THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Thursday, February 29, 2024
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade met with videoconference this day at 11:29 a.m. [ET] to consider Bill C-57, An Act to implement the 2023 Free Trade Agreement between Canada and Ukraine.
Senator Peter M. Boehm (Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: My name is Peter Boehm. I’m a senator from Ontario. I chair the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade.
Before I begin, I would like the committee members here today to introduce themselves, starting on my left.
Senator Greene: Steve Greene, Nova Scotia.
Senator MacAdam: Jane MacAdam, Prince Edward Island.
Senator Kutcher: Stan Kutcher, Nova Scotia.
Senator Housakos: Senator Housakos from Quebec.
Senator MacDonald: Michael MacDonald, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Senator Ravalia: Mohamed Ravalia, Newfoundland and Labrador.
Senator Harder: Peter Harder, Ontario.
Senator Boniface: Gwen Boniface, Ontario.
Senator Cardozo: Andrew Cardozo, Ontario.
Senator McNair: John McNair, New Brunswick.
Senator Woo: Yuen Pau Woo, British Columbia.
The Chair: Thank you very much, senators. I want to welcome you all and all those who may be watching us today across Canada on ParlVu.
Today we are continuing our study of Bill C-57, An Act to implement the 2023 Free Trade Agreement between Canada and Ukraine.
We are honoured to welcome, by video conference from Abu Dhabi, the Honourable Mary Ng, P.C., M.P., Minister of Export Promotion, International Trade and Economic Development. Welcome, minister. We know you are far away, but thank you for being with us today.
In the room we have officials from Global Affairs Canada: Dean Foster, Director and Deputy Chief Negotiator, Trade Negotiations for Africa, Americas, Europe, India, Middle East; Adam Douglas, Senior Counsel and Deputy Director, Investment and Services Law; and Vincent Boulanger, Deputy Director, Investment Trade Policy.
Before we hear your remarks and proceed to questions and answers, I wish to ask members of the committee and witnesses in the room to please refrain from leaning in too closely to their microphones or removing your earpiece when doing so. This will avoid any sound feedback that could negatively impact committee staff and others in the room, and certainly, first and foremost, our interpreters who have headphones on.
Minister, we are now ready to hear your opening remarks. We have allowed you 10 minutes. I hope that’s sufficient for you. As per usual, this will be followed by questions from senators. Minister, the floor is yours.
Hon. Mary Ng, P.C., M.P., Minister of Export Promotion, International Trade and Economic Development: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and honourable senators. It is always a pleasure for me to appear before you and to support this committee.
I am especially pleased to speak to you today about the important and long-awaited development in the Canada-Ukraine bilateral trade relationship, namely, the modernized Canada-Ukraine Free Trade Agreement, or what I affectionately call CUFTA, and its mutually beneficial outcomes for both countries. I want to thank you all for your careful consideration of this important legislation. In particular, I want to thank my colleague Senator Harder for sponsoring this bill.
I am appearing before you today from Abu Dhabi, where I am participating in the WTO 13th Ministerial Conference, or MC13, as they call it here. While I wish I could be with you today in person, MC13 marks the most significant meeting that the WTO hosts on the multilateral calendar and, not surprisingly, many of the issues that my counterparts and I have discussed this week are closely tied to what we’ll be discussing here today.
To start, I strongly believe that institutions such as the World Trade Organization have helped establish an era of unprecedented global stability and prosperity and that the growth of a rules-based global trading order can — and has — benefited Canadian companies, workers, producers, farmers and families. That stability, however, is now under threat from both autocratic and illiberal regimes abroad and protectionist and populist politicians.
Of course, nowhere is this threat to liberal democracy more obvious than in Ukraine. Let me be very clear: Our government will stand with Ukraine until they win this war, and we will be there to help Ukraine recover from the devastating impacts of Russia’s illegal invasion. A modernized CUFTA will play a crucial role in that process.
Senators, as you’re well aware, last weekend marked the two-year anniversary of Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine. This solemn anniversary has given me, and all Canadians, time to reflect and I want to reiterate my strong belief that passing CUFTA will send an unmistakable signal that Canada’s support for Ukraine remains steadfast and unshakeable.
[Translation]
Mr. Chair, honourable senators, as you know, Bill C-57, An Act to implement the 2023 Free Trade Agreement between Canada and Ukraine, has passed third reading at the House of Commons and is now in front of you for your consideration.
