Proceeding of the Standing Senate Committee on
Human Rights
Issue No. 25 - Evidence - Meeting of February 14, 2018
OTTAWA, Wednesday, February 14, 2018
The Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights met this day at 11:34 a.m. to study the issues relating to the human rights of prisoners in the correctional system.
Senator Wanda Elaine Thomas Bernard (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Good morning.
Before we begin, is it agreed to allow Communications to take photos during our hearing this morning?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you.
Honourable senators, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for being here today, and for those of you following on Facebook Live, as we continue our discussion on the issues relating to the human rights of prisoners in the correctional system.
Today’s meeting will focus on the experiences of Black people in federal prisons as we honour Black History Month. Before we begin, I would like all senators to introduce themselves. We will begin on my right.
Senator Ataullahjan: Salma Ataullahjan from Toronto, Ontario.
Senator Cordy: Jane Cordy from Nova Scotia. Welcome.
Senator Pate: Kim Pate from Ontario.
It’s Valentine’s Day. I just want to take this opportunity to say that the first Valentine’s card was apparently sent by a prisoner to a priest or a warden. I think it’s appropriate we’re studying prisoners’ human rights on Valentine’s Day and the first Valentine’s card was sent by a prisoner.
Senator Hartling: Nancy Hartling from New Brunswick. Welcome.
The Chair: I am Wanda Thomas Bernard, the chair of the committee, and I’m from Nova Scotia.
For our first panel today, we are pleased to welcome by video conference Theresa Halfkenny from the Regional Ethnocultural Advisory Committee. She’s the chair of the Atlantic Region for Correctional Services Canada.
Now, I want to alert everyone that we actually may have some technical problems. There are some problems with the sound. We’ll try our best. We’ll start with you, Ms. Halfkenny, and then we’ll hear from Natalie Charles. If we’re not able to continue today because of the sound, we will reschedule you for another time, but we will start and the floor is yours.
Theresa Halfkenny, Chair, Atlantic Region for Correctional Services Canada, Regional Ethnocultural Advisory Committee: Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to be able to present to the committee today.
I am the chairperson of the Regional Ethnocultural Advisory Committee in the Atlantic Region, and on our committee —
The Chair: I’m so sorry, Ms. Halfkenny, but they are unable to do the interpretation, so we will not be able to take your testimony today. I’m so sorry about this.
Ms. Halfkenny: That’s okay. Technology.
The Chair: It’s wonderful when it works. It’s a problem with the interpretation. We cannot proceed if the interpreters are not able to hear. We will be in touch with you to reschedule.
Ms. Halfkenny: That sounds good.
The Chair: If you want to and have the time to stay on the screen and listen to Ms. Charles and her presentation, you’re welcome to do that.
Ms. Halfkenny: Okay. I will do that.
The Chair: Thank you.
We’re very pleased that our second speaker is actually here early and she will be able to speak to us now.
So we are pleased to have Ms. Natalie Charles joining us in Ottawa. She’s going to speak to us about her experiences as a person who has been a prisoner in the federal system. She is supported by Ms. Sophia Brown Ramsay whom we met last week when we were in Kitchener. She’s also with the Ethnocultural Advisory Committee in the Ontario region.
Ms. Charles, we will invite you now to share with us. I know you want to talk to us about your story, your experience, and then senators will have questions. Thank you very much.
Natalie Charles, Former Federal Prisoner, as an individual: Thank you so much for having me. My name is Natalie Charles and I am from Toronto. I just want to share my unique story with you, because I have been involved with the young offenders. I was a young offender and I was also charged as an adult as well, so my story is a little bit different.
Just to tell you a little bit about myself, I got involved — sorry, I’m just a little nervous so my voice is a bit shaky. I was involved with the law at a very young age. It could have been maybe 13 or 14 years old and it went up until I was in about in my mid-20s.
As a young offender, I was very foolish. I had a boyfriend and he did his things and I ended up getting myself into problems as a result of fighting and just being disobedient. As an adult now, I ended up getting myself involved with some things that I shouldn’t have done, which also led to me being incarcerated as well.
Being incarcerated, it’s a balance of both. It taught me both positive and negative. Starting with the positive, with it being positive, you don’t want to go back in there. You don’t want to disappoint your family and disappoint yourself. The negative aspect of it is that you meet other people that are either involved in what you are or worse than what you are actually involved in, so then you start making connections with other people who are actually inside of the jail, which is not a good thing.
Also, I find that there was a lot of racism. There was a lot of violence and a lot of deception that was inside of just the jail system itself. If they knew you came from a certain area or they didn’t like you, they would put you in a certain cell to allow you to get yourself hurt. There are so many things.
What else is there to say? There’s so much.
What it taught me, most importantly, is that having a life of getting into trouble is not the way to be. It’s not good. I’m 39 years old and I’m struggling right now. This criminal record of mine is like a cloud over my head that cannot seem to go away.
I try everything in my power. Right now I’m currently enrolled in the paralegal program and I’m going to be done in April. I put a pardon in prior to this time and I waited five years to hear something back. When I did, it wasn’t great news, unfortunately. However, it didn’t stop me. I reapplied again, and I have another year, which is going to be coming in August, for me to hear something.
Right now I’m nerve-wracked. I have a placement that’s coming up. My record is a huge damper on it because the placements that I want are all government-run and they all want a criminal record check.
I feel like I’m blocked, I’m stopped, but the way that I look at it is wherever there’s a will, there’s a way. I’m trying my best now to overcome my past, because my past has really affected my future. When you think you’re okay, the fact of the record, the criminal record, it’s a huge, huge effect on people’s lives. I wish that there were either some programs that were available, let’s say for young offenders.
I remember when I was younger they had an African Canadian court worker who used to come, and it was a little different — well, quite different from, let’s say, the John Howard Society or the Elizabeth Fry Society, which was more geared towards my culture, and they would help us to a greater extent than John Howard would do, because John Howard, let’s say, had a list of dockets that they had to go through. So if there were 30 people inside, they had 30 people to speak with, whereas the African Canadian court worker, it just addressed our community. So we got more time with them, more time to explain what’s going on, for them to help us to find either sureties or calling for your lawyer or things like that.
It’s a lot. When I was incarcerated, my sister was actually maybe two years old, and that’s what had me turn my life around. I did not want to have my sister come into this type of environment and seeing me locked up, seeing me just in a dark place in my life. I’ve learnt a lot. I can smile with you guys now because I’ve come so far and I want so much more out of life. I really hope that there’s something that can be put in place for African Canadians, that we can have a little more support, like even support in all different areas. Like even support in the school system to let people know the effect of a criminal record and what it can cause to you.
We’re already racially profiled like every day that we live, whether your pants are sagging down. You’re already in this category, this stigma, so it would be nice to have somebody to educate our community a little bit more on what we should — where you want to go, goals.
Just to give you a little touch, when I started getting myself involved with criminal activity, I had a guidance counsellor, actually, and I told my guidance counsellor that I wanted to become a lawyer. My guidance counsellor at that point told me, “You’re a little bit old and you’re pregnant so maybe you should just do ECE.” At that point it kind of derailed me. I don’t have a goal now. I don’t know where I’m going or what I’m going to do. It was just more being lost and involved more with the law because I didn’t have a goal or anything I was looking forward to.
So having a support system in place, I think, for youth is very important. For adults I think there should be some form of rehabilitation program that should be put in place. Like, I haven’t been in trouble — my son is 11 years old. I haven’t been in trouble in maybe 15 years. I would love to be rehabilitated or considered to be rehabilitated, considered to be bondable, and I’m not at this point. It’s a waiting game for me.
My future lies on this. My mother passed away nearly 10 years ago. I am the sole provider for my family, and my sister just turned — I have taken care of my sister since she was 15. My son was a month and a half and my daughter was 10.
