THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AFFAIRS, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Thursday, October 5, 2023
The Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology met with videoconference this day at 11:30 a.m. [ET] to examine and report on such issues as may arise from time to time relating to social affairs, science and technology generally; and, in camera, to examine and report on such issues as may arise from time to time relating to social affairs, science and technology generally.
Senator Ratna Omidvar (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: I would like to begin by welcoming members of the committee, witnesses and members of the public watching our proceedings.
My name is Ratna Omidvar. I’m a senator from Ontario, and I am the chair of this committee.
I would like to do a roundtable and have senators introduce themselves.
Senator Osler: Good morning. I’m Senator Gigi Osler from Manitoba.
Senator Seidman: I’m Judith Seidman from Montreal, Quebec.
[Translation]
Senator Cormier: Senator René Cormier from New Brunswick.
[English]
Senator Burey: I’m Sharon Burey, a senator for Ontario.
Senator Kutcher: I’m Stan Kutcher from Nova Scotia.
The Chair: Joining us for our first panel, we welcome Tomoya Obokata, the United Nations Human Rights Council Special Rapporteur on Contemporary Forms of Slavery, including its causes and consequences. Thank you, Mr. Obokata, for joining us today, even if it is virtually. At some point, we’ll go back to face-to-face meetings, but this is also very cost‑effective and time efficient.
We have the statement that you made following your recent trip to Canada. In September, this committee also travelled within Canada to New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island on a fact-finding mission as part of our study.
We would welcome your introductory remarks for up to five minutes, which will be followed by questions from the committee.
Tomoya Obokata, Special Rapporteur on Contemporary Forms of Slavery, including its causes and consequences, United Nations Human Rights Council, as an individual: I would like to begin by thanking the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology for inviting me today to provide information.
As the committee members are aware, I visited Canada officially between August 23 and September 6, 2023. I began my mission in Ottawa and visited other locations, including Moncton, Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal.
During my visit, I met over 200 stakeholders, including federal and provincial or territorial government officials, lawmakers, trade unions, civil society organizations, the business community, national and provincial or territorial human rights institutions, workers, as well as victims of contemporary forms of slavery.
In relation to the treatment of migrant workers, I expressed concern over low-wage and agricultural streams of the Temporary Foreign Worker Program as the workers at the higher risk of labour exploitation, which may amount to forced labour or servitude. In this regard, I received first-hand information from a wide variety of sources, including close to 100 migrant workers I met across Canada, with regard to their appalling working conditions, which include excessive working hours, physically dangerous tasks, low wages, no overtime pay, being denied access to health care facilities as well as sexual harassment, intimidation and violence at the hands of their employers and their family. For sectors where employers provide housing, like agriculture, I also received reports of unsanitary or unsafe living conditions, lack of privacy and of gender-sensitive housing arrangements, and arbitrary restriction on energy use.
Part of the factors facilitating labour exploitation seems to be the closed nature of the Temporary Foreign Worker Program. Many workers told me that they do not report instances of abuse and exploitation due to a fear of unemployment and deportation if they leave their employers. I am aware of open permits for vulnerable workers, but it is a temporary solution, and the process is so bureaucratic and cumbersome, with high evidentiary requirements, that many workers do not take advantage of this in reality. The best way forward, in my view, is to amend the closed nature of the program itself so that migrant workers can change their employers at their own will.
I wish to acknowledge that the federal as well as the provincial and territorial governments have taken steps to strengthen the protection of migrant workers in recent times through legislative and other means. In this regard, they were able to share examples of good practice during my visit. I also believe that a large number of employers do, indeed, observe the existing laws and regulations and protect the rights of migrant workers. However, the fact that migrant workers in various sectors still continue to suffer from labour exploitation clearly suggests that more needs to be done.
Of particular concern is labour inspection. I received information from a wide variety of sources, including migrant workers, that inspections are ineffective for various reasons. Access to justice and remedies also need to be enhanced, as many workers are unaware of reporting mechanisms, which is exacerbated by other issues like language barriers and lack of access to internet.
Finally, I would like to emphasize that migrant workers make vital contributions to Canada’s national economy, yet paths to long-term or permanent residency are extremely limited for most workers in agriculture and other low-wage sectors. I regard this to be discriminatory and would like to recommend that the federal government open the path for long-term or permanent residency for all migrant workers.
