THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Thursday, May 9, 2024
The Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry met with videoconference this day at 8:59 a.m. [ET] to examine and report on issues relating to agriculture and forestry generally; and, in camera, to examine and report on the status of soil health in Canada.
Senator Robert Black (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, before we begin, I’d like to remind all senators and others participating in the meeting of the following important preventative measures.
To prevent disruptive and potentially harmful audio feedback incidents during our meeting that could cause injuries, we remind all in-person participants to keep their earpieces away from the microphones at all times.
As indicated in the communiqué from the Speaker of the Senate on Monday, April 29, the following measures have been taken to help prevent audio feedback incidents.
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Thank you very much for your cooperation.
I’d like to begin by welcoming members of the committee, our witnesses and those watching this meeting on the web. My name is Rob Black, chair of the committee and a senator from Ontario.
Before we hear from our witness, I’d like to go around the room and have our senators introduce themselves.
Senator Simons: Hello, I’m Senator Paula Simons. I come from Alberta, and I come from Treaty 6 territory.
Senator Burey: Good morning and welcome. Sharon Burey, senator from Ontario.
Senator McNair: Good morning and welcome. I’m John McNair from New Brunswick.
Senator Robinson: Good morning. I’m Mary Robinson from Prince Edward Island.
Senator McBean: Good morning. Marnie McBean, Ontario.
Senator Oh: Good morning. Victor Oh, Ontario.
The Chair: Today, the committee is continuing its study on the topic of the growing issue of wildfires in Canada and the consequential effects that wildfires have on agriculture, forestry and the industries therein.
We welcome our witnesses. From the Canadian Red Cross, we have Amy Avis, General Counsel; from the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs, Chief Ken McMullen, President and a fire chief in Red Deer, Alberta, and Tina Saryeddine, Executive Director; from the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Center, Lisa Walker, Director, Resiliency and Partnerships.
Each organization will have five minutes for presentations. I’ll signal that your time is running out by raising one hand at the one-minute-left mark, and when both hands are up, it’s time to think about wrapping up quickly.
With that, the floor is yours, Ms. Avis.
Amy Avis, General Counsel, Canadian Red Cross: Thank you so much.
Before I begin, I’d like to acknowledge that I live and work in the unceded Anishinaabe Algonquin territory.
My name is Amy Avis. I was formerly the general counsel. I hope you won’t hold my law degree against me, as I am sure I am in good company in this room. I’m now the chief of humanitarian services, and I lead our domestic and international response team. I’ll be intervening with that in mind today.
I’d like to thank you for the opportunity to talk about this. This is an issue that’s near and dear to all of our hearts, as our teams are ready for response season. We’re in Emergency Preparedness Week, or EP Week, so the culture of preparedness is really important today, and it’s very timely that we’re having the dialogue today.
I’d like to make three interventions. I would like to speak about the role of the Canadian Red Cross; the impact of wildfires in Canada; and the current pain points and recommendations that are in scope for this committee.
In terms of the role of the Canadian Red Cross, we’re really proud of the work we’ve done in partnership with the Government of Canada, especially over the last five years. With the funding for the Humanitarian Workforce through Public Safety, we’ve deployed almost 10,000 Canadians in response to 180 requests from provincial, territorial and federal authorities and supported emergency operations for nine federal departments. Since 2010, we’ve responded to 34,000 disasters — small, medium and large scale and coast to coast to coast — and we’ve supported 1.6 million Canadians that have been affected and people living in Canada. It is with this in mind that we make our interventions today.
We support risk reduction, and we support recovery until return to home. So the Canadian Red Cross doesn’t only intervene in the case of relief and catastrophic loss, we also accompany Canadians right up until they return to home. I use “return to home” very carefully, because in some cases and increasingly in Canada, that means not rebuilding your house. It means finding a sustainable living structure — sometimes a trailer — but increasingly, it doesn’t necessarily mean returning to the same home you had before an event.
We also intervene at the individual, community and household level. So we provide assistance directly to individuals but also to communities that are affected.
I’m going to briefly get into the impacts of wildfires and close on recommendations.
In terms of the impact of wildfires, we were on the ground supporting in eight provinces and territories last year. The word “unprecedented” gets used a lot to describe each year of wildfire season. I think it absolutely was, but it’s really important to signify that for us, it was a warning shot. Relative to the amount of destruction and hectares burnt, there was not the same level of household damage that we saw in other years. We didn’t see a catastrophic loss event like Fort McMurray where a whole urban centre had to evacuate and suffered extended losses. We didn’t see the B.C. 2017-18 wildfire season where people were evacuated in waves of orders and alerts. So in many ways, we’re looking forward to the forecast of this event season, and our teams — my colleagues here and our teams that are still responding to last year’s events — feel the drum beat of the season coming upon us. Our days are consumed with pre‑positioning stocks and supplies, last-minute exercises and just-in-time training to make sure that we’re ready to be there for Canadians in need.
One metric that’s really important — before I get into the recommendations — is the degree to which there’s actually not a metric to understand the impact of wildfires. We talk about hectares burnt and evacuations, but we don’t talk about how long people are evacuated and how many times they’re evacuated. We don’t talk about the difference between two households in a community being affected versus a whole community. Not understanding how that occurs substantially changes the way in which people feel the event, how long it takes them to recover, how much they pay out of pocket and how response agencies have to support.
