Merezhko and Ms. Kovaliv, for spending this time with us when your country is in the face of such enormous crisis.
My question is again about sanctions. Canada has been proactive on the sanctions front, and in short order, in a couple of weeks at least, at most, Canada will pass into law a measure that will enable Canada to confiscate and repurpose the assets of Russian oligarchs and entities held in Canada.
How would you like to see the assets deployed to help the victims of war in your country? This will not be billions of dollars, but it will be a few million. How would you like to see that deployed?
Mr. Merezhko: It’s a great question. I’m right now participating in the Bratislava Forum at GLOBSEC, and we are discussing this issue. We can think about the creation of a special fund for Ukraine on the basis of the frozen and confiscated Russian assets. This money can be used to reconstruct and rebuild the Ukrainian economy as well as giving this money to compensate the victims of Russian aggression. However, we need to think about an international kind of fund, and Canada can play the role of a leader in this endeavour. Thank you.
Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you for the question, and thank you, senator, for your efforts in introducing legislation regarding the seizure of Russian assets. We also count on the support of the Senate to adopt this law, and Canada will be among the first countries in the world to introduce this mechanism.
In terms of the seizure of assets, we too are looking for the creation of a fund that will support two sectors. First is the rebuilding, including the infrastructure to support of the people who were wounded and affected by the war. They need to live. They need access to water; they need the roads, schools and hospitals. For so many cities, this infrastructure should be built almost from scratch because the cities are totally destroyed.
As I mentioned, 220,000 people lost their homes, and we need to build them. We need access to housing, access to clean water, access to medical care, so we do think that this fund, which will work together with the international partners, will be one of the tools that should work for the people of Ukraine who suffered the most from the war.
Senator Omidvar: Thank you, ambassador. As Canada takes the lead to bring other like-minded partners to this proposal and hopefully contributes to a global fund, do you think it would be helpful for Canada to also paint out the governance of such a fund with principles and transparency, et cetera?
Ms. Kovaliv: Since we will be developing this, there are two important things these talks need to determine related to how it will be structured. First of all, we need a joint effort with different countries, as well as those who have the leadership on pushing this legislation, to give a first example to the other countries and also for those countries who have an enormous amount of Russian assets. There needs to be a joint effort between Ukraine and the Ukrainian government and those countries that will participate. We do believe many countries will participate. The joint discussion should be done together on how to structure it.
The Chair: Thank you, ambassador. Thank you, senator. We’ve come to the end of the first round. We will have a second round, and I wanted to note that both Senators Woo and Richards have joined us in progress. Since it’s the end of the first round, and I’m the chair, I feel compelled to ask a question as well.
The war, as it continues, is very much a 21st-century phenomenon in terms of information and disinformation. It is no longer, of course, straightforward media information that is being put out but there is a lot of disinformation as well, and particularly in social media.
As the war continues, as those who are watching, shall we say, in other countries may find themselves inured a little bit or less concerned than they were at the beginning, how do you maintain an edge — especially in the case of Russia where the media is essentially closed inside and there are strictures on the use of social media — to try to get the message out, the message that you would like to get out? Mr. Merezhko, you can start on that one, and I would ask Ambassador Kovaliv to comment as well.
Mr. Merezhko: Russia openly states the war they are waging is not only against Ukraine but against the whole civilized world, against the West. Lavrov says that Russia is waging war against the West, and part of this war is a hybrid war. It is a propaganda war. It’s an extremely dangerous thing, a dangerous tool, because Russia pumps billions of dollars into this, and there are different kinds of propaganda — soft propaganda for Western countries and brainwashing to be used in Russia.
Of course, it’s difficult to persuade the population of Russia, to tell them the truth, but there are radio stations, there is internet, and there are plenty of opportunities for each citizen of Russia to use truthful and objective information, BBC, the Voice of America and so on. It is a matter of their choice, but unfortunately they’re not doing this, and 83% of the Russian population supports Putin, who is a war criminal, unfortunately. I don’t know what the solution is. I believe that all Russian propaganda should be strictly banned, and Russian propagandists are war criminals. They should be brought to justice in all democratic, civilized countries. Thank you.
Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you for the question. First of all, in terms of the war, unfortunately with the news from Ukraine — like we had from Mariupol, like we had from Bucha — that shows these atrocities and the war crimes on the news, we don’t want this news to be in such a way because we don’t want to see the people of Ukraine being killed.
