THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Tuesday, April 16, 2024
The Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry met with videoconference this day at 6:28 p.m. [ET] to examine and report on issues relating to agriculture and forestry generally.
Senator Robert Black (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Good evening, everyone. Thank you for joining us. I’d like to begin by welcoming each of you to the committee meeting and also our witnesses this evening. My name is Rob Black, senator from Ontario, and I chair this committee.
Before we hear from the witnesses, I’d like to start by asking my colleagues around the table to introduce themselves, starting with our deputy chair.
Senator Simons: Good evening. I am Senator Paula Simons from Alberta. I come from Treaty 6 territory.
Senator McNair: Good evening. I am John McNair. I am from the province of New Brunswick.
Senator Klyne: Good evening and welcome. My name is Marty Klyne, a senator from Saskatchewan, Treaty 4 territory.
[Translation]
Senator Petitclerc: Good evening. Chantal Petitclerc, from Quebec.
[English]
Senator Burey: Good evening and welcome. Sharon Burey, senator for Ontario.
Senator Oh: Victor Oh, senator from Ontario.
The Chair: Thank you. Today, the committee is holding its first meeting on a new study on the topic of the growing issue of wildfires in Canada and the consequential effects that wildfires have on forestry and agriculture industries. We’re doing this under our general order of reference, which allows us to do that. We’re still seeking a specific order of reference for the study as well.
We welcome our witnesses: From Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, we welcome Nathalie Gour, Director General, Regional Operations and Emergency Management Directorate; and Francesco Del Bianco, Director General, Business Risk Management Programs Directorate. From Natural Resources Canada, we welcome Glenn Hargrove, Assistant Deputy Minister, Canadian Forest Service. And from Public Safety Canada, we welcome back Kenza El Bied, Director General, Policy and Outreach Directorate. It’s good to have each of you here this evening.
We will begin with the witnesses from Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, followed by Natural Resources Canada and then Public Safety Canada.
Each department will have five minutes for their presentations. I’ll signal that your time is coming to an end. At one minute left, one hand will go up. When both hands are up, it is time to wrap it up.
The floor is yours, Ms. Gour.
[Translation]
Nathalie Gour, Director General, Regional Operations and Emergency Management Directorate, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada: Thank you, Mr. Chair. As a representative for Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, I’m pleased to be here with you today to talk about the growing issue of wildfires and the impact they are having on agriculture and forestry industries across the country.
The impacts of last year’s wildfires on agricultural producers varied across the country.
[English]
In the Northwest Territories, approximately 5,000 poultry were lost due to heavy smoke. In British Columbia, there were approximately 1,000 head of cattle lost. Additionally, thousands of livestock were temporarily relocated away from fire lines to auction houses and agricultural fairgrounds.
In parts of Central Canada, fencing and pasture land were also lost due to wildfires, which further exacerbated hay shortages created by excessive drought levels.
[Translation]
Looking ahead, the 2024 wildfire season could prove to be challenging for the agriculture and agri-food sector.
[English]
The department’s Canadian Drought Monitor report indicates that, as of the end of March, 82% of the country’s agricultural landscape is currently classified as abnormally dry to moderate and exceptional drought conditions.
In anticipation of this year’s wildfire season, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, or AAFC, has taken several steps to further strengthen its ability to prepare and respond to emergency events.
AAFC has developed a Cyclical Event Response Plan which will be used to align the departmental response to sectoral emergencies relating to events of a cyclical nature, primarily flooding, wildland fires, drought, hurricanes or tropical storms.
AAFC has also established a sector emergency operations centre which will play a crucial role in coordinating and managing responses to emergencies or disasters affecting the agricultural sector.
The department is also working with the provinces and territories with consideration to renew the 2016 Emergency Management Framework for Agriculture in Canada, and working to develop an all-hazards emergency preparedness and response plan.
Additionally, our AAFC researchers continue to monitor and report on the drought conditions throughout the monthly Canadian Drought Monitor and the quarterly National Agroclimate Risk Report. These reports are useful tools in assessing the conditions across the country and identifying where fire risks are high. These reports are also publicly available on our website.
Looking ahead, the department is continuing to expand its role in the emergency management space. Additional efforts are under way. We are looking to establish a single-window emergency management information portal for the ag sector, as well as develop and test sector-specific emergency response plans and develop awareness and preparedness materials and training programs.
Producers across the country have access to a suite of federal-provincial-territorial business risk management tools that provide them with protection against income and production losses, helping them manage risks that threaten the viability of their farms. This includes AgriRecovery, which is a disaster relief framework intended to work together with the core business risk management programs to help ag producers recover from natural disasters.
[Translation]
AAFC will continue to work closely with federal, provincial and territorial partners and industry stakeholders to better prepare for, respond to and recover from emergency events, including wildfires. Thank you again for this opportunity, and we look forward to answering your questions.
[English]
I will now turn it back to the chair. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Glenn Hargrove, Assistant Deputy Minister, Canadian Forest Service, Natural Resources Canada: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the committee for this invitation. It is a pleasure to be here on the traditional, unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people.
I am grateful to be here for the first meeting on the growing issue of wildfires in Canada and its effects on the forestry and agriculture industries.
All over the world, people are coping with more frequent and severe wildland fires — a trend largely driven by climate change. The 2023 wildfire season in Canada was historic. We know that the extreme fire occurrence and severity that we saw last summer will continue to occur.
Early indicators point to the potential for another active fire season in 2024, thanks to warmer-than-average temperatures, levels of snowfall, drought and low soil moisture.
It is important to underscore that it is still too early to know how severe this upcoming burning season might be. This early, forecasts can only help to identify areas that could be at risk. It’s also important to remember that the potential for large or damaging fires always exists, even during average conditions.
Our wildfire experts have affirmed that Canada will continue to experience longer burning seasons, larger and more intense fire events and extreme fire weather. This, in turn, will directly and indirectly affect all business sectors, including agriculture and forestry.
The Government of Canada supports more than 200,000 people and over 300 communities who rely on the forest sector for employment and long-term prosperity, and millions more who receive the biodiversity, carbon and human health benefits that forests provide.
Natural Resources Canada plays an important role in wildland fire management. The department is the primary source of federal wildland fire technical and scientific expertise, and delivers essential functions to support wildland fire management. This includes science and subject-matter expertise to inform government reporting and response, the delivery of tools and information for national situational awareness and decision support, as well as leadership on national strategic wildland fire policies and frameworks through strong partnerships with the provinces and territories.
At Natural Resources Canada, we have completed work to assess lessons from the 2023 season and prepare us for 2024. This has included capacity assessments and adjustments, and ongoing work to modernize our decision support tools and information systems.
