THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON INDIGENOUS PEOPLES
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Tuesday, November 7, 2023
The Standing Senate Committee on Indigenous Peoples met with videoconference this day at 9:01 a.m. [ET] to examine the federal government’s constitutional, treaty, political and legal responsibilities to First Nations, Inuit and Métis peoples and any other subject concerning Indigenous Peoples.
Senator Brian Francis (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, I would like to begin by acknowledging that the land on which we gather is the traditional, ancestral and unceded territory of the Anishinaabe Algonquin Nation and is now home to many other First Nations, Métis and Inuit peoples from across Turtle Island.
I am Mi’kmaw Senator Brian Francis from Epekwitk, also known as Prince Edward Island, and I am the Chair of the Committee on Indigenous Peoples.
Before we begin our meeting, I will ask committee members in attendance to introduce themselves by stating their name and province or territory.
Senator Tannas: Good morning. Scott Tannas from Alberta.
Senator Sorensen: Good morning, everybody. Karen Sorensen, Alberta, Treaty 7 territory.
Senator Coyle: Mary Coyle, Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Mi’kma’ki.
The Chair: Thank you, senators. Today, we are continuing the series of briefings meant to inform and guide the future work of this committee. Before I proceed, I want to note that the content of this meeting relates to Indian residential schools, which some may find distressing. There is support available for anyone requiring assistance at all times, free of charge, via the National Indian Residential School Crisis Line at 1-866-925-4419; and the Hope for Wellness Helpline at 1-855-242-3310, or at www.hopeforwellness.ca.
Now I want to give you some background about today. You may recall that last March, the Standing Senate Committee on Indigenous Peoples heard from the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation, or NCTR, and the Office of the Independent Special Interlocutor for Missing Children and Unmarked Graves and Burial Sites associated with Indian Residential Schools regarding their respective work. Based on this testimony, on July 19, the committee issued an interim report entitled Honouring the Children Who Never Came Home: Truth, Education and Reconciliation.
One of the recommendations made in this interim report included a commitment to hold a public hearing with governments, church entities and others who continue to withhold records about residential schools and associated sites. During this morning’s meeting, we will continue to hear from these witnesses. I would now like to introduce our witnesses: From the Archdiocese of Keewatin-Le Pas, we welcome Archbishop Murray Chatlain. And from the Oblate General Archives, we welcome Father Velichor Abaranam Jerome, General Archivist OMI; and Father Warren Brown, Representative of the OMI General Administration.
Wela’lin. Thank you for joining us today.
Witnesses will provide opening remarks of approximately five minutes, which will be followed by a question-and-answer session with the senators.
I will now invite Archbishop Murray Chatlain to give his opening remarks.
Murray Chatlain, Archbishop, Archdiocese of Keewatin-Le Pas: Good morning, dear members of the Senate committee. Thank you for your invitation to address you today.
I have been serving as the Archbishop of Keewatin-Le Pas since 2013. This past August 29, I was invited to go to Cross Lake, Manitoba — one of the communities we serve — and I was able to walk through the old residential school grounds and cemeteries, and look first-hand at the unmarked graves. Father Jose Cabral and I prayed with Kimberly Murray, Sandy Robinson and some of the other people of the community. It brought home to me even more strongly the need to support our families in learning as much history as possible, and to let the children who did not make it home from residential schools rest in peace.
We will continue to collaborate with bands and families as we work at reconciliation over this painful part of our history. Examples of work that the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops has undertaken to support the healing and reconciliation journey in response to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission Calls to Action are as follows: a national apology from the Bishops of Canada for the role the Catholic entities played in the residential school system; the creation of the Indigenous Reconciliation Fund, an independent charity funded by 73 Catholic entities, which is on track to raise $30 million over five years and is overseen by an Indigenous board of directors; embracing the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, and identifying opportunities to accompany Indigenous peoples in the pursuit of justice, healing and reconciliation; supporting Catholic institutions, seminaries and religious communities to foster greater understanding of Indigenous cultural, linguistic and spiritual traditions and values; collaboration with the Government of Canada, the Vatican, the Assembly of First Nations, the Métis Nation of Canada and the Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami to plan for a historic delegation to the Vatican, which has occurred, as well as the Holy Father’s pilgrimage to Canada; and working with the Vatican to support the formal repudiation of the ideas associated with the Doctrine of Discovery — and work continues there.
