THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL TRADE
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Thursday, September 19, 2024
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade met with videoconference this day at 11:30 a.m. [ET] to study foreign relations and international trade generally.
Senator Peter M. Boehm (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Honourable senators, my name is Peter Boehm. I’m a senator from Ontario and the chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade.
Before we begin, I would like to ask all senators and other in‑person participants to consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents. Please make sure to keep your earpiece away from all microphones at all times. When you aren’t using your earpiece, place it face down on the sticker placed on the table for this purpose. Thank you all for your cooperation.
[English]
I wish to invite committee members participating in today’s meeting to introduce themselves.
[Translation]
Senator Gerba: Amina Gerba from Quebec.
[English]
Senator Ravalia: Good morning. Mohamed-Iqbal Ravalia, Newfoundland and Labrador.
Senator Kutcher: Stan Kutcher, Nova Scotia.
Senator MacDonald: Michael MacDonald, Nova Scotia.
Senator Al Zaibak: Mohammad Al Zaibak, Ontario.
Senator Patterson: Rebecca Patterson, Ontario.
Senator Robinson: Mary Robinson, Prince Edward Island.
Senator M. Deacon: Marty Deacon, Ontario.
Senator Boniface: Gwen Boniface, Ontario.
Senator Coyle: Mary Coyle, Antigonish, Nova Scotia.
Senator K. Wells: Kristopher Wells, Alberta.
Senator Woo: Yuen Pau Woo, British Columbia.
The Chair: Thank you very much, colleagues, and I wish to welcome you all as well as those who are watching us across the country today as we deliberate.
Colleagues, today we’re meeting under our general order of reference for an update on the situation in Ukraine. This is, I’m sad to say, our twelfth such meeting, so we have been at this for a while. These updates are always very valuable to us in knowing what is happening on the ground.
For our first panel, we are very honoured to welcome for the first time, by video conference, from Kyiv, Natalka Cmoc. She is the Ambassador of Canada to Ukraine.
Ambassador, welcome to this committee, and thank you for joining us today. We’re ready to hear your opening remarks, and, as per usual, these will be followed by questions from the senators that you may feel compelled to answer. Ambassador, you have the floor.
Natalka Cmoc, Ambassador of Canada to Ukraine, Global Affairs Canada: Thank you.
[Translation]
Honourable senators, thank you for this opportunity to share my experience as an ambassador.
I made a point of visiting as much of Ukraine as possible. I went as far east as Kherson, as far north as Kharkiv and as far south as Odessa.
I remain deeply moved by the resilience, determination and spirit of the Ukrainian people. Although 50% of the people who left Ukraine after the full-scale invasion have returned, this trend is beginning to change as the situation in Ukraine becomes worse.
[English]
There are a few reasons for this, mainly the intensification of the war, which has required conscription and mobilization, and decreasing energy security. In the last few months, there has been a dramatic increase of air strikes. Ukrainians report that approximately 95% of the Russian strikes target critical energy infrastructure, which is causing rolling blackouts. With the amount of damage already caused, we know it will be a difficult winter ahead for Ukraine’s people and economy.
Ukraine’s fight continues to be intense on the front lines. Ukraine’s surprise August 2024 offensive in Russia’s Kursk oblast has revitalized Ukrainian morale and showed that Ukraine can foil Russia.
[Translation]
However, the Ukrainian position on the battlefield remains fraught with difficulties, particularly in Donetsk. Russia has stepped up its air strikes on Ukrainian cities. Recently, dozens of families in Lviv, Poltava and Kharkiv were left devastated by heinous Russian attacks on urban areas.
[English]
The world mourns with a man in Lviv who lost his entire family in one strike: his wife and three daughters, aged 7, 18 and 21. This came a day after an attack in Poltava that killed 58 civilians and wounded over 200 people. In July, I heard and felt the Russian ballistic and cruise missiles that severely damaged the Okhmatdyt hospital in Kyiv, Ukraine’s largest children’s medical complex centre. Miraculously, the four children on the operating tables survived, although the surgical rooms were severely damaged. I visited the hospital the day of the attack and saw with my own eyes the damage and the immense efforts of the rescue crew.
The UN reports that more than 10,000 civilians have been killed and more than 20,000 injured; 14.6 million people need humanitarian assistance. For this winter, the UN is appealing to humanitarian partners like Canada for US$500 million to provide winter assistance to 1.8 million people in need.
The Prosecutor General of Ukraine says that his office has registered more than 130,000 cases of Russian war crimes. The UN documented widespread and routine use of torture and ill‑treatment against civilians and prisoners of war by Russian authorities, confirming that 95% of prisoners of war and detained civilians face torture. I personally met and heard these testimonies. Their experience is eerily consistent: the horrific use of dogs, being made to stand in one spot for over 10 hours, one to two minutes to eat once a day, and the same patterns of sexual abuse.
The loss of human capital and the destruction of energy infrastructure are putting serious pressure on the government, the economy and society.
This year, Ukraine faces no choice but to pass a mobilization law to replace exhausted soldiers on the front lines. They need reprieve. Mobilization means that fighting-age men are now being taken from the labour market, which is, in turn, affecting the economic outlook.
The economy is slowing down with the combination of stress on the energy grid, mobilization and a shadow economy. The economic survival of Ukraine is paramount. Ukraine will try to fill looming budget gaps with painful tax increases; however, it will continue to rely heavily on external financing from countries like Canada.
Air defence is urgently needed.
[Translation]
Ukraine has made significant progress in terms of reforms. This plays a crucial role in securing Ukraine’s place in the Euro‑Atlantic community.
[English]
I want to share with you the needs that Ukraine has conveyed to me: provide more military support, especially air defence; invest in Ukraine’s defence industry with joint ventures; step up our fight against Russian disinformation; continue to lead the way on the use of frozen Russian assets; and speed up Ukraine’s path to NATO accession.
Time is critical, and our unity of purpose has never been more needed or appreciated. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much, ambassador, for your remarks. Colleagues, as usual, we’re keeping a list. Since we have some guest senators here today, I just want to say that I’m giving preference to the members of the committee. There will be time for all of you, certainly, to ask your questions, and if there’s enough time, we will go to a second round.
Senator MacDonald: Thank you, ambassador. China’s involvement in supplying dual-use goods to Russia has significantly undermined the impact of sanctions. Given this, how does Canada manage its economic interests with China given that China plays such a pivotal role in keeping Russia’s military efforts alive? With this knowledge, is it time that Canada should consider tougher measures or even sanctions against Chinese companies and financial institutions involved in such transactions?
Ms. Cmoc: In terms of sanctions, Ukraine views Canada as a global leader on sanctions and, in fact, views that sanctions are effective, that Canadian-Russian trade in sanctioned products is now essentially zero and that Canadian imports from Russia have dropped by 98%. I actually met with the Chinese ambassador about a month ago, and he said that upon visits to Russia they had reported that sanctions are making a difference in their impression. I’m hearing this indirectly, but I would say that they are being effective and that they are making a difference in terms of Russia’s economy.
If I may just add, as you know, we have 3,000 individuals and entities now that Canada has imposed sanctions on in Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and Moldova, and the last ones would have been in May. We had an additional 27 sanctions imposed on individuals and entities.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator MacDonald: Ambassador, there’s a recent New York Times investigation that revealed that Hong Kong-based shell companies are managing to get around sanctions, supplying crucial military technology to Russia. With this in mind, do you think Canada and its allies are doing enough to close these loopholes? Short of sanctions, what concrete steps could Global Affairs Canada take to push for stronger, more coordinated global action to prevent this type of sanction evasion?
