Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue No. 6 - Evidence - Meeting of October 4, 2016
VANCOUVER, Tuesday, October 4, 2016
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day, at 11:03 a.m., to continue its study on the challenges associated with access to French-language schools and French immersion programs in British Columbia.
Senator Claudette Tardif (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Welcome to this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. My name is Claudette Tardif, and I am a senator from Alberta. I am pleased to be chairing the meeting this morning.
Before I give the floor to the witnesses, I invite the committee members to introduce themselves, starting on my right.
Senator Jaffer: I am Mobina Jaffer, and I am from British Columbia.
Senator McIntyre: Paul McIntyre, senator from New Brunswick.
Senator Maltais: Senator Ghislain Maltais from Quebec City, Quebec.
Senator Gagné: Good morning. My name is Raymonde Gagné. I am from Manitoba.
The Chair: Before we start, I would like to specify that the committee is continuing its special study on the challenges associated with access to French-language schools and French immersion programs in British Columbia.
The most recent data compiled by Canadian Heritage in its 2013-14 Annual Report on Official Languages indicate that 4,743 students were enrolled in French-language schools in British Columbia for 2012-13. Changes in numbers over the years is clear. Despite this growth over time, there are a number of challenges today when it comes to teaching in the minority language in British Columbia.
The Senate committee wishes to study the situation more closely. We are very happy to be here, in Vancouver, to hear from representatives of francophone organizations.
In our first panel of witnesses, we have Padminee Chundunsing, President of the Board of the Fédération des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique (FFCB), Pascaline Nsekera, Immigration Program Manager of the FFCB, and Pierre Rivard, Executive and Artistic Director of the Centre culturel francophone de Vancouver. Thank you for accepting our invitation to appear.
The witnesses' presentations will be followed by a question period. The question period will run for as long as there is time, and each senator may have more than one turn. I would ask the senators and the witnesses to respond as briefly and specifically as possible during the question period because we are a little crunched for time.
Please go ahead and make your presentations. Please limit your opening remarks to five minutes. Ms. Chundunsing, you have the floor.
Padminee Chundunsing, President of the Board, La Fédération des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique: Madam Chair, members of the committee, good morning. As President of the Fédération des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique, I will read you a brief on French first-language and second-language education in British Columbia, the context, challenges and community.
French first-language and second-language education is thriving in British Columbia, with demand far outstripping capacity, despite a political and cultural climate that at first glance would appear not to be favourable.
BC is a fundamentally multilingual society, with large immigrant communities, particularly from Asia and indigenous communities, all looking to preserve their linguistic heritage, albeit for different reasons and through different ways. This environment, and the sometimes sensitive relations between groups within it, can also have practical ramifications on French-language education programs.
For example, in May 2016, the Haida Gwai School Board decided to cut French immersion from its Skidegate school, where three languages — English, Haida and French — were taught. This decision, confirmed by the school trustees at a public meeting in June, appears to have been based on the goal of reconciliation. The school board chair read out Article 14 of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. It is worth mentioning that Haida Gwaii has two official languages, English and Haida, which explains why the Haida and francophone minorities have an urgent need to preserve their linguistic heritage.
The relationship between both official languages and indigenous languages can also be one of mutual support. The Association des Francophones et Francophiles du Nord-Ouest, a member of the Fédération des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique, has been quite successful with a trilingual flashcards program for children and teachers in the villages of Prince Rupert and Hazelton, made possible with the support of each village's respective indigenous communities.
Mandarin-language education programs bring up other issues: China's growing political importance, Canada's position as a Pacific Rim economic power, and recognition for an immigrant community by granting its language official status.
Countries, great and small, strive to promote their national interests through culture, including through programs to teach their national languages. Examples of this would be L'Alliance française, the Goethe-Institute and the Cervantes Institute. Regarding the Coquitlam School Board's Mandarin-language program, the curriculum was developed by the Chinese government through the Confucius Institute under a memorandum of understanding signed with the province in 2008. This relationship with the Chinese government benefited the school board financially.
Having Mandarin programs in a number of provincial school boards has sparked calls for the French immersion program to be abolished, claiming that Mandarin is more useful than French to BC children, since the province's future rests in the Pacific Region.
This utilitarian argument is behind what is sometimes heard from the Chinese community — that the community's demographic weight, scale of investments and links with China warrant Mandarin being given special status. In both cases, this approach reveals a conception of Canada far removed from one based on the two official languages.
More generally, we can say that this tendency of a large segment of the Canadian population to pit official languages policy against multiculturalism — and unconsciously, old-stock against new Canadians — which dates back to the 1970s, lives on and is enjoying renewed legitimacy in light of globalization. To counter this last point, learning French as a second language needs to be promoted as a gateway to learning other languages, tying Canada to the phenomenon of globalization, while also remaining a key component of Canada's identity.
The challenges? As we already know, receiving a French first-language education is a constitutional right, while learning French as a second language is not. As a result, they have two different statuses. Identifying with the francophone community is vital to the first, but missing in the second. Obviously there is a fundamental difference between the two in terms of intent. That said, both programs have certain points and characteristics in common, such as a significant decline in primary school enrolments over time, and a shortage of post-secondary programs in French, pushing students to continue their education in English.
We believe that efforts to develop and enhance a French-language learning continuum are vital to the future of the language, including support for early childhood education, adequate funding for primary and secondary programs, and expanded post-secondary programs.
The link between the visibility, health and vitality of the francophone community and French-language education programs is worth highlighting. For young francophones born in one of the provinces or abroad, having a community where their language is a daily reality is necessary to complete the identity-building process started in French-language schools. For young people learning French as a second language, having a local francophone community anchors their learned language in a tangible reality. Based on anecdotal evidence compiled by Canadian Parents for French Ontario, immersion programs physically located near a francophone community may have better outcomes.
Our province's francophone community, unlike many others across Canada, is not a local one. There is no city, town or neighbourhood with a significantly large concentration of francophones. This community, Canada's fourth in terms of size, is spread out across the province with a provincial average of 1.5 per cent. While not a local community, over the years it has become a community of interests, nurturing a collection of organizations, institutions, meeting places and events. These make up the backbone of the francophone community, and francophone schools are vital to its sustainability.
However, community associations and francophone schools are experiencing financial challenges that threaten the successes and progress made in recent years. Schools in the francophone school board need funding so that the board can carry out its provincial mandate of providing an education of comparable quality to that of the majority. Francophone associations need to see their funding increase for the first time since 2001. Because funding has been stagnant, francophone associations are showing signs of serious exhaustion, as seen by a reduced capacity to rise to new challenges, meet new needs and reach new target groups.
Francophone communities are, and remain, the federal government's best partner for achieving its official languages objectives. Their exhaustion should set off alarm bells for the government.
In conclusion, French-language learning programs depend on Canadians agreeing to a conception of Canada that includes two pan-Canadian languages, English and French, as well as indigenous and Inuit languages that are locally focused. This linguistic conception is worth all the effort and investment needed to maintain it. In the final analysis, francophone minority communities are necessary for the success of French-language learning programs, as the young people who pass through these programs are the future of Canada's communities and identity that has been developing over generations, an identity we will be celebrating in 2017.
Thank you very much for your attention.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Chundunsing.
Okay, Ms. Nsekera, please go ahead with your presentation.
Pascaline Nsekera, Manager, Immigration Program, La Fédération des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique: Madam Chair, ladies and gentlemen of the committee, good morning. On behalf of the BC Francophone Immigration Program, of which I am the manager, I would first like to thank you for your invitation. As a parent and francophone worker concerned about the survival of our community and the transmission of our francophone linguistic and cultural heritage to future generations, it is a real pleasure and a great honour for me to have this opportunity to share my thoughts on the challenges of access to French schools and French immersion programs in British Columbia.
Reflecting on this subject, I found that I could respond better in first applying to myself, which is, asking me the question, what were the challenges for me as a francophone parent, in terms of access to French schools and immersion programs? Then it was to reflect on my work with immigrant families, in regard to their experiences and challenges of access to French schools and French immersion programs. From these two reflections, I was able to draw three challenges, set out below in order of importance to me.
I would say that the first challenge is lack of space and capacity at the preschool level to address the need for "francisation'' of young children in order to prepare them to integrate into French schools or immersion programs.
The second challenge is lack of space and capacity at the school level to meet the demand, and sometimes inadequate location of schools that does not promote easy access to students and parents.
The third challenge is insufficient capacity and support tailored to the diverse needs of newly arrived students and parents to facilitate access, integration, retention and success in French schools and French immersion programs.
The first challenge is very important, in my opinion. We live in French in a dominant English environment, which means that we work against the tide of a strong assimilation of our children in the culture of the majority. Francization of children from an early age is crucial not only for the transmission of the French language and Francophone culture, but also to channel these children in the French school system.
Now, we know that the capacity of the system at the preschool level is rather limited due to lack of child care and kindergarten space to meet the needs of francophone parents. Although someone might say that the problem of lack of child care and preschools is fairly widespread, because it is a challenge also for English-speaking parents, I would say that the problem is felt at different levels and has more adverse impacts for francophones.
Here I present an example using my own experience of a mother of two small children, now aged five and seven. In my neighborhood, the nearest French daycare and preschool is at 47 minutes of walking distance and 20 minutes of public transit, and unfortunately the opposite way to my workplace, so only accessible to parents with private transport. For parents without personal transportation, the only option is to put the children in English-speaking daycare centres and preschools, which already sets the foundation for their assimilation at early age.
At five years old, a child who attended the daycare and preschool in English, even with the efforts of his parents to teach him French at home, will have less francophone linguistic and cultural advantage than the child of the same age who evolved in a francophone world. It may even appear to some parents that it is easier and advantageous to put such a child in an English school not to destabilize his learning. All this to say that the lack of access at the preschool level has a big impact at the school level, hence the importance of increasing the capacity and space at preschool level first.
The second challenge is that of lack of space and capacity at the school level. The reality is that the demand is greater than the supply both in French schools and immersion programs. The classes are too full and schools are insufficient and often poorly located. Currently more than 53,000 students attend immersion programs and 5,200 attend francophone schools in British Colombia, and the demand is a continuously increasing curve. In many instances, the distance does not promote access because these schools are in most cases isolated, remote or poorly located, which can be a substantial acrobatics for access for parents who do not have private transport. Given the enthusiasm of students and parents who wish to attend French schools and immersion programs, increasing the number of schools and strengthening the capacity of schools and French immersion programs is crucial.