The Archdiocese of Keewatin-Le Pas submitted a copy of all archival files relating to residential schools to the NCTR beginning in 2013, and these were — what we believed — completely submitted by April 2, 2014. In 2021, a member of our archdiocesan staff found a box of files that contained some residential school lists. The box was in a different area of our archives. It just involves this amount; I brought a copy — that’s the size of it. We immediately contacted the NCTR and met with them in October 2021, where we agreed to have the files digitized and passed on to them following their required procedures. We sent the copies to the Société historique de Saint-Boniface, and they were digitized. Unfortunately, although I thought they had been passed on to the NCTR at that time, the files had not been submitted.
On October 3, 2023, we met again with Raymond Frogner and other staff of the NCTR to discuss how to complete this task. At this time, Chris Zaste did go to the archives on November 3, and, just yesterday, he finished the formation of the metadata sheet. So all the files from that group are now at the NCTR.
We are also looking at developing a memorandum of agreement between the NCTR and our archdiocese to access some of our sacramental records or other areas of our archives that could be helpful. We will continue to work with the NCTR while following guidelines for historical sacramental and death/burial records. Sacramental registers are some of the church’s most precious records and a sacred trust. They hold vital records of personal and civil importance, and so must be maintained in accordance with the privacy provisions under both federal and provincial civil law.
I’ve read the reports that have been presented on these issues, and I thank Kimberly Murray, the NCTR and all of you senators as well for the work of helping our families in this important area of grieving.
Thank you, meegwetch.
The Chair: Thank you, Archbishop Chatlain. I will now invite Father Jerome to give his opening remarks.
Velichor Abaranam Jerome, General Archivist OMI, Oblate General Archives: Honourable chairperson and committee members, good morning to you all. I thank you sincerely for this opportunity to appear virtually today. I am Father Velichor Abaranam Jerome, General Archivist of the General House in Rome. I present myself together with Father Warren Brown who, in September of 2022, completed 12 years as a member of the General Administration representing the Oblates of the Canada-United States region.
I will begin my remarks by recounting our work with the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation, or NCTR, which was facilitated by Father Ken Thorson, the Provincial Superior of the Oblate Province of OMI Lacombe Canada.
In March 2022, Father Ken Thorson indicated that Mr. Raymond Frogner, the Head of Archives at the NCTR, planned to visit the Oblate General House archives in Rome to review any relevant documentation to his research on residential school history. This was within the agreement between the OMI Lacombe Province and the NCTR, and the Superior General wanted us to be fully transparent and cooperate to the full extent that the laws of the church, country and the European Union permit. As you may know, the European Union’s privacy laws have stricter protections on access to personal data.
The OMI General Administration wanted to be in solidarity with the affected persons, to commit themselves to justice and peace for them and to work with other concerned parties for truth and reconciliation.
Mr. Frogner arrived in Rome on July 3, 2022, accompanied by Mr. Rob Meilleur, Chief Administrative Officer for the Oblate Province of OMI Lacombe Canada. The General House archives in Rome is a small private collection. However, our Superior General gave special permission for Mr. Frogner to have full access to the whole archives on the Canada mission, which is approximately 75.5 linear feet.
Mr. Frogner identified some photos and documents related to the residential schools in Canada to be sent to the NCTR in digital form. Most of the Oblate General Archives’ photos are part of a very informal collection, along with photos from other Oblate units, without any description. The members of the General Administration who visited Canada from Rome would have brought these photos, or they might have been sent to the Superior General for information about the congregation’s missionary work.
Mr. Frogner had a list of some Oblates who worked in residential schools. I provided him with the Oblates’ personnel files. These files generally contain the birth, baptism and confirmation certificates; certification of making vows and receiving holy orders, diaconate and priesthood ordination with assessment reports; and the letters from the individual Oblate’s superiors to him and about him. Mr. Frogner made notes, and he expressed his satisfaction with his findings.
