Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Finance
Issue No. 67 - Evidence - May 22, 2018 (morning meeting)
OTTAWA, Tuesday, May 22, 2018
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met this day at 9:30 a.m. to examine Main Estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2019.
Senator Percy Mockler (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, my name is Percy Mockler, senator from New Brunswick and chair of the committee. I wish to welcome all of those who are with us in the room and viewers across the country who may be watching on television or online. As a reminder to those watching, the committee hearings are open to the public and also available online at sencanada.ca.
Now I would like honourable senators to introduce themselves.
[Translation]
Senator Pratte: André Pratte from Quebec.
Senator Moncion: Lucie Moncion from Ontario.
[English]
Senator Marshall: Elizabeth Marshall, Newfoundland and Labrador.
Senator Eaton: Nicky Eaton, Ontario.
Senator R. Black: Rob Black, Ontario.
The Chair: Thank you.
I would also like to recognize the clerk of the committee, Gaëtane Lemay, and our two analysts. We have a new analyst this morning, Shaowei Pu, and also Alex Smith, who team up to support the work of this committee. Thank you very much.
Honourable senators and members of the viewing public, the mandate of this committee is to examine matters relating to federal estimates, generally, as well as government finance.
[Translation]
Today, we begin our consideration of the expenditures set out in the Main Estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2019, which were referred to this committee on April 18.
[English]
This morning, we will hear from four departments and one agency about their requests for funding from the Canadian public.
In the first hour, we welcome, first, from Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, Daniel Mills, Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Finance; and Louis Dumas, Director General, Domestic Network, Operations.
Then from the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, we have before us Shereen Benzvy Miller, Deputy Chairperson, Refugee Protection Division; and Paula Thompson, Assistant Deputy Chairperson, Refugee Appeal Division.
Finally, from the Canada Border Services Agency, we welcome Jonathan Moor, Vice-President, Chief Financial Officer, Comptrollership Branch; and Jacques Cloutier, Vice-President, Operations Branch.
I have been informed that Mr. Mills, Ms. Benzvy Miller and Mr. Moor will make introductory remarks and comments. Then we will proceed with questions from the senators. At this point, the chair will recognize Mr. Mills to be followed by Ms. Benzvy Miller and Mr. Moor.
Mr. Mills, the floor is yours.
[Translation]
Daniel Mills, Assistant Deputy Minister, Chief Financial Officer, Finance, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada: Thank you, Mr. Chair. As you mentioned, my name is Daniel Mills and I am the Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada. I am here today with my colleague Louis Dumas, Director General, Domestic Network.
[English]
We are pleased to be here today on behalf of IRCC to discuss the 2018-19 Main Estimates.
[Translation]
Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada’s budgetary Main Estimates for 2018-19 total more than $2.3 billion, which represents a net increase of $708 million from the previous year’s Main Estimates.
The most significant components of this increase include, first, funding of $287.9 million for both the 2017 and 2018 immigration levels plans.
[English]
In October 2016, the government approved a target of 300,000 admissions in 2017, 2018 and 2019, which resulted in an additional funding of $218.9 million in 2018-19 to achieve this target.
[Translation]
In October 2017, the government approved a historic multi-year immigration levels plan, with targets now increasing to 310,000 in 2018, 330,000 in 2019 and 340,000 in 2020. This multi-year plan required additional funding of $69 million for the current year.
Second, there are increased draws on the accumulated surpluses of the passport program revolving fund, totalling $236.6 million, as a result of planned decreases in passport application volumes due to the 2013 introduction of the 10-year passport. The passport program finances activities through the fees charged for its services. Program funds are placed in a revolving fund, which has a continuing non-lapsing authority from Parliament, over a 10-year business cycle.
Third, we are forecasting increased entitlements to Quebec, totalling $112 million, related to the funding formula in the Canada-Quebec Accord. The amount to be paid to Quebec to support settlement and integration services in that province is calculated annually under the terms of the accord, using a year-over-year escalator that has two variables: the increase in total federal expenditures and the percentage year-over-year increase of non-francophone immigrants that settle in Quebec.
Fourth, there is increased funding for incremental costs to the interim federal health program, totalling $89.8 million. This funding addresses incremental costs under the interim federal health program, related to increases in eligible recipients and asylum-seekers who will require healthcare benefits until their status is determined and/or they leave the country.
[English]
I would be pleased to answer any questions about these amounts, but I know the committee is especially interested in issues related to irregular migration. Let me begin by outlining our current resources actually related to this issue.
[Translation]
In the recent Budget 2018, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada received $17 million in funding to support our asylum system. This translates into resources to process additional asylum claims per year. The major contributor to this is irregular migration. In the first four months of 2018, we have seen an increase of asylum claims, compared to the same period in 2017. From the beginning of January to the end of April last year, there were 2,479 claims. This year there were 7,613. These numbers are unprecedented and cause challenges to resources. As well, their impact is being felt by other jurisdictions, with the most pressing concern being temporary housing. Since 2017, we have worked productively with the provincial and territorial governments to address this. We are aware that the province of Quebec has received a disproportionate number of irregular arrivals.
[English]
They have asked the federal government for compensation in that regard, and to date we continue to discuss with Quebec. Moving ahead, the government will continue to communicate to migrants that making a non-funded claim does not grant you an extended stay in Canada.
[Translation]
We are looking closely at all aspects of the current system to ensure that we improve its productivity, where possible.
I hope this information will assist the committee in its deliberations. I would be happy to take all your questions.
[English]
Shereen Benzvy Miller, Deputy Chairperson, Refugee Protection Division, Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada: Thank you for inviting us. I am joined by Paula Thompson, Assistant Deputy Chairperson of the Refugee Appeal Division.
We appreciate the opportunity to discuss the Main Estimates in general and, in particular, the additional resources earmarked for the Immigration and Refugee Board. The Main Estimates for the IRB for 2018-19 are $133.3 million and $99.9 million, which will be allocated for immigration and refugee cases; $33.4 million will be for internal services. This funding will be used towards our two key priorities for this fiscal year, which are limiting the growth of the refugee determination backlog and the elimination of the backlog for immigration appeals.
[Translation]
Overall, the rate of increase in allocations to the IRB for 2018-19 shows a net increase of $6.2 million, or 5 per cent more than the total in last year’s Main Estimates. This is the result of increased funding for adjustments to compensation and to support the annual increase of immigration to Canada. The IRB has been under considerable pressure for some time because of the increasing number of deferred asylum claims and the resulting increased backlog. This pressure has increased enormously in the last 16 months, with the increase in the number of people crossing the border to enter Canada between points of entry and then making an asylum claim.
[English]
Referrals rose from 16,000 in 2015 to 23,000 in 2016, and then to about 47,000 in 2017, representing a significant growth in intake over the last two years. So far in 2018 we’ve received 12,600 claims, of which approximately 43 per cent are from people who crossed into Canada between ports of entry.
The pending inventory at the Refugee Protection Division, or the RPD, as of the end of April 2018 was 55,359, an increase of 92 per cent over the previous year.
But over the last year we have taken measures to be as strategic as possible with our approaches to case management within existing resources. We have been making greater use of a short hearing process, allowing more hearings onto our schedules by matching case complexity with the expected time needed for a hearing.
We have also expanded our use of the expedited process, involving a paper review of manifestly well-founded claims and acceptance of these claims without the need for a hearing where security screening is confirmed and the member reaches a positive decision on the merits of the claim.
In addition, we have taken greater advantage of countries’ specialization on the part of our members, an approach that obviously yields efficiency gains.
We also improved our scheduling approach, primarily by scheduling the oldest cases first. As these cases seem to be more ready than some newer cases, we are seeing fewer postponements, resulting in more finalization of cases.
The new approach to scheduling also includes a robust and focused response to the volume of refugee claims made by people crossing the border between ports of entry. The approach balances hearing claims in the order in which they were received with achieving case management efficiency while also addressing program integrity concerns as they arise.
Last year, the board reallocated internal resources to establish a focused legacy task force to hear the remaining cases from pre-December 2012 which were still pending before the RPD. These ongoing efforts are showing strong results. We’ve increased the number of refugee claims finalized by approximately 40 per cent over this past year.
At this time, the board projects it will finalize up to 2,500 refugee protection claims a month, or 30,000 claims per year. But while the IRB has introduced these efficiency measures to increase its output, these have not been able to keep pace with the high intake rate of new claims. The RPD intake for 2017-18 was 52,096, close to double its funded capacity.
The pending inventory of the Refugee Appeal Division, or the RAD, is also increasing. At the end of April 2018, the RAD had 4,859 appeals pending, which was an increase of 113 per cent over the previous 12 months.