Finally, here I put on my hat of immigration professional. Access challenges experienced by families and students of immigrant origin are real and special. Currently, the francophone community in British Columbia is the most diverse of francophone minority communities, with over 30 per cent of its population being of immigrant origin. The percentage of students of immigrant origin in school is higher in many cases. More and more, schools are welcoming a mixed crowd, not only culturally but also language-wise.
Without an ability to meet the students' needs for academic and psychological adaptation to a new and different school and cultural system, and the information needs and adequate support for newcomer parents and immigrants and families, a lot of immigrant children and parents choose the schools of the majority, which have more resources to accommodate and integrate them. This is especially difficult if we talk about encouraging francophone immigration that contributes to population growth and a revitalization of our francophone community.
In conclusion, the government's investment in francophone immigration should therefore be accompanied by a greater investment in order to ensure the access, integration, retention and success of newcomer francophone children. In addition, there should be a general investment for increased space and capacity both at preschool and school level, for schools and French immersion programs to accommodate the growing demand and the needs of learners and parents, who want their children to learn and live in French in British Columbia.
Thank you for your attention.
The Chair: Many thanks, Ms. Nsekera.
We now move to the presentation from Pierre Rivard.
Pierre Rivard, Executive and Artistic Director, Le Centre culturel francophone de Vancouver:Thank you, Madam Chair and honourable senators. Yes, perhaps there is a little confusion. I was not able to submit a written text to you. Last week in Regina, I took part in an event called Contact Ouest, which has been in existence for nine years and which, each year, allows me to meet distributors from the west, people from Manitoba, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and British Columbia. It allows us to meet as distributors, and to see artists, some from Acadia and from New Brunswick.
Then I had to go to Montreal to attend a meeting of the national steering committee for Unis TV, the new French-language television channel. I have been on the committee for four years; it also allows me to rub shoulders with people from all over Canada, including colleagues from New Brunswick and Manitoba, and from a number of other provinces.
Each year, my organization also plays a role in organizing a festival called Coup de coeur francophone, which began in Montreal, Quebec, and which has been held in every province of Canada since 1995. We do this by meeting in Ottawa each year in conjunction with an event called Contact Ontario, which also showcases artists from a number of provinces, but principally brings together distributors and educators.
I am telling you this now, because I am going to come back to it a little later, to show you how, in the last 15 or 20 years, I have been able to compare what is being done in education and what we are doing in British Columbia, to go back to the comments made by Padminee and Pascaline.
When I arrived in Vancouver in 1992, I was working at the Fédération des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique. I was responsible for government relations. Our biggest file at the time was a legal case that had been going on for seven years about our wish to establish a francophone school board in British Columbia. At the time, our francophone schools were run by English-language school boards.
So it was very difficult to have uniform policies or even to create a feeling of community, since we did not run our own schools. Finally, in 1995, following a Supreme Court decision, we were able to establish a francophone school board in British Columbia. That gave us an enormous amount of hope because we were perhaps finally going to be able to reach the level of integration we wanted for our children and to counter assimilation, as could be done in other provinces where things are a little better than for us at home.
Some things have changed. Some things are positive. For example, I can mention the construction of the École secondaire Jules-Verne in Vancouver. This is the first dedicated French-language high school in Vancouver. Previously, our high school students went to Kitsilano Secondary School and were integrated into an immersion program. As you know, in an immersion school, children speak French in class, but when they get out of the classroom, the reality is not at all the same.
What changed for my organization, for myself anyway, was the ability, after a number of years, to hire students from our own francophone school program for our summer camp called Camp Virgule. Camp Virgule is a summer camp for children from 6 to 12 years old that offers activities in French. Finally, we were able to hire students from our own school system, even to the extent of hiring students who had been educated in our system from grade 1 to grade 12 to perform in our shows,
So there are certainly positive changes. For the rest, unfortunately, what remains, and is easily seen, is a chronic underfunding of the francophone school board, which, as Padminee said, goes hand in hand with the chronic underfunding of all our francophone organizations. In our case, the funding we receive from the federal government has been stagnant since 2001. So, when you freeze funding to organizations for 15 years, there are consequences. Imagine a similar situation in a hospital or a school: there are fewer beds and classrooms close. Yet we have to keep going. I have to tell you that it is quite the challenge.
This chronic underfunding, in my view, creates the impression — and I am aware that I am going to use a word that is perhaps a little strong — that our community has a degenerative disease that causes the various parts that have to work together to no longer do so. To quote Hillary Clinton, it takes a village to raise a child. For the community and schools and everything else to function well, for networks to be created so that children can grow up in a healthy environment that allows them to live in French in school and outside school, and for collaborations between the school and the community to be created, is extremely difficult and well-nigh impossible.
You know, it is very difficult for us to approach a school, the school administrators, and tell them that we want to organize a show for them when the school has no gymnasium, when classes are being taught in portables, when there is inadequate funding for school buses. These are all the realities of our francophone school board in British Columbia, and we understand that schools are not able to respond to our wish to partner with them.
Whenever I go to Ontario, and I have been going to Contact Ontario for 15 or 20 years, not only do I meet distributers and artists, but I also see every school board in Ontario in attendance at that event. They have the resources in their school boards that allow them to work with the community to provide high-quality extracurricular services in their schools. When I see that each year, of course, it breaks my heart, because I know that here at home, we have nothing of the kind.
So it is perfectly understandable that another legal action has been launched by the francophone school board based on the fact that our schools are underfunded, which has an impact on assimilation and on attendance at our schools. I know a lot of parents who, at a certain point, have changed their minds, have taken their children out of the francophone system and put them either in immersion or in English schools.
This is a little like our private sector, if you like. In Quebec, as you know, there is a lot of criticism about the tight health care budgets, and people are saying that they should be able to go to the private sector when they are not able to get what they want in the public sector. Likewise, for us, when parents do not get what they want in francophone public schools, they go to another solution, immersion or English schools. That is another reality, unfortunately.
I did not provide a text but I wanted to pass on these few messages. In conclusion, these are the latest statistics we have received. We have 5,400 students in our schools whose first language is French. Though we have managed to get one more high school in Vancouver, we know that, at elementary level, the need is great and we need another school. For how long? We have been talking about it for 10 or 15 years, and we are still not there yet.
So, in closing, we have the École Jules-Verne. The francophone school in West Vancouver had to bring a legal action against the Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie-Britannique. They had no choice. It is a little ironic that we had to sue each other and the school board has to sue the province. That case has been ongoing for seven years. We may have obtained judgments in our favour at the Supreme Court, but it is as if the judgments are not enforceable, with the province still finding ways of dragging its feet.
As for the community, given our underfunding problems, we do what we can to try and do things with the schools. Basically the problem remains pressing, serious, acute. I hope that one day we will be able to say that we are not suffering from this degenerative disease, chronic underfunding of our francophone community in British Columbia. I am well aware of the challenges that other provinces face, because, each year, I have many occasions to hear my colleagues from all provinces in Canada talk about them. But I also see how far they have gone and how far behind we have fallen.
Thank you for listening.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Rivard.
The first question will come from Senator Jaffer, followed by Senator McIntyre.
Senator Jaffer: Thank you very much for your presentation. I found your presentation really important and really unique, but I was a little frustrated and I have a question for you.
As a senator from British Columbia, I am really frustrated because I agree with President Chundunsing when she says that French is important for learning other languages. I completely agree with you and I think we have to start with French. Yes, Mandarin, Punjabi, Korean are important as well, but bilingualism is our heritage. We are Canadian.
So for me, the major challenge for British Colombians, for the francophones in our province, is that, under the Constitution, they have the right to learn French. But others do not have that right, including my children. I appreciate and agree with the fact that the francophone community has that right, but my dream is for everyone, for all our children, to have the right to learn French because it is our heritage.
What are the next steps in increasing bilingualism in our communities, not only in the francophone community but in all the communities of our province, especially for our children?
[English]
What are the next steps? What do we have to do to become a truly bilingual province?
Some people will think that I am dreaming. I am, but that is my job as a politician. In the last few days I was very frustrated with both the federal and the provincial government support to increase the learning of French.
You three are experts in our province, so I would like to know what our recommendations should be to increase French in our province.
Ms. Chundunsing: Thank you for your question, Senator Jaffer. It is a very good one. As the francophone community we keep asking ourselves what is the next step.
As you can see in all our presentations today, the main focus is to have more space, more schools. In brief, it is more funding. We have been telling everyone, even the Official Languages Committee that was here a few weeks ago, it is more about the funding.
On the other side it is more awareness of francophones and how we promote the French culture, the francophones. People have to be more conscious that there is a francophone community in B.C. It is increasing day by day and we don't have sufficient means to keep that Francophonie alive.
The next step will be to have more spaces where kids can practise and further continue their studies and, even if it is not at school, more French places in society where they can continue to keep the French language alive. That is what we should work on further.
Mr. Rivard: To your very pertinent questions there might be a lot of approaches and a lot of things that could be done. I would take one example that I experienced in my tenure as the executive director of le Centre.
At the end of the 1990s, I think around 1999, I happened to have good contacts with the minister of the British Columbia government who was in charge of intergovernmental affairs. Once again B.C. was the last province that had not signed an agreement with the federal government to ensure that the provincial government would get some funding to provide services in French in B.C. within its own jurisdiction.
At that time the minister invited me to meet with him in Ottawa at BC House before he was going to see Minister Sheila Copps to sign the agreement. I remember he told me then, "I am going to push for the agreement if I get in exchange the protection of the bogs.'' It is a land area here in Vancouver that needed some protection, so there was some bargaining going on.
When the federal government is speaking to the Government of British Columbia and trying to get some files moving or get some agreements going, sometimes I wonder if it should not be a priority of the federal government to say, listen, we want to work with you on this, this and this file, but what is happening with the francophone community here is not acceptable, so how can we make this a priority?
Unfortunately I don't get the feeling that it has been a priority and I would recommend that. It is always a question of funding but if it is not in the heads of our federal ministers when they deal with their counterparts in B.C. then it is maybe more difficult to move ahead.
[Translation]
Senator McIntyre: Thanks to the three of you for your presentations. Individually and collectively, you all told us about the role that a francophone association such as yours plays in promoting the learning of French as a first language. You also talked about the many challenges you face in improving access to francophone schools, especially in the Vancouver region. You told us a little about the links with francophone schools, the links with francophile associations, and with French immersion schools.
Pascaline told us a little about the numbers currently attending francophone schools.