Thank you very much, and I’ll be very happy to take your questions.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Obokata.
We will now proceed to questions from my colleagues. Everyone will have five minutes.
Let me kick off with small question to you, Mr. Obokata. You said you met with 200 stakeholders. Did you visit any employer sites?
Mr. Obokata: Not directly, but I was able to meet a large number of migrant workers in secure locations. I do appreciate many migrant workers are fearful of being discovered, for example, by talking to me, so we met at the secure locations.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
The first question goes to Senator Cordy, the deputy chair of the committee.
Senator Cordy: Thank you very much for being here. I read your paper a week or so ago. It was very interesting, and thank you for all the work that you’ve done.
You talked about access justice and remedies as being essential. How do we ensure that migrant workers do have access to justice and to the remedies that you speak about? We’ve heard similar things: that people are very much afraid to come forward, and if you don’t know about it, you can’t remedy it. How do you give confidence to the migrant workers that it is a fair system and that they can disclose and that they will get justice and remedies?
Mr. Obokata: Thank you very much for that, Madam Deputy Chair.
I do believe that raising awareness and access to information is still limited for a number of migrant workers, so they are not even aware that these mechanisms exist. I think that’s a challenge for the federal government as well as provincial or territorial governments.
Now, I’ve learned so many good examples where, for example, certain governments are providing information in a wide variety of languages, but it is wrong to assume that migrant workers have access to these things. I think the channel of communication must be there. Also, again, encourage them to report with confidence and anonymity. Anonymity was another issue, because I’ve heard that sometimes anonymity may not be guaranteed, and, obviously, that is a challenge for the local authorities.
Senator Cordy: Thank you.
In your report, you used the term “contemporary forms of slavery within Canada.” You’re not the first and only witness to speak about that. Could you expand on that and on solutions to that feeling that people would have? In some ways, when I read what you had to say, it certainly made sense. How do we work around that? That’s certainly something that we heard about. You can stay in one place. You’re not able to transfer from one job to another. You’re not even able to transfer within locations owned by the same person who brought you over.
Mr. Obokata: I do believe that, first and foremost, for the employers, awareness-raising about the laws and regulations is extremely important. Under certain circumstances, I’ve also heard that those undocumented migrant workers are also employed by some employers, which clearly is an illegal conduct. Yet, some still do. I think there must be more awareness-raising among employers.
Labour inspection is the key. This is not limited to Canada. I’ve visited other countries, and labour inspection seems to always be one of the issues where it is not regularly conducted. I also heard in the context of Canada that many of these are often pre-announced so employers know exactly when they’re coming, and workers are told to clean their workplaces and housing so it looks spotless when inspectors arrive, or they are sent away for a day so they are not interviewed. Governments must think of creative ways to strengthen the labour inspection.
Exploitation often happens; it’s supply-and-demand dynamics. If we ask ourselves why migrant workers in Canada are being exploited, it is because there’s a strong demand for cheap goods in the country and beyond. I think there is also a need to raise awareness among the general public that these things can be happening in your neighbourhood so they can enhance their understanding of these things so they can try to do something about it. If the workers cannot report, surely the members of the general public can do so in conjunction with civil society, trade unions and so on.
I will stop there. Thank you.
Senator Osler: Thank you, Special Rapporteur, for being here today.
Your report recommended that the Government of Canada regulate streams of the Temporary Foreign Worker Program, including those outside the Seasonal Agricultural Worker Program, “through bilateral agreements with sending countries and permit consular oversight and protection of workers.” Could you share with the committee any successful examples of countries that have implemented similar bilateral agreements? What lessons or best practices can be drawn from their experiences?
Mr. Obokata: Are you asking for examples from other countries?
Senator Osler: Yes. Are there other countries that have similar bilateral agreements in place whose examples and best practices that we could learn from?
Mr. Obokata: There are a number of Western countries, including my own. Japan has a foreign workers program. I’m not sure it’s necessarily a good practice. I think some of the issues seem to be quite common, whether it’s Canada, Japan, the United Kingdom or the United States.