We were also told that when he returned to Canada, he visited the archives in Richelieu, and he or his colleagues visited the Centre du patrimoine and the Royal BC Museum to view the corresponding Oblate files to validate his process of analysis.
As the archivist, I was satisfied with the visit and invited him back as part of our transparency to the NCTR and the Indigenous communities. He said that he would send us a list of documents on his return to be digitized and sent to the NCTR.
A new leadership team for the Oblates took office in October 2022, and the new Superior General pledged to continue supporting the truth and reconciliation efforts of the Canadian Oblates with the Indigenous peoples, and gave me permission to begin the work of digitization.
The identified photos and documents in the list given by Mr. Frogner have now been scanned and sent to the Oblate Richelieu archives to have metadata included, as required by the NCTR for search capabilities, and the Richelieu archives is working with the NCTR on sending test files for quality and search capabilities.
Toward the work of truth and reconciliation, the OMI General Administration is committed to collaborating, participating and sharing any information with the NCTR in accordance with the European Union’s established privacy rules for personal data.
I look forward to answering your questions. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you, Father Jerome. We will now move on to questions from senators. To help keep us on time and to ensure equity for all, each senator will have five minutes for a question-and-answer exchange, and we will go to a second round if we have time.
Senator Tannas: Thank you for being here. My question is for the folks who are here on behalf of the Oblates.
You mentioned a few times in your comments about the laws of Europe regarding privacy and so on being an issue. Can you expand on that a bit more, and tell us if, in your judgment, those laws provide an obstacle for the transfer of valuable information to the NCTR? Do we have an obstacle that needs to be addressed, and that we could do some research on to see what international work we could do with our government to try to get the information? Can you comment on how big that issue is, in your view?
Father Jerome: Thank you, senator. Our General Administration, at the very beginning, asked me to consult some lawyers. Actually, there is a person in our administration who deals with these legal issues. He contacted the lawyer to find out whether there were any obstacles.
When Mr. Frogner came and wanted some of these documents to be digitized and sent, we consulted our lawyer to ask if there was any problem with sending these photos and files, but there was no problem. We, then, committed ourselves to continuing with digitization.
I do not know whether there are any issues. So far, we have not come across any issues related to that, but, each time we do any activity, we consult with the lawyer to see whether there are any laws preventing this. So far, we have not come across any difficulties with regard to the digitization and sending these identified photos and documents.
Senator Tannas: Thank you. Archbishop Chatlain, you said that you found some additional information — some lists — in 2021, and you let the NCTR know. You sent them to a third party. Forgive me, I don’t remember the name of where it went, but it had to go somewhere else to get digitized, and they didn’t send it on. You discovered that sometime this fall, and, as of yesterday, those files are now in the hands of the NCTR — is that right?
Archbishop Chatlain: Yes. That’s right, senator.
Senator Tannas: That’s great. Given that you found something that you didn’t think existed before, and passed it along, are you now satisfied that you have found everything that is vital and relevant for the NCTR’s work in your archives?
Archbishop Chatlain: Yes, 99% was there already, which we passed on eight years ago. It was just this little bit. We feel that everything is there.
Maybe there’s a little surprise, but we are absolutely not holding anything back. If we find a little bit, we’ll do exactly the same thing. But, for sure, the vast majority is there — everything that we know of.
Senator Tannas: But if you find something, it won’t take two years to get it to the NCTR?
Archbishop Chatlain: No.
Senator Tannas: Okay, thank you.
Senator Sorensen: Thank you, everybody, for attending today. I will direct my question to Father Jerome, but I would be very curious about Archbishop Chatlain’s comments as well, and I do have another question afterwards for the Archbishop.
The first question is about how it seems — to me — that former residential school staff and administrators are living archives who could have valuable information about the events that took place at these schools, including where sick or injured children may have been sent, as well as what happened to the remains of students who died. I say this because we’ve heard from many that record-holding organizations, even with full access, don’t have the resources to sort through these records in a short period of time, and time is of the essence. Survivors and their family members are aging, and, to put it bluntly, at the current rate, people will continue to die before they find out the truth.