I also want to highlight the intersectionality of risk and the degree to which wildfires are increasingly crossing borders and having those affected cross borders and are compounding on year-over-year events. The city of Lytton, which has not been rebuilt, is a case study example of a community that has experienced all the hardships that one could possibly experience, and the fires almost impacted it again last year.
In closing, I wanted to highlight that surge personnel is so critical to response efficacy. We also want to highlight the need for continued support for civilian response capacities, including the Humanitarian Workforce. There also needs to be complementary disaster-loss programming, including aquaculture, which needs to be reformed. My last point is about the need for increased coordination, collaboration and response to ensure efficacy and efficiency.
With that, I will close. Thank you so much. I apologize.
The Chair: No apology necessary.
Ken McMullen, President, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs: Good morning and thank you again. It’s a real pleasure to be with you all. Good morning to our chair, senators and fellow guests. The Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs would like to thank you for inviting us to give our testimony to your study on the growing issues of wildfires in Canada and the consequential effects they have on forestry and our agricultural industries.
We are honoured to be with you today on the unceded and unsurrendered territories of the Anishinaabe people.
Today, I will focus on two challenges related to agriculture and forestry and the impacts of wildfire: coordination and modernization. I will recommend that Canada needs a Canadian coordinating office for fire and emergency like our colleagues in the United States, the United Kingdom, Japan, Australia and New Zealand have to coordinate people and policy in a modernized context. Second, I will recommend that Canada needs a joint emergency preparedness program to modernize our cache of emergency preparedness equipment.
The Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs represents the country’s 3,200 fire departments through fire chiefs and a national advisory council of our provincial, territorial and relevant national affiliate organizations. Within our 3,200 fire departments are approximately 126,000 firefighters in this country, of which 70% are volunteer.
Fire chiefs are also often the designated local emergency management coordinator or the authority having jurisdiction in the state of an emergency. More than 90% of fire departments are involved in wildland response, but our members are not wildland firefighters. The latter are under our provincial jurisdiction and often coordinated by our friends at the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre, known as CIFFC.
What is the difference? Local fire departments get involved when structures, people and communities are at risk. Wildland agencies are our forest fire experts. Wildfires, however, continue to reach the wildland urban interface, and we are now at the stage of needing to coordinate this more readily.
The intersection of agriculture and wildfire also needs to be coordinated with local fire departments. Over the last 12 months, 50 different agricultural fires have made media stories across this country, and you likely saw those on front pages of many papers across this country. Do our farm and agricultural leaders have a national source of advice and implementation on how modern‑day choices impact fire and life safety issues?
Today, I would suggest we have a gold star FireSmart program that can assist farms in mitigating the effects of wildfire. However, we can’t put all of that burden on the FireSmart program. Fire prevention and mitigation are multi-faceted. Some of our efforts to be environmentally friendly have caused us to select materials and plant trees in areas where they’re now a source of combustion. The housing crisis has pushed homes into forested and agricultural communities differently than they have in the past. Our effort to get more people into affordable homes is and may cause some provinces to unknowingly toss out fire and life safety fundamentals, like secondary exits, in favour of cost savings and space, an initiative akin to suggesting health care providers can be more efficient if they don’t wash their hands or change their gloves. It has also caused us to reach for materials that we think are environmentally friendly but haven’t been fully considered in the full fire context.
Allow me to share an example. If we put an electric vehicle in a multi-unit home with a secondary suite and no secondary exit, in a rural community, with a water shortage, during a heat wave, after the review of an explosives regulation just made it easier for children to handle sparklers, and you’ll have, unfortunately, the making of a complete disaster.
Whose fault is this? It’s no one’s fault. Fire is friendly. It shows up for everyone, everywhere in new and unexpected ways. But what can we do about it? Introduce national coordination capacity so federal policy-makers can make the right advice, right from the start.
Finally, more than 50% of fire departments in this country are deferring equipment purchases due to budget constraints beyond local municipalities. The reintroduction of a Joint Emergency Preparedness Program could help to address this, particularly in rural Canada.
In closing, I propose to you that we need to modernize and coordinate to address wildfire impacts on forestry and agriculture. We recommend a national coordinating office of fire and emergency, and the return of the Joint Emergency Preparedness Program.
Finally, I would like to take this opportunity to thank all senators, who have been such great supporters of the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs for the national firefighter cancer framework as well as the doubling of the volunteer firefighter tax credit. Your support of the fire sector and for the safety of Canadians is so greatly appreciated, and for that we say thank you.
The Chair: Thank you, chief. Moving on to Ms. Walker; you have the floor.
Lisa Walker, Director, Resiliency and Partnerships, Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre: I’m Lisa Walker, and I live in the Yukon on the traditional territory of the Carcross/Tagish First Nation. I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak today on behalf of the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre about the important and pressing issue of wildland fires. Gathering today to engage in open and informed discussion around this topic is essential for developing effective strategies to mitigate the negative impacts of wildland fires and build resilience in the face of future challenges.
As I mentioned, I’m here on behalf of Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre, or CIFFC, a not-for-profit corporation owned and operated by the federal, provincial and territorial governments. CIFFC’s mandate is to support its member agencies in effective wildland fire management, response, prevention, mitigation and other services in Canada. During times of heightened fire activity, CIFFC is responsible for coordinating resource sharing between the provinces and territories, and with international partners. These resources include personnel, equipment and aircraft. In seasons like the one we experienced last year, this is no small feat.