Additionally, Natural Resources Canada is collaborating with the provinces and territories to advance cost-shared federal investments in equipment, training and new programming to support prevention and mitigation initiatives, such as FireSmart Canada.
No single entity is responsible for the vast array of wildland fire issues. Progress on such a complex issue demands a multi‑layered response. We work in continuous partnership with the provinces and territories, with the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre and with many international partners to ensure we are prepared to respond to fire emergencies and to build resilience over the longer term.
Reducing wildland fire risk requires us to work with all orders of government, including Indigenous governments, the private sector and, ultimately, all Canadians to understand the steps they can take to mitigate wildland fires and build resilience.
Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Kenza El Bied, Director General, Policy and Outreach Directorate, Public Safety Canada: Good evening, chair and committee members. I appreciate the opportunity to be here today on the traditional, unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people to have this discussion on this important topic.
As you all know, emergency management is top of mind for many Canadians as climate change-driven hazards, such as floods and wildfires, represent a mounting threat to their safety and the economic viability of Canadian businesses and communities.
The responsibility for keeping Canadians and their communities is something we share with federal, provincial, territorial, municipal and Indigenous partners. The vast majority of emergencies are managed first at the community level. If additional assistance is required, local jurisdictions can request it from their respective province or territory.
If the emergency escalates beyond the province or territory’s capabilities, the province or territory seeks assistance from the federal government.
The Emergency Management Act legislated the leadership role and responsibilities of the Minister of Public Safety and the Minister of Emergency Preparedness, including coordinating emergency management activities among government institutions and in cooperation with the provinces and other entities. The act acknowledges the shared nature of emergency management in Canada and outlines the responsibilities of other federal ministers as well.
In 2021, the Prime Minister appointed Canada’s first-ever Minister of Emergency Preparedness. This appointment acknowledges the important attention on emergency management in Canada, and the need for clear federal leadership in the face of the evolving risk landscape that Canadians and their communities continue to face.
The Government Operations Centre, housed at Public Safety Canada, facilitates interdepartmental consultation and coordination, and ensures a coherent whole-of-government approach in responding to emergency management activities.
The Federal Emergency Response Plan harmonizes federal emergency response efforts with those of the provinces and territories, non-governmental organizations and the private sector. It allows for horizontal and vertical integration of effort throughout the federal government in response to an emergency, whether it be domestic or across borders.
It is important to underscore that federal leadership is done in close cooperation with provincial and territorial counterparts.
[Translation]
In January 2019, federal, provincial and territorial ministers responsible for emergency management approved Canada’s first‑ever federal, provincial and territorial Emergency Management Strategy. This strategy identifies federal, provincial and territorial priorities that will strengthen Canada’s resilience by 2030. It provides a collaborative, whole-of-society road map for strengthening Canada’s ability to assess, prevent and mitigate risks, as well as prepare for, respond to and recover from them.
[English]
In February, Minister Sajjan and the provincial and territorial ministers responsible for emergency management approved the Advancing the Federal-Provincial-Territorial Emergency Management Strategy: Areas for Action, which sets out the first‑ever shared federal-provincial-territorial vision for strong, resilient communities and calls for strengthened collaboration among all partners in emergency management.
To support all partners in understanding the risks that they face, Public Safety Canada released the first National Risk Profile report in May 2023. The National Risk Profile integrates both scientific evidence and input from stakeholders nationwide, and provides evidence to identify, compare and prioritize which hazards are the most concerning, while highlighting gaps in our ability to prevent, mitigate, respond to and recover from disasters.
[Translation]
Moving forward, the government of Canada will continue to use this evidence base to build awareness of the disaster risks Canada is facing and help inform emergency management and disaster risk reduction programs.
[English]
Recognizing that many partners across Canada are well positioned to provide a range of critical capabilities during times of need, the Government of Canada stood up the Humanitarian Workforce program in 2021. This program provides funding to the Canadian Red Cross, The Salvation Army, St. John Ambulance, and the Search and Rescue Volunteer Association of Canada to build and sustain key capacities to provide surge supports during large-scale emergencies.
[Translation]
As for financial contributions, I would like to mention the Disaster Financial Assistance Arrangements, the means through which the federal government can provide financial assistance to provinces and territories when response and recovery costs exceed what they could reasonably bear.
[English]
I wanted to speak briefly to the upcoming wildfire season, recognizing that might be a significant concern for the committee.
Last week, as committee members would know, federal ministers provided a briefing on the upcoming wildfire season, and it was remarked that early indicators point to another challenging season across the country. We are working closely with all of our emergency management partners to prepare for the coming season. We have a strong governance structure in place and have already engaged with provinces, territories and other partners to ensure that we maintain open communication and a robust state of readiness.
Thank you for listening to my opening remarks.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
We’ll proceed to questions from senators. Again, it’s five minutes per senator with questions and answers, so please keep your questions and answers succinct.
Senator Simons: Thank you all for being here tonight. I come from Alberta — a province that has been hard hit both by forest fires and grassland fires. I’m not sure that I’m reading this dashboard correctly. This appears to say there are currently 54 active wildfires in Alberta, 12 of which are from this year, and the rest are carry-overs. It was a very mild winter. A lot of fires burned underground.
Since we already know where these wildfires are, even if they’re dormant underground, what is the strategy to get out ahead of them before they become active again this spring?
Mr. Hargrove: Thank you for the question. The direct wildfire response is a provincial jurisdiction. We work closely with all the provinces, including the Province of Alberta, to provide our best technical support and advice in terms of mapping hot spots and those sorts of things, and modelling fire predictive behaviour and those sorts of decision support tools, so that we can help the provinces and territories to prepare and to predict, as best as possible, where these hot spots are and where the best efforts can be placed.
Senator Simons: If the fires are burning on reserve — on First Nations land — who has jurisdiction?
Ms. El Bied: With all respect, I think Indigenous Services Canada would be best positioned to respond to that. It’s a mix; there is some programming within the department that could provide support with that, but it’s also a provincial responsibility.
Senator Simons: I wanted to ask about grass fires. The forest wildfires burn longer and perhaps create more air debris, but grass fires can start very quickly and move very quickly. Those of us on the committee who had the privilege of travelling to Alberta this past summer visited a large ranch — the South Porcupine Ranch near Fort Macleod. A few years ago, the ranch experienced a wildfire that burned through all of the natural Prairie grassland and left the grazing diminished for years following that.
Mr. Del Bianco, could you talk to us a bit about what happens when ranchers have their grasslands burned out like that? What kind of response and what resources does the Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada have for them?
Francesco Del Bianco, Director General, Business Risk Management Programs Directorate, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada: A number of business risk management programs are in place to support producers when there are events that threaten the viability of their operations.