My question is around interviewing living people. Understanding personnel records can be touchy, so having face-to-face interviews with living people — who may remember, for instance, where the school cemetery was located, or what institutions children with tuberculosis may have been transferred to — might help people get their answers quicker. In addition to making archives available, is interviewing living former staff members — to find out what they may know — something that is being, or can be, pursued?
Father Jerome: Thank you, senator. On our behalf, the OMI General Administration and other archival policies say that the private personnel files are allowed to be accessed 25 years after the death of a person. When Mr. Frogner came, our facilitator gave permission for full access, and there weren’t any issues. To your question, interviewing living people depends on the provincial superiors in Canada because they have the full authority over it. Father Warren Brown can help me in this regard.
Warren Brown, Representative of the OMI General Administration, Oblate General Archives: Thank you, senator. Yes, the archives in Rome and the records that we have are very skeletal, as Father Jerome just said. There is basic data about each member, and the vast majority of information is held in Canada. The Canadian provinces and superiors have been working, and are open to doing this and to speaking with the personnel who worked in the residential schools.
Senator Sorensen: Thanks. Archbishop Chatlain, do you have any comment on that — being in Canada, is that a process that is happening?
Archbishop Chatlain: Thanks, Senator Sorensen. I think it’s a very good question. We do have some very elderly sisters and priests who were working in some of these schools, as well as lay staff. There has been a little bit of interviewing, but I think we should work on this sooner with specific questions about particular communities and particular cemeteries. I think that could be helpful.
Senator Sorensen: Thank you. I just think there’s a wealth of information still sitting in people’s voices that would be helpful.
My second question is directed at Archbishop Chatlain. This is the first time I’ve heard about these fundraising efforts. The history that I have is that in 2015, the government agreed to forever discharge Catholic entities from having to pay the rest of what they owed Indigenous communities under the Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement. As I understand it, the original settlement agreement required 48 Catholic entities to pay $79 million in three parts, including an effort to raise $25 million, of which only $4 million was raised. However, I further understand — to your point in your testimony today — that many Catholic organizations, including the Saskatchewan Catholic bishops, are continuing to raise money for reconciliation initiatives.
How is that organized across Canada? Has it been encouraged by national groups like the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, or is it more localized? Can you give us a little more data on how much has been raised to be donated, as well as how the funds are dispersed, and how much has been dispersed?
Archbishop Chatlain: Yes, Senator Sorensen, I would love to pass on that information because I think it’s important. I think everyone was saddened by our lack of response on that. We did contribute $29 million, and we did over $25 million in in-kind service, but our fundraising was not successful at all — that was a sticking point.
A couple of years ago, the Bishops of Canada agreed to create this fund and to commit $30 million over five years toward it. So far — I got an update just a little while ago — $11 million has been raised, and 50 projects have been supported already. The process that we have is that there are regional or diocesan assessment committees for projects, which are staffed by Indigenous peoples so that they have an Indigenous group that looks at local requests. If they want to support them, then they are submitted to the national committee. The national committee is made up of Indigenous peoples as well, and they grant — from this fund — the funds that they are supporting.
Senator Sorensen: Thank you. Much respect for making sure that it’s Indigenous-led in terms of the disbursement of funds.
Archbishop Chatlain: Yes, that was very important.
The Chair: I have a question for the Oblate General Archives. Mr. Frogner located the personnel records of at least 12 Oblate priests convicted of crimes against children forced to attend residential schools. However, he was unable to copy these records due to your privacy policy. Is that true, and, if so, could you please describe your privacy policy regarding personnel records, and what steps you are taking to make this information available?
Father Jerome: Thank you. As far as I know, Mr. Frogner did not have any problems with regard to copying the documents related to these identified persons. I don’t know whether there are any issues outside of the Oblate General Archives, but, at the Oblate General Archives, we have not come across any such issues.
I don’t know if I’m answering your question. Father Brown, perhaps you can enlighten us about it.
Father Brown: Senator, this is the first that I have heard of this. As far as we understood with Mr. Frogner, everything that he had asked for, we had given through the records. He was very satisfied with the visit, and we told him that we would be very happy to have him come back and make another visit, if he would like. I didn’t hear that there were any records that were subject to privacy laws with the European Union, or anything like that.
The Chair: Okay, thank you for that.
