THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON INDIGENOUS PEOPLES
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Wednesday, September 27, 2023
The Standing Senate Committee on Indigenous Peoples met with videoconference this day at 6:45 p.m. [ET] to examine the federal government’s constitutional, treaty, political and legal responsibilities to First Nations, Inuit and Métis peoples and any other subject concerning Indigenous Peoples.
[Editor’s note: Please note that this transcript may contain strong language and addresses sensitive matters that may be difficult to read.]
Senator Brian Francis (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, I would like to begin by acknowledging that the land on which we gather is the traditional, ancestral and unceded territory of the Anishinaabe Algonquin Nation. It is now home to many other First Nations, Métis and Inuit peoples from across Turtle Island. I am Mi’kmaw Senator Brian Francis from Epekwitk, also known as Prince Edward Island, and I am the Chair of the Committee on Indigenous Peoples.
Before we begin our meeting, I’ll ask committee members in attendance to introduce themselves by stating their name and province or territory.
Senator Arnot: My name is Senator David Arnot. I’m from Saskatchewan. I live in Treaty 6 territory.
Senator Hartling: Hello, I am Senator Hartling from New Brunswick. I live on the unceded territory of the Mi’kmaq people.
Senator Martin: Good evening, I’m Yonah Martin from British Columbia.
Senator Sorensen: Karen Sorensen from Alberta. It’s Treaty 7 territory.
Senator Coyle: Mary Coyle, Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Mi’kma’ki.
Senator Greenwood: Margo Greenwood from the province of British Columbia and the very best of Treaty 6 territory.
The Chair: Thank you, everyone. Today, we are continuing the series of briefings meant to inform and guide the future work of this committee.
Before I proceed, I want to note that the content of this meeting relates to Indian residential schools, which some may find distressing. There is support available for anyone requiring assistance at all times, free of charge, via the National Residential School Crisis Line at 1-866-925-4419 and Hope for Wellness at 1-800-721-0066 or at www.hopeforwellness.ca.
Now I want to give you some background about today.
You may recall that last March, the Committee on Indigenous Peoples heard from the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation and the Office of the Independent Special Interlocutor for Missing Children and Unmarked Graves and Burial Sites associated with Indian Residential Schools regarding their respective work. Based on this testimony, on July 19, the Committee on Indigenous Peoples issued an interim report entitled Honouring the Children Who Never Came Home: Truth, Education and Reconciliation.
One of the recommendations made in this interim report included a commitment to hold a public hearing with governments, church entities and others who continue to withhold records about residential schools and associated sites. During tonight’s meeting, we will hear from these witnesses.
I would now like to introduce our witnesses. From Deschâtelets-NDC Archives, Father Luc Tardif, Provincial Superior, and Jordan Dosch, Director of Finance and Administration. From OMI Lacombe Canada, Father Ken Thorson, Provincial, and Robert Meilleur, Chief Administrative Officer.
Wela’lin. Thank you all for joining us today.
Witnesses will provide opening remarks of approximately five minutes, which will be followed by a question-and-answer session with senators.
I will now invite Father Tardif to give his opening remarks.
[Translation]
Luc Tardif, Father, Provincial Superior, Deschâtelets-NDC Archives: Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for inviting us to be here this evening. I am Father Luc Tardif, Provincial of the Missionary Oblates of Notre-Dame-du-Cap. I am here this evening with our Director of Finance, Jordan Dosch. The Oblates of Notre-Dame-du-Cap are in charge of the Deschâtelets-NDC Archives located in Richelieu, on the traditional unceded territory of the Mohawk and Abenaki peoples.
I am happy to talk to the committee about steps the Deschâtelets-NDC Archives has taken and continues to take to share with the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation and Indigenous communities records relating to the Oblates’ historical involvement in residential schools. In many ways, this work is part of the reconciliation efforts of our congregation, which, in 1991, apologized for the first time for the role Oblates played in the operation of residential schools. At that time, we also committed to meeting with Indigenous peoples and facilitating access to the truth about residential schools.
That’s why Canada’s Oblates turned over more than 40,000 documents to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada. These are now held at the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation. More than 27,000 of the documents came from Deschâtelets-NDC Archives. We also funded resources to facilitate the work of gathering and digitizing documents.
The Oblates recognized the need to speed up access to records, so in July 2021 they reached an agreement with the national centre to keep providing documents on an ongoing basis. Since then, more than 75,000 additional Oblate documents from four archives across the country, including the Deschâtelets Archives, have been digitized and inventoried.
We know there is still much work to be done. We are currently checking the list of documents already in the national centre’s possession and completing the digitization and transfer of our documents. This is a huge task involving many linear metres of archives.
We are also about to sign a memorandum of understanding with the national centre to be able to transfer documents from Oblate personnel files. Alongside our efforts to share files with the national centre, we are working to respond to requests from individuals, communities and Indigenous researchers seeking access to our records.