However, I also would like to stress and come back to how Russia is weaponizing energy and food. It is striking and hitting almost every country and every economy. The enormous, high energy and fuel prices are felt in many countries. The enormous, high prices for food are felt in all countries. So this war and the position of Ukraine, which is fighting both on the front line for our own country, our land and security, but as we speak today for food security, we are ready to provide this food for the globe. We are ready to be a reliable partner providing food for those countries, especially the low-income countries where the risk of famine is possible. So even in this hardest time, we are saying that we are ready to provide this for the world.
But we also need the support because, otherwise, if Russia is moving into and occupying more territories, there will be less food from Ukraine. And I don’t believe that anybody from the democratic countries or the Western world would like Russia to have more influence on the food security of the globe or to have more tools to intervene and to influence on the global food crisis. We can end up in the situation as seen in Europe now. They have been relying heavily on Russian energy, mainly oil and gas, for years. With this situation, I think it is important to understand that the Russian war in Ukraine has so many impacts for all of the global economies, for all of the people in the world, including here in Canada. So every bill and cheque is already influenced by the Russian war in Ukraine.
The Chair: Thank you very much, ambassador.
We will move to the second round. I mentioned earlier two senators who have joined us. I see that Senator MacDonald has also joined us.
Senator Coyle: I’m not sure which of our witnesses would like to answer this question.
I believe that, Mr. Merezhko, you mentioned Belarus and Lukashenko. I would like to hear a little bit, if I could, from one or both of you about the role of Belarus, the complicity of that country, and where you feel the international community and Canada should be acting in that case.
Mr. Merezhko: I’ll try to answer this question.
If we take the definition of “aggression” in international law, we can see that Belarus, as you rightly pointed out, plays the role of an accomplice in Putin’s crime, of Russia’s war of aggression against Ukraine because Lukashenko allows them to use the territory of Belarus against Ukraine; that’s why he is an accomplice under international law. It is obvious.
On the other hand, he is still not involved directly. Belarusian troops, troops of Belarus, are not directly involved in the Russian war against Ukraine. It is on the verge. It can happen at any moment. Unfortunately, we have to be ready for that.
One of the reasons why Kyiv was endangered was Lukashenko allowed Russia to use the territory of Belarus against Ukraine. But we have, luckily, defeated the Russian troops near Kyiv, which saved the city and that whole situation. We still are very careful about what might happen and, unfortunately, the problem remains.
The Chair: Ambassador, did you wish to comment on this?
Ms. Kovaliv: There are a lot of missile attacks and air strikes that are coming from their territory. Also, Russia is using Belarus heavily as of today in terms of their logistics. And, of course, it all fuels their ability and capacity, especially now in the east where we have just today, yesterday and today, a very severe fight. The big cities of Donetsk are 70% controlled by Russians.
They also hit one of the biggest chemical production facilities. We do know there is already a chemical threat to the civilian population because of these chemical components that were exploded.
As of today, Belarus played a supportive role and their territory is heavily used for Russian attacks against Ukraine.
The Chair: You have a minute, Senator Coyle, if you have a follow-up question.
Senator Coyle: Yes. As both of you have said, there are many ways that Belarus is complicit without directly engaging in the war as an active participant yet. Could you tell us whether you think there is anything that the international community should be doing regarding Belarus at this time?
Mr. Merezhko: I believe that the Belarusian dictator should be aware of the consequences of what might happen if he decides to be directly involved in Russia’s war against Ukraine. He should be aware of, for example, the package of very strong sanctions that would lead to the total isolation of Belarus. I think it might be a deterrent against his plans. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator Greene: I have so many questions I want to ask. My note paper is covered with arrows and dotted lines to questions. It is very difficult to know exactly what to ask, especially since we have covered some amazing detail. But there are still the long-term strategic questions, which I think we should spend a little more time on.
Is there some sense that we are asking Ukraine to fight our battles with one arm tied behind its back and that the only way we really can win — and we must win; not only must we win, but we must win soon — is to unleash this into the Ukrainian battlefield? I’m referring to the weapons that are being shipped to Ukraine now and those that cannot be used against Russian territory, even accidentally.
Mr. Merezhko: We need heavy weapons to withstand Russian aggression.
First of all, we need artillery, tanks and jets. As for the range of MLRS, for example, we need these kinds of systems with a range of, for example, 300 kilometres. I’m not a specialist, but it might be an effective deterrent against Russian aggression.
