Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue No. 13 - Evidence - Meeting of June 12, 2017
OTTAWA, Monday, June 12, 2017
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 5 p.m. to continue its study on Canadians' views about modernizing the Official Languages Act.
Senator Claudette Tardif (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Good evening. My name is Claudette Tardif, chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. On behalf of the committee it is with great pleasure that I welcome you here.
This evening, we are continuing our study of Canadians' views about modernizing the Official Languages Act. Our committee decided to start the study by gathering young people's views, and tonight we have with us three young students who were recommended to us by Canadian Parents for French. With us is the Executive Director of Canadian Parents for French, Ms. Nicole Thibault. You certainly know that Canadian Parents for French is an organization that promotes French as a second language to Canadians and encourages them to learn French.
Before I give the floor to the witnesses, I would like to invite the senators to introduce themselves, starting to my left.
Senator Maltais: Senator Ghislain Maltais from Quebec. Welcome.
Senator Cormier: Hello, my name is René Cormier, from New Brunswick.
[English]
Senator Fraser: Joan Fraser from Quebec.
Senator Beyak: Lynn Beyak from Ontario. Welcome.
[Translation]
Senator Gagné: Raymonde Gagné, from Manitoba.
Senator Bovey: My name is Patricia Bovey, from Manitoba.
The Chair: Ms. Thibault you may begin; then we will hear from the students, and then the senators will ask their questions.
[English]
Nicole Thibault, Executive Director - National, Canadian Parents for French: Thank you very much for receiving us. No, I'm not one of the youth, so I get to speak first, but only quickly to introduce them.
As Senator Tardif mentioned, Canadian Parents for French represents 26,000 members across Canada. They're mostly parents — not all parents, but mostly parents. Our focus is about looking for research-informed, volunteer organization — how do we promote and create opportunities to learn French but also use French?
Traditionally, we may have done work within the schools. We continue to do that. But more and more, we try to make sure there are opportunities outside of school.
[Translation]
Interactions with francophones are very important for us.
[English]
That opportunity for a francophile to actually use their language and to speak with a native speaker and to feel that confidence build makes a big difference.
We've been around since 1977; we're celebrating our fortieth anniversary. We were started by Keith Spicer, the first Commissioner of Official Languages in Canada, who brought together 30 parents. Now, 40 years later, we're 26,000 parents. It says how the demand and popularity of programs like French immersion has changed the landscape of education for anglophones in Canada and having these opportunities.
We were the recipient of the commissioner's award of excellence for promotion of linguistic duality in 2016. They just released the report. I'm pleased that there are no new recipients, so we're going to continue saying we're the last recipient.
Our vision is really seeing linguistic and cultural duality as an integral part of daily life in Canada, and we want to talk about our strategic priorities. Our number one priority is youth. That's our number one pillar. For us, when you invited and asked us if our youth could speak, that was a wonderful opportunity, because we really think that's where we make the biggest difference.
Our principal youth event is the Concours d'art oratoire, which is a French public-speaking contest. It is the largest in French, and that's because we've estimated that we hit 63,000 students each year. That means that a student is participating in their class or their school, then they may go to the school district competition. Those who move forward, go to the provincial or territorial branch events, and then they may end up and find themselves at the finals at the national capital every year. We've been doing that for 15 years.
With me today are three students who have participated in the Canadian Parents for French Concours d'art oratoire as one of those out-of-school experiences where they've been able to use their French second language.
I want to say that our goal is also to support parents. As you can imagine, there are a lot of hurdles to get across when you're an anglophone who doesn't speak French in Canada. "How do I make sure my child has access to French programs?'' As a parent, I also want to make sure they're effective programs. "How do I will know the level of French they will graduate with? How do I know where they can go and pursue post-secondary education in French?'' For a lot of English parents, those are the hurdles that we try to work with them on to make sure the best opportunities are available for their kids.
We follow the work that you do very closely. We are probably the biggest fan of the report called Aiming Higher. We have it flagged and tagged. We show it, quote it and we bring it everywhere, because tools like this that you create really do help us with the stakeholders we work with.
We highlight some of those recommendations. Probably the biggest thing for us with our youth is the part around how we increase interaction opportunities to enhance and sustain bilingualism in Canadian society. That's one of our biggest challenges. The students will tell you a little bit about their successes and challenges.
Finally, we are very supportive of and value strategy partnerships. We are a founding organization of the French- Second-Language Partner Network. We work with the immersion teachers and with the second-language teachers. We work with the two groups that I think you met last week, French for the Future and Experience Canada. As a group, we're able to have a stronger voice for French as a second language.
We also signed a protocol of collaboration with —
[Translation]
— the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne, which is important to us, because francophiles who attend French-language postsecondary institutions. It is important to receive support, mentorship and to encourage success. We know that many groups think they will open their doors, but you need a support structure to encourage their success.
[English]
Finally, we continue with our work, and as you move forward, we're here to help. If there is any help on research or things like that — we've often talked to your staff — we do have services where we help the public with statistics; letting people know enrolment and how it's changing in different provinces. We would be more than happy to be helpful if we can be. Thank you.
[Translation]
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Thibault. The award you received from the Commissioner of Official Languages was highly deserved. Your organization does remarkable work and is very important to our society.
Before asking the students to take the floor, I would like to introduce two other senators.
Senator Mégie: Marie-Françoise Mégie, from Montreal, Quebec.
Senator Moncion: Lucie Moncion, from Ontario.
The Chair: Thank you. Who will begin? With us are Austin Henderson, Christina Andronic and Lucy Asante.
[English]
Austin Henderson, Representative, Canadian Parents for French: Good afternoon, Madam Chair, and the honourable senators of the committee.
[Translation]
I would like to thank you for inviting us to take part in this important conversation.
[English]
My name is Austin Henderson. I am a born-and-raised New Brunswicker. I graduated from New Brunswick's Early French Immersion program from a school in a rural village with approximately 2,000 people.
New Brunswick is Canada's only bilingual province. Nonetheless, we continue to face adversity when it comes to the integration of both official languages.
[Translation]
As a young person from New Brunswick, from a family and a region that is mostly unilingual, I am proud of my second language, but I realize that there is much work to be done.
[English]
I was extremely fortunate to develop a passion for bilingualism from a young age. This passion, however, was not possible without being enabled and triggered by organizations and teachers. This is why both of these stakeholders are instrumental in the enforcement of the Official Languages Act.
[Translation]
From the 6th to the 12th grade, I participated in a public speaking contest held by Canadian Parents for French regionally and provincially. Last year, I was able to participate in the national contest.
[English]
In 2014 I was able to travel to France for an immersive experience to enhance, embrace and improve my second language. Recently, I was named the vice-president for the Canadian Parents for French, New Brunswick Board of Directors.
[Translation]
My experiences with Canadian Parents for French and abroad have allowed me to improve my second-language skills outside of the classroom.
Even though I was enrolled in an immersion program, I only had five French classes during my last two years of school. Two of these classes I had to take online given the limited options offered at my rural school.
[English]
After completing my first year of university, I have yet to be able to take a class in my second language. My bilingual abilities, like many French immersion students across the country, are in jeopardy due to the fact that we are not provided with enough opportunities, especially after graduating, to enhance our French and English second-language skills. Even in the only bilingual province, we face adversity when getting access to the required tools.