There’s AgriStability, where we look at their eligible revenues and expenses. If they have lost pasture land and they had to buy feed, that could impact their production year. We compare it to their historical average. We call it “Olympic average.” We look at five years historically. We remove the best and worst year, and we compare this year to the average of those remaining three years. If it has declined by more than 30%, that will trigger a payment.
There’s also AgriInsurance. Wildfires are an insurable peril. There is forage and pasture insurance in several of the provinces, including Alberta. If they had pasture loss and they had insurance, they could trigger a payment.
There’s also AgriRecovery. We’ve had two AgriRecovery initiatives in British Columbia with regard to wildfires. We look at the existing support programs. There are a number of criteria. We do a joint assessment with the province, and we can also put in place an ad hoc program to help them with the extraordinary costs to resume their operations.
Senator Oh: Thank you, witnesses, for joining us this evening.
How can sustainable forestry practices reduce the risk of wildfires and protect both forestry and agriculture? Anyone can take that question.
Mr. Hargrove: Thank you for the question. It is clear that forest management practices need to increasingly take into account managing for fire and the risk of fire. Some of the things that can be done in order to adapt and reduce the risk include planting different types of species — having a mix — creating firebreaks and reducing fuel loads.
One of the things we’ve seen, particularly in the United States but in Canada as well, is that we’ve become pretty good at fire suppression. That means there’s actually an increase in the fuel load. Historically, we would have a large number of small fires. Now, because the fuel load is larger, we’re seeing larger, more intense fires that are increasingly hard to manage.
We’re also looking at things like traditional Indigenous cultural burning practices that actually have the impact of reducing the fuel load and those sorts of things. There are things that can be done in order to reduce that risk. However, we’ll never reduce that risk to zero. Fire is part of the natural ecosystem in Canada, and, in a country as large as Canada, it’s not possible nor desirable — considering it’s part of the ecology — to reduce that fire risk to zero. There are things we can do over time to reduce the risk of these large catastrophic fires.
Ms. Gour: Thank you for the question. On the agricultural side, we have a framework — the Sustainable Canadian Agricultural Partnership — which is a 60-40 cost shared with the provinces and territories. The provinces are using that framework to launch programs to help prepare for wildfires. For example, recently B.C. announced the Extreme Weather Preparedness for Agriculture Program. It is funding activities, such as improving cooling systems for barns, enhancing shade and heat protection for livestock and crops, protection of storage of feed and fuel, protection of wells, critical infrastructure assessments and retrofitting for farm buildings. That’s one example, but the provinces and territories are the ones using funds from the framework to put in place some of those emergency preparedness plans.
Senator Oh: Normally, once the place is being burnt out, what is the cycle? Is there any forecast of when it’s coming back for future wildfires again?
Mr. Hargrove: As I said, there is a natural sort of cycle in our ecosystems. Normally, it would be decades between fires. What we’re seeing more frequently now are what we call “short‑interval reburns.” We’re seeing fires that occur on the same landscape within a 20-year-or-less period. The challenge with those is that it makes it much less likely that the landscape is going to regenerate naturally on its own without some sort of human intervention.
That’s going to be a real challenge going forward as well for sustainable forest management: How do we make sure that we are taking action to regenerate those types of landscapes?
I should also mention that we are working with the provinces and territories through the Canadian Council of Forest Ministers, or CCFM, on a wildfire prevention and mitigation strategy, so it’s a national strategy under the CCFM. The intent is for that to be published in June of this year.
Senator Oh: Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Petitclerc: I will ask my question in French.
You talked about extreme forest fire events. We saw them, read about them and realize that extreme fires last longer and are more intense. Furthermore, in my province of Quebec, they are happening earlier. Last week in La Presse, it said that the season is starting earlier. SOPFEU already identified 20 fires and stated that the average over the last 10 years was usually four.
My question is the following: What is the impact of it all, especially given that fires are starting earlier, on the need for staff, firefighters and first responders? How does this change things? Do we have them starting earlier? I would imagine we need more people. What does that look like? Does this lead to new challenges in terms of human resources on the ground?
Mr. Hargrove: Thank you for your question. I will answer in English.
[English]
Yes, you’re right; the season is starting earlier and lasting longer. The provinces and territories are also ramping up their activities earlier. They are hiring more firefighters. The federal government is, in fact, supporting the training of more firefighters. Through the Fighting and Managing Wildfires in a Changing Climate Program, we’re investing funds in the training of 1,000 new firefighters. So far through phase 1, we have already trained over 600, as well as 125 Indigenous fire guardians. We’re currently going through the call for proposals for phase 2, so we hope to make announcements around that in the coming weeks.
It is true; there’s also an international aspect to it too. We work through the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre, or CIFFC — the members of which are all part of the provinces and territories and the federal government. We work together with CIFFC to exchange resources as needed. If there are a lot of fires in Quebec but not so many in B.C., B.C. will send some firefighters to help out and vice versa.
We also have MOUs and operational agreements with other countries, where their fire season is different from ours, so we exchange resources. The U.S. is a huge partner with us on that. They’ll send firefighters up here and we’ll send them down there. There’s a strong governance and community, both within the country and globally, to exchange those resources and use them in the most efficient way possible.
Senator Petitclerc: Thank you. Just for my knowledge, regarding those exchanges — for example, between Quebec and B.C. — I assume they were happening before. Now with the changes in length and intensity of fires, it disturbed the flow of things. Was it better before and now it’s just disturbing all of that, or is it in quantity?
Mr. Hargrove: I wouldn’t say it disturbs it. I would just say what we saw last year was unusual in that we had many different parts of the country burning at the same time. Historically, we’ve seen it more where one part will burn at one point and another part, so it was challenging last year — from that perspective — to share resources. We did bring in a large number of international firefighters. It made that coordination and that sharing of resources even more important, and underscored the importance of partnership.
It also underscored how well that system actually works. It was stretched to an unprecedented level, and we were still able — through the system — to respond to needs.
Senator Petitclerc: Thank you.
The Chair: The next series of questions is from our colleague Senator Jaffer, who would have liked to be here this evening, but something came up. Senator Jaffer asks the following:
With climate change projections indicating potentially more frequent and severe wildfires in British Columbia, what adaptive measures are being explored to ensure provinces are prepared for future challenges?
Whoever would like to tackle that.
Ms. El Bied: I can start. Thank you, chair, for the question.
Public Safety has been leading a lot of work around the preparedness and readiness for the upcoming wildfire season, which you all know has already started.