As you know, the 2023 wildland fire season was the worst fire season on record in Canada, with fires raging across the country, often simultaneously, consuming lands, forests, threatening homes, displacing communities and blanketing the skies with smoke in cities far beyond our own borders. The impacts of the 7,000 fires and 16.5 million hectares burned were felt far and wide.
In the face of this unprecedented situation, CIFFC had to contend with many challenges. Extreme weather and drought conditions in multiple jurisdictions exacerbated the demand for resources. During this time, CIFFC was able to mobilize approximately 5,500 resources from 12 countries to fill in where domestic resources had been exhausted. Securing these resources, however, proved to be difficult, as the availability of international resources was not always certain.
We also had to grapple with a shortage of management expertise in wildland fire, which adds complexity to resource sharing, in addition to an aging fleet of aircraft across the country, which presents another hurdle, with no immediate solution in sight.
Though we knew that our efforts must go beyond the firefighting front lines, this was made evident during the 2023 season. This is why CIFFC is deeply committed to providing tools to our federal, provincial and territorial partners to support the implementation of prevention and mitigation activities in their jurisdictions through FireSmart Canada programs. This national program is aimed at empowering communities to take proactive steps to reduce their vulnerability to wildland fires. FireSmart Canada is an important tool supporting Canadians in adapting to and living with wildland fire. We all have a part to play when it comes to preventing wildland fire and reducing risk, and FireSmart Canada programs are designed with that in mind.
As we look ahead, it’s clear that the threat of wildland fire remains a constant challenge. Climate change, land use patterns and other factors continue to exacerbate wildland fire risks, underscoring the need for continued collaboration and innovation in wildland fire management. CIFFC remains steadfast in its commitment to addressing these challenges head on, working hand in hand with our partners to build a more resilient Canada, where the impacts of wildfires are minimized and communities thrive in the face of adversity. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Walker. Thanks very much to our witnesses. We’ll proceed now with questions. We’ll start off with Senator Simons, our deputy chair.
Senator Simons: Thank you very much to all of our witnesses, not just for being here today but for everything you’ve done to protect Canadians and support Canadians who are going through dislocation from wildfire in the last few years. I’m grateful to say that I’m from Alberta, and although we were expecting a terrible fire season this year because of the mild, dry winter, we’ve had a lot of rain and snow recently, and I’m hopeful that at least fire season is getting off to a much slower start this year, and I’m hoping that is good news.
I’m going to start with you, Ms. Walker. Obviously, your organization is absolutely the pivotal keystone agency in this, but it doesn’t seem like it has the resources that it needs or perhaps the power that it needs. So maybe it’s not fair to ask you, but what would a model agency look like for you? Then I want to ask Chief McMullen and Ms. Avis what it would look like for them.
Ms. Walker: Thank you, senator, for your question. I believe there would never be enough resources to protect everyone every time, but our resources and our power are given to us by the wildland fire agencies across the country, and we work on their behalf. They are the ones that hold the jurisdiction, the expertise and the tools. Our job as a coordinating agency is to support them and share those resources across the country when one jurisdiction needs them over another.
We have been in operation for 40 years, which is a long time. I believe that model has been very successful in Canada and internationally. We have six existing agreements with international partners, and as I mentioned in my statement, we had 12 countries here in Canada last year. We are growing and expanding as we can and as we need to when the seasons present themselves, but it’s obviously a challenge that is facing all jurisdictions across the country at different times and in different ways. Our prevention and mitigation program, through FireSmart Canada, is trying to be more proactive and supporting jurisdictions before the wildfires come and before people are impacted in their communities.
Senator Simons: You are the coordinating agency.
Ms. Walker: Yes.
Senator Simons: Because many of these things are in provincial jurisdiction or even county jurisdiction, you’re not the boss of everybody.
Ms. Walker: They, as the wildland fire agencies, are our bosses. They are the “board of directors” of CIFFC. Some of the wildland fire agencies are emergency measures organizations, and they are the “board of directors” of CIFFC.
Senator Simons: Then I guess my question for Chief McMullen and Ms. Avis is this: Is that the model we still need to cope with — I don’t want to say the “deluge” of fires; that’s the wrong metaphor. However, as climate change makes fire season more and more acute, is this still a functional model, or do we need something that goes beyond coordination?
Mr. McMullen: Thank you so much for the question, senator.
The Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs has been on the record for about a dozen years suggesting the coordination of a national fire administration. Earlier this morning, I returned from Washington where we attended the first inaugural World Fire Congress where 54 countries attended the conference. We are one of the few like-sized countries without the position of a national fire administration.
When we talk about coordination and the perspective of the provincial-territorial boundaries and jurisdictions, the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs is made up not only of an elected board, but we have representations of the chiefs organizations of all provinces, territories and allied groups. We believe this coordination centre — to answer your question — plays a pivotal role in the coordination efforts that have been talked about by Ms. Walker.
Ms. Avis: I think the coordination of response is really critical, along with recognizing that is sometimes supplies and materials; sometimes that’s people and agencies. There are multiple levels we have to look at.
Senator Simons: Okay, good. I will go on a second round, please.
The Chair: There may or may not be a second round, depending upon timing.
Senator Oh: Thank you, witnesses. Good morning.