When my mom passed away it was more than just “it’s time for you to step up to the plate,” but it’s very important for me to do this because they rely so much on me. I need a break.
I’m not the same person that I was five years ago, two years ago, 10, 15 or 20 years ago. I’m a completely different person. I wish there was even something available so that you could go and speak, maybe, show what you’ve done in the community to give back, that you would be considered to be rehabilitated. Anything along the line that you can be considered to be a good citizen.
The Chair: Thank you so much, Ms. Charles, for your testimony today. The senators do have some questions.
Senator Ataullahjan: Thank you, Ms. Charles, for sharing your story with us. I think you’ve done very well. You know, 15 years.
Since we started this study, we are realizing things need to change. We need more help and support for young offenders, especially, once they leave prison.
Last week when we visited the women’s prison, we heard horrible stories of racism, including name calling by some of the staff, stuff that I will not even repeat. Was that your experience, too?
Ms. Charles: If you do stuff that they don’t like, or let’s say you’re mouthy or you stand up for yourself, that’s considered you’re being defiant. So then you have this name or this stigma that you’re defiant and all the other guards have it out for you. If they’re not calling you derogatory names, they will all come in and fight you, let’s say in the washroom or in your cell. Mainly they come into your cell because they sometimes put one person to a room. So they will come into your room and literally two, three or four of them fight you. Then you’re being charged or considered as obstructing justice and then you’re being put in seg, or solitary. You have to be by yourself. That’s happened to me quite a few times. It was where I was just trying to defend myself in terms of I had nothing to do with anything. I was just trying to tell my side of the story, but I guess I was loud or I came across as being loud or belligerent and then I ended up in seg.
Senator Ataullahjan: We also heard that the experience was if prisoners complained there were repercussions.
Ms. Charles: Oh, yes.
Senator Ataullahjan: Effectively, no one wanted to complain.
Ms. Charles: You can’t complain. If you complain, it goes around in a circle. It’s similar to the police. If you have a complaint, you have to complain basically to the sergeant. Then when you go there, they’ve opened up a PRC, or something, where you can complain to the people above them. But it’s still the police that handle your case. How does that make my feel secure?
If there was something to handle it — like an independent body that was outside of the court or outside of the jail system — that didn’t have anything to do with them, sure you would probably hear tons of complaints. Remember, though, that they’re responsible. Your life is in their hands, so you have to comply. You can’t complain.
Senator Ataullahjan: Was there any kind of support system there? When you felt you were really alone, was there anyone there that you could rely on? Was there a group? Is there any kind of support available?
Ms. Charles: No, there’s none at all — no support or counselling systems. Let’s say you get injured and you call the doctor or the nurse — sorry, it’s a nurse that’s in there. The nurse comes, but is limited to what they can say. If you get beat up and they have to cover the wounds of what they did to you, you can’t say anything because it’s very limited. There’s no support system. There’s no one to say what happened? Are you okay? Let an outside body come into the prisons to see how the inmates are doing; that is, someone who would randomly show up. That’s what needs to be done.
Senator Ataullahjan: You said that when ethnocultural people came to speak to you, you felt there was support there and that you could learn from them. Do you do any speaking engagements? Do you go out in the community and speak to young people and share your experiences and how you would have done things differently? As you said, you were foolish. You got involved in crime at the age of 13 or 14. The young people need to hear that. If you haven’t, maybe it’s something you should do.
Ms. Charles: To be honest, that is something I’ve been thinking about doing that. I’ve been thinking about it for a very long time, but the resources that we have within our community are very limited. I had an incident — not to get too personal with my problems — where I was looking for people within my community to help me and there was no one. The frustration and the anger that I had were unbelievable.
I wish we could have a place with lawyers, or counsellors, or advocates, in one spot who would be able to say, “This is what’s happening within our community,” whether it’s in the jail system or in CAS — or in the school systems, right? Remember, we get targeted from a young age. Our target comes from school. When it comes to school, you become an adolescent in high school. When you start wearing your pants sagging down you fit into a different bracket, right? And if you get in trouble with the law now, that’s it.
Senator Cordy: Thank you very much, Ms. Charles, for telling your story. It’s when we can hear the stories from individuals that we know that we have to make recommendations that will make a difference. So thank you very much. It’s nice to see you again Ms. Brown Ramsay after last week.
Last week was my first time ever being in a women’s prison or a man’s prison the day before. When I was in the solitary confinement area, I felt such a sense of despair and lack of hope for anyone who would even be in there. Is that what happens when you go in there as a prisoner? I was leaving that day. What happens when you get put in solitary?
Ms. Charles: First, they take out your mattress. You’re confined to that room. Why would you take out the mattress when I have to lay down? You would have to lay down on a hard concrete surface, and then you have a small window. The room is very tiny. If you don’t pace up and down, it’s like you’re going crazy.
If you’re a troublemaker, let’s say you’re making noise, you’re not going to get a shower. You don’t get a shower. But if you’re quiet and you don’t have anything much to say, you will be able to get a shower. It’s literally like going crazy. It’s like you’re going crazy because you’re locked up and you can’t go anywhere. I had to spend two weeks in there. I felt like I was going to go nuts.
Senator Cordy: Because the room wasn’t very big?
Ms. Charles: It wasn’t very big and I didn’t have a mattress. And you can’t speak to anyone. Even when I wanted to try to speak to plead my case and say this isn’t what happened, I couldn’t even get to speak to the person in charge. They shut you down. The guards won’t allow you to go above them when you’re in there so you have no hope. There’s no humanity; there’s no hope. It’s nothing. You cannot.
Senator Cordy: We heard stories similar to yours about racism within the system. We met with different groups and we heard that they often felt that one racial or ethnic group was being pitted against another racial or ethnic group. Is that your experience?
Ms. Charles: That also goes with the area that you come with. As I said earlier, you get in and let’s say you’re from a certain part of Toronto and the other range is from a certain part of Toronto. They know that you’ve been there before and you’re just a troublemaker. So they’re going to put you on this range. So you end up getting beat up by the other prisoners that are there because either you’re not from the area or you have had a problem with them before. They are all aware of this and they do it deliberately anyway.
Senator Cordy: I was struck by one of your comments that you need a break. I’m sure there are others in your position that you need a break. Someone has to give you an opportunity. The pardon would be an example of giving you a break. What are we not doing and what should we be doing for the people who have been trouble-free for, in your case, 15 years? How long does it take before you can prove yourself?
Ms. Charles: Is that with the pardons from the Parole Board? With the Parole Board, if it’s a summary conviction — and they recently changed it — I believe it’s now five years or something; indictable offences are eight or ten years, I believe. But that’s the rehabilitation in order for you to apply.
Another thing that’s not mentioned in that is that if you get fees or victim surcharges and you don’t pay those fees, by the time you go to apply for your pardon and you find out you have paid your fees and you pay them, then that day one starts from when you paid your fees. You could have had no contact with the law for 10 years and had victim surcharges and not been aware of that or no one explained these things to you. Then you go to apply for your pardon and now you have fees.
I’m saying this because that’s what happened to me, and they wanted to start it from the year I paid the fees. I went higher and above and I had to complain, and that’s when they accepted it, because I wouldn’t stop. When they told me “Oh, we can’t,” I kept on pushing. I’m said, “I was unaware of my fees. What can I do?” If somebody isn’t as strong as me and they get stopped in that, they’re going to wait a year, right?
I don’t know what would be considered a reasonable time to consider somebody to be rehabilitated, but I know that, if you’re demonstrating yourself within the community and school and working and things like that, there should be something that should be put in place, even if it’s a different category, maybe, where you say, “Okay, yes, you’ve been in trouble with the law, but you are considered partially rehabilitated,” something where it at least gives the employers a sense of security to say, “Okay, yes, this person has been in trouble. However, this is what is going on now.”
Senator Pate: It’s actually five years after summary conviction you’d have to wait.