Senator Coyle: Thank you to our three witnesses who are here with us today. This is such an important matter, and we really do need your help in getting answers and, where there’s still action required, encouraging you to take further action.
Archbishop Chatlain, my first question is for you. I really appreciated hearing the whole background on what the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops has undertaken — that was helpful — as well as what has been done in the two stages, including the most recent stage that was completed yesterday, in terms of all records being handed over to the NCTR. At the end of your testimony, you mentioned sacramental records. In the same breath, you also mentioned privacy considerations related to some or all of those sacramental records. I imagine those kinds of records held at the parish level — baptism records, communion records and possibly even confirmation records, but in particular last rites, or what used to be called extreme unction; I think it’s called the anointing of the sick today — could be important.
Could you fill us in a little bit more on your thoughts regarding what might be in those records that could be helpful in the search for the truth in order for us to reach reconciliation, and what barriers, if any — or ways of getting that important information — could there be?
Archbishop Chatlain: Thank you, Senator Coyle. I think this is an important one, and it’s why we want to work with the NCTR on the sacramental records — because they are archivists, and they understand some of the sensitivities involved. We are really open to sharing funeral records because they are pretty public already — the information is already there with obituary notices and things like that. It does get more sensitive with baptism records — who the parents are and things like that. We have to be a little more cautious around there, but the NCTR group knows how to redact the records, so they are able to keep the records in an appropriate way. We are hoping that some of that can be helpful to them.
An example would be that Cross Lake is trying to identify their unmarked graves and the children who died while at residential schools. There was a list that they had, and the Oblate sisters who had worked there used the diaries of the sisters — which they had in French, and were handwritten — and they took out all the names that they could find of students mentioned anywhere in those diaries. Then, we took our sacramental records, and we cross-referenced them. Some of the names were in ours and some were not, and we had some that were new. That would be an example of us trying to use our sacramental records to help with forming the list.
Senator Coyle: Thank you for that. I understand the importance of place-based research. I am curious whether there is any kind of comprehensive effort under way, trying to link those sacramental records to the big picture of what we are trying to find out: Who passed away? Where did they pass away? Where are they buried? That’s one question. My second question is a follow-up to my colleague’s absolutely important question of living archives. We all think it’s a great idea. My question on that is this: Now what’s going to be done? It’s not just that it’s a good idea, or that maybe some ad hoc stuff could go on. Is there something more comprehensive that could happen in a quick way because those people who are still alive are elderly, as all of you have said and are aware? I would like to hear about that as well, if possible.
Archbishop Chatlain: With regard to the sacramental records, I think I would encourage that people continue to contact the local diocese. The diocese, I think, can respond as quickly as possible to that one. To do a national kind of thing would be very challenging.
With regard to living archives, if we could come up with some basic questions that we’d like to ask some of these priests or sisters who are still alive, and tried to have an interview with them, I think that’s possible. But I don’t know who should be leading that. Like you said, we can talk about it, but how do we lead that charge? Could that be under the NCTR? I don’t know.
Senator Coyle: Thank you.
The Chair: I have a follow-up to Senator Coyle’s question as well. This question is for Archbishop Chatlain and Father Brown. Did any of your personnel make statements regarding their role in residential schools to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada, or TRC, and was participation in the TRC encouraged by your organizations?
Archbishop Chatlain: I can go first, if you want, Father Brown. During the TRC, I was a bishop in Yellowknife, so I was even farther north. We participated in a gathering in Inuvik. All of our staff was there, and we all contributed there. I also participated in Saskatoon’s gathering, and in Edmonton — we were all involved. We also made apologies so that formal apologies were offered at that time, too.
Father Brown: Yes, thank you. I am aware that the Oblates did participate in these hearings, but I can’t really tell you the exact number. I do recall that they did speak quite often about participating in different settings in these meetings. They certainly are fully open to continue sharing information.
The Chair: Thank you for that.
Senator D. Patterson: First, I would like to thank all of the witnesses for being here with us. Not everyone has been as forthcoming with requests to appear in this important study that our committee is doing. I do thank you for being here.
