Journals of the Senate
55 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2006, Canada
Journals of the Senate
(Unrevised)
1st Session, 39th Parliament
Issue 43
Tuesday, October 31, 2006
2:00 p.m.
The Honourable Noël A. Kinsella, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Bryden, Callbeck, Campbell, Carney, Carstairs, Champagne, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cowan, Dawson, Day, De Bané, Di Nino, Downe, Dyck, Eggleton, Eyton, Fairbairn, Fitzpatrick, Fortier, Fox, Fraser, Furey, Gill, Goldstein, Grafstein, Gustafson, Harb, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Lapointe, LeBreton, Losier-Cool, Lovelace Nicholas, Massicotte, Mercer, Milne, Mitchell, Moore, Munson, Murray, Nancy Ruth, Nolin, Pépin, Phalen, Pitfield, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Ringuette, Rivest, Robichaud, Rompkey, St. Germain, Segal, Sibbeston, Smith, Stratton, Tardif, Tkachuk, Watt, Zimmer
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Bryden, Callbeck, Campbell, Carney, Carstairs, Champagne, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, *Cordy, Cowan, Dawson, Day, De Bané, Di Nino, Downe, Dyck, Eggleton, Eyton, Fairbairn, Fitzpatrick, Fortier, Fox, Fraser, Furey, Gill, Goldstein, Grafstein, Gustafson, Harb, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Lapointe, LeBreton, Losier-Cool, Lovelace Nicholas, Massicotte, Mercer, Milne, Mitchell, Moore, Munson, Murray, Nancy Ruth, Nolin, *Oliver, Pépin, Phalen, Pitfield, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Ringuette, Rivest, Robichaud, Rompkey, St. Germain, Segal, Sibbeston, Smith, *Stollery, Stratton, Tardif, Tkachuk, Watt, Zimmer
PRAYERS
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some Honourable Senators made statements.
DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Tabling of Documents
The Honourable Senator Comeau tabled the following:
Annual Report to Parliament on Immigration for the year 2006, pursuant to the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, S.C. 2001, c. 27, sbs. 94(1).—Sessional Paper No. 1/39-544.
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., tabled the following:
Document entitled: Pages of Reflection: A Journal of Essays by Senate Pages, Volume 1, Fall 2006.—Sessional Paper No. 1/39-545S.
Tabling of Reports from Inter-Parliamentary Delegations
The Honourable Senator Grafstein tabled the following:
Report of the Canadian Delegation of the Canada-United States Inter-Parliamentary Group, respecting its participation at the Midwestern Legislative Conference of the Council of State Governments: 61st Annual Meeting, held in Chicago, Illinois, from August 20 to 23, 2006.—Sessional Paper No. 1/39-546.
Report of the Canadian Delegation of the Canada-United States Inter-Parliamentary Group, respecting its participation at the National Governors Association: Healthy America 2006 Annual Meeting, held in Charleston, South Carolina, from August 4 to 7, 2006.—Sessional Paper No. 1/39-547.
SPEAKER'S RULING
On October 19, 2006, Senator Murray rose on a point of order to challenge the propriety of a question put to Senator Fortier during Question Period. Senator Murray believed that the question should not have been permitted. In his opinion, it was a question relating to Senator Fortier's political responsibility for Montreal and was outside his ministerial functions.
Let me begin by reviewing the event that prompted this point of order. During Question Period, Senator Fraser began her question by addressing it to the "minister for Montreal.'' The question dealt with a "new targeted initiative for older workers announced... by the Minister of Human Resources and Social Development Canada'' and its relationship to metropolitan areas like Montreal. After Senator Fortier answered the first question, Senator Fraser then asked a supplementary question, to which the minister again provided a response.
In making his point, Senator Murray began by quoting rule 24(1) which states:
24.(1) When the Speaker calls the Question Period, a Senator may, without notice, address an oral question to:
(a) the Leader of the Government in the Senate, if it is a question relating to public affairs,
(b) a Senator who is a Minister of the Crown, if it is a question relating to his ministerial responsibilities...
Senator Murray argued that since Senator Fortier is the Minister of Public Works and Government Services, the question and supplemental question relating to Human Resources and Social Development Canada should not have been addressed to him. Senator Murray explained that while Senator Fortier has political responsibilities on top of his duties as a head of a department, questions directed to him during Question Period must directly relate to his departmental duties and not to other responsibilities, including geographical representation.