With all that said, I would like to hear what you have to say about two points that you touched on a little, but that I would like you to tell us about a little more. First, the matter of retention. How do you work to retain francophones in your systems? Could you describe for us the types of cultural and community activities that are provided in French? Especially in the Vancouver region, in Maillardville.
Second, how does your association promote French with immigrant families in order to attract them into French schools? In other words, Pascaline, what arguments do you put forward to convince an immigrant to enrol in a French school?
Ms. Nsekera: Thank you for the questions and, indeed, I will be delving into my own experience working with immigrant families. As for retaining francophones in our systems, I have to tell you that I work mostly with immigrants. We organize a lot of community activities. We have annual welcome days in French to bring immigrant families into the host community. We try to hold retreats from time to time with the host community in order to assess its ability to accept families or newcomers. So community connections are part of our mandate.
As for promoting French schools with immigrant families, it may interest you to know that I am originally an immigrant. It is very, very curious that a lot of French-speaking immigrant families want to register their children in French schools.
So, while I am not saying that there is no need for promotion, there is a greater need for information. How does it work if you put your child in a francophone school? Parents ask a lot of questions. Will it work? Will they have the same level of English? Is it better to register them in English schools? So we have to give those families information and reassurance, and provide them with ongoing support, because it is a new system and a new culture, and immigrant children tend to have difficulties adapting and to need accommodation in those schools.
As for promotion, I would say that the francophone school board does promote its programs, but, from my perspective as someone outside the francophone school board but working with immigrant families, I see capacity as more of a problem. We would like to register our children in French schools or have access to immersion schools, but they have no space or they are not in a good location, or everything is very, very difficult to deal with, given the realities of finding oneself in a new culture.
Ms. Chundunsing: To add to the answer on the retention of francophones, I think that more spaces have to be created, as the students in French schools do not have spaces to continue to practice French and live in French. So we are losing those children. We need to have spaces where those children could continue to live in French.
The promotion done by francophones may provide another good opportunity. When immigrants arrive at the airport — and I am also an immigrant, as I come from Mauritius — it would be a good idea to provide them with welcome kits with information on what association, French school or francophone school board they need to contact if they want to obtain services in French. However, there are no such initiatives. Welcome kits are provided in English at the airport, but not in French. So it would be a good idea to have those tools to really help francophone immigrants.
The Chair: Mr. Rivard?
Mr. Rivard: Under our organization's mandate, we provide educational, cultural and artistic community activities. We are trying to make sure that our programming includes entertainment for the school clientele, even for the early childhood population, aged zero to five. The challenge often comes from the fact that the francophone school board does not really have the resources for us to be able to create partnerships. However, other provinces, such as Ontario, do have the resources.
I will give you a very concrete example. We organize a 10-day summer festival in June, and we also have the Coup de cœur francophone festival in November. We are currently organizing a tour of a Quebec group, a male quartet called QW4RTZ. We are setting show dates in immersion schools, in their gyms, with 500 students per school. When we send something to francophone schools, there is no response. Even when we want to give them a show in the hall created at the Jules-Verne school, no one really takes care of that space. The school board has no resources to ensure that connection.
Parents appreciate the fact that we organize those types of activities. It makes them feel like they are sending their child to a school, to a system where a lot is going on. But we really have to work much harder.
We do take immigrants into account. For instance, we have had a show called the African village over the past two years at Coup de cœur. We brought together four African francophone artists from the Vancouver region and made the show available for free in francophone schools, as that is ultimately simpler than trying to settle contracts. You can understand that our resources do not always allow us to do that.
Efforts are being made, and I am still dreaming of a time when we will have two resources or one educational resource at the francophone school board with the mandate to create partnerships with the community, so that parents would feel that their children are developing in a rich school environment.
Senator Gagné: I have two questions. The first is about whether the Fédération des francophones is managing to speak or intervene on the community's behalf, with a single voice. Have you prepared a five-year strategic development plan for the community? An action plan for official languages will probably be unveiled next year by Minister Joly. What are you doing to rally the community forces around a strategic plan so as to focus your interventions?
Ms. Chundunsing: Yes. The Fédération des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique is an organization that speaks on the community's behalf, and we have a strategic plan that covers all the sectors, such as culture, education, immigration — a bit of everything. We work with the community and create the strategic plan based on needs. We can send you a copy of the plan.
Senator Gagné: It is probably available on your website.
Ms. Chundunsing: Yes, but we can always send it to you.
Senator Gagné: Okay. My next question may elicit more than one answer. How can we influence British Columbia so that it would convey the message that the francophonie is important for British Columbia's development, as well as for Canada? Finally, how can we influence political decision makers to deliver the message that the francophonie is important?
Usually, when strong messages are conveyed by our politicians, by our prime minister, things fall into place. So how can we influence them?
Ms. Chundunsing: With the new federal Liberal government, we have been visited by a number of politicians. We received Minister Joly and Mr. Gauthier. A number of public figures have come to British Columbia to have a look at the francophone community.
I think that more people should come to British Columbia to look at the francophone community and see how many people make it up, as the community is not a small one. Perhaps people do not realize that British Columbia's francophone community consists of 300,000 individuals who speak French and 70,000 francophones, out of a population of 4.5 million. So it is fairly visible, but they do not give themselves much importance.
So to answer your question, we have to work very hard on this.
Mr. Rivard: Of course, you have been told that our school system is severely underfunded. However, other school boards in British Columbia could also tell you that they are underfunded.
As the centre's director since 1994, I have acquired 23 years of experience and relations with my provincial government. I can tell you that, when I arrived, we had no funding, or very little of it, from the Government of British Columbia. Now, after having knocked on the right doors and demonstrated our relevance, our government is not resistant to the idea of bilingualism.
The opposition is not visceral like what we saw in the 1970s and 1980s with the Social Credit Party. Mentalities have evolved, and through our efforts to increase the number of meetings with our politicians, by inviting them to our events and our schools, they have a sense of the francophone community. I could name at least 15 francophone provincial organizations that have been created in British Columbia since 1995. Everyone does their job, so a number of public servants, deputy ministers or members of Parliament are becoming aware of the existence of that community, whose demographics are very different from what we see in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, where francophones have been living for four or five generations.
Our community comes from elsewhere, but 50 per cent of people in Vancouver were born outside Canada. We are no different from others. So there is some awareness-raising work to be done. That is our job. We have to do it. Our community and our organization are members of the federation. Our community has had a five-year strategic development plan since 1995. This is our fifth five-year strategic development plan. Of course, raising awareness within the provincial government is a priority.
You may think that having constitutional commitments fulfilled should be the easiest thing to do, but it is the most difficult task. I think this question should be put to legal experts. In the current legal case, it would seem that the government has decided to go back before a court of first instance and is thinking about invoking a notwithstanding clause. It is true that the French education system is not being provided with the funding it deserves. Perhaps a notwithstanding clause should be used. I think that the federal government has a role to play in saying that this is unacceptable.
There is some nice collaboration in that regard, even with the City of Vancouver. My organization is funded on an annual basis by the City of Vancouver. We did not have that before. So progress is being made, but education is one aspect where things are not going well.
Senator Maltais: Thank you for your briefs. I am from Quebec, so I am familiar with the language battle. I spent my life in another Parliament called the National Assembly. I have lived through five language laws. A war was almost on. Mr. Rivard, you are a Quebecer. You also experienced that, before we finally came to a reasonable peace in terms of language. I am not saying it is perfect, but it is the opposite of your situation. It was the majority against the minority — a completely different battle. It was the majority of Quebecers — 85 per cent of the population — who wanted to keep their language, their culture, against 15 per cent of anglophones and allophones who did not want to live in French.
Everything has changed. It was cruel, even in Parliament, where I lost friends, including an individual who came from Mauritius, my colleague Clifford Lincoln, a provincial member at the time. We were great friends, but he left when Bill 178 was passed. It was not easy. I understand your battle.
This is 2016. In 2017, we will celebrate Canada's 150th anniversary. I think that your community of francophones and francophiles — the difference should be made, and it should be added — must get itself noticed.
I am all the way on the Atlantic side, and you are on the Pacific side. If a frog is dropped in Kitimat, in the ocean, CBC does a three-day report on it. They never talk about you. I believe that a press offensive is needed, both on French networks and on English ones. Do not rely solely on CBC/Radio-Canada. Even here, you are close to the U.S. media, so go ahead. Do it to show that you exist. That is inspired by Jacques Parizeau's famous statement that he, too, exists.
So you exist; you are there. As long as you continue to be docile and to hope, nothing will happen. British Columbia's francophones are not part of a ghetto. They have no political weight. You are scattered throughout all the provincial and federal ridings. The politicians could not care less, as you have no clout. How to gain clout? Today, in the electronic age, you can counter the reports on frogs and get the media to talk about British Columbia's francophones and francophiles. This country has two founding peoples.
As Mr. Rivard said, 50 per cent of Vancouver's population, and even British Columbia's population, come from elsewhere. However, British Columbia was founded by two peoples — francophones and anglophones. We have our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and you should use it. That does not mean you should go to court, but you should invoke the charter regularly in your press offensive. It is the only way to have people talking about you a mari usque ad mare. Once you are constantly in the news, you will see that the situation will change. You can tolerate a rock in your shoe for a day or two, but it starts to hurt on the third day. Governments are sensitive to rocks in shoes. Unfortunately, as long as you do not bang your fist on the table, you will not achieve your goals. That is what the situation is. I have advice for you. You can see the difference.
How many Aboriginals live in British Columbia? Let us say that there are about 100,000 or 200,000 of them. Is that right? British Columbia's Aboriginal communities are talked about daily. When do the media talk about you? Why? Because you do not play the drums or make noise. You will not block Fraser River. You will not knock over fishermen. You won't do any of that because you are docile.
So it is time for you to raise your fist. We exist. We want to be recognized by our country. Our country has two founding peoples: francophones and anglophones. We are francophones. We are protected by the charter. Our rights must be granted to us immediately. Unfortunately, as long as you do not do that, nothing will happen. You will get crumbs. When people are docile, they are given bread crumbs. If they are angry, they have a chance to get the entire loaf of bread.
That is my message to you. I don't have any questions, as both Mr. Rivard and you, ladies, have explained your situation well. You have explained the situation very well. I understand it, as I have gone through it, in reverse of what you have experienced.
Thank you.
Mr. Rivard: Thank you for your advice. My reaction when I arrived in British Columbia was to say that we must do something, but oh well.
You talked about our docility, but I don't think we are actually docile. I am not sure that is the right word, but we are trying to be strategic in our actions.
