Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue No. 12 - Evidence - Meeting of May 8, 2017
OTTAWA, Monday, May 8, 2017
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 5:00 p.m. to continue its examination of Canadians' views on modernizing the Official Languages Act.
Senator Claudette Tardif (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Good evening. My name is Claudette Tardif, and I am a senator from Alberta. I am pleased to chair this evening's meeting. Before I give the floor to the witnesses, I would like to invite the members of the committee to introduce themselves, beginning on my right.
Senator Bovey: Patricia Bovey, from Manitoba.
Senator Gagné: Raymonde Gagné, from Manitoba.
Senator Moncion: Lucie Moncion, from Ontario.
Senator Fraser: Joan Fraser, from Quebec.
Senator Mégie: Marie-Françoise Mégie, from Quebec.
Senator Dagenais: Jean-Guy Dagenais, from Montreal, Quebec.
Senator Maltais: Ghislain Maltais, from Quebec. Congratulations, Madam Chair. There is a school named after you and I think it is a French-language school!
Senator Cormier: René Cormier, from New Brunswick.
The Chair: We are pleased to continue our study of Canadians' views on modernizing the Official Languages Act. The first part of our study looks as young people, and our meeting today will focus on anglophone youth in Quebec.
[English]
This evening, we are pleased to have before us at committee representatives from the Quebec Community Groups Network, Rachel Hunting, Member and Alexander Gordon, Member. On behalf of the members of the committee, thank you for being here today.
I note that you have opening remarks. I would like all senators to make their remarks as concise as possible when they ask questions, and I would appreciate it if you would respect the time allocation for your presentations. The Senate is sitting this evening and we are trying to respect the timelines here as well as ensuring attendance in the Senate chamber.
We would like you to be as concise as possible, but we do not want to miss out on the important information that I know you will share with us.
Alexander Gordon, Member, Quebec Community Groups Network: Good evening and thank you for having us here.
I am from Montreal, Quebec. I was born and raised in Pointe-Claire on the West Island of Montreal where I completed most of my education. From elementary school and high school I went on to CEGEP, after which I attended Concordia University and received my bachelor's in sociology.
In my time at Concordia I was active an active member of many students groups, such as the Arts and Science Federation of Associations, of which I was sitting president for one year. I was on the board of directors of multiple student-led organizations which got me involved with community service and gave me the opportunity to give back a little more.
Following graduation, I went to Nunavut and I was a substitute teacher in Iqaluit, at Inukshuk High School, which broadened my spectrum a little more. After that I came back to Montreal for family reasons but ended up getting a job at Youth Employment Services Montreal.
At Youth Employment Services we are definitely an employment-focused organization. I was doing special events and fundraising, but in my time there I was able to get a better understanding of the challenges and issues faced with employability among young people in Quebec. I helped them to pursue their careers and provided support services for young people.
I am a big believer in giving back to the community. This is the third year I have sat on the volunteer committee of the Quebec Breast Cancer Foundation. I am currently director of logistics with the Montreal CIBC Run for the Cure. In 2015, I was honoured by the QCGN and received the first-ever Young Quebecers Leading the Way award. That was a great honour.
Currently, I am working at BeaverTails Canada, where I do development projects. It is a fun place; I eat too many beaver tails. You have them down on the canal, so I am sure you have tasted them. As well I am a second lieutenant with the Canadian Grenadier Guards, a reserve regiment in Montreal.
In preparation for my appearance I have gone over the questions and reflected on and reviewed some of the ones previously posed. Some touched base with me a little more. You have a copy of my notes that I will refer to quickly.
As mentioned, having attended all levels of education in primarily English institutions, I can relate to the challenges involved with learning and living in both official languages. I have also worked in hospitality for many years where you very much need to be able to communicate in both official languages. I can relate to the challenges faced by an anglophone Montrealer growing up on the West Island in regard to the multiculturalism and the multicultural identification of Canada.
Having worked in the reserves especially, I can say that we are very much a diverse group of individuals. As second lieutenant I have a platoon and half of them are first generation and second generation Canadians, but they still very much identify as being Canadians. On the notion that bilingualism and trilingualism is an influence on that, I have some perspective. I feel I can touch base with a new cohort of youth today.
My motivation to become bilingual was more of the cultural aspect. Over the years I have worked primarily in English for not-for-profit organizations, but when it came to the hospitality service and volunteer organizations such as the Quebec Breast Cancer Foundation I worked primarily French. I have gained a better understanding and better respect for the cultural differences but how we together form the Canadian identity. We will go into that later, but they resonate with me as far as talking points.
The Chair: Thank you very much for your presentation.
Would you like to add anything, Ms. Hunting?
Rachel Hunting, Member, Quebec Community Groups Network: I can do a brief introduction. I am from the Eastern Townships, a bit farther down the road from Montreal. I was born and raised in a small community that was named for my family, the tiny town of Huntingville, outside of Sherbrooke, for those of you familiar with the area. I graduated from Bishop's University, also with a degree in sociology, as did my colleague in the room.
I am happy to speak with you about my experience as an English-speaking Quebecer growing up in the region, about living and working in bilingual environments and how I learned and cultivated French as a second language. I have experience working as a coordinator of a youth centre in the Lennoxville area that collects youth from the ages of 12 to 17 from the area and the more rural outlying communities. For the last five years, I have been the executive director of the Townshippers' Association, a large regional organization that works on behalf of English-speaking eastern townshippers to safeguard and promote their interests and access to a multitude of services. I am happy to speak to you about these experiences.
This evening, I would like to speak to you a bit about a document that was created in 2009 as a result of a collective effort to go out and get the input of a large number of English-speaking youth in the province aged 16 to 29 and ask them how they see themselves in terms of employment and where they fit within Quebec society, how they build their identities and how they negotiate the landscape that is Quebec.
Almost a decade later our intersectional table, which is made up of five member groups of the QCGN, has come together since the fall of 2016 to look at many of those same issues, to address some of the gaps in structure and services, and to figure out ways we can approach solutions and come up with new and innovative ways to support and help our English-speaking youth to develop their identifies and cultivate their heritage and their first and second official languages.
I think we can go into the questions. You have my notes.
[Translation]
I will be pleased to answer your questions in French.
[English]
I'm happy to do so.
The Chair: Thank you very much for your presentation. Though it was short, it is obvious that you already have very impressive credentials. Congratulations on your accomplishments. We look forward to hearing more from you.
Senator Fraser: Welcome to the Senate. Getting here in a time of flooding is a bit more of a challenge today than at most times, so we're very glad that you made it.
This committee did a study on English Quebec a few years ago. We looked to some extent at the difficulties faced by young people in particular then. As I read your notes, Ms. Hunting, it seems to me that very little has changed.
You say that young English-speaking Quebecers in the regions grow and exist within a context that does not allow for them to see themselves and their culture and heritage celebrated in the public space. If they don't speak French with absolute native proficiency, they find it difficult to succeed in the job market.
I really have two questions. The first is more sort of a factual one and the second is so what do we do now. For years, there have been some levels of criticism about the quality of the French available in the French instruction available in the English school system in Quebec. Has there been any improvement in that over the years, say over the past five years?
Ms. Hunting: I can't speak to being in the classroom in the last five years. I know that in my experience I went through all of the levels of English education that you could in the Eastern Townships in my region, so elementary school and high school. We had three different levels of French instruction. There was a regular course, an enriched course, and a mother-tongue course that used the same curriculum as the francophone schools in the region.
For whatever reason, coming out of elementary school I was placed in the mother-tongue program. The French that I learned academically, the grammar and the writing, I learned at school. I was fortunate to have francophone instructors who were dedicated and passionate about their work.
In schools right now there is probably more French education going on than there was when I was in high school. There are different options and different streams that kids have to choose from and are put into. They can choose to have different courses offered in French that I wouldn't have had the option to have, for example. I don't know about the quality of the instruction. I know that in some areas there are shortages of francophone teachers. I think it could be problematic to have anglophones teaching French. There might be a missed opportunity there, but my experience was quite an excellent education.
