Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Finance
Issue 1 - Evidence - December 11, 2015
OTTAWA, Friday, December 11, 2015
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met this day at 8:32 a.m. for the election of the chair and consideration of a draft agenda (future business).
[English]
Shaila Anwar, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, I'd like to inform you that Senator Day is no longer a member of this committee. As such, it is my duty to inform you that we will proceed to the election of a chair. I'm ready to receive nominations to that effect.
Senator Eaton: I nominate Senator Smith.
Senator Campbell: I second it.
Ms. Anwar: It's moved by the Honourable Senator Eaton that the Honourable Senator Smith do take the chair of this committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms. Anwar: The motion is carried.
Senator Smith, you can take the chair.
Senator L. Smith (Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: Can we have nominations for the deputy chair position, please?
Senator Mockler: I will nominate Mr. Larry Campbell.
The Chair: Are there any other nominations? Does everyone agree?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Congratulations, senator.
We have a few agenda items. If you want to dispense as we get into them, just say "dispense.''
The first motion concerns the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. Do we have a mover?
Senator Campbell: I so move.
The Chair: Senator Campbell.
Do we need a seconder?
Ms. Anwar: No.
The Chair: Is everyone all right in terms of the verbiage?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Next is a motion to publish committee proceedings. Can we have an individual to move that, please?
Senator Marshall: I so move.
The Chair: Senator Marshall.
Next is the authorization to hold meetings and to receive evidence when quorum is not present.
Senator Eaton: I so move.
The Chair: Senator Eaton, thank you very much.
Next is research staff. Can we have a mover?
Senator Campbell: So moved.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Campbell.
Authority to commit funds and certify accounts: Can we have a mover, please?
Senator Marshall: I so move.
The Chair: Senator Marshall.
Travel: Can we have someone initiate the travel motion? Senator Mockler, just to make sure we have a balance on our list.
Designation of members travelling on committee business: May we have a mover, please?
Senator Eaton: I so move.
The Chair: Senator Eaton.
Travelling and living expenses of witnesses: May we have a mover, please?
Senator Marshall: I so move.
The Chair: Senator Marshall.
Broadcasting: May we have a mover? Senator Mockler.
Time slot for regular meetings: We don't need a mover. That is Tuesday at 9:30 to 11:30, and Wednesday 6:45 to 8:45. Since the meals have been eliminated, we will have outstanding snacks.
[Translation]
Which means that everyone will be able to eat well, but not too much. You will be in shape after this meeting because you are going to be hungry.
[English]
Other business: I'd like to suggest to our group that we organize more pre-meetings for our group, and we'll make sure we send notices out. They will be short. I'll make sure that coffee is provided. The objective is to get more interaction amongst the total group.
One of the things that I believe in as we move forward is the fact that, whether you're a Liberal, Conservative, NDP, whatever you are in terms of your political persuasion, we've been very good in terms of non-partisanship. I recognize there's partisanship on certain issues because that's the way politics is. However, the objective is to make sure that we're well-informed, coordinated, and we can maximize the impact that we have in dealing with various departments of government.
The second objective is I'd like to ask each of you to think about a study that we could do. Our last study was with cross-border tariffs, etcetera, which seemed to be a positive study. The problem we had is we didn't get as much exposure because we didn't position it properly. But I would like to ask you for recommendations for a study, which we'll discuss amongst ourselves, and then we'll check with the powers to be. Hopefully we would have some support.
One of the things I would expect you to do would be to talk to Finance and to ask them if there are other issues they feel are important so that we can have a perspective from everyone. Is that all right?
Senator Eaton: I agree with you completely, Mr. Chair.
We've all sat here for a couple of years now and looked at our very able public service who can't or don't always answer our questions. It might be interesting to get a deputy minister or a minister, somebody who actually has to be accountable. Because you'll say, "Where's that $45 million going?'' "Well, I'm not quite sure, but we're building and we're looking at collecting data.'' They're very skilled. They're doing their job. They're not there to promote or to create headlines, but it's not always very useful for us when we only have public service witnesses. So I would like the committee to consider asking a deputy minister, at least, if not a minister, occasionally.
The Chair: Excellent.
Senator Marshall: One of the things I'd like to suggest is that very early during our term, if we would have somebody to come in to explain to us the relationship between the budget, the estimates, public accounts, Supplementary Estimates (A), (B), (C), whatever. I find that there are so many financial documents coming forward to the committee that I'd like to have somebody come in and tell us how they all link up so that we can follow what's happening financial-wise from cradle to grave. We had done that six years ago, but our membership on the committee has now changed. I think that will be worthwhile.
The Chair: That's an excellent suggestion because we've been fortunate.
[Translation]
Senator Hervieux-Payette, you know that the government puts forward a calendar once a year so that we can truly understand the nuances.
[English]
It's tough for people who have not been in Finance before to understand the flow between the different quarters of the year and when Supplementary Estimates (A), (B) and (C) come out. It will be helpful. We'll make sure that we do that.
[Translation]
Senator Bellemare: Given what Senator Marshall was saying, I would like us to look at the public accounts, not in five meetings, but maybe only one. We are moving through the whole cycle of spending and forecasts, we never look at things like the financial impact and all of that. I would like us to have an overall picture of the cycle by studying the public accounts document, as the House of Commons does. Perhaps we would learn something as we move forward when our meetings resume.