I want to tell you that, when I arrived in British Columbia, I was invited to open line radio shows. If you are from Quebec City, there are radio stations here, as well. At the time, some people were still telling us to go back home. That hostility existed back then, but it no longer exists. I can tell you that we have come a long way. We have not fully established our linguistic peace, but progress has been made, and I want to stress that. I see it in my everyday life.
We, in our centre, provide French as a second language courses. Many people enrol. There is a thirst for French, a taste for French. But certain institutions are supposed to help us with that work.
You talked about CBC/Radio-Canada, the only Canadian television, radio and website with linguistic obligations. Ultimately, we thought that the corporation had obligations under the Official Languages Act. There have been so many grievances submitted by our community and other communities against CBC/Radio-Canada that the Commissioner of Official Languages decided to lodge a complaint with the federal court last year. Then we learned, to our great surprise, that the federal court ruled that CBC/Radio-Canada was not subject to the Official Languages Act.
I am thinking of a question for the Canadian Parliament, for you, the parliamentarians, the elected representatives, the members, the senators. The Commissioner of Official Languages reports to the Canadian Parliament. He is independent in his actions. However, there was a reason I got involved with the UNIS channel. The CRTC told Quebec francophones that, if they were not being well served by Radio-Canada, they could move forward. The CRTC would issue a license to a new television channel that would reflect what francophones are. I can tell you that my expectations with regard to this have been surpassed.
There are a number of ways to make noise, to take positive action. I think we try to do that as much as possible. Pounding the table when you don't have the demographic weight that the francophones have in Quebec does not give results. As you know, Radio-Canada does not accept criticism. I'm not embarrassed to say it in public.
Senator Maltais: You are right.
Mr. Rivard: Absolutely.
Senator Maltais: They are angels, aliens.
Mr. Rivard: Absolutely. I was once again rebuffed at a meeting on Saturday by someone from Radio-Canada when I raised the issue that the corporation no longer wanted to have a partnership with us. That's a new policy from two years ago. The person is someone in charge of Radio-Canada's regional services who was doing a presentation on "How is Radio-Canada contributing to the vitality of official language minority communities?'' I was cut off after 30 seconds, because they felt that criticism was impending.
Unfortunately, that's what happened. Fortunately, we are in the digital era and we can find other ways to be promoted, but I agree with you. Perhaps we will need to find other ways —
Senator Maltais: If you don't mind, I have one last point, Mr. Rivard. First, I love the Unis channel. But when the idea is to take funding from Radio-Canada to fund Unis, it's war. When Radio-Canada appears before Senate or parliamentary committees, its mission is to defend the francophones outside Quebec. Come on! It spends no money here. And when it pulls the wool over people's eyes, it's for trucks, not to defend the language.
Radio-Canada is useless here. I would be happy to cut the budget that it has for British Columbia. Let's transfer that budget to Unis, which is very good. I watch Unis, because I hear no disgraceful comments, since it's a federalist channel, and I get the news from across the francophonie. That's the interesting part. I watch the shows Ma caravane au Canada and Voyage de chien. That's interesting. Unfortunately, that's not the case everywhere.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Maltais. I think Ms. Chundunsing wanted to add something.
I just want to say that the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages prepared a report in 2014 on CBC/Radio-Canada's language obligations. If you haven't read it, I encourage you to do so. To be specific, I would say that Radio-Canada has certain language obligations, and that the Federal Court indicated that it does not have language obligations in its programming. So there are some requirements about the other aspects of language obligations.
Ms. Chundunsing: No, I was going to talk about Radio-Canada, but Pierre has already talked about it.
Senator Jaffer: I have a question for Ms. Nsekera. I listened to your presentation and I would like to thank you, because you talked about the community's challenge to send its children to French-language schools.
Yesterday, I heard that the children who go to the French-language school in Vancouver come from Burnaby and North Vancouver. We went to Surrey, and I was completely shocked when the director said that the kids from Chilliwack and Abbotsford go to school in Surrey. It takes them about an hour and a half, three hours a day, to go to school. That's unacceptable. How can that be changed? That's really unacceptable. I am truly, truly disappointed about the situation.
Ms. Nsekera: I think that's really very interesting. And we actually have allies. They are the parents in general. We know they are frustrated. You talked about frustrations.
I deal with frustrations on two levels. We talked about language obligations. We also talked about your dream of seeing British Columbia become bilingual. So we have those who are really claiming the heritage, the French-language culture, but we also have the anglophone allies who would like their children to learn French. Those are two different types of visions. So for the francophones, our wish is really for our children to go to French-language schools in fairly well-equipped settings with resources.
Yes, it takes them a lot longer to go to school. We have extracurricular activities for the francisation of children from an early age and to connect them to the francophone culture.
So, just as I said in my presentation, a great deal needs to be done. First, on the francophone side — and I think that our president Padminee pointed this out, and so did Pierre Rivard — there is still a lot to do for the francophone community, which is not a multicultural community, to be able to enjoy its rights as an official language community.
We can then also talk about immersion schools, which are very popular with many parents who want their children to be able to learn French and actually be bilingual.
I personally think this is a dream and a vision that I don't know how to achieve, because it will require action from all three levels of government. This is really about changing an entire way of thinking to define the strengths of being francophone.
So yes, we also know that immersion schools are not enough either. Yes, that's unacceptable. As I said, I don't have access to a francophone school, not even an immersion school, in my community. Yet I live in Vancouver. I can only imagine what it's like for people in Surrey or Abbotsford.
This is truly a thorny issue. I don't really have an answer, but I think mobilization needs to be encouraged. Raising awareness is a must. Perhaps the three levels of government need to take action. I think work has to be done on the machinery of government and on rethinking French-language education, not only in British Columbia, but also in the other provinces.
Senator Jaffer: Frankly, if children spend three hours a day to get to school, I don't think we are talking about a constitutional right. That's unacceptable to me.
But I have another question, because we are working together in the African community. We are African too. There are a lot of Africans who come here and whose first language is French.
What challenges do the French-speaking African community members face upon arrival in enabling their children to speak French? If there are a lot of problems, such as a shortage of schools, the commute to school, the lack of funding, which challenges does the African community face upon arrival in British Columbia?
Ms. Nsekera: Yes, thank you very much. That falls under my work, and it's a huge concern, because we are losing a lot of children of immigrants. In the case of immigration, people come from various parts of the world. But in terms of African immigration, we have had immigrants who are often refugees and, all too often, the children did not even have time to be schooled at a level that could be considered adequate to enroll in French-language schools.
So these are children who need more support, as well as academic and psychological adjustment. And I dare say that we don't have the capacity for that. Many of those children and their parents ultimately don't know which way to turn anymore. They will end up going to the closest English-language school, and that's how we lose the validity of the reason for promoting francophone immigration. In the end, if we focus on children who will go to anglophone schools, we are working against the tide. So we need to have the capacity to support those children psychologically and academically, and to support their parents. We need to keep them informed, to address their questions and concerns, and to support them, because they are also being integrated into a new system.
As I said in my presentation, these problems are more specific and felt differently than those of the parents who are already here. There's an extra layer; it's the layer of cultural, social and academic adaptation for immigrant children, especially African children.
The Chair: As a last question, could you tell me which recommendations you would like us to follow in response to the public hearings and our visit in British Columbia?
Mr. Rivard: I think it must be always difficult for politicians to hear people say that money is a major challenge.
We know that much of the funding for our French-language schools outside Quebec is in large part the result of funding agreements between the federal government and the provinces. We clearly see that there's a problem in British Columbia. If you have time, go to the Rose-des-Vents school. Did you go yesterday? You saw what is happening. That's unacceptable. We can't talk about a high-quality French-language school or education. I think this is obvious.
Unfortunately, we have to prove it in court. However, I would say that we need your support if possible to influence your colleagues who are also members of Parliament and who need to talk and discuss with the provinces the issue of funding services for official language minority communities.
But when the government sits down with the various provinces, it's not just a question of education. Sometimes, when there are transfers from the federal to the provincial level, French-language services are lost.
It also seems that, occasionally, there is a lack of rigour on the federal government's part in its follow-up in this sector. That might seem inconsistent with what is happening in the health sector right now, as the provinces are saying that the federal government all of a sudden wants to interfere by demanding accountability. The system needs to be reconsidered, because it's not only a matter of handing out money, it's also important to see how that is done. The Government of Quebec will not have an increase of 6 per cent, when its budget for health does not go up by 1 or 2 per cent a year.
Discussions are under way on some issues. But, I still wonder sometimes about the accountability in the case of education for our communities. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for the work that you do, because it's not every day that senators or members of Parliament come to see us, to talk to us and to see what is happening on the ground. It would be significant if you could require greater accountability in the funding of education when it comes to the envelopes given to the provinces for the education of official language minority communities. However, what you are doing today is very much appreciated. So thank you.
The Chair: Would you like to add something? Do you agree?
Ms. Chundunsing: Yes. I tend to agree with Pierre. I don't want to repeat everything that Pierre said, but what I would add is that it would be nice if the federal government could be a leader in language rights, by incorporating tighter language clauses in federal-provincial agreements, for example. In addition, it would be very helpful to us if the British Columbia senators agreed to be our voices to a certain extent.
Thank you very much.
The Chair: Well, seeing no other questions, I would like to sincerely thank you for your presentations today. You were right in saying that we are listening to you. We are here to share the findings from the public hearings we have held and from our visits.
I can tell you that we are happy to be here, because hearing your voices is important for us to be able to communicate the messages properly. I can assure you that what we've heard today will be reflected in our report.
So my thanks to the three francophone organizations.
The Senate Committee on Official Languages has repeatedly heard about the challenges of not enough opportunities to learn French as a minority language or as a second language in British Columbia. This problem is affecting both the French-language schools in minority settings and the French immersion programs. It also raises questions about accountability and the federal funding for those two sectors. Although the problem is not limited to this province, the Senate committee believes that British Columbia is a typical case that deserves an in-depth review.
For the second part of today's public hearing, we are pleased to welcome representatives from anglophone school boards that have immersion programs and from francophile associations. We are pleased to welcome today — and I sincerely thank them for being here — Glyn Lewis, Executive Director of the Canadian Parents for French, the British Columbia and Yukon Branch. I think this is the third time our committee has had the opportunity to hear from British Columbia and Yukon Canadian Parents for French in the last few years. So thank you very much.