Ms. Cmoc: Thank you. I think sanctions from Canada are being effective. I also think that the seized assets is another area. There have been reports of Canadian goods and parts being used in Russian weapons and that exports of items included on the export control list required a permit when exported from Canada. Canada also recently announced a prohibition on the export to Russia of designated goods that could be used to make weapons and serve its war against Ukraine.
So that’s on sanctions and dual use. I do think, though — and I mentioned it in my opening notes — that Ukraine is saying that an important way to balance this could be to invest more directly in the production of military equipment in Ukraine itself through joint ventures, for example. Denmark has already started doing this, as an example.
The Chair: Thank you, ambassador.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you, your Excellency, for being here and the work you’re doing. I’d like to go back a couple of months and get a sense of the Ukraine peace summit that was held in June. There was a failure — failure is maybe too strong of a word — to get much of the Global South to sign on, and I got the sense that perhaps not as much came from the meeting as one had hoped. That is not to say that it was a failure, but I’m sure a few things were learned. I’m wondering what your thoughts are looking back on the summit and if there are any lessons taken that help us get major powers, like India, Brazil and Saudi Arabia, to press Russia to end these hostilities so we can achieve a diplomatic end to this war.
Ms. Cmoc: We are preparing for additional working group meetings to continue those conversations. Ukraine and others have relayed and reported that they felt that the leaders’ forum was very useful. They thought that the Prime Minister was very effective, and one of the methods that they really liked was the smaller group format, where countries could come together and go through some of the practical steps that could be taken.
It has been announced that on October 30-31 Canada will hold a meeting of foreign ministers to discuss working group no. 4, using a very similar approach that was deemed effective at the June meeting that was mentioned. What that would allow is to have countries come together in smaller groups and look at some of the various issues for working group no. 4. It would be focused on returning prisoners of war, detained civilians and children.
In terms of the Global South, I’ve been asked to meet with ambassadors from specific Global South countries, from the Ukrainians, and I have done so, with the knowledge, of course, of headquarters in Ottawa. As I mentioned, I have met with the Chinese ambassador, with the Brazilian ambassador, with Türkiye’s ambassador, and I have meetings scheduled with the new Indian ambassador, as well as ambassadors of South Africa and Qatar.
There is openness to continue to have these conversations with Canada, share information on the peace formula and willingness on their part to consider attending, for example, the meeting in Canada on October 30-31 to continue these conversations. I believe that on certain topics, like the human dimension, they have expressed willingness to continue working in this area. The Global South partners have actually been quite successful in helping Ukraine in bringing back some people, including 150, I believe, prisoners of war who were returned more recently.
Senator M. Deacon: My second question would have been, and I think you answered some of it, about the world’s attention on this conflict, in particular when other conflicts are at play, and what you think about our allied nations losing sight of the importance of this. You’ve described some actions that are being taken, but that would have been my second question. I think I’ll leave it right there.
The Chair: Thank you, senator; that’s probably wise because you’ve run out of time. But it’s good to get your would-have-been question on the record.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you.
Senator Ravalia: Thank you, ambassador, to you and your team for all the work you’re doing in this particularly difficult time.
I was hoping you may be able to outline for me where Canada stands on Ukraine’s ability to launch recently acquired long-range missiles and other sophisticated armaments directly into Russian territory, targeting military sites. We’ve heard some rumblings that the U.S. and the U.K. have had discussions on this. Are you privy to any further information, and where do we stand on this point?
Ms. Cmoc: Mr. Chair, I understand that our Prime Minister publicly stated on September 13 that Canada has no issue with long-range weapons being used for Ukraine to be able to defend itself according to international law. There are no geographic restrictions in terms of the Canadian donations. There are no geographic restrictions on the use of donated Canadian material as long as Ukraine follows international law.
In terms of long-range weapon use, Ukrainians have explained and reassured the ambassadors in Kyiv that a lot of the need for long-range weapons is because of the glide bombs, from what I understand, so they would be directed to the areas where they’re launched from.
I have also heard that the operation in Kursk was, in part, to capture what was believed to be a launching point for some of this, but that is not enough. That is my understanding of the situation. Thank you.
Senator Ravalia: In a follow-up, and changing gears somewhat, in the event the upcoming U.S. election leads to a Republican victory, what do you feel are the potential impacts on the war, and are we preparing in anticipation of such a possible forthcoming change?
Ms. Cmoc: Mr. Chair, that is the big question, isn’t it? I know there’s a lot of conversation in Ukraine. There was a lot of conversation at the conferences I attended this past week, and I attended the Yalta European Strategy conference, where there was a big presence of congressmen and others in the room, and that was the discussion. Both sides reported at the conference that the commitment to Ukraine is unwavering, so that is what I heard them share to the Ukrainians.
Regardless, we are hearing consistently that there is definitely urgency in support, wherever it comes from, that Ukraine does have the military training, the capacity and the strategy, but they’re lacking timely ammunition and other weaponry, so it’s the delay from the commitment to it arriving in the country, and that is consistent wherever the commitments have been made.
But Canada continues to encourage allies and partners to consider long-term support for Ukraine, and we must signal to Russia that it cannot wait us out. Thank you.
Senator Ravalia: Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Gerba: Ambassador, you spoke about the effectiveness of sanctions against Russia. However, in 2023, growth in Russia reached 4% and its unemployment rate fell to 2.6%. In July, the World Bank even placed Russia on the list of high-income countries. The country seems to be reaping the full benefits of the wartime economy put in place. Moreover, Russia remains the world’s largest exporter of raw materials.
How do you view the apparent strength of the Russian economy and the real effectiveness of international and Canadian sanctions against Russia?
[English]
Ms. Cmoc: I’m trying to find my notes for that. I apologize; I don’t have a lot of information in terms of Russia’s economy and its effect in terms of the sanctions directly in specific statistics, unfortunately. My apologies.
[Translation]
Senator Gerba: This ties in with a question asked earlier. Our colleague asked about the Prime Minister’s recent statement giving his full support for Ukraine’s use of long-range weapons. I think that this question has already been answered. However, the United States and the United Kingdom have not yet officially authorized the use of these long-range weapons. France remains ambiguous on the topic. Germany refuses these deliveries outright. Could you elaborate on Canada’s position? It seems to stand in stark contrast to our allies’ position. What risks of escalation are associated with this decision to authorize the use of long-range weapons?
[English]
Ms. Cmoc: Mr. Chair, I have now found information on the first question, if I may. Russia’s GDP fell by 2.2% in 2022, but grew in 2023 by 3.6%.
In terms of Canadian imports from Russia, they have dropped by 98% in value versus the same period in 2022, while Canadian exports to Russia have fallen by over 80% during the same period.
In terms of Russia’s growth, in 2024, it is forecasted at 3.2%, largely due to the war spending effort. It has also led to high inflation and high interest rates.
In terms of the long-range weapons, I am not certain. I do know that Canada has not donated long-range weapon capacities to Ukraine, but we have not put restrictions on the donations that Canada has donated to Ukraine.
The Chair: Thank you, ambassador.
Senator Coyle: Thank you, ambassador, for being with us today. It is important for us to be touching base with you and getting your perspective from on the ground there.
We’ve had conversations at this table about both cybersecurity and issues of disinformation. I believe that last time we met, we heard about some cooperative efforts to combat both of these threats — the threat to cybersecurity and the threat of disinformation. Are you able to speak to us about what Canada is doing and what we are doing in collaboration with others in these two important areas?
