THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Tuesday, October 22, 2024
The Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry met with videoconference this day at 6:30 p.m. [ET] to examine and report on the growing issue of wildfires in Canada and the consequential effects that wildfires have on forestry and agriculture industries, as well as rural and Indigenous communities, throughout the country.
Senator Paula Simons (Deputy Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Deputy Chair: Good evening, everyone. Before we begin, I would like to ask all senators and other in-person participants to consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents.
Please take note of the following preventative measures in place to protect the health and safety of all participants, including our hard-working interpreters. If possible, ensure that you are seated in a manner that increases the distance between microphones. Only use an approved black earpiece; the old grey earpieces must no longer be used. Keep your earpiece away from all microphones at all times. When you are not using your earpiece, place it face down on the sticker placed on the table for this purpose. Thank you all for your cooperation.
I would like to begin by welcoming members of the committee, our witnesses, as well as those watching this meeting on the web.
[Translation]
Welcome, everyone, and welcome those of you watching us on sencanada.ca.
[English]
My name is Paula Simons, senator from Alberta. I come from Treaty 6 territory, and I am the deputy chair of this committee. I would like to start by asking my Senate colleagues to introduce themselves.
Senator Muggli: Tracy Muggli, Saskatchewan.
Senator McNair: John McNair, New Brunswick.
[Translation]
Senator Dalphond: Pierre J. Dalphond, division of De Lorimier, Quebec.
[English]
Senator Klyne: Welcome. Marty Klyne, Saskatchewan, Treaty 4 territory.
Senator Sorensen: Karen Sorensen, Alberta, Treaty 7 territory.
[Translation]
Senator Petitclerc: Chantal Petitclerc from Quebec.
[English]
Senator McBean: Marnie McBean, Ontario.
Senator Marshall: Elizabeth Marshall, Newfoundland and Labrador.
Senator Richards: David Richards, New Brunswick.
The Deputy Chair: Before I introduce our witnesses, I would also like to acknowledge that we have a special guest with us in the room today, Mayor Richard Ireland from the town of Jasper, Alberta, in Jasper National Park. He was here today visiting with Senator Sorensen, and I’m very glad to welcome Mayor Ireland to the room. He will, I believe, be back before us as a witness but in a disembodied form.
Today we welcome, from Environment and Climate Change Canada, or ECCC, Doris Fortin, Director General, Policy, Planning and Partnerships Directorate, Meteorological Service of Canada; and Nathan Gillet, Research Scientist, Canadian Centre for Climate Modelling and Analysis, Science and Technology Branch, who is joining us by videoconference.
From Health Canada, we have with us Matt Jones, Assistant Deputy Minister, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch.
From Parks Canada, we welcome Andrew Campbell, Senior Vice-President, Operations; and Darlene Upton, Vice-President, Protected Areas Establishment and Conservation.
Welcome, and thank you all for being with us. You will have five minutes for each of your presentations. I will signal that your time is running out by raising one hand when you have one minute left, and I will raise two hands when you have no minutes left.
Doris Fortin, Director General, Policy, Planning and Partnerships Directorate, Meteorological Service of Canada, Environment and Climate Change Canada: Thank you, chair and other members of the committee. It is an honour for me and my colleague to be here today to address you as part of your study examining the growing issues of wildfires in Canada and their severe consequences.
[Translation]
Over the past two years, all Canadians have experienced the devastating impact of forest fires, either directly because they were in the path of a fire, or indirectly by being exposed to smoke from those fires.
The meteorological conditions that are conducive to forest fires are exacerbated by climate change.
[English]
The year 2023 had the most severe wildfire season Canada has experienced to date. An estimated 15 million hectares of land burned. For certain periods — I think we all know this — smoke from these fires blanketed much of the country and most of the northern and northeastern United States and actually reached Europe. This exceeded air quality health standards across the country and beyond. Your current study is important in helping to better prepare Canadian authorities, industry and citizens to face more frequent wildfires in the future.
[Translation]
Unfortunately, 2024 was no easier for Canadians. Right now, some 300 forest fires are still active, and an estimated 5.3 million hectares have burned, which has had a significant impact on many communities.
The town of Jasper, Alberta, a precious part of Canada’s heritage, was devastated by a forest fire that damaged or destroyed almost 30% of its buildings. Early estimates suggest that insured losses exceed $882 million.