My question will probably touch a little bit on the other senators’ questions. I’m talking about global warming, climate change and extreme weather. Recent polls from Abacus Data suggested three in four Canadians are in favour of supporting the creation of a new non-military, national wildfire-fighting forum. The idea was proposed in 2023 by several wildfire experts.
So with this, the force could be mobile, not just within Canada, but even outside of Canada to help. What do you think of the idea?
Mr. McMullen: Thank you so much. I appreciate the question.
I will remind senators that, currently in this country, we have 126,000 firefighters. Of those, 70,000 or 80,000 are volunteers. We support the initiative of individuals being available to support communities.
Our challenge is that we believe they already exist, and we’re not sure how many more individuals we’re going to have who aren’t already being utilized within a response system in its entirety. We’ve been at the table, and part of the conversations on this topic — of the Humanitarian Workforce — and I’ll repeat that we support it. We just want to ensure they’re trained appropriately, and have the skills and abilities in order to perform their tasks safely. The lens we’re bringing to the conversation is ensuring it’s done safely and appropriately to ensure the safety, not only of the responders, but their ability to protect Canadians as well.
Senator Oh: What about in the U.S. or European countries? Do they have such a force created?
Mr. McMullen: In other parts of the world, they do utilize different systems than we have in Canada. Speaking at the World Fire Congress, some countries in Europe run their entire country solely on a volunteer system, which is all-encompassing. They do search and rescue as well as fire response on a similar appetite as what you’re referring to in this national Humanitarian Workforce.
Ms. Avis: It’s a great point, because we see a lot of these tools as not being mutually exclusive but additive, and we come from different perspectives. The Canadian Red Cross judges the success of these programs by the Canadians who are affected. So if the DFAA and Humanitarian Workforce are successful, that is judged at the household level in response to when they return to their house and their house is destroyed, if we’re guarding against loss of life.
In addition to search tools and the national Humanitarian Workforce, we believe there needs to be a modernization of disaster-loss programming and another look at how insurance is covering fires in Canada. We would add that disaster-loss programming angle in addition to a surge workforce.
Ms. Walker: In addition to the coordination and resource-sharing services that CIFFC provide, we also create and share national exchange and training standards. This means that the wildland firefighters across the country can be shared through any province and territory, as well as internationally. This is how the model approaches a national workforce, in that if Prince Edward Island needs firefighters and Yukon does not need them at the time, they can be deployed there and work there under the safety and training standards that everyone shares across the country.
This also allows each jurisdiction to hire and maintain their own workforces to do all kinds of other wildland fire- and forestry-related activities. It’s a model that has worked for a very long time, but resource shortages are certainly felt by wildland fire and many industries across the country right now.
Senator Oh: Chief, I have one more question for you. Do we have sufficient equipment — water bombers and helicopters — for fire rescues?
Mr. McMullen: I don’t want to speak out of turn. The Canadian fire services of the municipal sides that we represent don’t oversee the assets of helicopters and water bombers; that is done by our colleagues in wildfires. I would defer to them to answer that question, if I could, senator.
Ms. Walker: There are resource shortages in aviation in general, and not only is it part of an aging fleet of aircraft, but it’s personnel shortages in pilots and maintenance engineers. That’s not singled out to wildland fire; that’s across the aviation industry.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator Jaffer: Thank you very much. I’m sorry I was late.
I come from B.C., and as a young lawyer, I used to work around the Lytton area. In the best of times — and even now — it’s very difficult to get to Lytton or areas like that. I’m not just trying to single out Lytton, but you mentioned it, Ms. Avis. Those are not easy areas to go into, and I don’t think there are many fire stations.
I have one naive question. If we were lobbying for a national coordination or if we were going to recommend, we would go with emergency preparedness here?
Mr. McMullen: If I may, I would like our executive director to answer that question.
Tina Saryeddine, Executive Director, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs: Thank you, Chief McMullen, and thank you, senator, for the question.
Yes, we have proposed a national fire administration —a Canadian coordinating office to the Minister of Emergency Preparedness. I do think that is a prime location for it. We are talking about the intersectionality of so many different issues, like access, like wildfire, like structural fire and all emergencies being local. I think you’re quite right; it is an emergency preparedness issue. Thank you.
Senator Jaffer: It is emergency preparedness.
When one thinks about firefighters, you think about forests and places far away. I’m coming from B.C. Last year, we had wildfires right next to our door because they came quite far and, of course, the smell, but we won’t go into that. So your job is quite complicated. It’s not just wildfires; it’s not just big trees or forest; it’s all over. Wildfires affect people too, don’t get me wrong, but it affects all over. Your job is very diverse.
Ms. Saryeddine, I’m sure you have separate fire chiefs, so how do you deal with that? Is it different forces or how do you deal with that?
Ms. Saryeddine: Thank you for the question. When we did the Great Canadian Fire Census, we learned that fire departments conduct between 10 and 16 different hazard services. The fire sector is by nature creative and innovative, but we have been consistently saying — and you said it in your question — that we have many issues, given the complexity of the environment that we now live in, that need to be coordinated; and this coordination between the national federal level and policy issues of interest nationally and what local fire departments are doing needs to be coordinated through a Canadian coordinating office, similar to CIFFC but also, like you say, beyond wildfire.