For example, since the onset of the last wildfire season, the Government of Canada has further bolstered emergency response capacity in the national emergency management non‑governmental organization in Canada. In July 2023, the government announced an additional $82 million over three years in capacity-building funding supporting the human training workforce, so working with the four non-governmental organizations, as I indicated in my opening remarks — working with the Canadian Red Cross, St. John Ambulance, and the Search and Rescue Volunteer Association of Canada.
On that, this work started at an early stage. It’s been at least six weeks where we have been engaging with all provinces and territories, trying to get a sense of the capacity they have in place and where the Government of Canada can step in to help and mobilize additional capacity to respond when emergency management has been happening.
We have been also working directly with the national non-governmental organizations to see what capabilities they have in place to mobilize and respond for the next upcoming season. There is a lot of engagement happening from Public Safety, and not only from the policy team but also from the Government Operations Centre, as I indicated in my opening remarks, which plays a big role on coordination when there is emergency management happening in Canada.
This is what I would say from Public Safety’s perspective.
The Chair: Thank you. Anyone else?
Ms. Gour: On our side at Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, we’re also bolstering our emergency preparedness action plans. In addition to that, I would say what we’re doing is investing in best management practices, and investing in programs. I mentioned the Sustainable Canadian Agricultural Partnership earlier, but the department is also investing $1.5 billion to help farmers be more resilient to future extreme weather events, as well as reduce their environmental footprint and make us a leader in sustainable food production.
There is a list of programs, but, essentially, it’s to help producers implement more sustainable strategies on their farm. A few of the programs are the On-Farm Climate Action Fund and the Agricultural Clean Technology Program. We have living labs across the country. There are 14 of them. Those are creating networks of producers and scientists who are working together, and they actually came together during Hurricane Fiona as well.
In addition to that, there is the Resilient Agricultural Landscape Program. We have just launched the Agricultural Methane Reduction Challenge, and, finally, we’re working on a longer-term strategy called the Sustainable Agriculture Strategy, which, again, is with the aim to recover quickly from these extreme events, thrive in a changing climate and meet our climate goals.
The Chair: Thank you. Here is another question from Senator Jaffer: Are there any international partnerships or collaborations in place to exchange best practices and resources for wildfire management prevention?
Yes, please, Mr. Hargrove.
Mr. Hargrove: We actually have memoranda of understanding with eight different countries across the world. We exchange knowledge and best practices and those sorts of things, and we also exchange resources when needed. That’s often personnel, but also equipment and things such as that.
One of the things that we have also learned over the last year is we had previously relied on those official MOUs as the framework for our exchange of resources. We now have also taken a flexible approach where, through the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre, they also work with their counterparts in different countries on operational agreements, where we can also exchange resources outside of an MOU framework. It’s not just those countries that we can exchange with — those eight where we have MOUs. We can also do it with others.
The UN Food and Agriculture Organization is also launching a global fire hub, and we’re working closely with them and other countries on that aspect of international cooperation through the UN. So there is a lot of international work going on as well, and it is a really important aspect of the work.
The Chair: Thanks very much. I appreciate the answer.
Senator Klyne: Welcome to everyone, and thank you for your opening remarks. I appreciate that.
I am going to ask a question of Public Safety Canada. I could probably ask it of most of you, so if you want to jump in, please do so. I want to discuss the Government Operations Centre and what lessons were learned from last year’s wildfire season.
In a recent news conference — which we have touched on here lightly — to release a forecast of weather trends for 2024, it was announced that the federal government is supporting fire agencies across Canada in procuring specialized firefighting equipment through a $256-million fund and training 630 firefighters and 125 fire guardians.
It sounds like the Canadian Forest Service is one of your best customers. I understand you trained all 125 fire guardians. Was it through you?
Mr. Hargrove: That is a Natural Resources Canada program, yes.
Senator Klyne: This is very encouraging news. Could you please share any examples of lessons learned from last year, and tell this committee what you are doing in a pre-emptive way right now? You are ready to go — it sounds like — with emergency preparedness. You know what you will be doing when something happens. Is there anything you are doing now that can maybe mitigate some things from happening?
Ms. El Bied: Thank you for the question. Let me start. I see this question in two parts, so let me just talk about what we have done since right after the wildfire season.
Right after the wildfire season ended very late in September — as you know, there are actually some fires still burning since the last season — the Government Operations Centre undertook a national extensive lessons learned process to ensure that we understood what worked well and to identify critical gaps, if they exist, in the emergency management system. This process has confirmed that despite the scale of the fire season, as well as the regional impacts and the real community impacts that we have seen — and the extraordinary evacuation of Yellowknife — the national consensus is that fire season’s events were collectively well managed.
In terms of preparedness, again stemming from lessons learned the last year, key partners all across the government are collaborating at the moment to ensure that we have a rapid response to share capacity and to elaborate the best available science.
We are also working with many non-governmental organizations, as I indicated a moment ago, in Canada to develop a response and support capacities for Canadians, which includes federal investment.
Our colleagues at Environment and Climate Change Canada and Natural Resources Canada have developed a series of early risk assessments that have been shared and mentioned at the press conference last week.
This is ongoing work that we are trying with the Government Operations Centre, with their mandate. It’s to mobilize all other government departments, looking at our capacity. Each one of us has our own unique mandate to respond to those events, and seeing how we can fulfill our gaps with a more holistic approach.
It is about working with other key partners, I would say, and not forgetting that we are also working very closely with the provinces and territories, because they also have a mandate to respond on this.
Senator Klyne: In your remarks, you mentioned something about evidence-based, and I missed the point on that. Could you repeat that?
Ms. El Bied: Regarding evidence-based, when we are dealing with an emergency management situation itself, there is a lot of engagement with the provinces and the territories and with the key departments. We collect data on a daily basis — situational reports. This information is collected to inform how to respond to any future emergency management.
Senator Burey: Thank you so much for being here. I learned so much from all of you. I’m going to go back to the workforce issue.
Mr. Hargrove, you spoke about the 1,000 firefighters — you have 600, and 125 are Indigenous. I hope I got that right. Are you on target with the number of firefighters that you wanted to train? You did speak about the international cooperation. Are you on target? Will that be enough firefighters? Was this lowballing with the 1,000? I would just like to get a bit more information about the training. Is it enough, and are you on target?
Mr. Hargrove: Thank you for the question. Yes, I would say we’re ahead of the target, actually. Over 600 have been trained through phase 1. We are in phase 2 right now with calls for proposals.
You may also have heard the budget announcement around an $800,000 contribution to the International Association of Fire Fighters. We would work with them through phase 1 as well on a sort of train-the-trainers approach. The $800,000 through this year’s budget will also build on that. This is in addition to the 125 Indigenous fire guardians as well. We are basically ahead of schedule.