Ms. Charles: Yes.
Senator Pate: Did you say they made an exception? They gave you a year after the victim surcharge was paid?
Ms. Charles: No. What had happened was I had to pay fees. When you pay your fees, your one year starts from the day that you pay the fees. So the one year for you to apply for the application goes from the day that you pay the fees.
But my years were already up. So when I was trying to apply for my application now, they weren’t accepting it because I had fees. But then my year would have started from then, when my year could have started from now.
Senator Pate: When you say year, you mean the five years.
Ms. Charles: Yes.
Senator Andreychuk: So many areas we could cover. I see your strength. You said it would have been good if you had received some information earlier on, when you were starting out on a negative behaviour, to know what the consequences of a criminal record would be.
I’ve struggled with that. Parents have told me, “If they’re on a negative path, they don’t listen to, This is going to affect you.” I was involved with Scared Straight programs, where we had lifers come in and talk to young kids to say, “Don’t go on the path I took because you’re going to end up like me.” It worked for a while, and it didn’t.
You put your life together, and you’re trying to straighten out. What kinds of programs would work in school? It seems counsellors, some parents, some NGOs that work in corrections do tell young people, when they’re starting out, “Don’t,” but it doesn’t resonate any more than when I mother said don’t.
Ms. Charles: I was just about to say that too. Me starting out, when my mom was telling me, “Natalie, you can’t do this; this is going to affect you,” I was just like, “Oh, mom, please, just be quiet.” Hearing stuff from your parents, it’s like you can shove it under the rug.
When you start hearing things from other people, you’re still caught up in the life and that world that you’re living in. What other people are kind of saying to you doesn’t matter. If you had the proper advocacy where it’s like — not to put you on the spot; I’m so sorry. Can I just tell you about Sophia and I? I met Sophia when I was incarcerated. I was about maybe 15 years old, and I had been sentenced to open custody. When I went into the open custody, I met Sophia, and, at that point, as I told you, my sister was also very young. But, the information and the support that I got from Sophia, at that point, I knew I did not want to get in trouble any more. At that point, I knew, okay, you know what? There are greater things to me because she told me. She was pointing things out about me that I didn’t know. Up to today, she still does the same thing.
I called her just the other day to say, “I want to apply for a placement that’s in the government. Should I apply? What do I do?” And it’s support beyond support beyond support. If there were more agencies or more support systems that were like her or what she has to offer, I think that it would be a lot more effective, where it’s not that you’re speaking about what you’re doing wrong. That’s the thing. People are speaking about, “You’re getting yourself in trouble. You’re doing this wrong.” But you’re not speaking about how fabulous I am. You’re not speaking about how great I can be. You’re not speaking about the fact that I am this phenomenal person, and I can be this person if I just choose to change my life. You’re not telling me those things. You’re telling me that I’m getting myself in trouble. You’re telling me that I need to change, and “You need to do this.” But I don’t want to do that because you’re telling me that I need to, but, if you tell me a little bit about myself and tell me, “You know what?” When the lady told me, the counsellor said, “You can’t be that lawyer,” and Sophia is saying, “Yes, you can be that lawyer, and you can be anything that you want to be.”
I tell my son this every day. I play Les Brown for my son every day. My son is ten years old, and I let him know, “You could probably even be the President of the United States. You can be anything you want.” This is what I try to instill in his head from a young age because it wasn’t instilled in mine, and my trouble came when my mother met my stepfather, where he wasn’t a good fit for my mom. That’s where my problems came, the head clashing came. So, when she was to speak to me now, it would be like, “Whatever.” Then, as I said, when I met Sophia and she was telling me other things, it was about me. It was about me. That was the difference. I could make a difference to me. That’s what made me want to change my life. That’s the type of community services or support systems you need, that are more like this, where they genuinely care about our community and individuals, where it’s not just about money or not just a show. It’s not just a face. It’s there.
Senator Martin: I just have one question for Ms. Charles because I did come a little bit late. I apologize. So I missed your full testimony, but I have been wondering: Who is this person next to you, really encouraging you? I missed that, but your explanation clarifies that.
But I was also wondering, as you’re speaking about being that advocate yourself — you’re very well-spoken, and your honesty, your authenticity comes through so clearly — whether there might be an opportunity for you to be that person, in whatever organization or non-profit or advocacy work it may be.
You’ve mentioned that you have been thinking about it, but I just sort of see someone who presents so well and the fact that you have the direct experience. I think your voice will carry such weight.
As I said, I’ve learned a lot just from the time that you have spoken, and to just encourage you. It’s not so much a question but more of an observation and encouragement to you and to thank Sophia for the good work that she is doing as well.
Senator Andreychuk: I have dealt with so many young people. The influence was often a boyfriend or a close girlfriend, and the parents were struggling. There was less capability of penetrating the good part of you then.
Is part of your success with your mentor here the fact that you’d already experienced an incarceration, a custody, and that that resonated with you, and then along came the right help to get you out of the system? One of the things we’re looking at is, those who are incarcerated, how do you bring them back into society in a positive way? Was your timing the right thing there? Is that part of it? Would you have listened to her as you were starting out?
Ms. Charles: When I met Sophia, I was pretty much involved heavily because I was 15, and about 14, 15 were like the real rough times of my life. But you have to come to a point where you realize within yourself that you want more, and you want better. If you can’t analyze that for yourself and figure that out, that’s where the problem lies. So it’s not only that I got the support. Yes, but I had to realize that this wasn’t the life for me. I didn’t like people telling me to go to sleep. I didn’t like people telling me what to do in terms of, “You’ve got to go to bed. You can eat now. Now it’s time to go back to sleep.”
There was just so much more to life than just that. My mom was a single mom. My mom actually worked over 20 years in Revenue Canada, so, even though she is a single mom, my mom was an amazing woman that worked an amazing job. And she studied. So I grew up seeing that. I grew up in a very good home because she provided love and things to me that a mother always does. However, it’s just where you have to realize that, okay, I couldn’t take my behaviour anymore. I used to see my mom in tears and my behaviour was hurting her.
Again, you have to analyze that you either continue to do these things and you’re hurting yourself and your loved ones, like my mom, or change. When you have somebody who tells you that, okay, you’re not just a criminal, you’re not just a person who gets in trouble all the time and this is what your life is, that you could be more than this, you can be better than this, then I start looking at my mom and my mom studying every day and how tremendous she is every day with her suits and her little briefcase bag, pulling and going to work. And I’m like, am I going to be like my mom, where I’m going to be the successful Black woman, or am I going to be like friends, where you’re going nowhere, you’re heading down the wrong path? That’s a point where I came when I met you at the open custody and I was like, okay, this is where I had the right road and the left road, so which road are you choosing to go down? That’s where I had to do the balance of the scale.
Senator Pate: Thank you very much. Nice to see you again. I’m very pleased to welcome you here.
Ms. Charles, I just want to check: Was it federal and provincial custody you were in?
Ms. Charles: Yes.
Senator Pate: Was it the Grand Valley Institution?
Ms. Charles: It was in Maplehurst. I was in Vanier when it was Vanier first, and then I was out in Maplehurst.
Senator Pate: So that would be the provincial corrections?
Ms. Charles: Yes.
Senator Pate: Does the ombud’s office ever visit there? In provincial corrections the ombud’s office of each province and territory is supposed to monitor what’s happening in corrections.
Ms. Charles: I’ve never seen them, ever. And this is actually my first time even hearing there was an ombudsman like that. Had I known even back then, I probably would have filed complaints.
Senator Pate: In terms of the issues we’re looking at, we’re predominantly looking at federal custody and so in federal system, for instance, there’s a correctional investigator that goes in regularly. For prisons for women there are regional advocacy teams that go in and women in prison who are hired to actually work as advocates, but it sounds like there was none of that and to my knowledge there is still none of that at Vanier, the Lindsay jail or Milton — Maplehurst.