With the additional funding, we project that in 2018-19 we can achieve an additional 8,000 finalizations at the RPD and 1,200 finalizations at the RAD; and in 2019 and 2020, a further 9,000 finalizations at the RPD and almost 2,000 at the RAD.
[Translation]
If additional funds are not allocated, it will be difficult to respond to the growing workload. The current backlog of refugee cases will continue to grow, which will cost all levels of government more because people will be waiting longer for a decision on their file. Although we have not yet received this funding, we are ready to move forward. The priority is staffing, including hiring new RPD members and the support employees they need, as well as identifying the new RAD members appointed by order-in-council.
[English]
Essential to maintaining public confidence in Canada’s refugee determination system is ensuring expeditious and fair decision making while building flexibility and responsiveness into our case management and scheduling practices. This additional funding would allow us to address not only the growing number of irregular migration cases but also the overall caseload of the IRB in a way that is efficient, expedient and fair.
I hope this overview is helpful, and we look forward to taking your questions.
The Chair: Thank you.
Mr. Moor, please.
Jonathan Moor, Vice-President, Chief Financial Officer, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency: Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good morning to all members of the committee.
I have with me today my colleague Mr. Jacques Cloutier, who is Vice-President of Operations Branch.
I will keep my remarks brief and limited to an overview of the CBSA’s Main Estimates for 2018-19, followed by some information on how the agency will be funded to respond to irregular migration at Canada’s border.
In 2018-19, the agency is seeking $1,810 million in the Main Estimates, which represents a small net increase of $48.6 million over the previous year to cover a range of new activities. This is comprised of $1,442 million under vote 1 operating expenditures, $198 million under vote 5 capital expenditures and $170 million in employee benefit plans.
The CBSA’s net increase is made up of a number of new requirements offset by some reductions from sunsetting projects and programs. The new requirements include $46.4 million in funding to manage for growth associated with planned 2018 immigration levels, which include activities such as security screening, border processing and inland enforcements; $43.9 million for developing the CBSA’s Assessment and Revenue Management project, CARM, designed to improve the assessment and payment processes for importers bringing goods into Canada while ensuring they meet their trade compliance responsibilities; $15.4 million for establishing systems and processes to enable the expansion of biometric screening in Canada’s immigration process; $7.3 million for enhancing compliance under the Temporary Foreign Worker and International Mobility Program by investigating instances of fraud and other offences committed; finally, $7.3 million for implementing and administering a federal framework to legalize and regulate cannabis. The agency’s new funding total of $120 million is offset by decreases to the agency’s budget, totalling $71.7 million, which are primarily related to the completion of several major projects that were approved under the Canada-U.S. Beyond the Border Action Plan.
With regard to funding irregular migration, the CBSA has not requested permanent appropriations to manage these processes through the Main Estimates. Last year, the agency received some funding and made a number of internal resource allocations to meet its operational demands associated with irregular migration at the border. In the last fiscal year, the CBSA spent about $38 million, including an incremental $18.4 million on salary and $19.6 million on non-salary expenditures to manage irregular migration volumes.
As this committee is aware, Budget 2018 set aside $173 million for managing irregular migration to ensure security at the border and the processing of asylum claims. Of this amount, the CBSA should receive $72 million over the next two years — $49.6 million for this fiscal year and the balance of $22.4 million for the next fiscal year. This budget funding cover various activities starting at the border but including post-border activities such as processing, security screening and ultimately removal in line with the agency’s mandate.
At this time I would be pleased, along with my colleague, to answer any questions the committee may have.
The Chair: Thank you.
The chair will now recognize Senator Marshall.
Senator Marshall: I’m going to start my questioning with Mr. Mills. You referenced, I believe, the additional funding that’s going to be provided as a result of the Budget 2018 initiatives, the $17 million for irregular migration. I’m trying to get a handle on the numbers for what the irregular migration is costing. In 2017-18, for the fiscal year just ended, what was the cost of irregular migration?
[Translation]
Mr. Mills: As for the 2017-18 costs to Immigration Canada of the irregular situations, we have added amounts totalling $24 million, just to process the irregular immigration.
[English]
Senator Marshall: What does that cover? I’m looking at an article in the National Post this morning. Does that include housing, drug-related costs, medical costs? What does that $24 million cover?
[Translation]
Mr. Mills: That cost of almost $24 million includes all the processing costs on the border in terms of the claimants’ eligibility when they arrive. That is the part for which Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada is responsible. It also includes the interim health costs during the assessment period, as the claimants are waiting for their status to be determined and up to the time when my colleague processes their files.
[English]
Senator Marshall: What about the housing costs? Is that included in the $24 million?
[Translation]
Mr. Mills: No, that is not included in our costs. For 2017-18, housing costs have been absorbed by our colleagues in the Border Services Agency. Together with all the departments involved, we are in the process of consolidating last year’s total cost of irregular immigration. We have not yet established the final amount, but we can certainly come back to the committee to discuss the matter. As you know, the financial year ended on March 31. So we are in the process of closing our books, and we should have the final figures in the coming weeks.
[English]
Senator Marshall: Yes; I’d like that.
The $24 million sounds a bit low to me. What’s included in the 2018-19 numbers for irregular migration? I know that additional money is provided as a result of the Budget 2018 initiative. I think for your department it’s $17 million, but what’s in the Main Estimates for 2018-19? What you gave me, the $24 million, was for last year.
[Translation]
Mr. Mills: I do not have the amount. In our Main Estimates, there is a permanent budget we use to process the whole area of asylum claims. As for the difference between irregular and regular immigration, I do not have that figure with me. I can get back to you with it later.
[English]
Senator Marshall: You do track the two streams, the regular versus the irregular, don’t you? It’s not all combined?
[Translation]
Mr. Mills: Until recently, we accounted for all asylum claims together. Since 2017-18, we have distinguished between regular and irregular immigration.
[English]
Senator Marshall: Thank you very much.
For the board, you gave some numbers with regard to your processing. It sounds like with the resources that you have you’re not going to be able to keep up with the inflow.
I noticed that a review was undertaken during the year. I think the final report is due sometime in June. However, the interim report was supposed to have been received in December. Has that study been completed now?
Ms. Benzvy Miller: With regard to the study, I think that my colleagues from the department would need to respond to that because it was for the minister. The report was done by the former deputy minister, Neil Yeates. He submitted it to the minister, so it’s really their report.
Senator Marshall: Did the board have any participation in that review?
Ms. Benzvy Miller: We participated in the sense that we had people on his secretariat, and also he interviewed a number of people, including our former chair and a number of deputy chairs, including me.
Senator Marshall: Based on your understanding of what the terms of reference were, was it to take a look at the processing of the claims, the number of claims you’re getting and the ability of the board to process them?
Ms. Benzvy Miller: My understanding of the terms of reference — and I may be corrected by my colleagues — was to look at how we could maximize the way funding is done for the board in order to deal with unpredictable intake levels. In a world where migration is becoming more and more pronounced, we can’t really predict the number of refugees we will get in any given year.
Senator Marshall: No, but the numbers have really spiked.
Ms. Benzvy Miller: The numbers have spiked, and we have been given some money in this last budget to deal with that. For the board it’s really simple math. We get a claim, we need to have members and hearing rooms, so infrastructure and support staff in order to hear the claim. You need to treat every single claim on its merits. You can’t batch them and make a decision across the board. You need to deal with each individual’s story and basis of claim.
Senator Marshall: Based on the numbers you gave us, there is a significant backlog.
Ms. Benzvy Miller: There’s a gap.
Senator Marshall: Perhaps Mr. Mills can tell us the status of the special review that was carried out. Is there an interim report?
[Translation]
Mr. Mills: Yes, we have received the interim report. We are in the process of studying its recommendations. According to my information, it will be published in June.
[English]
Senator Marshall: Thank you very much. Would we be able to get a copy of the interim report? I’d be interested in the interim report.
Mr. Mills: I will follow up and get back. I’m not sure whether it’s available or not.
Senator Marshall: I would like to have some questions.
The Chair: Let’s do it now, senator, please, for CBSA.
Senator Marshall: The CBSA is talking about the numbers and the number of irregular migrants. An article in the National Post says:
The CBSA is critically underfunded, and understaffed with outdated technology, and cannot even perform its regular duties, let alone this unprecedented crisis breach of our borders.
Could you comment on that? Are you under-resourced? Are you understaffed and underfunded?
Mr. Moor: I will answer the question on the money and then let my colleague answer on the operations.
