Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue No. 13 - Evidence - Meeting of May 29, 2017
OTTAWA, Monday, May 29, 2017
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 5:02 p.m., in public and in camera, to examine and report on Canadians' views about modernizing the Official Languages Act, and to consider a draft agenda.
Senator Claudette Tardif (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Good evening. My name is Claudette Tardif, a senator from Alberta and I am pleased to chair the committee this evening. Before we go to the opening statement of our witness, I would like the members of the committee to introduce themselves, starting on my right.
Senator Maltais: Ghislain Maltais from Quebec. Good evening.
Senator Mégie: Marie-Françoise Mégie from Montreal, Quebec.
Senator McIntyre: Paul McIntyre from New Brunswick.
Senator Moncion: Lucie Moncion from Ontario.
Senator Gagné: Raymonde Gagné from Manitoba.
Senator Fraser: Joan Fraser from Montreal, Quebec.
The Chair: The committee is continuing its special study on Canadians' views about modernizing the Official Languages Act.
Our committee decided to start this study by gathering young people's views on the advancement of both official languages, how they identify with the languages and related cultures, the motivations for learning the other official language, the employment opportunities and future of bilingual youth, and what can be done to enhance federal support for linguistic duality.
Tonight, we are pleased to welcome Warren Thomson, Principal of Quebec High School.
[English]
The Quebec High School has been in existence for 75 years.
Warren Thomson, Principal, Quebec High School: In the building we are in, actually it's 75 years this year. But the history of our school goes back with commissioners and the high school of Quebec to probably the late 1800s.
The Chair: As well, you are the President of the Voice of English-speaking Québec
Mr. Thomson: Yes.
The Chair: Welcome on behalf of the members of the Senate committee, Mr. Thomson. Before we begin asking questions, we would like to you ask you to make a presentation.
Mr. Thomson: First of all, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity. I am here to talk on behalf of my personal experience. I welcome all your questions.
In my limited understanding of the Official Languages Act, I believe the purpose was threefold. One of the intentions was to promote or foster the use of both official languages within our Canadian society. Part of being a Canadian or part of the Canadian identity was to be bilingual. I humbly believe my personal experience is a testament to this intention.
I was born abroad, unilingual, anglophone parents, immigrated to Montreal. We quickly relocated to B.C., Lower Mainland, Vancouver area, where my father encouraged me to take French immersion. I was one of the first cohorts of French immersion in my small town of Port Coquitlam, and I started to learn French. French was okay, I was doing fine, until one year I met a very important person called Jacques-André Larrivée, my French teacher.
[Translation]
He was a dyed-in-the-wool Quebecer, as they say, proud of his roots, passionate about the language and the culture.
[English]
He made a large impact on the students in class.
[Translation]
In his class, we dreamed of taking a walk along St. Denis Street or along St. Catherine Street.
[English]
After I went on to high school, I continued in French, and finally ended up in Simon Fraser University having no intention whatsoever to pursue my studies in French. On campus, I heard about the language monitor program, went to the meeting, and ended up getting an opportunity to go to Quebec. They paid my flight and set me up. I went to university there and they got me a job at a local high school as an English language monitor. This was a great opportunity to jump on board.
I got to Quebec City and fell in love with the city. I integrated pretty quickly because I already had a strong basis in French through French immersion. But in the city I changed my field of studies. I got my French degree. I went on to get my teaching English degree. I went up North to work with the Cree, all this adding to my personal identity or my cultural identity. I ended up teaching in the French system as an ESL teacher and eventually as a vice principal in a large French high school. All the time I knew where I came from, what my roots were, and I always shared my passion for the language and my culture with my students.
After being in Quebec City for 15 years, I had the opportunity to become principal of Quebec High School. Up until then, two things influenced my path. One was opportunities, obviously. The opportunities that were granted to me through French immersion, through the SEVEC program through the English language monitor program. I had the opportunities and I also met a teacher, so two things influenced my path.
When I became principal of Quebec High School, that's when the second intention of the Official Languages Act really took on a sense for me, which is to ensure the growth and the vitality of language minority communities within our country. It took on quite a significance for me.
We all know that Quebec is unique in Canada. I can't speak for New Brunswick, never having worked or lived there.
[Translation]
In Quebec, francophone Quebecers are taught, from an early age, that they must protect their language and culture.
[English]
The anglophones were taught that we need to protect our rights.
[Translation]
So, from the outset, we are in a situation of conflict.
[English]
And I don't think this was the intention of the Official Languages Act to begin with.
In my small part of the world, my experience right now, I'm starting to see a shift. I honestly believe I see a shift. I did a focus group with a group of my students before I came here today. I asked them some questions, nothing scientific. I don't have all the stats. But when I sat down with a group of my students, 17 per cent of my students said they were anglophone. I'm in an English high school. Thirty-three per cent of my students said they were francophone. The other 50 per cent said they were bilingual.