That’s why I’m here with you today to urge you to consider this landmark bill with the seriousness and mindfulness it deserves.
[English]
Again, while it was my initial desire to appear before you today in person, doing so would have delayed consideration of this bill by weeks, if not longer. Quite simply, we cannot afford delays to this legislation. Canadian businesses want this bill to be passed. Canadian workers want this bill to be passed. Ukrainian Canadians want this bill to be passed. President Zelenskyy himself has come to Canada and urged that this bill go forward. We owe it to all of them to treat this bill with the urgency it deserves. I want to thank honourable senators for your work on this bill.
As you know, Canada and Ukraine enjoy a special and unique relationship, forged by shared values, familial bonds — like that shared by Senator Harder when he spoke — and, increasingly, commercial ties. The modernized Canada-Ukraine Free Trade Agreement seeks to further strengthen those ties in ways that will be mutually beneficial for both countries.
Canada and Ukraine have enjoyed close bilateral relations since 1991, when Canada became the first Western country to recognize Ukrainian independence. In recent years, our bilateral relationship has been marked by Canada’s support for Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity — both since Russia’s invasion of Crimea in 2014 and, more recently, in response to Russia’s full-scale invasion in 2022.
We are providing Ukraine with critical support, including nearly $10 billion in military, humanitarian and financial aid. Canada has supplied Ukraine with eight Leopard 2 main battle tanks, helped train new Ukrainian military recruits and supported de-mining efforts on the Ukrainian front lines. We have welcomed thousands of Ukrainians fleeing Ukraine and now temporarily calling Canada home. The modernized CUFTA is yet another demonstration of Canada’s unwavering support for our Ukrainian allies.
To explain why this modernized trade agreement is so vital, let me first provide you with a brief timeline of how we got here.
The original CUFTA, which entered into force in 2017, was comprehensive from a trade-in-goods perspective but did not include chapters on services, investment, inclusive trade or other provisions that Canada now often seeks in a modern FTA. As a result, in July 2019, Ukrainian President Zelenskyy and Prime Minister Trudeau announced plans to modernize the agreement to add new chapters.
Following delays due to COVID-19, my Ukrainian counterpart — First Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Economy Yuliia Svyrydenko and I announced the launch of modernization negotiations in January 2022.
Of course, less than one month later, Russia began its full-scale invasion of Ukraine, which forced a pause in discussions. Faced with an existential threat, no one would have blamed our Ukrainian allies for placing free trade modernization on the back burner. But this deal remained a priority for Ukraine and for Canada. In May 2022, Minister Svyrydenko reached out to me and reiterated her government’s readiness to initiate — and, indeed, expedite — negotiations to strengthen the bilateral relationship and to support Ukraine’s long-term economic and trade interests. Just over a year later, Prime Minister Trudeau and President Zelenskyy signed the final modernized CUFTA in Ottawa.
Honourable senators, if I may, I want to say a few words about this historic agreement. It is highly ambitious and comprehensive and has commitments on par with some of the agreements that Canada has with the U.S. and Mexico through the Canada-United States-Mexico Agreement, or CUSMA; with the European Union through the Canada-European Union Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, or CETA; and also with countries like Japan, Australia, Vietnam, Chile and others, through the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, or CPTPP.
Canada and Ukraine have added nine new dedicated chapters, including cross-border trade in services, investment, financial services, telecommunications and good regulatory practices.
The agreement also includes new dedicated chapters on inclusive trade, trade and gender, trade and Indigenous people, and trade with small and medium-sized enterprises, or SMEs. While some of my colleagues in the House of Commons have made the unfortunate decision to dismiss these landmark chapters as “woke,” the truth is that both Canada and Ukraine understand that good trade deals need to — and must — include opportunities for SMEs, for women entrepreneurs and businesses, for Indigenous businesses and for their workers. Quite simply, these chapters will help ensure that the opportunities and benefits of this trade agreement will be more widely shared in our economies. At the same time, we also expanded and improved nine chapters from the existing agreement, including chapters on rules of origin, origin procedures, digital trade, competition policy, designated monopolies and state-owned enterprises, labour, transparency and anti-corruption, responsible business conduct and the environment.