The Chair: Thank you for that suggestion. Just before you arrived, we were asking the senators to think about one or two topics that would be important for us to study. Shall we suggest public accounts?
Senator Bellemare: Public accounts. I would also suggest a second topic, because I think it is a study that comes under this committee. In the context of modernizing the Senate, we have work to do in getting closer to our provinces and regions.
It was announced in the Speech from the Throne that there will be changes to the Canada pension plan and the Quebec pension plan this year. Data are needed for that. Everyone knows that the approval of at least seven provinces and two-thirds of the population is required to make changes to these contributory public pension plans. Not 50percent of the population but two-thirds.
With that in mind, I think there is something to consider. I have been looking at this matter for a long time, and I am convinced that improvements could be made to these plans.
It might be interesting to do a study in which we could meet with the provinces to hear their thoughts on this at the local level and speak with them when we receive the bill. There is strong interest in this in Quebec. Coalitions have been organized, and all kinds of issues have been debated, particularly intergenerational equity and risk sharing. The new plans in this area are less indexed to the cost of living than the economy. Some countries have made these changes. The risk is being shared between generations. We do not know what the future holds. One thing is certain: the situation is not what it was in the 1960s and 1970s, when growth and productivity were high.
So we need to make changes to our plans to prevent future generations from being crushed and to ensure that people who contribute receive a pension that protects their quality of life. A rate of 25percent of the average industrial wage is very low. It should be raised.
I know that this comes under the finance committee, and it would be interesting to study it. At the same time, we will be able to get closer to our regions, which would be a nice little trip for the finance committee.
The Chair: Could you put the details down on paper?
Senator Bellemare: Absolutely.
The Chair: A specific format, for example, in paragraphs, in the form of articles.
Senator Bellemare: Perfect.
The Chair: Are there any other issues or topics? Senator Mockler?
Senator Mockler: That is what I was going to suggest. Could you present this project in a way that will not create a conflict with the terms of reference we give the committee?
The Chair: That is right.
Senator Bellemare: Do we have official terms of reference?
Senator Mockler: As we move forward, it will be doing financial analysis of the data. As the chair just said, the committee was given the topic of cross-border tariffs as a term of reference and had done a study on it.
Senator Bellemare: Right.
Senator Mockler: That is how it could be done.
The Chair: At the same time, as I said earlier, I would like everyone's comments. Then, we will sit down together and prioritize the suggestions. We will have to check the terms of reference to see whether we will be able to do these studies.
[English]
We can move forward with that, if that's okay with everyone.
Senator Mockler: I would like to add to what Senator Marshall said.
Mr. Chair, the officials are professionals; I don't doubt that. However, we were asking for graphs of what's happening with the federal government and the provinces. I'm on record as asking to get those graphs, and I have to say that I have not received too many.
The Chair: That is a good point.
Shaila is our clerk, and we have our two folks who are helping us in terms of reporting.
[Translation]
We have a veteran with very impressive hair. We also have a new person. Does everyone know each other?
Sylvain Fleury, Analyst, Library of Parliament: My name is Sylvain Fleury. I have worked with the committee for almost six years now. I am a CPA.
[English]
I also have a masters in taxation. Accounting and taxation is my main field.
The Chair: That's okay. As Senator Campbell would say, it's not your fault.
[Translation]
Alex Smith, Analyst, Library of Parliament: My name is Alex Smith. I have worked for the Library of Parliament since 2005.
[English]
Before that, I worked at the Office of the Auditor General, so I have some knowledge of the audit process. I have some knowledge of the estimates process as well. I just wrote a publication explaining that for parliamentarians.
The Chair: To assure you that this young man had nothing to do with review of your expenses.
We're still a little gun-shy, are we?
Senator Campbell, did you have a point?
Senator Campbell: In follow-up to Senator Mockler, I've never been on this committee before, but I find continually that people appear before our committees and we ask them for something and we don't get it. I actually think it's more our fault than theirs, because I think that when we do a follow-up, if they do not come forward, then we're in the position of bringing them back here and having a little chat with them. I think this happens all the time on all committees, where we say we'd like this to be followed up or we would like this information.
Senator Eaton: We need to give a deadline.
Senator Campbell: Yes. In keeping with our new-found roles, I think it's responsible on our part to put a deadline and to follow up on it, because I believe that sometimes there's a sense within government that if we don't hear from them or if we don't push them, then "We don't have to do it.'' One of the things that I'm determined to do over the next four years is to make sure that we are following up and we are making sure that the government is listening to us and paying attention to what we say.
Senator Eaton: It would be nice if they took us seriously.
Senator Campbell: That's probably a better way of putting it.
The Chair: Time is of the essence. I would like to suggest, if it's okay with everyone, that we make that an agenda item that we'll deal with every day when we start our meetings. Would that be okay?
Senator Marshall: Yes.
The Chair: The last point at this particular juncture is that I'd like to recommend that we have Mr. Percy Mockler on the steering committee.
Senator Eaton: Can I nominate Percy?
The Chair: Would you, please?
Senator Campbell: I second.
The Chair: Senator Campbell seconds the motion.
Senator Mockler, you will be on the steering committee.
If there are no other matters to raise, I look forward to working with each and every one of you. I've had a chance to work with some of you directly before. Our objective is that we have a very strong team and we continue to move Finance forward. I think it will be very interesting. We're past the days of how many FTEs you've cut and how much you've cut off your budget. We're doing more than that. I really look forward to the opportunity of working together.
(The committee adjourned.)