Now, what does that really mean? Because they are all bilingual. They all speak French and English. Honestly, what I was asking them is how did they see themselves? What is their cultural identity given the traditional opposing cultural labels? Fifty per cent chose bilingual, but maybe a better word instead of "bilingual'' would be "bicultural.'' They believe they belonged to both, or more importantly they didn't see their cultural identity simply defined by language. They are Quebecers.
How does this happen? It starts with intense language learning at home, at school and in their community.
[Translation]
Young people first develop their own sense of identity and then build their vision of the world. However, it is very important that they feel that they belong to their community.
[English]
I asked why they chose to attend English school; what was the difference between English schools and French schools? All of them talked about a sense of community, their friends, family, their teachers, community projects, et cetera.
It is essential that we give the means to help our schools build relationships with community stakeholders. We need to build inclusive, supportive communities. This is important not only for our French- and English-language speakers but for our indigenous and immigrant populations as well. Youth who don't feel a part of their community become disenfranchised, and the world today has too many examples of what happens when youth is disenfranchised.
When I talked to my students about me coming here today, I asked what they would suggest; what for you would be important? Firstly, they talked about their teachers. The challenge is how we form teachers to not only be second language experts, but to share the cultural identities that go with the language. This gives it context, understanding and it bridges the gaps. We need to figure out a way that our provinces and our universities can work together to create mobility for our teachers so they can learn the second language in a context where that is the language of the majority, or they can go into a community where they are part of the minority but they are a language speaker; for example, English second language speakers in B.C. or French mother tongue speakers teaching in B.C., or English mother tongue speakers speaking in the regions in Quebec, et cetera. We need to figure out how we can get this to work or at least have them go to university: Laval, UBC, for example. When someone is completely bilingual, there is no perceived threat from another community.
Secondly, we need to build strong communities. There are many initiatives that exist that are funded by Canada- Québec Entente monies and Heritage Canada. One excellent example is the Community Learning Centres that exist across English schools across the province of Quebec. Quebec High School is one of those. This initiative helps schools contribute to the vitality of their communities. The whole idea is to create links. Another example is the core funding for language groups such as VEQ, which I'm a part of, or the Townshippers or the Coasters and things like that.
I truly believe that strong, vibrant language minority communities are a valuable asset to the majority language community. These people are language teachers, they're neighbours, they're colleagues, they're friends. It allows everyone the opportunity to use their language in a context. Furthermore, I believe they can help welcome newcomers by aiding in the transition into a new environment, a new town or a new city, helping them understand the Canadian identity.
As an example, I live in Quebec City and we run a newcomers program in English. But when we have newcomers come in and their first language isn't French, maybe their second language would be English. Well, the English community can help them to integrate into the city and then explain to them they need to learn French. It's the number one priority if you're to remain in Quebec City, which I believe is the most beautiful city in the country.
I truly believe we should encourage initiatives that encourage language duality, so we need to bring the two communities together.
To conclude, I would suggest, if you have not already done so, that you read a brief prepared last year by ABEE, which is the Advisory Board on English Education. This was presented to the Minister of Education last year. It presents a solid picture of language instruction in Quebec and makes some excellent recommendations.
To conclude, my three suggestions are, first, we need to invest in teacher training and mobility. Second, we need to continue to invest in initiatives such as SEVEC and Katimavik, in which I was a strong believer because it offered youth employment. There aren't a lot of initiatives that do that. There is more around education. Third, we need language minority groups or initiatives that help build strong communities.
Thank you very much.
The Chair: Thank you so much, Mr. Thomson, for a very interesting presentation. I also want to commend you on having taken the time to have a focus group with your students. I think that is very valuable information, and thank your students.
Mr. Thomson: Okay, no problem. Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Cormier: Welcome, and thank you for your presentation and for having that focus group with your students. You say that 17 per cent of students identified themselves as anglophones, 33 per cent as francophones and 55 per cent as bilingual. I would like to hear more about this notion of bilingual identity.
Being bilingual, for me, is a language skill. When young people identify themselves as bilingual in relation to their cultural identity, how do they live that bilingual identity on a daily basis? You were talking about a number of students who wanted to attend an English-language school because they wanted to have a sense of community. So they are not going to be in a bilingual school, but in an English-language school. Could you elaborate on this distinction with respect to bilingual identity?
Mr. Thomson: The students who identified themselves strictly as anglophones came from provinces other than Quebec. In the 50 per cent of young people who identified themselves as bilingual, they see their culture as neither francophone nor anglophone, but as that of Quebec, in terms of their values and the music they listen to, regardless of whether it is in French or English. That's what they're interested in. We are talking about 15- or 16-year-olds. What is important to them is their core values, the sense of sharing and of community, the job and volunteer opportunities, and things like that.
For them, if the context dictates that the French language must be used, they will speak in French. If English is required, they will use English. They do not make a distinction; they tell themselves that, in Quebec City, if an anglophone cultural activity takes place in a room with friends, they will have to alternate between the two languages. In the hallways of our school, you hear as much English as French in the same conversation between friends. It is really a matter of context.