That’s very much the nature of our proposal. If you’re interested, we would be happy to share with you and the committee our report that we presented during Government Relations Week on a national fire administration, like Chief McMullen said, that are present in other countries.
Senator Jaffer: May I please ask you to send it our clerk and then she’ll send it to us.
Ms. Saryeddine: Absolutely, yes.
Senator Jaffer: Chief, given the high incidence of wildfires in British Columbia, which obstacles are faced by fire departments in terms of the wildfire management and response? You said those. Don’t repeat those, but are there others? You talked about collaboration already. I don’t want you to repeat that, but how would that look? We can all say collaboration and a national organization, but I can’t visualize that. Is it someone who would direct the whole firefighting force across the country? What does it look like?
Mr. McMullen: Thank you, senator. I think we can look to a couple of examples. First, two persons to my left, the CIFFC model does something very similar.
When Ms. Walker talked about the coordination of resources from other countries, internally in Canada as well as the resources going back and forth, the municipal fire service doesn’t have those same agreements. We don’t have the same capabilities, other than — I would say — handshake agreements, personal relationships between provinces and territories, to ensure that resources are shared.
What we saw in the fire season of 2023 was just the lack of availability throughout the entire country, and we were bringing in resources, but the resources that we were bringing in were wildland firefighters. We weren’t bringing in structural firefighters. What we were referring to is that wildland-urban interface, the application where the fire is leaving the forested area and impacting structures and people and communities.
The coordination centre that we’re referring to would expedite those conversations at the highest level to ensure that resources, assets and equipment are utilized most appropriately in the event of these large-scale events in Canada, similar again to CIFFC. I would remind you that other countries — the United States, Japan, Australia, New Zealand — have national fire coordination centres, and we believe that we are absent at that table right now.
Senator Jaffer: Thank you.
Senator Burey: Thank you so much for all the hard work that you do and for educating us senators. I wanted again to hone into that same issue that you mentioned, Chief McMullen and Ms. Walker — the coordinating issue — because I think that’s getting to the root of being prepared. We don’t want to go through another pandemic sort of situation.
We have sort of been skirting around it. What are the actual barriers to creating this national coordinating centre? You’ve recommended it, but obviously there are barriers to its creation. Give us your take on it.
Ms. Saryeddine: Thank you, senator, for the question. It’s a great question. We’re not sure. We welcome advice on this. This is not an expensive measure. It’s a measure that can be started quickly. Many countries around the world have done this and have had to adjust it many times. No one has the perfect model, but the earlier we start, the sooner we learn.
What we’re proposing at a minimum is that as we begin to introduce new national policy priorities, such as housing, electrification of vehicles, et cetera, there at least be consideration of how there is intersection between the current realities and the policies that we’re introducing. So one item is at the policy level. The political will has to be there both on the part of the sector — we have to be at the table and be willing to work collaboratively — and there has to be an echo from the national and federal level.
I think there are some barriers around jurisdictional fears. No one wants to step in the wrong place. We can be very clear that there are areas where it is appropriate for local fire departments and the federal government to be having a conversation. It’s not a jurisdictional issue. It’s a substantive issue. So those are some of my thoughts. Thank you.
Mr. McMullen: I will allow my colleague, and if there is time, I can add.
Ms. Walker: It might be helpful to describe that CIFFC’s board of directors is made up of the 13 provinces and territories and the federal government, because Parks Canada has a wildland firefighting force as well.
Under that structure we have mutual aid resource sharing agreements, which are established agreements with those partners and the international groups for which the details of that resource sharing is laid out. The policies and structures that guide CIFFC ensure that we know what we’re getting when we exchange the resources, and those policies and structures obviously take time and practice to get right. So the model works very well right now.
If I think about what barriers might be to growth, a few years ago when CIFFC expanded its mandate to take on prevention and mitigation, it is a brand new program and requires strategic thinking, policy development and creating partnerships across the country with my colleagues that we have at the table today.
So creating a new program and a structure I think has the barriers of time and policy and strategic thinking and getting a whole-of-society approach together to think about who might participate and how that work might be done by such a diverse group across the country. But we do have a model that works. It has worked for the past 40 years. It’s growing every year. Like I mentioned, having 12 countries working in Canada in wildland fire this year was certainly a difference from years past, so growth is possible.
Ms. Avis: I think the challenge with coordination is we’re talking between wildland and infrastructure, and then we have pandemics, floods, hurricanes, response to the hazard, response with response agencies, disaster loss. It’s coordination of all these different elements. There are multiple layers, and at each layer I think the concern we’re expressing is we’re falling down a bit.
The Chair: Ms. Walker, you said 40 years. It sounded like four the last time you said it.
Ms. Walker: Yes, 40.
Senator McNair: As my colleagues have all said, thank you for being here today, and thank you for the work you’ve done last year and are doing this year to deal with forest fires and wildfires.
My question is to Chief McMullen, and it’s around the volunteer firefighter statistics: the 70% of the 126,000. I know your association did a 2023 Great Canadian Fire Census, and my understanding is that the number of firefighters declined from 2022 to 2023. I’m curious to know what you think of that trend. Is it among permanent firefighters, volunteer firefighters or both? I presume it probably is both.
I know the goal in your report about mapping the future is to improve sustainability of the volunteer model by 2025. We don’t have a lot of time. I also know you’ve got a communications strategy around the “Why I Answer the Call” campaign, but I’m curious to know, is it enough, and are there other strategies being implemented?