This is why input from young Canadians is so important. In New Brunswick, I would be wrong to say there is not still some sort of divide between the anglophones and francophones, but I truly believe this is not necessarily the case amongst young Canadians. We want to learn French, we want the opportunities, and we want our country to become bilingual. We see the long-term benefits of bilingualism and are very quick to jump through the doors that bilingualism opens for us.
[Translation]
I would recommend that you make sure to include young people in this process, and that not only young bilingual people like us be given the opportunity to testify, but also those who have not had the privilege of learning a second language.
[English]
In terms of recommendations from my experiences in New Brunswick, it would be that the federal government work closer with provincial governments to ensure that Canada does in fact provide equal and efficient bilingual services. In doing so and in normalizing the provision of all services in both official languages, I believe that more young people will embrace our linguistic duality.
For instance, subsection (b) of the purpose of this act is to support the development of English and French linguistic minority communities. In my province, these communities are typically rural and do not necessarily embrace the presence of their linguistic counterparts.
In section 7, the advancement of the English and French, section 41(b) discusses fostering full recognition and use of both official languages in Canadian society. In order for this to be realistic, the federal government must recognize that the reality is that learning the second language is often a privilege.
These services must be offered to all Canadians, regardless of race, location, ethnicity, age and employment. This includes second-language job training, job opportunities, et cetera.
In fact, I share the position of Canadian Parents for French in advocating that learning French and English as a second language should be considered a right as Canadians in a country that is supposed to be bilingual.
[Translation]
To ensure the section is implemented properly, the federal government must recognize the importance of learning through experience in the process of learning a second language. The progress our country makes, and its bilingualism, hinges on today's generation. Therefore, it is important to give them the chance to have experiences outside of the classroom.
[English]
In section 18 of Part III, the Administration of Justice, the act states that judicial proceedings will only be executed in the official language of choice if the Crown is a party. Therefore, for instance, if a family in British Columbia were to request divorce proceedings in French, there is no obligation for the British Columbian government to provide these services, whereas because New Brunswick has its own Official Languages Act, this would be a right, and therefore proves that the services in our country are not uniform from province to province.
In modernizing this legislation in honour of our country's one hundred and fiftieth anniversary, we have an opportunity to improve our official languages and their services. Canadians cannot be passionate about both official languages if they do not have the opportunity to learn them. And they cannot have the opportunity to learn them without the support of the federal government and its partnership with each and every province.
[Translation]
We cannot consider Canada to be a bilingual country if every citizen does not have the same opportunity to learn both of our languages, and if our country and our provinces continue to have separate experiences based on our two languages.
[English]
The solution to this is to allow everyone to learn French and English as second languages and to in fact become what is actually a bilingual country.
[Translation]
Thank you again for inviting us, and I look forward to answering your questions.
The Chair: Thank you, Austin.
Cristina Andronic, Representative, Canadian Parents for French: Good afternoon, Madam Chair, members of the committee. I'd like to thank you for this opportunity to speak today about our official languages.
My name is Cristina Andronic and I'm from Ottawa. I am here to represent Canadian Parents for French, an organization with the mission of promoting French among young Canadians.
I was in a French immersion program from grade 4 to grade 12.
[English]
However, due to the lack of resources available in elementary schools and high schools, my high school did not have a well-developed French immersion program. By grade 12, I was only taking one course in French — French.
[Translation]
From grade 9 to grade 11, I participated in the public speaking competition organized by Canadian Parents for French. I qualified for the provincial competitions, where I took first place three years in a row. All the provincial winners in grades 11 and 12 will be allowed to participate at the national level.
[English]
The national level competition is an absolutely incredible and unforgettable experience. To see youth gathered from across Canada, passionate about French and bilingualism, is inspiring. We talked about facing adversity, learning the French language. We talked about extracurricular activities involving French. It was an amazing opportunity to bring everyone together and to see how far-reaching French is across Canada and how many people it affects.
[Translation]
I won the national public speaking contest and received the CPF scholarship, which inspired me to continue my adventure with this beautiful language and to pursue my studies at the University of Ottawa.
[English]
For the past three years, I have been at the University of Ottawa in the extended French stream, taking courses both in English and French. The opportunities at the University of Ottawa are incredible. I have not had any difficulty registering for courses in French. There are many clubs available to anglophones who want to practise their oral French, and I've been very surprised and happy with how available this is to students.
However, when I changed programs from biomedical science to a brand-new program called "Translational and Molecular Medicine,'' I noticed there were more problems. For example, the French program was not developed well, and yes, this is because the program is in its first year, but we faced challenges such as francophone professors telling French students not to study science in French because the language of science is English.
This was very difficult to hear, because you don't want to be told that the language you want to learn in isn't the right language. We're working with helping Translational and Molecular Medicine improve this. We've spoken to the board of directors for TMM, and they are working to put in place a stronger French program for incoming students.
This year I was offered admission at the Faculty of Medicine for the University of Ottawa for the MD program. It is incredible that the University of Ottawa is the only university in North America that offers the MD program in both official languages, and I'm very excited to start my medical training, to interact with patients in French and in English.
I believe that speaking to people in their language of choice leads to stronger relationships, more trust, and I'm looking forward to this.
I'm very happy that French has helped me with other languages that I'm trying to learn. It has helped me with my mother tongue, which is Romanian, and it has helped me learn my fourth language, Spanish.
Other than school, I've been volunteering with CPF, and one very memorable event was the Sir Wilfrid Laurier event where youth from across Canada gathered to celebrate Laurier and his efforts to make French equal with English in Canada. It was incredible learning about Canadian history.
We heard a talk by an MP named Peter Schiefke, and I found it incredible that all of the major milestones in his life were achievable because he was able to speak both of Canada's official languages. This inspired me to continue French throughout my life.
Finally, again completely outside of school, I've been very fortunate to be able to travel to Europe almost every year with my family, and I do notice that having learned French has helped me so much in my travels. I get to interact with the locals, and you appreciate the culture more. You appreciate the customs, and it's an incredible experience, for example, in countries such as France, Switzerland and Belgium.
[Translation]
In 2011, I traveled with my gymnastics team to participate in the World Gymnaestrada.
[English]
This is an event where gymnasts from around the world gather in a city to showcase their love and talent in gymnastics and everyone there spoke —
[Translation]
— either English or French.
[English]
Knowing both languages, I was able to talk to everyone and it made the experience that much better.
[Translation]
Thank you, and I look forward to answering your questions.
The Chair: Thank you, Cristina.
Lucy Asante, Representative, Canadian Parents for French: Hello, my name is Lucy Asante. I am a 4th-year student at the University of Ottawa, and I consider myself an anglophone with limited professional proficiency in French.
Although I was born in Canada, I am from an African background and I strongly identify with my African roots. My family settled in Winnipeg, and my mother, a Congolese refugee, told me about the challenges of integrating into Canadian society. For her, the difficulties of belonging to a minority community were represented in great part by the linguistic limitations she experienced with regard to education, employment, and quality of life in general. She wanted her children to be multilingual, and that's why she decided to place me in immersion courses in secondary school. Shortly before this decision, I took Manitoba's basic French curriculum. This curriculum is mainly about the structure of the language. So my written French was quite good, but I still had trouble expressing myself orally.