I have two boys, and their mother is francophone and I am anglophone. They do not identify themselves as francophones or anglophones, but first as Quebecers and then as Canadians.
Senator Cormier: I am trying to explore this notion further in order to understand it better. When they say that their cultural identity is bilingual, it is because they have access to both francophone and anglophone cultures. Is it a question of accessibility?
Mr. Thomson: They have access to culture. Being bicultural means feeling comfortable in any context depending on the language that is spoken. For them, culture is not their language, but rather their culture as teenagers, their films and their media. It is not a linguistic culture. Being bicultural and bilingual means that they will go see the latest film in French and another film in English. Putting each culture in a box does not apply to them. They do not see two cultures. They only see their culture of friends. They have not thought about this whole issue. We are the ones giving them these boxes, to see whether they are from one culture or another. They are not the ones identifying themselves, at least, for the most part. They are bicultural in the sense that they are comfortable, regardless of the situation.
Senator Gagné: Your testimony was very interesting. Thank you for telling us about the reality of the young people you meet every day. I think that helps us to better understand where they stand in relation to their identity and the identity of their classmates and friends.
Going back to your discussion with the students and how they identified themselves, you mentioned that, had you had the same conversation a number of years ago, the answer would probably have been different. You say you feel there has been a change. In your opinion, what changed the perception of young people about their identity?
Mr. Thomson: It was not the young people who created the change, because they grew up in that context. I was the one who noticed this change.
Thirty years ago, I lived in Quebec City, and my perception of English in Quebec City has changed. Before, in Quebec City, there were not many anglophones in the streets. Regardless of the political situation or the economic situation, speaking English in Quebec City was not always valued. Now, there is a new economy in Quebec City. We see that there is a lot of tourism; francophones see that speaking English is essential, not necessarily to have access to the culture — even though it is important for young people, since access to the culture and music for them is in English — but for the opportunities that it can provide. In Quebec City, an English-speaking francophone has more job opportunities in the youth service industry. So we see a lot more young people learning English. I was an English as a second language teacher, and I see that there are many more immersion programs, not immersion programs in French, but in the advanced languages, for example.
On the English-speaking side, it is true that the anglophone population in Quebec City has become more bilingual; anglophones are learning French a lot more.
[English]
I can't wait until the information comes out. The population itself I believe is growing, but the number of anglophones who are bilingual is doubling, so the English schools are teaching French much better. We're doing a better job of it. It's important for us because we realize that if we don't want our youth, our kids and that human capital of bilingual people to leave the province, they need to learn French, because you need that in Quebec to attain certain jobs.
[Translation]
In the public service, it is not enough to be bilingual; you have to be perfectly bilingual to get a job. Even for other good jobs, your French has to be impeccable, but it is possible.
I think I was an example. There are not many anglophones who get a vice-principal position in a francophone environment, in a school with 1,800 students. There are opportunities for someone who is proficient in both languages to obtain good positions. I think there is some openness, at least in Quebec City; I cannot speak for the rest of the province, but I see that possibility.
Senator Maltais: Welcome, Mr. Thomson. You make me smile. I also come from Quebec City. Your students are perfectly right. As for culture, they have the Quebec City culture.
Mr. Thomson: That is what I think.
Senator Maltais: The Quebec City culture is not the same as Montreal's, not at all. I have anglophone friends, I even have an anglophone son-in-law, and they have the Quebec City culture.
You said something important about being bilingual, regardless of whether the mother tongue is English or French. I will give you an example from the insurance industry, which I know quite well. Quebec City is the capital of insurance head offices in Quebec, and almost all of Canada right now. Your young people, because they are perfectly bilingual, have far more opportunities than unilingual anglophone Montrealers or Torontonians, who speak English only. They can work at Desjardins, at Industrial Alliance, and so on. Many insurance call centres — and it was done quietly, it did not get into the papers — have been transferred to Quebec City from Toronto and Montreal. I see you smiling, so you are aware of the situation.
Mr. Thomson: I am very much aware of that.
Senator Maltais: Why? Because this is an opportunity they have and, when they live in Quebec City, they do not feel that they are English or French. They are Quebecers from Quebec City. Young people intermingle. My children went to Laval University. On Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day, there were anglophones in my yard who did not understand the event, just as they did not understand anything about July 1. One day, I had to educate them about national holidays. For them, a national holiday is a party opportunity, end of story. They do not care about history, they have not experienced it — neither have we, for that matter — they are not attached to it, but they are attached to the culture of Quebec.
My question is about Quebec City's anglophone demographics. I was sad a few years ago when the last small English-language newspaper, The Chronicle, disappeared. There have been fewer news stories about the anglophone community since that publication was sold. Do you have an anglophone population everywhere in your school?