Ms. Charles: Maplehurst is the Milton.
Senator Pate: Yes, sorry. There was none of that in there?
Ms. Charles: No.
Senator Pate: What kinds of recommendations would you make to try and prevent young people from being in the situation you are? I think you’ve said some of that. And then I want to ask you a bit about the record process, if that’s okay.
Ms. Charles: That’s fine.
They close a lot of community centres. Things to do to prevent, I would say activities, after-school programs with kids and extra-extracurricular activities that are within the school programs even. I remember going swimming. I remember learning a lot of different things growing up and when I went to elementary school. They don’t have that now. If there were some kind of activities, even when you get to a certain age, like even in high school, you want to know what you want to be. If there were certain things put in place to steer you towards that. If you want to do nursing, there would be courses you would take that would help you to get to that destination.
I think the counsellors or someone needs to be involved where you can get into these children’s heads at a young age to say: What do you want to do? What do you want to be? What would you like? What sports do you like? Not everybody likes school. Maybe you could be a trades person. None of these things are even talked about. Okay, I know you don’t like school, well, have you thought about doing a trade? If you don’t do school now, you’re considered an idiot. So then you have school, school, school. Well, I don’t like school. I don’t want to do school. So what’s my next alternative? Well, if you don’t do school you’re a dropout.
There’s nothing there that says if you don’t do school, you can do training or skilled working and there’s nothing there. If these things are put in place, especially for kids who know that, okay, I don’t like school, for Black men especially, little Black boys; I don’t like school, so I can go do work with my hands.
I say the same thing to my son. I realize my son doesn’t like to read. I’m like okay, I try to show him other stuff like engineering. He’s into these video games and I tell him he could build a video game and be a video game designer. There are other things you can do and it may not just be the choice to be a doctor or a lawyer. I think if that was put in place, where they know they have options and there are also extracurricular activities, not just basketball or soccer but other stuff since you don’t know where your talent is. You don’t know what you’re best at.
Senator Pate: Things to encourage young people?
Ms. Charles: Yes.
Senator Pate: Madam Chair, I’m at your disposal. My question is about pardon, so it’s not really a supplementary. Do you want me to wait for second round?
The Chair: Yes. I’m not sure if we’ll get to a second round at this time, because we have the second panel. We will invite the two of you to stay with us in case we have more technical problems. If there’s time at the end, we’ll do the second round at the end.
Senator Hartling: Thank you, and welcome. Ms. Charles, you’re a wonderful speaker, very motivational to hear you speak with lots of good energy. I see Sophia in you. I’m sure you will be a great mentor for people.
I’m trying to follow the story of what you went through. Were you a parent when you were incarcerated or not?
Ms. Charles: I was incarcerated as a young offender. I was incarcerated when my daughter was born, yes, because I was 18.
Senator Hartling: Tell me about that. How did you keep the relationship going? How was that?
Ms. Charles: It was rough because I didn’t spend a lot of time in there, which I can thank the Lord for that, because the gap of the time that I got in trouble was a bit spaced out. As I said, when I met Sophia I stopped getting into trouble for a while and then I got back into trouble again. When they looked at the time I didn’t get in trouble, I wasn’t incarcerated for so long. They gave me weekends, so I did my 90 days on the weekends and that alone was like, okay, I’m not going to see her now. I wouldn’t see her Friday evening and then I had to come back Monday morning. My weekends that were supposed to be designated for her are now taken away because I had to go to Milton.
Senator Hartling: That must have been challenging for you and for other mothers who are there. How do you cope with that?
Ms. Charles: This is where you become religious. As I said, there’s good and there’s bad. I said that earlier on. This is one of the positives. You become religious. You start praying. You start seeking the Lord and you start asking for more strength and guidance. If I didn’t do that, then I don’t know, because that’s the only thing I can honestly think of that gave me the strength to be able to cope with that. Because it was the hardest thing. I had to leave, depart from her and know that I’m going in here and I’m locked up now and then I wouldn’t even call for the weekend because you have to do collect calls and then you have 15 or 20 minutes or something and then it cuts off on you. I didn’t want her to hear that. It was brutal. That one was brutal.
Senator Hartling: I know that we’ve learned, in visiting some of the institutions, that you can’t even have computer access, where nowadays when we’re away from our family we can do FaceTime and all those things and you didn’t have that or anything to keep those connections. I’m sure that was difficult, but now you’re with them. How old is your daughter now?
Ms. Charles: She’s 21. I have a 21-year-old and a 10-year-old. He will be 11 soon.
Senator Hartling: Thank you, again. I really appreciate your coming here.
Ms. Charles: Thank you so much for having me.
The Chair: I actually have a supplemental following Senator Hartling’s question. You said this is when you become religious and the whole focus on spirituality. In some instances we’ve heard of religious groups that will go into prisons to provide that connection for prisoners. Did you have any of that experience along the way?
Ms. Charles: I did.
The Chair: Can you tell us about that?
Ms. Charles: They come in and speak, and you can do Bible studies and they have a chapel where you can go to pray. Before Vanier went to Milton, they had a little spot in Brampton. I was in that one in Brampton and that’s when I was in solitary confinement for so long. That’s when you try. Every day I prayed because, as I said, you’re in this little room, you’re locked up in the room and it can make you go crazy, you know. You just start to talk to yourself. I don’t know.
I started going to the church that was there, because they would have the church and stuff. I found that was a bit more helpful. Because, again, when you hear the word of God, it gives you that power to go on for the week until you hear it again and you get the other set of power again. It would give me my strength for the week. That’s where I found that I had to go to this church, that I would get my strength from there.
Senator Martin: My questions are related. I was going to say I feel that way myself, where on a weekly basis, just to kind of get the reassurance from the higher place.
My question is about when you were talking to your son and what you say to him, the positive messaging. It sounds like you have these positive relationships. I was curious about the impact on the children, maybe long term. Unfortunately, we see how times the cycle repeats itself. It’s very difficult.
You mentioned that if there were more programs in the communities and the schools that really would support the children, not just for all children but specifically for children whose parent has a record and who may have been separated from them. I was wondering what kind of support, say, your children or children that you’re aware of may have while you’re in prison. Are there community organizations? Is there any counselling focusing on children of former inmates? Because I think that’s a very specialized area.
Ms. Charles: That’s extremely important. To my knowledge, there is none. I’ll give you a little story. My sister’s friend, her mother was importing drugs to the States and got arrested in the United States. When she was arrested, everything was here in Canada, so her house and then she has about four or five kids. There was nothing put in place for these children, nothing that was even there to say, okay, your mom left this amount of money and you guys need to pay these bills.
To make a long story short, she was sentenced to five years, give or take, came back to Canada and lost everything. Her house because the kids were young and didn’t know how to manage it. She lost everything. And it’s not that, but the one child in particular was so mentally distraught that no matter how much I try to speak to her and I try to reassure her too, “Come on, Chantal, you can do anything you want. You can go back to school, get your education, do what you have to do.” But because of that separation, and she was the youngest — I think she was maybe 15 — that affected her. She’s 25 years old now and she still can’t get herself together.
If there was something in place where there was support or maybe even caregivers, because if you leave it up to the kids to go there to see them, the child won’t do that. So you need a caregiver, maybe, that a can come into the home, that can foresee what’s going on with the child and even say, okay, I’ll be able to delegate this, pay these certain bills, to make sure the child has a roof over their head or food in the fridge, things like that.
Maybe even programs where you can bring the child to see the parent. Maybe not that the parent is behind bars, where it can be a touch visit. It doesn’t have to be with the glass. That’s a huge effect. I just pray to God my son doesn’t repeat my cycle. Dear God, please.
The Chair: I have one quick question and that’s just a point of trying to clarify something.
In your testimony, Ms. Charles, you talked earlier about a program, when you were a young offender, that was specifically for African Canadians. Was that a program run by the African Canadian Legal Clinic, or do you recall?