[English]
It was in the ninth grade that I began participating in school-based and provincial oratory art competitions, and although nerve-wracking, it was the first time I had been given the opportunity to practise my French-speaking skills.
I found myself facing many of the same limitations as my secondary school colleagues. Although we had been given all of the tools to advance ourselves in our second or maybe third language, the frequency in which we were given the opportunity to actualize these skills were few and far between.
The basic French program in Manitoba today seems to adhere to an unbalanced literacy-based approach to French- language learning. Throughout my experience in the classroom, our studies focused primarily on the learning of complex sentence structures and obsolete verb tenses, so despite many of us becoming proficient in the written art, our ability to speak in a leisurely conversation with relative ease and fluidity suffered greatly.
[Translation]
With Canadian Parents for French, I was able to participate in the national contest, and today, I am in the national capital, where I study at the University of Ottawa. At higher levels, many students have trouble, but thanks to the Academic Writing Help Centre and certain academic rules, I have been able to access numerous resources which favour academic success.
Moreover, every student has the right to submit their work and to answer exam questions either in English or in French. This is very useful for those that have language difficulties.
[English]
The modernization of the Official Languages Act is an important update as it should reflect Canada's diverse populations across the nation. Today, we focus heavily on duality. However, we need not forget the many languages that are becoming of significant importance in this country.
I spoke earlier about the linguistic limitations faced by my mother. However, because the Democratic Republic of the Congo is widely French-speaking, she still had access to many services in French and was able to communicate using French despite Winnipeg's relatively small francophone community.
A trip to Toronto last summer gave me a new perspective of Canada's cultural and linguistic diversity and how it is changing. Standing in line at a bank in downtown Toronto, I noticed that services were offered in English and in Mandarin, concurrent with the specific needs of the growing Asian populations of the area.
[Translation]
In my opinion, we need to recognize our bilingual heritage, but we also need this modernization to represent our new Canadian identity. Immigrants make up a significant portion of our communities, and in places like Toronto, we need to accommodate the requirements of specific regions.
[English]
I hope to see not only a greater push in French-language instruction pertaining to oral communication, but as well a more inclusive approach to French languages used by minority groups across Canada to accommodate the changing linguistic identity of this country.
[Translation]
I am honoured to participate in this conversation today, and I'm looking forward to seeing all the projects that will be realized in the near future. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you again for your statements. You are remarkable young professionals. I said the same thing last week when we received a group of young students. Your parents and teachers are doubtless very proud of you.
[English]
Canadian Parents for French, you have done very well. These are remarkable young professionals and I want to commend each of you on the personal initiatives you have taken to move forward in making French more of a reality for many others in your group of peers. That's very important.
Austin, I must say I was very impressed by your knowledge of the Official Languages Act, citing subsection 41(b) and Part VII of the act. That was very impressive. Thank you for that.
[Translation]
For questions, we will start with Senator Cormier, followed by Senator Bovey.
Senator Cormier: Thank you very much for your extremely inspiring statements. I would even say that it is touching, for a francophone living in a minority situation, to hear three young anglophones speak to us this way about the French language. Your remarks, your experiences and your prizes constitute one of the most beautiful odes to the French language that I have heard for a long time. I'm impressed.
Mr. Henderson, you are from New Brunswick, a province I know well. You are from an anglophone rural region and you speak French beautifully. Never have I heard a New Brunswicker from an anglophone community speak French the way you do.
In 2013, Statistics Canada commissioned a study by Jean-François Lepage and Jean-Pierre Corbeil. The study found that only 8 per cent of Canada's anglophones, and 6 per cent of anglophones outside of Quebec, also speak French and are therefore bilingual. The study also noted that that percentage has been dropping since 2001.
Beyond the wonderful work done by Canadian Parents for French, what are you underlying motivations? What events or factors have determined why you speak French and continue to speak it, especially for those of you living in anglophone areas?
Mr. Henderson: I can begin answering that question. As a child living in a particularly anglophone area of rural New Brunswick, I started French in grade one. That was my parents' choice, not mine, but today, I am so grateful they made that decision for me.
I grew up in a town where few people spoke French. That motivated me to become bilingual and to become the person spreading the message about the importance of bilingualism. Today, many people understand that being bilingual opens doors.
There is also the fact that I grew up among people who said that New Brunswick was bilingual, that Canada was bilingual, even though I lived in an area in which very few people were. I wanted to contribute to honouring that reputation and encourage others to speak French, because if a province is reputed to be bilingual, it is important that it truly be so.
As young people, we have a voice that may be heard by people in positions of power. That provides us with an opportunity to express ourselves in both languages in order to explain how important bilingualism is. Eventually, if we pursue our efforts, I believe it will become quite normal to see bilingual people.
That's one motivation, but every new initiative I take helps to motivate me. In grade 6, I entered a public speaking competition, in which I continued to participate each year until grade 12. My efforts continue through various initiatives, but that was my first motivation.
[English]
Ms. Andronic: With respect to all languages, I love languages, so the more I learn, the more fun it gets. But with French specifically, if you learn about Canadian history, it is almost impossible to not want to or to not feel a sense of duty to learn the French language. Many people have sacrificed their lives to help French gain the same popularity as English. Learning Canadian history will really inspire you to learn the French language.
Also, being enrolled in early immersion helped me greatly. I notice in schools that students who are not enrolled in early immersion are less excited to learn French in high school. I feel that the earlier you start, the more it becomes part of your identity, and you are proud to be able to speak in French.
Also, as you get older, you can participate in things like Concours, where people are telling you, "You should speak in French, you can speak in French and we're going to help you.'' It's incredible and inspiring, and I think more organizations like this are really helpful to youth in Canada.
Ms. Asante: I agree with Cristina that learning French at an early age is extremely important. I didn't necessarily get the opportunity to start very young, but because of my Congolese identity, it's important for me to learn it and to be able to interact with my grandparents, my parents and extended family. So it was important that I started as soon as possible.
[Translation]
Senator Cormier: I have a follow-up question that could be addressed to all three of you, but may be more specifically addressed to Mr. Henderson.
In the course of your learning and motivation, what was your relationship with New Brunswick's Acadians and francophones? Were you in constant or occasional contact with them? Is that a source of motivation or not? What is the nature of your relationship with the francophone community?
Mr. Henderson: Do you mean the Acadian community in particular?
Senator Cormier: Yes.
Mr. Henderson: The area I come from is quite far from Acadian areas. I remember that in grade 5, the history and French curriculum included learning Acadian history. In New Brunswick, learning about that important part of our history encourages young people to speak French. At that age, I found it quite interesting. Acadians are an important of our province's history, and allow us to establish connections and motivate us to continue learning French. However, outside of those classes in school, there is no real relationship because francophone and anglophone communities, especially in New Brunswick's rural areas, are rather separated.
Senator Cormier: Thank you.
[English]
Senator Bovey: I'm truly inspired by your dedication and commitment. I admire what each of you have accomplished. I know it's not easy.
I have a couple of questions for all of you, but, Austin, you mentioned when you got through your schooling that the bilingual opportunities were not there. I would be interested in all your viewpoints on that. I come from a particular place on this, because many years ago, I had a daughter who graduated from French immersion and has lost it and had absolutely no opportunity to use it.