Mr. Thomson: Let me make a small correction first. The Chronicle still exists, it is still published every week. It was sold, it stopped appearing for a little while, but it still exists. In addition, there is another publication in English, Life in Québec. The English-language media are quietly being revived.
[English]
The 2011 Census came out, and it was the first time since the 1970s that we saw an increase in the English-speaking population in Quebec City. I'm waiting for the 2016 Census information to come out, which I believe will be more interesting to see, and I believe on this census for the first time we could actually check off both official languages as "la langue maternal.''
But still, the English population represents approximately 1.4 per cent of the demographic of Quebec City.
[Translation]
That is not a lot.
[English]
However, those 15,000 people are a strong community that is well integrated into the Quebec City society.
[Translation]
The anglophone ghetto in Sillery no longer exists.
[English]
The English-speakers in Quebec are pretty integrated, and we're also trying to reach out. We have the newcomers program, like I was mentioning, with Quebec City.
[Translation]
They are funding an English-speaking environment to welcome immigrants or allophones from outside.
[English]
They see the English community can be a valuable asset within the city. So even though we're smaller, we still can contribute. Not only can we contribute, the more we grow, the better Quebec City will be for it. The demographics are starting to climb in Quebec City, but we're far from other regions in Quebec where there are anglophones.
Also the demographics in Quebec City, the anglophone population — I would have to pull up the study; I don't have it here in front of me — I think the number was that 20 or 25 per cent of the anglophone community renews itself every five years. Employability is the big one because we have a strong gaming industry in Quebec City. Ubisoft is there, and we have a lot of people from out of province.
We also have the insurance companies. The insurance companies know that Quebec City is a well-educated city. There are plenty of CEGEPs and the university. They know we have a well-educated population, and it's one the safest, if not the safest city, in the country. Quebec City has a lot to offer. Companies can take advantage of that.
The Chair: It also has a tourism aspect, from what I can see in the presentation.
Mr. Thomson: Absolutely.
Senator McIntyre: Thank you, Mr. Thomson, for your presentation, which I found rather interesting.
To date, the Senate committee has heard the views of anglophone and francophone youth living in minority communities and representing the community and economic sectors. Some excellent points emerged from these meetings.
One of the points was that youth living in minority communities are clearly interested in promoting the two official languages. In other words, in listening to them, there is a feeling of identification and a commitment to preserve that value. In your presentation, you have confirmed what we've heard so far at the committee level.
That said, we live in a multicultural society. Obviously there are challenges involved not only in learning but also in living in both official languages. In your view, is it getting harder to live and learn in both languages in a multicultural society with increasingly diverse demographic and social/linguistic factors?
Mr. Thomson: No, I don't think it's getting more difficult. I think we're actually becoming more open to the diverse culture, which means that we're more open to the other official language itself. We do not welcome as many newcomers as they do in the French system.
[Translation]
— because they have francization courses —
[English]
— that we don't necessarily have in the English sector. It is essential that the English school boards — now I'm doing my little promotion — also get funding. We want to be able to teach those newcomers or children from other provinces that have the right to go to English school, but it's essential that we can give them what they need to learn French like the French schools can. That budget absolutely needs to be maintained.
I have a story of two Muslim kids that came to our school in secondary 3. They didn't speak English or French. Three years later they're trilingual now. Exceptional stories of these two children and what they've been through in Quebec City.
I don't think it's getting more difficult. I think we're getting better at what we do when it comes to language instruction, to be quite honest, and I think we have more access to the culture. We're more aware of the culture.
In my school, I have teachers from B.C., Newfoundland, P.E.I., New Brunswick and Ontario. I no longer have a teacher from Alberta, Saskatchewan or Manitoba, but in the last few years I've had teachers from those provinces as well. It's very enriching for your students to have that.
It's getting easier because of more mobility and openness to the world.
Senator McIntyre: On this level and keeping in mind the role of the federal government, are there any specific recommendations that you have in mind?
Mr. Thomson: I'm from education, so every solution has to do with education. I think, yes, we need to do a better job of informing our teachers when it comes to second language and culture and language instruction.
With regard to recommendations, I think we need to look at youth employability as well. There are programs like YES out of Montreal and SEVEC. We have to give anglophone students opportunities to work in the French sector and support those types of initiatives, or the opposite with the French kids.
For example, it could be an anglophone student who is 15 or 16 and wants to work at a summer day camp for the city. His French may not be perfect, but if we don't give him the opportunity, then he won't develop French at that level.
I do think we need to support youth employability, to give them the confidence. Sometimes they just feel that they can't work, necessarily, but they do have the skills.
Senator Fraser: Welcome to the Senate, Mr. Thomson. It's fascinating listening to you. You are talking about a massive shift in Quebec City, which has been famously, for some time now, not anglo.
Mr. Thomson: Yes.
Senator Fraser: The stuff about how these kids identify themselves was absolutely fascinating. The 33 per cent who identified themselves as francophones, who are they? Why do they have the right to attend your school?