Ms. Charles: To be quite honest, I was young, so I don’t know what program. I believe that it was out of Lawrence West Community Centre. There was a community centre that used to be inside of Flemingdon Park and there was a lady named Janet. I can’t remember her last name. If I can find her too. She was another Sophia. If I could find her — because I had to dig for Sophia, because I was trying to find her for years. I needed Sophia because there were so many things I was going through. I was like, “Where is this lady?” Finally I found her. It’s just perfect.
The Chair: We’re very grateful.
Ms. Halfkenny, I’m aware you’re still there, but I think when we transition to the other panel, we will lose you. We will be in touch so that we get your evidence as well. Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Edwards, for joining us today. In the room we have Sophia Brown Ramsay, whom you know, I think, and Natalie Charles. Natalie has just given us her testimony. We will hear from you next. We will give you an opportunity to present your story, what you want us to have, and then the senators will have questions for you. The floor is yours.
Denise Edwards, Former Federal Prisoner, as an individual: You mean as to my testimony?
The Chair: Yes. We’d like to hear your testimony first, and then we have questions.
Ms. Edwards: I sent it off to Sophia. I thought she was going to do it but I can do it for you.
My name is Denise Edwards and I am a federal parolee sentenced to 10 years for conspiring to import a controlled substance. I was granted a day parole after serving four years at the Grand Valley Institution for Women, where I had the privilege to serve out of remainder of my sentence in the community.
While incarcerated, I had both the unfortunate but eye-opening opportunity to witness systemic racism at its highest level. I label it racism at the highest because Black and indigenous women are made to be aware of their position at the bottom of Canada’s political, social and economic hierarchy.
Two organizations threw me a lifeline while I was in the institution. One is called Walls to Bridges, which, through Wilfrid Laurier University, offered for-credit university courses. Another is Audmax, an ethnocultural support organization that was open to all but primarily focused on skills building and the bolstering of Black women’s self-esteem.
I’m currently a part-time student at the University of Toronto and was recently presented with an award from the Bank of Montreal for my exceptional achievement of successfully completing the bridging program with top grades.
That’s my testimony.
The Chair: Thank you very much. Now we’ll have questions from senators, and we’ll start with Senator Cordy, the deputy chair.
Senator Cordy: Thank you very much. It’s always nice to hear from somebody who has been through it and totally understands it instead of just reading about it in a book. We really appreciate what you’re saying.
You said that the lifeline was Walls to Bridges and Audmax. First of all, if you could explain Walls to Bridges — and we heard about it last week when we were in Kitchener — how was that helpful for you? Regarding Audmax, how did they actually create the turning point? How did you tell yourself I’ve got to do something? I’ve got to change? How did that all come about?
Ms. Edwards: Walls to Bridges uses the opportunity to further our education. Like I said, they are for credit, so you get the university credit for it. It was the pedagogy, the circle pedagogy, and it’s very interactive.
It’s not traditional whereas you have the desks, because I grew up in a traditional classroom setting. Back in the 1970s, when I had my experience in the public school system, they would put people who looked like me usually in the back of the class. Even if you were bright, you sat at the back of the class. Even if you had your hand up, the teacher didn’t give a crap. The teacher would usually answer somebody else’s question or their query.
This circle pedagogy is moulded off the indigenous way of life and learning. It’s reteaching and relearning where you’re not only learning but you’re also teaching. There is no hierarchy. Everyone is just one, and everyone has a chance for their voice to be heard. That was Walls to Bridges. I can go more into detail with it after.
I want to go into Audmax now. Ms. Maxine Telford came into the institution and I wouldn’t say just for minority women like me, but it was open to everyone. We were more targeted, though, because our needs are different. She came in through our ethnocultural program and found out that our queries, our wants and our needs were not being met. I don’t know if I can say ignored, but, for instance, our hair was falling out because we didn’t have proper hair care.
In programming, sometimes we would suck our teeth. They would see that as being disrespectful. We called certain women miss because that’s how we grew up. If we called certain facilitators or officers miss, other ones would see it as a dis. But it wasn’t a dis. Sometimes some people were more humanistic towards us, so we gave them extra respect. We would not be disrespectful, but some people saw it as disrespectful because we didn’t want to share something with them. However, because our experiences are totally different, our world is different and they didn’t want to hear about our world, we had no supports, in other words.
Concerning the parole officers, 99 per cent are White. The facilitators and officers are the same thing.
If we have a problem, it’s hard to go to a person who doesn’t understand that problem, because they’re going to give you some sort of explanation that they took from out of a book; some sort of a remedy that’s not going to work for you. We learnt that, so we became our own sisters. We became a community, but we were a community within. Audmax provided a community without.
Senator Cordy: Last week when we were in Kitchener, we did hear about the proper hair products and the lack of understanding about how important this was to the prisoners who were there. Thank you for bringing that up again.
You talked about racism within the prison system and about the lack of people from whom you could seek help who were Black. They were mainly White. What within you got you to say, “I want out of here. I want to do better. I want an education?” Was it somebody who helped you? Was it a mentor along the way or was it just a personal drive?
Ms. Edwards: It was many people. Mind you, I have to let you know that a lot of them were White. A lot of the most beautiful, understanding people that I met along this journey are White people, but the majority of them were not.
I have a saying. It’s not unique to me, but I just take it a little bit further. You walk a mile in my shoes, okay, fine. How about living a year in my skin? The world would look at you differently, and you would look at the world differently. That’s what they don’t understand. I don’t like when people play the race card. I really don’t, because sometimes I think it can be used when it’s not warranted. But there are times when it’s justified. It’s easy for people to say that’s the race card. I don’t want to hear it, blah, blah, blah. Sometimes people don’t want to deal with it when they know it’s true and it’s the easiest thing to say, “Just shut up.” And they will shut us up because of that.
Senator Pate: Thank you very much for your work, Ms. Edwards, and congratulations on all of your successes. That is, the successes of so many of you who have come through the Walls to Bridges program. It is a testament to the value of that program and the fact that Grand Valley Institution is the only prison for women and for men, for that matter, that has that program.
One of the things I would like to ask you is whether you would recommend — and I think I know the answer — an expansion of the Walls to Bridges program throughout the country so that other women and men who are in federal penitentiaries would have access to the same kind of university education?
And just as a backdrop, it hasn’t been since 1992 that university education was provided in the federal system. It was cut out at that time. Usually, as we heard about Grand Valley, Joliette and other prisons, they have to pay for their own courses. This initiative, commenced by Dr. Shoshana Pollack, is still the only one in the country and I think Ms. Edwards’ success is an incredible testament to that program, as well as her own personal skills and qualities. I can hardly wait to see where you’re going to go in the next few years, Ms. Edwards.
The Chair: Before you answer, Ms. Edwards, I have a supplementary to that question from Senator Pate. Are the credits that you’ve done at Walls to Bridges accepted by the University of Toronto in the program you’re doing now? Could talk about that bridging, too, please?
Ms. Edwards: First to the credits, no. The University of Toronto has their own standard so I have to take the bridging program.
My mother is elderly, and we do live downtown Toronto, and I wanted to be closer to home. If I wanted to utilize those credits from Wilfrid Laurier, I would have had to have done it at Wilfrid Laurier. I probably could have done it at Ryerson, but Dr. Simone Davis suggested I take the bridging program and segue into U of T and that’s what I did.
I would recommend it to anyone. Sometimes I will tell people because I’m very vocal about where I am because I would like to tell my story rather than somebody tell my story for me. So I let them know where I was, where I am and where I want to go. Things change, but I know what I don’t want.
When I tell some people, they say, “Well, I find it horrible that prisoners can get educated.” But what they don’t understand is the chances of recidivism are so low that sometimes you can say it’s almost none because it builds your self-esteem. It gives you direction. I’m not going to say we lacked morals, but sometimes the odds were so stacked against us that we chose to do the things that are unlawful.