The chapters on the environment, as you all know, have received a disproportionate amount of tension, but let me be very clear. This agreement does not impose a price on pollution on Ukraine. In fact, they have had a price on pollution since 2011. What it does do, however, is to enable both countries to strengthen cooperation to address the environmental challenges, which do affect trade and supply chain resiliency. Quite frankly, this shouldn’t have been controversial. Forward-looking countries understand that we need to tackle environmental challenges and grow the economy simultaneously — at the same time. In fact, doing so is absolutely necessary for countries who want to thrive in the 21st century global economy. Ukraine understands that and our government understands that. Those who would use climate change denialism as a thinly veiled excuse to abandon Ukrainian allies should know it as well.
Ultimately, these chapters are modern and ambitious, and this comprehensive free trade agreement will underpin the Canadian-Ukrainian bilateral commercial relationship for years to come, and it’s going to support Ukraine’s long-term recovery and trade interests. In fact, Ukraine’s commitment to demonstrating the ability to adhere to the ambitious commitments in this agreement will enable Ukraine to advance their efforts for economic integration with other partners around the world, particularly the European Union.
Finally, and perhaps most importantly, this agreement is going to provide a strong bilateral legal framework to support and encourage Canadian firms to start or expand their operations in Ukraine, or for Canada to participate in Ukraine’s post-war reconstruction and long-term recovery. When Ukraine wins this war, Canadian businesses and Canadian workers will be there to help rebuild. That is why, when I tabled the modernized Canada-Ukraine Free Trade Agreement, or CUFTA, and Bill C-57 in the House of Commons, I also announced my plan to lead a business mission to Ukraine, which will build on the momentum of a modernized CUFTA to create new connections between Canadian businesses and Ukrainian businesses and to build a better, stronger future for both of us.
Joining me on that mission — I hope — will be many Ukrainian-Canadian businesses and Canadian businesses of all sizes. I have met them all across the country, particularly on the Prairies, where there is such a strong diaspora. I have met them in Ottawa. What became immediately clear to me was that there is a significant interest from the Canadian private sector to support Ukraine through this modernized CUFTA because it actually creates those opportunities for Canadian companies through trade and facilitating their contributions to Ukraine’s reconstruction.
What also became clear is that the Ukrainian-Canadian community has been paying close attention to this legislation, to the debates surrounding it and to the message we’re sending to Ukraine around the world. As you all know, you can’t set foot on the Prairies without feeling the impact of the Ukrainian-Canadian community. It’s one of the largest diasporas in the world, and they want to hear about how this legislation is progressing. They want to hear about the progress and how this bill is making its way through. They want to see what can get done when our Parliament works and we work together to show this support for Ukraine. That’s the message I want to deliver.
I know I’m probably at time, Mr. Chair, so let me just leave you with this, which I delivered to the Ukrainian ambassador here at the World Trade Organization, or WTO: Canada will stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes and with what it takes.
With that, I will take questions and look forward to the discussion. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair, for indulging me with what was probably over my time.
[Translation]
The Chair: Thank you, minister.
Colleagues, I want to clarify that you have four minutes each for the first round, including questions and answers.
[English]
Therefore, to the members of the committee and, of course, to our witness, please be as concise as you can. If there is time, we can always go to a second round.
Senator Cardozo: Welcome, minister. I see we have a nine-hour difference, so I appreciate you being with us today.
I want to tell you that I was very proud to be at the Ukrainian rally on Saturday to mark the second anniversary of that terrible invasion and talk about a lot of things that are happening in the Senate, including our consideration of this Bill C-57, Bill C-314, which is about Ukrainian-Canadian heritage month, and Bill S-287 in addition to various other hearings we are having.
I want to ask you about this bill in the context of — I guess this bill is a little more than your average economic free trade bill that we deal with because of the particular situation in Ukraine. It has political and geopolitical consequences. I want to focus on section 7 (e), (f), (l) and (n), where you’re dealing with issues around environmental protections, sustainable development, corporate social responsibility and principles of democracy.
You touched on this, and I wonder if you could say a little more about the importance of these sections. Regarding corporate social responsibility, I note that there is a move among some corporations — more in the United States — to move away from diversity, equity and inclusion, or DEI, and some of the corporate social responsibility. You, however, have chosen to maintain these particular issues in these clauses. I wonder if you could talk about that a little more.
The Chair: All that, minister, in two minutes, please.
Ms. Ng: Senator Cardozo, it’s really good to see you and terrific that you were at that rally speaking so passionately about this. I think it’s so important because it demonstrates our support for Ukraine.
You are asking questions about what the comprehensive and progressive agreements in this agreement are, but those provisions also exist in the trade agreement between Canada, the United States and Mexico. They exist between Canada and the European Union. They also exist between Canada and the many countries that form the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, or CPTPP.