Mr. Thomson: French parents. Both of their parents are francophone, so they do speak French at home. Either they got in through the grandfather clause —
Senator Fraser: The grandfather clause in Bill 101.
Mr. Thomson: Either they got in through that or they are military. For us, we know that the military clientele is extremely mobile. A few of them are military students, so they feel that they're francophone. They maybe haven't had the opportunity to be posted in Alberta or New Brunswick yet and places like that.
The other 50 per cent that identify themselves as bilingual may have two French-speaking parents at home.
Senator Fraser: One of those parents, at least, would have had to attend an English school or the grandparents. Somebody in there had to attend an English school, so there would be some family connection to the duality, I suppose.
Mr. Thomson: Absolutely. I can give you another personal example.
My brother-in-law on my wife's side of the family, his mother went to my high school. She was an English Quebecer. When she had her kids, there were four brothers and three sisters and none speak a word of English. Their kids never went to English schools.
When I became principal of Quebec High School, I talked to my brother-in-law. He never went to English school, but he enrolled his child in my school and now she's bilingual.
Senator Fraser: How is this difficult to trace sense of identity over time? How would you say the mother tongue population has developed over time? You have been there for some time now.
Mr. Thomson: I've been there 25 to 30 years. How is the English population?
Senator Fraser: In your school.
Mr. Thomson: I've been there 10 years now.
Senator Fraser: Over that time has the actual anglophone population been stable, grown or diminished?
Mr. Thomson: The actual anglophone population I would say is pretty stable.
Senator Fraser: That's encouraging.
Mr. Thomson: We have newcomers come in. We have people from out of province come in that are very anglophone. So they always arrive. Hopefully some of them stay. The majority do, but some leave because they're in for contracts, the parents are professors at Laval or they're in for a contract with a gaming company or something like that.
The children appreciate the city. I've never had a student want to get out and leave, but sometimes families make choices to return to a different milieu. Integration is not always easy.
Senator Fraser: For the parents, in particular.
Mr. Thomson: Yes.
Maybe I didn't answer your question.
Senator Fraser: Are you aware of any indicators at all about this concept of self-identification as francophone bilingual or anglophone in French schools?
Mr. Thomson: No, but I do know that more English families are choosing to send their kids to French schools because they remember what the French was like when they went to school. They want their children to have access to excellent French education because they want their children to be bilingual and live. The French in the English school has changed. It's getting better.
It's difficult because you always want to respect individual choice, and you always want to respect the parent that chooses to send their child to the school they feel best fits their needs. They want to send them to French school so they become bilingual. It's great for the family. I'm glad they have the choice, but it's also problematic for the English community that doesn't necessarily have the kids that have access to the English schools coming to the English schools. It's a bit of a problem — not a problem. It's a situation that exists.
Senator Bovey: This is very interesting. I want to go back to the question of employment. You mentioned Katimavik. In response to Senator McIntyre's question, you mentioned steps around youth employability.
We had the Youth Employment Services before us a while ago, and they presented recommendations in favour of an inclusive approach to employment and entrepreneurship as a means of helping retain youth in communities. Can you talk about youth jobs and how that might retain anglophone youth in their community? You talked a lot about relationship to community.
Mr. Thomson: First of all, you need a community. You need to have a vibrant second language community within your area; hopefully that exists. That's where you have different organizations.
Yes, I've seen a bit and worked a bit with them. They've come to Quebec City and done coaching workshops for entrepreneurs on entrepreneurship with youth.
Employability isn't my sector, but when I talked to my students, they felt being bilingual was essential if they wanted to remain in Quebec City. But my students don't feel confined to Quebec City. Some say they want to go be an actor in New York. They're 15 and 16 years old. They want to travel and see things. That's a huge advantage for our youth.
I'll take one example of a young man who graduated from Quebec High School. He went to an English CEGEP, studied engineering at Laval, came out of there, got a job with an international engineering company, worked for two years, decided he wasn't going to do that, went to McGill, finished his law degree in April and now is doing his articling with a big firm in downtown New York City. If you were to talk to him, he has a fantastic idea of language duality and what it means — identity and stuff like that.
I talked to him two weeks ago, when he was back in town. I'm friends with him and very good friends with his family. He said, "I'm going to go there for sure, but I always want to come back to Quebec City. I'm from Quebec City and I want to be part of Quebec City, but as much as I can learn as I go along, the more I can contribute when I come back.''
So the opportunities for employability are there. He had the confidence to do it and to work in both languages. We need to create these initiatives.
I work with younger youth, so for me it is the summer initiatives. I believe strongly in Katimavik. I have seen the results of Katimavik. I have staff members who wouldn't have been in my school if it wasn't for Katimavik.
For me that was a fantastic program, but there are other ones, such as exchanges. You're not going to learn a language in two weeks in an exchange, but you will develop an openness to another community or another area with an exchange. I had students that went to Nunavut two weeks ago. They all want to work up North now. They are young and the more opportunities you give them, the more they dream about changing the world.