We are funded to process around 26,000 asylum seekers each year. That’s made up of a combination of irregular and normal migrants. In 2012, for example, we processed 7,400 asylum claims, 653 of which were between the borders. In 2017, that number tripled overall as 20,593 went between the borders. We incurred that $39.8 million cost last year, and that is what the government is funding in Budget 2018 with $49 million of additional funding for the CBSA.
Last year, that covered all the costs at the border side of it, including temporary accommodation for migrants. It also started to cost out the post-border and enforcement activities. Clearly those costs will come later in the years to come.
I’ll hand it over to Jacques to explain.
Jacques Cloutier, Vice-President, Operations Branch, Canada Border Services Agency: Thank you for your question. For us, what is really important is our ability to respond to different priorities as they occur and as they present. So far, the agency has been able to utilize its highly mobile workforce to respond to different challenges across the country. We continue to do that. As my colleague Jonathan pointed out, the funding that we’re expecting this year will augment our ability to do that.
Senator Marshall: But will it be sufficient?
Mr. Cloutier: For the situation as we understand it now, yes, I believe it will be sufficient.
Senator Marshall: And was funding last year sufficient? News articles are suggesting that you’re diverting your resources from other areas to look after the irregular migration. The impression that’s being left is that you’re forced to remove your resources from one area, and that area is being understaffed, in order to resource the irregular migrant area.
Mr. Cloutier: We make operational decisions on a daily basis, depending on what’s happening across the country. We rely on volunteers from across the country. We have over 7,000 front-line officers we can redeploy. We never do that at the cost of ongoing operations. A lot of the people we’ve deployed are people who have come in to help in clerical or other functions that are not immediately front-line functions.
There is an impact, but this impact is monitored and managed on a daily basis. In fact, the rotations for responding to the situation are established months in advance. So I already know today the number of officers who are going to be deployed over the next three months. This is done in a way to ensure we can continue to provide services where and when required.
Senator Marshall: Thank you. Which department is the overseer of all the costs? Which department would I go to in order to find the total cost of the irregular migration? Is it your department, Mr. Mills?
[Translation]
Mr. Mills: Yes, for 2017-18, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada did the consolidation. With our colleagues from all the other departments, we did it to arrive at a figure that collects the information from all departments.
[English]
Senator Marshall: Okay, thank you very much.
[Translation]
Senator Pratte: I have before me some statistics on the number of refugee protection claims made irregularly in the first months of 2018. In Quebec, for example, there were 1,884 claims in March, three times more than last year, and there were 2,479 claims in April, four times more than last year. Do we have any idea about the situation in May? Is the upward trend continuing?
Louis Dumas, Director General, Domestic Network, Operations, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada: In Quebec, to date, from May 1 to May 13, there have been 867 claims.
Senator Pratte: So the rhythm is a little slower than in April.
Mr. Dumas: Yes. However, you have to look at the overall picture. The situation has to be very closely monitored. Last year, we saw a drop-off in May, followed by a spike in June. We have to be careful with the figures. We monitor the situation on a daily basis to see how many people are arriving at the border between points of entry.
Senator Pratte: When you look at the resources distributed to various organizations in Budget 2018, whether to the board, the department or the agency, to deal with the problem of irregular asylum claims, were the resources based on the problem as we experienced it in 2017? Therefore, if the problem gets worse this year — the data from the beginning of the year tell us that the problem will get worse — will we be up against a situation of insufficient resources? Are the resources that were put at your disposal in the 2018 budget sufficient, given the trends we have seen since the start of the year? My question is for Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, but also for the board.
Mr. Dumas: I will answer on behalf of the department. At the moment, things are going very well. In 2017, we faced some major challenges, but we succeeded in creating new ways of processing the large numbers of asylum-seekers. However, it requires us to be aware of the data on a daily basis. We have to forecast the number of arrivals, which is always a little difficult. At the moment, the system is going very well. I have to recognize the remarkable work of the RCMP and the Canada Border Services Agency. Applications are being processed in our systems within 48 to 72 hours. In addition, the claimants are covered by the Interim Federal Health Program and they have access to work permits after about 28 days. It is important for them to be treated with respect, for their claim to be processed efficiently, and for them to be able to submit their claim to the IRB.
I will hand over to my colleagues from the IRB.
Ms. Benzvy Miller: Thank you. Requests for funds are made according to the growth projections for asylum-seekers and on the tribunal’s basic principles. That is no easy task. Good candidates have to be found and trained. Considerable time and effort is required to double the size of the tribunal. Our colleagues help us to make projections based on the deferred numbers of cases expected, but also on the possibility of growth we can manage. If we were given infinite resources, we could not provide the positions or train the people. We try to work in terms of responsible growth.
Senator Pratte: The board has to clear quite a major backlog, do you not?
Ms. Benzvy Miller: Yes, but we are working on the efficiency of our system. Since I arrived a year ago, we have increased our ability to meet the claimants’ needs by 40 per cent. We have established processes and policies to ensure that we can handle as many claims as possible.
Senator Pratte: Can we be sure that the situation won’t be the same as last year when we had to house people at the Olympic Stadium? Can we avoid that kind of situation this summer?
Mr. Cloutier: Thank you for the question. As my colleague mentioned, we learned a lot from last year’s situation. A lot of effort is being put into following the movements on a daily basis and understanding what is happening. Contingency plans have been prepared with the Government of Canada’s centre of expertise to ensure maximum capacity to avoid this type of situation. It is about taking a more collaborative and organizational approach with all the different stakeholders and partners. We are working daily with the Quebec immigration ministry to understand its ability to accommodate people. We are working with the RCMP and Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada to ensure that there are no bottlenecks in the process and that applicants are treated with respect, humanity and compassion.
That said, we must be clear. Our work is based on projections and our understanding of the situation. The plans we have in place also allow us to have an additional response capacity precisely to deal with a wave that we could not have foreseen or that would be greater than we expected.
Senator Pratte: What about the situation related to the movement of claimants who express their intention not to remain in Quebec? There was talk of developing a plan with Ontario. However, this could be a problem because Ontario has limited capacity.
Have you made any progress on this file? Is the picture clearer than it was?
Mr. Dumas: That’s an excellent question. As Mr. Cloutier mentioned, we are working very closely with the provinces. We realize there is a lot of pressure in large urban centres like Montreal and Toronto. We have to work in partnership with the provinces and municipalities.
Over the next few weeks, we propose establishing a triage centre at border crossings, including Lacolle, where Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada would work in partnership with Canada Border Services Agency and the provinces to determine housing capacity. In Ontario, for example, we know that Toronto is saturated. However, it would appear that it is possible to find housing in mid-sized cities such as Sudbury or Windsor. It is important to work closely with Ontario to foster this collaboration. We must also discuss things with Quebec. The intergovernmental working group is looking closely at this issue. From an operational point of view, we are examining the situation from week to week, namely how to set up this triage centre. We should have answers in a few weeks.
[English]
Senator Eaton: My first question is for Mr. Mills. A person arrives, not at a legal crossing but at an illegal crossing. So they have a first hearing to determine whether they’re an asylum seeker or whether they make refugee status; is that correct? I’m trying to get at the basis of all the costs. I arrive. You have to determine whether I’m going to get a refugee hearing. I’m an asylum seeker first, and then I become a refugee. It’s a two-step process right there.
Ms. Benzvy Miller: You make a claim at the border, and then there is an eligibility hearing to refer to the board.
Senator Eaton: That’s the first hearing.
Ms. Benzvy Miller: It’s not a hearing; it’s just an interview. The person then files based on the claim form —
Senator Eaton: Slow down. So you hear me, I become a refugee, and then I get health, lodging, unemployment, work permit?
Mr. Dumas: It’s a very interesting question indeed. We’re working closely with colleagues at CBSA. People do come at the moment, as the senator points out, in between ports of entry. They are being arrested under the Customs Act by colleagues from the RCMP, and then passed on within 24 hours to colleagues from CBSA.
Senator Eaton: So within 24 hours, they have a first hearing.
Ms. Benzvy Miller: No, they don’t have a hearing.
Mr. Dumas: That’s right.
Ms. Benzvy Miller: The hearing we do for referred cases. In order to get a referral, there has to be an interview to determine that you have a —
Senator Eaton: So, meanwhile, you put me in a house somewhere in the tent city?
Mr. Dumas: It’s a long continuum. It starts with the RCMP and colleagues from the CBSA. I’ll pass it on to Mr. Cloutier to talk about the admissibility progress, and I’ll come back to the eligibility process.