Ms. Cmoc: Canada is supporting cybersecurity through what was the peace, security in operations program in this area as well as disinformation through various programs. Canada supports specifically the international community in detecting, correcting and calling out Russian state-sponsored disinformation campaigns.
The G7-led Global Partnership Against the Spread of Weapons and Materials of Mass Destruction is another area. Journalists for Human Rights supports exiled Russian and Belarusian independent media organizations and journalists as well as efforts to enhance Ukrainian media literacy and fact-checking capabilities to better counter disinformation in the country.
There are multiple facets of how Canada has been supporting these areas. Canada has also offered support in terms of preventing hybrid warfare. We know that Russia continues to deploy all levers of state power to pursue its strategic interest, which includes pressuring Canada and our allies and partners to drop our support to Ukraine. Throughout 2024, the Kremlin has been increasing its “grey zone” operations in Europe, including assassinations, cyberattacks, espionage, sabotage and weaponized migration, among others. Canada understands the threat and is carefully monitoring and addressing all aspects of it. We are committed, as Canada, to deterring malicious hybrid operations and responding when they occur.
Senator Coyle: I know this is not necessarily related to our central topic today, but I’m curious because Russian cybersecurity threats and disinformation threats are enormous in Ukraine, but they are also a big issue here. Do we have — I’m assuming we do, and I would just like to hear about how we are sharing — the knowledge and experience that have been gained on the ground in Ukraine with those operating here in Canada, within the Government of Canada, who are also trying to deal with those in our own domestic situation.
Ms. Cmoc: Working closely with the Five Eyes partners, the EU, the U.S. and the U.K., in particular, we coordinate our cyberassistance to Ukraine, as well as with the private sector and broader multi-stakeholder community. Global Affairs Canada engaged in shaping the Tallinn Mechanism, which is a multi-state initiative focused on civilian cybercapacity-building support to Ukraine. We issue attribution statements to undermine Russia’s bid for plausible deniability in Ukraine.
Operation UNIFIER includes CAF-led support and training on cyberdefence operations as well. Further funding is allocated to help protect multiple Ukrainian government ministries and critical national infrastructure entities, which have experienced a range of disruptive and destructive impacts from cyberoperations.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator Boniface: Thank you, ambassador, for joining us. Thanks to you and your staff for the work that you’re doing.
I would like to get a little more information on pledges that have been made by Canada to Ukraine around equipment support. We are now soon going into winter, and we have heard at this table in previous years the difficulty of winter and war. I would like to know what Canada has promised but what has not yet been received by Ukraine and what priorities we as parliamentarians should be keeping our eye on to ensure that delivery is successful.
Ms. Cmoc: In addition to the military equipment pledges, energy would be the second one, in particular, concerning winter. In terms of members of the G7+ Energy Coordination Group, in June, our Prime Minister announced $20 million to support the repair of Ukraine’s damaged energy infrastructure. Canada issued a five-year $500-million Ukraine Sovereignty Bond through the International Monetary Fund, or IMF, to help purchase fuel and restore energy. Canada provided $150 million to repair power grids of Kyiv through the World Bank, and Canada has also provided loan guarantees to enable a European €300-million loan to Naftogaz.
Senator Boniface: I just need clarity. Are you saying that this is a commitment, or has some of that been delivered? I’m trying to figure out where the gap is between pledging and delivering.
Ms. Cmoc: Some of that is a pledge, and some of that has been committed. The June commitment of $20 million to support and repair has been announced. I’m not sure where it is in the process of being delivered, but it is being worked on. The five‑year Ukraine Sovereignty Bond through the IMF, I believe, has been delivered, and the World Bank, I believe, has been delivered as well.
The Chair: Thank you, ambassador.
Senator Kutcher: I have two questions. If we don’t get through the first, maybe I can go on the second round.
Ambassador, before I ask you this question, I want to acknowledge that you are living in a war zone and that you are facing exactly the same terrors that my family faces in Kyiv every single day and night. On behalf of us, I would like to hope for your continued safety and to thank you for so effectively representing Canada there.
I would like to focus on drones. Ukraine itself makes about 3,000 FPV drones per day. Canada recently announced that we gave Ukraine 800 drones. Ukraine goes through 10,000 drones per month, so we gave them two and a half days’ worth. In my discussions with manufacturers in Ukraine, it’s clear that our drones are technologically inferior to what they create themselves.
Has there been any thought, instead of gifting technologically inferior drones that will last two and a half days, that we should support the Ukrainian industry that makes these drones itself much more effectively, probably more cost-effectively and much more quickly than we would be able to help?
Ms. Cmoc: Thank you for the question. Canada donated 900 Canadian-made drones and invested in Ukraine’s domestic production. Unfortunately, I do not have the details. I do know that companies have visited Ukraine to be able to further have those conversations, but I do not, unfortunately, have the details about where they are in that process and that discussion.
Senator Kutcher: Thank you. First off, that’s something that we’ll maybe want to look at in more detail sometime.
I would like to switch slightly to Central Asia, although this is still on Ukraine and the issue of sanctions evasion. Imports from Western countries to Kazakhstan have gone up about 2,000% over the last year, and Kazakhstan is now a viable transshipment point for sanctioned products from Western countries going to Russia. The United States is in a bit of a pickle because if it pushes Kazakhstan too hard to stop what they are doing, they will push them potentially further into the Russian orbit because they are members of the Shanghai group.
What role would Canada have to play in potentially working with Kazakhstan and other Central Asian republics to try to mitigate this sanctions evasion?
Ms. Cmoc: Canada has a prohibition on the export of goods that could be used by Russia to make weapons and serve its war effort from whatever channel it goes through. We are seized with improving the effectiveness and continue to monitor these third countries. We have undertaken advocacy on circumvention with select countries with an increased outreach to Canadian businesses.
Canada and its partners are increasingly seized with improving the effectiveness of our sanctions, including by working together to enhance enforcement. We strongly adhere to the G7 commitment to step up our efforts against evasion, circumvention of our sanctions, as well as export control measures, and we continue, as I mentioned, to monitor third countries that are of heightened concern due to atypical increases in export development. We are monitoring export volumes and destinations of goods on the common high priority list, particularly as they relate to possible higher-risk — countries.
The Chair: Thank you, senator. Did you say you wanted a second round question as well?
Senator Kutcher: I can certainly do one.
The Chair: We’re not there yet. I just want to make sure we put you on the list.
Senator Patterson: Ambassador, I would like to echo Senator Kutcher. I’m aware every time your microphone flickers, and I wonder what is incoming. Thank you for doing what you’re doing.
I want to switch gears a bit. I’m very aware that one of the challenges that you have brought up is in terms of having enough warriors to conduct the nitty-gritty tactical fight. That has been a challenge. Canada is certainly contributing through Operation UNIFIER out of country. This is an incredibly valuable service, but the fewer people you have to fight and the longer you take them out of the country, the more you’re thinning out your front lines.
Now, I am aware of some private international assistance in terms of training wounded warriors — to train the trainer — to have them go to the front lines to start helping train soldiers in situ, meaning they are there, and they are training in real time with people with actual battle experience, which most Western nations don’t have.
Are you aware of these initiatives, and is there anything that Canada could do, whether it’s on the private side or even on our military side, to get to the soldiers where they are?
Thank you.
Ms. Cmoc: Mr. Chairman, as was stated, Operation UNIFIER currently trains Ukrainian soldiers and does train-the-trainer mostly outside Ukraine: in Poland, Latvia and England. So far, 42,000 soldiers have been trained since 2014.