Our team includes two people specifically tasked with responding to requests from Indigenous researchers. One of our three full-time archivists is dedicated to the issue of residential schools. Their role and responsibilities include welcoming individuals, locating and digitizing documents and following up on research requests.
The second is the director of our office for the protection of minors and vulnerable people. Their role is to provide support for dossiers with a significant abuse component.
In September 2022, we also adopted specific procedures for welcoming Indigenous researchers. These procedures respect Indigenous social protocols.
We recognize that this work is very important, and we are fully committed to carrying it out. We are approaching it with humility and a desire to learn through dialogue and conversations like the one we’re having this evening. Once again, thank you for the invitation. My colleague Mr. Dosch and I are available to answer your questions.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you, Father Tardif.
I’ll now invite Father Thorson to give his opening remarks.
Ken Thorson, Father, Provincial, OMI Lacombe Canada: Good evening, Mr. Chair. Thank you to you and the members of the committee for inviting us to appear today.
My name is Father Ken Thorson, Provincial of the Oblates of Mary Immaculate, OMI Lacombe Canada. I am here this evening with Robert Meilleur, Chief Administrative Officer of OMI Lacombe Canada.
I’m joining you from the OMI Lacombe head office, which is located on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people. My remarks today will be focused on the work of OMI Lacombe with respect to the preservation, digitization and management of residential school records.
While this work is not new, it would be fair to say that our commitment has been renewed and strengthened since May 2021 when the heartbreaking discoveries in Kamloops demonstrated both the pain felt by many survivors and the desire for a more complete account of residential school history. I have had many difficult conversations with Indigenous leaders since that time, and I believe that we are a more informed, more transparent congregation as a result.
In July 2021, the Oblates entered into a public agreement with the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation for ongoing collaboration. Since then, more than 75,000 Oblate records have been digitized and inventoried. This is in addition to 40,000 that were shared as part of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada process.
Within the past two years, this has included a collection of codices, or, or daily logs in connection with 16 residential schools, the names of 400 Oblates who worked in residential schools, as well as close to 1,000 students and the facilitation of 165 access requests from researchers, journalists and intergenerational survivors.
We have reached agreements with four provincial archives: The Deschâtelets-NDC Archives in Richelieu, the Centre du patrimoine in St. Boniface, the Provincial Archives of Alberta in Edmonton and the Royal BC Museum in Victoria to transfer relevant residential school records and make them available. We have funded additional archival resources in all four locations.
Father Luc Tardif and Jordan Dosch of Notre-Dame-du-Cap will be able to tell you more about Richelieu, in particular, and I’m pleased that this committee was able to speak with representatives from the Royal BC Museum and the Société historique de Saint-Boniface. Their ongoing partnership is critical to this work.
We have also collaborated with the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation, also known as NCTR, by inviting the Head of Archives, Raymond Frogner, to the Oblate General House in Rome in July of 2022, where he was accompanied by Mr. Meilleur and granted full access to identify records that may relate to the residential school legacy. Work is ongoing to digitize and transfer items that were identified by Mr. Frogner and compare his findings with records held in Canada.
Presently, we are working with the NCTR to expand access to documentation that was previously not available due to privacy law restrictions, including personnel files. We are nearing what I hope will be the concluding stages of an agreement that will allow for expanded access.
The NCTR has an important mandate that we intend to continue supporting, and we agree with this committee’s recommendation that the centre should be provided with adequate, predictable, stable and long-term funding. We take this partnership extremely seriously and have sought to learn from Indigenous researchers and partners with humility as we continue this important work.
I believe that improved coordination with governments and legislatures may contribute to a more transparent, easy-to-navigate records management process, and I hope that today’s discussion is a useful exercise in helping us to work together better.
I look forward to answering your questions. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you, Father Thorson.
I’m going to take the opportunity to ask the first question to Father Thorson.
The Oblates General Archives in Rome, which were originally invited to appear by the Indigenous Peoples Committee, asked that OMI Lacombe Canada appear instead. Are you here to speak solely from the perspective of your province, or are you speaking on behalf of the Oblates General Archives and the work of all provinces in Canada?
Father Thorson: I’m speaking for myself, and my colleague, Mr. Meilleur, will be able to speak to the Rome archives, and also to questions that you may have regarding our work in regard to the digitization and transfer of files that have been part of our mandate since 2021.
The Chair: Mr. Meilleur, do you have anything to add?
Robert Meilleur, Chief Administrative Officer, OMI Lacombe Canada: No, I don’t have anything to add at this time. I will gladly elaborate if anybody has questions regarding the visit that Mr. Frogner and I had to the Oblate General Archives in Rome, for sure.
The Chair: I have one more question before we move on.
Is there a reason why the Oblates General Archives declined our invitation, or are they still willing to appear voluntarily if we have outstanding questions you cannot answer today?
