Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources
Issue 1 - Evidence - January 26, 2016
OTTAWA, Tuesday, January 26, 2016
The Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources met this day at 5:27 p.m., pursuant to rule 12-13 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]Lynn Gordon, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, as clerk of your committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair. I am ready to receive a motion to that effect.
Senator Mockler: I will nominate Senator Neufeld to be chair of this outstanding committee.
Ms. Gordon: Thank you.
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Mockler that the Honourable Senator Neufeld do take the chair of this committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms. Gordon: I declare the motion carried.
Senator Neufeld, would you like to take the chair?
Senator Richard Neufeld (Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: Thank you, everybody, for your confidence in me. I'm sure we'll have a lot of fun, as we always have, moving forward.
The second item on the agenda is the election of a deputy chair.
Senator MacDonald: I would like to nominate Senator Massicotte for deputy chair.
The Chair: Are we ready for the question?
Senator Ringuette: I move the nomination of Senator Mitchell as deputy chair.
The Chair: Should we maybe have you explain how we do this?
Ms. Gordon: For each motion, we will proceed to a vote on the motion and deal with the motions in the order that they are received.
The Chair: It is moved by the Honourable Senator MacDonald that the Honourable Senator Massicotte be deputy chair of this committee.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Senator Mockler: Yes.
Senator Mitchell: No.
Senator Ringuette: No.
The Chair: We should do a roll call to have the record complete. We will do it alphabetically.
Ms. Gordon: The Honourable Richard Neufeld?
The Chair: I'm abstaining.
Ms. Gordon: The Honourable Senator Bellemare?
Senator Bellemare: Yes.
Ms. Gordon: The Honourable Janice Johnson?
Senator Johnson: Yes.
Ms. Gordon: The Honourable Michael MacDonald?
Senator MacDonald: Yes.
Ms. Gordon: The Honourable Elizabeth Marshall?
Senator Marshall: Yes.
Ms. Gordon: The Honourable Paul Massicotte?
Senator Massicotte: Yes.
Ms. Gordon: The Honourable Percy Mockler?
Senator Mockler: Yes.
Ms. Gordon: The Honourable Grant Mitchell?
Senator Mitchell: No.
Ms. Gordon: The Honourable Pierrette Ringuette?
Senator Ringuette: No.
The Chair: We have six "yeas" for Senator Massicotte and two "nays" for Senator Massicotte.
Senator Johnson: I didn't think we were voting —
The Chair: Pardon me?
I want you to understand what we're doing here. Tell me what you don't understand.
Senator Johnson: I thought this was a secret ballot. I didn't know that was a motion for Senator Massicotte.
The Chair: There is no secret ballot.
Senator Johnson: I thought there were two people running.
The Chair: The rules are a little different, to be perfectly honest. I was surprised when I heard them, too.
Senator Johnson: I'm sorry. I didn't realize that.
The Chair: The first motion you get, you vote on that, and if it carries, then there's no second motion. Is that correct? Someone can propose another motion, and we can vote again if you want.
Does that explain it to you, Senator Johnson? Those are the rules. I can have Ms. Gordon explain them if you'd like.
Senator Bellemare: I just want to make a point.
[Translation]
I do understand that rules are rules, but we may have come to a point where Senate rules must be reviewed, so that elections within committees — probably by secret ballot — would be held in the future. That is the point I wanted to raise.
I admit that I was part of the committee that met in October to discuss procedural rules, when the 40 senators in attendance reached a consensus that a real vote should be held — possibly by secret ballot — within committees. That is sort of the spirit in which I voted.
[English]
Senator Massicotte: I was not very clear what people were voting on. Would you consider having a vote again to make sure people know what they're voting on?
The Chair: We can do that.
Senator Massicotte: It's your call. I just want to make sure people know.
The Chair: That's no problem.
Before we go to a second vote, so everybody knows what they're doing, I'm going to ask the clerk to explain how the rules are in the Senate for voting on this.
Ms. Gordon: The chair is going to put the question on the first motion that was received, which is the motion from Senator MacDonald that the Honourable Senator Massicotte be deputy chair of this committee. If it's requested by the committee, we will conduct the roll call vote on that first motion. Depending on the results, there could be another motion at the end of that or it could be declared defeated or accepted.