There are conversations about how to — in terms of other countries — Ukraine has made it clear that it would be very helpful to have more training in the country, so they do make that plea to Canada and all the other allies.
As mentioned, there are private sector — I would say non‑governmental — companies that come to Ukraine and conduct sapper training or unexploded ordnance training and a lot more advanced medical combat training, including Canadian NGOs that have been there as well. All of that assistance inside the country is just as appreciated; however, I do have to say that I still get a lot of thanks for all of the work that Operation UNIFIER does as well.
Thank you.
Senator Patterson: I really want to focus on what these NGOs are doing with wounded Ukrainian warriors, who obviously know what a Canadian in Operation UNIFIER wouldn’t know as well.
While that initiative must continue, can you see any role for Canada, whether it’s through funding or through NGOs’ very targeted training of Ukrainian wounded warriors to train other soldiers, basically teaching people to fish, so to speak?
Ms. Cmoc: There has been an increased plea to have those who have been injured, in particular if they are amputees who still want to be actively involved in service, to be able to have a greater role in training others, whether it’s tactical training, medical training or an advisory function. That is being raised by Ukrainians and others, and looking at ways how that could be done, whether it’s support through the Ukrainian private sector or government and potentially other countries as well.
The Chair: Thank you very much. I’m going to use my privilege as chair to ask a question, maybe two.
Ambassador, as you know, in Kyiv there are a lot of comings and goings of ministers and of leaders. There is a lot of coordinating activity that the government of Ukraine, of course, has to undertake for that. You yourself are a member of an ambassadors’ group, the G7 group, that meets regularly, that consults. If I am doing the proper calculation, you will be chairing that group as of January.
I have some familiarity with that group from my previous life, but I would like to know what you think in terms of its effectiveness on coordination and on exchange of information. For example, if you have had a high-level visit of one leader or a minister or someone from Brussels from the European Commission, how does that work, and does it enhance what you do on the ground?
Ms. Cmoc: Mr. Chairman, as you’ve stated, the G7 Ambassadors’ Support Group on Ukraine was a commitment or an ask from the 2015, I believe, G7 meeting. It has been a group that has been operating very well. We meet about every two weeks, and we frequently meet with Ukrainian interlocutors and stakeholders. On average, we could meet one to three times a week.
What has been very effective is also the tweeting that the group does. Ukraine does respond, and we see that.
I would say that it’s an advisory function, primarily, for the reform agenda. It’s the G7 ambassador. It’s also the European Union ambassador, who leads on the reform for EU accession, as well as other reform agendas, mainly judicial, anti-corruption and so on.
They have been making remarkable progress. As Ukraine has said, a lot of it has been from the support it’s getting from the G7 members separately but also collectively. There is a very strong advisory and trusted relationship in that group where we share information in terms of Ukraine’s agenda and Ukraine’s aspirations but also — as you mentioned, Mr. Chairman — it’s sharing information from visits that each of our countries have had at a high level and preparing each other to be able to share notes on the various topics.
Going forward, it would be more on democracy inclusion, rule of law, transparency and accountability. We meet and we take the IMF benchmarks as a lot of the work that guides the advice that we provide. We, of course, work closely with the IMF group that now has a presence in the country and with the expanded and sort of heightened role of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, or NATO, liaison group that is now being led by a more senior person by the name of Patrick Turner, with whom we met two weeks ago.
The Chair: Thank you, ambassador.
In your discussions — and I reflect on the words of a previous witness at this committee, the Deputy Prime Minister for Restoration of Ukraine — does that enter into your conversations, given the level of destruction by Russian forces of basic infrastructure, especially power plants?
Ms. Cmoc: Yes, Mr. Chair.
A lot of the work in terms of the reconstruction itself is done more on the development side of the work, which does also have a head of cooperation group here that goes beyond the G7 group. They meet to make sure that there is coordination in terms of the reconstruction and to advise Ukraine on some of their work, including energy.
Ukraine has shared with the G7 Ambassadors’ Support Group, as well as through the headquarters operation group, on its plans for decentralization and greening. It’s a topic that also comes up frequently by various governors of Ukraine that are looking to decentralize and diversify their energy infrastructure.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator Kutcher: Thank you again, ambassador. I have two brief questions.
One relates to the recent successful strike at Toropets, which, as people will know, is not that far from Moscow. Apparently, the explosions registered 2.8 on the Richter scale, which is quite a big bang, I think.
Sadly, though, the missiles in that place were mostly from Iran and North Korea. The question is, how can Canada and other Western countries work more effectively to mitigate the supply line transfer of these missiles from North Korea and Iran, which are killing Ukrainians every day?
Ms. Cmoc: Mr. Chairman, I do not have the answer to that question. I know that it is discussed, and it was raised by the Minister of Defence here. It is something that we know is occurring, and it is actively a preoccupation of Ukrainians.
Again, they use these briefings to be able to pivot to and ask for more weapon supply and parts, at least, to be invested into Ukraine itself whether that is including Canadian firms, whether it’s a joint investment with defence companies in Ukraine or, for example, conversations with some of Canadian defence companies that I have taken part in. It is maybe, at least, bringing the parts over and having them assembled in Ukraine. Those conversations are being had, but, again, their belief is that by having it either made in Ukraine or put together in Ukraine will speed up delivery by a lot.
As I mentioned, we know that Denmark has already taken that approach, and others are in conversations with Ukraine, looking at ways that they could invest in the domestic production. In that vein, they are also looking at ways that perhaps intellectual property could be shared with Ukraine through our trusted relationships or agreements that we have in place bilaterally as well.
Senator Kutcher: Recently, the IMF staff visit to Ukraine was dropped, mostly, in my understanding, by European protests. I don’t know if the IMF has future plans to visit Ukraine — to visit Russia, sorry — or not. What is Canada’s position on the IMF re-engaging with Russia at this point in time?
Ms. Cmoc: The G7 Ambassadors’ Support Group met with the IMF group that came to visit — I think it was last week or two weeks ago — where they discussed the progress on the IMF benchmarks and, overall, provided a pretty positive report on reform and also shared with Ukraine a report on continued progress required. That is about all I have, but it will be specifically related to the tax.
One of the customs reforms actually passed through the readings in the Ukrainian parliament just this week. There was also the 2025 budget, which was part of those conversations. A very clear, strong emphasis of the IMF conversation was the need for finding a way for the $50-billion loan commitment that was made by the G7 partners and questions on what the conditions would be and how that would proceed to Ukraine. IMF was very optimistic about the timing for it to be around by winter 2025, next winter.
The Chair: Thank you, ambassador.
Senator M. Deacon: I have a short question. There was something in the introductory comments I’ve been thinking about. Near the end, you talked about looking at these frozen assets from the oligarchs. I would like you to come back to that if you don’t mind, and perhaps you could share your thoughts of what that looks like. What do you think is now the scope and scale of what these assets are? What it could mean, and how long — just give us a sense if you don’t mind.
Ms. Cmoc: The conversation on the proceeds of the frozen assets is an active conversation here. It’s unprecedented. The community feels very positively; Ukrainians feel very positively. Europeans spoke about it; the EU ambassador speaks quite positively about this, but what I’m talking about is the proceeds of the assets being used for Ukraine. They are still working out, from I understand, how that would be done and what some of the constraints are, but, overall, there is a pretty good sense that it is moving forward and will be available to Ukraine.
The Russian sovereign assets in Canada’s jurisdiction will remain immobilized until the Russian Federation has compensated Ukraine. Thank you.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you.