Father Thorson: I would have to check with the general administration. In part, the conversation between ourselves and the general administration in Rome was around the question of language and around the reality that Mr. Meilleur accompanied Mr. Frogner and was present throughout Mr. Frogner’s visit to Rome and so has the capacity to respond to the questions regarding the experience of the visit to Rome by Mr. Frogner. But we’re certainly open to exploring that question with our general administration. I can’t answer for them.
The Chair: That’s fair. If you could do that and respond to us in writing very soon, that would be greatly appreciated.
Father Thorson: Very good.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator Arnot: Thank you to the witnesses. I have a general question just to clarify a couple of things that I’ve heard.
The Deschâtelets-NDC Archives are Oblate archives. You also have, as I understand it, a new province, OMI Lacombe, and inside that there are five provinces: St. Peter’s, Manitoba Corporation, St. Mary’s, Grandin and St. Paul. Have I got that right?
Father Thorson: Yes, you have that right. The Notre-Dame-du-Cap is an amalgamation. So the province that Father Tardif represents is an amalgamation of two previous provinces restructuring because of diminishing numbers primarily. OMI Lacombe is an amalgamation of the five Oblate provinces that you mentioned, again restructured in 2003 because of diminishing numbers.
Senator Arnot: Father Thorson, where do you live? Where’s your central base? Is it Ontario?
Father Thorson: Yes, in Ottawa.
Senator Arnot: Thank you. Forty thousand documents were provided by the Oblates, of which 27,000 were from the NDC Deschâtelets. You’ve since digitized 75,000 additional documents. How many more documents are in the possession of the Oblates, yet to be digitized and therefore yet to be archived? Do you know that number now?
Father Thorson: Thank you for the question. I can say, first of all, that we intend to make all the records in our possession that are relevant to residential school history available to the NCTR. I can’t speak for the individual archives, which own and curate the records. It would be, I think, guessing to say how many records there are. Part of the ongoing work is reading through the files of the Oblates, and so there’s an ongoing addition to the number that will be transferred to the NCTR. Perhaps Rob Meilleur might have an addition to that.
Mr. Meilleur: I can add a couple of points. If you recall in your meeting last week with the Royal BC Museum and the Saint Patrimoine when they spoke about the linear footage of files, some of those are residential school, some of them aren’t. Some of them are just plain administration of the province where the Oblates resided. One of the tasks that each one of the archives has is to literally go through every single document to see if it’s residential school related, is it strictly administration, is it a letter from the provincial saying, “I hope you have a nice summer vacation.” So, no, we can’t give you an accurate number.
We are very blessed with people like Emma and Janet and the folks at the Provincial Archives of Alberta, also known as PAA, who have undertaken this task to literally go through every single document, because everything will eventually be digitized. It doesn’t necessarily mean that it will all go to the NCTR because it may be totally unrelated to residential schools.
Senator Arnot: I’m trying to find out if you can help. Do you have any idea how many more linear yards you still have? If so, you could kind of determine a ballpark on how many documents, given the number of documents that relate to the residential schools out of the ones you’ve already digitized. How much money is required to complete the work professionally, and what kind of timeline?
It’s really about the timeline because time is of the essence. This needs to be accelerated in some way, I think. This is what I believe, anyway. We can’t keep these records from Indigenous families because it’s so critical to reconciliation and bringing closure to some families.
Father Thorson: Senator, perhaps I could respond. I agree with you, but I think the most accurate answer would come from the directors of the archives or the archivists themselves, the archivists that we’ve hired. I think that’s something we can look into and get back to you.
Senator Arnot: Could you follow up on that and report to the clerk?
Father Thorson: Sure.
Senator Arnot: This is a critical piece of information.
Father Thorson: For sure. I understand. As you say, time is of the essence.
Senator Arnot: It’s really critical. I really appreciate your cooperation on that. It would be quite helpful.
Father Thorson: Okay.
Senator Arnot: Thank you.
Senator Sorensen: Thank you very much. I have two questions for both organizations, and it’s in response to a comment made about expanded and full access.
Are there any documents you have committed to transfer that are held by another organization that you have not been able to access? And does any legislation or legal issue prevent your organization from releasing certain records?
Father Thorson: Thank you, senator. I was writing the question down.
Any document committed to transfer that we have not been able to transfer. I think that was your question.
Senator Sorensen: Any documents you have committed to transfer that are held by another organization and therefore you haven’t been able to access.
Secondly, is there any legislation or legal issue that prevents your organization from releasing certain records?
Father Thorson: In answer to the first question, I don’t think that’s the case, but I would defer to Mr. Meilleur who would be more familiar with that, I think.
Mr. Meilleur: I don’t believe so, senator, when I look at the documents. The Oblates are a religious congregation. There are documents we hold. There are documents that the dioceses hold, and of course, then, if you go back to the days of the residential schools, there are documents that the government held. We don’t necessarily have access to those, but when I look at what we are committed to sending to the national centre, I believe it covers what we can give.