The Chair: There is no secret ballot because that's against the Rules of the Senate. It has to be either a voice vote or a roll call. You vote on each one. I'm normally accustomed to seeing two names on the ballot and you check one of them off. That's not the way the world works here. It's an interesting process.
Senator MacDonald: It's certainly transparent.
Senator Johnson: Usually what happens is it's all automatic, but this time, I thought when we had two people running it was —
Senator Mitchell: It was done under the old system. This is a departure from that.
The only argument I would make is there are members who are not here, and they didn't realize it was being done in a new way so they didn't have a chance to vote.
In a sense, if we're doing it in a new way surely one of the elements of that should be forewarning that it's going to be done in a new way. Maybe we should let the nominations stand and have the vote at the next meeting, and then we can work it out.
I know there are some people here who might be quite surprised that we voted when we normally wouldn't operate that way. That's fine, but I think we should give them the chance to vote.
Now that we know who the nominees are and how the system works, I would move that we hold it at the next meeting, giving everybody a chance to consider it.
The Chair: I'm just looking at the people who are missing, Senator Mitchell. Senator Seidman is not here. Senator Ringuette is here. Senator Marshall is here. Senator Patterson. I'm here. Senator Mitchell is here. Senator Mockler is here. Senator McCoy is not here. Senators Massicotte, MacDonald, Johnson and Bellemare are here.
Can I have someone second that motion?
Senator Mockler: Before we go there, Mr. Chairman, I have a question. I don't know if it's a question of clarification or whether it will cloud the issue. Senator Mitchell alluded to it. Are we voting with the old rules or the new rules?
Senator Mitchell: There are no new rules.
The Chair: We're voting with the rules that are in place at the present time. Whether they're old or new, I leave that to you. They are the rules that are here, and I had the committee clerk work with the Clerk's office to make sure we are on the right track.
Senator Mockler: Could you read that rule so we can be apprised of the process?
The Chair: This is blanket. Rule 12-20(4) says:
No Senate committee shall adopt procedures that are inconsistent with the rules or practices of the Senate.
The Senate does not have the practice of holding elections by secret ballot. So that's pretty straightforward.
It was a surprise to me when I found out, too. If anybody here is on the Rules Committee they can maybe change that.
Senator Mitchell: From my point of view it's not a question of whether you have a secret ballot or not. I'm living with that rule, but it is not consistent with our practice. So there will be people who will be very surprised by this. One of them is a colleague from Alberta. Alberta won't be represented on the steering committee or the executive, and Alberta happens to have a great stake in the energy future of this country.
So I will put to the committee's good judgment, its sense of fairness and understanding of the complexity of this nation, and in terms of the traditions of this Senate, that we should defer the vote until next week.
Senator MacDonald: How many sitting members are not here, represented around the table?
The Chair: Senators Seidman and McCoy.
Senator Mitchell: And who are you replacing? So there are three.
Senator MacDonald: So there are two votes.
Senator Marshall: Well, it could be three.
Senator MacDonald: Even if it's three, the margin of the vote is four.
The Chair: First off, at the end of the day, we should entertain Senator Mitchell's motion that we defer it to next time around. I would encourage each one of you to actually go to the rules, have a look at them and figure out what the rules are, and then we will come back next time. Nothing says that we will die if we don't do this today.
I'm trying to make sure this committee works when we're all done. I want everybody to be quite happy with what we're doing. I would encourage that.
Senator Mockler: Mr. Chair, I personally would accept the comments you've made to adapt to the request.
Senator Marshall: I would, too. I agree with that.
Senator MacDonald: I'm fine.
The Chair: Senator Massicotte?
Senator Massicotte: Yes.
The Chair: Is it agreed that the previous vote result be discarded and that the vote on the motion for the deputy chair be deferred until the next meeting?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Can somebody second that? Great. Carried.
Senator Bellemare: Do we also vote for the third member?
The Chair: No. It's just for the chair and deputy chair.
Senator Bellemare: How is the third member chosen?
The Chair: The third member is chosen by consultation between the two leaders from the Senate. In our case, because we still have a majority in the Senate, our leader would suggest who the third person would be.
Are there any other questions about this part of it?
We'll go to Motion No. 4. It's a motion to publish the committee's proceedings. Do I have a mover?
Senator Ringuette: I so move.
The Chair: Carried?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: No. 5 is authorization to hold meetings and receive evidence when a quorum is not present.
Senator Massicotte: I so move.
The Chair: Is everybody agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
Next is the financial report. You all have it.