Is it enough? It’s a difficult question to answer. There are pressures on the firefighting system across Canada, and that’s one of the reasons for our international cooperation. During last year’s season, over 5,000 international firefighters came to Canada to help. Of course, we’re hugely grateful for that.
That’s why these partnerships — and the work that we do with the provinces and territories, the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre and our international partners — are really critical, because it would be inefficient for each jurisdiction to have the resources to deal with their worst-case scenario. The cooperation is really critical.
Senator Burey: I want to get to the next question because the chair is going to cut me off. I wanted to build on the workforce with the kinds of supports that you have for the workforce. It is really important. I want to ask specifically about mental health supports that you have in place. The government announced — in the 2024 budget — a tax credit for the firefighters. Can you just talk a little bit about mental health and then the tax credit, please?
Ms. El Bied: We can follow up.
Mr. Hargrove: This isn’t really a Natural Resources Canada thing, but the tax credit was increased for volunteer firefighters. That’s a critical piece, because in rural communities, the volunteer firefighting community is absolutely critical for that work. That is something that will help to hopefully keep volunteer firefighters on and attract more.
Mental health was the other question. It’s a really good question. I’m not aware of a federal program for mental health for firefighters per se. Now, that wouldn’t necessarily be a Natural Resources Canada program. I’m not aware of any. Certainly, it is gruelling work, and as the seasons get longer and as these fires get more intense, I’m sure there is a very difficult mental health component to it. It is certainly something that needs to be considered.
Senator Burey: Would anyone else like to comment on that piece? You could get back to us in writing if you know something about that.
Ms. El Bied: Thank you for that. It would be good for these two pieces, because it is not Natural Resources Canada or Public Safety Canada or Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, but we can work with our colleagues and ensure that you get a response on these two follow-up elements.
The Chair: Thank you very much. That can just go to the clerk.
Senator McBean: Thank you. I have a friend who is a rancher in Clinton, B.C., and they have had multiple fires close to their property. They get surrounded by it. I have a friend whose son is currently training in Saskatchewan right now to be this new wave. It is getting closer to all of us.
Senator Oh actually asked a question; Mr. Hargrove, you responded with the language about the fuel load. I remember about 15 or 20 years ago, I did a trip to Yellowstone. They told me that Smokey the Bear having no fires is why it got to this fuel load and the whole thing — whoosh.
I was kind of wondering about forestry and field management. I am not trying to deny climate change. I know it’s getting hotter and drier. But I’m wondering how much we did to create this problem of the fires going on now. I’m being a bit hopeful maybe with the question, but is there any chance that after a few well-managed fires, it kind of gets back to sustainable levels?
My second question is about tree planting and the forests that we created through tree planting. Are they more or less resilient?
Mr. Hargrove: Thank you. Those are great questions. On the first one, the Canadian situation is a little bit different from the U.S., just because the U.S. is so densely populated. For the U.S. Forest Service and the Smokey the Bear ads that everyone saw, they basically had a policy for a decade that all fires had to be put out by the next morning, right? That’s not possible in Canada. To answer your question, there are probably situations where we have been good at suppressing fires in areas that are closer to urban centres or population centres where the fuel load is higher.
There are also, though, very remote areas that are less intensively managed, which are more natural, and those are burning at high rates as well. It is a bit of a mix, and it depends on where.
I’m paraphrasing your question: Are we some kind of targeted intervention away from tipping the scales back? That would probably be overly optimistic of me to say. It’s a fair question.
But that’s not to say that the situation is hopeless. There are things that we can do. It may answer your final question about planted versus natural regeneration. There are things that we can do in terms of adaptive forest management that will reduce the fuel load and create firebreaks and those sorts of things. If we plant species that are more fire-resistant, and those sorts of things, and different ways to clear understorey and things like that, then we can reduce the risk.
We need to figure out what interventions to make, and under what contexts, and prioritize those things. Of course, recognizing that forest management is largely a provincial jurisdiction, and working with the provinces as well on these things, is important. That’s why I think the prevention and mitigation strategy — that we’re working on through the Canadian Council of Forest Ministers — is an important piece of the puzzle.
Senator McBean: It’s not just the trees, as Senator Simons says; it’s the grasses too. We saw what happened in Lahaina which is — did I get a follow-up? I’m new here. I touch the thing all the time. Are we managing the types of grasses and grains that come in for their flammability?
Ms. Gour: There is research done for drought-resistant crops, but I don’t have a whole lot of detail about that. I would have to send some information back to the committee — the research that’s being done, but also the various varieties that are available to help with future mitigation.
Senator McBean: Simple ask: nutritious and non-flammable. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Dalphond: I want to continue along the same lines as Senator McBean’s questions, because I was wondering the same thing. We talk a lot about fighting forest fires, but in terms of prevention — I’m not talking about forests, although forests can be close to certain fields and fire can spread — does the Department of Agriculture have programs to encourage farmers or producers to change their current production to something else that requires less water, meaning they are adapted to drier climates, drier soil, and offer better resiliency if there’s a fire, for example?
I assume they are less profitable than some others. So, financial assistance programs are needed to help with the conversion or, in the short term, to draw an income equivalent to what was better. However, it might be necessary to change production over the long term. It may be naive on my part, and I don’t know the field well enough. I think you are working on this type of program at the department?
Ms. Gour: Thank you for the question. Indeed, we have a $1.5 billion strategic framework shared with the provinces. It does in fact deal with the intention to adopt better practices for agricultural operations. There are programs at the federal level that target best practices, not necessarily for forest fires, but for the sector’s overall sustainability.
We have $1.5 billion for programs to make sure that sectors and producers implement more resilient and sustainable practices over the long term.
Senator Dalphond: I imagine that for corn, for example, several types of corn exist. Maybe one type requires less water than the others. Is that the type of research currently being done?
Ms. Gour: Thank you for the question. I don’t have exact details on research. We could come back to the committee with real examples of research projects at the department with our scientists, but also with provinces and the academic sector.
Senator Dalphond: Thank you.
[English]
Senator McNair: One of the stats that Agriculture and Agri‑Food Canada gave at the very beginning was the fact that 82% of Canada is undergoing some level of drought as of March. For the materials we had as of last September, that figure was 72%. So it would lead one to believe that over winter, the situation has become even worse, if the stats are right.
My question is probably to Mr. Hargrove. Can you give us a sense of how the Canadian Wildland Fire Information System works? In terms of tracking wildfires, is the technology serving us the best that it can be right now? Or are there areas for improvement? I guess when I am saying that, I’m thinking of the Village of Lytton, which was practically destroyed. How do we ensure something like that doesn’t happen again? Or can we ensure something like that — using our best efforts — doesn’t happen again?