One of the good things I discovered in Canada is that, indeed, there is a strong working relationship between, for example, sending countries from the Caribbean and Mexico and so on and Canada, and close communications between the embassies and between embassies and workers. I think that’s a good practice in Canada. I would like to recommend that to the rest of the world. They need to do a lot more of that. That’s one thing I have discovered.
But even with that oversight and monitoring, there are certain instances of exploitation, which could also happen within the Seasonal Agricultural Worker Program, which, as I discovered, protection and assistance are much more enhanced.
I can’t really share what other countries are doing well. The SAWP program is good in that the protection is much higher compared to the low-wage stream and so on. I think still more needs to be done.
Senator Osler: Thank you for your answer.
Your report expressed concern about various groups affected by contemporary forms of slavery within Canada, groups such as migrant workers, Indigenous peoples, people of African descent, persons with disabilities and formerly incarcerated individuals. Did you find that there were certain groups that were more vulnerable and at higher risk of abuse?
Mr. Obokata: All of the groups that you mention are equally vulnerable to exploitation and abuse because of the existing poverty, inequality and discrimination that these groups have traditionally faced. For example, I had long discussions with Indigenous communities across Canada about the discrimination, poverty and inequality that they’re facing. These are the driving factors for exploitation. That also applies to people of African descent, ethnic minority groups, racialized communities or individuals with disabilities and so on. I think they’re equally vulnerable. Also, for LGBTQI-plus individuals, if they are also abandoned by their family or communities, it puts them at higher risk of exploitation and abuse by a number of individuals and criminal entities.
Senator Osler: Thank you.
The Chair: Mr. Obokata, I have a question along the lines of Senator Osler’s question around best practices or promising practices in other countries. We do have a multilateral organization, the ILO, International Labour Organization. What role should the ILO have in possibly regulating an international flow of migrant workers?
Mr. Obokata: That’s a very good question, Madam Chair.
As you know, one of the good things about ILO is the tripartite structure they have between the government, employers and representatives. I think that is quite fundamental in facilitating constructive dialogue. In terms of protecting workers, yes, I suppose there are other entities such as, for example, the International Organization for Migration. But ILO, as you are well aware, is very good at promoting international labour standards, including for migrant workers, to which Canada is a party. There are monitoring mechanisms of all these obligations from the outside. I would like to see more Canadian actors, civil society, ILO and others, working together to monitor what happens within Canada. I think that is already happening, particularly the trade unions and civil society, but I think more concerted effort is to be encouraged.
Senator Seidman: Mr. Obokata, thank you very much for the End of Mission Statement which you produced following your visit to Canada barely a month ago. I found it very frank, and it raised some extremely important issues.
I’d like to ask you about something you say. You say you
… retain concerns over Canada’s current approach to human rights due diligence for Canadian companies. The annual reporting required under Bill S-211 can promote transparency to some extent; however, there is a risk of this becoming a box ticking exercise where companies simply submit the same statement every year, as has been reported in other jurisdictions.
Then you point to the “lack of a monitoring mechanism.” What do you think this monitoring mechanism could be, given that we lack one?
Mr. Obokata: Thank you, senator.
I think there are different ways. It is obviously difficult to monitor every single company because in Canada, compared to other jurisdictions, a larger number of companies will come under this particular legislation. Again, I do appreciate Canada’s approach of encouraging companies to do these things on a voluntary basis. Oftentimes what works is that the government works closely with civil society trade unions so they can also work as a check and balance. If there’s a registry and website, there has to be someone at the federal level checking whether the statements are accurate and whatnot, but governments can receive information from a wide variety of sources. I would like to see more cooperation during that approach by including all of these, including workers potentially themselves. That model seems to be the best. The inclusive approach is to be encouraged.
Senator Seidman: That’s interesting. Sorry, I might have missed it. Did you say it already exists, that kind of monitoring mechanism that you referred to?
Mr. Obokata: It’s very difficult. Aside from Canada, there is only —
Senator Seidman: I mean elsewhere.
Mr. Obokata: Therese hasn’t been an established committee that oversees these things. I haven’t heard of that. But that’s something where Canada can take leadership in establishing an intergovernmental multi-stakeholder monitoring committee where you share responsibilities and so on. Again, that type of independent mechanism would be wonderful.