Mr. McMullen: Thank you very much, and thank you for reading the reports.
It is alarming. As I have said, it’s not often that the fire chiefs sound the alarm, but we are in that exact situation right now doing that.
Since 2016, we’ve seen a reduction of about 30,000 firefighters across this country, all composite, career and volunteers. We are seeing a small decline in our career full‑time sectors. It is becoming more challenging to recruit individuals into the profession. We are, however, seeing a greater decline within our volunteer and composite components.
I will pause momently to reflect and again state our appreciation for the doubling of the volunteer firefighter tax credit. It is one way to give appreciation back to the men and women who serve this country voluntarily.
We have always known that firefighting is an inherently dangerous profession, career opportunity or volunteer opportunity. We are learning more today about the risks very much directly related to cancers for firefighters and, equally as important, the impacts on mental health of first responders.
I have said many times that the volunteer fire sector in this country works most of the time. What it was not designed to handle are things like the wildfire season of 2023. When we asked men and women to leave their other responsibilities as homeowners, spouses or store owners, not for a day at a time but for weeks or months at a time — we asked individuals to be away for 40 or 50 days continuously — and when they came back, there were individuals who hung up their helmet and quite simply said, “I cannot do that again for my community.”
In closing, I will say that we have lost many, but we are still recruiting. We think that the net difference between what we’ve lost and gained is about 1,000 individuals that this country still needs. The challenge, I will remind you, is that in that loss of the 29,000 is a significant number of years of experience. That is just not replaceable, in fairness.
We have some work to do. The tax credit is one way to show our appreciation — it is an acknowledgement of what those firefighters do on behalf of volunteering and career composite departments — but we have some more work to do, senator.
Senator McNair: Thank you for that.
I might as well focus on something you said at the beginning. You mentioned that you want to see the return of the Joint Emergency Preparedness Program. Can you elaborate as to why it disappeared — I assume it was funding — and why it’s so critical from your perspective?
Ms. Saryeddine: Thank you, senator, for the question. This program was sunset in 2013. The written word as to why is because the need was met. Our suggestion is that the need has reappeared. It’s time to bring it back in a modernized format. Thank you.
Senator McNair: Thank you.
Senator McBean: It’s not unusual that something comes up and all the senators kind of roll in and go to the same part of the bone. I was taking notes, Chief McMullen, and your recommendations sounded really solid — things like creating a national coordination effort. Then, I listened to Ms. Walker, and I thought — and I’m not suggesting we change CIFFC’s name, but what if it were called the Canadian Coordination Fire Centre?
Am I missing something? It sounds like what you’re asking for, you deliver. Then you say the chiefs have been asking for it for 12 years, and you say that you’ve been here for 40. I even heard you say that you kind of are the national coordinator.
Do you agree that there needs to be a creation of a national coordinating effort, or is CIFFC that thing and you’re just the biggest secret in the room?
Ms. Walker: It’s a great question.
CIFFC is a wildland firefighting coordination agency, and our leadership comes from the provinces’, territories’ and the federal government’s wildland fire agencies. We don’t have structural fire. We don’t have other types of emergency response expertise, personnel or leadership. We are a focused agency.
I believe that focus has given us strength and longevity.
I don’t suggest that it is never something to consider as a model to emulate or changes that might occur in the future as Canada grows and changes, and our board of directors or the agencies decide. However, right now, we have a very specific role and some guidance from those agencies that we fulfill.
Senator McBean: Do you think if a national coordination effort came in that it would get in your lane a bit, or do you think it should be a branch — should you grow to include this? I hear you saying that 90% or so of your groups are dealing more and more with wildland fire issues. Urban is growing out a little bit, because unfortunately, forests don’t grow in cities. Are you aware of CIFFC? Do you guys coordinate with CIFFC?
Mr. McMullen: Very much.
Senator McBean: Okay, I’m just checking to make sure there is communication here before we create another layer. So the “onion” is mostly there.
Mr. McMullen: I think we’re in the grocery store. We’re looking at the same things.
It’s a wonderful question. The reality is that what we’re referring to right now is a very successful model for one component of fire and emergency response in this country. It does work well for the wildfire component.
Wildfire is one component of the fire and emergency response in Canada. The coordination that we’re referring to when we’re talking about — and I’m repeating the concept of lithium-ion batteries in Canada, the FireSmart program, affordable homes, secondary suites — all of those aspects, currently, would not fall under the scope of CIFFC. So I think it is a great model to look at how to coordinate and how to work different resources throughout the country, but I would suggest it’s not the model for what we’re suggesting, which is all-encompassing emergency services across the country.
Senator McBean: Does CIFFC end up coordinating with the Canadian Red Cross? Is that one of the resources that you pull in and are also coordinating? I’m trying to connect all the dots.
Ms. Walker: We recently created a FireSmart Canada advisory committee to which both of these groups are participants. That’s leading us to a whole-of-society approach to prevention and mitigation; what can we all do to prepare and be ready for wildland fires that are inevitable in our country?
Senator McBean: I have a last question in this area. Do more fires go from wildfire to urban or from urban to wildfire?
Mr. McMullen: I would say they go more from wildfire into urban.
Senator McBean: So it’s your area that goes this way, okay.
The Chair: One more question, and then we will move to the second round. Ask very short questions, because we do have a time limit here.