I just had an appointment with my parole officer. I see her once per month. I took the certificate to show her, which I have in my bag. I was quite happy. I got this award. She showed no emotion. The woman said to me, “You seem to be a very caring person. Have you ever considered PSW?”
When I let her know that she has a problem with a lot of people coming into this country, she referred to getting on welfare and getting ODSP, and I am on ODSP. I said to her that a lot of these foreigners who are coming in are more educated than her. It’s just a different culture and sometimes they’re coming from very traumatic experiences. They were vetted before they came here. The government is not going to give them ODSP just because they want to give the money away. There is that prejudice also.
The Chair: Could you clarify what ODSP is for people who may not know?
Ms. Edwards: Ontario Disability Support Program.
I went into GVI pretty much healthy. I came out with Graves’ disease. I was going to the doctor many times and they set me up finally. You come out usually with no ID. So think about getting IDs with no ID. It’s the hardest thing, but we managed because you’re coming out of there with a sense of strength because you have to do it. You have to take everything you have now because you’re fighting for yourself now.
I kept going back to the clinic, and then they finally sent me to a specialist at Sunnybrook. I saw the doctor twice. He was very professional. He never really made eye contact with me. He would just tell me my blood counts. He looked at me one day. He put his pen down. He said, “Why did you let it get to this point?” I asked the doctor what he was talking about. He said, “Why would you suffer yourself? You have Graves’ Disease. This is a progression. You just don’t get Graves’ Disease overnight.”
I had an extreme form of hyperthyroidism. It happened at GVI. I would tell them I’m not well. I don’t feel myself. They would think it’s all psychological, it’s because you’re here. I told them no, I feel it in my body. My mother survives on four hours of sleep. My father survives on four hours of sleep. I grew up with my mother working three jobs. My father is a professional musician, educated at McGill and Berkeley. I’m telling you, I know my family. We’re hyperactive, so for me to be feeling this way isn’t right, and they would brush me off. Then they started making me think that there was nothing wrong with me.
The doctor suggested a special program. I went to the program and completed it. They found me fit for ODSP. That’s how I got ODSP. So when the parole officer questioned the integrity of a medical professional, I burst into tears, and she told me, “That’s all on you.” I asked her to have a heart; this is degrading for me.
I am 52 years old and I got two welfare cheques in my life and that’s because I transitioned from the halfway house to my mother’s home. The first cheque I got $180. The second cheque I got $220. I bought a metro pass and some food. I wanted off of that thing. I didn’t even expect to be on ODSP, but I realized that I was ill.
Again, for someone in the penal system to not listen to me and just blow off what I had to say, I found that highly disrespectful and me knowing that I’m at the bottom of the rung, I just chose not to argue with this woman because it’s a never-ending story and I couldn’t convince her. In fact, I’m still on paperwork. Just like at GVI, your paperwork follows you. I’m so mindful of the things that I have to say to this woman. I have to be very careful. She questioned Walls to Bridges earlier this morning when I went in there to tell her. I didn’t even tell her about this meeting because that would have opened up a can of worms. She’s supposed to be my support. I’m supposed to be able to have a rapport with this woman, yet I don’t feel comfortable doing it.
Senator Hartling: Thank you, Ms. Edwards, and congratulations. Despite all the things you’re going through, you’re pushing ahead but the whole question of racism, it sounds like that’s a big problem. In the case of the worker that you’re talking about, was it a question of racism or a question of the way people are treated inside the prisons?
Ms. Edwards: Both. I think they all need courses. They all need programs. They need to be re-educated. Skills need to be relearned.
Senator Hartling: And if you were the teacher, what would you teach them?
Ms. Edwards: Since Canada is supposed to be multicultural and inclusive, I would suggest that they need to understand, especially some of the older heads. They’re not understanding what Canada is supposed to be. They’re not getting it.
Black and indigenous populations are minorities in the scope of the population, yet we’re terribly overrepresented in the prison system, and there are reasons for that. We don’t get up and want to commit crime. I’m not speaking for the indigenous community right now, I’m speaking for the Black community. There are problems.
This is just a personal example: My mother, barely a high school education. My mother can always get a job, always, but look at the type of jobs she would get? My father, sure, he had more than that, but he was always the last to be hired and the first to be fired. That broke my family up. My father just left the country because he said, “You can’t get a break.”
I’m the only one in my family with a criminal history. You think I could go and give my mother anything that I stole from the street or have a dollar that I couldn’t account for in her house or have any type of drug or anything? She’d put me out. They don’t stand for it. Yet, at the same time, I wanted what my other peers wanted, had. My best girlfriends were Yuna Hermatsu, Rosa Novakowski, Kira-Lynn Grescoviak. We all went the same day to get jobs. We were in high school. We all went. They all got a job. I did not.
Rosa would go in late. Yuna would not even show up, and yet their jobs were still secured. I wouldn’t even get a chance in the door. I’m not saying this happens all the time, to everyone, but this is what a large portion of us goes through.
Senator Hartling: So it’s not just within the penal system. You’re just talking about in society in general. It doesn’t sound like we’ve moved very far, and we’re celebrating Black History Month. We need to think about how we can move things forward in 2018.
Ms. Edwards: Even programs, tv shows. “Kim’s Convenience.” I like that. It’s a beautiful show and everything else, but, if you look at the larger context of how influential my community is in the large scope, yet we don’t even have — The girl that wrote the show, “’Da Kink in my Hair,” I spoke with her on the telephone once. She took off; she went across the border. She said it’s too hard.
The film board, they don’t want to hear our stories. We have some stories. There are so many unsung heroes in the grave right here, people who have contributed all their lives, and they don’t even bet a pat on their shoulder. If they live to be 80 years old, they might get a letter from Kathleen Wynne or Trudeau saying, “Congratulations on this milestone.” That’s about it. They’re not recognized. For these young boys, sometimes, they don’t have a role model. So you can see where they’re going to go wrong. Their fathers were beaten up on too. So they take off, and their mothers have it hard. You’re being a mother and a father to a lot of these people. The young girls, sometimes I want to ask them. “Why are you getting pregnant? Why did you do that?” “I want something to love, and I want something to love me back.” Because society here doesn’t love you.
I’m 52 years old. I don’t even remember when I came here. I have no recollection of Trinidad. When I came here, my brother and I were on the same passport. I don’t know even know anything about where I came from. I went back to visit. I have family there, and they did not consider me family. They considered me a stranger. When I came back into the land that groomed me —
The Chair: Oh, no. We are having technical difficulties. Our technician will try to reconnect.
In the meantime, we’ll move forward with the second round with Ms. Charles. So you’re back on, Ms. Charles, for now.
Senator Cordy: You talked about needing a break, when you come out and are rehabilitated and want to move on with your life. It’s been 15 years, and you’ve had no problems with the law, but you have a family. You’re getting educated; you want to get a career.
What can we recommend as a committee to give you and people like you a break, people who really want to better themselves?
Ms. Charles: That’s actually a question I would have for you. That’s actually the question for you because it would be: What could you guys offer to somebody like me, right?
I understand the powers that some people have, but the thing is: How far are they willing to use them, or how far are you willing to go to extend those powers? Again, there are a lot of people that are willing to help, but then you get stopped at a certain point of helping.
For me, it’s like: What are you able to do for us or even for me? Like what? That’s the question that I would have for you, to be honest.
Senator Cordy: How could we have a Sophia in every community?
Ms. Charles: It’s to meet more people that are like her, to maybe support her organization so that she can expand, so that it would be like a franchise type of a thing. Do you know what I mean? Where she can expand and put in people that she genuinely knows are there for the community, are there for people. If she has people that she recommends, pray to God that they are as genuine as she is and able to help. That’s the only thing I could think of, really.