Senator Fraser: Looking at the numbers, it is still true that many anglophone parents send their children to French schools because they think that is the only place where they will actually get the quality of French instruction they need.
Ms. Hunting: Yes. I have encountered both. It is a question that I am asked often because of what I do for a living. I have a number of friends who are having children or have children who are about to go into school systems, and it's a concern.
My response is usually: In my experience if you instruct your children in the language of the minority, they will receive a deeper instruction in the language of the majority while they are in the English school system. The English- speaking population, especially in my region, has a very vested interest in mastering French. It is a door opener. It is a gatekeeper and it's really a key to success. I tend to look at it from a different angle than most, perhaps, because of my experience in the community sector.
Senator Fraser: The Townships since eternity have been a model of successful community integration.
The factual question: We are in the Parliament of Canada now, in the federal system. What I think we really need to know is: What can the federal government do to help?
My supplementary question is: Is it your impression, both of you, that federal employment opportunities in Quebec are as available as would be desirable for members of the minority community?
Ms. Hunting: I'm not entirely sure about federal employment opportunities. In my home region there is not a large number of federal employment opportunities. The more employment opportunities allow for people to use both official languages, the more positive is the situation.
For the federal government to really support the English-speaking minority and the youth growing up in those minority language communities, I think that creating spaces and allowing for the celebration of that English-speaking heritage and history and allowing for recognition of the contributions of English-speaking communities and the roles that they play in creating the rich, dynamic tapestry we have in Quebec are opportunities to reach out and to promote the second language.
There are opportunities in terms of translation that are maybe missed out on. It's a social media, dynamic and technology-based society right now. There are opportunities to show each other's culture through television, social media, and different applications. I am not referring to applications the way we think of them on phones but applications of technology that could allow for simultaneous translation or subtitles or anything to encourage you to discover the other in a way that is comfortable and that promotes and celebrates differences but also highlights similarities. Those are ways the federal government can support official language minority communities.
Mr. Gordon: I would tend to agree that one way the federal government could support these initiatives is access. As a young English-speaking youth I was given the opportunity to access this great francophone culture and everything that is produced. Whether through media, news activities, television shows, movies or writing, so much great comes from both cultures that is not necessarily as accessible to someone of the other first language.
As Rachel touched on, whether it's through current technology and subtitling or through the translation of major publications from both languages to each other, the opportunity and the access for youth to learn more in depth about what is actually going on would be a way to encourage it.
[Translation]
Senator Cormier: Welcome and thank you for being here this evening. I was very interested in your documentation and a part of your report, Creating Spaces for Young Quebecers: Strategic Orientations for English-speaking Youth in Quebec. I noted the issues you raised, including access to employment, the exodus of young people, and recognizing the contribution of anglophone communities to the development of Quebec and Canada.
My first question might seem a bit rudimentary. To be honest, I know very little about anglophone communities in Quebec. Coming from an official language minority community in New Brunswick, I have some major questions for you about identity. You are in the middle of the francophone community of Quebec, and at the same time you are part of Canada, where the majority is anglophone. I would like to know more about your relationship with Quebec in terms of your identity, if you can generalize, and your relationship with Canada. In other words, do you feel a stronger sense of belonging to English-speaking Canada than to Quebec and, if so, why? What do you need to feel that you fully belong to your society, to Quebec society?
[English]
Mr. Gordon: In regard to that, do I see myself more as an English Canadian or a Canadian or a Quebecer? I'm an English Quebecer. That's what I see myself as. When it comes to relating to the cultural differences of the other language, I think from a young age it has been lacking in my formal education and growing up in a very anglophone community in Pointe-Claire. Both my parents are very English speaking. I didn't have an opportunity to learn and be presented with that diverse culture.
As I grew up and started interacting with more individuals, especially in the hospitality industry, I met a lot of francophones, learned about the culture, went to the family events and saw the rich depth. If the importance of that presented to me as a young youth, it would have definitely enriched the possibilities for me to have that shared identity with them. Unfortunately, from my personal experience, I was lacking a lot of that from upbringing, so it is not as strong as it could be.
[Translation]
Ms. Hunting: For my part, I grew up in a region where, apart from the English school, there were not a lot of anglophone spaces or spaces in which to function as an anglophone. I have always felt caught between the two identities. My family, however, always encouraged me to mix with the majority community and to immerse myself in situations that were perhaps not so comfortable, where I was often the only anglophone. I learned written French, grammar and spelling at school. As to my spoken French, my slang, my expressions, I learned them gradually with the francophone community, with my co-workers or at a riding camp in Compton. I spent two weeks at that camp so if I wanted to talk to the others I had to learn French.
Knowing both languages has always been presented as an asset. It has always been an asset for me. I have been able to travel between the two identities, the two communities, but when I was growing up, I understood that being anglophone might pose a problem in certain contexts, and that I should work on my accent so that people wouldn't know right away that I was anglophone.
When we talk about identity, I'm a Quebecer. My heritage is very important to me and my family. We have been here since the 1800s. It has always been something to share, the pride, the heritage and the contribution to the community in general. I have never liked being asked to choose between being a Canadian or a Quebecer.
[English]
Am I English? Am I French? I don't feel like I should have to choose. If somebody put a gun to my head, I would say I am an English-speaking Quebecer, but it's not something that is separate for me. My Canadian passport is not different from my Quebec driver's licence. Each one belongs to which government is issuing it. That's how I approach my identity.
[Translation]
Senator Cormier: I have a supplementary question, to try to get an even greater understanding. I am an Acadian from New Brunswick, a francophone in an anglophone majority. So, obviously, the relationship I have with the majority in New Brunswick is as a minority to the majority. The francophone majority is in Quebec, in our case. In principle, you might think that, as a francophone, I identify with the francophone majority in Quebec. But that isn't the case for me, or for the people from our region. Obviously, Quebecers are our friends, but we don't fully identify with that majority. I ask you the same question because I really want to understand. Do you identify more with English Canada or not?
I'm thinking about the Official Languages Act and, according to the data, 14 per cent of Quebec's population is anglophone. It would seem that 1 per cent of that anglophone population goes into the public service, and that 50 per cent of people who leave Quebec now are anglophone. What is preventing Quebec anglophones, a group you belong to, from staying in Quebec? Is it strictly a matter of employment? Is it a stronger identification with English Canada? Is it about feeling uneasy with the Quebec majority? That's what I'm trying to understand.
Ms. Hunting: It's probably a combination of all that. It isn't easy to live and work in English in some regions.
[English]
In my region, which is a region that has around 47,000 people who identify as first official language English, you would be hard pressed to live and work in English in your daily life. You need to have a high level of French to be successful in terms of employment and opportunities.
For some people it's a decision that relates to employment. For some people it's a decision that relates to educational opportunities. They go to school somewhere else and for a variety of reasons they may stay where they went to school or they may go off to another school to continue higher education.
Personally, I don't identify with English speakers in the rest of Canada. I've lived in other provinces and I have never felt at home the way I feel at home in Quebec. I think that politically it can be very difficult to be an English speaker in the province of Quebec, depending on what's happening on the political stage.
It's not easy to be constantly talked about in the media or talked about in policy or not talked about in policy. That happens more often than not. It's difficult to see what you identify with as being an issue or a problem or something that needs to be solved. Depending on the generation and the support around different community members, it might be easier to move and to go to an area where that's not the political context or the daily context.
[Translation]
Senator Maltais: First of all, please let me congratulate you for your involvement in your community and for your experience. Mr. Gordon, I saw that you were in the Canadian reserves; congratulations. I am Honorary Colonel of the 62nd Field Artillery Regiment. We need people like you, not to go to war, but to prepare for peace. I am convinced that you play your role as a junior officer well, and I congratulate you.
How do you feel in Quebec? You're from Pointe-Claire, which is known as the "Gaulish village'' of anglophones in the francophone community. How do you feel when you walk along the streets of Montreal or Quebec City?