Mr. Cloutier: At the RCMP, as you imagine, the person would have been arrested under the Customs Act. They are then processed. There is an interview process with the RCMP. I’m going to tread lightly, because I don’t want to speak on behalf of my colleagues, but generally speaking, an interview takes place. Documents are reviewed, and criminality and security checks are performed by the RCMP. Where no risk to national security and no criminal history are identified by the RCMP, they are handed over to us. That’s within the first 24 hours.
Once we take custody of them, we proceed with photo identification. We take their picture. We take their fingerprints and do verifications in the system. We perform basic checks related to articles of immigration and refugee protection that are of interest to us related to whether there are known incidents of war crimes issues, human rights violations or organized crime.
Where significant concerns are identified, they can be detained at the border or elsewhere, depending on the situation, for a period of 48 hours before there is a review of the detention to determine whether it should continue or be stopped, depending on the circumstances. We do this in order to verify identity, to confirm the information we’ve received from them and information we would receive from —
Senator Eaton: Could you go a little faster, as my colleagues want to question you.
Mr. Cloutier: Once we determine there is no issue, we proceed with an adjournment, which means they are released on terms and conditions that include their obligation to present either to the IRCC or to us —
Senator Eaton: So they’re released into the population.
Mr. Cloutier: Under terms and conditions, yes, because no risk is identified.
Senator Eaton: But they’re still an asylum seeker, right?
Mr. Cloutier: At this point, they’ve made a claim. No determination has been made as to whether the claim is receivable. That takes place in the context of an interview.
Senator Eaton: And what do you give each person released?
Mr. Cloutier: They receive terms and conditions. They’re moved to housing, usually a temporary shelter in Montreal, where very shortly they will be met by my colleagues from IRCC.
Senator Eaton: What is the period of time — months, weeks?
Mr. Cloutier: No. We’re talking about a couple of days at this point. Last fall was an outlier because we had so many people, and we didn’t build up the industry to respond to this. This year was a much better situation. We’re talking about hours at this point.
Mr. Dumas: That’s right. I would say that between 48 and 72 hours we do the eligibility determination: Are these asylum seekers allowed to present a claim as a refugee to the IRB?
Senator Eaton: So they’re in temporary houses, they’re waiting, and then, say within a week, they have a refugee hearing.
Ms. Benzvy Miller: No. Within a week, they will get referred to the board.
Senator Eaton: Then what is the time period that takes them to see whether they are actually a refugee?
Ms. Benzvy Miller: It depends. We have various case management processes, so it could take months. We deal with different cases differently. For instance, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, we do have country specialization teams. Those teams will hear cases from the countries from which we have the most claims.
Senator Eaton: For instance, when I’m sitting there as an asylum seeker waiting for my hearing, I get health, housing, unemployment, dental — whatever a Canadian would have, in other words.
Mr. Dumas: You get interim federal health. You do get access to a work permit. We encourage people to apply for a work permit, and we issue a work permit within 25 days. There is education as well. That’s a provincial responsibility. Therefore, we work very closely with the provinces in making sure we can get those individuals the means to find housing by themselves in the community.
Senator Eaton: So then they wait for their refugee hearing.
Ms. Benzvy Miller: Yes.
Senator Eaton: And you have set targets of 30,000 this year. Did I understand you correctly?
Ms. Benzvy Miller: The target for this year is close to 30,000.
Senator Eaton: You said 2,500 a month.
Ms. Benzvy Miller: That’s right.
Senator Eaton: About 30,000. How many will remain in the backlog — 20,000 or 15,000?
Ms. Benzvy Miller: For irregular border crossers, I don’t divide the numbers that way. Our total backlog right now is a little over 50,000 cases.
Senator Eaton: Right. You will see 30,000 this year, so there will be 20,000 in backlog.
How many people disappear, and how fast does it take somebody — once you’ve told me, “I’m sorry, Senator Eaton, you’re not a refugee” —
Ms. Benzvy Miller: Then you will appeal to the Refugee Appeal Division and will have your case examined there.
Senator Eaton: And if I lose that?
Ms. Benzvy Miller: You can go to Federal Court if Federal Court accepts your case.
Senator Eaton: I thought we had a safe-country thing. That is, if you came from a safe country where we believe in your judicial system, you could not come in as a refugee.
Ms. Benzvy Miller: Okay. I think you’re referring to the Safe Third Country Agreement between Canada and the United States, but that’s not —
Senator Eaton: Aren’t there some countries in Europe, too, if you come from France —
Ms. Benzvy Miller: As I said, every decision is based on the claimant’s story. We look at whether or not you will likely be persecuted if you return to your home country. Obviously, the bar for a country where there isn’t a historical or some sort of societal problem going on is much higher; the likelihood of persecution is much lower. The member will take the country conditions into account when they look at the individual claimant’s story.
Senator Eaton: Have we worked out how much individually each refugee claim, whether it’s at the border or a non-border crossing, costs us on average? That is, from the time they get heard to the time they’re told yes, you are, you can settle in Canada, or no, we’re deporting you. Do we have any idea what that costs us?
Mr. Dumas: I think various numbers were mentioned. I don’t believe we have a specific number, but, quickly, I think we have to put the situation in context a bit.
Ms. Benzvy Miller talked about country conditions and things like that. I think it’s important as well to be aware that there are 62 million people on the move today — that is, people who are fleeing persecution, terrorism and war. When we deal with the numbers we’re dealing with currently in Canada, I think it’s a new reality for Canada.
Senator Eaton: But I think it would be nice if people came in legally. I’m all for immigration, but legally.
Mr. Dumas: That’s true. We want people to avail themselves of the immigration streams that exist for Canada, Canada being a very welcoming country. Second, as the senator points out, we have to make sure that if people have to claim refugee status, they do so at the first available opportunity.
Senator Eaton: Do you have any idea how many people are at large that should be deported and that have been told they should leave the country? Do you have any idea?
Mr. Cloutier: I can take that question. It’s a very important question. We have 35,000 people in our removal or wanted inventory. Those are people against whom warrants have been issued.
To be clear, there are two elements to characterize that information. First, we’re not talking about high-risk individuals. The individuals that are of concern for us are people identified on our CBSA most-wanted site. The other element that is really important is that we do not yet have a fully implemented entry and exit legislation. That means that out of those 35,000 people, a number have probably self-removed. The individuals against which we have active warrants are being monitored by every police force across the country, and when we come across those individuals, we act.
[Translation]
Senator Moncion: I would like to talk about biometrics. You requested $28.1 million in the current budget. Last year, you received $15.4 million. Can you tell us where you are with the advances in biometric control costs?
Mr. Mills: That’s a good question. Regarding biometric costs, we are currently in the expansion phase.
[English]
We will expand biometric screening to people from all visa-required countries applying for a temporary residence visa and to all people who apply on permanent application.
[Translation]
This will be done in two phases. A first phase will be devoted to Europe, Africa and the Middle East in the summer of 2018. For the rest of the population, the end of the year, so December 2018, is expected.
Senator Moncion: When you talk about the rest of the population, what does that mean?
Mr. Mills: The people who will be affected by biometric screening, from now on, in the new expansion phase, are the ones who are applying for a temporary resident visa as well as everyone applying for permanent residence. The costs are related to the expansion of biometrics.
Senator Moncion: Will you have enough money to complete this process, or will you need to ask for more?
Mr. Mills: The money we are requesting this year, a supplementary envelope of $28.1 million, will enable us to develop and implement the biometric system internationally.
Senator Moncion: Now, in the Main Estimates, the CBSA is requesting an increase of $46.4 million to fund the 2017 immigration plan and, in 2018-19, the intention is to welcome up to 300,000 new immigrants. Have I understood correctly, or is it 30,000 a year and there are already 300,000? Have we already taken in 300,000 and the target is 330,000?
Ms. Benzvy Miller: Those are two different numbers. The planning is for immigration overall. For us, it’s the number of referrals we’ll be able to hear and hearings we’ll be able to handle.
Senator Moncion: So you think you’ll be able to hear 30,000 cases.
Ms. Benzvy Miller: They aren’t immigrants. For us, they are refugees, asylum-seekers. They are two different groups of people. The people who arrive in the context of immigration are not people who may be subject to persecution. At the board, we deal with refugee claimants, people who need Canada’s protection.
[English]
The Chair: Before we pause to bring in the other witnesses, I have a question, if you would permit me.
I would like to share something with you, Border Services. I used to be a customs officer as a student and then later on. Last week I was in Atlantic Canada. Some Canadians in Atlantic Canada have told me about the Canada Border Services Agency infrastructure. When I look at the infrastructure capital expenditures and your request with your vote in the Main Estimates and then at 2017-18 and 2018-19, there is a reduction in your capital expenditures. That’s in the book.