[English]
Prior to and during these recent wildfire seasons, Environment and Climate Change Canada generated predictions, seasonal outlooks and weather conditions and provided key expertise, modelling and forecasting to support preparedness and responses to these wildfires as well as other severe weather conditions. ECCC provides weather prediction services to the Government Operations Centre at Public Safety and other partners, including provincial and territorial counterparts and emergency management organizations, through regular engagement by our meteorologists.
[Translation]
These experts regularly provide information to the media and the public, and they frequently interact with public health and emergency management organizations to provide temperature, precipitation, wind, air quality and smoke dispersion predictions and identify the potential impact of these factors to support real‑time decision-making.
[English]
Our experts also engaged during the emergency response, like in 2023, when ECCC’s meteorological services delivered critical information that supported the decision to evacuate several towns in the country. For example, in Yellowknife, the provision of timely and accurate weather forecasts, along with high‑resolution smoke dispersion modelling, was used to clearly identify a very narrow but safe evacuation window that was paramount in evacuating the town safely. Later, the same skills were used by meteorologists to provide information that led to a safe return to the evacuated towns.
The increasing frequency of extreme weather events can be attributed to climate change. This underscores the vital role that Environment and Climate Change Canada plays in predicting these events and therefore managing the knock-on effects of these phenomena on communities and Canadians, from heat to drought to wildfire conditions, for example.
[Translation]
Several other federal departments leverage Environment and Climate Change Canada’s role. These include Natural Resources Canada and Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, which take the output from our models and use them in the Fire Weather Index, the FWI, and the Canadian Drought Monitor, respectively.
[English]
Wildfire response also draws heavily on our experts to model and predict conditions for the protection of first responders on the ground, and for the generation of air quality and health forecasts to help Canadians’ health in the country and beyond. ECCC, in coordination with other partners, will continue to provide this vital information during wildfires and other severe weather events while also continuing to provide decision and response support to protect front line responders. We have also recently done important work on attribution science to determine how much more frequently we can expect these kinds of events and their linkages to climate change.
We wish to commend the dedicated efforts of the committee on their work to study the growing reach and effects of Canada’s wildfires.
[Translation]
My colleague and I would be happy to answer your questions this evening.
Matt Jones, Assistant Deputy Minister, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Health Canada: Madam Chair and honourable senators, thank you for inviting me to discuss the impact of forest fires on Canadians’ health. I’m happy to be here with you today on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe nation.
[English]
I am the Assistant Deputy Minister of the Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch at Health Canada. We have many roles there and have teams focused on many different files where the environment impacts human health, including a dedicated air quality team that is very busy with forest fires in particular.
The global climate continues to change, and we are experiencing these effects currently. Increases in temperatures have long been expected to increase the frequency, duration and intensity of wildfires.
Along with this increase in wildfire activity, there is a corresponding increase in risks to human health. We saw this, obviously, last year with the unprecedented 2023 wildfire season, when wildfire smoke impacted areas of the country that are not traditionally nor historically affected. This past summer’s wildfire season, while not as severe in the east of Canada, still had multiple community evacuations and widespread smoke impacts, particularly in Central and Western Canada, not to mention the devastating impacts on Jasper National Park and the townsite.
Wildfires can have a range of impacts on human health, everything from the direct threat of fire itself to the effect of inhaling wildfire smoke which, in particular, can be quite significant, along with the impacts on mental health from wildfires and the smoke and evacuations where they happen.
The harmful pollutants in wildfire smoke can travel thousands of kilometres and, in addition to short-term health effects, may also have long-term health effects. Wildfire smoke can cause a range of symptoms and mild effects, such as headache and cough, but the fine particulates found in wildfire smoke can get deep into our lungs. This can lead to serious impacts, including asthma attacks. There are strong linkages with a range of cardiovascular impairments, including heart attacks, stroke and respiratory ailments. In addition, there are segments of the population, of course, who are more severely affected by wildfire smoke, including children, seniors, those who spend more time outside and those with pre-existing respiratory conditions, of which there are many.
Health Canada and the Public Health Agency of Canada are working with many other federal departments, as well as provincial, territorial, municipal and public health partners, to reduce the risks to people in Canada from wildfires and wildfire smoke in particular. This includes providing information, advice and guidance to the public through many channels, including online resources and the Air Quality Health Index. If you have looked at air quality information on a weather app on your phone, you’ve accessed the Air Quality Health Index, which is a joint project with our colleagues from Environment Canada.