Mr. Gordon: I don't live in Pointe-Claire anymore, but in Mile End in Montreal. It's really a more diverse community, not just francophone or anglophone. People speak Portuguese and other languages there. Everyone is accepted.
[English]
It's a rich culture. It is very diverse. I feel that having enough French capabilities gives me confidence. Maybe I don't notice or am not aware of certain discrimination or challenges that other individuals face who aren't so fortunate to have the ability to at least get by in a second official language but I feel that whether I go —
[Translation]
— either in Quebec City, as part of an operation or exercise with my unit, or in downtown Montreal or in Mile End, I am really comfortable.
[English]
I feel fortunate to have the ability to do that, because I know that a lot of my friends with whom I went to school, university colleagues and peers, don't feel as comfortable with that.
[Translation]
Senator Maltais: Feeling in a minority is a fact, you are a minority. In another parliament, I experienced what it was like to be a minority francophone within his own political party. There weren't many francophone Liberal members in the 1980s. We were a minority. There was an unfortunate exodus of ethnic anglophones from 1976 to 1984, 1985. I differentiate between immigrants and anglophones from birth.
I was one of the people who helped to include protections for young anglophones in Bill 178 and Bill 87. As you mentioned earlier, now that the exodus is over, you are part of the generation that decided to live in Quebec with its advantages and disadvantages. Furthermore, you are increasingly taking your place, because Quebec holds a major position internationally, like the rest of Canada. Francophone youth your age necessarily have to speak the second official language.
I live in Quebec City, and there is nothing more francophone than Quebec City. There is still an Anglican bishop and, fortunately, his son attends the Sunday service, because the church would be empty. The same goes for the Catholic churches. Quebec City's English-speaking community has fully integrated into the French-speaking community. Of course, there are still some small villages, like Stoneham, but they are very few.
Do you agree that your chances of finding jobs are the same as those of francophones?
[English]
Mr. Gordon: I wouldn't think so.
[Translation]
In Montreal, I am able to speak and work well enough in French to find a job, but I think that there are still jobs that I wouldn't be able to do. I lived in Nunavut for six months, where I spoke only English and learned Inuktitut. That was a third language.
[English]
I was out of practice with my French and I found it difficult. I didn't get certain positions because I didn't have the French capabilities. It just wasn't there. For the French community, like you said the young French people today in Montreal, I have not walked in their shoes. Perhaps there are jobs that require more English than they're capable of doing. Maybe they don't get that same employment opportunity because they don't have the other official language.
It's important that they're both nurtured, taught and brought up so they have equal value. We're in such a unique position to be fully bilingual. It makes us ahead of the game, not just in a Montreal, Quebec and Canada but in the global market. It really gives us an opportunity and a chance to be competitive in a way that others cannot.
I cherish and value the fact that I can get by in both, but in Montreal I don't see that we're on an even keel for all opportunities.
[Translation]
Ms. Hunting: I would say no for the regions.
[English]
It's very difficult for a unilingual anglophone to find gainful employment. For somebody like myself who considers herself to have a native proficiency in French, I have to prove a bit harder that my language skills are real.
One thing we encounter in the region is:
[Translation]
— what is considered being bilingual for a francophone isn't necessarily the same when it comes to language skills as it is for an anglophone. It still represents a little more work, but I think what's important for Quebecers and the majority and minority language communities is the understanding that the linguistic threat doesn't come from the English- speaking community living in Quebec. The threat doesn't come from native-born anglophones. It is global English that affects us all.
[English]
It's the same kind of threat to Canadian identity. It's the same influences coming from other parts of the country that come to Quebec and influence Quebec society. It's very easy to lump in the English-speaking community in Quebec with that outside influence and treat them a little bit differently because there's that fear there of the loss of language and culture.
[Translation]
Senator Maltais: You mentioned culture. You'll agree with me that Quebec is caught in a squeeze between the United States, Ontario and the maritime provinces. The Quebec culture belongs to francophones, except that, if you have listened to the radio — Radio-Canada or another station — in the last 30 years, you will see that anglophone culture is well represented, whether it's from the United States, Ontario or New Brunswick. Many cultures connect through the francophonie. On a scale of 1 to 10, how compare yourself to Albertans?
Ms. Hunting: How so? What is the comparison?
Senator Maltais: In terms of culture.
Ms. Hunting: My access to anglophone culture?
Senator Maltais: Yes.
Ms. Hunting: Do you mean for an anglophone in Quebec compared with a francophone in Alberta?
Senator Maltais: Yes.
Ms. Hunting: There's more, that's for sure. However, the difference isn't with the anglophone Quebec culture that I have access to. I don't see it socially in Quebec. It's as if we don't have a right to be there. So the influence I experience is American or comes from outside the province.
[English]
There's no English Quebecer feeling. If I'm watching NBC, CBS or even Global, it's news from Montreal. It's not news from my region. It is not news from a region outside of the city.
Yes, the access is higher than it would be for a francophone in Alberta, I would say, but it's not necessarily the same culture, either, that I'm accessing.
[Translation]
Senator Moncion: I'm from Ontario, and I'm on the side of the minorities who, like you, had to learn English from a young age. That may not have been the case for you, because you might have had more choice than we do. I started learning English in Grade 2, and I am from an extremely francophone family. I find it interesting to see the barriers, the walls that exist around the issue you are raising, which are exactly the same as for francophones in minority situations.
I have always worked for a francophone company, in a francophone minority environment, and I have had to hire several people like you who spoke French but who faced certain challenges. These people, in an immersion situation, began to speak French remarkably, and many improvements could be noted in a short space of time. As you said earlier, when you find yourself immersed in a language, you end up learning that language, whether it's English or French.
However, I am impressed by the fact that 14 per cent of Quebec's population is anglophone, while less than 3 per cent of Ontario's population is francophone. You seem to have the same difficulties; do you interact with youth from minority communities outside the province? If so, do you have the opportunity to discuss the challenges facing young people who wish to be bilingual, whether it is in Quebec — even French-speaking Quebecers want to be bilingual — or outside Quebec?
Ms. Hunting: I experienced that when I was a coordinator at the Lennoxville Youth Centre. Some activities took place in conjunction with youth centres or youth clubs in Ontario. An annual outing brought together everyone who had the means to go to Ottawa; some 1,000 young people aged 12 to 17 gathered to speak about various youth-related issues. The language component was among the issues addressed, and it was most enriching for the kids to see that other kids — in Ontario, Alberta, Manitoba and New Brunswick — were experiencing the same things as them. It brings people together. The differences may pile up, but it's something similar.
[English]
It's grounding. I think it was a very enriching exercise for the English-speaking youth who don't necessarily have a lot of information or a lot of access to those communities in the rest of Canada. The more activities like those that we can support and provide to kids at a young age, the more success we'll have at building bridges between those communities, developing understanding, and supporting interest in those communities.
It makes me think of when we had pen pals in elementary school and we were learning about a group of grade 6 kids from Australia. You can learn as much about other communities across the country in the same way. I think those are really interesting and positive activities for kids, definitely.
Senator Moncion: You asked earlier about what official languages can do to bring more bilingualism to you, your province and all other provinces in Canada. When you're talking about access to English teachers or you have difficulty getting good teachers in your schools, the same problem exists elsewhere in Canada.
What can we do to move forward on this? We understand that Canada needs to be bilingual and it's your generation that is bringing that along.
Mr. Gordon: Before we talked about economic opportunities and employment opportunities. If you look at the North, when I moved to Iqaluit there was for an employment opportunity. I had graduated from university and a friend of mine was already living up there. The need for teachers, as an example, is much higher in the northern communities. They're in desperate need of quality teachers so the pay was exorbitantly high.
We're talking about having quality French teachers in the rest of Canada and making sure that we have quality French teachers in the English schools in Quebec and vice versa, quality English teachers in the French schools in Quebec. Making it more viable and having more awareness of opportunities across Canada to support the languages in these communities could be stronger as far as an activity is concerned.