My question is about Atlantic Canada border crossings. In particular, I’ll talk about Atlantic Canada. I want to make sure on record that I also talk about the border entrance in Saint-Léonard, New Brunswick, and Van Buren, Maine. What are your projected capital expenditures in 2018-19 for infrastructure at ports of entry in all of Atlantic Canada? I would also like to have the exact numbers for the border crossing entering into Saint-Léonard. Can you provide that to us now, or would you like to bring it through the clerk?
Mr. Moor: Thank you very much for your question. I think we’ll have to come back with the detailed figures around Atlantic Canada. What I can say is the port of entry at Saint-Léonard is owned by PSPC. We are currently negotiating a transfer of that port to the CBSA. Once that transfer is undertaken, we will then decide on what further work needs to be done to bring it up to standard.
As part of our comprehensive review last year, we looked at all of our ports of entry. Many of our ports of entry are very old. About 46 per cent are over 50 years old, and we now have an overall strategy for replacing our 117 ports of entry. The backlog is around $2.5 billion, so we will need significant money to start putting in place a replacement program.
We will come back to you with the detail on that.
The Chair: And also for the port of entry at Saint-Léonard.
M. Moor: At the moment, that’s not our property. It’s the property of the PSPC. We will only be able to assess how much work needs to be done on that port of entry once the PSPC transfers it to us.
[Translation]
Mr. Cloutier: I would add, Mr. Chair, that the clerk will need to be given information on the volumes concerning the point of entry —
[English]
The Chair: I have been informed that we have problems with the translation. I have to admit that I think our infrastructure here is also obsolete.
Mr. Mills, you have a question from Senator Marshall that you would provide us through the clerk the total actual costs of irregular migrants, for the record, in 2017-18. Total costs include the department, the refugee board, CBSA, RCMP.
The second item of material to be provided to us will be the total budgeted cost of irregular migrants in 2018-19. Is that according to your understanding as well?
Mr. Mills: Yes.
The Chair: On this, to the witnesses, thank you.
[Translation]
Honourable senators, we will resume our business. We have with us representatives from two departments to discuss their funding requests in the 2018-19 Main Estimates.
[English]
First, from Shared Services Canada, we welcome Graham Barr, Acting Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy Branch; and Samantha Hazen, Director General and Deputy Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Services.
From Public Services and Procurement Canada, we welcome Marty Muldoon, Chief Financial Officer, Finance and Administration, Public Services and Procurement Canada.
[Translation]
We also welcome Kevin Radford, Assistant Deputy Minister of Real Property, and Marc Lemieux, Assistant Deputy Minister of Pay Administration, both from Public Services and Procurement Canada.
[English]
I have been informed that presentations will be from Mr. Barr, to be followed by Mr. Muldoon. Following your presentations, questions will be asked by the senators.
Mr. Barr, you have the floor.
[Translation]
Graham Barr, Acting Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy Branch, Shared Services Canada: I am pleased to appear before you to discuss Shared Service Canada’s 2018-19 Main Estimates. Joining me is Samantha Hazen.
[English]
Shared Services Canada provides modern, reliable and secure information technology infrastructure services in support of government priorities and digital delivery of programs and services to Canadians. Every time Canadians cross the border, check the weather or apply for key benefits, Shared Services Canada is there working behind the scenes to make it all work.
Through its 2018-19 Main Estimates, Shared Services Canada is seeking $1.5 billion to carry out this mandate. For the coming year, we will focus on the following priorities to support the Government of Canada’s digital vision: We will modernize IT infrastructure and enable cloud services, we will implement business tools to secure and deliver digital services, and we will sustain government’s core operations during this modernization.
We will continue to migrate departmental workloads to the public cloud or to new enterprise data centres. This will be enabled by a new state-of-the-art data centre we recently opened in Ontario to better protect government and citizen information and ensure IT systems are highly secure. This facility requires no maintenance shutdowns, which means our customers and Canadians will see fewer service interruptions.
[Translation]
Also, many of our customer departments are using the public cloud brokering service we launched earlier this year for their unclassified data. In 2018-19, we will work with our PSPC colleagues to offer cloud services for classified data up to the Protected B level.
SSC is also continuing to evolve to meet the secure, mobile and digital communications services required by federal employees to support the government anytime and anywhere.
We have been examining international best practices and engaging industry partners. We have also been working closely with federal customer organizations to gain a better understanding of digital communications trends and leverage collaboration tools like videoconferencing and instant messaging.
[English]
We will also continue to develop the workforce needed to address the increasing demand for our services. We are building on a major recruitment initiative we launched last year, which has already resulted in significant hires.
Finally, Budget 2018 proposes significant investments to address the government’s evolving IT needs and opportunities and to proactively address cybersecurity threats.
Over $2 billion is proposed over six years for Shared Services Canada. This funding marks a reset for the department and for government IT. These investments will help strengthen the department’s commitment to its customers and deliver the kinds of digital services that Canadians expect.
[Translation]
This completes our opening statement. We would be happy to take the committee’s questions.
Marty Muldoon, Chief Financial Officer, Finance and Administration, Public Services and Procurement Canada: I am pleased to appear before you on behalf of Public Services and Procurement Canada to discuss the 2018-19 Main Estimates. I am joined by Kevin Radford, Assistant Deputy Minister of Real Property Services, and Marc Lemieux, Assistant Deputy Minister of Pay Administration.
[English]
Public Services and Procurement Canada has a broad mandate, as this committee is aware, to provide services that support other departments and agencies in fulfilling their mandates along with parliamentarians and Canadians to help build a more inclusive and innovative economy. As the government’s central purchasing agent, PSPC manages the procurement of goods and services valued at $20 billion a year on average.
We continue our important work to develop simpler processes, policies and tools to make it easier for suppliers, especially small and medium-sized enterprises, to do business with Canada. Since last July, suppliers have been able to submitted bids electronically, which is faster, greener and more efficient. By the end of this year, we expect at least 70 per cent of all bids received to be submitted this way.
Over the longer term, PSPC is adopting an e-procurement solution that will further simplify contracting. Funding was identified in Budget 2018 for this initiative, and the department is approaching the planning and implementation while keeping at the forefront the various important lessons learned from the Phoenix project to inform our approach.
[Translation]
Working with the Department of National Defence, PSPC also leads the acquisition of critical equipment for the Canadian Armed Forces.
[English]
An open and transparent competition to permanently replace Canada’s fighter fleet has been under way since December. In addition, under the National Shipbuilding Strategy, ship construction continues on both coasts, with the first Coast Guard and first military vessels nearing completion. The Offshore Fisheries Science Vessel was launched in December 2017 and will be put into service in the fall of 2018. The Arctic and Offshore Patrol Ship is due to be launched this fall and be available for service in the summer of 2019.
As the government’s real property expert, the department manages a Crown-owned real estate portfolio and accommodates 250,000 federal employees across the country. We are leveraging our real property programs and services to contribute to greening and improve accessibility. Here in the Parliamentary Precinct, our objective remains to work closely with our parliamentary partners to ensure a seamless transition of operations from Centre Block this summer to the stunning new House of Commons in West Block and from East Block to the beautiful new Government Conference Centre that will serve as the new temporary home for the Senate.
[Translation]
The committee’s study of Phoenix included a recent visit to our Public Service Pay Centre in Miramichi.
[English]
There you would have heard about the successful pilot and planned rollout of the new pod approach, whereby pay staff are being organized into service teams dedicated to specific departments. Our most recent dashboard shows the backlog declined by 5,000 transactions from a month earlier. As pay pods are expanded, we expect this decline in backlogged transactions to pick up speed.
Funding in the amount of $307 million for 2018-19 was identified to help us continue our critical efforts via Budget 2018.
[Translation]
Resolving employees’ pay problems remains our department’s top priority.
[English]
Turning now to the numbers, in the 2018-19 Main Estimates, Public Services and Procurement Canada is requesting $3.2 billion, which represents a reduction over last year’s mains of about $460 million. This is due primarily to the planned sunsetting of a number of programs. They are listed on pages 126 and 127 of the estimates documentation, but just for reference, real property program integrity had a planned sunset. It was identified in Budget 2018 and will be seeking renewal. There was a planned sunset of a small amount of funding for fit-up programming we have fully utilized and which now sunsets.
The federal infrastructure program that accelerated infrastructure investments from Budgets 2015 and 2016 has achieved its final sunset. We do have a little bit of funding in 2018-19 to finish projects related to that. Finally, the Build in Canada Innovation Program, which has a five-year funding envelope, did sunset, and we are in the process of seeking the renewal this year through the normal processes.