Senator Bovey: I like that shifting platform. It's very exciting and encouraging.
[Translation]
Senator Moncion: Thank you for the information that you shared with us. I am very interested in your comments about young anglophone Quebecers who learn a second language and who create an environment for themselves. The same can be seen in the other provinces, where young francophones from predominantly anglophone environments identify with a setting that means something to them. Bilingualism is also important to them. I was in school a number of years ago, and it was like that in Alberta: a good majority of young people — in your school you say it is 50 per cent — no longer identified themselves as simply anglophone or francophone, but rather bilingual. It's like that everywhere for young people.
Mr. Thomson: I hope so.
Senator Moncion: How can we promote success stories such as yours in order to make bilingualism more attractive everywhere and to invite communities facing resistance from governments to invest in the bilingualism of their schools?
Mr. Thomson: Investment by the school boards and the provinces is definitely a challenge. That's clear. I honestly think we have to work with universities, because if the environment makes it impossible to have access to the minority or majority language of the community. . .
[English]
If it doesn't work out there, you have to do it through your language teachers. Sometimes the home doesn't provide the bilingualism and the community, for whatever reason, doesn't provide that opportunity. The access is the teachers. They are the ones who will open the minds of their students.
If we talk about recruiting — was it Manitoba?
Senator Moncion: No, Ontario.
Mr. Thomson: Ontario is tough for us. In Quebec, we know that Ontario can recruit francophones to teach French in Ontario. It's harder for us to recruit anglophones to teach English in Quebec just because of the difference in salary scales and things like that. We have to create a system with our universities and our departments of education for mobility between provinces for language teachers. I strongly believe in that.
I also believe in our second language teachers. I'm a second language teacher. My first degree is in French at Laval. When I decided to stay in Quebec, obviously I couldn't teach French. I looked at doing English as a second language degree, so I got both my BACs, but I never once had a course on culture. We were taught how to teach the language, but how you get the student interested in becoming bilingual and travelling is all through the culture. That has to be a part of our training. There are some great programs. I know when Saskatchewan teachers earn their degree, they can come out and study a year at Laval and then go back.
We have to create that mobility of teachers to do that. We have to create incentives or look at initiatives where we can get native French language speakers to go into other provinces to teach there or vice versa.
I think at that level, it would be a great asset. That would be one of my first recommendations. My recommendations were about teacher mobility.
[Translation]
I think basic second-language training needs to be reviewed.
The Chair: There are already several senators who want to ask more questions, so I would ask you to keep your questions brief, as well as your answers, Mr. Thomson.
Senator Gagné: This is a question I asked the young people of Quebec who came to give a presentation: for an anglophone Quebecer, is the challenge having access to learning French, or is it rather the preservation of the mother tongue?
Mr. Thomson: Does it need to be one or the other? I do not think so. I think, in Quebec, at least in Quebec City, they have access to good teachers. We are in an exceptional cultural city.
[English]
They can get excellent second-language instruction. At the same time, when they're fully bilingual, I don't think you necessarily perceive the threat of another culture taking over. The more bilingual you are, the more at ease you are within both cultures. Therefore, you don't feel necessarily that "un n'empêche pas l'autre.''
[Translation]
Senator Gagné: I have a supplementary question. Do you think bilingualism can be an assimilating factor for the anglophone majority?
[English]
Mr. Thomson: Bilingualism is essential. It's the basis. When I asked how something like that happens, it happens with intense language instruction and language learning. I don't think it can be only the schools that provide it. I believe that families are an essential part of anyone becoming bilingual, but not the only thing. Schools play a huge role for those who don't have access within families. Finally, it's your community organizations that create links with the schools that provide the opportunities.
We have to get language instruction out of just the classroom. We have to provide opportunities for youth to apply what they're learning in a meaningful context. That takes investment at the federal and provincial levels. Those are arguments above my level, but on the ground level it's essential that we provide those opportunities.
I'll get back to the basics: It's essential, no matter where we are, that we create strong communities, because the youth have to do it.
My proudest moments are all the projects my students do with seniors. I'm proud that our school does exceptionally well on the ministry exams and that we're rated one of the top school boards in the province. Of course I think that's great. But when I see seniors come into my school and take IT courses given by my students, wow, that's magic.
When they interview seniors and then they write a story about Quebec, produce it and put it out, that's magic. It breaks down so many things. They create a sense of belonging to their community. Even if that kid was from francophone parents, let's say, he belongs to the English community now. He sat down with seniors from the community, heard their stories and wrote a book. He's part of that now. That's how you create all those things, so it's initiative.
But we don't have the budget in our school to do all these things. We do that by working with stakeholders. The Community Learning Centres is a network of schools across Quebec. I think we're up to 72 schools now. When I started 10 years ago, we were 15 schools. If you haven't already, you should talk to somebody from that network — it would be very interesting — either Paule Langevin or Debbie Horrocks or David McFall, who is just across the bridge at Pierre Elliott Trudeau.