Ms. Hunting: Simplified, accessible and inexpensive immersion activities and exchange activities, not just for the smart kids. That was available to us when we were in school. If we had a certain grade or if we were in the enriched program, we had access to different opportunities and cultural opportunities. The most vulnerable segments of our population are missing out on that access, those services and those opportunities.
Unfortunately, in my region those are the English-speaking youth that remain in the regions because they don't have a way to go down the highway and access an opportunity elsewhere. It really provides vulnerable populations with access to different activities and different options that show them another way or another possibility. It lights that fire at a young age to really introduce it in a way that's fun, not problematic or difficult.
You said you started English in grade 2. We had a half day of French starting in kindergarten when I was in elementary school. From the age of 5 all the way to Grade 6, I had a half day with two teachers and at least an hour moving forward with some kind of French instruction for my entire public school education.
When you have an option of having an English geography class or a French geography class, encourage kids to take the French one. It's the same map. It's just taught by a francophone in the second language. Accessible opportunities and immersion opportunities are the way to go.
[Translation]
Senator Gagné: Welcome. I really enjoyed your presentation. I think you are very candid about the description of your lives as young Anglo-Quebecers.
The study is on the modernization of the Official Languages Act, and we would like to hear about the different perspectives from various segments of the Canadian population. Listening to you, I wondered whether the challenge of young anglophones in Quebec is learning French or maintaining their English?
Ms. Hunting: I don't know if I would separate them. I think it depends on where the young person is. Maintaining English depends on the family situation. Often, maintaining the language is done at home, but we don't have much opportunity to practice it at work or elsewhere.
[English]
But I don't know if for some English-speaking youth you could separate those two issues. It would depend on a number of contexts. Depending on the socio-demographic and socio-economic statuses of those youth, those are really the factors that contribute to either the maintenance of the English language or the learning of the French language. In many communities, the more rural you get, if you don't have shoes to wear or food in your belly, learning a second language is kind of low on your priority list.
[Translation]
It's a problem experienced by francophones outside Quebec as well. The more rural the region, the greater the gap. I don't know whether I can establish a distinction between the two.
Senator Gagné: It's a bit of both, I imagine?
Ms. Hunting: Yes, it depends on the context and the opportunities available. I think that's what makes the difference.
Senator Gagné: Something else I'm interested in is your identity. You both described yourselves as young Anglo- Quebecers, and you answered the question promptly. Increasingly, we're hearing youth from francophone communities in minority situations outside Quebec say that they no longer describe themselves as Franco-Manitobans or Franco- Ontarians, but rather as bilingual individuals. Are you hearing statements like this from the young people you encounter in your associations?
Ms. Hunting: Yes.
Senator Gagné: Often?
Ms. Hunting: Yes, it's something I hear often at the Townshippers' Association.
[English]
They don't negotiate language in the same way that different generations do. If I use my parents and me as examples, I was after Bill 101. What my parents may have seen and lived as a loss in terms of language, access and rights, it didn't affect me in the same way because I was brought up in something that was already created and already existed.
For youth today, especially when they identify as bilingual, that's how language was presented to them at some point either in school or in their lives. They're not necessarily inclined to make a choice between French or English.
It's important in different contexts for different youth. They cultivate their second language and use them in different areas. It's an important skill set and it's regarded as a skill like anything else that could be learned.
[Translation]
Senator Gagné: I will continue in the second round.
The Chair: Yes, perhaps in the second round, because we have to try to keep to the schedule.
[English]
Senator Bovey: I have a short question with two parts. Coming back to the modernization of the Official Languages Act, how do Quebec's English-speaking youth see the future of the Official Languages Act? What recommendations do you have to increase its enforcement and promote greater recognition of the issues for English-speaking youth?
How could it be improved? What do English-speaking youth need the act to do to give them the currency they need to go forward?
Mr. Gordon: In regard to the Official Languages Act, today's Quebec youth may not be as well informed as older generations about the legislation and the official nature of it. Coming back to my earlier point, once again access is the way to improve or enhance the thought of bilingualism in both languages. As Rachel said, it is starting the fire at a young age by making it inherent in the education system across Canada that we are a bilingual country. We have two official languages we support. It's valuable to do this on a pragmatic level but on a heritage level it's important to us. Maybe in parts of Western Canada they're lacking the French heritage that is so strong here. In my experience in English Quebec it was lacking from a very young age, so access from a young age is the way to go.
Ms. Hunting: Talk about language in a positive way. Conversation about official languages should not be an issue. It should be about celebrating the official languages and promoting them in a way that seems normal.
I've travelled outside of Canada. It's always a little embarrassing when people say, "How many languages do you speak?'' When I say, "Two,'' they say,''What's wrong with you? We speak four, five or six.'' I say, "I don't know. I only had that one Spanish class in high school.''
It seems to make sense to offer youth in Quebec and in Canada as many tools as you can possibly offer them to be successful. If they're successful, Canada is successful. Everyone gains from that.
It is in finding new ways to talk about language and making use of the things that kids are interested in. I follow the official languages office on Twitter but it's a little dry. If you want to attract a certain segment of the population and get them interested, it has to be a bit shiny and a bit more fun. That's something that's easy to do. You could look into podcasts or infographs that are all the rage. You could find an interesting way to show why Canada has two official languages and what the act looks like. If I went into the youth centre tonight and asked 10 kids sitting around the table what they could tell me about the Official Languages Act, the answer would be that there is one, and that's as far as it goes. We need to get to the learning and do it in ways that interests that population.
Senator Bovey: You are looking at inspiration as opposed to legislation.
Ms. Hunting: That's one way to put it.
[Translation]
Senator Dagenais: I am not a member of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages and am here replacing a senator.
Mr. Gordon, I understand that you're from Pointe-Claire. I was born in Montreal and have always lived there. I can tell you that, in the 1950s and 1960s, the two communities were very separate. When I worked for the CIBC, I was sent to Pointe-Claire to learn English.
I would like to talk about Internet use among young people. These days, we talk about globalization. Now, I have the impression that the Internet world is more anglophone than francophone. Do you think that may present a disadvantage for future generations? Some politicians say that French is losing ground in Quebec, with the globalization and technology on offer.
Mr. Gordon: I think the Internet is mostly anglophone, for sure. English is the world's main language. I imagine that, even in China, a lot of people speak English because it is the practical language. No one forgets their first language, their culture, but English helps to communicate in the global community and to stay competitive.
[English]
It's not going to take away from Quebec. I think it gives French-speaking Quebecers a leg up to be able to communicate on an international level on the Internet. The Internet can take someone who is from a very small rural community across the world. The ability to communicate in English is only a benefit for them.
I respect that it can't take over the French language. I don't think it is, but I think from an English Quebecer point of view I wish I could communicate on the Internet more effectively in French.
[Translation]
I speak and write a little in French.
[English]
Grammar and conjugations are not necessarily my forte. I wish I had a little more skill set. I think it would be a benefit for them.
Ms. Hunting: It would be a mistake to legislate the language of the Internet in Quebec, absolutely. Whenever you legislate language in a way that makes it feel like an obligation that's imposed on you, it will not encourage the group that is being obliged to go toward the language they're being obliged to go toward.
[Translation]
I don't think anything is preventing anyone from putting more French content on the Internet. I think it's an exceptional platform that provides a wide range of possibilities, but I don't think that there should be legislation requiring that sites be drafted only in one language or another; bilingual websites are possible. It's feasible. It's a platform that can provide many more possibilities if we don't require, through legislation, that sites be done in one language or another.
Senator Mockler: Experience also shows us two things. I would like your opinion on this: at the rate we are going, if we do not watch out, if we do not enact legislation and make regulations, the use of our two languages is going to decrease across the country, especially French. You heard the comments that were made and the questions you were asked. What would your approach be, in terms of modernizing the official languages, other than by legislation? If you look at Canada's history, without the legislation on official languages since 1969, we would speak much less French in our communities. How do you propose going about modernizing the Official Languages Act and recognizing that Canada's two official languages are English and French?