Senator Sorensen: I guess what I’m getting at is that clause of “what we can give,” and I’m wondering what you can’t give.
Father Thorson: Senator, perhaps I can respond. The dioceses, of course, would be transferring church records, records of births, of deaths, et cetera. The bulk of that kind of record would not be held by the Oblates. It would be held by parishes and dioceses. I can’t comment on individual dioceses, but I think they are trying to participate in supplying records to the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation and to individual communities and researchers who come with requests.
Then, of course, we have no effect that we can bring to bear on the government.
Senator Sorensen: Just to follow up on the idea of legislation or any legal issues that are preventing you from sending anything —
Father Thorson: The only legislation that would keep us from sending in a particular document of an Oblate who worked in a residential school would be the privacy legislation for those Oblates who worked at schools who might still be living. Until those Oblates pass, those records can’t be transferred because they are their personal records. Once those Oblates pass, we will be able to transfer those records within two years to the NCTR.
Senator Sorensen: Okay. That’s new information for me. Thank you.
Senator Coyle: Thank you very much to Father Tardif and Father Thorson and Mr. Dosch and Mr. Meilleur for being with us. We’re all trying to find the various pieces of this very important puzzle. Father Thorson, I appreciated what you said that a more complete account of residential school history is what we’re all after here. It is helpful for us to get complete answers to the questions.
I have a couple of questions. I am trying to understand what is held in Italy versus what is held in Canada. What is the distinction there? Is there a general distinction? What kinds of records are in Rome versus held here in Canada? That would probably be for Father Thorson.
You just told us about the issue with personnel files. I want to probe a little bit further. This privacy legislation — whose legislation is it? Under what authority are the personnel files of your members who are still living not accessible? I’d like to understand that legislation better. Whose legislation is it, and is there any way of overcoming that?
So those are two questions for you.
I may have misunderstood or misheard what Father Tardif was saying — or at least it came across in the translation into English. You mentioned something about support in cases of abuse. Did I hear that correctly? If I did, what did you mean by that?
Father Thorson: Thank you, Senator, for the question. I will begin, and I will ask Rob Meilleur to respond after I’ve said a few words about the records in Rome. What I would say is that — and Mr. Frogner from the NCTR was witness to this — the Oblates in Rome — our general administration — have a very thin file for every Oblate. In that thin file are the basic documents common to every Oblate, such as when we make our final profession or with the community or when we are, in the case of priests, ordained. So they would have those types of documents.
The active personnel files would be held in the unit or the place where the Oblate lives. This is the file that, I think, is of interest to the NCTR.
Mr. Meilleur, would you have any more to say about that?
Mr. Meilleur: Just a few words. When Mr. Frogner came with me to Rome, we let him have full access to all of the archives. So he saw pictures of residential school students. We agreed to scan and send these images to the NCTR. They’ve now reached Canada in Richelieu with the Oblate archivist there. Her job is to attach all of the meta data that is required before it gets sent to the national centre.
He saw administrative records. As Father Thorson said, the personnel files are very thin. We did not restrict any access to any file while he was there. I know he produced a report, which, I think, was sent to his leadership. As it stands right now, I believe the only task we have with them on those records is to finalize the digitization of those photographs — I believe.
Senator Coyle: Before Father Tardif answers my question, could I probe a little further? Could you tell us if there are still any living members of your congregation who were involved directly with residential schools, and therefore there would be personnel records that might be of interest to the national centre that they don’t have access to?
Father Thorson: There are a small number of living Oblates who worked in residential schools. As you can imagine, these are all elderly men. So their personnel records would be held for the moment until their passing. Once they have passed, our intention would be to provide the file to the NCTR.
Senator Coyle: That privacy legislation, as you refer to it, that prevents you from sharing the records of those living members of the congregation at this moment — is that your internal legislation? Whose legislation is that?
Father Thorson: My understanding is that it is what we are told by our counsel. Previous to the two years, we had a 50-year limit. After the revelations from Kamloops in the summer of 2021, we decided to revisit that, and we eventually decided on two years. My understanding is that this is — and certainly, I’m not a lawyer — provincial and perhaps federal legislation.
I’m not sure, Mr. Meilleur, if you are able to speak to the question of privacy legislation. I want to avoid saying anything that is really offering legal opinion.
Mr. Meilleur: I don’t know any more than Father Ken at this time. As we have worked and manœuvred through these changes with the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation, they have been very helpful in helping us better understand with our own legal people. As Father Ken mentioned, we have an agreement with them right now, which is in draft form, that has been going back and forth between the two organizations. We hope it will be finalized soon, at which time all of those who have passed — which is a big change for the Oblates as well. Two years ago, we would have said these files are considered sealed for 50 years. Some of that also has to do with family, living relatives of Oblates. I can’t offer anything more than that.