The Air Quality Health Index provides advice for both the general public and those more at risk on how to minimize smoke exposure and how to manage their behaviour in times of elevated air pollution.
In addition, the Health Portfolio plays a role in helping jurisdictions establish and manage cleaner air spaces through a number of means, including provision of technical advice and expertise and guidance.
The Health Portfolio supports provincial, territorial and federal partners in responding to wildfires. The Public Health Agency of Canada provides 24-7 public health support to provinces and territories in emergencies and responds to any requests from them. In addition, the agency’s National Emergency Strategic Stockpile, or NESS, contains supplies that provinces and territories can access upon request in emergencies, like extreme weather events. Supplies, in the wildfire context, have been made available through a number of channels to non‑governmental organizations and directly to our provincial counterparts.
In summary, the Health Portfolio works to support the Government of Canada’s response to wildfires through a number of ways with, of course, a focus on human health and well-being. We work with our partners and expect to do so for some time to come.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Jones.
Ms. Upton?
Darlene Upton, Vice-President, Protected Areas Establishment and Conservation, Parks Canada: Thank you to the committee for the opportunity to participate in this important discussion. I am pleased to be here with my colleague Andrew Campbell. After this statement, of course, we look forward to your questions.
Parks Canada protects on behalf of Canadians over 450,000 square kilometres of land, water and ice. It’s the only federal organization that manages and responds to wildfires on the ground, with similar roles and capabilities as provincial and territorial wildfire agencies. Parks Canada has been building capacity and expertise in fire management for several decades.
Through its National Fire Management Program, Parks Canada works closely with other levels of government on measures to reduce the risk of wildfire, enhance emergency preparedness and, when needed, provide personnel and equipment to support fire response. As the committee is aware, management of land for forestry or agricultural production is a matter of provincial and territorial jurisdiction. At the same time, measures taken to mitigate risk and manage fire within Parks Canada-administered sites contribute to the protection of forest and agricultural lands near national historic sites, national parks and the Rouge National Urban Park. In the case of agricultural land, for example, this would include locations such as Grasslands National Park in Saskatchewan, Riding Mountain National Park in Manitoba and Rouge National Urban Park in Ontario.
Parks Canada contributes to the protection of forests and agricultural lands in other far more direct ways. As a member of the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre, Parks Canada collaborates with other Canadian fire management agencies to provide support to provinces and territories across the country as well as internationally when they require assistance. Additionally, Parks Canada has agreements with most provinces and territories and some municipalities to assist with quick and direct response to wildfires outside of our borders.
Parks Canada has well-trained, professional wildland fire management personnel located across the country who are committed to public safety and the stewardship of Parks Canada‑administered places. This national cadre is made up of 300 fully trained wildland fire management personnel, including wildland firefighters, support firefighters and incident management staff. In addition to human resources, Parks Canada maintains a national firefighting equipment cache in Banff National Park. This is a complete inventory of fire suppression and management equipment held in a state of readiness for rapid deployment to Parks Canada-administered places and other areas of need across the country.
We are working on a new and upgraded version of the national equipment cache, which is under way after an investment of more than $65 million in our National Fire Management Program since 2021.
In addition to the national cache, large trailers filled with firefighting equipment are staged at different sites across the country, ready to be deployed to active wildfire locations. Each national park or national historic site with wildfire risk maintains a local cache of equipment.
Aircraft are an important tool in fighting wildfires. They are involved in water-bucketing, delivering supplies to the fire line and relaying important tactical information. We have four helicopters on long-term contract during the fire season, based out of Prince Albert, Jasper and Wood Buffalo National Parks. They are deployed to other national parks as needed, and we can hire additional helicopters.
The importance of sharing these resources and interjurisdictional cooperation is beyond question. The rising frequency and intensity of wildfires is one of the most devastating impacts of climate change. We are feeling those impacts right now. The 2023 wildfire season was unprecedented for Canada and for Parks Canada. While deploying personnel and equipment to support wildfire-fighting efforts in Alberta, Quebec and the Northwest Territories in 2023, Parks Canada dealt with more than 100 fires of its own, burning through more than a million hectares.