Senator McIntyre: Mr. Thomson, I would like to have your thoughts on the future of the Official Languages Act, in other words, its enforcement. The reason I'm asking you this question is that this committee has often heard that some federal institutions do not meet their official languages obligations.
That said, what mechanisms do you have in mind that are needed to ensure that the act is fully enforced? For example, should the powers of the Official Languages Commissioner be strengthened, and should sanctions be imposed on federal institutions that do not respect their linguistic obligations?
Mr. Thomson: I can't respond to that question in the sense that when you talk about enforcing, I'm an educator; I don't enforce. I don't think enforcing things works. Enforcing can create more conflict. You've just got to present a better reason why they need to abide or how it is beneficial for those organizations to apply the law.
Senator McIntyre: My question is simple. If the act is not respected, what should be done about it? Should the Official Languages Act be modernized to better respond to a failure?
Mr. Thomson: If you're asking me if it should be enforced, yes. You have a piece of legislation that has proven to be effective for our country. I believe there have been great initiatives. If there are organizations that aren't respecting the act, I believe there are bodies in place that are given these powers.
But if you're asking me what should be done, I think that's a question for somebody else, because it's not something that I have had to navigate. I've bought in. Those who don't buy in, I guess there should be somebody who has a better — I've never thought about it, to be quite honest.
Senator McIntyre: You would be in favour of modernizing the Official Languages Act?
Mr. Thomson: I think we need to, if we foresee that there are problems out there and that it's not being respected. I understand "enforce.'' I would use the word "educate.'' We need to educate those parties on why it is essential that they respect the Official Languages Act.
Senator Fraser: In obedience to the chair, I'm going to put a whole bunch of questions which are designed to get a better picture of your student population and the community from which they come. How many students do you have? How many of them graduate and go on to CEGEP? How many go to university? Are their families, by and large, on the same financial footing as other people in Quebec City, or are their differences of which you're aware?
Mr. Thomson: Basically, you want a portrait of my clientele.
There are 378 students. We're not what we call a NAN school. We're not a financially favoured school. But I have students who come from 50 or 60 kilometres east, west, north, south — from farming communities and urban communities. I have kids who take a one-hour bus ride, if not more. I have poor families, an immigrant population and Native students — a mixed bag. The majority are from Quebec City, Québécois.
We have exceptional graduation rates at our school board. The top three public school boards in the province of Quebec are Lester B. Pearson, English Montreal, and Central Québec School Board, CQSB, which we are a part of, and we consistently have been doing that well. Yes, we have fantastic graduation rates. It would be even better if we were better able to track our students who leave the province, because they are considered dropouts. Even though they go on to graduate from other high schools, we don't track them. The Ministry of Education doesn't see the need to, and that's up to them, so our rates would even be better.
How do we do this? Commitment. As a team, we commit to the idea that every student can exceed at a high level of learning. Once we accept that as our premise, then we do very well in our schools. Now, is it a question of preservation? Maybe, but that's not what we talk about.
Senator Fraser: Do they go to CEGEP or to university?
Mr. Thomson: Yes. I would say the majority of our students go to CEGEP. What we're seeing, even during my 10 years, is that Champlain-St. Lawrence isn't the only option. We have more and more students who will go off to CEGEP Sainte-Foy, Garneau, et cetera. We have more students choosing voc-ed opportunities. If you choose vocational education in Quebec City, you're going to a French voc-ed. We have one English-language centre that does voc-ed, but it doesn't offer a lot of programs and it's more in tourism.
I have quite a large special needs population as well. I can talk about that for hours too, if you want me to.
When all our kids leave our school, they have a plan. We don't allow a kid who graduates — and they will be graduating in two weeks — to not have a plan for what they are doing next. That takes time and commitment.
We do our job well. But yes, short answer, most of our kids go to CEGEP, mostly in English, but some do go to French. More and more go to French.
Senator Fraser: University?
Mr. Thomson: University, yes, but after CEGEP, we lose track. That's the next level.
One thing Quebec does amazingly well is make post-secondary education affordable for our students. In Quebec, by far, a student who wants to go university can get into university.
[Translation]
Senator Maltais: Briefly, Mr. Thomson. You are relatively young. I feel that, starting in the 1960s, Quebec City has been undergoing a transformation in terms of the prominent anglophone families that once lived there.
Mr. Thomson: Yes.
Senator Maltais: The Polaks, for example, the Simons.
[English]
Mr. Thomson: The Simons are still around. The Polaks and the Websters have moved on.
[English]
Senator Maltais: Exactly. Couche-Tard and so on. They decided to establish ties with the francophones in Quebec City instead of leaving. That is what made all the difference. Instead of going to war, they came together and today, there is a small anglophone population, around 2 per cent, but they live in complete and total harmony.
Mr. Thomson: That's how I see it, yes.