I want to be really clear on the issue of the environment. I think far too much time was spent on this, but I want to put in the facts, which I did a little bit in my remarks. Ukraine has had a price on pollution since 2011. There is no reference to a carbon tax in CUFTA or in any free trade agreement for that matter. What is in the environment chapter are provisions to facilitate cooperation on matters of mutual interest, including promoting carbon pricing and measures to mitigate carbon leakage risks. I’m here at the WTO, and all countries that are dealing with trade are looking at how trade can be a part of the solution that actually builds the resilient economy of today and resilient supply chains. This is a high-standard agreement, and it accomplishes that.
In terms of the inclusive provisions, it really is about creating the conditions through a free trade agreement that really provide greater opportunities for those who have been under-represented in our economies to actually get the benefits of trade. That’s the intent of what is in this agreement, and, as I said, these are high-standard comprehensive agreements that Canada has with many trading partners around the world.
The final point I would make here is that this is also an agreement that’s been negotiated by two countries: a sovereign Ukraine and Canada. Through these negotiations, we arrived at this really good agreement. I respect that. I respect that because I respect negotiations and what both parties arrive at as mutually beneficial for them and, in this case, for our businesses and our people. Overall, as I said, it also demonstrates Canada’s commitment to Ukraine, particularly at this time.
The Chair: Thank you, minister.
Senator Housakos: Thank you, minister, for being before us.
Minister, about the carbon tax amendment in this agreement, can you please tell us who was the proposer of that idea? Was it the Canadian government or was it Ukraine?
Second of all, minister, can you also tell us why, if this was so important to the Canadian government in this agreement, the same element isn’t found in the Canada-European Union Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, or CETA, or the North American Free Trade Agreement, or NAFTA?
Ms. Ng: Thank you so much, senator. It’s very good to see you.
I think that the really remarkable work of our trade negotiators is that they constantly seek to improve our trade agreements and make them more relevant and better than the last ones they negotiated. You see that from CETA to the renegotiated agreements with the United States and Mexico and certainly in the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, or CPTPP. I might remind senators that the “C” and the “P” were suggestions by Canada at the time, and while at the time people were asking the question why it was so important, today — and in particular for me as this year’s incoming chair for CPTPP — everyone has talked about how important the high standards are. That includes these very important provisions.
As I said earlier, this agreement was negotiated and agreed to by both countries, and it’s an excellent agreement.
At the end of the day, what do you hope to get out of agreements? That there is a legal framework, but the beneficiaries of that agreement are the businesses that do business here in Canada — wishing to do business in Ukraine, and Ukrainian businesses that may want to do business in Canada, both ways. Investment on both sides.
There is no question that if you look at the industries that are being built — I will give you CETA as an example. I just did a CETA commission a couple of weeks ago with my colleagues in Brussels, so the European Union. The environmental line of exports that — the exports and imports that have grown, have grown by 82% since the coming into force. That means trade is growing in a particular area of the economy that is —
Senator Housakos: Minister, I hate to cut you off, but you are not really answering my question, with all due respect. The question is very simple. Did our current government become concerned about climate change in this negotiation and were less so when you signed CETA and when you signed NAFTA?
Ms. Ng: Not at all. There are strong environmental provisions in CETA and CPTPP. Like I said, the “C” and the “P.” Certainly, when we renegotiated CUSMA, of course, there are strong environmental — I would also say there are strong labour, environment and other features as well.
But this is an agreement that’s negotiated by both proponents. Here’s one thing I would also say. Ukraine has been aligning their policies — better aligning their policies with the European Union. And the reason — well, I won’t speak for Ukraine, but they certainly are aligning their policies to the European Union. This agreement, in the way that they have negotiated — they have negotiated, and we as well — is actually going to be helpful. It’s a structure that’s going to help them with an aspiration that they wish, which is to integrate more closely with the economy in Europe. So this is going to be a helpful framework for the Ukrainians.
The Chair: Thank you, minister. We’re out of time on that segment. As I said, we can always go to a second round.
Senator MacDonald: Thank you, minister, for being here.
Minister, pursuant to Canada’s Special Economic Measures (Ukraine) Regulations, sanctions are imposed on 483 individuals and 60 entities in Ukraine involved in Russia’s illegal occupation. Witnesses in the recent Senate committee study unanimously called for clearer guidance on interpreting these sanctions to avoid overcompliance and reduce business costs.