So far in 2024, Parks Canada has seen approximately 90 wildfires and 115,000 hectares burned in national parks. This includes the wildfires in Jasper National Park, which resulted in the loss of 30% of the Municipality of Jasper and approximately 32,700 hectares of forest burned.
Additionally, Parks Canada has deployed personnel and resources to Newfoundland and Labrador, Manitoba, Alberta and the Northwest Territories, as well as the Yukon, in 2024. Recently, over Thanksgiving, we deployed firefighters to assist in the United States, in Montana.
Parks Canada will continue to work with its partners to mitigate the risk to communities, infrastructure and other important values such as forest and agricultural lands in and near the places it administers. It will honour its commitments to respond to requests for support from other jurisdictions. Thank you, chair.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you to all our witnesses and to all of your supporting witnesses.
Senator Sorensen: Thank you all for being here today. To Parks Canada, I will clump two questions together, which is sometimes more effective than asking one after the other.
Again, it’s not a surprise that Alberta’s wildfire season has been starting earlier, lasting longer and affecting larger areas in recent years, creating a significant pressure on municipalities and fire services within and outside the forest protection area. We have all been talking about the fire in Jasper. It was the largest wildfire seen in the park in over a century. If I’m correct, it was composed of four ignitions in a very short time frame in different places.
I would be remiss if I didn’t mention again that 20,000 people were evacuated in five hours, which is incredible, and the fact that 70% of the town was saved. I want to credit those who were behind that. It is hard to call it a success, but I was in Jasper last week, and it is devastating, but it is also really remarkable how much of the town is still standing.
My first question is this: With this in mind, could you expand and update us on Parks Canada’s current strategies — and some of that was within your remarks, Ms. Upton, like the FireSmart program and prescribed burns — so could you elaborate on new wildfire risk reduction projects as you work to prevent and prepare for other fires threats of this magnitude? You commented on your upgraded version of the equipment cache.
My second question is this: How does Parks Canada consider and manage for values at risk that might be adjacent to lands it administers, such as agriculture or forestry lands?
Ms. Upton: Thank you.
I’ll start by explaining the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre, or CIFFC, with which we have an operating agreement. That organization is focused on resource sharing, mutual aid and information sharing with provinces, territories and ourselves. Some of the agreements we have there are mutual aid response-sharing agreements that deal with equipment, personnel and aircraft. A large part of the preparedness is ensuring we have all those agreements in place and that coordination up to speed.
Within Parks Canada’s preparedness plans, we have the Wildland Fire Management Directive. It focuses on prevention, risk reduction, preparedness, response and prescribed fires. Any site that has the potential for wildfire requires a fire management plan and then specifically to have annual prevention and preparedness plans. That allows us to then look nationally at the resources we have and deploy things like prescribed burns.
I can turn to Mr. Campbell to talk specifically about Jasper, but we have a robust program of prescribed burns that occur in the spring and fall of every year. We plan for as many as we can, but they can only occur when conditions allow for them.
In addition, we can use mechanical tree removal in certain places as part of the FireSmart program, as well as community breaks and so one. Our plan includes a number of standard operating procedures that are put in place to ensure we are able to speak the same language. We can calculate the area burned. We have financial management practices and all these things in place.
I’ll turn to Mr. Campbell to add to that.
Andrew Campbell, Senior Vice-President, Operations, Parks Canada: I’ll add two small parts. I’ll start with Jasper and then speak more broadly. As Ms. Upton said, across the country, we look at different elements and values at risk. Those could be the Trans Mountain Expansion, or TMX, line and the ATCO hydro lines that go through the middle of the park in Jasper. There would be protections around those as well as the CN Rail lines.
If you were to take the entire downtown core of Ottawa, as far as the Rideau River, to the LeBreton Flats and up past the highway, that is the area that is thinned and removed around a place like Jasper to ensure the fire breaks are in place. Roads also act in that way. We don’t often talk about it, but there is hand-done removal as well.
Jasper was arguably the most FireSmarted place within the country. Something important for the committee to look at is that this is what happened in a place like Jasper, which had protections. As you look around the rest of the country where this is not done, certainly, there would be other places more at risk.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you, Mr. Campbell.
[Translation]
Senator Petitclerc: My question is for you, Ms. Fortin.
In your opening remarks, you talked about predicting — or attempts to predict — and a model. That’s very interesting, because we’ve been talking about interventions, restoration and prevention. Given the work and the research being done, can we look forward to an enhanced ability to predict this kind of event, to predict forest fires? Is there a way to do that? Can we look forward to better predictions? Is there collaboration with academics? Is Indigenous knowledge being used? How is this all being organized and carried out?