As the committee members know, the timing of the Main Estimates has been adjusted in order to better align the estimates cycle with the federal budget. This new approach is already affording greater coherency and transparency for parliamentarians who must assess government spending commitments and consider approving them. For PSPC, $653 million is identified in Budget 2018, which is outlined in TBS’s Main Estimates.
Therefore, if we add that to our opening Main Estimates of $3.2 billion, it will bring PSPC to approximately $200 million higher than our previous year’s mains. I would add that the vast majority of this increase is to fund the sunsetted items I noted just moments ago: real property at $275 million, plus funding for the e-procurement initiative I highlighted, at $52 million. You will recall that the budget included $2.8 billion for the federal labs initiative. We’ll see the first $16 million in preplanning and project management.
[Translation]
Thank you. We look forward to your questions.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you. Before the chair recognizes the senators, I would like to take this opportunity to thank Mr. Lemieux.
[Translation]
We thank you for your co-operation and professionalism when the committee members visited the Miramichi pay centre. On behalf of the committee, we thank you. You and your team have been very professional.
[English]
Senator Marshall: I want to start with Shared Services Canada. My first question relates to cyber and IT security. Can you just give us some insight as to whether any external reviews are being conducted of your IT and cybersecurity, or is that handled entirely in house?
Mr. Barr: Thank you for the question. Shared Services Canada works very closely with the Communications Security Establishment and Public Safety Canada as well as the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat with respect to cybersecurity. Our mandate is and our progress over the past few years has been to consolidate IT infrastructure so that the government has clear visibility over all the different systems the departments have. Through that consolidated visibility, we’re able to react faster and actually prevent cyber breaches.
As part of the external review that was led by Treasury Board and conducted by Gartner in 2016-17, they also looked at the IT security and cybersecurity part of our mandate. Also, a number of internal audits are conducted, and we have also had a few external audits conducted on cybersecurity, usually as part of the other departments that are part of that mandate.
Senator Marshall: Is that on a regular basis? Would it be every three years? You referenced the internal audits, and Treasury Board did some reviews, but are regularly scheduled external, independent assessments carried out — for example, every two or three years?
Mr. Barr: They are not regularly scheduled, but they are much more frequent than every three years.
Senator Marshall: You talked about breaches. How effective is your security? Have you got some idea of whether it’s effective, or whether you have problems in certain areas?
Mr. Barr: The cybersecurity landscape is always evolving. The threats are becoming more and more sophisticated and more numerous with each passing year.
We have had comments from other countries, like the United States, New Zealand and Australia, which are envious of the fact that cybersecurity and the management of it are as consolidated as they are in the Government of Canada. In those countries, cybersecurity is still managed by individual departments. For example, a couple of years ago, when there was a scare about a vulnerability in a particular software that was widely used by the private and public sectors, Canada was barely touched by that vulnerability. We were able to react very quickly because we knew where the devices were that had the potential vulnerability, and we were able to react quickly.
Senator Marshall: Some departments and agencies have been given permission to opt out, or they were trying to opt out. Have some departments and agencies been given the right to opt out of Shared Services Canada? I read something about the RCMP awhile back and Statistics Canada when Wayne Smith resigned. I saw an article on the Canada Border Services Agency, and they felt using Shared Services Canada was a national security risk. Have those organizations opted out? Who has opted out?
Mr. Barr: No one has opted out. You’re likely referring to a provision in Budget 2017 that amended the Shared Services Canada Act to allow our minister, in exceptional circumstances, to allow another department to receive Shared Services Canada services from someone other than Shared Services Canada.
Senator Marshall: No one has taken advantage of that?
Mr. Barr: Not yet.
Senator Marshall: The Canada.ca project, where is that now? Is that still in progress?
Mr. Barr: I think you’re referring to our email modernization initiative?
Senator Marshall: That was my next question, the email one.
Mr. Barr: The Email Transformation Initiative was the initiative to consolidate the 50 different email systems that the government had into one. As of the latest figures, we have 90,000 active email accounts out of 550,000 email accounts on the new system. Seventeen departments are fully migrated to the new system. We will be migrating six others throughout the rest of this calendar year. We chose those departments based on the level of risk associated with their legacy email systems, their old email systems. Even though with the contract with the vendor there are still some system functionalities not in place, we determined it makes sense to migrate them onto the system.
Senator Marshall: It’s more a pause or a slowdown.
Mr. Barr: It is a slowdown; that’s right.
Senator Marshall: When I’m looking at various departments’ websites, they direct us to a new website, Canada.ca. Is that being done by Shared Services or by another organization?
Mr. Barr: We’re not the lead on the consolidation of the websites. We at Shared Services Canada support the back-end technology.
Senator Marshall: Who is the lead on that, Treasury Board? Okay. I’ll check with Treasury Board. They have a chief information officer.
I want to talk about procurement. For example, who looks after the National Shipbuilding Strategy? Do you involve the Department of Defence, or is that something you’re quite knowledgeable about? I want an update on some aspects of it.
Mr. Muldoon: Certainly the strategy rests primarily with the departments that are looking to do the major acquisitions, but our department collaborates and partners with them in the procurement activities. That’s the main service line that we provide, the procurement process. So for ships and jets, we can answer questions around process, but why they chose or what they’re choosing rests with the department.
Senator Marshall: That’s good. That will do. Specifically, we’ve been having some discussion internally about whether we would or should have a broader project on procurement.
The Canadian Surface Combatants for the navy, can you give us an update on that? Is it still 15 vessels? I was on your website, or it might have been the Defence website, following the press releases and looking for information, but it’s very challenging to get an up-to-date status. What is the status of that particular project, if you can just sum it up briefly?
Mr. Muldoon: I can. Thank you for the question. So that process for procurement has run its course. The intention is still to procure 15 Canadian Surface Combatant ships, but that will be finalized as we get through the bidding process. We should be through that process and have the winner identified sometime in the fall of 2018. So we’re still cruising along through the procurement assessment.
Senator Marshall: Is there a cost estimate on that? I know you still have to go through the bidding process, but is there a tentative cost?
Mr. Muldoon: Not at this time. I personally wouldn’t have that information.
Senator Marshall: Or the deadline or schedule or anything of that nature?
Mr. Muldoon: Right. They’re still on track to release the winning bid for them, and the plan was always to deliver the capability some time into the early 2020s. That still remains the capability or the trajectory, yes.
Senator Pratte: I just want to clarify for both the departments, actually, what is included in Budget 2018. So for Shared Services, Budget 2018 provides $278 million, which is part of the over $2 billion that was announced over six years for the department. But I was trying to get clarification as to what this investment was for exactly. I was looking through department documents, and it wasn’t really clear.
You mentioned in your presentation, Mr. Barr, that this funding marks a reset for the department and for government IT. Would you care to elaborate a bit on what these monies will be spent for?
Mr. Barr: Yes. Thank you very much for the opportunity.
Shared Services Canada will be using Budget 2018 funding to help deliver on the government’s vision for digital services for Canadians. The initiatives that we’re planning have been guided by extensive consultations with Canadians, with industry, as well as by feedback from parliamentarians and the external review that I mentioned earlier that was led by TBS and conducted by Gartner.
Our top priority as stated in the departmental plan is to improve customer service to our customer departments so that they can provide safe and reliable digital services to Canadians. We’re going to do this by building our workforce, hiring, recruiting more people and investing more in retraining and retention. We’re quite encouraged by our success in hiring new staff.
We’re also going to improve service delivery by addressing the risk associated with the aging IT infrastructure as recommended by the external review of SSC that Gartner conducted. We’re going to be conducting an inventory of our IT asset base so that we can have and support a sustainable evergreening strategy in the future.
We’re also planning to continue the work started following Budget 2016 to replace out-of-date IT equipment.
Our other top priority is to modernize the Government of Canada’s IT infrastructure and accelerate the adoption across government of cloud computing. We will do this by working with departments to move their departmental applications and data out of old data centres and into the cloud or into new data centres. We’re going to launch the procurement of public cloud services for classified data. In my opening remarks, I mentioned that we did this previously for unclassified data. We’re going to be securing the government’s network connections to Canada’s major cloud services providers.
The third and last priority I’ll touch on is with respect to strengthening cyber and IT security. This is another priority in our departmental plan. We will do this by working with Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat and the Communications Security Establishment to expand the capacity of the government’s classified network. This will help government officials and ministers be able to communicate during emergencies and other sensitive government business and also increase the government’s and Shared Services Canada’s visibility on the security vulnerabilities of government devices so that we can respond more quickly to prevent potential cyberattacks.
We’re currently in the process of working with departments and central agencies on finalizing our detailed implementation plans for the possible initiatives that I’ve just mentioned, and those will be reviewed by the Treasury Board in the coming months. Then we will look forward to implementation, and the overall result will be digital services for Canadians that are secure, modern and reliable.