How does your department plan to balance the effectiveness of these sanctions with addressing business concerns about overcompliance costs and operational challenges in high-risk regions like Ukraine under Russian occupation?
Ms. Ng: Thank you, Senator MacDonald. Very good to see you.
I would say that — point number one: Sanctions against Russia is a really important tool. It’s an important tool that demonstrates Canada’s commitment to supporting Ukraine, and certainly creating the conditions — well, certainly supporting Ukraine and holding those in Russia to account.
More on — and I think you said the number there, which is 483, but the number I have here is that there are sanctions on 2,900 people and entities, and we want to keep working with our allies to impose severe sanctions on the Russian regime. Canada needs to keep doing this work and to continue to support Ukraine in this regard.
Senator MacDonald: How does your department plan to address any potential backlash or resistance from domestic industries or interest groups that may perceive the modernized CUFTA as a threat to their interest or competitive advantage? How will Canada ensure that the agreement’s benefits are equitably distributed across different sectors and regions?
Ms. Ng: Thank you. That’s an important question. On the point of how will it be dispersed equitably, I suppose — I apologize; I can’t remember the word you just used.
Businesses often say to me, to the government, that they look for predictability and certainty and rules. This legal framework in this trade agreement provides them with the rules and the conditions for them to operate in Ukraine, and with that, they are able to make investments and attract partners and businesses in Ukraine.
In terms of the range of sectors — the business mission, for example, that I’m looking forward to going on with Canadian businesses will be an exercise where we are able to identify what the needs are in Ukraine and what Canadian businesses may serve those purposes. I don’t want to tell the business community how it is that they might work in the community. What I want to do is provide the right conditions, and this legal framework, through the FTA, will do that so they can actually yield the benefits of the opportunity, particularly in the rebuilding of Ukraine.
The Chair: Thank you, minister.
Senator Ravalia: Thank you, minister, and your officials, for being here today.
I’m just wondering if you could highlight what provisions are included in the agreement to protect foreign investments and ensure a stable business environment for Canadian and Ukrainian companies. This is in the context of the repeated concerns that have been referred to with reference to the high level of corruption that had existed in the Ukrainian government.
Ms. Ng: Thank you so much, senator. There are new chapters in this agreement that deal with both transparency and anti-corruption, and having these obligations in this agreement provides the regime for which the Ukrainians, as a trading partner and as a commitment to this legal framework, will have to adhere to.
Before I go further, because you mentioned it and I was remiss in doing that, I want to thank my officials who are in that room and carrying that work while I’m over here in the UAE.
Those are the chapters that are new in this agreement. You might have to actually repeat the question a little bit because my lack of sleep, I think, is just showing in only answering part of your question, senator. My apologies.
Senator Ravalia: My baseline ask of you, minister, was how concerned are you that corruption may get in the way of some of the progress that we hope to make with respect to this bill?
Ms. Ng: Yes. Having these chapters will greatly help, and that’s the point. Your earlier question around investment is — in fact, the Ukrainian government had asked for chapters that would help to facilitate greater investment attraction, which is why we have a chapter on there that allows investors to have greater certainty about the mechanisms for investments into Ukraine.
Senator Ravalia: Thank you, minister.
Senator Kutcher: Thank you, minister, for being with us today. On top of your jet lag, I’m sure you have had a long and busy day, and we are aware that it is about 9:00 at night where you are. So thank you so much.
How important is this agreement for Canadian companies that may be interested in participating in reconstruction projects in Ukraine when the war is over and Ukraine has won?
Ms. Ng: Thank you. The agreement is really important because businesses often say to me that they rely on the rule of law. They rely on a predictable framework where they can understand the rules and, in this case, the trade rules that will govern the business and trading activities. That’s what this agreement is.
Having this in place is an excellent tool for Canadian businesses who want to pursue how they might participate in reconstruction.
What does that reconstruction look like? Canadian businesses will be partnering, for example, in building energy infrastructure or road infrastructure. Services companies like engineering companies or architectural firms might be needed in those services.
When I was out in Saskatchewan and Manitoba, they were talking about equipment that they want to be able to sell into Ukraine but also to provide the people with capacity to train and fulfill service contracts to aid in that rebuilding. It is really important.