[English]
Ms. Hunting: He doesn't give me the easy questions.
[Translation]
Senator Mockler: If I may, I certainly like your approach, but the fact remains — as we have seen in New Brunswick, Ontario, Manitoba and recently in other regions like Vancouver — we absolutely have to have mechanisms and tools in place to protect both official languages in Canada.
Ms. Hunting: Personally — and this is Rachel Hunting speaking as a citizen of the world, not as a representative of my organization — I feel that what I had in my childhood, education in both official languages from kindergarten, should be provided right across the country. If ours is a country with two official languages, the provinces should also use both official languages. Both languages should be available as part of everyday life, and opportunities to learn them should be provided to everyone. I never understood why my francophone colleagues began to learn English only in Grade 4. If it is possible in an anglophone school, why is it not possible in a francophone school? It is something that can be done across the country.
[English]
It's not difficult to work it into your curriculum if that is the orientation of the act and of the country. If we really have two official languages then we have opportunities to actually do what we don't take advantage of now.
The Chair: Ms. Hunting, if there are other thoughts you want to send to our committee based on the questions, perhaps something else that you wish you had answered to a question, please feel free to send them.
Ms. Hunting: Sure.
[Translation]
Senator Cormier: Let me call on your imagination. You said that promoting the official languages needs to be more inspiring, less dry. You talk a lot about the advantages the two official languages provide in terms of linguistic ability. But if you had to promote both official languages beyond the fact that they provide linguistic ability, what would you say? Imagine you were somewhere else in the world and you were asked why it is an advantage to speak both official languages in Canada, what would you say?
Ms. Hunting: For me, it is learning about francophone culture. It has allowed me to plunge into a culture different from mine and to discover something really interesting and really different from my own experience, from family get- togethers at Christmas and so on. I've had the opportunity to hang out with people.
[English]
I had some francophone boyfriends growing up. Their Christmas, cookouts, large family parties, interactions, songs, food, and all the amazing experiences tI took part in because I had access to that language community, are opportunities that aren't to be missed. That's what I talk about when I am away from Quebec.
I'm always saying, "Don't attention to what's in the media. That belongs to the politicians.'' What is going on in everyday life is the really amazing stuff and culturally rich experiences. We don't talk enough about them. What the world sees is not the best of what is going on in our communities, in my opinion.
Senator Fraser: You can answer this in writing; in fact, please do.
Since the beginning, English Quebec has received vastly less funding from Ottawa per capita than francophone minorities outside Quebec. If there were more money, I would like you to give me a list of things you would be able to do. This is particularly for the townshippers but also for specifics.
For example, this year you had to cancel Townshippers' Day. That is their big event, and it's gone because you didn't have enough volunteers. Would more funding have helped? Specifically, what would you do with more money if we could extract more money for you?
Ms. Hunting: There is no limit to the list, right?
The Chair: I will leave you to reflect on Senator Fraser's questions. If you could get back to our committee via the clerk, that would be most appreciated.
Our time has come to an end, and I am sure you can see by the questions of our senators that they would have liked to have dialogued with you much longer.
We thank you for your presentation. Your testimony was well presented. You are articulate young people and you presented your thoughts with ease and confidence.
[Translation]
Thank you for joining us. It bodes well for the future of our society, because you are great representatives of young Anglo-Quebecers and Canadian citizens who are, shall we say, somewhat younger than we are.
We now move to the second part of our meeting this evening and welcome two new witnesses.
[English]
We are pleased to welcome from the Youth Employment Services Foundation, Mr. Mario Clarke, Director, Entrepreneurship Program, and Ms. Sarah Lukassen, Youth Coordinator.
On behalf of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages, welcome. We would ask you to make your presentations and then senators will ask you questions.
Mario Clarke, Director, Entrepreneurship Program, Youth Employment Services Foundation: Good evening, members of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. Thank you for inviting us to speak on behalf of Youth Employment Services.
I am originally from the Magdalen Islands, better known as Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine. I had to leave my community to get educated. I had to come to Montreal and then I studied in Europe, to come back to my province. I will be able to speak to you, being a member of the English-speaking community, from both a rural and urban perspective.
First, I will speak about our organization and some of the issues being faced by OLMC youth regarding economic development before I pass it over to my colleague Sarah.
Who are we? We help people start successful careers for themselves and their community. YES, Youth Employment Services, is a provincial not-for-profit charity located in Montreal. Its mission is to enrich the community by providing English-language services to help people find jobs and start small and medium size businesses.
We were founded in 1993 by a group of concerned leaders from the business, education and corporate communities in response to the youth exodus and in recognition that employment was a major strategy in addressing retention. Retention and renewal is still our primary mission and part of every program or activity we engage in.
We see over 4,000 people annually from across the province, both at our centre or in communities such as the Eastern Townships, the Gaspé or the Côte-Nord. We do this by providing over 1,200 workshops and holding events and conferences. We do research and publications. We provide over 7,000 coaching and counselling sessions annually. We provide mentorship matches and internship programs. Of course this would not be possible without volunteers, a variety of partners and funders, but especially the Official Languages Action Plan.
Whom do we serve? It has changed over the years. Currently, 69 per cent of our clients are English-speaking as a mother tongue; 11 per cent are French-speaking; 20 per cent speak a language other than English or French; 36 per cent come from different countries; 26 per cent have a CEGEP, trade school or high school degree; 49 per cent have university degrees; and 25 per cent have masters or Ph.Ds.
With this diversity the experiences of youth range. There are some commonalties which we will speak about, but one of the projects that highlight these stories or experiences is a project we called Youth Voices: Community Talks Employment.
In 2015, we broadened the conversation about what it's like to navigate today's job market in Quebec as an English speaker. It gave hundreds of youth the opportunity to share their personal stories about finding employment. We set up video booths, did surveys and created a social media campaign. It resulted in a 25-minute short video snippet on YouTube and a 17-minute documentary we launched at the Scotiabank Theatre in downtown Montreal. The goal was to create more dialogue among the government, employers, unemployed youth, not-for-profit and educational institutions. I welcome you to go to our YouTube channel and check it out.
Some of the highlights I want to bring up is that 49 per cent of the youth identified themselves as English and French again, so it is a pretty good majority; 79 per cent of the youth considered leaving Quebec for employment; 68 per cent of youth considered themselves to be underemployed; and 58 per cent considered language to be the main challenge when applying for a job.
On areas of concern for the OLMC youth, as a member of the English-speaking community youth will testify that they face special minority language challenges due to Quebec's complex history and its official language status of French which defends itself against the threat of the English language. Being an English speaker is not always viewed as a cause for celebration or embraced as an economic value and as part of Quebec's greater identity.
With that being said, a spirit of optimism has begun to prevail among English-speaking youth as they want to break down old stereotypes, identify common ground, and create stronger links with the French community. There is a desire or a need to be able to participate in both official languages where one language does not impede on the other. The challenge is to build a sustainable community and create conditions that will empower both languages to stay in Quebec and thrive. In our work, economic integration is essential for this retention and the health of our community.
I would like to talk about youth unemployment. Unemployment is a huge issue in Quebec. The stats indicate the youth unemployment rate is higher for the English-speaking community at 16.7 per cent compared to its French- speaking community at 12 per cent. Entrepreneurship is an integral part of economic integration as 92 per cent of employment is created by SMEs, but lack of English documentation, support services and language laws have created certain challenges.
New arrivals are now forming a greater proportion of our community, but there is a lack of English language services again and English language training compared to the French.
In the area of the arts, artists contribute to the vitality, the sense of belonging and the economic well-being of our community. There are challenges such as institutional strength, education and a decline in traditional media as well as artistic business training.
These are issues we are working toward resolving.
Sarah Lukassen, Youth Coordinator, Youth Employment Services Foundation: Thank you for the invitation to appear before you. This is an honour. I am a little nervous so bear with me.