I’m not a military person, but I think that Putin understands only the language of strength. And the heavy weapons is the best guarantee of not only the security of Ukraine, but it is also the best humanitarian support for us because these heavy weapons save the lives not only of our soldiers but also our civilian population, which is very important.
We need these heavy weapons to be provided very soon, because the next several weeks can be crucial for Ukraine; that’s why we need these weapons very fast. As the legislators in Canada, you have influence. You can save lives of Ukrainians. You can do it. Please do it. Thank you.
Senator Greene: Are we a victim of nuclear blackmail?
Mr. Merezhko: As for nuclear blackmail, Putin is a provocateur and gambler. I don’t believe it. He is using this nuclear argument exactly for blackmailing, but he is bluffing.
During the Cold War there was the MAD concept if you remember — mutual assured destruction — and it worked. It worked. Putin is afraid of transatlantic solidarity. He is afraid of solidarity of the whole world behind Ukraine. He is afraid of NATO. When he sees such solidarity, when he sees that countries are resolute and decisive, he backs down.
Senator Greene: Thank you.
The Chair: Anything else, senator? You have 30 seconds.
Senator Greene: I agree with all those around the table who mentioned a sense of urgency. I’m quite worried about this whole situation. We might end up in a black hole of hatred right in the middle of Europe that could last a long time. That would be a shame because we have so many more important issues to deal with, such as climate, the environment et cetera, that we are being distracted from. That’s why we must use maximum force, I believe, to get out of this war as soon as possible.
Senator M. Deacon: I’m going to come back to something Senator Greene touched on. First, my question to the ambassador-designate concerns the NATO mission that saw the Canadian Forces work and train with some 30,000 of their Ukrainian counterparts, Operation UNIFIER. I would like to ask for your assessment of what this mission has been like in light of the Russian invasion. At this moment, and there will be much more time later, what did the mission get right? With the benefit of hindsight, is there an area of focus that this mission could have stressed more and included that might have helped Ukraine for preparing for the defence and potential offence in regaining lost territory?
Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you for the question. Yes, Operation UNIFIER that was working for years with Ukrainian soldiers and instructors really made a difference. We value this program a lot, and over 30,000 Ukrainian soldiers went through this kind of training. As you see our courageous people on the front line and battlefield, it is also this Canadian training support that made our army stronger, smarter and using new knowledge and information on how to behave on the battlefield.
Unfortunately when I was coming to Canada as ambassador, just a few days before, there was a missile attack on the Yavoriv military base where just three weeks before that, the Canadian UNIFIER team was working and training. Actually, it was 20 kilometres from the NATO border.
This is what I’m saying; the war is very close both to Canada and to NATO members, because the missile attacks which are coming to the western border of Ukraine are very close to Poland and the NATO borders.
As to the training, we think it is very valuable to do even now — especially now — as Ukraine is starting to use new weapons, and new NATO standard kinds of weapons. So there is some specific training and we would like to work together on that. That is one of the priorities as well.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you, I appreciate that. I have a quick follow-up question. Senator Greene talked about equipment. My concern is around the military equipment we are sending Ukraine in this conflict, specifically the eight new Senator armoured personnel carriers the Ukrainian army has received from Canada. Some have suggested those vehicles do or do not meet the needs of Ukraine at this time. My question is if you have the hardware you need to continue to fight? We all want to make sure the hardware you have is what you need to use, not just generosity.
While I won’t ask you to comment on these vehicles specifically, I hope you can comment a little on the process working with all these different allied nations on how you get the equipment and how that process could be improved so that you have what you need in a timely, urgent manner.
Ms. Kovaliv: First of all, we appreciate the support, including those vehicles that we got, because the need of Ukraine is quite huge in terms of the armoured vehicles. But, of course, the focus is for the LAVs, which are the armoured vehicles that are precisely what is needed now. But the ones which were shipped to Ukraine, we also need that as well. So this is one of the big priorities together with artillery and UAVs.
In terms of the coordination, we are working very closely in Canada with the Department of National Defence, or DND, and our Minister of Defence with all of the partners, with the group of countries who are coordinating efforts to support Ukraine with military aid.
The one thing that we do need — and you can imagine because the war is going on and we are losing soldiers every day on the battlefield — is timing. We know precisely what we need, and we are working here closely with DND telling them what we need, including what I have mentioned — LAVs, artillery and UAVs. The thing that is crucial for us is timing.