We will also hear from Simon Burgers, District Principal, Languages and Multicultural Programs, Learning Team of the Greater Victoria School District, and Catherine Berron, School Principal, Dual Track Elementary School of the Surrey School District.
Welcome to the three of you.
The senators will have questions for you. It would be very much appreciated if you could limit your presentations to five to seven minutes, so that senators have time to ask you questions.
We would like to start with you, Mr. Lewis, please.
Glyn Lewis, Executive Director, Canadian Parents for French — British Columbia and Yukon Branch: Thank you very much.
[English]
I am going to speak in English just because it is always easier for me. I am also going to paraphrase the brief I have already presented to the committee which you should have in front of you. I find that will probably make it a bit more interesting if I don't read this verbatim.
I first wanted to say thank you for inviting us and thank you for being here. Obviously there are a lot of similarities in the dynamics in British Columbia and Yukon but there are also some unique challenges that we face in this part of the country. It is very appropriate and a strong signal that the committee has chosen to be here and to listen to all of these speakers today and tomorrow.
The context for this committee being here is that we are currently going through a roadmap review that is being led by Canadian Heritage. We have already made a lot of the points that I will be raising today to the Canadian Heritage Roadmap consultation process. I wanted to let you know that as well.
Before I dive into the context of the situation that we are facing here in B.C. and Yukon, I want to quickly summarize the history of our organization for those who are not familiar.
Canadian Parents for French has existed for over 40 years now. The first French immersion program was started in Quebec in a suburb of Montreal. It was during the Quiet Revolution when anglophone parents recognized that it would be highly beneficial for their children to be able to speak both French and English.
Up to that point anglophone Quebecers really didn't have quality French language educational opportunity so these parents in a suburb of Montreal, working with researchers at McGill, designed this pilot program called French immersion. From there word quickly spread.
An organization was formed with the support of Keith Spicer, who I believe was minister of state at the time. It helped to put some funding together and helped organize these parents and slowly community by community the program spread.
The program spread because parents in all of the different communities lobbied local districts and local school boards to create the program, to create that opportunity for their kids, because these anglophone parents in communities like Sioux, Richmond, Coquitlam and different places around Western Canada and all over Canada wanted their kids to grow up bilingual. I re-emphasize the dynamics of local parents lobbying local decision-makers to fight for bilingual opportunities in one of our two official languages.
That is the context to the organization and where we came from. I say that because I understand as Shakespeare wrote "What's past is prologue.'' It gives a lot of context to where we are and what we have been doing over the last 40 years.
We put out a media release on the situation in British Columbia today. Less than 10 per cent of the entire student body in this province is in a French immersion program. That works out to about 52,000 students which is pretty phenomenal when we consider that the overall enrolment in this province has actually been decreasing.
If I had to map this out for you and you looked at a chart, overall enrolment actually has been going down for about 15 years in B.C. — that is consistent around the country; it is a function of demographics — whereas French immersion enrolment has consistently been increasing year after year for 17 years in B.C. and Yukon. We are looking at two trend lines that cause different dynamics and different challenges, which I will get into.
Before I launch into some of the challenges we face I want to emphasize some of the incredible benefits of French immersion. We did a program or a project this past year. It was through the support of Canadian Heritage and Radio Canada. I partnered with Michael Tryon, Executive Director at CPF Alberta, and we searched for the graduates of French immersion programs. We wanted to see where they are now.
Through a lot of networking, talking with teachers and to parents, and going out and really doing that hard-core grassroots organizing work, we found that these people had gone on and done amazing things.
Some of them work for lululemon as the international brand strategist. Another woman told us that she met her husband in a line at a bank in France. My sister is another example. She did French immersion in Burnaby and ended up working for Air Canada and then WestJet. I also did French immersion in Burnaby. I lived in Montreal, met my partner there, came back to Vancouver and networked for a national organization that promotes French.
We did the project because we wanted to capture and share some of those stories and to recognize that all of these efforts and all this investment changed the make-up of the country and touched and changed people's lives in dramatic ways.
All of that great news aside, we face some significant challenges. Senator Tardif, I was walking past you in the hallway and I heard you mentioning some of the challenges I am about to mention in an interview you were doing.
The largest challenge that we face is access and specifically making sure that families who want to be part of this program can actually be part of it. One of our roles as an organization is to support parents, to work with local parents, to work with educators and decision-makers, to look at the needs and the demands, and to try to match capacity with demand.
In Salmon Arm, a community about four and a half hours just north and east of here, every year for the last six years there had been a line-up to register for French immersion programs. Every school district registers students differently. Surrey has one system. Victoria has a different system. Salmon Arm has a different system. In Salmon Arm it is first-come, first-served. They open it up on a Thursday at 9 a.m. and the first 20-22 families in the line get to register their kid.
What does this do? They have to do this because they know there are more families interested in registering than there are spaces available in that community for French immersion. Parents know this and every year they line up. One year they lined up the night before. The second year they lined up two nights before. The third year they lined up three or four nights before. Parents, grandparents and everybody else in the family got involved in camping out in front of a school district office to register their kids for this program, which obviously raises a whole bunch of problems and challenges for us.
First, who are the families who can do this? Who know about this? Who can spend two or three nights in a line up? What if you are a single parent and you don't have a husband or you don't have a whole family able to support you? There are all these access challenges. At the end of the day what happens is some families will be turned away and some kids will be turned away.
A second ago I told you about the woman who met her husband in a bank line-up in France and the person who is a brand strategist for lululemon. There are bilingual ministers, members of Parliament or senators who have gone on to strive for the highest offices in the land.
For those kids who are turned away we have created at the very beginning an injustice and an inequality because they don't have the same opportunities to achieve all of the same things as other people, as those students.
From a moral perspective and from a justice perspective I always find it troubling because I know what are the benefits. I know what these kids can go off and do. We work with the Salmon School District as we work with school districts around the province and say, "Look, here is all the demand that you know you have. What are you doing to accommodate that demand?''
I am about to explain that there are three typical challenges: classroom space, teachers and resources. By resources I typically mean books, library resources and things like that. To create a French immersion classroom those are the three things you need. You need a physical classroom. You need a teacher. You need the books and the resources.
The physical classroom as I mentioned in my brief is something that school districts can generally manage. I know Surrey is having a tough time right now because one of the few school districts is actually growing. For the most part if you have 22 students, which is generally how many kids you would have in a classroom, that school district has to put them somewhere. If the 22 kids are in an English classroom or in a French immersion classroom, the school district needs to manage that. Generally speaking with some foresight a school district can manage the physical classroom space issue. Again, I say with some foresight because if you do it at the last minute it is very hard to move classrooms, move schools and all that kind of stuff.
The second challenge we face is the teacher shortage. I mentioned at the very beginning that for 17 consecutive years there has been enrolment growth in French immersion all across B.C. and in Yukon. This means that those school districts need to open new classrooms and they need to hire new teachers.
We did a report about three years ago which I presented to Senator Tardif. It shows that 86 per cent of school districts in this province and in Yukon are telling us that it is challenging or very challenging to find enough qualified French teachers to fill those classes.
We sat down with the provincial government. We have talked to the federal government. One of the major points we are raising to this committee is that this is a huge problem. We need to look at a whole bunch of different solutions. I outline a number in the brief I presented to you, including better labour mobility agreements, enabling qualified teachers from other provinces to come to British Columbia, and looking at how we recruit teachers from abroad and how we recruit teachers and exchange opportunities with universities in France and in different places. Anyway there is a list that I outlined and I recommend that you take a look at it.
The second point I want to raise is about access is the funding formulas. The roadmap provides funding to provincial governments that then make that funding available to school districts. In that funding flow there are specific funding formulas and specific targets that the provincial government and the school districts are intended to meet.
One thing we have been asking for years is to set aside a funding envelope within the envelope that already exists to create an incentive for growth. I call that the carrot. The carrot and the stick is what we use to create a French immersion program.
The stick is parental lobbying at the school district level like in Salmon Arm or in Surrey to say that this is a program they care about and this is a program that the school district should provide.
Then the carrot is the financial incentive which no longer exists because enrolments have gone up every year for the last 17 years. The funding envelope has not changed and therefore we can no longer put any money aside and say there is actually financial incentive for the school district to create a new French immersion program. That is the second very important piece that we highly recommend to set aside in the next roadmap agreement.
To conclude my presentation, we believe that authentic learning experiences are very important. Especially in B.C. and Yukon we are very far from the access of the francophone centre. There are strong francophone communities and pockets of francophone communities in B.C. and Yukon. Authentic exchanges, learning opportunities, and time spent in Quebec, in France and in other native francophone or French-speaking areas are vital for students to be able to live, breathe and feel the language and the culture. They must be inspired by the culture and by the language to continue with their studies not just to grade 12 but beyond. Thank you very much.
Simon Burgers, District Principal, Languages and Multicultural Programs, Learning Team, The Greater Victoria School District (#61): Thank you.
I am Simon Burgers, District Principal with The Greater Victoria School District. It is my pleasure to represent a perspective on the challenges of accessing French programming, and specifically French immersion, from the Greater Victoria School District lens.
I am also a late French immersion graduate. I have been an administrator in dual-track schools and for the last five years as district principal I have managed all aspects of our French immersion program and language programs from a facilities perspective right to the hiring of French immersion teachers and providing professional development and mentorship opportunities for our current teachers.
Victoria has the largest French immersion program in the province by sheer numbers and participation rate. We regularly meet about 20 per cent of our overall student body enrolled in French immersion. Some significant challenges come with the maintenance of such a large program, the largest program in the province, and continual growth.
One of them is the availability of space. We have a dual-track school setting, meaning that community members can access an English program in our dual-track schools in addition to a French immersion program in our dual-track schools.
Ascertaining the availability of space is much more complex than an empty classroom in a building. When we make a commitment to a kindergarten child entering a French immersion pathway it is a 13-year commitment right through elementary school, space within that building, space within a middle school and then again on to high school.
For example, 9 of 27 elementary schools offer a French immersion pathway for our students. By virtue of this each of those dual-track schools encompasses a catchment much larger than its English catchment that feeds it or provides students for French immersion.
One school, Marigold, has the capacity on an annual basis to accommodate one to two kindergarten French immersion classes but it pools from a geography that encompasses eight other schools to feed it for French immersion only. By virtue of a dual-track setting and accessibility this poses great challenges.
There is an involved process by which we need to look at the changes in population densities, new housing starts, population demographics provided by Census Canada, the availability of space in our schools, catchments for our French immersion schools and our English schools, and a re-evaluation of boundaries to be able to continue to accommodate students currently in our program and new students entering the program notwithstanding the ability to continually grow our program.