Senator Coyle: Thank you. Can Father Tardif answer whether I heard him correctly? Did you mention support in cases of abuse, and if so, what did you mean by that?
[Translation]
Mr. Tardif: Thank you for the question, senator.
Regarding what you were referring to, as I said, our employees include three full-time people in the archives plus another person who is the director of our offices for the protection of minors. The role of the director of the protection of minors and vulnerable people is to provide support on files with an abuse component, in a very broad and inclusive way. That person’s job is to see to protection in all situations and undertakings. This is supplementary to the work of the archives.
[English]
Senator Coyle: Okay. Thank you.
The Chair: I will follow up on some previous questions for Father Thorson and Mr. Meilleur. Are you working to centralize your records so it is easier for Indigenous people and communities to locate records about what happened to children in residential schools, including where our children are buried? I’ve heard it can take researchers months, if not years, to search across various dioceses to get the answers, and we all know that time is of the essence here.
Father Thorson: Thank you, senator. As you say, time is of the essence. To just offer a distinction between ourselves and dioceses, and the files that dioceses might hold as opposed to the files that we might hold, we have moved back and forth on the question of the location of our archives or discussed it over the years. We decided a good number of years ago — I think six or seven years ago — that we would leave the archives in the place where the history happened. For our work in British Columbia and in the Yukon, it’s at the Royal BC Museum, also known as RBCM, with our thinking being that the people who want to access that or ancestors who went to the schools — survivors, researchers — that it is most likely that they would be — not certain, of course — but most likely that they would still be living in that part of the country. So rather than relocate everything to Ottawa or one central location, we leave the archival record in the place where the history happened.
The Chair: Mr. Meilleur, do you have anything to add?
Mr. Meilleur: If you speak to archivists, they will tell you to leave the document where the history occurred, and we follow that. I am not an archivist, but in consultation with the RBCM, PAA and Le Centre du patrimoine, that’s what we’ve done.
Maybe Mr. Dosch will want to expand on this, but in the early days of the Oblates coming to Canada, much of that historical information was stored in Deschâtelets because they were the only archive for the Oblates in Canada at one time. We’ve been working with the archivists in the Richelieu to — again, if it belongs to B.C., let’s get it in B.C. If it belongs in Alberta, let’s get it to Alberta. We have them focus more on the archives of Quebec. Correct me if I’m wrong.
[Translation]
Jordan Dosch, Director of Finance and Administration, Deschâtelets-NDC Archives: Thank you very much, senator.
Yes, I can confirm that the archival material held at Richelieu goes back the furthest in the history of the Oblates in Canada. That’s one of the challenges for our archivists as they search and try to put all the pieces of the residential school file together. We may very well have archival material pertaining to missions in Western Canada because ours was the first Oblate unit in Canada. That means there is archival material scattered throughout the collection.
As Mr. Meilleur said, we are in the process of reviewing, digitizing and transferring documents to the places where these events took place.
[English]
Senator Martin: We’ve been talking about timelines and that time is of the essence. I was just listening to Mr. Meilleur and Father Thorson. Mr. Frogner spent five days at the general archive, and based on what we’ve heard from other places, five days doesn’t seem very long. You mentioned that there were a thousand photos in the drawers. In terms of time, what sort of support did Mr. Frogner have? Were there special archivists or researchers who were able to assist in that process? Because I’m wondering if everything he needed was, in fact, discovered or identified.
My second question is have the Oblates taken steps, since Mr. Frogner’s visit to Rome, to grant access to the NCTR so that the centre can review other Oblates’ records and request the transfer of all relevant records and images of the order’s missions in Canada.
Five days does not seem like a very long time to be able to uncover and retrieve what was needed. Would you first address that part of the question, the kind of support that Frogner would have had to be able to find these records? Has there been any follow-up since?
Father Thorson: Sure. I will say a few words and then I will invite Mr. Meilleur, who was present with Mr. Frogner, to speak further.
Our archives in Rome is relatively small. To call it an archive is generous in the sense that it is more a depository of the relationship between the Oblate provinces, as we call them, and the general administration. As I said, there is a slim file for every Oblate at the archive.
Mr. Frogner had access to those files, and those files contain basic information. It would be my understanding that they would contain no detailed information about the life of an Oblate or his work at the school. All of that information would be kept in his active file in Canada.
As for support, I will let Mr. Meilleur speak to that. But, as I say, our archive is quite small. As far as I understand, Mr. Frogner came away satisfied that he had been able to see what he wanted to see at the archive in Rome. Thank you.
Mr. Meilleur: Senator, if I can add just a little bit to that conversation, when we talk about a relatively small archive, I believe it is smaller than the room where you are sitting for your meeting today. It’s probably about that size. Again, Canada represents a small portion of the worldwide congregation that make up the Oblates.
Our archivist is a gentleman. He is probably one of the nicest Oblates I’ve met — and I won’t say that too loud because I have two of them sitting in the room with me — but with his educational background, he was asked to take over the archives about 10 or 12 years ago. Again, it’s a very small archive. We provided Mr. Frogner with whatever he was looking for.