The Chair: Thank you, ambassador. I’m going to have to stop you there.
[Translation]
Senator Gerba: My question is for the ambassador-designate and is along the same lines as the question from Senator Deacon.
The national defence minister recently announced the provision of 20,000 artillery rounds to Ukraine, valued at $98 million. This announcement is in addition to the four howitzers delivered in April. Does this matériel truly meet the expectations of Ukrainian authorities and is there other materiel that Canada could provide that would be more useful on the ground? Thank you.
[English]
Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you. Yes, providing both the howitzers and now the 20,000 rounds of artillery is of crucial importance. That is something we worked on together and we do appreciate it. It makes a difference. It saves lives. Because now on the battlefield the surface is rather flat so as we have artillery, it does not allow Russian forces to move forward inside and occupy Ukrainian territory. Because what they do in the occupied territories, as I mentioned to you, including filtration camps, is a disaster and we are losing hundreds and thousands of human lives.
As for the additional support, as I mentioned several times here now, that armoured vehicles — including LAVs, UAVs and artillery — are the top priorities for us as we work here in Canada.
[Translation]
The Chair: You have one more minute.
Senator Gerba: That is fine, Mr. Chair. Thank you.
[English]
Senator MacDonald: I want to apologize to everyone for being late getting on. I had some technical issues but IT got hold of me and I think we straightened them out.
It is good to be here and great to have these witnesses here today. As some of you know, I was an election observer three years ago. I was in Ukraine twice and Kyiv twice over a three-week period. It’s just heartbreaking to see what is going on in Ukraine.
Since I was late I may have missed a question or two here, but I want to speak about a potential ceasefire, because I think we have heard a lot of talk about ceasefires. We know what Ukraine wants to do is drive the invaders out of the country, and they are doing a great job of standing up to them. We understand the morality of that objective. Do you see any hope for a potential ceasefire short of continuing the war until your final objectives are achieved? Do you see a chance for any ceasefire before the full liberation of the country is achieved and perhaps outstanding issues like the future of Donbas left to diplomatic discussions?
The Chair: We’ll go to Mr. Merezhko first.
Senator, I want to reassure you that that question specifically has not been asked in that way.
Mr. Merezhko: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
It is a really important question. We are thinking a lot about it, because, of course, we are interested in a ceasefire as an instrument to stop bloodshed and to save lives, especially civilian lives.
At the same time, Russia understands ceasefire differently. First, it wants to grab as much Ukrainian territory as it can, and then only after that to agree to a ceasefire. I doubt very much that this is the correct or right version of ceasefire. Our final goal, our ultimate goal is to liberate all our territory within the internationally recognized border of Ukraine, including Donbas and Crimea.
In the final analysis, ceasefire and the end of war can be only on the basis of international law and on the constitutional law of Ukraine, including principles of territorial integrity and sovereignty.
Senator MacDonald: I guess it’s back to the objectives of becoming a member of NATO. Of course, the Russians have always been against Ukraine entering NATO; although, now we see the evidence of why it is so important that Ukraine be members of NATO. The aggression has triggered both Sweden and Finland to come into NATO.
What does this do to the potential of Ukraine joining NATO? Does it diminish it? Does it increase it? Will Ukraine have to disavow joining NATO in order to find some sort of a peace settlement? Where do you see this going?
Mr. Merezhko: I’m absolutely sure that NATO is the best guarantee of Ukraine’s security. Putin doesn’t risk to attack, for example, small Estonia, because it is a member state of NATO, and it is well protected. Unfortunately, it was a huge mistake made by Germany and France in 2008 at the Bucharest Summit when they were against Ukraine joining NATO. It was a huge mistake, to me.
Senator MacDonald: Yes.
Mr. Merezhko: I believe that our future is in NATO, because, first of all, it is the best guarantee of our security, and, second, because it is already enshrined in our constitution, this goal to become a NATO member state, and I would like to count on the support of Canada.
Senator MacDonald: I believe you are right too. I think NATO is the way to go.
Senator Richards: I was late too. I had another committee meeting, and this question might have been asked earlier, because I missed the first part.
It’s a simple question but an important one: How can Ukraine win without air power? They certainly lack air power at this moment. Is there any possibility of overall victory without air power?
Perhaps Mr. Merezhko could answer that or discuss it a bit.