Senator Maltais: I am convinced of it because I rub shoulders with them. I belong to two or three clubs in Quebec City, and the few anglophones left are members too. You have to ask from time to time to find out if they still speak English. But they are Quebec City anglophones. I am not talking about integration. The word "integrate'' makes me shudder, but the connection that has been established between the anglophones and francophones is an example for some other Canadian cities, I feel.
Mr. Thomson: If I may make a comment about that, there are very strong partners in the area, and very strong leaders around the table in Quebec City. Jeffery Hale Community Partners is a model in the field of social services and health care. The Jeffery Hale Hospital also. We know that they are going through major changes in Quebec City, so they may lose some of their autonomy.
[English]
For a school to have strong partners like that is essential, so we manage to serve our population. We don't ask what language they speak; we just serve our population. If you want to come, if you need a hand or anything like that, we're able to do it, which is fantastic.
[Translation]
Senator Maltais: I would say that more than 60 per cent of the clients of the anglophone college, St. Lawrence College, are francophones. The rest are anglophones and, primarily, immigrants. The francophones go there to become more bilingual.
[English]
Mr. Thomson: They have to refuse students every year because the demand to get into that CEGEP is so high.
[Translation]
Senator Cormier: You are a passionate educator, so I am going to ask you to take a leap into the future. The Official Languages Act talks about bilingualism, but it also talks a lot about language duality as well. There have been battles for generations, on one side and on the other, to have francophone and anglophone schools. The object, of course, is so that the cultures of those populations can be expressed through the school system and through cultural institutions. With this new notion of a bilingual identity, if you had to describe the schools two generations in the future or cultural institutions two generations in the future, how would that identity, those schools and those cultural institutions be transformed by that new bilingual identity?
[English]
Mr. Thomson: I might put myself out of a job if I talk about that one.
Obviously there are laws in place in Quebec that make sense for accessibility to schools. Even as an anglophone in an English school, I see the reasoning behind accessibility to English schools. I understand it. I didn't live through the 1970s and the 1980s and the exodus. I would love to accept as many different language speakers in my school as possible. If you told me that you simply choose the school that meets your needs, the parents can choose a school, whether it's English or French, I would love to see schools where there is no question or no limitation for accessibility, if you're leading that way with your question.
But at the time being, no, I believe we still need to have laws or acts in place that ensure those institutions continue to exist. The part in the language act that is essential, which guarantees the rights of language minorities to have education in their language across Canada, needs to be there.
If you were to ask me what I would love to see, I would love to see that all schools accept all students and that everybody is bilingual. I believe that could happen, but that's a dream for future generations.
Right now, there is still a need for the language act to ensure that those institutions continue to exist. I understand why in the province of Quebec we also have the provincial laws that recognize the need for our new arrivals to go to French schools, et cetera.
The Chair: As we consider our study on the modernization of the Official Languages Act, and as we consult Canadians — and now our focus is on youth — do you have any suggestions as to the type of questions or approaches we could take in order to get responses from youth? Often they are not familiar with the Official Languages Act, so it's hard to say, "Well, what would you like to change in the act?'' They don't really know it. As we move forward on that component, we want to make sure that if we are making recommendations for modernization, they will address youth issues.
So what, in your view, could official languages do more of to address the issues of concern of Canadian youth, and what type of questions could we go forward with in order to make sure that we get the appropriate answers?
Mr. Thomson: I think one of the aspects that I didn't touch on necessarily was the motivation for learning the two languages, and a lot of that is around employability and opportunities. I think the youth you need to talk to are probably those who are successful in a language community that's not their own, whether they're an anglophone in a French community or a francophone in an English community. Is it able to track them and see how they navigate everything? How did they attain these high-level employability jobs?
The Chair: Do you think the federal government is doing enough to promote both of Canada's official languages?
Mr. Thomson: I hope it continues to do enough. I think that the foundation is there. I would like to see more investment, obviously, in the opportunities and the programming . It has to be funding that every different region has accessibility to and can decide on the priorities for that region.
I do believe we need access in the education system, in the English education system, that respects our realities. One of them is to guarantee funding that we can teach French. We need that access to those extra budgets to develop bilingual programs, recruitment. We need to continue and bring, if not add, more opportunities for our youth to live the other community's culture, whether it's exchanges or youth employability. They could come back with Katimavik, but that's my reference point.
Could we do more? Yes. Do we need to do more? Yes. Have we been doing a good job? I believe there have been some excellent success stories on what we do.
[Translation]
The Chair: Thank you. We have no further questions. Mr. Thomson, I would like to thank you very sincerely on behalf of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. You have certainly demonstrated the qualities of an excellent educator. Your presentation was extremely interesting.
[English]
Thank you as well to your students. We will certainly take the information that you have given us very seriously, and if you have any further ideas or your students have any further ideas, please do not hesitate to contact our clerk on the matter.
[Translation]
We will continue the meeting in camera.
(The committee continued in camera.)