I currently work for YES as a fundraising coordinator, but for the past few months I have been coordinating an English-speaking youth project. Its mission is to promote English language services to youth across Quebec, particularly in more isolated regions.
To give you a better sense of who I am and what has shaped me, I thought I would share a brief background. I am an anglophone raised by a single mom in a small town off island called Chateauguay. This small town has about 45,000 people, 60 per cent of whom are French speakers. Yet Chateauguay has traditionally had one of the highest proportions of English speakers in the Montérégie region.
Growing up, I stayed in that protected and very proud bubble. Throughout my education from preschool to grad school I attended major English institutions. However, as most parents want better for their children, my mother ensured that I was in bilingual programs. I graduated from high school with honours in French. Yet, I seldomly used French outside of my school. In terms of socialization it was quite seldom.
The first time I became acutely aware of the necessity of linguistic duality is when I crossed the Mercier Bridge and stepped out into the world, or in my case Montreal, as a young adult in CEGEP looking for a job. I thought my accent wasn't perfect but I did speak French so I would be fine.
Unlike many of my peers whose opportunities are limited by the lack of their proficiency and the insecurity in their capabilities, I was luckily able to find a job in downtown Montreal. This was really the first time I was truly immersed with francophones. It was also the first time in my life I was confronted by the linguistic tensions, the politics and the challenges of serving the public in your second language. There were many instances when it didn't matter how well I spoke French or how well I served a customer or how big my smile was. There always seemed to be the insecurity of not being well received by francophones or just feeling like the "other.''
Despite this, having the opportunity to fully immerse myself in the French language, interacting and developing friendships with francophones and experiencing another culture that I was so distant from even though I lived so closely to it my entire life, allowed me to be a well-rounded person who could appreciate the value of bilingualism in Canada. This sentiment is certainly echoed from the English-speaking youth in the "Youth for Youth'' project that I coordinate and certainly our clients.
Although our parents and the generations before us could live full, successful lives in the province without learning fluent French, clearly our reality is not the same. With English institutions closing, dwindling communities and unemployment being the highest among anglophone youth, there is a clear understanding that while we need to protect our English-speaking roots and identity, we likewise need to embrace bilingualism and see the linguistic duality as an asset, one that can help us realize our ambitions particularly in the job market.
Views were repeatedly heard from our English-speaking youth that Canada's identity of bilingualism should ensure the availability and protect the rights of services and resources such as the health care system. It should be available to all Canadians in French and English. No matter the language you speak, you should be able to walk into an institution feeling comfortable.
We hear about creating accessible and affordable essential learning and socializing programs such as language classes, summer jobs, internship programs, and immersion that encourages all Canadians, not only Quebecers, to learn a second official language as a means to cultivate a tolerant and open attitude toward current culture and language. Ultimately investing in and promoting bilingualism through these programs will reduce the linguistic insecurity and foster a more integrated community and enriched country, in my opinion.
We will now open it for questions.
[Translation]
The Chair: Thank you for sharing your experiences and your observations with us. The first question will come from Senator Fraser.
[English]
Senator Fraser: I will be crass and talk about money. Do you get federal funding now for YES?
Mr. Clarke: We do.
Senator Fraser: How much?
Mr. Clarke: Off the top of my head I have no idea, but I would say probably 85 per cent of our funding, if I just had to pick, comes from the federal. The provincial is a different story.
Senator Fraser: Yes. What is it?
Mr. Clarke: We end up getting about only 10 per cent. We only have one program through Emploi Québec at the moment. It funds about 380 people, but we see 2,000 people who could actually use the service.
Senator Fraser: Right. What can we do? I see a nice long list of recommendations here. It's very helpful to have recommendations. The difficulty is that we are federal. As you just pointed out, the provincial government may or may not see things the same way.
Bearing in mind the permanent constraint of the Canadian nature, what would be your priority to ask for from the federal government?
Mr. Clarke: In the area of employment, in particular, it would be greatly appreciated if departments were being a bit creative and innovative when looking at retention, PCH, Canadian Heritage funding, and stuff like that. They could look at how to fund retention, build vitality through employment, and actually allow more programs and more funds.
When it comes to identity we have to understand that the ability to truly participate means having an income that allows us to feel secure and builds confidence to partake in a greater community. That is really the essence of why we are doing what we are doing. It's not that we believe we are in the game of making money. We are not saying we are in employment so someone can make some money. That's not why we are there. We are there for young people and we need more support. That is what we really need.
Senator Fraser: I haven't looked at this for a long time now, but it certainly used to be the case that in order to be accredited to practise any one of a whole raft of occupations, not just doctors, lawyers and engineers but manicurists, podiatrists and who have you, one had to pass French language tests.
Is that a problem for English-speaking youth? Are they capable? Do they still have to do it and, if so, are they capable of doing that or do they need help to prepare for those tests?
Mr. Clarke: It depends very much on the individual. I believe there are some orders or certain things that you have to do a test. I can speak on behalf of my girlfriend. She is a nurse and, of course, being raised in Quebec she didn't have to write the French. However, a lot of our friends from different provinces who wanted to stay and be nurses in our province had to write the exam in French, didn't have the proficiency level and had to leave.
It would have been nice if there would have been some kind of language training course to get them up to the standard, but that is the challenge. It really comes down to the different industries or sectors and very much their proficiency level.
We want to understand that bilingualism brings a great value to our province, but it should be a stepped process to ensure that no one feels ostracized because of their proficiency level.
Senator Moncion: My question is about the YES employment program because it exists elsewhere in Canada. I think the challenges are not quite the same because in Quebec you have the language — I won't say barrier — component to work with.
How successful are you with YES employment where you are looking at integrating English youth indifferent communities into the different job opportunities?
Mr. Clarke: We look right across the province, so we have to start with where English people reside in Quebec. That will give a hugely different range of the indication of success on how we find people employment.
When we look at Montreal, if we are fortunate enough to have the right networks our internship program runs almost at a 95 per cent success rate. This means that we place people into a company, the company really likes them and they are hired. Of course there are certain language laws that ensure that certain companies within Quebec with more than 50 employees have to speak in French. We know if their proficiency is not at that level that may not be a good environment for them.
With that being said, the other regular program we do through Emploi Québec we end up having a 75 per cent to 80 per cent success rate. It is a challenge. We have to realize that our success rate is something that we pride ourselves in and work hard on, but it is always changing.
The economy goes down, and we end up seeing more people at our door. I believe right now we are at a 6.8 per cent rate of unemployment, which is an historical low for the province. Right now it seems like we are getting some nice wins, but next month it could be something else. Our programs are successful in the sense of giving them the skill sets but mostly the resiliency. I think that is really it.
Senator Moncion: What is the level of bilingualism of the clientele you are serving?
Mr. Clarke: About 50 per cent of our clients can speak both languages. The level of proficiency is always the hard part. Commonly we hear that people can communicate verbally and read but cannot write it. Even when it comes to job descriptions in Quebec, we will always see "maîtrise de la langue française et connaissance de l'anglais'' so that people automatically shy away from it. It might be a question that they could probably get by, but they automatically put that as their first barrier.
Ms. Lukassen: For a lot of English speakers who feel they can get by bilingually it's actually more the insecurity of going into the interview and feeling that they're not up to par in terms of their French language skills. They might have enough skills to get by, but they don't even walk through the door or apply for the job. It is more the insecurity of not knowing the expressions or not being able to professionally speak or write.
Most anglophones in Quebec have conversational French. I think it's the level of professionalism, that type of French that even in schools we don't get because we're not learning professional French. I think that's where the problem lies. There is that discrepancy.
Senator Moncion: That problem is elsewhere because not a lot of French people write French really well without any mistakes and with all the right phrases and expressions.
Ms. Lukassen: Funnily enough, we often get French speakers coming to our centre to translate their CVs into proper French because their writing is not up to par. I think that problem exists across the board. It's about our education and our curriculum upping its game to ensure that we become employable after school.
Senator Mockler: Congratulations. You were not nervous.
[Translation]
Ms. Lukassen: Thank you; that's very kind.