Our kindergarten enrolment between 2009 and 2013 grew by 48 per cent in that span, which creates a huge bubble of students in terms of being able to project the accommodation of space in the continuum of their learning pathway in French immersion from kindergarten right through to grade 12.
A recommendation from the Greater Victoria School District would be to create flexibility within the federal funding envelope to apply for grants or a funding allocation by which school districts can explore the expansion of its French immersion programs and the availability of space. This requires coordination of the director of facilities and, as previously mentioned, very demographic information to make good choices for successful programming and the French learning pathway for our students.
The second challenge that we would identify as the school district, I know you have heard before, is the availability of qualified French immersion teachers. We see this as being twofold. First, Victoria, despite being a very desirable place to live in Canada, does not receive a huge number of French immersion teacher applicants. In addition, of the applicants who apply very few meet our language threshold.
This is what I want to focus on when I think about the accessibility or the availability of French immersion teachers in our province. Victoria has a very high language threshold. We rely on a partnership with the University of Victoria to broker a formal language assessment, which is the TFI facilitated through ETS Canada.
If you are a teacher and you want to apply to the Greater Victoria School District you need to first demonstrate your language ability before moving forward in our hiring practice. This is an obstacle to getting teachers in front of kids in a timely way for the start of a school year. It decreases the pool or the number of applicants that we would consider as qualified French immersion applicants.
This is further compounded by there is no provincial standard as to what qualifies a teacher as being a French immersion teacher with respect to language ability. Victoria prides itself on having a very high language ability that translates into the integrity of the French immersion program in the Greater Victoria School District when we advertise providing world-class education. What a challenge it is for a teacher stepping into the classroom not to have a mastery of the language to explore curriculum in a meaningful way with students. We pride ourselves on having a very strong language threshold. This isn't shared across school districts and there is no provincial coordination with respect to this.
This further creates fierce competition in hiring in June and through the summer for September across school districts, whereas Victoria has a language threshold that holds up the process by which we hire teachers. Those teachers, I have discovered year after year, get hired by other districts that don't have a formal language qualification and/or have different language thresholds.
We lose a number of teachers every year to other school districts, despite having a lightning fast response to teacher applicants and a connection with additional hiring rounds and special rounds for individual teachers to simply staff our program. We today in October a secondary school we are unable to staff with a secondary French immersion teacher.
In a secondary scenario we are looking for a French language qualification, a language ability threshold and in addition a specialization in the areas of science, social studies and French language arts or a French literature degree. This further makes it difficult to staff our secondary programs for students to complete their dual Dogwood and continue on a successful path in that continuum from K right through grade 12 to post-secondary.
A recommendation would be to have a provincial coordination of French immersion teacher qualification recognized by the Teacher Qualification Services, all post-secondary universities across the province and school districts.
We have received applications of graduates from some of our French immersion teacher programs who do not meet our language threshold. They believe they are qualified as French immersion teachers but are turned away from Victoria. This happens every year. The recommendation would be to look provincially and perhaps across provinces to establish a minimal language threshold and a common assessment practice by which we assess this language threshold.
This would expedite the hiring procedure for all school districts, level the playing field across the province with respect to French language ability and the integrity of our French immersion programs provincially.
When we think about accessibility and equity in terms of accessing language opportunities in a public education setting, it is not possible to offer a French immersion program in all of our schools. Some 18 of 47 schools offer a dual-track opportunity for students. In the province of British Columbia core French doesn't commence until the fifth grade. I spoke to hundreds in the last five years in my position as district principal. I communicated and have spoken to hundreds of parents through email, phone calls or parent information evenings. Parents who are looking for French language learning opportunities and the benefits of second language learning but don't necessarily want the commitment of French immersion for their children to study specialized subject matter like socials, math and science in a second language.
When we look at the attrition in French immersion in Victoria and provincially the hugest attrition is that transition to secondary school where there is a focus on creating pathways in bridging post-secondary opportunities, whatever they might be. Students and parents are choosing to leave French immersion by virtue of not wanting to study science, social studies, et cetera, in French.
Many parents struggle with the decision to enter French immersion or not. At the first introduction of their kids into a public school setting in kindergarten they often articulate that they want the benefits of the second language learning. Another recommendation would be to look at augmenting core French learning opportunities, introducing strong core French programs beginning in kindergarten, and again providing school districts with an allowance through the French funding umbrella to explore other French language opportunities like intensive French programs.
Strong core French programs alongside other French learning opportunities like intensive French programs could alleviate a demand in pressure on French immersion while simultaneously increasing French language learning opportunities for our students and community members.
Do I have more time? I could keep going.
The Chair: No, not for now. We will give you more time in answering questions.
Mr. Burgers: I welcome any questions.
[Translation]
The Chair: I would now like to invite Ms. Berron, please.
Catherine Berron, School Principal, Dual Track Elementary School, Surrey School District: Thank you. I will speak in French, because most people here speak French.
I'm representing the Surrey School District, which is one of British Columbia's largest districts, with 71,000 students and 100, actually 101, elementary schools, 19 secondary schools, five learning centres and three adult education centres.
In our school district, there are three ways to learn French: students can attend the French immersion schools, take the French as a second language program, or FSL, or attend schools offering intensive French.
In 2004, the Surrey School District became the first to offer intensive French. We currently have seven immersion schools. That is seven immersion schools out of a total of 101 that offer immersion classes or an immersion program. There are five late French immersion schools where students, unlike in Ontario, I think, can start in grade 5, 6 or up to grade 12.
There are also French immersion high schools, four of them.
The intensive French program was introduced in Surrey, as I said earlier, where French is taught very intensively for five months in grade 6, up until December. After that, it is one hour per day.
There are five schools that offer this intensive French course. It means that, when students reach high school, they are able to continue their studies in French at a higher level than other students who only took French as a second language. In other schools, French as a second language is offered from grade 4 to grade 7, and then from grade 8 to grade 12.
The challenges are the ones mentioned earlier. It is true, in general, that we have a great deal of difficulty recruiting and keeping immersion teachers.
About 20 years ago, when I started working as an immersion teacher, many of my colleagues were from French-speaking countries or provinces in Canada where French is spoken. Some of them remained, but very few. Many of them returned to their home province, primarily Quebec, when a number of language teachers were offered early retirement. That in turn opened the door to more language teachers and some of my friends and colleagues who were here because they could not find work in Quebec went back home, because that is where they are from, where their families live.
Recruiting teachers who speak French well and who know how to teach French, who understand the pedagogy of teaching French, is a huge problem in British Columbia and, of course, in Surrey also.
I can tell you, for instance, that three days before school started in Surrey this year, the school district was short six teachers. So we contacted friends who knew someone in New Brunswick or in Quebec, someone who was finishing their placement in Alberta.
A student who had just finished her immersion course stayed with me. Because housing was not a problem since she knew she could live with me, she accepted a position in the south of Surrey, at Laronde School. Such situations arise when we find someone at the last minute to take a class.
What we also see often — and I agree with you regarding the problems that school districts face — is some competition among school districts to recruit teachers. We encourage some graduates of the immersion program, for instance, to accept a position when they themselves had not thought about teaching French immersion. We tell them that if they want to teach science, say at high school, there are no positions for high school science in English, but on the French side, if they can quickly remember what we taught them a few years ago, they can get a French immersion job right away.
So we end up with people who are good teachers but who do not necessarily have the knowledge of French. We have noticed that over time the quality of French is declining steadily. These teachers want to work, so they accept the positions. If they stay in their jobs, our challenge then is to encourage them to improve their French. Alternately, if they accept the job because it gives them a foot in the door, after two or three years, many of them leave the immersion program and teach in English instead.
So it is a huge problem. I can tell you that my school, which is in a central neighborhood in North Surrey, is a two-stream school. Half the students are in the English program, while the other half is in French immersion. I have to say that three or four of our eleven teachers have very good skills in French. The others accepted the job offer because they were told that they could teach kindergarten to grade 3. So they justify accepting the job that way. This situation is become increasingly dramatic every year.
Moreover, quite recently, we have noted that many of the young teachers do not want to work far from downtown Vancouver. If they are offered a job in South Surrey, in White Rock, for instance, they hesitate because it is too far from downtown. What we are seeing with young teachers is that they are much more determined to live in central Vancouver and not in the suburbs.
Moreover, we have also noted that, in addition to insufficient knowledge of French, they do not know the culture. In the past, the language went hand in hand with francophone culture. This cultural component is increasingly missing now.
We do not always admit this to parents, I would say. Many parents think that, by putting their children in French immersion, they will also learn about francophone culture in Canada or in other French-speaking countries. That is less and less the case.
There is also the problem of resources. As Glyn said, there is a new curriculum in British Columbia right now and there is a real shortage of suitable resources for the students' level.
In Surrey, there is also a problem with capacity. I don't know if you heard on the radio this morning that, in Surrey, since our school district is expanding, we accept the equivalent of 1,000 new students every year, which is equivalent to one school per year.
That has been the case for the past 25 years. Parents would like their children to attend neighborhood schools, but there has to be enough capacity at neighbourhood schools. So the question is then where immersion schools should be located.
Last year, for instance, a new program, a new immersion school was offered in a Surrey neighborhood, at a location where parents had not necessarily intended to send their children. So that means that, in Surrey, the demand for immersion programs is not the same across the board. This is evident in South Surrey in particular. There were 220 students on the waiting list for schools in Surrey. When we wanted to offer a new program that was not in South Surrey, only six parents decided to register their children for that program. Each of the 220 parents was individually informed that it was not possible to offer an immersion school in South Surrey, but that another one would be opening in central west Surrey. Only six parents enrolled their children at that school.
The Surrey school board offered the program again this year and advertised a great deal because there had not been much advertising the year before. This year, the program started with 14 students.
That means that parents are willing to enrol their children in immersion programs but they do not necessarily want to have to drive 30 or 45 minutes to get there.
In Surrey, we have tried a number of things to improve the language skills of immersion teachers. I will conclude quickly by saying that the solution we came up with in Surrey is to encourage teachers to improve their French, and we offer workshops for them on immersion teaching principles and methods.
The Chair: Thank you for your three very interesting presentations.
We will move on to the questions now, and the first question will be from Senator Jaffer, followed by Senator McIntyre.
Senator Jaffer: Thank you for your presentations today. They were truly interesting.