Senator Robinson: Thank you very much. Ms. Avis, I wanted to say I really appreciated that you heard the drum beating. We do too. It’s really been a conversation around this table.
I live in rural Canada, and I have to say that when I heard you say that 70% of your firefighters in Canada are volunteer, I broke it down to 7 in 10. So for every 10 firefighters, 7 are volunteer. I have quite often been in a coffee shop or at a meeting in church — wherever — where the beeper goes off for the person next to me. They’re getting a call, and it’s all emergency response — not just fire. So your comment about PTSD — you didn’t say PTSD directly, but mental health and cancers — is certainly real.
I wanted to build on Senator McNair’s questions about the decline we’re seeing in volunteer firefighters in particular. Were you both in Washington? No. Okay. You referenced that there are some countries that rely solely on volunteer firefighters, and I’m wondering what kind of incentives and rewards are there. Because a $3,000 tax credit doubled to $6,000 isn’t much, especially when you consider people leaving for great periods of time, the disruption to their lives and the consequence they face for taking it on. Did you see any other incentives that Canada could be considering to help you boost your volunteer numbers?
Mr. McMullen: Thank you. That’s a wonderful question. I would argue that those countries that are giving zero remuneration would be our very remote, small and — dare I say — Third World countries. I would say that our comparators like the United Kingdom, Finland and Sweden are very similar to the United States and Canada where there is a portion of remunerations.
One topic that was discussed on this very notion was whether or not there would be a business owner incentive to allow their employees to be able to respond to those events as you had indicated.
I think what we’re seeing in this decline as part of our whole-of-society is the number of vacancies in employment available across this country. What I mean is that these businesses may have had two or three individuals working in their store, and now they might have only two individuals or even only one. When that individual is responding to an event in your community, the business is now turning the store sign to closed as opposed to open. Therefore, there is a whole impact to the volunteer system within this country, and we need to continue to look at initiatives. Volunteer tax credit was a very good start. In fact, it was not what we asked for. We asked for a $10,000 increase. So we have some work to do. We will continue to do that.
The other incentives we have considered would be things like looking at businesses to offer incentives and continue to support our volunteers in this country.
Senator Robinson: My family is an employer in our community, and we certainly do have volunteer firefighters within our employ. When they get a call, they go, and we have no expectation of them to be at work if they’re needed for community service in that regard.
Are you suggesting that — I don’t want to use the word burden, but I’ll use it because it’s what’s in my head — the burden of this be borne by businesses solely or that government look to offer some incentive to businesses who facilitate volunteers responding to that call?
Mr. McMullen: I’m so glad you followed up so it gives me a chance to reply. I’m not suggesting the answer at all. I’m suggesting that a topic discussed in other countries to do with attracting volunteers looked at opportunities to have some sort of incentive from the employer in order to benefit from that. I couldn’t say today what that looks like as to whether it is a government incentive versus a business or municipality incentive. I do believe there is merit in it. I do believe there are opportunities for us to look at options similar to that, but I couldn’t say much more as far as details.
Senator Robinson: Thank you.
Senator Simons: We will have Indigenous witnesses before us later, but I don’t think any of you have spoken yet to the unique challenges of helping Indigenous communities in times of fire crisis. I wanted to ask Ms. Walker to what extent your coordinating agency works with First Nations.
Ms. Avis, some of the First Nations who have been most affected by wildfire are the ones who are furthest away from transportation networks and are the hardest to get help to. I wonder if you could talk about what some of those challenges are.
Ms. Walker: I have two items I can speak to. The first is that the FireSmart Canada Advisory Committee does have a couple of First Nations organizations sitting on it. As well, I know that some provinces and territories include First Nations wildland firefighters both as separate agencies or as included in the provincial or territorial response. We do have many First Nations wildland firefighters across the country, and we are including them in our highest level of governance structures in FireSmart Canada.
Ms. Avis: I think it’s anticipated that 42% of evacuations occur in Indigenous communities across Canada. They are front line on the face of impacts. I certainly wouldn’t dare to speak for those communities, but I do think that from a response agency like the Canadian Red Cross, we see a lot of anticipatory evacuations for aging populations. We see the complexities of getting single-engine aircraft into communities to do withdrawals. We see communities that are out for a year and a half before they return to home. We’re still supporting populations from last year.
I would just say that I think the testimonies you will hear will be so important to fully understand the scope of the issue.
Senator Simons: Chief McMullen, what needs to be done to make sure that First Nations communities have the training and capacity to do their own firefighting?
Mr. McMullen: Indigenous fire services representatives sit on the National Advisory Council of the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs. Therefore, we fully engage and participate with our colleagues in First Nations. I think that first and foremost, they have some tremendous traditions and techniques they already utilize. In fact, they are teaching us the more appropriate use of fire in these applications.
Senator Simons: For controlled burns and that kind of thing.
Mr. McMullen: Correct. They have been doing it for centuries, and we are learning from them in that area.
I would be remiss if I did not indicate that there are struggles in First Nations communities from a fire safety and training perspective. I may be so bold as to say there are times they fall through the cracks just within the jurisdictional relationships they may or may not have. We will continue to work. I will support the advocacy of firefighting training throughout Canada, and we will be sure to continue to advocate on behalf of our First Nations communities.
Senator Simons: Thank you very much. Thank you again to all of you.