Senator Mockler: You were very good.
[English]
I want to follow up on the previous senator's questioning. If you look at Mr. Fraser, our Commissioner of Official Languages, who is looking at studies of the benefits of being bilingual in Canada in order to penetrate foreign markets, you see it all the time.
I'd like to have your comments. Should the powers of the official languages commissioner being strengthened, in your experience, in order to benefit and move official languages across Canada so people understand more that there are a lot of benefits to being bilingual?
I'm asking about the official languages commissioner, and then I could further link into that. What would you like to see governments and/or the federal government do more? What would you recommend governments do?
Mr. Clarke: I guess it's a bit of a loaded question when I think about how to give someone more strength than anything. For me, do I look at them having a stronger platform to highlight the value of bilingualism? Of course. I think we should be shouting that from the rooftops.
When I look at the English-speaking community within Quebec, we have some great accomplishments. We have some really great artists, such as Nikki Yanofsky, a very young jazz singer, and Oliver Jones. When it comes to people celebrating the economic value of our businesses that are bilingual, we don't see it every day. They actually can penetrate those markets. I studied in Sweden where everyone speaks Swedish, but also everyone speaks English. No one there feels a threat of language. It is about a tool they use within their arsenal to make sure their country is very successful.
I see the Official Languages Act as a tool that we use. It is also a part of our identity. Both languages bring great richness and the opportunity to make us great. It's a question of when I see restrictions on how one partakes in the economy or partakes in civic life. It becomes a bit of a hard pill to swallow. For me, I look at it as let's promote it to see where it's most beneficial.
Sometimes I'm going to say if my trading partner is America, do I need it to be bilingual? Perhaps not, but if I end up wanting to capture the Quebec market and the France market, maybe it doesn't even have to be English. I think the question is about kind of tearing it back a little and just being logical and proud at the same time.
Senator Mockler: Maybe what we could do, if you permit me, Madam Chair, is say that with the questions we've asked that you want to follow up on you could add to them by sending your notes or your comments in writing.
I want to bring you to another subject matter. There are a lot of benefits.
[Translation]
There is one subject you did not talk about: the Organisation internationale de la francophonie. The organization brings together more than 60 countries with French as a common language. It's a major economic market right around the world. Canada plays a very important role in it, as do Quebec and New Brunswick.
You represent youth and you are the leaders of tomorrow. We went through it a long time ago. But we had eggs and tomatoes thrown at us for standing up for our francophone institutions.
[English]
Do you think sanctions should be imposed on institutions that do not meet their linguistic obligations from the Official Languages Act in Canada?
[Translation]
As young people, what do you think about that?
[English]
Mr. Clarke: I think that is an extremely complicated question. I mean I can't say yes or no to it.
The issue is that I believe sometimes sanctions or legislation are needed for a certain level of protection, but I also believe that we have to find a very fine balance to make sure no one feels it's restrictive or too much to hinder anything.
I know that's a bit of a cop-out, but when I hear what you're saying about these different francophone and international groups, that's great access, but how do I say what I want to say? I don't want to say completely open and non-legislative. I'm not criticizing the other. I just want it to make sense when it needs to make sense I think that's all I can say about that.
The modernization part of your study is to really make the analysis and say, "This makes sense for now,'' the keyword being now, "because we're trying to modernize.'' Modernization doesn't mean a lifetime. It doesn't mean five years. Sometimes it may just take a short period and we move on because we've accomplished something. I feel that is the essence of your study and I feel it is the process that I can only suggest.
The Chair: Sometimes we feel that modernization is almost a permanent thing in the sense that the last change to the act was, I believe, in 1988. It has been 30 years since the last changes were brought to the Official Languages Act. Getting something that can change with time sometimes ends up being fairly permanent because it's difficult to effectuate change.
In our consideration of the modernization of the Official Languages Act, do you feel that youth-related issues are addressed sufficiently in the act? Do you feel that you are consulted as a group when taking into consideration official languages considerations and issues?
Ms. Lukassen: I think we're being considered right now, so that's a great step. Let me see if I can respond.
The youth in our generation are always changing. What I understand from my youth group is that they don't necessarily feel completely represented. Again, it's always changing. I think they would like to be at the table. I think they would like to have a voice. I think they'd like to be here right now participating in this discussion instead of us on their behalf. We can always do better to include them in the conversation. They have unique perspectives. They're a completely different generation with unique needs, interests and goals. I think that it would be a wonderful opportunity to include them in the discussion.
Mr. Clarke: A lot of youth don't know how the Official Languages Act is actually servicing them. When I look at my small community of 500 anglophones on the Magdalen Islands, there is a local organization called CAMI that works there. It has all these great school programs and ends up having a tourism development plan. No one there under the age of 18 would tell me that was because of the Official Languages Act, that it protects official language minority communities or that it allows all these exchange programs that they can participate in and learn French.
The question is that youth has a lot of things on their plates. They're doing a lot of different things, but when there is a service or support missing they feel it. When it's there they partake if they choose to. The question about the act is in making sure that nothing is taken and removed but is there when the time is right for them.
The Chair: As you were speaking something flashed through my mind that maybe we should be putting up billboards saying it is because of Part VII of the Official Languages Act that you're receiving these benefits, much as we see these economic development billboards saying that a part of the road is constructed because of the economic development stimulus program.
Senator Fraser: It would be improper to expect young people to be familiar with every paragraph in the Official Languages Act. Our job is to try to find out what the needs are and then maybe consult experts on how to meet those needs and make recommendations. I certainly wouldn't expect a normal CEGEP student to have an answer.
I'm interested in the data that you provided. Maybe these are interrelated so I'll put two questions and then you can figure out how best to answer them.
You say that 49 per cent of your clients have university degrees, 49 per cent. I would have thought people with university degrees would be well equipped to go out and get themselves employment or start businesses or whatever.
As a subsidiary to that, are the 25 per cent with post grad degrees part of the 49? I see you indicating that they're in addition to the 49 per cent. Some 74 per cent of your clients have university degrees and they come to you for help.
What's their problem? I don't mean that in a nasty way. What is in fact the problem that drives them to you? I'm also struck by the findings from your survey that 79 per cent of youth have considered leaving Quebec for employment. Are these the same people we're talking about?
Mr. Clarke: It is a small sample.
Senator Fraser: What is the main driver that leads them to consider leaving Quebec? Is it language? Is it the lack of specific employment in their field? What is it?
Mr. Clarke: On the question of what's wrong with them —
Senator Fraser: I did not mean it that way. I mean: Why do they need your help?
Mr. Clarke: I'm going to speak a bit from my own personal experience and then move on to our clientele.
I ended up having two masters degrees and considered myself to be quite employable. However, if I wanted to work for the provincial government I would not necessarily be engaged so easily. My skill set is very particular. I have a masters in development, a masters in business and a BA in political science.
This is what we see a lot. We have clientele that come in with very specific degrees. Some of them need to learn the transferable skills. This is what we do a lot: We tell them how to market themselves. They may have a lot of the skills they're not even aware employers would want. Language comes up as one of the main challenges again. If you're in the tech industry as a coder in Montreal right now, you're doing pretty well. You are probably going to have a job quite fast. If you take a sociology degree, you might be struggling.
That's a bit of the issue we see in employment. Some people go in because it's part of enlightenment or it is what they have an interest or passion in. My parents told me that education was a golden ticket. It's not necessarily a golden ticket any more. That's the challenge.
Are they bright? Yes, they are. Do they want to contribute to Quebec society? Yes, they do. When we look at the statistics of how many positions will be vacant in the province of Quebec, it should mean there's an opportunity for all these people.
Once they start struggling and then are offered jobs for underemployment, they take these jobs for a short period of time. Then usually they think they might have a better shot somewhere else. It could be a hunch. Sometimes they think the grass is greener on the other side, but that's what happens.
We do see returns. Sometimes we see people coming back and that's really nice. I choose to be a part of Quebec and want to. I know that comes at a certain hindrance but I think that also comes with great opportunity and great adventures.