To give you an example, Mr. Frogner found some pictures of students in schools in four drawers that were attributed to Canada. Father Jerome, our archivist, scanned all of the images in the four drawers and sent them to Canada. I’ve sent a representative sampling for quality to Mr. Frogner to have a good look at and tell us what he wants in terms of more information.
Mr. Frogner chose the records of the Oblates that he wanted to see. He came in with a list and he said, “I’d like to see the personnel records of these 20 Oblates.” We pulled the records and gave them to him to examine so that he would have something to compare to when he comes back to Canada.
Mr. Frogner is quite welcome to come back if he needs to do more work. I also felt when he left that he felt satisfied with what he had found.
Father Thorson: I just wanted to reiterate Mr. Meilleur’s comment that the door would be open to Mr. Frogner to return if he felt that would be helpful. Our general administration, our leadership in Rome, is sympathetic to this work and is open to, as I say, a return visit if the NCTR deems it necessary.
Senator Martin: It seems like most of the relevant records are in Canada, so I guess that openness would apply to whatever is needed from the Canadian places where these records will be held.
Is there a follow-up on the part of the Oblates to ensure that the records in Canada are being transferred to the NCTR?
Father Thorson: Perhaps Mr. Meilleur and Mr. Dosch can speak to this, but the transfer of records is ongoing. Our commitment is to continue that work until the relevant archival material — relevant to residential schools — is transferred to the NCTR.
Mr. Meilleur: If I can speak a bit to it, when you met with the Royal BC Museum and the St. Patrimoine, they spoke last week of the amount of work that needs to be done to create this file that needs to go to the NCTR. I believe they spoke about metadata a couple of times, which means every record needs a unique identifier, it needs to have a description, a title, something that describes the record. They’re doing that.
When Mr. Frogner came back from Rome, he actually spent — I’m not going to say a week, but I know he stopped in Deschâtelets while he was here, and I can let Mr. Dosch speak to that. I know that he’s visited at least the RBCM, as I was told, that he went out and spent some time there, as well as the St. Patrimoine, as it’s local to him in Winnipeg. I know he’s been very active with the locations on continuing the education for them and working with them on the protocols to get the archives digitized and sent to the national centre.
Senator Hartling: Thank you for being here with us and the cooperation that you’re offering on this subject. It’s a deeply troubling subject, and as others have said, it’s of the essence to know what’s going on.
I’m concerned about the children of residential schools. You mentioned pictures and all of that. What’s the next step? How do those children get identified? I know some names have been changed. What’s the process and what kinds of skills are needed to ensure that they’re identified?
Father Thorson: Thank you for the question, senator. Perhaps Mr. Meilleur or Mr. Dosch can speak to this, but I expect, for myself certainly, this is a technical archival question or research archival question.
What I would say, senator, is that this is precisely the reason that we’ve offered funding to the different centres to speed this work and to assist the different archives with this because, as you and other senators have said, time is of the essence. Mr. Meilleur, any more to say to that?
Mr. Meilleur: Other than it’s a difficult task. Many of these pictures are very old. I know when Mr. Frogner and I were in Rome and looking at pictures, he said, “Oh, I believe that’s this school. Based on what I’m seeing, it looks like it might be 1940‑ish.” It’s not as easy as turning the picture over and the names are on the back.
I can’t speak for them, but I know they either have or are looking to invest in some kind of optical recognition that would take some of these pictures and see if they can help identify as well. There are some yearbooks that are out there. There are a variety of tools available to help. Whether or not they’re as good as they should be, I can’t say anything more than that at this point.
Senator Hartling: Thank you.
Senator Greenwood: Thank you for taking the time to appear before us. I’m deeply grateful.
I have a couple of comments and then a couple of questions. I really want to underscore the importance of trying to get a handle on the quantity of records. As I listen to you talk about this, there are records that are scattered across Canada in different locations and also internationally. I think you’ve described some of the kinds of records that are in Rome.
I was curious when you were talking about dioceses and how they had birth and death records. They have some really important records that aren’t necessarily a part of the organizations that you’re working with. It seems that they’re independent of that. Trying to get a handle on quantity, then, is difficult, I would imagine, but I think it’s really important because we would not want to miss an important piece of the puzzle from this over 150-year-old story.
There was also some conversation about relevancy and meaningful records and those sorts of things. I’m wondering about the role of Indigenous people and the NCTR in determining relevancy. At one end of the stick, you just want to say, “Why don’t we just hand them over, all of it?” I appreciate that there are probably administrative things that may not be meaningful to the NCTR, but who determines relevancy? That’s one of my questions.
The second question I have is a much more specific one. It has to do with personnel files that, as I understand — and please correct me if I’m wrong — two years after the person passes, the records can be released. This is just an example. What if there is proof of abuse or crimes while children were in their care? Would that be released earlier or not, prior to their passing? I know you said many of these folks have passed.