I'd like to know what you think you can do to change that dynamic of 20 years ago.
Mr. Henderson: I definitely think that's an issue, especially in New Brunswick, where we are considered a bilingual province. I went through French immersion, as did a lot of people I graduated with. Already, by this time, a lot have not had the opportunity to speak French at all and are already losing it.
The main thing I was nervous about in coming here was that it has been an extremely long time since I have spoken in French, because I'm surrounded by everything in English, even when I'm in New Brunswick. It's even getting rusty, I would say, and I'm someone who has been involved in bilingual initiatives.
In order to address this issue, we have to be able to normalize the integration of both French and English. Even in a province like New Brunswick where we are considered bilingual, the services aren't necessarily always in French and English, especially when you go into areas where I am. There is the notion that this is an English area, but we need to get away from that and normalize French immersion for the youth as well as normalize services and opportunities in French once they graduate. We have to continue to provide extra services for those who can speak both languages, because it is a motivation to do that.
You need to start young and normalize the French immersion program to start with the younger generation. Eventually, it will get better.
The daughter's scenario is common, unfortunately, and by having an across-the-board normalization of services in French and also getting away from the notion that "this is an English community'' or "this is a French community.'' Integrating them together can help address that.
Ms. Andronic: I agree that if French becomes part of your identity, you don't want to lose it. Like your daughter, I understand that when you don't get to speak French as much as you did in high school, you almost feel like you're losing part of your own identity. It is sad that you have to seek out opportunities to speak in French with others instead of being able to speak freely.
It's great that there are services for people to speak in French with others if they seek out those opportunities, but it would be better if people learn both languages from a young age, they will use both freely. That would encourage people to continue in both English and French in their adult lives. That's where the problem needs to be tackled, at a young age.
Ms. Asante: I agree with both of my colleagues in that starting young is important.
I also find that a lot of us are afraid to express ourselves in French, especially around francophones, because we find ourselves afraid that we are going to make a mistake or we are going to be outed that we are actually anglophone and don't speak French all the time. It is important to gain the confidence to speak French early on, because the younger you start, the easier it will be as you get older.
Senator Bovey: Thank you for that.
Austin, you said in our consultative process that you applauded the fact we are meeting with you, but you interestingly pointed out that perhaps we should be speaking to youth who have not been able to take up the opportunity to learn the other official language. Do you want to talk about a little bit? That's an interesting view, because not every student across the country has the opportunity to enrol in either English or French, which is not their home language.
Mr. Henderson: I would love to speak to that.I will go back to the New Brunswick example, if I may.
I graduated from the French immersion program. I'm in a school that's relatively rural. It's central enough that we did have a French immersion program, but there are schools in our province that don't.
In a bilingual province, we have schools that are farther out from cities that are not able to have the opportunity at all. In New Brunswick this fall, we will be starting French immersion as a grade 1 entry point. There are initiatives to give the rural schools the opportunity to have French immersion classes starting in grade 1 as well, which is incredibly important.
There is that gap, so there are children in school now who haven't had the opportunity to learn French. By the time they graduate, they say, "Oh, it's too late.'' That perpetuates the constant separation and divide between the French and English services, and the integration of both communities.
Outside and in the province of New Brunswick, there are individuals who are simply not provided opportunity at all, whether that be with difficulties they have already in their first language of English. Whatever the case may be, there are individuals who are not able to learn French.
It's important to consult them well, because we have the incredible opportunity to go through French programs and participate in initiatives with organizations such as CPF, but there are others who are not able to do that. There are students who are bilingual, participating in CPF Concours but don't make it to the national level; they don't make these connections and participate in CPF initiatives like the Laurier project. It is important to consult them and ask: Where was the divide? Where was the breakdown in the steps to having these opportunities? How can the Official Languages Act and the federal government help bridge that gap?
Ms. Asante: It has a lot to do with resources, too. I grew up in the St. James-Assiniboia School Division in Winnipeg. I went to Sturgeon Heights Collegiate, which was the only high school in the entire division that offered immersion courses. After my family moved to another area of the city, I had to commute to high school over 45 minutes on the bus every day just so that I could keep up with French courses.
I think it's important to increase the resources and make it flexible for students to be able to gain access to French- language learning across the board.
[Translation]
Senator Gagné: Congratulations! I think you underestimate your French language skills. Please know that you should not feel insecure when you are speaking French, because you speak it very well. Last week, I asked some young people who had appeared before the committee to thank their parents for having made the decision to register them in an immersion program. I would like you to say the same thing to your parents. I believe they made a good decision, despite the risk it entailed, in registering you in a school that teaches in a different language than their own mother tongue.
You have a certain wisdom that I find most inspiring. If you could give the Canadian government a message about promoting both official languages in Canadian society, what would it be?
Mr. Henderson: I would suggest to them that they begin to focus on youth by offering them services in both English and French. This has to start with young people, because those young people lose their ability to speak both languages once they become adults. There are several problems when we become adults. By focusing on youth, and by offering them as many services in English as in French, it will become normal for them to use both languages.
[English]
In New Brunswick, again going back to the hometown thing, focusing on young people sort of normalizes that conversation and will address more of the issues other than the fact that when we become adults we'll lose it, but will also address the linguistic cultural and social divides. That will improve the situation as whole. I'm a big advocate of focusing on young people and things will then have a positive domino effect.
[Translation]
Senator Gagné: Let's continue the discussion about normalizing life in French, which I can see is important to you. As youth, do you believe that when it comes to communications, there is enough emphasis on increased investments in francization, for example by using social media to reach people across Canada, and doing so in French?
Mr. Henderson: I think it is important to normalize not only French, but also English in order to normalize bilingualism, as some francophone areas in New Brunswick do not normalize English, while anglophone areas do not normalize French. The same is true across the whole country. In social media, it is almost habitual to avoid using French, even if our friends across the country are bilingual.
When I speak with any participant in the competition, even knowing that he is involved with CPF and is bilingual, we normally speak English. I don't know why, but that's normal. One thing that helped me a great deal when I was practising for the competition was listening to the radio and watching television in French. That is something that can help normalize French when it comes to conversation. By listening to the radio and television in French more often, we can also normalize conversations on social media that take place in French.
Senator Gagné: Do you have something to add?
[English]
Ms. Andronic: For me it takes it back to the identity thing. People want to learn French; they really do. If we start at a young age, it helps French become part of everyone's identity. If it is part of your identity and you are proud to speak in French, you will not think, "Nobody else is doing it, so I won't do it.'' It will be normal and equal between English and French.
It's so important to start learning both languages at a young age. It gives a sense of identity and patriotism, and normalizes it. If you are taught to speak both languages from an early age, it will be normalized that way.
[Translation]
Senator Gagné: Ms. Andronic, do you feel optimistic about the future of bilingualism in Canada?
Ms. Andronic: If we can help children begin to learn French as soon as they start grade 1, then yes, I would feel optimistic, especially if French programs are mandatory.
Senator Gagné: I see. What about you?
Ms. Asante: I agree.
Senator Gagné: I have more questions, but I will wait for the second round.