[English]
I want to start with you, Mr. Lewis. One of the things we haven't heard this afternoon, and you would know this really well, I come from British Columbia. My colleagues have heard it so many times they must be sick of it. My grandson applied to 11 immersion schools and didn't get in. Then he was on a waiting list and happily he is now in an immersion school. I have firsthand knowledge of disappointment in all the things you were saying. We were devastated when that happened.
Can you expand, Mr. Lewis, on the issue of lotteries? You said it is unequal. You explained it so well. You didn't talk about lotteries. You talked about the first-come, first-served basis but to me lotteries are just as unequal. Do you deal with that issue and how are you dealing with it?
Mr. Lewis: Thank you for sharing your personal family story. It was interesting when I met with the two-past Canadian Heritage Minister James Moore. He told me that he camped out in his car with his family while he was Minister of Canadian Heritage to help get his nephew into a French immersion program. I thought that was a very telling story. It obviously affects a lot of families.
As I kind of touched on, the different school districts will manage the capping, as we call it, when the program is full in different ways. In New Westminster, literally, as soon as the child has a birth certificate you can go and register them for French immersion. In Salmon Arm they did it on a Thursday morning and it was first-come, first-served. I believe Surrey used to have a lottery system. I don't know if they still do. A whole bunch of names were put in a hat and then they just start plucking them out.
There are different ways of managing capping. All of them have their own pluses and minuses. Certain parents like certain ways more and all that kind of stuff. From our organizational perspective there is no good solution. As soon as you have program capping you are inevitably going to have some kid gets turned away. Whether or not you do it in a lottery, whether or not you do it first-come, first-served, whether or not you let them register once they have a birth certificate, all of those scenarios will lead to the outcome of kids getting turned away.
We don't get too involved in what system is most fair because it is really a question of most fair in the eyes of different parents. We try to focus our attention on is the underlying issue that the school district needs to work to accommodate that demand so that you don't have a grandson who is on 11 different waiting lists.
Mr. Burgers: I would like to add to what Glyn Lewis just described. In Victoria we struggled with this very recently. We have a French advisory committee where we have parent representatives in French and English, trustees, principals, and two members of Canadian Parents for French.
Victoria has first-come, first-served. You go to the school and register at your catchment French immersion school. Recently we started experiencing the camp-outs and the long line-ups. Glyn is right that it is really difficult when we are thinking about equitable access in a public system to a French language learning opportunity in a country where we are bilingual, where we have two official languages.
Where we landed was with a complex lottery system by which parents that are catchment for the catchment school are in lotto. Then we provide alternate choices which also go to lottery.
Despite a registration demand that far exceeds the number of kindergarten seats we are able to offer and everything in Victoria being only a 10-minute or a 15-minute drive, it is interesting that we today still have kindergarten seats available to parents. Often the conversation I have with parents is: "You are faced with a choice. We have 9 of 27 elementary schools and you didn't get the lotto number for your catchment school. We have a school five minutes down the road that does have space. Will you accept that space?''
Interestingly, irrespective of some schools having long wait lists we have schools with space. It comes down to parental choice as to whether or not they want to travel to access that school. Very much like Surrey we heard a westside-eastside scenario. In our more affluent neighbourhood there are more French immersion programs as a result of parental demand over time.
As a school district we want to look at the placement across our geography for equitable access irrespective of where you are living in the geography of Victoria. We landed on a blended lottery system that I believe has been more successful in creating access to schools and alternate choices in the most fair and transparent way that Victoria is able to manage so far.
Senator Jaffer: Thank you for being so innovative.
The Chair: Just as a supplementary question, Mr. Burgers, I believe you mentioned that it was impossible to offer French immersion programs in all of your schools. I can understand that all may be a big number, but why can there not be more schools that have immersion programs?
Mr. Burgers: We can facilitate that. It comes down to community consultation. I led the conversation and the district initiative to add a ninth dual-track elementary school three years ago called George Jay. To do so, we had to be able to demonstrate a historical demand from that community for the French immersion program to be viable once we introduce it. The school in which we introduced that program had to have space to accommodate a cohort over six years beginning in kindergarten, with the addition of a new kindergarten cohort every year to populate our program from K through 6.
To introduce French immersion in another school across town would limit access to English program students potentially to that school because that school would pool from a larger geography than its own catchment. We also need to be able to ensure the accommodation of registration for our regular program students to access.
Is it doable to add French immersion programs in other schools? Absolutely it is. It requires extensive community consultation and a demonstration that there is a demand for that school in that neighbourhood. I know that Surrey experienced that issue with opening a French immersion school and not having the numbers for it to be viable. Now I am hearing in a school district with a huge French immersion demand only 14 kids are registered in that kindergarten program. Careful planning and community input need to be had to ensure success of introduction of a program in another school.
Senator McIntyre: Thank you, Mr. Lewis, for bringing the Association of Canadian Parents for French to our attention. I understand it is a national network of volunteers. It has at least 50 chapters in the B.C. and Yukon branch.
I note that your association not only engages in promotion but also conducts research, compiles statistics and works closely with the francophone organizations in B.C. Could you very briefly elaborate a bit on the research and compilation of statistics as such?
Mr. Lewis: Thank you for noting that we are a pan-Canadian organization. I think that is really important to note.
The B.C. and Yukon branch is actually the largest Canadian Parents for French branch in the country by membership. We have over 7,000 members. There are about 25,000 members nationally. It is kind of an interesting dynamic in the B.C. and Yukon branch. It speaks a bit to the level of parental involvement there is in communities on the ground here, which is also why these programs are so popular and there is so much momentum behind them.
At the national level there is some compilation in working with academics and researchers to compile the research on a topic such as children with learning challenges and learning disabilities in French immersion. They will pick a subject like that and then they will work with academic researchers to compile all the research together and make that information available to advocates and to educators.
That is an example that happens at the national level. What we do provincially is more focused on local issues. About four years ago we realized there was this teacher shortage. We were starting to hear it more and more from educators and from teachers in the post-secondary institutions so we took it upon ourselves to commission a report.
I had two masters in public policy students from SFU who came in. They spent four months contacting educators and post-secondary institutions, trying to figure out: How big of a problem is this? Is it everywhere? Is it limiting the creation of new programs? It turns out according to the report that it is limiting the creation of new programs. Simon and Catherine might attest to that as well. That is the nature of the research that we conduct.
Senator McIntyre: Mr. Burgers, I note that in your oral and written presentation you have made several recommendations to the committee. I am sure those recommendations will be taken into consideration in drafting our second report.
[Translation]
Ms. Berron, I have noted the main challenges that you highlighted for the Surrey district. One of the challenges, of course, is to recruit and retain qualified French language teachers; another major challenge for Surrey is available places. Another problem you mentioned relates to growth, that is, parents' distinct preference for immersion programs, but only if the school is close to their home. Is that correct? Okay.
That said, and this is along the same lines as what Mr. Burgers said, would you have specific recommendations for the committee to consider that we could perhaps include in our second report?
Ms. Berron: That was mentioned earlier. In my opinion, greater cooperation is needed among all school districts, steadfast cooperation among all the school districts. Right now they compete against each other.
Greater cooperation with the universities is also needed. We need more qualified graduates and we know, for example, that Surrey is working very closely with Simon Fraser University specifically to meet our needs. There is also cooperation with other universities in Canada to recruit and train more teachers who could come and teach at our schools. In my opinion, there must also be some way of enticing francophone teachers from the rest of Canada to come to British Columbia.
[English]
Mr. Lewis: One example I always give when I get asked these questions on the teacher shortage and what we can do is that I graduated with two student friends who did French Immersion from K to 12 and went to Simon Fraser University. One studied geography. The other one studied history. Both of them then went to became teachers. Both of them became teachers. Both of them sat on teacher on call lists, underemployed for two years. Both of them got retrained and are no longer teachers.
I am not too sure what it is like in the rest of Canada, but part of the problem there is that if you look at the teacher numbers there is an abundance of them, especially in B.C. and Yukon. There is an abundance of teachers with backgrounds in social studies, history, some of the language arts and stuff like that, yet these school districts are headhunting for French teachers.
I use that story because I wish and I know my friends wished that they knew there was such employability that they would be headhunted and would find employment so readily had they stayed with their French through university. Had they gone and done an exchange somewhere and beefed up their French a bit they could have come back and became teachers. They wanted to be teachers and they could have chosen pretty much any school district in this province to work in had they kept up with it. I use that as an example sometimes.
Mr. Burgers: I want to echo that comment in that a number of teacher applicants that we receive in Victoria from French immersion graduates whose passion was kids and education didn't have the opportunity in post-secondary to continue with their French studies and augment their French language ability. They have gone through teacher training programs or had degrees in history and then gone to a teacher training program but they didn't have the opportunity to continue their French language learning post-secondary so they graduate.
In the exact scenario that was just described they apply for French immersion because teachers know there are jobs and they can pick any district they want to go to as new French immersion teacher graduates if they have that language ability, only to find that had they kept up their language ability they would transition very quickly into full-time jobs straight out of university.
This translates to teacher retention and recruitment and keeping the talent of our French immersion graduates in the province in our French immersion classrooms. This is where I make a recommendation in terms of coordination with universities. We have been working with the University of Victoria on this to make allowance to take French language elective choices and create awareness for first year students in education programs that (a) there are jobs and (b) here is an opportunity for you to continue your French language learning so that you are well prepared to enter the workforce. Then you are not experiencing the frustration as a teacher in an English program when you have this French language ability that is not quite there. Had you had the opportunity to continue with that you would be in a job.
In addition, we think about inclusive learning for all of our learners. If there was an opportunity for French bursaries for teachers to continue a specialization in special education and meeting the diverse learning needs in our classrooms, we would also be better prepared to meet the diverse learning needs of all of our learners in French and in English.
Senator Gagné: Thank you for your presentations.
I am quite aware of the challenges of teacher training. I agree that we need a very tight collaboration among the school boards and with the different faculties of education. I think that is part of the challenge that you face.
One thing that I struggle with is the fact that you are facing barriers in recruiting qualified teachers, especially math and science teachers. A lot of the students are leaving French immersion to take those courses in English. Parents probably think they have a better chance of being admitted to a university because of the fact that they are taking those courses in English but it is a double-edge sword.
How do you promote the fact that you can certainly succeed even if you are registered in a total immersion program and take your mathematics and your sciences in French? There are a lot of other cases across Canada that prove it doesn't make a difference even if you graduate from a total immersion program?
It is certainly a barrier but you are not graduating any immersion students that have taken up those courses in French even at the secondary or even a high school level?