Father Thorson: Yes.
Senator Greenwood: That’s another question that I’m sure people ask. I’ll leave you with that.
Father Thorson: Thank you, senator. If I may, I’d speak to the second question first because it’s an important question, obviously.
The personnel records; if there was proof or a claim of abuse against a living Oblate who worked at the schools or a living Oblate who didn’t work in the schools, we would make the files available to the relevant authorities. We would make the file available to whatever legal process might be brought. That has been our practice now for many years. I can assure you of that.
Who determines relevancy? It’s an interesting question. Certainly, the TRC in their mandate to the NCTR, in the creation of the NCTR, there were a number of criteria or sets of documents — school records, baptismal church records, photographs and other categories of documents — that were determined as relevant, determined as needing to be transferred to the NCTR, supplied to the NCTR.
I suppose originally the mandate comes from the TRC. We are open to expanding those parameters in the way that we did with opening up access to the Codex Historicus, which was of great concern to Indigenous communities. It was the daily diary of Oblate communities in the different missions. In the particular residential school, there would be a daily diary called the codex. For many years — I’m not quite sure why — those weren’t a part of what was transferred en masse. After May 2021 we made the decision that we would transfer those files, and that work is under way. That’s slow work because they’re documents of various sizes and they’re fragile. So it’s page by page by page. It is slow work, but it’s coming.
The other document, of course, that we have decided to make available are the personnel files. There is openness, but I expect with the personnel files, as far as it occurs to me, with the personnel files, that would be all of the documents that are relevant to residential school history, with the addition of the codex and the personnel files. I stand to be corrected, but I think that’s the case.
Senator Greenwood: I have one quick follow-up, just to make sure I understand.
When you were talking earlier, you have an agreement, you’ve signed an agreement to share records, does that include the dioceses? Do you speak for them as well?
Father Thorson: No, we don’t. Each diocese is a distinct entity incorporation, and so the individual bishops would speak for their diocese.
Senator Greenwood: Are they in a specific location, then, each bishop? And if you said that the archival record lives where the history is, so they would then probably have a number of records; is that correct?
Father Thorson: Yes, they do, and I can’t speak for every diocese, but certainly the dioceses that had residential schools within their geographic boundaries, as far as I know, are cooperating with the process of transferring documentation to the NCTR.
I come from Saskatchewan originally, and I know for a fact that the dioceses in Saskatchewan are all involved in this work, and I expect that’s the case across the country.
Senator Greenwood: Thank you.
The Chair: I’m going to jump in with a quick question for any of you. How many staff have you hired to expedite the transfer of all records in your possession, and when do you think they will complete this work? Also, are you planning to hire more on a long-term basis? If so, how many?
Father Thorson: For OMI Lacombe Canada, because Mr. Meilleur has been the one most closely associated with this work, I’ll let him answer first.
Mr. Meilleur: Senator, to date we have not hired anyone, but we’ve funded organizations to go and hire people. That’s how we’ve decided to do this task. We’ve looked to the RBCM, the PAA, as well as the St. Patrimoine to decide what skill sets they are looking for, the weakness that it has, and go out and find this person, and we will spend the money to pay for it.
We’re funding a person in Richelieu as well, dedicated to the Oblate archives of Lacombe, even though they’re co-resident.
I do know that the archives are entitled to receive some assistance from the NCTR. There are a couple of grants out there where they’ve actually funded additional people. I’d say we have at least one extra person in each archive that’s funded by the Oblates. In some cases it’s one and a half or two extra people. Some of the archives also have a group of volunteers, people who are very dedicated to Oblate life and archival work and the history. I know that in St. Boniface they have a group of volunteers who are assisting as well.
Are we ready to put more resources? We’re looking to the archives to tell us what they need and we will review it and most likely fund it.
Father Thorson: I would echo what Mr. Meilleur has said. We’ve had these conversations with the NCTR. We have made offers at times or expressed our openness to further funding, and that offer, that openness to explore with the NCTR and the archives how we might help further remains.
The Chair: Thank you for that.
Senator Arnot: I have a question and I’d like to hear Father Tardif and Father Thorson answer the question. It’s about the role of the Oblates in reconciliation.
As everyone knows, Pope Francis came to Canada in July 2022, and some senators were there. I know Senator Francis and Senator Martin and I were there. It was a very moving experience, I would say, and the spirit of the message the Pope gave was that the church and Indigenous people should walk hand in hand on the pathway to reconciliation. I’m hearing tonight that there’s been goodwill on the part of the Oblates to fulfill the obligations that are before them. I’m hearing that best practices have been put forward. I’m hearing there’s a lot of cooperation to succeed in the task, and I’m hearing that the task is actually a huge undertaking.