What did I just talk about? I talked about a chapter in services. It is not just about shipping the goods over. There are the services of engineers, architects, contractors, who will maintain and provide services in Ukraine. It is a framework that says, “Here are the rules of engagement. Here is the recourse for you around dispute settlements,” and so forth. Should an issue arise, they know the rules and they can count on them, and therefore they will make investments on that basis because they know they can rely on a legal framework between the two countries.
The Chair: Thank you very much. Do any senators want to participate in round one?
Hearing none, I will use my prerogative as chair to ask the minister a question.
Minister, you touched on the investor-state dispute settlement, known as ISDS. It was a big issue in the CETA negotiations that went over two governments here in Canada, and also in terms of CPTPP, the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership. There was also some concern expressed in the renegotiation of CUFTA as well.
Do you have any comments on that? Because in trade policy negotiations, it is a relatively new issue that is looked at. Are you confident that, going ahead, all the measures are in place?
Ms. Ng: I am, and maybe I should expand on why. The ISDS for this agreement is a little different. What do I mean by that? Ukraine knows that they need and want to provide certainty in order to attract investors into Ukraine. The investment provision through ISDS does that.
That’s what we heard in the consultations. It was also something that was important to Ukraine. ISDS, as you know, also allows governments to regulate in areas that are important to their public interest, whether it is education, health care, cultural — that sort of thing. That’s there, but, at the heart of it, they really wanted it because they wanted to have that certainty for investment.
The other thing I would say is that we’ve had a Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection Agreement, a FIPA, with Ukraine since — my notes here say since 1995. From 1995 until now, there have been zero ISDS cases. Any concerns about abuse of use, we just have not seen it, and we’ve had a FIPA since 1995.
The Chair: Thank you very much. We go to round two.
Senator Housakos: Minister, I would like to go back to my previous question and still try to get an answer in terms of the carbon tax amendment that found its way into the Canada-Ukraine agreement. Was it an initiative of the Canadian government or the Ukrainian government?
The follow-up question to that is, going forward, will the Canadian government insist on similar clauses being added to the dozens of trade agreements we have with Asia-Pacific countries, Central American countries, Middle Eastern countries? Is this something that will now be on the negotiating table going forward on all trade agreements?
Ms. Ng: Senator, I want to be clear because it is important to be clear on facts. There is no reference to a carbon tax in this trade agreement nor any Canadian free trade agreement.
The environment chapter contains provisions to facilitate cooperation on matters of mutual interest, including to promote carbon pricing and measures to mitigate carbon leakage. It also includes cooperation provisions to address adverse effects on trade and climate change. Those are the facts.
Ukraine has also had a price on pollution since 1991. That’s also a fact. I also said earlier in my response that a sovereign Ukraine negotiated this agreement with Canada, and we did this together. We discussed all the ranges of the updates to the agreement. You heard me list it through, whether it is rules of origin or procedures, digital trade, competition policy, anti-corruption, ISDS. We did this together. That’s what happens in negotiations. We do this together, and that’s what we’ve done here.
My final point is, this is an excellent agreement. It’s a high-standard agreement, and it will be terrific when companies on both sides are able to really make use of this agreement for the objective of free trade agreements, which is to facilitate greater trade, commerce and greater job creation.
I certainly heard that loud and clear from Canadians and Ukrainian Canadians, in particular, who are interested in really playing a role in the rebuilding of Ukraine.
Senator Housakos: Minister, we are all in favour of rebuilding Ukraine, but, of course, our priority number one right now is to make sure Ukraine wins the war. Canada is sitting on 83,000 surplus CRV7 rockets which the Ukrainian government has been welcoming and looking forward to receiving. It has been a very long time since we promised them, and they have not been delivered.
What does the Canadian government need to do to get these rockets to the front lines in Ukraine? Without that, there is no chance of reconstruction because they won’t win the war. We need to step up and deliver these weapons.
Ms. Ng: Well, senator, the Canadian government has absolutely been there supporting Ukraine in their efforts to win this war.
Maybe I will digress for one second to say that I appreciate the dialogue and the tone in the Senate, as you have been working through this legislation. With Canadians but also Ukrainian Canadians and Ukrainians watching, it’s really important.
I want to say that because I appreciate that very much. For Canada to show its support here and through this very important work that you in the Senate are doing is a real demonstration of that support.
Perhaps, specifically on that question, I may defer to my colleagues, the Minister of Defence and the Minister of Foreign Affairs who are better equipped to give you the details. Suffice it to say that Canada’s support is unwavering. The tone, certainly, of the questions I’m being asked here, and just the general tone, are ones we should actually be proud of. Because Canada’s support for Ukraine and all of us working together is something that is very good.