I just want to say that having lived in what is now Nunavut for a number of years, I’ve met many Oblate priests, and known of them, and they have done difficult service — in remote locations — that has often been very helpful to the lives of the mostly Inuit population. But there can be bad apples in every barrel. We have even experienced that in the Senate in the past.
I want to ask you about a difficult subject, and I think it is Father Jerome whom I’m probably directing this question to. When we heard from the NCTR, Mr. Frogner told us that he had a list of over a dozen Oblate priests who were convicted of crimes against children forced to attend residential schools. He had located those personnel files in the Rome archives, but was unable to copy the information due to the Oblates’ privacy policy. He understood that the Oblates noted they may enable access to these personnel records. My question is regarding the practice of keeping personnel files sealed — I think it was originally up to 50 years after the death of an Oblate Father or brother — and is there a new policy on the release of personnel files now? In that connection, has the NCTR now been granted access to requested personnel files? Thank you.
Father Jerome: Thank you, senator. Actually, I’m hearing for the first time today that Mr. Frogner said they couldn’t have access to any particular files. When he came here, I provided whatever files he asked for, and, at the end, he expressed his satisfaction. Upon his return, he issued a document saying that he was fully satisfied with his visit to the Oblate General Archives in Rome.
I have not received any information saying that he could not have access to any files. For the first time, I’m hearing about it. I don’t know; maybe it happened outside of our Oblate General Archives. But at the Oblate General Archives, so far I have not heard anything about it from Mr. Frogner or from the NCTR. Thank you.
Senator D. Patterson: My understanding was that his information was about the Oblates’ personnel records, but I am wondering — and you had mentioned 25 years in your earlier testimony — what the current policy is regarding the sealing of personnel files with respect to Oblate Fathers or brothers, please.
Father Jerome: As far as we are concerned, here at the archives in Rome, even though we have this regulation, the Superior General gave permission to be transparent. Provided that the law of the European Union permits, we don’t have any objection, but we have not come across any such difficulty so far.
Senator D. Patterson: That’s good to know. I understand that the Archdiocese of Keewatin-Le Pas website indicates that you have at least one archivist, Father Shantha Gandamalla, and I believe you are an archivist, Father Jerome. Could you describe your archival work and the priorities as they relate to providing access to records for survivors and their families, please?
Archbishop Chatlain: For us, we are a small office, and we don’t have a large staff. Father Gandamalla has several other jobs. He is helped by my secretary and executive administrator Nicole, and we have a volunteer as well. That’s basically our archival work.
In about 2007, we had our archives transferred to the Société historique de Saint-Boniface in Winnipeg because they have former archivists and the ability to maintain the health of the paper and things of our records. Those are down there, so we’ve directed people to Saint-Boniface.
Also, all of our residential school records are with the NCTR, so we direct people to contact the NCTR — as they’ve encouraged us — with some of these requests. If people are coming to us directly, we do what we can as well to respond to individual requests or bands from our area. That’s how we are trying to provide information as best we can.
Senator D. Patterson: Thank you.
The Chair: I will ask a question to all of you. What steps have your organizations taken to help combat residential school denialism among Catholics? I have seen first-hand how prevalent this issue is in church, and how important it is for governments and churches responsible for the Indian residential schools, and other institutions, to be transparent and accountable.
Archbishop Chatlain: It is challenging to sometimes address racism and some of the things that are present in our church as well, but I have been pretty outspoken for many years about the history, and I’ve been blessed to have personal friends who went to residential school. I am able, through their permission, to share their stories. I try to pass on the stories to some of those people to help them understand, maybe, more deeply, and I always encourage them to talk with someone who went to residential school. I say, “Please, talk with them and see what their experience was like, and hear it first-hand.” That’s an ongoing responsibility for us.
The Chair: Thank you, Archbishop Chatlain.
Father Brown: The Oblates are an international congregation, and we cover more than 65 countries. When the news arose about finding these graves, we took a very proactive stance — as part of the General Administration — to inform the whole congregation what this issue means, and the seriousness with the way we are facing it through the Canadian Oblates. At our chapter last year, Father Thorson and the other Canadian Oblates gave a presentation about the situation of the residential schools so that all of the congregation understands the steps that the Oblates are taking in the truth and reconciliation process.