[English]
Senator Fraser: You are a very impressive trio. It's wonderful to hear young anglophones who speak French as well as you do and with the enthusiasm you have.
I would like to comment on the notion that after all this work, years of dedication, it is possible that one might lose one's second language capacity. Goodness knows, we all hope that doesn't happen to anybody, but you never lose everything. If life takes you somewhere, where Spanish ends up being the language that you are actually using most of the time, you might even lose some of your English, but you never lose the enrichment that came with the learning and the experience and the immersion in that second language and its culture.
When I was your age, I spoke pretty good Spanish and moderate German. The German is all gone. I can say guten Morgen — good morning — and that's about it. The Spanish only comes back if I go and spend some time in a Spanish-speaking country. What I never lost is the expansion of my understanding and the richness that studying the literature, history and culture that came with those languages.
So even if you feel the French starting to slip, don't despair. Work to keep it, but you will never lose everything. Sometimes that opening of the mind is more important than the ability to utter a sentence in whatever language. In Canada, the ones we care about are the two official languages.
You all have gone the route of becoming bilingual in Canada's two official languages, but not everybody does that. When I was closer to your age, among a fair proportion of the unilingual population there was resistance to the notion that there was anything to be gained from learning French. In fact, it was considered an awful imposition even to suggest that one might have to learn French; "ramming it down our throats,'' they used to say.
What is it like for young people now? What is the attitude now among the young people you meet who have not had your experience, who are unilingual anglophones who maybe stammered through a couple of elementary courses but have no intention at all of speaking French? Do they feel defensive, hostile, indifferent, or maybe a little jealous? That is what I would like to hear.
Ms. Asante: Like I said, I went to a bilingual high school, so there were many students who could only speak English. Everyone could speak English, but there were only a few of us that could speak both. For those who were unilingual, I would say they were not so much hostile, but I guess there was an aspect of jealousy because they knew that once we graduated, we wouldn't all have the same opportunities to go to the same schools.
Senator Fraser: They did know there was an element of opportunity?
Ms. Asante: Yes. It was not necessarily their fault, obviously. Not everyone started young. There was more an aspect of longing, I guess I could say.
Ms. Andronic: I'm very surprised by the perspectives people can take on this question. For example, some people would get defensive and they would wonder why they need to learn French, what opportunities there are. You speak with them more, and they recognize that many doors open when you know both languages. You can tell them about your experiences, and I agree with the aspect of longing. They're wishing they could have done that. There are actually opportunities that open up.
There are people on the other end who wish that their parents would have enrolled them in early French immersion. I met several people at the University of Ottawa who saw me in the extended French stream and asked how I learned French. I told them about my school's bilingual program, and they wished their schools had offered the same.
Senator Fraser: Are those arguments persuasive when you are talking to unilingual people, the notion of opportunity and enrichment, not just money, but intellectual? Does that help?
I didn't let you answer the first question, Mr. Henderson.
Mr. Henderson: I can touch on both.
Going back to what you were saying on the expansion of knowledge and learning both languages, how it can open the mind, I would agree there is sometimes that sense of jealousy. The reason why is because while it is opening your mind, being bilingual is also opening doors.
My parents chose to put me in French immersion. Although I'm appreciative now, I didn't realize how it important it would be when I was in grade 1 and I'm 6 years old and they're putting me in French immersion.
It's almost like the perpetuating culture of the parents deciding — if they decide not to put their children in French immersion, chances are it's because they grew up unilingual. They have the attitude that it doesn't matter. Where I come from, sometimes there is that notion that this is an English area and we don't need to learn French. It continues because it's the parents choosing to put the young people in.
I think that attitude is shifting toward young people, opening minds but also opening doors. That's the important thing that young people are seeing.
Ms. Asante: I would like to touch on Austin's point as well. I think that notion of not needing French increases as we get older. I found that in my later years of high school, even though a lot of us continued our French immersion programs, our teachers would speak to us in French but we would speak amongst ourselves in English. We would share notes in English and communicate in English. From that point on, a lot of us started to dwindle and not really practise French as much.
Ms. Andronic: With how language can open your mind, it's hard to convey that feeling, that notion to people who have not experienced it. Again, with age, the older you get, it's harder to understand. If it's integrated at a young age, you feel it for your whole life.
[Translation]
Senator Maltais: if you don't mind, I have a short question for each of our witnesses. I am gobsmacked, because Senator Fraser asked my question. That is one for the Senate record books.
You have impressed me a great deal this evening. People like you are nation builders. You have the whole future before you. It is in your hands. You are serious enough to become people who will govern, and certainly contribute to building up our country and making it prosper.
Mr. Henderson, you studied in Nice. I hope you learned how to enjoy a glass of pastis and eat niçoise salad there. You will have learned Provencal French rather than Parisian. What level of French did you speak when you first arrived in France? What kind of welcome did you receive?
Mr. Henderson: I studied in Nice during the summer of 2014. When I arrived in France, I had learned to write in French, but not necessarily how to speak it. I lived with a host family. When I arrived, I thought I was bilingual. I tried to speak to my host family in French, but they had no idea what I was saying. I spent five weeks there, and it is unbelievable how much my spoken French improved. That goes to show that all opportunities outside the classroom are useful and that experiential learning is extremely effective. I think it safe to say that my stay in Nice greatly improved my spoken French. I also traveled elsewhere in France in subsequent years, and those experiences helped me speak French and not only write it.
Senator Maltais: Thank you.
Ms. Andronic, you are of Romanian origin. That means French is not unknown to you, as Romania's second language is French. Not to say this means it comes easily, but you may have felt some passion that pulled or drew you towards this goal. I was struck by something you said earlier. The University of Ottawa's science program is offered in English. If it makes you feel better, the same is true in Quebec. Whether it's McGill University, Laval University or Sherbrooke University, when it comes to sciences, francophones have not yet found a way to transpose these words. Therein lies the problem for francophone European professionals who arrive in Canada and are unable to apply what they have learned, because they do not speak English. It is an adaptation problem for newcomers.
I would like to congratulate you, because you are an exceptional person. When do you have the opportunity to speak French in your workplace?
Ms. Andronic: From the very first year of university, I had opportunities to work in research laboratories. In each laboratory, at least one person speaks French. It is not the majority however.
[English]
I see the adversity that they have to overcome in their language, and they are forced to speak and write in English and read scientific articles in English; but within the scientific community, I would say people are trying to publish in French. I'd say the more years that go by, the more they are pushing for science to be in English, and it's harder to see because these people have to make an extra effort to be heard in the scientific community. I would say they are still speaking in French and trying, but I think that it is difficult to accept that that is the way things are going, that science is being spoken more in English.
[Translation]
Senator Maltais: thank you.
Ms. Asante, you are of francophone descent. You mentioned having ancestors in Congo, where Congolese and also French are spoken. I congratulate you, because people always say that immigrants do not want to move to francophone communities. You arrived in a completely anglophone environment, and decided to learn French. You went in the opposite direction. What motivated you?
Ms. Asante: My main motivation was my family, as French is part of my identity. If I did not speak French, my grandfather would not be pleased with me. It is as if by not speaking French I would bring shame upon us.
Senator Maltais: What is the situation where you live? Do you have the opportunity to speak French with your neighbours and with your friends?