Ms. Berron: It depends on the district. I don't know what is happening in Victoria but in Surrey, for instance, they do take math and science at the secondary level. It is true that we have a large number of students who drop after grade 7. There is a problem of transition between grade 7 and grade 8, especially for students in early French immersion because their parents that registered them in kindergarten didn't ask them.
We have a number of students who say that they would rather go to the high school at their catchment school. We do not have such a big problem of retention with late French immersion because the students themselves decide with their parents to go into late French immersion in grade 6. It is a bit less of an issue with late French immersion.
[Translation]
Senator Gagné: The fact remains, however, that the pool is much smaller.
Ms. Berron: Yes.
Senator Gagné: So how can you we help promote this idea that, in terms of personal development and the opportunity for the student to continue their postsecondary education in French and then work in French, they must take all their courses in French at high school and at the postsecondary level as well.
Ms. Berron: Yes. I think that those who want to continue doing that are doing so because they are attached to their language. So there is more to it than taking courses in French. It also means enjoying learning the language and about francophone culture.
What we often see with immersion is not only the difficulty finding qualified teachers, but also that not as much assistance is available for learners who are having difficulty. So sometimes we see these students change to the English program.
When I think of all the students I have seen in high school, they were the students who were enthusiastic, who wanted to learn more than just the language. They wanted to learn, but also to discover, share and live in French.
Senator Maltais: Ms. Berron, you mentioned the difficulty finding qualified teachers. Who assesses the qualifications of those applying to teach French at your school?
Ms. Berron: We rely on the universities. There is a certain number of students who complete their immersion teaching program and are available, so we can hire them.
When we hire them, principals with the school district conduct the interviews in French. During the interviews, the candidates are asked about their knowledge of teaching practices and principles, and also about their fluency in French.
Senator Maltais: You know, you are not the only ones with this problem. In Quebec we have the opposite problem, namely, finding qualified English teachers. It is often the chemistry teacher who, to round out his schedule, agrees to give two hours of class in English. It is a problem right across the country.
Ms. Berron: Yes.
Senator Maltais: I have a final brief question. At your school, you say it is 50/50. How do those children get along with each other? Invariably, they run into each other in the schoolyard or cafeteria. How do they get along?
Ms. Berron: Very well.
Senator Maltais: Very well? Where is the problem?
Ms. Berron: The students know that they are all neighbours. They are all anglophones. So half of them do the curriculum in French, the other half in English. At recess, they speak English most of the time. During extracurricular and afterschool activities, they speak English when we want them all together.
In short, at the three schools where I was the principal, there were no problems with the students.
Senator Maltais: And now you have no problem with the 50/50?
Ms. Berron: No.
Senator Maltais: Okay.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
In one of our reports, our last report, Aiming Higher: Increasing bilingualism of our Canadian youth, we made a recommendation about the common Canadian framework of reference. I am wondering if you are familiar with it and if your school districts are aware of this common framework that sets out standards along with, if you will, a description of reference levels, and whether that is something you have examined and whether you are involved.
Are you aware of it?
Ms. Berron: There is a common European framework of reference.
Mr. Burgers: The European framework.
The Chair: Of reference, yes. Do your school districts use the common European framework of reference?
[English]
Mr. Burgers: For teacher applicants, yes.
The Chair: Is it for new teachers?
Mr. Burgers: For new teacher applicants when we want to determine language ability we would accept a DELF certificate or a DALF certificate, which is the Cadre européen, as a demonstration of French language ability but not for our students.
The Chair: No, but what about for yourselves?
Ms. Berron: We had one of the helping teachers administer what is called the DELF to see what was the outcome of French immersion and what level were they able to speak at. We have been doing this just to get an idea.
The Chair: Just to get an idea of proficiency.
Ms. Berron: Yes.
The Chair: I guess your teachers as well as your students perhaps in some cases. In our study we recommended that perhaps the ministers of education should consider establishing a Canadian common reference framework. I am just talking about standardized and standardization because you brought up the issue of variances in competencies in linguistic ability in the teachers and most likely in the students because students are very dependent on the proficiency of their teachers.
Senator Jaffer: I am going to take a risk. Don't kill me or don't shoot the messenger. I have been struggling with this for many years. In the last few days it is really at the forefront for me. It is not meant as an offence. It is just working this out with you. I am not sure that immersion on its own is enough. Let me tell you what I mean by that.
I have a grandson who is in immersion. Happily for him many of us speak French and he gets exposure but what about the child who only learns French in a school environment, who learns French, speaks French, and learns French from other students who don't know French? I am trying to say this respectfully but there are teachers who are not as qualified as they are in the English schools in facilities that are not as good as the English schools, and it goes on and on.
I go to many schools in Vancouver and as you are a politician I feel I can ask you these questions. I go to these schools and I speak to grades 7 and 8. I speak at length with them. My French is nothing to brag about but theirs is even worse after seven years. I am not sure that is enough.
It is still better than nothing. I am not saying that it is not but I think a role needs to be played by the federal government in providing extra things. I get it that education is not federal domain, but there are other things like having more attractive programs on TV that are in French, having more everything as we would have around English like music, reading, and this and that. Immersion on its own is not preparing our children.
Even yesterday, having gone to primary school and then secondary school, in the end I didn't come away very comfortable with the levels in both levels. I didn't come away very comfortable. I feel we are raising the expectation of these children to think they will come out of there really fluent French speakers but they aren't.
You can be politely rude to me. I am struggling with this, so I wanted your input.
Mr. Lewis: I will be polite but I won't be rude. I think you raised valid points. About two years ago we hosted the French ambassador who speaks something like four languages including Mandarin. I think there is one other Asian language that he speaks. He went to a school in Richmond. He spoke to these little kids. I think they were in grade 3 or grade 4. They were having this beautiful conversation back and forth. There are differences school district by school district. There are differences student by student. An A student and a C student are not able to converse with you on the same level. This kind of connects back into this French teacher quality question that we are raising.
On the one hand, we are talking a lot about access. We are talking about making sure no child is turned away. On the other hand, we are hearing stories of teachers who don't make it in one school district but can make it in another one because the other one needs them even more than the first one did. You kind of have this race to the bottom in that situation. As Simon mentioned there are no provincial standards or set standards in terms of what the proficiency of those teachers needs to be.
Another thing I should mention is that the program is designed so that by the time that you graduate in grade 12 you are functionally bilingual. There is no claim of fluency. It is that you have the tools in your toolbox to go and live in Montreal and beef up your skills or to go and study in Paris and beef up your skills and to do all those great things.
It prepares you well, especially for students who apply themselves, but I agree with you that looking at the teacher shortage and teacher qualifications is a huge part of it. I also think that looking at opportunities for those children to be immersed and to engage with the language and the culture is vitally important.
Senator Jaffer: To both of you, I want to add something else. Yesterday, when we were at Winston Churchill, one thing the teacher said which was very profound is that you also have to prepare them for university. You also have to have sufficient English because at university they will need it for other courses.
When we send our children to French immersion where they are functionally speaking French, their English also needs help. They are not focused on English as children would be who are just focused on English. This is to both of you as people who provide education: What are your views on all of this?
Ms. Berron: When you say that the students in French immersion do not do as well in English that hasn't been actually proven by research.
Senator Jaffer: No, I am not saying they don't but they don't get as much English.
Ms. Berron: They don't, but the research shows that they actually do as well if not better than their counterparts in English. I mean as far as the research shows there is no problem with English. There is a problem with French if the French immersion teachers do not speak French well enough. I think it is because we are in a situation now where the demand is increasing and we don't have enough French immersion teachers. We end up being in a situation when we have French immersion teachers who should work on their French. For me, the solution is really just to be honest about it and to say that some of these teachers are fantastic teachers.
Senator Jaffer: What did you say?
Ms. Berron: They are really good teachers.
Senator Jaffer: Of course, of course.
Ms. Berron: They are fantastic teachers because they understand how to teach the language and they understand the curriculum. All they need is the opportunity to improve on their French. If we could focus on that and get support in doing this I think we would address many of the issues that French immersion is facing now.
Mr. Burgers: You asked a very interesting question. It is a provocative question as to the success of French immersion. I would agree with part of Glyn's response. When we look at French language learning it is on a continuum from K to 12. What is the goal of the program? Is it to create a francophone environment and a francophone experience, or is it to create a rich, meaningful French language learning experience?
When you look at the success of late French immersion students who start in grade 6, in our experience in Victoria by the time they hit the middle of grade 8 their language is on par with those students who started in kindergarten or grade 1. I have seen this through concours sponsored by Canadian Parents for French and visiting schools and being in many dual-track schools myself.
The question is a great one. It requires examination of other French language learning opportunities like intensive French programs, late French immersion programs and core French programs as to their success and maybe those of some European models.
When you look at students graduating in countries like Holland, for example, or in other countries where they graduate from public education with three or four languages and the ability to converse very successfully in multiple languages, we need to ask the question about increasing accessibility to French language programming and really what that looks like.
Is French immersion the only avenue? Is it the avenue where we should be focusing all of our efforts, or should we be taking a look at other learning opportunities that would address some of the issues like having quality French programming in all of our schools and not select schools where parents are having to make a choice to either travel across town to access French immersion or stay in their community?
Senator Jaffer: I want to say I just came from Africa where I work in the summers. I was really fascinated where they teach Swahili and English. One day it is just Swahili and one day it is just English. With that curriculum the children learn words but at the same time they are learning both languages and the strength of both languages. Of course Swahili and English are all around them as well so that is a different issue.
It is the same with Europe. I have a lot of experience in Belgium where if you are Flemish you learn Flemish, Spanish, French and English. Europe is so small that there is a lot of exchange with people. Our country is large.
I don't need an answer from you now. The Chair has indicated that we have run out of time, but I would ask you to look at our recommendation. Instead of calling it French immersion, I feel we have to call it comprehensive in the sense it is not just teaching the language but it is teaching more: visual arts, music, everything. To get a really sound education you learn in many different ways.
I will leave that thought with you and if you think of a recommendation, please provide it to the Chair. Thank you so much.
The Chair: Unfortunately our time has elapsed. As you can see we could further this conversation for many hours, but I thank you most sincerely on behalf of the members of the Senate committee for your presentations today. Thank you for the work that you do.
[Translation]
Thank you very much for your commitment to promoting French in British Columbia. Your efforts are greatly appreciated. I can assure you that the briefs you have submitted and the comments you have shared with us will be included in our report. Thank you very much.
(The meeting was adjourned.)