Ms. Fortin: Thank you very much for the question. I’ll start answering and then go to Nathan Gillet for more information because he’s with our Science and Technology Branch.
As you said, we use several very sophisticated models to predict future conditions. We use current and past conditions, we put them in the model, and the model enables us to predict future conditions. We can do this for various segments of time, such as tomorrow or next week. We can also predict seasonal and annual conditions. I’m sure that’s the segment you’re interested in, because you’d like to know about conditions and risks next season. We already have the ability to do that. We deliver seasonal predictions. This summer, we started making seasonal predictions. We could see that conditions would be dry and temperatures high this winter. We’ve already started predicting that there will probably be a greater risk of forest fires in some regions. We can do that in advance.
Of course, those discoveries and models rely heavily on Environment and Climate Change Canada’s significant research capacity and that of the national and global academic community. We are constantly improving our models and the variables that enable us to predict future conditions. We are working closely with the academic community in Canada and around the world. We belong to international organizations, such as the World Meteorological Organization and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. We leverage scientific discoveries published around the world to improve what we’re doing with prediction. I’ll ask my colleague, Nathan Gillet, to take it from here.
Nathan Gillet, Research Scientist, Canadian Centre for Climate Modelling and Analysis, Science and Technology Branch, Environment and Climate Change Canada: Thank you very much.
We use climate models to simulate the future climate. We can use those simulations to better inform decisions about climate change adaptation. As Ms. Fortin explained, we work closely with academic and scientific partners in other departments, such as Natural Resources Canada.
[English]
The Deputy Chair: Thank you.
Senator Marshall: Parks Canada, I want to continue on with Senator Sorensen’s line of questioning. Could you be more precise as to how the parks are managed with regard to fire prevention? Would there be teams assigned to each park, and would they do an annual assessment before the fire season? Hopefully, during the summer season they would be able to enact some fire prevention matters, and then in the fall go back and assess to see that they’ve done everything that they could. How precise are your procedures with regard to fire prevention?
I live in a highly wooded area, and each year somebody comes in, cuts the trees and burns some brush. It’s not controlled burns, but burned brush. Do you have something similar in Parks Canada? I’m trying to get a handle on exactly how precise your procedures are.
Ms. Upton: A park would have a prevention plan. It would be quite precise. One of the goals is to identify the values at risk in that particular area, and then the actions focus on the values at risk. If one of the tactics they want to use is a prescribed fire, then they would have a very specific plan for a prescribed fire that would get implemented in spring or fall.
Again, there are other ways we can look at preparing a place or preventing fire. The prescribed fire is important for risk reduction, it’s also important for ecological integrity, but we might use forest thinning. We will also assess all the natural breaks like rivers and these types of things to determine what the status is. There is very detailed mapping. Actions through the summer will be dependent on whether we get the weather predictions. We’re looking at those indices every day and working with provinces and territories to see what they’re predicting as well.
It’s quite detailed, the plan a site has. It would know exactly where the values at risks are, and it would identify the tactics it’s using to protect them.
Senator Marshall: Who assesses the integrity of the plans, and who assesses it at the end? In the fall, when you go back, somebody has to go back to see, for example, they were able one, two and three but not four and five. Who is doing that? Is that a separate group? Who is assessing the integrity of the plans and the actions taken according to them?
Ms. Upton: Yes. There are a number of fire resources across the country. Mr. Campbell has a lot of folks working on fire, and I have a lot of folks working on fire as well. When the plans are done, they work with the national group that reports with me that would be advising and giving extra scientific advice. We collaborate as well with academics on that planning. I’ll turn to Mr. Campbell for how they operationalize that.
Mr. Campbell: For prescribed burns, there is obviously a prescription — hence the term “prescribed burns” — the humidity, the chance of rainfall, what the forest condition is and those sorts of things. They will go out and either do that prescribed burn, or the cases of prescription won’t be there so they won’t be able to do that prescribed burn.
From that, they’ll determine the other actions. Do we need to do forest thinning for that summer in that area — much as you had described, senator — or do we now move to full mechanical and start to do some mechanical removal in the area to lessen the amount of fire risk in that area? At the end of the year, my group goes over to Ms. Upton’s to the people who have that science background in fire science management, and they assess the work that was done in the summer and then they revise the plan for the next year. It’s a continuous loop.