Do you agree, Father Tardif and Father Thorson, that transparency through the provision of the information the Independent Special Interlocutor, Kimberly Murray, is asking for, will help communities heal? And do you agree that providing those records in a timely fashion is a critical foundation for the role that the Oblates must play in reconciliation with Indigenous people in Canada?
[Translation]
Mr. Tardif: Thank you for the question, senator. Yes, I can confirm that we, the Oblates, are committed to sharing and providing all the information we have relating to our historic involvement with First Nations. We are still working on the North Shore with Innu communities. A few years ago, we created a centre of Indigenous studies at Saint Paul University, an Oblate centre for justice with a strong focus on reconciliation.
The faculty of theology also has a strong focus on Indigenous issues. We have demonstrated full transparency in sharing the information in the records. We want to proceed as efficiently and effectively as possible to maximize our participation in reconciliation and enhance collaboration. We are very sensitive to all pathways to healing and reconciliation. Truth, transparency and unconditional sharing are essential.
[English]
Father Thorson: Thank you, senator, for the question.
I, too, was privileged to be present for Pope Francis’s visit to different parts of Canada, and on different occasions — one in particular — in Quebec, he spoke to the religious, and he spoke to the church very clearly, calling on us to respond to the moral mandate that comes to us because of our history and the residential schools.
In particular, we, as Oblates, understand that having run the number of schools and administered the number of schools that we did that we have a particular and important role to play in this process. We are committed to transparency and to reconciliation, to the work of reconciliation.
You can imagine that in the days after the announcements from Kamloops that these were difficult days for everybody. They were particularly tense in the communities where our Oblates serve and work in Indigenous communities. Time and time again, I heard stories from our Oblates of the people, the Indigenous people that they live with, coming to them and saying, “Father, we want you to stay. We want you to stay with us, to continue living with us, to continue walking with us.”
This is one of the fundamental efforts for reconciliation, continuing the work of being with the people. The difference today is that our work with Indigenous people is, as you said, walking together. It’s no longer us leading the conversation or setting the direction. It’s certainly in our parishes, in the work that we do in Indigenous communities. It’s Indigenous led, and we are there to accompany, to learn and to walk with.
Thank you.
Senator Coyle: I think, perhaps, my question has been answered, but let me just pose it.
Is there any record that has been asked for by any Indigenous community or the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation, that has not been provided to them by you?
Father Thorson: Senator, as far as I know, that is not the case. I believe, again, going back to the previous question, we are committed to transparency. If we were to discover that to be the case, taking into account privacy legislation that we spoke of earlier, questions around that, but the commitment, even with those, is to provide access relatively soon after the death of the Oblate.
Our commitment is to provide every document related to residential schools to the NCTR for provision to Indigenous communities.
Senator Coyle: Thank you.
Senator Sorensen: Maybe a statement, maybe a question, and then a question.
As the chair Senator Francis said at the beginning of the meeting, several weeks ago we heard from witnesses at this committee that said in their opinion, records were being withheld. This week we’re hearing from witnesses who are explaining just how hard everyone is working — including yourselves — to try to provide all the records as quickly as possible with, of course, the challenges of time and funding.
As a committee member, I’m really struggling with where that disconnect is, and I guess I’m encouraging you and others to try to resolve that disconnect. We clearly heard from witnesses that there is a problem. It may just be time and money, but that didn’t seem to be the impression we were left with.
I also want to mention — back to the living personnel — I’m struggling a lot with the fact that we have living personnel, who, frankly, are living archives, and those people must have very valuable information. We have residential school survivors with endless vivid, traumatic memories, and I guess I’m asking: Is part of reconciliation, is part of recovering the archives, interviewing living personnel, interviewing those living archives, to collect and record information from their experiences at the same schools where we hear so often and tragically from the residential school survivors?
Father Thorson: Thank you, senator.
Certainly, the image that you put forward of a living Oblate as a living archive is a compelling image, and, certainly, there’s truth to that.
It’s never been put forward before as a question, so I suppose what I would say is that I can’t speak for those Oblates. I expect that some of the Oblates who worked at the schools — I don’t know this, but I expect that some of the Oblates who worked at the schools may be open to those kinds of conversations.
These are elderly men, and so by definition they’re vulnerable persons, and so we do want to ensure access to the historical record, and so, as I say, it’s a compelling idea. I think it’s one that we could — as I say, I haven’t talked about it before, but I find it an interesting idea. I would be interested to discuss further with my colleagues, Father Luc and the others in leadership in our congregation, about that idea.
Senator Sorensen: Thank you. I hope so.
The Chair: That brings us to the end of our panel. I want to thank our witnesses for appearing tonight. A difficult conversation, but necessary, as we move forward in the spirit of reconciliation. We held you a little over time here, so we appreciate that as well.
I remind you that there are some written follow-up answers that will be required from you. If you could get them to our clerk, Andrea Mugny, within a week, if possible, that would be greatly appreciated as well.
(The committee adjourned.)