The Chair: Thank you, minister.
Senator Cardozo: I will just say one word on tone. I appreciate you recognizing that. We do get a lot of witnesses who come to the Senate and say they enjoy the hearings here more than they do at your House. I am glad to see you like the tone at our place, too.
My question is more about the timing going forward. I don’t know whether it is you or officials who would be able to answer this. If this bill passes the Senate in the next short while, what are the next steps? When would you see the act going into effect? What are the steps that have to take place going forward in the next short while?
Ms. Ng: Thank you very much. I will actually ask the officials to answer that. As someone indicated, it indicates that it is late in the evening. It is late in the evening, but the work isn’t done. These negotiations go on a long time and into the evening.
I want to clarify one thing. I think I said Ukraine had a carbon price since 1991. It is not 1991. It is 2011. It goes to show that I misspoke. I will have my colleague, Mr. Foster, who is there, he might be able to answer that question for you, senator.
Dean Foster, Director and Deputy Chief Negotiator, Trade Negotiations – Africa, Americas, Europe, India, Middle East, Global Affairs Canada: Yes. Thank you for the question.
In accordance with Canada’s law, the next step following Royal Assent of the bill would be approval by the Treasury Board cabinet committee of orders in council to bring the legislation into force and bring the agreement into force.
Once those orders in council are in place, approved by the Governor General, the treaty provides for a notification system by diplomatic note with the partner to indicate to each other that each side is ready to bring the agreement into force. In accordance with these provisions of this agreement, it would be the first day of the second month following that exchange.
What we are looking at here is a fastest-case scenario of May 1 or perhaps June 1, provided that the Ukrainian legislature completes its process on their side.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator Harder: Thank you, minister and officials, for being with us.
Minister, you spoke about your plans — assuming this free trade agreement is approved, adopted and implemented — for ensuring Canadian businesses are both aware and take the opportunities that are now available. Could you expand on that in terms of your or your officials’ involvement in outreach planned to Canadian businesses, or perhaps even visits in missions to Ukraine?
Yesterday, we heard from the Canada-Ukraine Chamber of Commerce on their rebuilding conferences of last and this year. Is that going to continue and take advantage of the agreements, hopefully?
Ms. Ng: Thank you, senator.
Indeed, I intend to lead a business mission to Ukraine after this bill comes into force. We have already been actively working with business organizations in Canada, including the Canada-Ukraine Chamber of Commerce.
I’ve been out meeting directly with Canadian businesses, Ukrainian-Canadian businesses, to explore where their interests are and what it is they would like to be doing in Ukraine, or where it is they think they might have some expertise or specialty that will help with the rebuild effort.
That is the work that we do, particularly through the Trade Commissioner Service and Global Affairs Canada. Business and trade missions are an important vehicle where I, as a minister, will lead a Canadian delegation of businesses who want to trade and do business in Ukraine, investors who may wish to look at opportunities in Ukraine.
I fully intend to continue working with business organizations like the ones I’ve mentioned, with businesses themselves, with those on the Ukrainian side.
In fact, the Rebuild Ukraine Business Conference, the second one happened in November; I was there. It was well attended with a lot of interest from traditional Canadian companies in energy, agriculture, resources, a range of companies who are interested in pursuing opportunities in Ukraine.
We will, of course, promote the fact that I’m going to take a mission forward. There is a good system we have in place to help promote and attract Canadian companies who might be interested in this opportunity.
In addition to Ukraine, this year I’m taking five business missions to the Indo-Pacific with hundreds of businesses that will be participating in those five. We have a good system in place. I intend to use that system and work with organizations who also have real experience or knowledge in Ukraine who have expressed interest.
The Chair: Minister, my question follows on Senator Harder’s question.
As you know, a former Canadian ambassador to Ukraine is the business ombudsman in Ukraine. With the implementation and execution of this free trade agreement, do you see a greater role for this individual and his office? It goes back to Senator Ravalia’s earlier question regarding concerns about corruption in certain sectors. How would you see that evolving?
Ms. Ng: I won’t speak specifically about the business ombudsperson. We have good modalities that are set up to monitor and to work with a trading partner to ensure that, where there are issues that arise, we have a modality to be able to work through those issues.