Senator Seidman: Related to that, one of your recommendations, your key recommendations, is to expand the remit of the Canadian Ombudsperson for Responsible Enterprise, CORE, to include all sectors and give her the relevant powers to compel companies to provide evidence and cooperate. Again, what would that evidence be? Does it go back to this kind of registry you’re talking about? Would there be standardized reporting requirements, inspections and audits? How would you compel companies? What kind of evidence would you ask them for?
Mr. Obokata: That’s good question.
As I understand it, the federal government is still in the process of providing those guidelines. What I’ve heard from the business community is that they are so uncertain. They do not even know what to include in this information or the statement. Clear guidance needs to be provided. That should include the steps that each company is taking to promote human rights due diligence, how they’re identifying and mitigating risks, how they are communicating and coordinating with supply chains in Canada and beyond, and what are the monitoring mechanisms? Is that internal oversight or external oversight that may be more effective than the internal ones? All of this is relevant information in promoting due diligence and in preventing labour exploitation. I would like to see that information included in detail and regularly updated, and potentially in the following year, perhaps, also include information about the outcome of independent oversight and what they have found. This type of information would be desirable.
Senator Seidman: Thank you.
The Chair: Mr. Obokata, can I get a clarification from you? The CORE ombudsperson is mandated to review complaints about possible human rights abuses by Canadian companies when those companies work outside Canada in the mining, oil and gas sectors. Am I hearing your recommendation that the mandate of the ombudsperson be expanded to include an oversight of Canadian companies working in Canada in various sectors?
Mr. Obokata: To begin with, companies operating abroad is a good starting point. I do believe that, and not just to include agriculture and manufacturing and so on. If that model is successful, there may be scope to expand, but there’s only so much an ombudsperson can do. More realistic is to stick to the general mandate of companies operating abroad, but allowing her office to examine various relevant sectors.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator Kutcher: Thank you very much, Mr. Obokata. I appreciate very much you being here.
I’m going to focus on a few things which are concerning. Your report identified a number of problems the Temporary Foreign Worker Program has, and our study also found similar problems. There is no question that we need to root out all abuses. You have given us some excellent remedies.
However, I want to focus on what your report did not mention. There was no mention in your report of temporary foreign workers who had positive experiences in the program. There was no mention in your report of employers who are exemplary and doing a really good job with this program. There was no mention that some temporary foreign workers live in good conditions. Many have good access to health care. Many have brought their own families here to Canada and have achieved permanent residency. Many have settled in remote communities in Canada, rural communities, and have revitalized those communities in the churches, in the schools, in the economic base.
I’ve heard from a number of Canadians that your report has given the impression that all temporary foreign workers are being treated horribly and that all are having their human rights ignored because there was no mention in your report of those who are having an appropriate and positive experience with the program.
Our study, which included visiting rural farming communities and seafood-processing sites, found that there were some temporary foreign worker employers who were clearly not doing what they needed to do and there were some abuses, and we need to deal with them, but we also found the opposite. There were some that were very positive, with positive outcomes for temporary foreign workers.
I want to ask you this: How many temporary foreign workers who had positive experiences did you interview? How many sites where there were exemplary employers did you visit? How many communities that have well integrated and welcomed temporary foreign workers did you visit and learn about their experiences? Finally, what percentage of temporary foreign workers in Canada are experiencing abuses — abuses that we need to stop — compared to those who are actually doing very well?
Mr. Obokata: Thank you very much for that.
In terms of numbers of workers with positive experiences, I did speak to some of those workers, yes, but I did not visit, for example, farms or factories due to lack of time, first of all, and also due to concern for the migrant workers who may well be identified. I do take your point, yes. As I said in my opening statement, I do acknowledge that a large number of employers do actually observe the laws and regulations. I’ve also spoken to even the civil society and others who suggested that there are a large number of companies who do protect the rights of workers. So I have no doubt about that.
My statement, senator, is initial findings. My report next year will be twice as long as that. I am certainly going to include a wide variety of good examples done by various stakeholders. That is extremely important to my mandate.
Senator Kutcher: With all due respect, Special Rapporteur, when you make a report that is public and rightly criticizes — I want to thank you for bringing out those issues — but is unbalanced, doesn’t look at the whole picture, paints this country in a very negative light, when you already have information, as you just told us, that you didn’t put into the report about positive experiences, I want to ask you why in this report you didn’t mention those positive experiences and instead gave Canadians a very prejudicial and biased perspective of this program.