Senator Pate: You talked about the pardon process, and I want to, if you’re comfortable, talk a bit about what the actual expense of that ended up being because many people don’t realize now that, one, we actually don’t have pardons any more — it’s record suspensions — and that the wait time has doubled from what it used to be when it was a pardon process and that the cost has quintupled. Certainly, one of the things that I think we should be putting in place, like other countries have, is a process whereby, once a certain amount of time has expired, if the person’s name pops up and they have not come to the attention of police, haven’t come up on CPIC or anything, they should be able to say they no longer have a criminal record.
A lot of people think it’s just the $631. Just — $631 is more than annual disposable income of most people who have records . You then have to apply for fingerprints and all of that. In the end, do you know how much it cost you in financial terms and also time to do your application?
Ms. Charles: Firstly, it changed within the last maybe two or three years, I believe. It changed. It was about $150 a few years back, and there was no time limit on when they can get back to you. So that’s where you can apply, and you’re waiting five, six years to hear something back because they’ve been backed up with records from how many years prior, records prior. Now, I think it’s, as you said, $631. That’s just to apply. There are numerous things that are involved. You have to do your fingerprints first. Your fingerprints are to be done at your police station, but they get sent off to the RCMP. That’s a fee. You have to get a record check. There are two record checks that they want. It’s a local police record check, but then there’s also a record check that is specified for the record suspension. That’s another, like, $80 just for getting the record suspension, your criminal record for that.
After you do that — I think this is the part that was a little more intense — you have to know every place that you got in trouble. Every region that you got in trouble, you have to go to that region and apply for the transcripts. So, if you got in trouble in Peel, Toronto or Halton, you have to go to all of those regions, apply for transcripts where you have to put a $50 deposit down. It can either be more or less, and you have to pay for those transcripts. Those transcripts take how many months to get back to you.
For you to start your process, I would say to even start it a year in advance or six months in advance, prior to you even being eligible for your date, because it takes a month and a half or so for the fingerprints and the mugshots to get back from the RCMP and then another couple of months for them to even get your transcripts. Yes, you’re just running around.
They have this thing called Pardons Canada, but, believe it or not, it’s just a body. They’re not a face, if you know what I mean. You still have to do all the work on your own. You’re just paying them for their name, if you know what I mean. You’re not really getting any form of help from Pardons Canada. You have to do all the legwork on your own.
Senator Pate: Pardons Canada is an organization that has been set up that a lot of people think is actually the pardon people, and people end up paying them as well and can pay over $1,000.
Ms. Charles: And they’re also misleading. They’re very misleading. So not only does the name mislead you because it’s Pardons Canada — as it was called before, pardons — so you’re assuming it’s a part of that. If you google anything to do with pardons, they are the first people to come up.
Second, there are over 500 and something dollars just for them to do the application, for them to help you with the application, and then they make it look like “We can get it done faster for you.” But you can’t.
So I actually was calling about my fingerprints at the RCMP, trying to inquire what was taking so long. They had my fingerprints for three months. At that point I was like, “Well, can I speak to the manager, please? Because I would like to know. I put my stuff in three months ago, and nothing is back yet.” At that point I was going to do the Pardons Canada, and the lady there said to me, “No. You know what? It’s better if you do it on your own. You will save yourself this amount of money.”
I did mine on my own. Even with my career, that’s a side little job that I would do to help people with their pardon.
Senator Pate: In terms of the importance of a pardon, I don’t know if it applied to you — and if it’s too personal, I don’t want you to feel you have to discuss — but for many moms, they cannot volunteer with their kids’ teams, their schools, if they don’t have the process.
Ms. Charles: You cannot.
Senator Pate: So they’re banned for basically five or ten years from doing anything to do with their children. They can’t go on school trips. So that’s something a lot of people don’t realize.
The other is that sometimes for certain employment — for instance, social work, and many of the professions, any kind of assisting people, so the personal support worker, for instance — you can’t even enrol in the program if you don’t already have a pardon or a record suspension. Actually, most of the schools haven’t caught up with record suspension. They require a pardon. So even with a record suspension, you can’t apply. Have you had experience with any of those situations?
Ms. Charles: Yes. Going back to the school trips, as I said, my daughter is 21. I haven’t gone on one trip with the actual school. Every trip I go on, that I do any volunteer, I drive myself. So you’re allowed to attend the trip, but you have to drive yourself. If you want to attend with the students, like with your child on the bus, you have to provide your criminal record check. You have to do it voluntarily, just say, “I don’t have a record.” That’s how I was able to go on trips with my daughter.
My daughter also got into rugby, and my son does track and field. My daughter, with her rugby, only travelled within Ontario, so I was able to go with her.
My son was going out now to the United States. My son was 7, and he’s extremely fast. I haven’t been able to send him. I don’t send him because I can’t go across the border because of my record; I’m inadmissible. So that has been extremely, extremely hard with that.
In terms of employment, that’s a nightmare. That’s a nightmare all on its own, because every employment application asks if you’re bondable. Every employment application asks if you’re been convicted of a criminal offence. Are you going to lie? To be honest with you, I have. That’s half the jobs that I get. Because if I don’t lie on the application, I’m not going to get the job, so I lie.
So I get into those employment — they don’t do a police record check, thank God. But the jobs that I want now, in-detail record check. So I’m stagnant. I came to a halt now and I’m back at the road: Left or right, which way do I go? Because I’m not going to allow my record anymore to stop me, to hamper me, to define who I am. It’s not me and I’m not that person anymore. So I’m going to apply for these jobs and I’m going to be truthful and I’m going to let them know that I have a record. However, I consider myself bondable.
Now, with what you were saying in terms of in other countries, when they have programs that if you haven’t been in trouble with the law or CPIC and you haven’t been in trouble, you should be deemed rehabilitated. I absolutely agree with you on that, 110 per cent. Because let’s suppose — as she’s on ODSP, how can she afford, besides taking money out of a few cheques, let’s say, to pay the $631? You get the $631, but prior to that you have all these other things you need to pay before paying that $631.
Senator Pate: And in many provinces and territories, that may be more than you get for even your rent, which reminds me: Have you ever been asked for a criminal record check to rent an apartment? I just went with my son last year to rent an apartment and he was asked about criminal record check, and I ended up questioning how they could ask that.
Ms. Charles: You’re actually allowed to ask for any of those things, but I’ve never been asked for that.
Senator Pate: In Ontario?
Ms. Charles: Yeah. I’ve never been asked for that, to be quite honest. I don’t rent; I own, so I haven’t had to face that, thank God.
But in the employment aspect, I’ve been faced with that challenge. Going on trips with my kids, I’ve been faced with that challenge, being embarrassed to even tell people.
I’ve been battling with getting lack of sleep the last few weeks because of my placement and just saying, “Should I come out and tell my placement adviser what’s going on?” Again, back to what she was saying about support and about feeling comfortable and about feeling like if I tell her this, is she going to look at me like this or is she going to get me those jobs or help me to apply for them?
I’m stuck. I’m literally stuck and I don’t know what to do, to be honest with you. I’m finished in April. I have placement in May. I don’t hear back from the Parole Board — they have until August, at the latest. All I’m doing, again, is I turn religious and I’m praying to God something pulls through for me to get a placement and for my pardon to be accepted and for me to be rehabilitated back into society.
The Chair: You’ve spoken it into the universe and you are sitting beside the most incredible mentor and support person you could ever have.
Ms. Charles: Definitely.
The Chair: That’s our list for questions.
Ms. Edwards, we’re pleased that they were able to get you back. Are there any final comments you want to make to us? I think you may have been in the middle of talking when the system went down.
Ms. Edwards: There are just so many things that I’d like to say, but I would like to piggyback off of what Natalie said about the jobs.