Mr. Hargrove: That’s a great question. The Canadian Wildland Fire Information System provides daily mapping and information on fire conditions, and that’s sort of year-round, and then during the season, there is hot spot mapping and things like that. We also draw from other sources of information. During the season, when there are serious fire situations, we work with the provinces and territories and provide fire behaviour modelling, hot spot mapping and things like that. We’re looking at things like fuel load and pulling in information from the Meteorological Service of Canada, from Environment and Climate Change Canada, and doing that predictive kind of analysis to help decision support for the people who are fighting the fires in order to know where to go, and help support that.
One area where we are investing in improvement is a project called WildFireSat. That’s a collaboration between Natural Resources Canada, the Canadian Space Agency and Environment and Climate Change Canada. It’s to create the first purpose-built operational satellite system for monitoring wildfires in the world. It’s going to be operational by 2029. It takes a while to do these things. It will give us twice-daily sort of near real-time information about the fires. That would be at six o’clock in the morning and six o’clock at night. Why that’s important is because the late afternoon or early evening is really the worst time for the fires. To have that information when they are burning at their peak, and also having that information in the morning, will allow us to provide some improved information to help support firefighters as they are actually fighting those fires, like the one in Lytton.
Senator McNair: Intelligence, essentially.
Mr. Hargrove: Exactly, yes.
Senator McNair: With respect to Public Safety Canada, you talked about the improvements that have been done, and things are relatively in place, but I’m thinking of Lytton again. Could you maybe speak to the evacuation policies? Are there areas for improvement, or are we at a stage where the relevant stakeholders are fully engaged and it’s operating smoothly?
Ms. El Bied: Thank you for the question. Actually, I’m going to start my response with just making a point about how emergency management is a shared responsibility encompassing all levels of government, as well as non-governmental organizations, the private sector and individual citizens at the moment, I would say. During an evacuation, it’s not the Government of Canada that makes that decision. It’s joint work. It’s a joint responsibility with the provinces and territories.
What we are doing differently right now, I would say, is mobilizing the needs based on the information that is available as of today, and working based on the lessons learned that we have seen in the last year. So it’s the lessons learned, it’s improvement and it’s engagement with the provinces and territories, working with different key departments. I would like to emphasize what I am saying on the key departments: Indigenous Services Canada when it comes to evacuation for Indigenous communities.
I see two hands, so should I stop?
It’s a shared responsibility. What is really different this year is the engagement and the conversation at the early stage, which we have not done in the past. We’re in April, and the ministers just had a press conference last week. Public servants have been engaging with all the key partners a while ago.
Senator McNair: Everyone is getting the sense of urgency.
Ms. El Bied: Exactly, yes.
The Chair: Thank you. I have a couple of questions. Are there specific incentives or benefits being explored to encourage more individuals to join volunteer firefighting and emergency services to fight wildfires? Any incentives or specific benefits?
Mr. Hargrove: The increase in the tax credit is one. The funding that we’re putting toward training is another. Maybe it’s not around incenting firefighters per se, but something that I haven’t spoken to yet is the investment in the FireSmart program. Under the Wildfire Resilient Futures Initiative — that’s an initiative that is $284 million over five years that was announced in November of 2022 as part of the National Adaptation Strategy — that is expanding the FireSmart program. We’re working with the provinces and territories and the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre to actually implement FireSmart in communities across the country. That’s another important element of the prevention and mitigation strategy.
The Chair: Thank you. Moving on to round two, we’re going to limit to four minutes.
Senator Simons: I’m going to talk about mountain pine beetles. They are little. Mountain pine beetles are thriving because of warmer winters. They have had a devastating effect on forests, especially in the mountain areas. What has been the impact of those beetle infestations and the die-offs on creating more fuel for fire?
Mr. Hargrove: That’s a good question. When those trees die, or start to fall down and that sort of thing, it creates dry fuel loads. The Province of B.C. took great efforts to salvage as much of the beetle-killed wood as possible while it was still commercially useful.
This may be some positive news: The actual beetle population in Alberta has gone down. We’re encouraged by the reduction in the beetle population over the last couple of years.
Senator Simons: One week of minus 50, and all I could think is this had better be killing those beetles.
Mr. Hargrove: There is another thing about the beetles, which is particularly true in B.C., when thinking about the impact of fire on industry: the long-term impact on fibre supply. When you combine the massive fires and the impact that has on the forests with the massive impact that the mountain pine beetles had on those forests, those pressures on the fibre supply can actually reduce the amount of timber that’s available for industry. These things have cumulative effects on industry as well as the environment.
Senator Simons: I’ve got time to ask one follow-up to Senator McBean’s question. Controlled burns are a long‑standing strategy, but I imagine the more drought there is, the more risk there is of a controlled burn ceasing to be controlled. Can we get back to a point where we’re using controlled burns to try to mitigate the spread — to create firebreaks, if nothing else?
Mr. Hargrove: Controlled burns are an important part of the strategy. Part of what we’re doing through the training is focusing on Indigenous communities and trying to bring Indigenous traditional knowledge and cultural practices into that training. We’re also supporting an Indigenous-led Wildland Fire Management Working Group. That’s really taking shape as well.
Yes, that is an important piece of the puzzle. I’ve spoken with leadership in the U.S. Forest Service who have also been trying to increase the use of controlled burns. An important piece of that is communication with the communities to ensure that people understand what you’re doing, why you’re doing it and that sort of thing. There’s that component of it too. It’s definitely a tool in the tool kit that we need to get more accustomed to using.
Senator Klyne: I want to go back to something that Senator McNair had asked, and you had referenced it, Mr. Hargrove. I kind of had the question written down as this was going on.
With these wildfires, especially those that impact communities directly, there must be a huge number of stakeholders in many categories at varying levels and regions. How important and how difficult is it to keep all these stakeholders informed and up to date in real time? I recall some issues with that in the 2023 wildfires. There was one incident with a single road in or out, where they stepped up their game to try to keep people up to date and informed in real time.
Are there any lessons learned there? Do you have a different way of communicating with stakeholders when some have been removed from their communities and others want to get back in — just to keep everybody up to date?
Ms. El Bied: Thank you for the question and for the comment. Based on the information that we got, I have to follow up on this because, honestly, through the lessons learned that we have run, there are always some challenges like that. We are ensuring that people are getting information in a timely manner, and keeping them informed on a daily basis. Sometimes, communication is more than a couple of times during the day as things are being moved. I can follow up if there are any specifics on those key elements that you have raised, as well as what we have learned and how we are addressing this. Based on the information that I have seen lately, however, I cannot remember having seen a specific element regarding that, but I can do a follow-up and provide you with a written response on that.