Mr. Obokata: There was no intention for that. Certainly, I do take your point. There’s so much information that I can include in that initial statement. I do acknowledge various good practices not just in the Temporary Foreign Worker Program, but in other respects. I do certainly try to reach out to the business community. I have tried to contact them. Some did respond, which I met. Other business communities did not even reply. I did my utmost to reach out to the businesses and employers as much as I can in different places that I visited.
Senator Kutcher: With due respect, Special Rapporteur, those are excuses. They’re not explanations.
The bottom line is that this report contains none of the good things that you have told this committee that you have found. This report only focuses on the negative things. We are very concerned and seized with addressing all the negative things, absolutely, and we thank you for bringing them forward, but don’t you, as a United Nations rapporteur, have at least a moral obligation to report on everything that you have found?
Mr. Obokata: Yes, certainly. That’s what I intend to do for the official report.
Senator McPhedran: Thank you, Special Rapporteur, for being with us today.
I want to refer to a section of your report. There are two paragraphs, but just to introduce it, it’s the paragraph that begins:
The Special Rapporteur is seriously concerned that anti‑trafficking rhetoric and implementation of anti‑trafficking efforts have had a negative impact on the human rights of sex workers who are not trafficked or exploited in Canada due to a conflation between sex trafficking and sex work that stakeholders report is sometimes intentional.
You go on to elaborate on that point. You don’t cite any particular groups, but it looks like you share the conclusion that the situation is made worse by the Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act, which has criminalized the purchase of sexual services. Generally speaking, this is seen as an adoption of what is sometimes called the Nordic model, which has been in Canada for a number of years.
I understand if you do not want to name specific people, but I would very much like to know, as someone who has worked extensively with Indigenous women on this issue, did you speak to any of the Indigenous organizations led by Indigenous women that actually are very supportive of the Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act? I wonder whether you’ve had a chance to have any kind of a conversation with them on this point.
The Chair: I will allow that question. It is outside the ambit of our study. However, let’s give the Special Rapporteur an opportunity to answer it and then we will pivot back.
Mr. Obokata: Thank you.
Yes, I did meet with Indigenous women’s communities in various parts of Canada. I did discuss issues such as human trafficking in the context of whether Indigenous women and girls could potentially be victims of trafficking and sexual exploitation, but we did not have a direct conversation about the act itself, its potential benefits and things like that. Again, in every single city, we met with representatives of sex workers, sex workers’ organizations or sex workers themselves, raising various concerns about not necessarily legislation, which is one part of it, but other issues have been raised by them.
Senator McPhedran: Just to clarify, this reference in your report captures temporary foreign workers as well, for whom there’s specific reference, so I think there is some relevance here.
In addition to that, if you did meet with Indigenous women who are very concerned about trafficking in Canada — I come from Manitoba, which has the largest urban Indigenous population in Canada and, arguably, in North America. I know that the agencies that are led by Indigenous women in Manitoba also give shelter to temporary foreign workers who find themselves engaged in sex work. I hope that, if it’s possible, you will be open to more information from their perspective because they helped to draft the legislation that is in place in Canada, and there’s a highly disproportionate number of Indigenous young people who are trafficked in this country.
Mr. Obokata: Thank you very much for that.
Yes, of course. I just presented the information based on what I’ve heard from a wide variety of sources, but certainly for the full report, you’ll receive additional information. I’ve said as much to all stakeholders that I have met.
[Translation]
Senator Cormier: Welcome, Special Rapporteur.
I’ll start by saying that I agree with Senator Kutcher’s questions about your report being unbalanced. Certainly in the course of our work, we’ve heard a lot of disturbing testimony, and we’ve taken note of that. Personally, I found some of the testimony very upsetting.
I’d like to ask you pretty basic question, and I hope you’ll pardon my ignorance. When you observe things, at what point do you decide to call what you’re seeing slavery?
I’m not questioning your competency, I’m just trying to understand. Basically, what kind of rubric do you have and when do you decide that certain working conditions constitute slavery, as you identified it in your report?
[English]
Mr. Obokata: Thank you very much, senator. I think that’s an excellent question.