I registered a company. I swore to God I would not come here and clean for people, but I did. So I registered a cleaning company and I got a couple of jobs. I decided to be totally honest with them. As soon as I met them, I said, “Listen, I don’t know if you’re going to keep me on, but this is what — I was charged with so-and-so.”
I was charged with importing. Now, I don’t care what you have in your house. I don’t want what you have in your house — your jewellery, credit cards. That’s not my thing. The importing was my thing. It’s no longer my thing.
So I’m doing this cleaning job and the guy says, “Okay, can you come 11 until 2?” Happily, I did that. Now, what I knew to do was — I said to myself: After four sessions, that means I’m a regular and I will start paying my taxes. Because he said he’s paying me cash. First couple of times, cash, no problem, but I want to pay my taxes and see if I can build up on this so that maybe, when some of these women come out, when they’re finished, we can build this thing up, because it’s hard for us to get jobs.
So I’m doing it, and then I found out he was shortchanging me. So I went back again and again, and he wouldn’t give me the proper amount of money. I got bold in a nice way. I said to him, “You know what? Maybe you misunderstood me. We made an agreement for such-and-such a payment.” You know what he said? “Well, you know what? I’ll give you your payment after you work today.”
I worked like 11 until 6 that evening. When I was leaving, he said, “I have nothing to give to you.” I said, “Why are you doing this?” He said, “Do you want me to call your parole officer?” I said, “Do you want me to call Revenue Canada?” He thought he had something on me, but I could have just flipped it back on him too. That’s the position we are in sometimes. You’re honest and look what happens. It’s like you can’t get a break.
I was totally honest with him. He had cameras all over the place. He would turn them on when I got there and leave me alone, let me do my thing. But at the end of the day, he had in the back of his head, “I can use this federal inmate, this parolee, because I have her by the short and curly.”
I just wanted to add to what Natalie said. You’re caught between a rock and a hard place. I even had the parole officer say, “You don’t necessarily have to tell them that you have a criminal record.” I said, “So are you saying that I must lie?”
But apart from that, the government offers programs to 17 or 18-year-olds to 29-year-olds. That’s it. That’s who they cater for. If you’re beyond that, you’re in trouble, especially if you’re beyond that and maybe a woman that looks like me. We suffer ageism, sexism, and all the other “isms” and schisms that come along with that. That, again, will break down your self-esteem.
I know I speak a little bit loud. That’s just me. That’s another thing I have to mention back at GVI. Women of colour, our tone is usually — it’s not the quiet type of voices we have. And we’re animated, so we use our hands.
In programs, they saw that as being disrespectful. It’s not disrespectful. If I use a telephone and call Ottawa, for example, or a call centre, the tone of the person that picks up the telephone, I can tell the type of person. Not in personality, but I can tell the features of a person, that it’s a Black woman, because she doesn’t really have a voice like this. So because of that, we get knocked over all over the place. I’m telling you: Live a year in our skin and you will see.
I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but I don’t remember the senator, the Black lady right there that’s speaking on the panel. I am pretty sure — forgive me if I’m wrong — but you have to be double smart, double tenacious and extremely durable to get to where you are. There’s no ordinary woman that looks like you that’s going to be where you are, miss. I give everybody on the panel, all the senators, all the women there, the highest due respect because I know it was not an easy journey for you. But to be there, coming from the “other,” you had to go through some extra hoops. You might not want to tell your peers there, but you had to go through some extra hoops, and you know it too.
The Chair: What can I say to that, other than to say I have absolutely walked a mile, lived a year in your life, lived a year in your skin, lived my whole life struggling with the very issues that you’ve identified. So absolutely, yes.
My name is Wanda Thomas Bernard, from Nova Scotia.
Ms. Edwards: I want to add one more thing. Do I believe in the abolishment of prisons? Absolutely no. I deserved to be where I was. Criminal, yes. I do believe I was supposed to be removed from society, but maybe for not the amount of time that I got. That’s another issue.
I also believe that under our Charter of Rights, forget about the religious part of it, because all the programs are Christian based. I saw that a lot of the people who did the most praying were usually the poorest people. We’re so thankful for anything that we’ll be happy to thank Jesus for everything, which is good. But I see a lot of people who have never surrendered to the Almighty, and they’re up there.
What I’m saying is I think sometimes our rights are violated. Do I believe that I needed to be there? Once again, yes. I take responsibility for what I did. But sometimes — and this is a systemic thing also — you have to look at the person who is sentencing you. Do they take into consideration certain issues? No, they don’t, because it’s impossible for them. Their life experiences, they come from Mars, and we come from Venus. So, of course, we’re going to get the book thrown at us. What do we have to do? We have to accept it, ride it out, and depend on our faith and our supports.
Our supports sometimes, it’s like a revolving door, because our supports, which is sometimes our kids, we are their supports and they’re our supports. What happens is they don’t have us there, so they fall into the bucket too. They have nowhere to go.
The Chair: On behalf of the committee, I want to sincerely thank you, Ms. Edwards and Ms. Charles, for your testimony today. It was exceptional to hear from both of you. This is Black History Month and the theme is Black Canadian Women: Stories of Strength, Courage and Vision. The two of you have absolutely shown us such incredible strength and courage today. It takes courage to tell your story. I know that every time you tell your story, you’re reliving some of the trauma that you’ve experienced. I also know that the experience of racism, coupled with that intersection of sexism, and we’ve heard about ageism as well, and disability, that those are everyday realities, and the experiences of those can put you into difficult waters to navigate.
You are doing incredibly well. I wish that everyone had a mentor like the mentor that you have.
Ms. Edwards, I don’t know if you can see me, but if you can, you can see that I speak with my hands as well.
Thank you both very much for your testimony. You’ve helped us to bring awareness to the realities that Black prisoners face, the barriers that you have to overcome, not just while incarcerated but actually trying to transition back into the community, back into society.
I don’t think this is the last time I will see either of you. Ms. Edwards, I hope to meet you in person some day.
Ms. Edwards: Absolutely. Thank you all so very much.
The Chair: Thank you for agreeing to do this.
Ms. Edwards: You’re very welcome. Thank you for listening to my truth.
The Chair: Thank you for sharing your truth.
Senators, before we adjourn, we have a budget before you for the next fiscal year. As you know, we are hoping to travel the week of April 23 to Edmonton and Vancouver.
I have a proposal that I’ll put forward. Is it agreed that the special study budget application for public hearings and fact-finding in Edmonton, Vancouver and Abbotsford on the human rights of prisoners in the federal correction system for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2019, be approved?
Senator Andreychuk: I believe you put in six senators. Perhaps this is for other committees that I’m asking this question. We were always told to put in full committees.
Mark Palmer, Clerk of the Committee: That has changed recently.
Senator Andreychuk: What is the rule?
Mr. Palmer: There’s no official ruling. It’s just to be realistic.
Senator Andreychuk: Okay. So this is the steering committee’s realistic —
Senator Cordy: It’s not meant to exclude. Having served on that committee, as you well know, if the number were to change from six to seven or eight, you would just go back and they will give you the money.
Senator Martin: It doesn’t have to be done on the chamber floor?
Senator Cordy: It might come back to the chamber floor. I’m not sure. I know in the past that the reason we got into saying that everybody should be down was because some committees were saying, “We only want four to go.” Well, who chooses?
This way it is six. There were four who went to Toronto. I don’t know how many are going to Nova Scotia.
Senator Andreychuk: It’s very difficult.
Senator Cordy: It is.
Senator Andreychuk: The point I used to make, when we had to put all of them in, was that often that’s what the press picked up, our global budget, but they never looked at what we actually spent, which was the realistic amount. I have no problem with that, providing going back doesn’t mean that you have to do something heroic to put the members back on. Thank you for that.
The Chair: Is it agreed that we approve the budget or are there any other questions? So it’s agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Okay. Is it also agreed that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to approve the final version of the budget, and for the chair to submit to the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed. Thank you all very much.
(The committee adjourned.)