Senator Pratte: So the departmental plan takes into account these investments, right?
Mr. Barr: The three priorities I mentioned are in our departmental plan. Most of the specific initiatives I mentioned are not specifically mentioned in the departmental plan. Those are the ones we’re working on for the detailed implementation plans.
Senator Pratte: For public services, you mentioned it, but you might want to be a bit more specific. You mentioned Phoenix, and we’re well aware of that, but there’s $275 million for maintenance and repair of public buildings. So you might be more specific as to what is included in that.
Mr. Muldoon: I would be happy to. Thank you for the question.
There were five main items that made up the budget for us in Budget 2018, and these allocations are the year one only for 2018-2019.
You did mention the Phoenix funding and what we were doing there. To set the stage, if any questions come for Mr. Lemieux later, we spent this past year, 2017-18, building up the capacity, and we’re now at that level; the $307 million will accommodate for one year moving forward.
With the $275 million, this is a program for real property maintenance that we’ve been managing on a couple of years at a time, renewed investment. We have two components to the nature of taking care of the many buildings that we operate on behalf of the federal government. One half is that we’re covered under a quasi-stat protection model where all the normalized increases of keeping those buildings operating — the light and utility bills — were protected from inflation. But what happened over time is we have a fairly generous backlog of much-needed repairs and maintenance that that doesn’t address. That addresses the costs that fluctuate.
So this funding is to take care of getting that much-needed backlog in place. We just finished two years’ worth of funding. That is expired. This $275 million is a one-year extension. We will return this year with a longer-term plan for government. Mr. Radford can speak about the nature of the work there, but it’s thousands of mini projects.
The other renewal investment is $4 million to continue another year of the Controlled Goods Program. Canada has a privileged relationship with the U.S. military supply market, and through these controlled goods we’re able to control in a very secure and safe way the import of military supplies to our country. So this program does all of the regulations and checks and so forth to make sure that registration of what’s coming in is part of the planned controlled goods arrivals into our country for the military from the U.S. defence market.
That program goes through waves of two years or one-year renewals. We’re in that phase again, one-year renewal. What you will see now in our departmental plan is definitely an overview of the plans for the year. These were named in the budget but not in time for our departmental plan, which was tabled prior. You wouldn’t see detailed assessments of what we’re going to be able to accomplish, for instance, with the $307 million on Phoenix, but we can speak to all of the plans we have in mind.
What you will see on controlled goods for $4 million is a direct reference to the fact that this is a year in which a number of the organizations in the public service — Global Affairs Canada, National Defence and ourselves — are really looking at the controlled goods environment and whether or not there is some opportunity for synthesis there. That’s why a one-year renewal. And I mentioned the other two, the e-procurement initiative and the first year of the federal laboratories. That rounds out the new items for us.
Senator Pratte: I wanted to mention that you said the new accommodations for the House of Commons in West Block will be stunning, and the new temporary Senate will only be beautiful. Get to work.
The Chair: The question would be: can you elaborate?
Mr. Muldoon: Those were my words. I think both of those buildings are extraordinary, but I will let you be the judge as the new tenants.
Senator Eaton: To follow on my colleague Senator Pratte’s comment about the gorgeousness of the West Block, can you give us an update in terms of costs and timelines? I know in the Speaker’s office, it’s will we move, will we not move? Will the security get it done in time? You’re all smiling at me.
Mr. Muldoon: I’m not. I’m just hoping I can find my page.
Senator Eaton: If you could give us an update on the costs. Are there cost overruns? Will you be ready on time?
Mr. Muldoon: I don’t have a specific answer right down to the dollar. We’ve delivered over 20 of the LTVP, the Long Term Vision and Plan for the Parliamentary Precinct, on time, on budget and on scope. Right now as the CFO, my understanding is this project is exactly tracking on that same trajectory to be on time, on budget and on scope.
I know a lot of close partnership is being worked carefully between our leadership team and the parliamentarians and making sure that we can sequence all of the moves exactly as they have to occur. I believe that it remains still a possibility, although if not, we’ll certainly adjust together.
Senator Eaton: To continue with public buildings, when will we begin — or have we and I’ve missed it — to see the costs in the estimates? I live in the East Block, so I’ve seen scaffolding going up, and obviously Centre Block will soon have scaffolding and workers. When will we start to see the costs of that come in?
Mr. Muldoon: In fact, through the last many years’ worth of estimates, we have seen the overall envelope as it was approved in different lump sums for the vision and plan process to unfold. Centre Block is another example. Once we get to a point we’re going above the available funds we already have approved from two or three years ago, we will need to return for those increments.
Senator Eaton: Thank you. May I ask you one question on my favourite topic, which is the planned procurement approach, the Canadian Surface Combatants. I’m sure you were waiting for that. What is the expected timeline for the delivery, and how far along are we?
Mr. Muldoon: Thank you for the question. The process right now, in terms of trajectory towards delivery in the early years of the 2020 decade, is on track. So to be built and delivered in the 2020s.
Senator Eaton: Have you selected a bidder yet?
Mr. Muldoon: No, the process isn’t closed. The bid selection assessment is under way. The winning bid is due to be announced in fall of 2018. So we’re just a few short months away. To clarify for the official record, construction of the Canadian Surface Combatant ship remains on track to begin in the early 2020s.
Senator Eaton: So if the builder is selected by next fall, surely for the bid you have all the designs. Would you not have the designs? Don’t they bid on a finished design?
Mr. Muldoon: I don’t know specifically the details, senator.
Senator Eaton: I’m wondering why the difference in time between the acceptance or the choosing of the bidder, and then you’re going to wait another two years before construction.
Mr. Muldoon: I can’t answer with any integrity on this specific procurement, but with the nature of these major military procurements and the way they work, from the time of an award, it takes the winning bidder — and it’s all built into the sequence of events — a significant period of time to get fully organized, tooled up and ready to go.
Part of the process can include the final design and acceptance, which takes a period of time back and forth to work through the procedures before we will get to anointing the final design and being in capable mode to start delivering on the production.
Senator Eaton: When do you think they will be delivered? Do you have a target date?
Mr. Muldoon: I don’t have that with me. The construction begins in the early 2020s, which has been the published date that has been available.
Senator Eaton: Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Moncion: My question is about the Phoenix pay system, specifically the nurses, correctional services, and Coast Guard services category — in fact, anyone who has special shifts. There seemed to be more specific problems concerning these particular groups. That was one of the questions we didn’t ask when we were in Miramichi. Can you tell us about your work plan associated with this category? This seems to be the group that has the most challenges with Phoenix and the most costs associated with this part of the system.
Marc Lemieux, Assistant Deputy Minister, Pay Administration, Public Services and Procurement Canada: Thank you for your question. We are doing everything in our power to sort out payroll problems as quickly as possible, and we are sorry for the impact this may have for federal government employees.
For employees with more complex work schedules, when we reviewed the governance of the file, that’s where we included human resources in the portfolio, so we could deal with issues from HR-to-pay transactions. Time management is part of the human resources system. We are working closely with the departments and the Treasury Board Secretariat, as part of the integrated team, to find medium- and long-term solutions for dealing with complex schedules to facilitate the integration of this information into the payroll system.
In the meantime, specialized teams have been established in Miramichi to do more manual work and address the issues that are currently related to data integration.
We are also working very closely with the departments, as well as Correctional Service Canada, to find technical ways to integrate information, provide more training to people and better coordinate HR-to-pay efforts to reduce the scope of these issues.
Senator Moncion: Given that these three groups have very specific needs, has any consideration been given to completely remove them from Phoenix in order to find software that exists on the market and that can manage this file without having to integrate it into Phoenix?
Mr. Lemieux: We are really looking at all possibilities to be able to resolve the payroll issues at this time. Some software will be integrated upstream of the pay system, including specialized software for managing complex schedules. These avenues are also being explored through our integrated HR-to-pay governance. As you know, in the budget, there were also amounts allocated to the Treasury Board Secretariat for the development of a future system. I am convinced that these are issues that will be studied in determining a future pay system, namely how to better integrate it with the human resources system and the work schedule management systems.
Senator Moncion: My last question concerns the working groups, which seem to be very successful, because when you integrate them into units, it seems that all the checks were done and the final results were very good.
You mentioned that in the next few months, three more will be integrated. Have you developed a plan and, if so, will that plan be made public so that we can know when your work teams will be in place so that 100 per cent of departments are included and these verifications are done?