It’s oftentimes difficult to distinguish between labour exploitation, forced labour, servitude and slavery. Slavery is the most severe form of control exercised over individuals so that the affected persons feel that they cannot escape. There are no other means than to oblige with the employers. Their movement has been restricted. They’re confined in a place and forced to work long hours with minimal pay. This may amount to slavery. I’m not suggesting that is widespread in Canada at all. There is labour exploitation, and if it becomes involuntary, then it becomes forced labour. If the degree of control moves up one way or another, that becomes servitude and slavery. Slavery is the most severe form of not necessarily labour exploitation but exercise of control over individuals. Individuals are treated as if they are the property of the owner.
[Translation]
Senator Cormier: To what extent do the concerns you identified align with Canada’s obligations under international agreements and conventions? What is the direct connection and the federal government’s consequent responsibility to act in accordance with those international conventions with respect to what we’re discussing here?
[English]
Mr. Obokata: Thank you.
As you are well aware, senator, yes, Canada is a party to a number of international labour and human rights instruments. Canada is under clear obligation to prohibit forced labour, servitude and slavery. There’s no question about that. As part of that, Canada also has to protect victims and prevent these practices through legislative and other means.
As I have said in my preliminary findings, Canada has been taking steps in this regard. There’s legislation in place to prohibit, prosecute and punish, but enforcement of it seems to be an issue, such as labour inspection, prosecution and punishment. I think there must be more resources put into these areas.
[Translation]
Senator Cormier: One topic we didn’t address directly in our missions, but which you talked about, is 2SLGBTQI+ communities. Can you give me some specific examples of modern-day slavery associated with those communities?
[English]
Mr. Obokata: They do face discrimination in school and in their communities, even from their families. When they are disowned by their family, they have nowhere else to go. Many of them become homeless. One report I published this year is on homelessness, and there are many LGBTQI+ individuals. If they are homeless, they are more likely to be exploited sexually or in other ways. I discovered in some instances, perhaps in Canada but also in different parts of the world, that this problem seems to be quite similar, even in the United States, the U.K. and so on. The pattern seeps to be quite similar in that regard for LGBTQI+ individuals.
[Translation]
Senator Cormier: Thank you.
[English]
Senator Burey: Thank you so much for being here.
I also reviewed your report, Mr. Obokata. I am looking at your recommendations regarding the human rights of migrants. My questions will be focused on the Temporary Foreign Worker Program. One of your recommendations was to regulate the Temporary Foreign Worker Program, including those outside of the SAWP, with bilateral agreements. We’ve heard a lot about that from other witnesses.
Yesterday we heard from economists, however, that we don’t have a labour shortage in Canada and that we, in fact, are depressing wages by allowing the rapid expansion of this program, and because there’s a lack of infrastructure that would be needed to support workers — for example, health care, social services and housing — this is probably leading to some of the abuses.
In a system-design kind of response, should Canada be limiting the Temporary Foreign Worker Program? Would that be a recommendation? Should we have some guardrails to ensure we’re not inviting international workers when we don’t have the system to support them?
Mr. Obokata: That’s an excellent question, and perhaps it’s difficult to answer. I can’t say for sure that there are shortages in different places, but the fact that the migrant workers are here, the fact that the government has all these bilateral agreements with all these temporary foreign workers, suggests that there are shortages in certain sectors.
There’s nothing wrong in bringing foreign workers where there is an aging population with many Canadian nationals who may not be willing to engage in certain jobs in that regard, but if they are here, I think they are entitled to the same rights and entitlements as Canadian nationals. This is where inequality exists, in my view, but this is not just a Canadian problem. I’m sure that happens in other countries where they receive migrants. But I wouldn’t say stop receiving. Do receive migrants, but do so in a more humane way to ensure their rights are protected.
Senator Burey: Thank you.
The Chair: Mr. Obokata, thank you so much for being with us today. Since this is a global issue in countries of aging populations, the shortage of essential workers, it would be most welcome if our multilateral institutions put out proposals with guardrails and monitoring. I thank you for your presence and your report. We look forward to your final report next year.
Mr. Obokata: Thank you very much.
The Chair: Colleagues, this brings us to the end of this session. We will suspend briefly to go in camera.
(The committee continued in camera.)