Senator Fraser: It is not necessarily the right skill set and possibly language problems on top of that, leading to underemployment or perceived underemployment.
Mr. Clarke: Yes.
Senator Fraser: Sometimes we overestimate ourselves.
Mr. Clarke: That's true.
Senator Fraser: And leading to the grass is greener, maybe. Is that roughly the sort of progression?
Mr. Clarke: Yes, those are the stories we hear.
Ms. Lukassen: I would like to add to that point. The unique culture in Montreal is that we really are a university town in so many ways. It attracts a lot of international students that end up falling in love with the city, and who wouldn't? They end up wanting to stay and they make relationships.
What ends up happening is they are confronted with the reality that in order to be successful in Montreal and Quebec on a larger scale they need to have the French to a certain degree. Once they're confronted with that they come to see us. They do our French courses or try to translate their CVs. We have a lot of international students specifically that are coming to our centre. I think that's why our numbers are so high in that sense. They really are here for the university, to better their education, and then they would like to stay.
Senator Moncion: I have a question about the SMEs. How successful are you in that program? What is the percentage of youth who come to you, start from there, and create their own businesses?
Mr. Clarke: We end up helping to create about 200 small or medium size businesses per year. That's of course getting them registered and getting their legal structure in place. After three years of operation there is definitely a decline because some people don't make it. That's the reality. I think for the province it's about 30 per cent.
We don't get to track all that data as much as we'd like, but it really does show that they want to be entrepreneurial. A lot more youth are thinking this way. Sometimes it's out of necessity because they can't find a job. Others are innovative and creative young people that really want to do something different.
Interestingly, Montreal has a great ecosystem for entrepreneurship. We actually have a lot of organizations. I think we were rated in the top 20 by the UN. When a study was done that rated Canadian cities that were successful in entrepreneurship, I think Montreal scored in the bottom 10 per cent. Many people have theories behind that. I can't speak to them, but there are some unique challenges between having the support and having the environment.
Senator Moncion: The funding that you get is good. You're not lacking any funding for the SMEs.
Mr. Clarke: We are. That's something we've worked very hard on to make sure we acquire. When we end up looking at the amount of support that small and medium size businesses need to have a strong foundation and to become profitable, our limitation will always be that we're giving them training rather than full-on guidance.
When it comes to especially the island of Montreal, we've seen 2,000 people come into our department for entrepreneurship. I can't actually service all of them to the level of capacity that I'm going to develop their business acumen. I can say how the structure works, that this is legal, that as an accountant you can do this, and that these are operational, but when it comes to helping them startups are doing it all by themselves. If we wanted to be increasing our odds, we would need more funding to be able to work with them a bit more intensely.
Senator Moncion: Mentorship?
Mr. Clarke: Both business coaching and mentorship. Business coaching is much more professional skill development and mentorship is a bit more of a sounding board. That's when they become a bit operational for us. There's a two-phase system.
[Translation]
Senator Mockler: You are a reflection of your times. You are present for all the debates on the so-called social media. With your experience and your great reputation, I'd like to know how, in your opinion, social media can be used to make the benefits of bilingualism known across the country.
[English]
Ms. Lukassen: In terms of social media, it can be an interactive platform. By highlighting success stories and celebrating bilingualism you capture youth.
This generation understands the importance and value of bilingualism. They see it all around them now. It's a very different time than when I was growing up. I was in that bubble where I didn't see too much bilingualism. The island of Montreal is such a melting pot for showcasing. Entrepreneurs are regular people who have become bilingual and are extremely successful in various domains and various careers. Videos and different tools are available to highlight that for youth.
As Rachel said so eloquently, we should promote and celebrate that right across Canada. It shouldn't just be a focus on Quebec but across Canada. There is no reason we shouldn't all be bilingual and have access to immersion programs or internships. Socialization and actually being out there and learning from anglophones or francophones, whatever the case may be, is the best way to learn. It is the best way to integrate and feel included in where you live and to build your identity. Social media is a great way.
Mr. Clarke: I'm probably going to elaborate a little because social media is about engagement. It is a kind of interaction. People think social media is about broadcasting. It's a completely different kind of realm. Young people like the fact that they get to like it, not to like it, partake, and comment on it from a place where they're secure.When it comes to official languages, it's a bit of having that frank discussion and allowing people to truly understand it and see the value.
That comes through with the good stories but also with some of the challenges. Young people are intuitive. That's something they became very savvy with. There is communication fatigue. We get bombarded with messages every day, so we know what is genuine and what is contrived. The issue is that you have to make sure it comes from a very honest and engaging space, and then in the time it will grow. It's like anything. You can put 20 messages out in the world and get no traction, but something will pick up and grow and it's a snowball effect. Social media is like that. It's very much having followers, and I look at it as followers of the official language.
[Translation]
The Chair: I am sorry, Senator Moncion; I thought you had finished.
[English]
Senator Moncion: With the YES program for the summer how successful are you?
Mr. Clarke: Meaning?
Senator Moncion: There is the program you get during the year, but during the summer, the Youth Employment Services usually has subsidies for employers to hire students where $3 or $4 an hour is paid by the program and the rest is paid for by the employer. How successful is that for your particular clientele?
Mr. Clarke: This is the internship program I was speaking about earlier that has a 95 per cent success rate. We actually don't do it in the summer; we do it all year-round.
We have a different kind of program. We place about 20 youths every year into different companies. It has been a great success. If there's an area that I believe should have more investment, it's the internship program. It's a good program for young people to get this first step into a company and really make it. We all know that everybody can make everything look pretty on their CVs, but it's a question of the on-the-ground experience that they need.
Senator Moncion: Is the degree of success more with English companies, or is it diversified with English and French?
Mr. Clarke: It's with both. We have to acknowledge that the English-speaking community is becoming more bilingual. We see proficient clientele that can switch like that.They have an advantage, which is a good thing, but we're always trying to make sure that the unilingual person doesn't get left behind. It is a degree of all of them.
Senator Moncion: My last question is about something you said earlier. There were three things: health care, accessibility and education. I found your comment very interesting.
You're in a French province where you can go into any hospital or any education facility and be served in French. There is a problem when you're trying to explain to French doctors that the problem is here or there and that they need to understand your need. It's the same when you go outside of Quebec. You see that in all hospitals.
How can official languages help you change this?
Ms. Lukassen: It's a great question. I'll do my best to respond to it. Taking the tension and the politics aside, it's about promoting English and French as equal, as they are. One is not better than the other. If everybody were comfortable in speaking both, we wouldn't have the issue of walking in and speaking English or French. That would never be the issue.
That's where it stems from. If everyone were equipped, we'd all be great. We'd all be fine. That's not the reality, so where do we go from there? I'm not quite sure.
Mr. Clarke: It is interesting that we didn't speak a lot about the French community speaking English, learning English and being proficient in both languages. The word is bilingual.
When it comes to school programs, a lot of francophones cannot attend English schools. There are certain regulations on that. That really hinders when it comes down to health care and that kind of stuff because they're only learning it later on in life.
That is one of the challenges. New arrivals go into French integration services as well as into French language programs but don't have the access to English language programs or English integration services.
We need to understand that it has to be both at the same time so that we can solve a lot of these issues. The majority of the people we talk to everyday want to be bilingual. I don't have anyone coming in and asking what I am talking about or why. The why is no longer there. It's a question of making sure we can do it.
Senator Moncion: Especially with the youth. Yes, I agree.
Mr. Clarke: Sometimes I feel like we're always talking about the why but it's not there.
The Chair: On behalf of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages, thank you for your thoughtful presentations. Your comments are very relevant and pertinent to our study. They will be very valuable as we proceed in completing our study.
I'm sorry if some senators had to leave. The Senate is sitting at the moment. There are certain issues being discussed that senators had to attend and be present for, but your presentations here were very useful.
We'll have a written record for them, and if you wish to add anything further, please do so via the clerk.
(The committee adjourned.)