Ms. Asante: Not very often, as I grew up in St. James, an English-speaking neighbourhood. And so the only opportunity for me to speak French was at secondary school.
Senator Maltais: You know, the true wealth of a language is that we can share it. You are sharing it with us beautifully this evening. I commend you and encourage you to continue.
Senator Moncion: I would like to congratulate you. Hearing you, you are impressive. We have met a number of young people with varied and enriching experiences.
You do impressive advocacy work with Canadian Parents for French. I was present for the luncheon you organized up on the Hill. There were many participants and a number of diverse programs were being promoted.
Last week, Senator Gagné, Senator Cormier, and I were invited as speakers for the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada. One of the questions had to do with the Official Languages Act. We were told that the Official Languages Act has no bite. Seeing as you seem to know the Official Languages Act, how can we give it more bite?
Mr. Henderson: When I asked you to speak, I had to research the Official Languages Act. To be honest, I was unaware of the scope of the Official Languages Act and the way it helped me to become bilingual. Some sections had an influence, albeit not necessarily a direct one. I would not go so far as to say that I'm bilingual thanks to the Official Languages Act, but I can't say it didn't help.
[English]
In terms of giving it more of an impact, it's doing essentially what this study is trying to do: modernization it, reach out to different demographics, see their perspectives, opinions and how it's affecting them. There are certain things, as you can tell from our testimonies, that we experience as young people: the need to normalize French and English; and the need to incorporate them in different initiatives and services across the board, make it equal all across the country, regardless of location, age and any demographic. To make it have that impact, this is a good way to do it.
Like I said, it's not something, to be completely honest, that I had previous knowledge of, nor do I think that's the reason I became bilingual. But there are ways to definitely give it more of a punch and have more of an effect.
Senator Moncion: Do you have any comments?
[Translation]
Ms. Thibault: May I answer the question?
We often work with the FCFA, and there is no doubt that we have to show respect towards the minority francophone community. This is delicate as we have to explain to them that they need allies, francophile anglophones. There is always the facet of rapprochement and appreciation. However, we do not simply want to participate as francophile anglophones and say that we are coming as a group, as there would be a feeling of assimilation.
On the other hand, if the doors are insufficiently open, and that's the case for certain regions with the FCFA, allies always feel rejected.
[English]
We get sent back. Yes, if you have a French movie festival, and as a teacher I want to bring my immersion students, or I want to go as a family to watch that French movie.
[Translation]
It's not always easy. The doors are not always open as they say that we would merely speak in English.
[English]
Yes, that might happen, but they still appreciate the French film. They're still supportive and open. It's not just communicating in French; it's being open to the French culture and language.
[Translation]
On our side, we have to sometimes tell them to open the doors to allow both parties to interact.
One of the problems raised by Canadian Parents for French is the interaction between these two parties. We cannot continue to convince them to learn if no one on the other side listens to them.
[English]
Our challenge is finding that. If the modernization of the act can add some teeth, it's around ways — francophiles need some rights too. They need rights to services —
[Translation]
— in French, but not to the detriment of francophones. The francophones come first.
[English]
I get that. But making sure that francophiles who want services in French can also demand them. It's not just, "We'll use them if they're there.'' By getting that large number of anglophone allies and using them, it's going to protect those francophone services. It's going to make them available in more rural anglophone areas, because those French immersion graduates will say, "I want to use those services.''
Right now, they have no recourse to demand those services or to have more places in a French immersion school. When you hear there is only one high school that has a French immersion program — we have is 390,000 students enrolled in French immersion. The popularity and demand from parents is such that we could have 500,000 tomorrow for you. If you had 500,000 kids learning French immersion, there'd be even more demand for those services.
It has been the cuts and caps on enrolment in French enrolment. It's not that the demand from kids and parents isn't there; it's the schools. They don't see French immersion as the norm. It's still an optional program.
Right now in a Vancouver school board, they're getting ready to cut some kindergarten spaces. They're cutting the immersion kindergarten spaces. Why? Because the immersion program is an option. They don't have a right to that program.
That's the biggest thing that comes back from CPF: It's about having a right as francophiles to your second official language. In Canada, if we're really a bilingual country, each of our communities should have a right to their second official language. That's not taking away from the importance of the right for minorities, but it's a complementary right. All of the services would get used more and the minority would feel themselves much more supported.
Mr. Henderson: I could add something that you made me think of. I'm not 100 per cent sure, so correct me if I am wrong.
Earlier we were discussing the divide between anglophone and francophone, and whether you consider yourself bilingual, an anglophone or a francophone. Are you actually bilingual? There is that divide as well, and that's also an issue when it comes to finding those allies.
As someone who would like to consider himself bilingual, I always wonder if I actually am; would I be welcomed at those French events? Someone who is in French immersion and is trying to learn French would consider themselves likely as anglophone trying to get to the stage of being bilingual but wouldn't feel welcome there. So there's that divide between what is an anglophone, francophone and what is actually considered bilingual.
That goes to what Cristina was saying about how it needs to be part of an identity. But if you're identifying with those things and don't really know what it means — for example, it means something different if you're bilingual in New Brunswick than if you are bilingual in B.C., where it is less common. There is that divide nationally as well regarding what is considered anglophone, francophone and bilingual.
The Chair: Ms. Thibault, I wanted to say there have been two reports, the Aiming Higher report as well as our latest report on access to French immersion programs in British Columbia, where we have stressed the importance of having access —
[Translation]
— everywhere and for everyone to French immersion programs. And so, the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages recognizes the importance of having such access everywhere and in every region for Canadians who want to learn French as a second language.
Senator Mégie: I would like to join the other senators in commending your enthusiasm and your determination with regard to the cause of bilingualism, and for being its proud standard-bearers.
However, some colleagues have shared information with me with regard to offering health care services in French in some regions. They have noticed that immigrants sometimes come to them, that they do not know French, and are therefore scared to speak. They speak in English and therefore do not receive the necessary information as they do not understand what they have been told.
Christina, you are studying medicine. How do you think that you could identify this? Everyone works, the hours go by, you see a patient, and then you leave them. Or, if you have an office, people come to ask you questions but are forced to speak in English. They do not speak English but are afraid because they tell themselves "here, only English is spoken, and I must therefore speak in English''.
Do you have a way of detecting this in your workplace? Perhaps you have developed a certain sensitivity in that regard. I do not know, I do not have the answer. Is there a way to detect this so that we may speak French to the patient when we believe that they have not understood us?
[English]
Ms. Andronic: The first thing is letting them know it is okay to talk to me in either French or English, and I will respond in the language you desire because as a future doctor, the most important thing is the comfort and trust of your patient.
I noticed this year in my program Translational and Molecular Medicine that there were some francophones, and I would speak to them in English and see them hesitate and try to speak in English with me. It's something you pick up on quickly, that they're not comfortable in that language, and you can switch. If you're able to switch easily, it really helps with the foundation of a relationship.
I think that the most important thing with this challenge in my future practice is letting people know I am going to be able to speak to them in both languages, and they should feel at ease communicating with me in any way they see fit.
[Translation]
Senator Mégie: Has this happened in a different setting other than that of medicine, where people wanted to speak to you and you felt that they were not. . .