Senator Klyne: Okay. How about Mr. Hargrove?
Mr. Hargrove: In a more general sense as opposed to an evacuation and an impacted community sense, I think one of the lessons learned from last year was the effectiveness and the importance of doing that proactive kind of communication with Canadians in general and with parliamentarians.
I think there were regular media tech briefs, for example. We just had one last week or the week before. I think those are important for informing Canadians, and giving them a sense that we’re on top of this and sharing the information that we know and what we expect given our best analysis and forecast.
We have a pretty active web presence as well that communicates action that the government is taking. The Canadian Wildland Fire Information System has a website where people can look at maps and so on. It’s not precisely around communication with folks being evacuated under those intense situations, but more around the general communication to make sure that Canadians are as aware as possible about what the situation is.
[Translation]
Senator Petitclerc: I have a few little questions. In Quebec, where I live, SOPFEU reminded us that, according to them, human activity causes 80% of forest fires. My first question is this: Is that 80% figure accurate? Is it like that everywhere? Is that number pretty much the same throughout Canada?
My other questions are the following: Is 80% better or worse than before? Are behaviours considered not very risky 20 or 30 years ago now considered risky due to other factors, such as heat and climate change?
I don’t know if that’s clear. Do you understand what I mean? Is there behaviour that people considered acceptable 20 or 30 years ago, but now think isn’t allowed anymore? My last question is this: Do we need to educate and raise awareness?
[English]
Mr. Hargrove: Thank you. That’s a great question, but 80% sounds high to me. What I’ve heard is closer to 50-50, but that’s the number of fires that are started by either humans or lightning.
From the statistics that I’ve seen, over 90% of the area burned is actually from natural causes. The human-caused fires tend to be closer to population centres. They get put out faster. If you have a lightning strike in the middle of nowhere, however, those fires can spread and are harder to suppress.
I think people are more aware of the risks now than they have been in the past. I think that’s a positive thing. It relates to the national communication strategies and other things that we have done. The provinces and territories do a lot of work in that area too, and I think it’s helpful.
No matter what the immediate cause of the fire is, climate change makes the impacts worse. Whether it’s somebody leaving a campfire going, or throwing a cigarette in the bush, or whatever, if that area is dry and there’s no precipitation to put it out, those fires will spread faster and hotter. No matter what the immediate cause is, climate change actually makes the impacts worse.
Generally speaking, the vast majority of the area burned is from natural causes rather than humans.
Senator Petitclerc: Thank you.
Senator Burey: I want to ask a shorter question. I think Senator McNair spoke about the Canadian Drought Monitor, and instead of 72% — which is the information you had — Ms. Gour, you talked about 84% or 82%.
What was the effect of the intense drought on food production in Canada in 2023?
Ms. Gour: Thank you for the question. I’m not sure I have that specific data. I’m not sure, Mr. Del Bianco, if you have anything on your end from a program perspective.
Senator Burey: On food production, please.
Mr. Del Bianco: We do see that, due to the drought, through AgriInsurance, it covers yields. The AgriInsurance payments went up significantly in terms of the indemnities to cover the loss of production. How that translated in terms of actual production, I don’t have those figures, but I can confirm that the programs did pay out more than they have paid out historically due to a reduction in yields.
Senator Burey: Are we talking about 20% or 30%?
Mr. Del Bianco: It varies by province. We’d have to provide you with that.
Senator Burey: To look into it and to see how much. Thank you.
Mr. Del Bianco: For the payments, it’s multi-peril, so we can’t attribute all the payments to drought, but given the significant increase, I think it’s safe to assume that a lot of those payments were due to the drought conditions.
Senator McNair: Part of the strategy is making sure that the equipment stockpiles are topped up for what looks like a bad season. When we think of equipment, we can’t help but think about water bombers. This was the problem last year: As you indicated, Mr. Hargrove, because the fires were across the whole country, the water bomber fleet was spread particularly thin. Do you see purchases of additional water bombers scheduled for this year, either by the feds or the provinces?
Mr. Hargrove: There are no immediate plans that I’m aware of to purchase water bombers by the feds. To be honest, I don’t know the provinces’ immediate plans for water bomber purchases.
Under the Fighting and Managing Wildfires in a Changing Climate Program, there is an equipment fund. We have agreements with 11 provinces and territories to purchase equipment, but water bombers are not part of that because of the long lead times for procuring water bombers and that sort of thing.
There is the issue of purchasing them, and there is also leasing, renting and things like that. There are different options that are available to the provinces and territories as well. But I don’t have information on the plans of the provinces and territories for water bomber purchases.
Senator McNair: Thank you.
Senator McBean: Senator Burey went here a little bit, but you said something that sparked my curiosity when talking about the long-term fibre supply. If I think about what we’re trying to do, we’re looking at the effects of wildfires on the forestry and agriculture industries.
I’m wondering if you can shine a light on it. What are the different industries — some of it was food production, but it’s going to be the feed for the cattle — that are being affected by this? I hadn’t even thought about fibre supply and all the things that pulp and wood can be used for. Often when we’re talking about wildfires, we’re thinking about communities and homes, yes, but what about the industries? If it’s too soon to have a number for the food that will be affected, if you’re thinking five years down the road, and if there were more regular fires like this, what are the industries that are going to be seeing adverse effects? I’m just spitballing. That’s a Senate term.
Ms. Gour: Thanks. I can start on the agricultural side. I don’t have any specific numbers to provide, but obviously some of the impacts that we know wildfires can specifically have are the following: damage to fields and crops, which we’ve mentioned; the impact to livestock inhaling the smoke; compromised water quality and availability; damaged infrastructure, power lines and machinery; and not to mention the impacts to the supply chain. If we’re not able to access the roads, then how do you get the goods to and from? Transportation. We mentioned this earlier as well, but there’s mental health. There’s a lot of duress on producers when impacts on their operations are involved.
Senator McBean: Does the soot on crops stifle them? You were saying that when there is a short-term reburn, it’s hard for the area to self-generate. What is the turnover? How do you bring that land back? I think of Canada as being super vast, so it’s not like we can go plow the back forty and we’re done.
Mr. Hargrove: Yes, it’s an emerging issue. Basically, there would need to be more direct planting techniques and things like that as opposed to just waiting for the natural seeds to germinate. There needs to be more site preparation, which is done to make the soil more ready to do the planting. That’s in terms of regeneration. You’re right; some of those areas would be in what we call the managed forests, and some of them would be in the unmanaged forests, where it would probably take longer to wait for that natural cycle to work.