Senator Al Zaibak: I would follow up on Senator Kutcher’s question. I think the question was directed to the ambassador in relation to the IMF’s engagement with Russia rather than with Ukraine. I’m not sure that we got the right answer to the question, ambassador.
Ms. Cmoc: I am not sure I can really speak to the IMF’s role with Russia. It was not discussed in the meeting that I mentioned. I just don’t feel I have enough information to be able to share at this point.
The Chair: Ambassador, I think the committee understands that, of course, your responsibility is Ukraine, but it does give me the idea that at a future meeting we might wish to have our Executive Director at the IMF as a witness to probe this a little bit further.
Ambassador, on behalf of the committee, I would like to thank you for appearing today, for giving us your wisdom. Also, on behalf of the committee, I want to thank you and your very dedicated staff, both Canada-based and locally engaged, for the job that you do for Canada in Ukraine under difficult circumstances. Thank you very much. I dare say, we may be seeing you again. Thank you.
Ms. Cmoc: Thank you very much.
The Chair: Colleagues, we will now proceed with our second panel, and we are indeed honoured to welcome Her Excellency Yuliya Kovaliv, Ambassador of Ukraine to Canada.
Ambassador, welcome back to this committee; you’re no stranger to us. You’re here for the fifth time as a witness. We appreciate your time. We thank you, of course, for being with us today to discuss the weighty subject of the war in Ukraine, in your country. We’re ready to hear your opening remarks, and this will be followed by questions from the senators and, of course, your answers. Ambassador, you have the floor.
Her Excellency Yuliya Kovaliv, Ambassador, Embassy of Ukraine to Canada, as an individual: Honourable chair, honourable members of the committee, thank you for this opportunity. It’s my big pleasure and honour to be here today. Thank you for putting a Ukraine update on your agenda as you resume your sittings.
First, let me thank you for the robust and steadfast support of Ukraine as we continue to fight against the illegal Russian invasion. Your strong standing is highly valued as we continue to fight the biggest conventional war on the European continent since the Second World War. But the implication of Russian aggression against Ukraine has an impact far beyond Ukrainian borders and the European continent, as it challenges the core concept of the international rules-based order and respect of the sovereignty of each and every country in the world.
Let me brief you on the situation in Ukraine. Despite Russian attempts to move forward and the lack of ammunition and equipment that the Ukrainian armed forces are feeling, we managed to stabilize the situation over the past weeks, particularly in the Donetsk region. Now, most of the fighting takes place in the area of Pokrovsk and Kurakhove.
Russia has an advantage in air and manpower, but the enemy losses in this war are significantly higher. Russia witnessed irreplaceable losses of over 634,000 soldiers.
Russian troops brutally violate the Chemical Weapons Convention by using gas grenades as well as improvised explosive devices equipped with irritant substances.
Russia continues to accumulate troops and to demonstrate its commitment to the war of attrition. Just recently, on September 16, the Russian dictator, Putin, signed a decree on increasing the manpower of the Russian army by 180,000 people.
Russia has taken all ammunition from Belarus and uses artillery shells and ballistic missiles from North Korea as well as Iranian drones to increase its capability to attack Ukraine. Putin can get more than enough and relatively cheaply from North Korea. Meanwhile, for us, it’s hard to get all that we and our soldiers need on the front line. North Korea has already supplied the aggressor with at least 10,000 shipping containers, which could hold as many as 4.8 million artillery shells and up to 50 ballistic missiles that the Kremlin is using to bombard Ukraine.
While not having strategic success on the battlefield, Russia seeks to destroy everything it cannot capture and continues their missile and drone attacks. Since the beginning of the full-scale invasion, Russia has launched over 9,600 missiles against Ukraine; nine gigawatts of power has been destroyed or significantly damaged, and we’re ahead of a very hard winter.
Since June, Russian soldiers have struck the Okhmatdyt children’s clinic, the biggest children’s hospital in Kyiv, and there is the tragedy in Pokrovsk, Lviv, Kharkiv and many other cities. There were 184 civilians killed and 856 injured in August alone, and it is the second-highest monthly casualty number in 2024, after July.
There are two specific decisions that our partners can make to help us to put an end to this Russian terror. First is affirming Ukraine’s long-range strikes on all legitimate military targets on Russian territory. We need to be able to destroy the places where Russia launches these missiles. We need to be able to destroy their logistic chains. We saw back in 2022 that when we, with the use of HIMARS, were able in the Kherson region to destroy logistic chains of the Russian military and other targets, we were able to liberate a part of the Kherson region.
Another thing is helping us to shut down Russian missiles and drones, especially closer to our neighbours’ borders. We see the evidence that those missiles and drones are flying over our neighbouring countries too. As President Zelenskyy said, “Belarus is taking the lead in shooting down Russian drones.”
We value Canada’s position on the support of Ukraine’s ability to use long-range weaponry against legitimate Russian military targets.
We’re not only fighting the war but also continuing on our important path to EU membership. In June, together with Moldova, we began official accession negotiations with the EU.
On August 21, the Ukrainian parliament ratified the Rome Statute, and Ukraine became the one hundred and twenty-fifth country that is a party to the Rome Statute.
We continue to implement structural reforms in coordination with the EU, the IMF, and the Ukraine Facility program aims to make the Ukrainian economy more competitive and resilient and align Ukraine’s legislation with the EU laws.
We continue to repair damaged infrastructure and provide support to those resilient businesses working during the war time.
I could probably say a lot more, but there’s one last point I want to raise in my opening remarks. Last but not least, I want to draw your attention to Russian disinformation. Disinformation campaigns are targeting human will, and Russia is targeting disinformation campaigns to try to destroy support for Ukraine, try to disunite us.
From the military perspective, as General Wayne Eyre recently said well, if human will is affected before the first shot is fired, that is winning even before fighting. So this is a very important thing. I think we need to collectively understand how Russia has been sophisticated in these disinformation campaigns, and these campaigns are well funded, and we all need to take this danger very seriously. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much, ambassador, for your comments. Colleagues, as per usual, we will proceed in four‑minute segments. Please keep your preambles short so the ambassador has enough time to answer questions.
Senator Patterson: Ambassador, one of the big challenges we continually hear about is not only the slowness with which other countries are bringing their donations into Ukraine but also the physical challenges of crossing into Ukraine through Poland. Often we talk about creating a land route, an air route and air security so you have more than just the road and train to bring in supplies.
How is Ukraine doing in terms of moving forward on securing an air route, and what support does Ukraine need to achieve that action?
Ms. Kovaliv: Usually, from Ottawa to Kyiv it takes 36 hours: a flight, two trains or a car. Car traffic is also limited because of the curfew hours, which were implemented in 2022.
It is impossible to open an air route when every day drones and missiles are flying in the sky. It’s for the safety of all of us and, first of all, the safety of aviation. That cannot be done in the circumstances like this. The first thing is, indeed, to boost air defence, and the air defence and the missiles are for the protection of the civilian infrastructure.
But as I mentioned, our ability to target inside Russia, those military targets where Russia is launching these missile attacks, is as important as to protect, with air defence, our cities. So today there is no air traffic, first of all, because of the safety and security situation — which Russia caused, of course — and that’s why, unfortunately, we have only two routes of delivery and two routes for people to travel to Ukraine.
Senator Patterson: We are also trying to get enough fighter jets and to train pilots to come and help defend that airspace. While we realize they’re not the most effective drone fighters, we know there are larger types of threats through missiles and even enemy aircraft that need to be dealt with. How is Ukraine doing in getting both receipt of fighter jets and training of pilots?
Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you. There was a big way we all went together, making these decisions that Ukraine finally got the fighter jets. That was a very cheerful moment for the people of Ukraine. Seeing the picture with the first F-16 with a Ukrainian flag on it, indeed, it gives hope to people.
And, of course, it’s an important path because we need a quantity not only of the airplanes but also of well-trained pilots, engineers and all the supply chain that can maintain these fighter jets. We are grateful to Canada for stepping in as a part of the fighter jets coalition and helping to train Ukrainian soldiers.
We know that during the Second World War, Canada was named the Aerodrome of Democracy, training a lot of pilots for the coalition, and we’re really grateful today that many Ukrainian pilots are being trained here in Canada.
Senator Patterson: Thank you.
Senator Coyle: Welcome back to you. We feel honoured that you’re taking the time to be with us at this committee this afternoon, because we know how busy you are. It matters greatly to us to hear from you.
Since Ukraine has started its limited mobilization within Russian territory, targeting strategic military targets, as you have suggested, I have two questions related to that, and you’ve started to allude to it a bit.
What has that done for the mood inside Ukraine, for the will of the Ukrainian people at this very difficult time to continue? What needs to be continued to win this war?
Second, how is Ukraine’s military and governance structure ensuring that it’s doing this in the absolutely cleanest, most law-abiding way so that it will be above reproach?
Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you. You mean the Kursk operation, yes? This operation resolved a few issues for us, first of all, preventing the occupation of Sumy and Chernihiv regions. You saw a few months ago Russian attempts near Kharkiv region to attack in the community of Vovchansk. We saw and witnessed especially in those regions a very heavy use of Russian aerial guided bombs. They’re heavy bombs; they destroy everything: civilian infrastructure, residential buildings.
In order to save the lives of our citizens, including children, and to protect our territory of Ukraine from Russian attacks, the armed forces conducted a defensive operation in the Kursk area so that we deprive the enemy of the ability to manœuvre and use the territory in the vicinity of the big cities and communities in Ukraine to target them.
It also has implications on the situation on the front line. Russia reduced the use of artillery, particularly in the area of Pokrovsk. Before that operation, Russia was prevailing 1 to 12 in artillery, and now it’s 1 to 2.5. From the military perspective, we achieved our goals.
A military command office has been established in the Kursk region to maintain law and order and ensure the priority needs for the population and the vital function of that region.
Our defence forces are obeying the law. One of the best examples is that we just ratified the Rome Statute. That says a lot about the commitment. I’m also very grateful that the Operation UNIFIER training program, where Canadian soldiers are training Ukrainian ones, includes the law of war and the international legislation, including the Geneva Convention and other international laws which are applied, as part of this training program in terms of the education. So for us, it’s serious.
We also invited several international humanitarian organizations to be present to also ensure, helping us to provide support. We are taking it very seriously because we understand the importance of it.
[Translation]
Senator Gerba: Welcome back to the committee, Your Excellency. It’s always a pleasure to have you here.
In mid-June this year, Ukraine organized a peace summit in Switzerland with around 100 countries. Russia wasn’t invited to this summit. China then refused to attend. In the run-up to a second peace summit, scheduled to take place this year, President Zelenskyy expressed his wish for Russia to take part.
Can you tell us what has changed between the two summits?
[English]
Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you.
Indeed, on June 15-16 in Switzerland, there was the first inaugural peace summit. There were 101 delegations from countries around the globe; different parts of the world were participating. We are grateful to the Government of Canada and the Prime Minister for his participation and also for his leadership on the humanitarian panel, which covers the challenges we have from the human dimension perspective.
After the first, inaugural peace summit, we are working in working groups, which are following the discussion and the summit. Each of the following working groups covers 10 points of the “peace formula” of President Zelenskyy and, working on these, our joint effort and the mechanisms that will be applied to introduce and implement the formula. One of those will be in late October here in Canada. We are doing our work to develop the road map and the instruments for the implementation of this formula, and then that will be presented to all of the parties, including Russia.
You need to understand Ukraine wants peace more than anybody else, but Ukraine wants this peace to be just and lasting. Since 2014, when Russia illegally occupied Crimea and parts of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, we have had over 200 different types of negotiations. We had tried ceasefires. There was the Normandy format with the leaders of France and Germany, with Putin and with Ukraine. We saw this history, and we learned the lesson. Russia didn’t want real peace. Now, what is in the peace formula is the concept of this long-lasting and just peace, which includes the restoration of our sovereign borders, covering all the damages Russia caused, a mechanism to prevent further aggressions and also, which is an important part, the human lives — prisoners of war, children illegally deported, who need to be brought back.
All this is now being worked through. The working groups were the big international presence so that it’s not only Ukraine. We are very open to many countries, and many countries from different continents — Europe, North America, South America, Africa — other parts of these working groups. I think we all agree that food cannot be the weapon and energy cannot be the weapon. Russia cannot continue to occupy the biggest nuclear power plant on the European territory under the huge risk for millions of people. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you, ambassador.
Senator Ravalia: Thank you, Your Excellency, for being here with us. We certainly appreciate your insights, and it’s always a pleasure to see you.
With the increased attacks on critical energy infrastructure across Ukraine, the upcoming winter will undoubtedly be particularly challenging for Ukrainians. We’ve had some previous discussions here on the supports needed in generating power. I wonder if you could elaborate on what your current needs are and how Canada and the global community can assist in this regard to ensure there’s some semblance of power generation through the upcoming winter.
Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you. Indeed, part of the tactics in a broader sense is that Russia is using energy as a weapon. It started with the blockade of gas supply to Europe back in 2022. Now their strategy is to deprive people of energy, electricity, water and heating in such a way as to break morale. We saw it back in 2022 and 2023, and now we’re into 2024, and the scale is much bigger.
Russia blew up a water dam last year. Russia is targeting the generation of power. Russia is targeting electricity grids. Today we lost nine gigawatts of power in the system. There are days when Ukrainian people are living without electricity for 10 to 14 hours. The recent UN estimation is that people will be without electricity from 4 to 10 hours a day during the wintertime. It is in highly densely populated cities, where people are living in apartment buildings. It means they cannot cook food, there is no heat, there is no hot water.
There is also one other challenge — there is a very limited access to mobile connections, which is one of the big dangers. What people also want is their access to information, being able to use the systems of information about the attacks, the sirens — which are now done in Ukraine in a digital format as well — and also just being able to reach their close ones, asking, “Are you okay?” after another attack. Of course, the big focus is to repair part of that infrastructure but also to protect it.
The problem is that without enough air defence, as soon as we continue to repair power generation and power grids, they can attack again. That’s why it is a complex plan, both to support — and I’m here and I want to thank those Canadian companies that provided us with the equipment and also the government for announcing the funding that will go to support the energy rebuilding. The timing is very pressing on us because in several weeks it will become colder. Both here and in Ukraine, the winters are cold, so this will be another big challenge for us.
Senator Ravalia: Thank you.
Senator M. Deacon: This is the third winter. It’s difficult. Thank you both for being here — I really appreciate it — and in person. It’s so important.
I’d like to bring a question specifically concerning mines and other unexploded ordnance in Ukraine, particularly those located on this fertile farmland that Ukraine needs, the farmland that feeds the rest of the world. How is the progress going on clearing these areas to make them workable once more? I can only imagine how challenging it is in an active war zone with new mines and bombs being seeded every day.
Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you. Indeed, Ukraine today is one of the most mined countries in the world. Around 144,000 square kilometres or about 25% of the country’s total area remains potentially contaminated with Russian mines or other explosive devices.
Thanks to the joint efforts — and Canada played a big role here by donating to us the equipment, the big demining machines that help to, first of all, focus on the farm fields to reduce, by around 30,000 square metres, the territory which has been at risk for the last two years.
This is the beginning of the full-scale invasion: 529,000 explosive devices have been diffused, including 3,800 air bombs. Six million people in Ukraine deal with the mine danger today, from farmers to children who cannot go to their playground or go to the park because it could be mined. And it’s not only in the east, closer to the front line. It’s near Kyiv, our capital, which was under Russian occupation within the first weeks of the war. There is still a risk that a vast part of the territory is potentially dangerous for the people.
We have a very ambitious plan because if we applied the normal speed of demining, it would take us over 100 years. We don’t have 100 years. We want the people to come back to their homes and give them safety. So we are grateful for the partners for support. We still need that support. First of all, we need the support in equipment and training.
The other thing is innovation. Now, Ukraine is a huge innovation hub for many unmanned systems, including demining systems. From our government funding — but together with the top world companies and our universities plus the support from our allies — we are also trying to find and support innovative decisions, like using robots, using digital analysis and screening of the territory to be able to more efficiently and more quickly proceed with demining.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you.
Senator Boniface: Welcome back again. We deeply appreciate your availability, given how many hours there are in the day. I can’t imagine you get much sleep.
I also wanted to take a moment to compliment your parliamentarians. I was at the European Commission in June, and they work endlessly trying to meet and get support. They meet with different countries. It was a pleasure to meet them, but it was also heartwarming to see the reception they were getting at that function as well.
I want to go back to disinformation because this is an issue worldwide. It’s affecting elections in a number of places. Would you like to take an opportunity to give us more detail on your concerns and what other countries can do to assist Ukraine regarding Russian disinformation?
Ms. Kovaliv: As for Russian disinformation, from the experience of Ukraine, we have been feeling and observing their operations for many years. It did not start for us in 2022; there were operations trying to split the people in the country based on different cultural views. They failed.
If there were one specific tool to win on this field, I think we would be living in a much better world. But with that disinformation, we even see the evidence that Russia’s special disinformation efforts are trying to target particular soldiers in particular brigades on the front lines. For example, they are sending them messages that are aimed at decreasing their morale or calling them to surrender. So they could be blaming their commanders or the government and so on, so that people’s morale would decrease.
It’s constantly evolving. We are seeing it more and more in the public domain; investigative journalists are discovering the special operations. It’s also usually done with the support of Russian operatives and Russian secret services. It’s well funded.
Unfortunately, it does not have physical borders, so it’s spreading very quickly. It tries to decrease this unity, and we need to put together all the efforts on building awareness and education but also stand against this propaganda. We need to trace the funding because there is always some funding backing it. These are collective efforts.
Senator Boniface: Thank you very much.
In the last hour, we had the Canadian ambassador. I asked a question around equipment — what Canada’s pledge is and what it has delivered. You’re going into winter. Can you tell me where you see things at and your optimism or pessimism around their ability to deliver?
Ms. Kovaliv: We are grateful for all the support. As I mentioned, there are many cases where it has made a real change, and demining is a great example. When we started, Ukraine altogether had 12 demining machines. Canada donated another 12, and we simply doubled our capacity.
In terms of preparation for the winter, we really would appreciate it if this allocation of the funding — the decision that was announced — could come sooner because these are the actions under the pressing needs of preparing for the winter for yesterday, if not the past months.
Senator Boniface: Thank you.
Senator Al Zaibak: Thank you, Madam Ambassador, for being with us here again.
I want to switch to the humanitarian aspect of the war. Of course, the war on Ukraine has displaced millions of Ukrainians, both internally and as refugees across the world, including Canada. Could you give us a sense of how many Ukrainian refugees have made it to Canada and been welcomed by Canadians since the war started? Could you also describe the current humanitarian conditions and challenges that those refugees are facing in Canada and in other countries around the world?
Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you. Indeed, the human aspect of the war is very tragic. There are 7.5 million people who are internally displaced in Ukraine, plus 4.5 million Ukrainians living abroad. Mainly, those people who found a temporary shelter in different countries are living in Europe. I can’t tell you the correct number of Ukrainians who came to Canada under the temporary protection program CUAET because it’s your Department of Immigration that would know that number. We don’t have a report on that. But a lot of them are women with children whose husbands and fathers remain in Ukraine. Of course, in terms of family life, most of them have close relatives in Ukraine.
Overall, 70% of people in Ukraine feel the pain of the war in their close families, meaning that for 70% of people in Ukraine, there is in their family or among their close friends somebody who lost his or her life or somebody who was significantly wounded.
There are also two other big humanitarian problems. One is our prisoners of war. Unfortunately, no international organizations, including those that have mandates to monitor where and how they have been treated, have access to them. The horror of the pictures we have seen and the videos when we do the exchanges — and the people who are coming back are barely alive. This is the most heartbreaking and horrific. We just cannot imagine what they lived through. The witnesses we are getting — because there is proper documenting of those crimes because it’s purely the Russian breach of the Geneva Convention — there will be justice. That’s why when we are talking about a just peace, it’s part of the justice.
Second, there are the children and the aspect of Russian illegal deportation of Ukrainian children. We have 19,000 children who have been forcefully deported to Russia. That is another big humanitarian challenge for us.
Plus, we put a big focus today on another issue, which is a humanitarian issue for us — it’s the mental health and mental well-being of the whole nation. When you are living in wartime under constant attack, when your family members have been killed or significantly wounded, that all creates significant pressure and trauma.
One of the key priorities for us is also our veterans. We have all of our heroes, our armed forces and all forces of defence, who protect our country; at the end of the war, they will be coming back, and we need to provide them with mental health rehabilitation so that they and their families — and we are talking about millions of people — can continue their integration back into life.
Senator Kutcher: Thank you, ambassador, for being with us today. It is very appreciated.
I would like to focus in on disinformation, specifically on the film Russians at War. Senator Dasko and I have been engaged in addressing this piece of propaganda masquerading as art on the basis that paid lies do not equal free speech. RT, as we know, is banned in Canada, and because of that, Russia seeks alternative channels to push anti-Ukraine and pro-Russian narratives in Canada. This film is an incredible example of how Russia does that. To talk about Russians at war without mentioning the rape and murder of civilians or the starving, castration and execution of surrendered soldiers is quite a feat, but it seems to have been pulled off. Canada even apparently helped fund it with taxpayer dollars.
Ukraine knows Russian propaganda when they see it. Could you advise us on a couple of things? One, what can Canadians do? How can we help them differentiate what are necessary and critical discussions that are essential for democratic, civil engagement from promoting Russian propaganda, wittingly or unwittingly?
Second, how can the Government of Canada help counter this type of soft propaganda?
Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you. Indeed, we were very disappointed with the decision of TIFF to showcase this film, which we believe is a bold attempt to whitewash Russian war crimes and to present some good Russian soldiers. You need to understand that when you saw images of the biggest children’s hospital in Ukraine attacked by a missile, it was a so-called good Russian soldier who pushed the button for this missile to launch.
The horrors of Bucha, Irpin, Izium resulted in mass graves. Those were Russian soldiers. It’s not Russia; it’s Russian soldiers who committed that.
We were talking earlier that sexual violence is a big part of the Russian war machine. It’s not Russia; it’s Russian soldiers who make the decision to rape men and women. We are very grateful to Canada for supporting us in helping the people who have experienced these horrific crimes.