Senator Marshall: So the plans and the assessment are done by professionals.
Mr. Campbell: That’s correct.
Senator McBean: Mr. Jones, you mentioned the Air Quality Health Index on people’s phones. I’ve been in B.C. when the air quality was terrible — 10 or whatever it was at the worst. You have to go inside, but you’re going inside in communities that don’t have air conditioning, so then you’re having this battle.
What is the advantage? Have you studied the advantage of having an Air Quality Health Index and telling people it’s terrible? Is it significantly better inside? What are the options for people?
Mr. Jones: Thank you. That’s a great question. In terms of the information that helps inform your actions, we’re trying to push out guidance and advice on how to prepare when you know it’s about to get bad, advice on things like how you can seal up your house the best you can to keep smoke out, and even advice on jerry-rigging air purifiers. I attached a furnace filter to a box fan a couple years ago because my smoke alarms kept going off despite the fact that my house was sealed up. More importantly, there is advice on whether to go outside. Do I have to? Should I go to soccer practice? The organizers must know if they should cancel the soccer practice or change the time.
The Air Quality Health Index covers 130 communities and about 80% of the population. It’s not the entirety of the country, but there are also alerts and advisories that cover the entirety of the country. The Air Quality Health Index is helpful because it helps inform these important decisions. It gives you advice on — if you’re in good health — what you should be doing at low, moderate, high and extreme levels. Also, if you’re susceptible to degraded air quality, there is a separate set of advice.
Senator McBean: Are our homes actually good filters? We’re closing all the windows and doors, but it’s still pretty terrible air in there when it’s terrible outside. Is that a false protection if you’re in a home with no breeze, if there is any breeze?
Mr. Jones: It can be miserable when air quality is at 10-plus, the extreme in all cases. We have some guidance for indoor air quality and how to preserve your indoor air quality in cases when it’s worse outside. It’s certainly better inside, particularly if you’re running a filter of any kind.
There is always the back-up plan, the plan B, which is to go to a cooling and clean air shelter. Many communities have public buildings with AC that they open up when there is extreme heat and/or air quality issues. Even if you don’t have AC, if you have a furnace with ventilation, you can keep it running to filter the air through the furnace filter.
Senator McBean: This isn’t on you, but does Health Canada have any idea of what percentage of Canadians actually have central air or air circulating through their homes?
Mr. Jones: Yes. I don’t have those numbers at my fingertips. It’s a fairly modest proportion, but we have tailored advice for different circumstances. The bigger concern — well, we bounce between air quality concerns but also extreme heat concerns. Our extreme heat concerns are more around high-rise apartments, whereas our air quality concerns are around smaller detached homes that don’t have AC or a circulating ductwork HVAC system.
Senator McBean: Ms. Upton and Ms. Fortin, you both mentioned studies, whether it’s partnering with global meteorology organizations or decades of fire management study. What nations are A-plus in this? What countries are managing fire management, risk and prediction best?
Ms. Upton: In my dealings with other national park organizations around the world, we have a lot of good practices that they look to. We also look to them for good practices. We share resources regularly, so there’s always an opportunity for exchange and bringing back best practices. But Parks Canada, in terms of the national park organizations around the world, is looked to for leadership.
Ms. Fortin: I can’t speak to wildfires specifically, but from the weather prediction perspective, there are many, but Canada is one of those as well. So Canada is a leading weather prediction country, basically. There are others, like Australia for certain conditions, the U.K., France, Germany, the U.S. — your classics.
Senator McBean: Those are good answers. Thank you.
Senator Richards: Thank you all for being here. Ms. Upton, how up-to-date are the resources that you have and are able to manage? What are the ages of your helicopters and your water bombers, if you use them? What about the equipment for the men and women and the safety training? Unfortunately, last year, there were two deaths. How up to date are the equipment and the training and all of that? I’m sure some people who go to fight fires are still green. If they haven’t been firefighting before, how long is their training? Then I have another quick question.
Ms. Upton: I’ll start and then pass to my colleague. In terms of our equipment, all of that large equipment is contracted, so we would have specs requiring that it be in good condition.
In terms of forest firefighter training, we do have a training standard at various levels. My colleague can describe that.