Senator McBean: I think Senator Robinson started a good discussion on staffing. Ms. Walker, I heard you say that your board of directors was the province’s, and then you mentioned that Parks Canada had their own fire department. Are they also part of —
Ms. Walker: Yes.
Senator McBean: Okay. My understanding is that the provinces hire the firefighters. Is there any way the federal government can step in to support that beyond what I imagine is the Parks Canada firefighting department? I was even thinking of all the knowledge you said you lost. Is there some program the federal government can have to hire a knowledge transfer in there? What are your thoughts on the federal government helping with the process of hiring firefighters?
Mr. McMullen: I’ll start. Perhaps it’s a clarification, but the municipalities are in charge of all of the municipal firefighters. There is no involvement from the federal government for towns, villages and communities throughout Canada other than the work coordinated through the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre, or CIFFC, for our wildland firefighters. So there is that differentiation to begin with. It is solely the responsibility of each jurisdiction to ensure they have the coverage for firefighting.
There are conversations around whether or not they are paid positions through the federal government. I don’t know enough about this concept. I think when we’re talking about the humanitarian workforce, it is still at that voluntary perspective and not a paid perspective.
If I have a moment, perhaps our executive director might support that.
Ms. Saryeddine: Absolutely. Thank you for the question.
The question of clarification of jurisdiction and rules is so important. As Chief McMullen said, wildland firefighters are employees of provincial wildland agencies. The 126,000 firefighters that Chief McMullen talked about — with the 70% volunteer — are part of the local fire departments.
Senator McBean: We have to get the federal governments in there.
In all of this, who has jurisdiction over a fire that would start, say, in — okay, let’s go all the way there — a national urban park. Is it the province? It’s a national park in a province, but it’s an urban one. Who has got that?
Mr. McMullen: We would debate that all day.
Senator McBean: And the fire burns.
Mr. McMullen: Exactly. It begins locally, so I would suggest literally at the time of that event, if it started in an urban area within a park, Parks Canada has jurisdiction. As that expands, as fire does, then the coordination effort continues on.
At the end of the day, there is something called unified command or joint command where individuals from multiple jurisdictions come in. You will see provincial states of emergency. You could ultimately see the involvement of the federal emergency operations centre. It does expand as resources and needs require it to do so. But the simplest answer is: You literally go to the jurisdiction for which the fire began, and that’s who takes jurisdiction until it goes beyond that.
Senator McBean: I think I ran out of time. How did CIFFC see that for the larger national parks in provincial land?
Ms. Walker: It’s the same. We all follow ICS Canada incident command structure and training. When we have unified command, it means there’s still one leader that is chosen based on the jurisdiction of the actual lands of the wildland fire, which in a national park is likely going to be Parks Canada leading the wildfire incident if their person has the training and expertise to be that incident commander.
Senator McBean: And Parks Canada has their own firefighting.
The Chair: I have bent the rules. I’m going to ask Senator Robinson to have the last word.
Senator Robinson: Thank you. I’ll be quick, but the answer can be long. I’m interested in the potential knowledge sharing that happened in Washington. I’ve done a lot of that in my former life, and I think it’s so wonderful to meet internationally and learn from our countries.
You made the comment that due to budgetary restraints, a lot of departments are deferring purchasing new equipment, and I can appreciate what dangers that presents in the entire scenario. I’m wondering, was there anything you learned in Washington — and even beyond this question — that you want to share? Take a moment and tell us something that we should know that you haven’t been asked a question to tell us.
Mr. McMullen: Wonderful, and I won’t take too much time. I would spend all day.
First of all, it was such a tremendous opportunity and I would suggest that in the absence of a national coordination centre, the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs is deliberately and intentionally filling that spot. We are making ourselves the trusted voice of government in Canada.
In a nutshell, there were four key initiatives that were discussed during the inaugural World Fire Congress with 54 countries. We are talking about emerging technology. The use of energy and lithium-ion batteries are a worldwide issue. Mental health and cancer prevention is a worldwide health issue. Appropriate staffing of people, resources and apparatus is a worldwide issue, and the cost of fire service continues to be a worldwide issue.
Just to talk about this concept of the lithium ion and the introduction of technology coming into our world, the number one take away was involve industry and have industry involve government in the choices that are being made as far as the advancement of things like lithium-ion batteries in our countries. On one hand, we believe this energy efficiency will do so much benefit to our world, but the opposing challenges to that are the fire risks associated with it in doing so.
So the theme from the inaugural meeting, which is just the beginning of conversations, is to continue to have conversations, share data, share resources with one another, so we are all talking at the same level. And I think that as an industry, if we all are advocating at the same level, to the same individuals across the world, we will likely see better results at the end of the day.
Senator Robinson: Thank you.
The Chair: I want to remind our witnesses that if there is other information that you think we should hear, feel free to send it to our clerk. That’s an option that is open to anyone. The rest of that day you were talking about, chief, send our clerk a document.
Mr. McMullen: It will come.
The Chair: Witnesses, I want to thank you for your participation today. Your testimony and insight is very much appreciated. We can see and feel the passion that you have for the sector and the issues that you speak about.
Thank you also to my colleagues, committee members, for your active participation and thoughtful questions.
Senators, is it agreed that we suspend briefly to continue in camera for consideration of a draft report?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
(The committee continued in camera.)