Mr. Lemieux: Indeed, we are currently developing a plan to determine how many joint teams we will need to serve all departments. We are working on this plan with the departments to see how quickly we can put them in place. Our objective is to do so as quickly as possible, while maintaining all specialized services. For example, we offer specialized services to people who work aboard ships. We also offer them to students. We want to maintain this capacity to serve more critical populations.
At the same time, we plan to create 29 joint teams to serve all departments, and our goal is to have all of these teams in place by 2019.
We work using governance integrated with the Treasury Board Secretariat, but also with departments. We are looking at what resources could be added and how we could train people more quickly. We hope to find ways to make the system faster because, yes, the results are quite good. From December to March, there was a reduction of over 20 per cent in the three departments served by the joint team and the pilot project, representing an 11 per cent reduction in employees who had pay problems but who are now receiving regular pay, compared to the situation at the beginning of the pilot project. We are still monitoring the pilot project and the results are continuing, pay period after pay period, in the same direction.
Senator Moncion: If I understand correctly, you currently have eight teams in place. You have five, and you are adding three.
Mr. Lemieux: At the moment, we have a joint team dedicated to three departments. This month, we plan to create four new joint teams that will serve 12 departments.
Senator Moncion: I have a quick question about the cloud. Where is your cloud?
[English]
Mr. Barr: The cloud is everywhere. Cloud computing is a great advantage to organizations like the Government of Canada because the data centres, the servers, et cetera, are owned, maintained and kept up to date by the cloud service provider. The Government of Canada pays only for what we use with respect to the computing capacity. In a way, it’s like a public utility, like the water that comes into your home.
Senator Moncion: I understand.
Mr. Barr: You turn off the faucet and you only pay for consumption.
With respect to the Government of Canada’s classified data, that will be kept within the boundaries of Canada, so within Canada or at missions abroad.
With respect to just more in general security, the Government of Canada only does business with cloud service providers that hold an internationally recognized security certificate.
Senator Moncion: Okay. In one of your comments you said “will,” so it’s in the future. I understand the classified and —
Mr. Barr: The unclassified data. In my opening remarks, I touched briefly on the fact that several months ago, Shared Services Canada started making cloud services available for departments for unclassified data, and there is no geographic restriction for that data. That could be stored in data centres.
Senator Moncion: Right now is it in the United States?
Mr. Barr: Unclassified data could be in the United States, Asia or Europe. It’s in data centres and servers around the world. That’s the nature of cloud computing. With respect to unclassified data, that’s what we’re leveraging.
Senator Moncion: I understand, but you could have the cloud facilities here somewhere in Canada.
Mr. Barr: That’s right. There are some in Canada that we’re leveraging, but also outside of Canada for the unclassified data.
Senator Moncion: Okay. Thank you.
Senator R. Black: We’ve heard about new approaches to work, strengthening IT security, infrastructure improvements and updates, and replacing out-of- date IT. Are you finding that the user experiences have improved, and how are you actually surveying your users?
Mr. Barr: Thank you for the question. At Shared Services Canada, we’re proud of our progress over the past few years in improving our services to our customer departments. A significant audit was conducted by the Office of the Auditor General in late 2015. Since that time we’ve made substantial progress. In one particular area we have established service level expectations for all the different services we have in our service catalogue, and we report publicly every quarter on how we’re progressing with respect to those service standards.
Also, in December 2015 — just after the audit — we started a monthly customer satisfaction survey, asking our 43 different departments what they felt about our services, the timeliness, the outcomes, et cetera. Our results back then, on a five-point scale, were 2.8. Just last month we reached a new high of 3.5. We’re very pleased with that progress. We know we have more to do. With the proposals that are in Budget 2018, for example, we’re pretty confident we will be able to continue to improve our customer experience.
Senator R. Black: Thank you.
Senator Marshall: One quick question for Mr. Barr. In response to one of my colleagues’ questions, I thought you said there were three categories of projects. I don’t know if I misunderstood you, but where are all the projects that you’re working on? Would they be listed on your website? Where is that accessible to me if I wanted to look at different projects you’re working on?
Mr. Barr: Earlier I was referring to the three priorities listed in our departmental plan, but we have 68 projects we’re currently working on.
Senator Marshall: Where would they be listed?
Mr. Barr: I don’t believe they are listed on a website anywhere, but there are no secrets about the titles or about the projects.
Senator Marshall: Could we get that? I find going into the government website and looking for information — there is not a lot of information — but I would be interested in seeing the list of the 68 projects.
Mr. Barr: We can follow up with that, absolutely.
The Chair: Before we close, I have two questions. I will go to Mr. Lemieux, and then to Mr. Radford.
Mr. Lemieux, I will quote from the budget that was presented in the House of Commons and then the Senate of Canada, that the government proposes to provide an additional investment of $60 million over two years beginning in 2018-19 to work “with experts, federal public sector unions and technology providers” on a way forward for a new pay system. So Budget 2018 announced $60 million for Treasury Board Secretariat to, more precisely, examine a replacement for the Phoenix pay system.
I want to share with you that when we visited the Miramichi Pay Centre, one of the concerns of the employees — not to say their nervousness — we heard was the question of how a new pay system would affect the public service pay centre in Miramichi. What assurance can we provide to the people, our employees, that the pay centre will stay in Miramichi? And the same for other satellites across Canada.
Mr. Lemieux: Thank you for the question. In reviewing what would be the future system, TBS will look at, as you said, all those factors.
At PSPC, our mandate is to continue to pay people using the tools we have. One of the commitments of the department is to continue with the pay centre in Miramichi. We see results coming out of the pay centre, but more than results, we see innovation, and we see people engaged in finding solutions to reduce the number of pay issues. They are very committed. We need that commitment to continue, and we need to continue to work with them.
If and when there is a new system, what we’ve learned from the current experience is that we need to do a lot of training, we need to do the change management, and we need to work collaboratively with our clients, the departments and the employees. Whatever the future will be, I could commit that we will invest in the pay centre to make sure they get the tools they need to continue to perform.
At this point, it’s going to take some time before a new system is implemented, so we continue to give tools, training and support to our employees in Miramichi so that they succeed.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Lemieux.
Mr. Radford, as I noted, and I saw you were in the public audience, Canadians have told me that the infrastructure at the border crossing in Atlantic Canada — as we talked to CBSA — particularly in Saint-Léonard, is obsolete and in poor repair. The officials from CBSA just told us that the border crossing in Saint-Léonard — and maybe there are others in Atlantic Canada — is owned by Public Services and Procurement Canada.
Can you assure us about this? When this will be transferred, is there a time frame, and what is the current status of that transfer, or those transfers, for Atlantic Canada?
Kevin Radford, Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property, Public Services and Procurement Canada: Thank you for the question. I had the fortune of being here and listening to our colleagues. There are actually five ports of entry in Atlantic Canada that are in our jurisdiction, or for which we are the custodians. So despite CBSA having many ports of entry across Canada, we still have five, one being in Saint-Léonard.
I asked my team, which works closely with the CBSA, to give us data on how much we spend on operating money and capital money on that specific site. Over the last 10 years, we spent $150,000 annually in capital expenditures on the Saint-Léonard facility. It’s also about $200,000 in operating expenses, which is to pay for the utilities, snow clearing and those types of events.
The negotiations around transferring that property have been ongoing for some time. I would have to get more information for you on the state of those negotiations, but it is not unusual for Real Property in PSPC to give special-purpose assets like library and archive preservation centres, for example, or a border crossing and turn the custodianship back to the custodian. We transferred some resources, property and assets to Library and Archives Canada recently because of the special-purpose nature of those types of facilities. That has been to mutual advantage to the Government of Canada as a whole. We’ll work with them, and maybe we can come back and give an update on that at another time, or provide some type of documentation on the state of those negotiations.
Very similar to buying a home, they will look at the asset, try to understand, and there will be an asset management plan, a building condition report, building maintenance plans. They’ll look at how much investment CBSA would have to put into that facility to turn it into a more modern, secure facility — perhaps total replacement. All of those types of factors would go into the negotiations between our two organizations.
The Chair: On the other side of the border in Maine, the U.S. has just invested in the last five years over $28 million U.S. for their new facility. As I look forward for the ones in Atlantic Canada, you could provide the information please, Mr. Radford, to the clerk.
Mr. Radford: On that note, while we look after our assets from a PSPC perspective, we also did about $2 billion worth of business last year with the other 26 custodians. It’s not unusual for Canada Border Services Agency to come to us for project management services, contracting services, et cetera, to help them with their facility.
The Chair: Thank you very much, witnesses, for your professionalism.
Senators, our next meeting is at 1:30 in room 257, East Block.
(The committee adjourned.)