Senator Massicotte: I so move.
The Chair: Agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
Next is research staff. We have the same research people who have been selected for our committee.
Senator MacDonald: I move the motion.
The Chair: Carried.
No. 8 is the authority to commit funds and certify accounts. It is moved and carried.
The Chair: No. 9 is travel.
Senator Mockler: So moved.
The Chair: Carried.
Next is the designation of members travelling on committee business.
Senator Mockler: So moved.
The Chair: Carried.
Next is travelling and living expenses for witnesses.
Senator Ringuette: So moved.
The Chair: Agreed? Carried.
The next one is broadcasting. Moved? Carried.
No. 13 is our time slot. I'm sure you all love that one. Carried.
We're getting through this stuff fairly quickly.
Next are a couple of things that we could deal with tonight if you'd like to. It's something that we've normally done, and that is that each committee member be allowed to have one staff person present at in camera meetings.
Can I have a mover? Senator Mockler? Carried.
The next one would be that the chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate for the order of reference. The clerk has to distribute it. It's standard; it's a thing that we do every time. It's the general mandate. When we decide to do something different, we have to take it to the Senate, but this is the general mandate that would give us the authority to start doing some stuff. I'll let you look at it if you want to have a read first.
Are there any questions?
[Translation]
Senator Bellemare: Are the committee's research projects known? Will we continue working on existing projects or will we have new research projects?
[English]
The Chair: We would have to start new projects. But I'd like to deal with this, and then we'll deal with the question you're asking.
Senator Bellemare: Okay.
The Chair: Is everybody fine with that?
Senator Mockler: Yes.
The Chair: Any questions about it? None?
Senator Mockler: So moved.
The Chair: Carried.
That ends that part of it. We'll take that to the Senate.
Does anybody have anything in their mind about studies and what they'd like the committee to do? I'm not expecting you to say tonight what you would like to study, but I would like you to give some serious thought to it and come back to the committee. I'm going to ask for your advice on whether you come back next week with items that you'd like to study, and then steering can actually look at them and decide what we're going to do. Or do you want two weeks? That's the first question. Would you like just a week to do this?
I'd rather that we did it in two weeks. We've had lots of time since we had a study, and so people that have been around this table — and most everybody has, except Senator Mockler — probably have had time to run around in their minds what they think they might want to do. To be honest, I'd rather that we started doing something.
Actually, at the latest, perhaps you could come back on February 4 with something. That's the week before the break week. If that's too fast, then we'd have to come back on February 16.
Senator Ringuette: So we would not be meeting next Thursday and Tuesday?
Senator MacDonald: We would meet Thursday.
The Chair: No, we wouldn't meet this Thursday.
Actually, we would meet Thursday because there's been a little change now. We'll be electing a deputy chair at the next meeting, so we need to do that. That would be this Thursday.
What I'm saying is this is Tuesday. It would give you this week and next week, until the next Thursday, to actually think about what you'd like to do and to put something forward so the committee can review it and decide what it wants to do.
Senator Ringuette: So we would be meeting this Thursday on the sole issue of electing a deputy chair?
The Chair: Yes. What's the difference between Tuesday and Thursday?
Senator Massicotte: It's just a question of thinking about it for half an hour and coming up with ideas.
Senator MacDonald: Couldn't we do everything next Tuesday, have the vote and then come forward with our proposals?
The Chair: If that's what you want to do next Tuesday, I'm okay with that. I was giving you until February 4 to come forward.
Senator MacDonald: Next Tuesday is good.
The Chair: So February 2 is enough time?
Senator MacDonald: I think so.
The Chair: All right. We'll do that. We'll come back on February 2. We won't have a meeting this Thursday, January 28. We will have a meeting on February 2, and that will be to hold the vote on deputy chair and give us your input on things you think we should do, and then the steering committee can make decisions about where we are going to go.
There's one other thing. The Commissioner of the Environment has tabled a report, and we might want to invite her to our committee to go over the report. We've done that before.
Senator McCoy: Especially since she addressed pipeline safety and so did we.
The Chair: Yes. It will be dependent on her agenda also, but maybe we could have her on February 4. Lynn will see if we can get her here on February 4, if that works. That's all we would have on the agenda for February 4, but that would be a full meeting. I think it's better we get that done sooner rather than later.
Is there anything else?
(The committee adjourned.)