[English]
Ms. Andronic: Sometimes that happens when people are asking for directions.
[Translation]
Senator Mégie: Lucy, has this happened in your workplace?
[English]
Ms. Asante: I think it's really important to get away from English as being the default. Many of us find that we have to use English first in many of our conversations. Even when you go to a place that is bilingual, they may start with English and then French as a second option. It's important to welcome the two in a way that's presented simultaneously so people have the opportunity to speak whichever language they desire.
Mr. Henderson: I would agree with them. It goes back to the point that as anglophones, we're learning French. We're also in that situation sometimes asking for directions. We'll try to say it in French, but we get a response in English because they can tell that that person is an anglophone and is not actually able to communicate in both. Maybe they will have to answer in English, just in case they won't understand. That goes back to the whole concept of normalizing both official languages.
As you mentioned, there's the aspect of immigration and welcoming people here. Well, which language do they learn first? Is it English or French, and why isn't it both?
If we're actually a bilingual country, and if New Brunswick is actually a bilingual province, it should be both. That way you get away from that breakdown in communication when it comes to asking for directions and getting medical services, and the list goes on.
[Translation]
Senator Mégie: Canada can count on you to influence other youth.
[English]
Senator Cormier: I want to speak with you about identity and insecurity. Since I understand the insecurity you talked about when you speak French, I will express myself in English, even though I come from a French community, the Acadian Peninsula in New Brunswick. Although I learned English in school, I didn't have the opportunity to speak English on the streets, even though I am from the only bilingual province in Canada.
My questions concern the four of you. In your vision, Canadian Parents for French, you're talking about a Canada where linguistic and cultural duality is an integral part of daily life. I want to better understand the difference you see between duality and bilingualism.
I'll give this explanation, and I want you to react to this. Of course when we're talking about duality, it means that we recognize that both official language communities need public spaces in their own language so that their culture and identity can flourish. At the same time, we're talking about bilingualism. We're talking about the fact that we need to have more interactions together.
Cristina, you said, "If French becomes part of your identity, you don't want to lose it.''
My question is this: What does your identity mean to you, as a francophone, as a French speaker? Being bilingual is a linguistic competence. We sometimes don't link that to culture. What does identity mean for you?
Second, how would you define the challenges that we face with bilingualism and duality? What does it mean? I hear both of those notions all the time, and I don't know if people distinguish one from the other.
[Translation]
Ms. Thibault: I will answer first. We're definitely speaking of linguistic duality, of bilingualism.
[English]
We say them a lot, but what does it really mean?
I have two daughters, and they are their age, a little younger. My daughters go to francophone school.
[Translation]
I was born in Ottawa.
[English]
My children go to a francophone school, but their father is an American anglophone. Of course, they see themselves as bilingual. When someone says to them, "Oh, you're English,'' they will say, "Oh, no, I'm bilingual.''
[Translation]
And if someone asks them "Oh! You're a francophone?'', they answer "No, I'm bilingual''.
[English]
For them it's the way they see themselves. When they meet their anglophone families, they say to them how different my children are from their other cousins because there has been a component that is part of their daily life, whether it's the food they eat, the TV shows they watch or the experiences they've had. They don't know any other way.
When they're with francophones, they will say the same thing to me.
[Translation]
"Ah! You are really an anglophone, you are such an anglophone''. I think that I have an acceptable accent in French, but they tell me that I am very much an anglophone.
[English]
It's because my mother being from Dublin and never speaking French can never come out of me. I have expressions that are Irish, and I have expressions that are so anglophone that I'm different.
[Translation]
It is to see that there's another dimension to our identity, supplementary attributes that cannot be removed. Even were I not to speak the language, you would not be able to take the French out of me. I have a slightly more liberal openness of mind than my anglophone friends, who are more conservative.
[English]
There are differences between "English'' and "anglophones.'' I grew up in Quebec so I have certain Québécois-isms.
[Translation]
My daughters learned French in Ontario. They therefore have a Franco-Ontarian accent.
[English]
People don't think I'm their mother when we speak French because I have an accent that is different than my children.
[Translation]
I would not like to respond by saying that it's linguistic duality, as it is far more: culture, life, all these experiences that go beyond simple language.
[English]
Bilingualism to me is more l'aspect linguistique. It's being able to express my ideas in both languages. What I have had a problem with is that people get upset because I code switch. And code switching is —
[Translation]
— I begin a sentence in French and I end it in English.
[English]
And I don't know I have changed languages, and so translators hate me. But it's because I grew up learning both languages, and so I take whatever word comes to my mind that fits best.
[Translation]
Are you familiar with the French word "débrouillardise''?
[English]
That word doesn't properly exist in English, so when you speak about that and I'm giving my children a hard time, I say: "Sors ta débrouillardise.'' Let's do that, even if I'm speaking to them in English.
[Translation]
I think that that is more or less what they would like to experience. It is this aspect —
[English]
— where both languages are an integral part of your daily life, and it's about the language but also about your living experiences.
I don't know if that helped start you off.
Mr. Henderson: I can touch on it a little bit. It's essentially what you said. I was writing notes as you were going along and basically writing exactly what you were saying.
In terms of duality, bilingualism and the separation, I also consider those. Duality is being able to work together but having those independent cultural and social practices. So for the New Brunswick example, there is the Acadian Peninsula with the francophone culture and the area that I come from, Salisbury, with the anglophone culture. That would be duality because they're both living in New Brunswick, but the bilingualism aspect is being able to converse and to integrate them while also having that social and cultural independence.
Regarding the whole aspect of New Brunswick being bilingual, I would say not necessarily because we don't all have that ability to communicate in both languages, but we do have the linguistic duality; there are both.
The actual step of becoming bilingual, we would be able to integrate them while keeping their independence but be able to converse in everyday life and be able to switch from French to English just like that, and have that normalization of the languages while keeping the distinct cultures and societies.
Ms. Andronic: I would say that's definitely the definition of duality, trying to integrate but also really maintaining separate cultures. We wouldn't want minorities to feel we are ensconcing on their territory, if you will. It's something they hold true to themselves, and we want to be part of it. Duality is respect and acceptance, but we understand where the limit is, whereas bilingualism is the ability to converse in both languages and the ability to feel comfortable speaking with people in English or French.
When I say French is part of my identity, I mean that without it I wouldn't be where I am and I wouldn't have had half the experiences I've had. That's what I personally mean when I say it's part of my identity.
[Translation]
Ms. Asante: I would like to add that I find francophones to be more flexible.
[English]
In a way, I think it's easier for them to converse with us in English. There are times when I go over to Gatineau, and whenever I need services in English, whoever is serving me more than likely will serve me in English because I find that being in a minority group, you have to push to express yourself in the other language. As anglophones, because we're not always so rounded by the other language, we find ourselves less likely to converse in French.
Senator Cormier: What do you think should be done to increase bilingualism and at the same time maintain that duality and those strong cultural communities in different languages? What would be the priorities for you?
[Translation]
Mr. Henderson: I think that this must begin with education. Despite this being under provincial jurisdiction, the federal government should work in partnership with the provinces.
Like Lucy said, I believe that francophones are more capable of speaking with Anglophones, and the same is true in New Brunswick. In the francophone education system, there are mandatory English lessons, whereas in the anglophone education system, French classes are not mandatory.