In terms of industries, in the forest sector, there are a lot of pressures on the fibre supply across the country. You have the mountain pine beetle in the West and the spruce budworm in the East. You have fires across the country, and you have different conservation measures; there are multiple values that are working on the forest landscape. These things are, in general, putting downward pressure on the fibre supply. If you look at it from a positive perspective, it also creates an impetus for innovation and for making the best and most efficient use of the fibre that’s available, but it is a challenge.
Senator McBean: Do I have time for a follow-up?
The Chair: On round three.
How is the government collaborating with industry stakeholders to develop more resilient risk management strategies for agricultural producers? What are you doing in collaborating with industry stakeholders?
Ms. Gour: Thanks for the question. I mentioned earlier that we are looking at renewing the framework for emergency management. We had launched one in 2016. At that time, it was focused mostly on plant and animal health, and it didn’t really consider cyclical events and climate change as much. So we’re looking to renew that framework.
We have a network called the Food Sector Network, and we have leaders from primary processing and retail. We meet on a regular basis to share information with them, as well as for awareness and preparedness. We’re looking to renew the framework and engage so that we have clear governance in terms of when to share what information. It’s never been used in the past, so it will be a first for us to do that, but I think with the frequency of events we’re seeing, there is a definite need for it.
The Chair: Are you asking for their input as well, or is it one-way communication?
Ms. Gour: We’re definitely consulting, yes.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator Simons: This is a question for Ms. El Bied. There used to be a time when if you told people that there was a fire coming and they should evacuate, they would do that.
In the wake of the COVID pandemic and the convoy protests, we have seen a general sense of distrust of central authority, and a lot of people who are refusing evacuation orders, forcing the RCMP to come in to clear communities sometimes.
From Public Safety Canada’s perspective, do you have a strategy to deal with that human aspect of dealing with wildfire stress?
Ms. El Bied: Thank you for the question. From the Public Safety perspective, this is something we can face in each emergency management event. When there is an emergency management situation happening — let’s say there’s a wildfire and we have been advised by the province or territory that there is an order for evacuation — now we will be the Government Operations Centre within Public Safety and take a lead in organizing coordination with other key partners. There is constant communication on that.
If there is an order for evacuation that the province or territory communicates to the population on the ground, is there any law enforcement to order them to evacuate? That is not in place. The order is being made and we help them. When we are saying, “we help,” it’s the province as well as the federal government because Public Safety has regional staff in each province and territory, and they provide support on the ground when there is emergency management.
It’s education, awareness and a lot of communication, as well as giving assurance to those people who are being impacted that this is for their safety. There is a strong communication plan in place. There is strong coordination in place, but, in the end, as this is a shared responsibility with the provinces and territories, it’s not up to Public Safety Canada to make that order for people to evacuate. It’s a shared responsibility.
Senator Simons: Ms. Gour talked about the dangers to animals from breathing the smoke. We haven’t really talked about the dangers to all the rest of us, and I don’t just mean people who are firefighting, but also people who might be a hundred or a thousand miles away and who are seeing the air so polluted that they wore their masks outside last summer because they couldn’t mow their lawns or have a picnic. It’s out of reach of all your departments, but I don’t know who manages that question of what we are doing with public health generally, even if you’re not in the eye of the fire.
Ms. El Bied: I can start. The Public Health Agency of Canada is part of our governance structure if there is an emergency. I hear your point about what happened last year. Again, I want to emphasize that last year was something we had not seen in Canada ever, so it was the first time.
This morning, we kicked off our Directors General Emergency Management Policy Committee to discuss operations, just to get ready. We talked about that. The Public Health Agency of Canada was at the table, so we have a plan that will be communicated to all Canadians.
Senator Simons: Thank you so much.
Senator Petitclerc: I have a quick question to complement the questions we had on firefighters, the training and the need for more of them. What about pilots for the tanker planes? Do we have enough pilots, or are we doing training? If so, who’s in charge of that? Do we have a program?
Mr. Hargrove: I’m not aware of a pilot training program.
Senator Petitclerc: Is that a challenge?
Mr. Hargrove: To be honest, that’s not a challenge that I’ve heard of, which doesn’t mean it’s not a problem somewhere. That would be more of a provincial jurisdiction.
Senator Petitclerc: I would think so, yes.
Mr. Hargrove: It’s not an issue that I’m aware of specifically.
Senator Petitclerc: I was just curious. Thank you.
Senator McBean: I have a follow-up to the last one on the replanting. We used to send out lots of children — my friends, or all our friends, probably did some tree planting. Are there increased dangers? If we need to be intervening and replanting somewhere that has been affected by fire, is there an increased carbon or carcinogenic risk for people going in and putting their hands through all the burnt carbon? It’s not quite as sweet as sending a child out with 600 trees in a knapsack kind of thing?
Mr. Hargrove: That’s a good question. I don’t know specifically about any studies around carcinogenic impacts or anything like that, although it’s a very good question. Just from a physical perspective, though, those kinds of landscapes can present different kinds of challenges. Yes, they can be harder to access. They can present physical dangers.
Senator McBean: I’ve gone through old-growth forests where you can step on everything and everything is obscuring your way, but you can walk right through it. Is this like shards of trees sticking out everywhere? What does that environment look like?
Mr. Hargrove: The short answer is, yes, it can be challenging to access.
Senator McBean: It’s not easy to go replant these things?
Mr. Hargrove: If I may, just to continue on your last question because there was something I neglected to say, we were talking about fibre supply. One of the interesting challenges in reducing fuel load and adapting to the new reality is that in order to create firebreaks and reduce the fuel load, you actually have to take fibre out of the forest. When you take that out, you want to make something useful out of it, for a whole bunch of different reasons: economics, and even from a carbon perspective, you want to store it, like wood.
Those kinds of things could also create some opportunities potentially, but it’s challenging because it’s not the same as cutting a bunch of wood next to a mill. It’s more distributed, so there are transportation challenges, costs from that and those sorts of things. Those are things to figure out as well. What can we do with this wood? How can we use it most efficiently?
Senator McBean: Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you. Ms. El Bied, Mr. Hargrove, Mr. Del Bianco and Ms. Gour, thank you very much for your testimony and participation this evening. The fact that we had nine senators and three rounds of questions is a good way to start our study on wildfires in Canada, so thanks very much for being here. We do appreciate it.
Colleagues, I want to thank you for being here and your questions. I appreciate your presence and your active participation. As I always do, I want to thank the folks behind us and our colleagues in our offices. Your support is significantly appreciated. We do appreciate our interpreters, the Debates team transcribing this meeting, the committee room attendants, the multimedia services technician, the broadcasting team, the recording centre, ISD and, of course, our page. Thanks very much.
(The committee adjourned.)