A number of Senators also contributed to the discussion. Senator Fraser stated that when Senator Fortier was summoned to this chamber and appointed as a minister, he was "identified as being the minister to represent Montreal.'' Since the senator is publicly known to have this additional duty, it was Senator Fraser's contention that questions relating to Montreal fall within Senator Fortier's ministerial responsibilities.
Senator Comeau noted that while some ministers have "special duties'' assigned to them by the Prime Minister, these responsibilities do not relate to their departmental responsibilities. He argued that questions to ministers during Question Period must deal directly with their departments and not with any other duties.
Finally, Senator Moore suggested that I consult the appropriate records to determine Senator Fortier's responsibilities as a minister in order to guide me as I prepare a ruling.
I wish to thank Honourable Senators who participated in the exchanges on this issue. I have looked into the matter and I am now prepared to rule on the point of order.
The history of rule 24 goes back to December 10, 1968, when a formal question period under Senate Rules was first organized as a feature of Senate sittings. Rule 20 was established, permitting senators to ask questions to the Leader of the Government. On June 14, 1977, an amendment was passed resulting in the wording we now find in rule 24.
In developing our guidelines for Question Period, we have often followed some of the general practices of the House of Commons. That House has dealt with this type of issue before and has established principles to assist their Speaker in managing oral questions. In a decision relating to Question Period on October 16, 1968, Speaker Lamoureux, ruled that:
"... a minister may be asked questions relating to a department for which he has ministerial responsibility or acting ministerial responsibility, but a minister cannot be asked, nor can he answer questions in another capacity, such as being responsible for a province, or part of a province, or, again, as spokesman for a racial or religious group.''
This principle then found its way into the practices of that chamber as reflected in Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms, 6th edition. At paragraph 412, Beauchesne cites Speaker Lamoureux's ruling and repeats the wording of his decision.
Beauchesne's advice is also found in Marleau and Montpetit's House of Commons Procedure and Practice. At page 426 and 427, it states that "a question should not address... any presumed functions, such as party or regional political responsibilities.'' Therefore, it is clear to me that questions which are outside a minister's departmental responsibilities are out of order.
The question then becomes, "What are the ministerial responsibilities of Senator Fortier?''
In Senator Fortier's Commission of Appointment as a minister of the crown, he is identified as the Minister of Public Works and Government Services. The Commission does not mention any regional responsibility for the region of Montreal. I therefore conclude that duties assigned by the Prime Minister to Senator Fortier outside his department are political in nature and are outside his direct administrative responsibilities for Public Works and Government Services Canada.
During Question Period, the only questions put to Senator Fortier that will be in order are those that relate directly to his responsibilities as Minister of Public Works and Government Services.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Reports of Committees
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Stratton, seconded by the Honourable Senator Comeau, for the adoption of the fourth report of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs (Bill C-2, An Act providing for conflict of interest rules, restrictions on election financing and measures respecting administrative transparency, oversight and accountability, with amendments and observations), presented in the Senate on October 26, 2006.
Debate.
Ordered, That with respect to the debate on the motion for the adoption of the fourth report of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs, motions in amendment and subamendment be allowed for debate simultaneously without setting aside debate on the motion for the adoption of the report, and, at the conclusion of the debate, all questions be put to dispose of any and all subamendments, amendments and the main motion.
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Stratton, seconded by the Honourable Senator Comeau, for the adoption of the fourth report of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs (Bill C-2, An Act providing for conflict of interest rules, restrictions on election financing and measures respecting administrative transparency, oversight and accountability, with amendments and observations), presented in the Senate on October 26, 2006.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Milne moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Gill, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Bills
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator LeBreton, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Comeau, for the second reading of Bill S-4, An Act to amend the Constitution Act, 1867 (Senate tenure).
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Fraser moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Hays, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Angus, seconded by the Honourable Senator Tkachuk, for the second reading of Bill S-5, An Act to implement conventions and protocols concluded between Canada and Finland, Mexico and Korea for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on income.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The bill was then read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Angus moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Eyton, that the bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Motions
The Honourable Senator Comeau moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stratton:
That the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance be authorized to examine and report upon the expenditures set out in the Supplementary Estimates (A) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2007, with the exception of Parliament Vote 10.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Comeau moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Cochrane:
That the Standing Joint Committee on the Library of Parliament be authorized to examine the expenditures set out in Parliament Vote 10 of the Supplementary Estimates (A) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2007; and
That a message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House accordingly.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Reports of Committees
Order No. 2 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Consideration of the ninth report (interim) of the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce, entitled: Stemming the Flow of Illicit Money: A Priority for Canada—Parliamentary Review of the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act, tabled in the Senate on October 3, 2006.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Grafstein moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Angus, that the report be adopted.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
With leave,
The Senate reverted to Notices of Motions.