I think that more young people would speak both languages were we to integrate immersion programs in the provinces. Eventually, they would also be capable of communicating in their second language with francophones. As I mentioned, it comes back to the normalization of both languages, but must begin with education and with youth.
Senator Cormier: Thank you.
Ms. Asante: I would say that students love prizes. We must therefore offer bursaries or other ways of winning. For example, we participated in a competition where Canadian universities were offering scholarships. That is something —
[English]
— that you guys can think of as well.
[Translation]
Senator Gagné: I have before me the Official Languages Act. Austin, my question has to do with part VII, and is not a trick question. According to the act, the federal government commits itself to fostering the success of francophone and anglophone minority communities in Canada, supporting their development, and promoting the full recognition and use of French and English in Canadian society.
Slightly further down, where implementation is mentioned, it is said that the Minister of Canadian Heritage undertakes measures to promote the path towards equality in status between French and English in Canada. The minister also enacts measures to encourage and support the learning of French and English.
What other measures should we add? Could we give the act more teeth, as Senator Moncion suggested, to ensure that francophiles can access education in the official language of their choice?
Mr. Henderson: Once again I would say that there need to be more partnerships with the provinces, because certain provinces have an advantage as compared to others.
Here in Ontario we have the University of Ottawa which, with the exception of certain programs, offers programs in both languages, while in New Brunswick, there is not necessarily a bilingual university. There is an anglophone university, and the next-biggest university is francophone. As this relates to this part of the act, this means students have the opportunity to learn both languages, but not together. Accordingly, the federal government must work with the provinces to integrate both languages. It must offer opportunities to follow courses in both languages in these universities.
It always comes back to education. I think that it was Lucy who talked about scholarships. Those are important, but there must also be other opportunities outside of the classroom, for example through organizations like Canadian Parents for French, or as described by those who appeared last week, through Experiences Canada. All of this must be included in the Official Languages Act.
Senator Gagné: Ms. Thibault, you mentioned your collaboration with the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne. Do you think that the colleges and universities have successfully adapted to meet the needs of the francophile clientele or the needs of graduates from French immersion programs?
Ms. Thibault: They are adapting right now. They have said that they find it challenging. We are working with them to create support and mentorship programs. The answer to your question is that yes, certain institutions have made more progress than others. The University of Ottawa has a considerable structure in place, but Université Sainte-Anne is doing a lot to promote understanding and interaction between francophones and francophiles, and to offer classroom support. At Campus Saint-Jean, francophile students have long contributed to the institution's ability to offer certain classes.
Yes, we are there. Do we have all the answers? Not yet, but I think that it is interactions with francophones which are difficult. Even they will tell you that there are clubs and activities on campus. But does everyone participate? It depends. People are stressed out, they have a heavy course load. So, not everyone participates in the activities. We need to reach a point where these activities would not be seen as separate, but would be integrated into students' daily lives. If they were, people would naturally participate.
As Austin said, there are exchanges and cultural visits. As teachers, we see that when young people take courses they learn French up to a certain point. However, when they have experienced immersion, for example at a five-week summer camp, or through the courses offered by the CMEC, Explore, Destination Clic, et cetera, they are better able to push their own limits and, all of sudden, they can have conversations and be much more spontaneous.
[English]
It's getting past the threshold that all those programs really do help.
Senator Bovey: I have one quick question that really adds to what we've been talking about between the Canadian government and provincial relations.
Lucy, I want to go back to Winnipeg for a minute. Being from the only school that has French immersion in St. James — we know there are others in the Winnipeg School Division and others in Louis Riel — was there any interconnection between the three school divisions with you, as students? If there were cultural activities that could come in from other parts of the country, could those school divisions get together and do something, or are the school divisions so divided that it's like three different programs and others within one city?
Ms. Asante: I definitely found there was a huge divide between the French immersion schools and the actual francophone schools. In Louis Riel, there were many francophone schools, and they had their own cultural identity and ways of doing things. When you go west where I'm from, we were limited to learning French in the classroom. As soon as the bell rang, it was done.
Senator Bovey: So you didn't connect with Kelvin High School?
Ms. Asante: No.
Senator Bovey: That's a problem: You have mid-sized or larger cities that are divided in school divisions, and they're "divisions'' instead of connections.
[Translation]
The Chair: Before we finish, I would like to ask you a question. You spoke of the importance of standardizing French and French-language services. What kind of services would you like to have available in French, in your lives as young adults?
[English]
Ms. Asante: I would like to see a greater emphasis on oral communication, because like I said, I found that following the basic French —
The Chair: But in your young adult life now, what kind of services would you like in French now?
Ms. Asante: Any sorts of services. Bank services, anything like that. We could use more services in French.
The Chair: Anyone else?
[Translation]
Mr. Henderson: It is important to have all services offered in French and English, because then we have a choice. If you go to the post office to send a letter, you can speak in French or in English. In New Brunswick, we are very lucky, because most public services are offered in both languages; in banks and post offices, and in most stores, you can be served in French or in English. That is the aspect of New Brunswick bilingualism that works. That said, even outside of the province, I think that it is important to have all services available in French. This standardizes both languages, gives consumers a choice, and it also allows anglophones who are learning French and francophones who are learning English to have an opportunity to practice. I think that it is important to offer all services.
[English]
Ms. Andronic: This might seem silly, but at the end of the day, when you want to relax and kick back, something wonderful would be equal French and English on the television or radio. That way, it's not only normalized in a professional environment but when you're at home and relaxed. That would be amazing as well.
[Translation]
Senator Maltais: One final comment: this was Ms. Chaput's dream. I am still waiting for Senator Gagné to get back to us on Bill S-9, because it was Ms. Chaput's dream that we have access to bilingual services everywhere throughout Canada.
Senator Gagné: Especially in federal institutions.
Senator Maltais: You are absolutely right. When will we have that opportunity?
The Chair: I did not ask this question but, as it stands, certain criteria must currently be met in order to receive certain federal government services today. For example, 5 per cent of the population must speak French as a first language. This excludes immersion program graduates, the children of exogamous families and immigrants, for example, for whom French is their second or third language. You would argue that receiving these services in places where these criteria are not met would be important. I am being pedagogical here, you don't have to answer! But I think that is what you are telling me.
On behalf of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages, we would like to thank you. You will have seen from their comments that the senators have been inspired by your testimony. We appreciate your enthusiasm.
[English]
You are very articulate and wise. We appreciate the time you took to bring forward your very constructive comments and suggestions, which will be helpful as we move forward on our study. If you have any further thoughts, please do not hesitate to send them to our clerk. We will appreciate them.
[Translation]
Good luck! I can see that you are already well on your way in your careers and your studies. Please continue to seek out these connections and relationships to maintain your French. We can attest to the fact that you have already made a great effort. I recall the words of wisdom from Senator Fraser, who said that we never lose everything, as the appreciation of the other culture remains.
I would like to thank you, Ms. Thibault and Canadian Parents for French, for all of your efforts to promote linguistic duality in our country, which after all was founded on the covenant of Confederation. Thank you for promoting this important part of our Canadian identity. With that, this meeting is adjourned.
(The committee adjourned.)