I think that the members of our congregation facing many different justice issues around the world are very conscious of that, and very supportive of the work that the Canadian Oblates are doing, and that the whole congregation wants to do, especially with regard to this situation.
The Chair: Thank you, Father Brown. Father Jerome, do you have anything to add?
Father Jerome: Thank you. Father Brown is a member of the administration, and he knows well the policy of the administration and our congregation, so it’s fine.
Archbishop Chatlain: I was thinking that one of the powerful comments was that Pope Francis came to Canada, and he sat in Maskwacis and in our areas, and made a heartfelt apology. That was a positive step — one step in the works — and all of the Bishops of Canada signed on to a formal apology. When Catholics say, “Well, the Pope and all the bishops have apologized,” it’s because they think there is something we need to apologize for.
Senator Tannas: We appreciate you taking the time to be with us. In regard to what appears to be a misunderstanding between what we heard from Mr. Frogner and what we’ve heard here today, we’ve inserted ourselves into this process, in part, out of sympathy for the NCTR and their frustration over not being able to get certain things done or, in some cases, playing hide-and-seek with other entities. You’ve been very forthcoming here, and we really appreciate it.
If we get some additional information and clarification — that is relevant and continues to highlight that there is a misunderstanding — would you undertake to clear that up, and provide the records that have been asked for and not received? Maybe it’s another one of these telephone issues where the digitization didn’t happen and it’s sitting on somebody’s desk. We will follow up, and if there is something, we will get in touch with you and ask for your undertaking to clear up the matter, as you said happened. Are you comfortable with that?
Archbishop Chatlain: Very. In fact, I would encourage, whether it is the NCTR or other groups, to keep going back to the local bishop, and to keep going back to the local archivist. Often, we have an initial contact, and then we don’t hear for quite some time, so I think it’s important.
Father Jerome: Thank you. The Fathers — our provincial superiors — in Canada are dealing with these directly. In regard to the files that Mr. Frogner identified here at the Oblate General Archives, I took a little time to digitize and send because of the change of administration. But in June of this year, I already handed it over to the Richelieu archives, but the Richelieu archives recently, in the last week, sent me a message saying they have already analyzed these digitized photos, and two sets of documents have been sent to the NCTR very recently. Yesterday, I got information from the archivists of the Richelieu archives that they have analyzed certain documents and sent them. Still, they will be doing the other part — the other sets of photos and documents. Other than that, I’m sorry; our provincial superiors in Canada may deal with it.
Father Brown, did you need to add anything?
Senator Tannas: That’s helpful. And, Father Brown, could you speak specifically to the 12 personnel files that Mr. Frogner spoke to us about?
Father Brown: Yes, senator, we would definitely be very willing to follow up on this, and to find out exactly where this miscommunication has happened, or if, as you said, there is some message that we didn’t receive which we should have received. Yes, we would certainly want to follow up on this. We would be very open to the NCTR communicating with us and to following up on this.
As Father Jerome has mentioned, he invited Mr. Frogner to come back to our archives. We are very open to his return visit, should he choose to do so.
Senator Tannas: Thank you.
Senator Coyle: This is probably more of a question for Archbishop Chatlain. You’ve dealt with many different jurisdictions in Canada previously, and currently you are crossing different provincial borders where you are now. Have there been any issues related to navigating the different jurisdictional frameworks that you’ve encountered in each of those provinces in terms of the recovery of records and transferring them? Is there anything we need to know — that you could share with us — as we try to unpack this whole area of record retrieval? Or maybe there haven’t been any issues there at the jurisdictional level.
Archbishop Chatlain: I think that’s a piece. Sometimes different organizations are asking for records for different reasons, and it’s a little hard to navigate who is asking and for what purpose. Sometimes that gets in the mix.
We are trying to focus on being collaborative in helping. Whether it is in Saskatchewan or Manitoba, we haven’t really found legislation that’s hampered that. It’s more about trying to be sensitive to the privacy of families.
Senator Coyle: Thank you.
The Chair: Does anyone else have a question? If not, the time for this panel is now complete. I wish to again thank our witnesses for joining us today and for providing your testimony. If you wish to make any subsequent submissions, please submit them by email to the clerk within seven days.
(The committee adjourned.)