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Banks moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Day:
That the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources have the power to sit today at 5:00 p.m., even though the Senate may then be sitting, and that rule 95(4) be suspended in relation thereto.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Orders No. 1 to 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Grafstein, seconded by the Honourable Senator Callbeck, for the second reading of Bill S-205, An Act to amend the Food and Drugs Act (clean drinking water).
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The bill was then read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Grafstein moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Callbeck, that the bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 5 to 10 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Austin, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., for the second reading of Bill S-215, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act in order to provide tax relief.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Tkachuk moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stratton, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Grafstein, seconded by the Honourable Senator Banks, for the second reading of Bill S-206, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (suicide bombings).
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The bill was then read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Grafstein moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Baker, P.C., that the bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Reports of Committees
Consideration of the third report of the Standing Joint Committee for the Scrutiny of Regulations (Report No. 77 — Tabling of Statutory Instruments), tabled in the Senate on October 26, 2006.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Eyton moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Tkachuk, that the report be adopted.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 2 to 7 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Other
Orders No. 88 (motion), 14, 17 (inquiries), 101 (motion), 9, 7, 15, 3, 5 and 6 (inquiries) were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator Tardif calling the attention of the Senate to questions concerning post-secondary education in Canada.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Losier-Cool moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Corbin, that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Ordered, That Inquiry No. 12 standing in the name of the Honourable Senator Callbeck on the Notice Paper be brought forward.
INQUIRIES
The Honourable Senator Callbeck called the attention of the Senate to the importance of Canadian immigration policy to the economic, social and cultural development of Canada's regions.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Callbeck moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Bacon, that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Ordered, That the motion of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., set down on the Notice Paper earlier this day, be brought forward.
MOTIONS
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C. moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Bryden:
That a Special Committee of the Senate be appointed to examine and report upon the implications of an ageing society in Canada;
That, notwithstanding rule 85(1)(b), the Committee comprise seven members, namely the Honourable Senators Carstairs, P.C., Chaput, Cordy, Johnson, Keon, Mercer, and Murray, P.C., and that three members constitute a quorum;
That the Committee examine the issue of ageing in our society in relation to, but not limited to:
promoting active living and well being;
housing and transportation needs;
financial security and retirement;
abuse and neglect;
health promotion and prevention; and
health care needs, including chronic diseases, medication use, mental health, palliative care, home care and caregiving;
That the Committee review public programs and services for seniors, the gaps that exist in meeting the needs of seniors, and the implications for future service delivery as the population ages;
That the Committee review strategies on ageing implemented in other countries;
That the Committee review Canada's role and obligations in light of the 2002 Madrid International Plan of Action on Ageing;
That the Committee consider the appropriate role of the federal government in helping Canadians age well;
That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records, to examine witnesses, to report from time to time and to print such papers and evidence from day to day as may be ordered by the Committee;
That the Committee have power to adjourn from place to place within Canada;
That the Committee be authorized to permit coverage by electronic media of its public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings;
That, pursuant to rule 95(3)(a), the Committee be authorized to meet during periods that the Senate stands adjourned for a period exceeding one week;
That the Order of Reference to the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology concerning the ageing of the population, adopted by the Senate on June 28, 2006, be withdrawn; and
That the Committee present its final report to the Senate no later than December 31, 2007, and that the Committee retain all powers necessary to publicize the findings of its Final Report until March 31, 2008.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Comeau moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Di Nino, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Ordered, That all remaining items on the Order Paper and Notice Paper be postponed until the next sitting.
REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):
Actuarial Report (including the cost certificate) on the Pension Plan for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, as at March 31, 2005, and certificate of assets of the Pension Plan, pursuant to the Public Pension Reporting Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. 13 (2nd Supp.), sbs. 9(1).—Sessional Paper No. 1/39-542.
Copies of the Federal-Provincial Implementation Amending Agreements with the provinces of Alberta, British Columbia, Manitoba, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, Ontario, Prince Edward Island, Quebec, Saskatchewan and with the Northwest Territories and the Yukon Territory, pursuant to the Farm Income Protection Act, S.C. 1991, c. 22, sbs. 6(1).—Sessional Paper No. 1/39-543.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Comeau moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Di Nino:
That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
(Accordingly, at 5:27 p.m. the Senate was continued until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow.)
Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)
Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade
The name of the Honourable Senator Jaffer substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Mahovlich (October 30).