Mr. Merezhko: I’m absolutely certain that sooner or later Ukraine will win this war for two reasons. The first one is that we are fighting for our homes and our families. We cannot lose this war, because we’ll be annihilated.
The second reason is that behind us is the support, solidarity and force of the whole democratic, civilized world. It is only a matter of time and, unfortunately, it is a matter of casualties.
Of course, we need heavy weapons, and we need jets and military aircraft, because it will bring our final goal closer. It will help to liberate us, to defend ourselves, to survive and to liberate our territories from Russian occupation.
Senator Richards: I have a quick follow-up question. Are the weapons that are being sent by the West able to get to where they are intended to get to in a reasonable amount of time in order to be effective against the Russian forces?
Mr. Merezhko: I’ll try to answer this question. Of course, we need to make it swifter, to make it quicker, because it is crucial. Because of delays, we have to pay by the lives of our servicemen.
At the same time, for example, the United States, which is our closest friend and closest ally and partner, is trying to do it very quickly, within one day, because they understand the consequences.
Unfortunately, some European countries, they are talking about, for example, July, and they understand perfectly well that such delays will cost us a lot, will cost us dearly in terms of human lives. Nevertheless, they are not in a hurry to provide us with weapons, and I really regret that.
Senator Richards: Thank you very much, sir, and good luck.
The Chair: Ambassador, did you want to comment on that?
Ms. Kovaliv: Yes. I will just quickly comment that we are getting more and more weapons, including the NATO standards and the ones which have been desperately needed since the very first days of the war.
As Mr. Merezhko mentioned, timing is very crucial. Each day of delay, debate and not making decisions costs, first of all, human lives. And second, it costs Ukrainian territories, because there is a risk that Russia could be moving further. Then, as Senator MacDonald was talking about, the peace and ceasefire; the more Russia could take the territories of Ukraine, the harder will be the diplomatic dialogue.
I would like to reiterate for one second that we need this military support just to protect our territory, just to protect the Ukrainians and just to work with the countries on food security. This is the humanitarian mission of providing this military support to Ukraine.
Senator Richards: Understood, madam. Thank you very much.
Senator Omidvar: My question is short, but both your answers might be long, so let me ask you a question about Germany, which is pivotal in so many ways to this whole question.
What is your assessment of the efforts they have made both within their own jurisdiction and in partnership with others, and what message would you like to see Canada share with our German colleagues in the context of the war in Ukraine?
Mr. Merezhko: I would say there are two kinds of countries with respect to Russia’s aggression against Ukraine. There are countries that are trying wholeheartedly to help us, and they are doing more than they can afford. For example, small Estonia has only 1.3 million people, but they are doing a lot, and they are constantly asking the question, “How can we be helpful? What can we do for you?”
At the same time, there are big countries who claim to be leaders of Europe who can do much more to help Ukraine survive and defend our civilians, but they are not doing enough, unfortunately.
My message to these countries is to use examples like the countries of Estonia, Poland, other Baltic states, the United States and the United Kingdom.
Ms. Kovaliv: There are two things we need from the big European economies and big European democracies, and that is to show they really stand for democracy — that’s where we as Ukraine stand in this war — which is the support of Ukraine adherence to be the candidate member for the EU. This is important for political, economical and also for security reasons. It is a very important thing for Ukraine. We think we have already paid a lot for our European integration and for European values, and we are paying it every day.
The second thing is the military supply. So one more time I will say that timing is a huge issue, because of so many impacts on so many countries, you cannot hide from this war. There is no country that will not suffer from the consequences of the Russian war against Ukraine, so not making a decision or taking too long will complicate the situation and complicate the global economy, global food security and energy security.
Of course, with this sixth package of sanctions from Germany and the EU side, it’s a good step forward. But we do think that there is much more that needs to be done from big European economies to support Ukraine at this time.
The Chair: Thank you very much, ambassador. We’ve come to the end of our session. On behalf of the committee, I would like to thank Mr. Merezhko and Ambassador-designate Kovaliv for their testimony today.
Ambassador, I know you’re presenting credentials on June 7, so you’ll finally become official, which is good. I want you to rest assured that the thoughts of this committee, and indeed of all of us, are with you at what is a very difficult time for Ukraine.
Thank you very much and stay safe.
Mr. Merezhko: Thank you very much, and I hope to see you in Kyiv.
Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you. We hope so.
The Chair: Members of the committee, we will now go in camera.
(The committee continued in camera.)