I will give you a couple of examples. Two weeks ago, I met with my European counterpart. This year it happens to be their turn; therefore, I went to Brussels. There are a range of committees set up specifically to go chapter and verse into whether we are meeting our obligations, and they are meeting their obligations.
There will be a period of setting that up in accordance with this agreement so that the agreement is implemented and issues and concerns that do arise be addressed in a structured way as a trade agreement affords.
You can imagine, if issues arise and you don’t have an agreement, then what structured approach would you have to resolve or even to promote? On the one hand, it’s resolving. On the other hand, it is to talk about what is working well and why we might want to do something more together, because it happens to be working well.
I have seen that, as trade minister, in our relationship through CPTPP and CETA, as well as Canada-U.S. For example, in Canada-U.S., we have a new chapter for small- and medium-sized enterprises.
Over the last three free trade commissions that we have had, these are small companies that each country, each of us, has deliberately worked to ensure they are supported by the growth of each other’s economy. That’s really good. These things are usually called joint commissions. We will have one to monitor the implementation of this agreement, similar to what we do with others.
The great thing about this and about Canada is that Canada has many free trade agreements, or FTAs; not only are we really good at negotiating them, because we have coverage of 65% of the world’s economy, but we are also good at operating them, using those modalities and we will do that here in Ukraine as well.
The Chair: Thank you, minister. We have time for a brief third round of questions.
Senator Housakos: Minister and officials, can you share with the committee what the Ukrainian carbon tax is in Canadian dollars per tonne compared to what we pay here in Canada per tonne?
I agree that, when we have these trade agreements, we need to be in full alignment with the trading partners we sign the deals with.
Would the minister or officials know what the actual Ukrainian carbon tax price is per tonne in Canadian dollars compared to ours, if you can share it with the committee?
Ms. Ng: I do not have that number. I will ask my officials if they can answer.
The Chair: Mr. Foster?
Mr. Foster: Unfortunately, I do not have that number. We could endeavour to follow up on it.
I would say the obligation in the agreement is cooperation-based. As such, the obligation that we and Ukraine would have is to speak about the policy topic of carbon pricing and other issues surrounding climate change. I’m not sure the alignment of price is relevant to the provision itself.
Senator Housakos: Why would we negotiate such a clause? In the course of the negotiations, I can’t believe our negotiators would not be savvy enough to have that comparison.
Mr. Foster: I will just say that I don’t have the number in my notes, but we would be able to produce it as a department.
Senator Housakos: You will share that with the committee in due time?
Mr. Foster: I will put the request in, certainly.
The Chair: If you could send that to the clerk, that would be great.
Thank you, senator.
Since there are no other questions, on behalf of the committee, I would like to thank The Honourable Minister Mary Ng for being with us today. You hinted that you still have some work ahead of you, but do get some sleep after that.
Thank you for joining us today. We appreciate it very much, and I would like to thank the departmental witnesses who are here and may be staying a bit longer.
Minister, thank you and good night to you.
Ms. Ng: Thank you. My next meeting is at midnight.
The Chair: Oh, okay.
Colleagues before we begin, I want to mention that we have officials from Global Affairs Canada, Employment and Social Development Canada, the Canada Border Services Agency, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada and the Department of Finance Canada in the room. They are here and available to answer questions if required. We’ve kept our witnesses from the last panel here simply because of the space situation in the room.
We are going to move to clause-by-clause consideration of the bill. We will start now.
Is it agreed that the committee proceed to clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-57, An Act to implement the 2023 Free Trade Agreement between Canada and Ukraine?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
[Translation]
The Chair: Shall the title stand postponed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you.
[English]
Shall clause 1, which contains the short title, stand postponed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Is it agreed, with leave, that the remaining clauses be considered in groups of 10?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall clauses 2 to 11 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
[Translation]
The Chair: Shall clauses 12 to 21 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you.
[English]
Shall clauses 22 to 31 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
[Translation]
The Chair: Shall clauses 32 to 40 carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
[English]
The Chair: Shall clause 1, which contains the short title, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
[Translation]
The Chair: Shall the title carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you.
[English]
Shall the bill carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you.
Colleagues, just to reiterate what I said at the end of yesterday’s meeting, since this is a bill to implement at free trade agreement, I would encourage members to reserve any observations they might have for debate at third reading rather than appending them to our report.
Does the committee wish to consider appending observations to the report?
Hon. Senators: No.
The Chair: Great. You listened to what I said before.
Is it agreed that I report this bill to the Senate in both official languages?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you.
(The committee adjourned. )