We were also appalled by the film because it does not show any of these war crimes, so it can’t be a documentary. Let’s be frank; what is independent journalism? This film is far away from this journalism.
You saw in Russia that even a small attempt at a protest in support of Ukraine results in years-long jail sentences for those people. And then this former RT employee spends seven months on the front lines with Russian soldiers without being approved? In my attempts to explain it to TIFF, we tried to build a rationale explaining that, first, they tried to hide on their website that the director was working for Russia Today. Why? Maybe feeling it’s not good? No, it’s not good.
We support freedom of speech. It is important. That’s why we opened the doors from the very first day to all journalists to come to Ukraine and have interviews with our leaders and with ordinary people on the streets. They were documenting. Most of the images you see were done by international journalists who came and witnessed everything. We are thankful for their job, but we cannot pretend that this kind of documentary is independent journalism. An independent journalist will never wear a soldier’s uniform because they should be independent. This so-called director did that, so it’s a clear manipulation. You need to understand that Russia is very sophisticated at it.
I’m probably not in a position to advise, but from our side, I think this is the lesson. Unfortunately, it’s spreading. The film that was created here is also now spreading around the world. We need to understand that the consequences are far bigger than the TIFF festival, unfortunately.
The Chair: Thank you, ambassador. Colleagues, we’ll go to the second round in just a moment, but I would like to ask the ambassador a question as well that is more on the regional, multilateral aspect.
With some colleagues from the Senate and the House of Commons, I attended the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly in Bucharest at the beginning of the summer. I had attended a previous one that we hosted in Vancouver. The OSCE, or the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, is, of course, a very durable organization, or has been in terms of supporting democratic development, trying to reduce tensions and observing elections. Its Parliamentary Assembly brings together parliamentarians from all of the membership, and, of course, Ukraine and the war is a centrepiece: everything from environment to gender-based violence, the things that you have described, ambassador.
But at the same time, the organization proper is being undermined by Russia and Belarus from within. Russia no longer participates in these assemblies, yet the organization itself has been around for a long time and has done useful work.
I don’t have a specific question on that, but do you have any comments you would like to offer in terms of the multilateral aspect, especially the regional one, as it pertains to the current situation?
Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you for that question. Indeed, many of the institutions that were created for keeping peace and creating rules — as we call it, the international rules-based order — were done as a post-Second World War mechanism to prevent and to protect peace, security and stability.
What happened with the Russian invasion of Ukraine was the breaching of the whole concept of this international law. The countries, whether they are big or small in territory, big economic powers or emerging economies or have strong military or not, these were the rules that protected and helped them to develop well-being for the people, providing them services, dealing with the environment and many of the priorities for the people.
What happened when Russia became a member of the Security Council, being a nuclear power, it made a very brutal attempt to redraw it all, showing that many of the decisions of the Security Council are blocked by Russia still having a seat there and a blocking vote. This is where we also have to think about what lessons need to be learned and what actions need to be taken, but that’s probably far beyond our bilateral relations.
The Chair: Thank you, ambassador. We’ll move to the second round. I have two senators, but if anyone else wants to ask a question, please let us know.
Senator Patterson: Thank you very much. I asked a question last time. It’s in terms of wounded warriors. Canada knows from our experiences in Afghanistan that when soldiers are wounded, what they often lose is a sense of purpose. Ukrainian soldiers are in the heat of a war. I know of an initiative that is taking wounded warriors to train in-country. We had a discussion previously. We need to continue with Operation UNIFIER, but we also need to think about how we can keep soldiers closer to the front line.
We have found out, through NGO funding, that wounded Ukrainian warriors are being trained to be trainers on the front lines. I’m just wondering what Canada can do to help support that initiative, because it will be part of your transition into peace time and victory.
Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you. As I mentioned, many of those who have been significantly wounded are the people who physically cannot come back to the front line, although they want to; the majority of them want to serve the purpose.
For us, as the government, to support veterans and to support their reintegration and having a purpose is one of the key priorities. We even have in our bilateral security agreement a special line on cooperation to help us with the reintegration of veterans.
There are a few things. One, we are working already with the private sector on providing the instruments for the employment, retraining and education. This is the first important thing.
The second is the rehabilitation centres for them. The most heartbreaking thing — I was in Ukraine at the end of August, visiting a hospital and seeing these young boys and girls without limbs. This is now, unfortunately, the reality of our country, so we need rehabilitation, both physical and psychological.
Barrier-free environment — that’s becoming for us a pressing issue in terms of how we will develop and rebuild our cities, villages, infrastructure. Now we have a huge number of people with disabilities because of the severe wounds from the war, so this is also the experience we are learning now from our partners: how to make life for them more accessible.
Particularly, there is one thing we would really appreciate and seek Canada’s support on: to help us build a system of psychological rehabilitation of our veterans. Indeed, there will be a big need for that which will be across the country because they will be coming back to their homes, to their communities, and we would really appreciate working together and sharing your experience and helping us train people.
As I’m saying it, you are helping us to train soldiers with Operation UNIFIER. That will be great to help us to train the people who will work as they will be coming back home.
The Chair: Thank you, ambassador.
Senator Ravalia: Your Excellency, just as a follow-up to Senator Patterson’s questions, in the face of morale issues, war fatigue and the constant threat of attack, is conscription of new recruits becoming an issue? Are you facing challenges in that regard?
Ms. Kovaliv: No. In May, our parliament amended legislation for mobilization. It was done, and now it’s done in a digital way. One of the things we have done is we put the requirements for all men from 18 to 60 just to register so that we get more information about people.
The thing with mobilization is that, first of all, Ukrainian tactics were never the same as Russian to bring as many people, untrained, to the battlefield. For us, there is a definite line for people who are mobilized. For them, they need to have proper training — and we are grateful to Canada and the partners for providing this training — plus they need to be equipped. Here we are seeing a problem because we can’t send the soldiers without them having armoured vehicles, without them having artillery and drones, without them having other types of weapons.
If we don’t have them, we don’t need so much to conscript, because unarmed soldiers are vulnerable. For us, human life is the most important and precious. That’s why more military support is something which makes our soldiers safer.
Senator Ravalia: Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator Kutcher: One of my favourite Winston Churchill quotes is, “If you’re going through hell, keep going.” But you need to hope. Is there anything that Canadians can do more of as this winter is coming to promote hope for Ukraine?
Ms. Kovaliv: Thank you for that support and hope. The morale in Ukraine, despite all the challenges, is high. Despite the sleepless nights and missile and drone attacks, people get up in the morning, go to grab a cup of coffee, go to the offices. The economy is recovering. While our economy dropped down by 30% back in 2022, we have the second year in a row when GDP is slowly recovering.
With the robust financial support and the loans that the Canadian government provided to our government, we are able to continue to finance hospitals to work, the most vulnerable people to receive support, teachers to go to work and schools to function. It is really important.
For next year, it is an important decision that G7 already made in their statement, taking $50 billion of the interest on Russian frozen assets to help us both with financial support and with military support. Implementation of this decision will be very important because this funding will serve to enable our government to continue to provide social support to our people. That is a lot of hope, and we can jointly do this. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you, ambassador. We’re at that moment where we will offer you a big thank you. On behalf of the committee, thank you for being with us today. As always, we appreciate your insights and, particularly, your candour. It is clearly a tragic and difficult situation in your homeland. I think I can speak for all of us here to say that we remain in great solidarity with Ukraine. Ambassador, thank you.
(The committee adjourned.)