Mr. Campbell: Yes, there are three different types of training. One is on incident management and commands, so that everybody is acting in the same direction. When firefighters come in through CIFFC and they come through another province — like in the case of Jasper, where they came from Alberta — they all act under the same unified command structure. Everybody knows exactly how to act in the incident and what the teams are. Each of them has up-to-date health and safety.
Then within each of the teams, certain team members are more responsible for that health and safety, for first aid, those sorts of things, within each of the attack teams that have gone out. We think of them as units.
Everyone has higher than base level, like level two, on the health and safety training. First aid people go with them. On actual firefighting training, we are different from a lot of other countries because we do have a standard for forest firefighting, and everybody works toward that. That forest firefighting standard is used for training on a national basis. We use the national standard from Parks Canada, and the provinces do as well.
Ms. Upton: I can add one quick example. We always have members present with expertise, such as tree hazard analysis associated with the fire, because that’s one of the high risks.
Senator Richards: My second question is an observation. I fought forest fires when I was a kid. I didn’t have much training, but I stayed alive. The New Brunswick fire season isn’t really exponentially worse than when I was a kid. I hope it doesn’t get worse. There are still bad fires, but there were bad fires when I was fighting them when I was 19 and 20 years old too. We have a lot of trees in New Brunswick, but the fires out West seem to be really out of control. The fires in the last three or four years have really been horrendous.
Is this global warming or are the conditions of the forests out West partly to blame? I will just throw it out there and ask that.
Ms. Upton: I’ll just say one thing and then turn to my colleague at Environment Canada. For Jasper in particular, we’ve been collecting weather data since 1962. All the indices for wildfire were the worst they’ve ever been since we started collecting data. Certainly, we’re seeing much drier, hotter conditions. We see that reflected in our forest firefighting seasons as well; they’re starting a lot earlier and going longer.
Ms. Fortin: I will turn to my colleague Nathan Gillet who can speak to that more eloquently than I can.
Mr. Gillet: Thank you for the question. First, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, or IPCC, assessed the influence of human-induced climate change as clearest in the west of North America. That would line up with your observation. But, that said, I was involved in a study by our department looking at attribution of the 2023 wildfire season, and that study did find an influence of human-induced climate change across Canada, including in the East. It’s correct that the strongest influence is perhaps in the West, but we do see an influence of human-induced climate change on fire weather across the country.
Senator Richards: Thank you. I will just mention that one of the greatest fires that ever happened in Canada was 1825, on October 7. Around 10,000 square miles burned in 10 hours in New Brunswick. It was a very warm fall. I will just throw that out there.
Senator Klyne: My question is for Parks Canada, and if we have some time, I’ll go to ECCC in the second round.
According to a Parks Canada wildfire management web page, in 2023, the agency saw 109 wildfires in 20 different parks and sites representing more than 1 million hectares burned. What lessons did Parks Canada learn from the 2023 wildfire season to prepare for and respond to the 2024 wildfire season? Similarly, what lessons were learned from the 2024 wildfires to prepare for the 2025 wildfire season?
Ms. Upton: I don’t have a list in front of me, but there was a major sort of debrief regarding that 2023 season. We had an injection of resources and were able to expand the number of firefighters, so we have increased capacity in that regard.
Certainly, lessons are always learned on the science side. The biggest thing we are expecting to see after this year is — some of the forest fire weather behaviour was quite different. If you saw the news, researchers were on the ground looking to see whether there was a fire tornado.
All the prevention actions that we take are based on the best available science. As that shifts, we also have to shift our practices and thinking in line with that.
This year, again, we’ll have a lot to learn from the fire and the fire weather we saw, particularly in Jasper. That will have an influence moving forward. It’s a little early for results from the 2024 season.
Andrew may have some lessons learned, particularly from evacuations.
Mr. Campbell: Obviously, we increased the amount of evacuation training, where we had to do evacuation simulations. Luckily, we had just done one training session a couple of weeks before the Jasper fire that helped us to execute that evacuation.
We also looked at a different model to see how we could have more trained firefighters in more positions. For example, a campground attendant in Kejimkujik may be called upon at some point in the summer to be part of a fire crew. We may shut down different areas of our operation. We made those types of decisions after the 2023 season just knowing how many people and how many boots we needed on the ground. There were other pieces.
Ms. Upton: It’s also important to underline the mental health issue. The year 2023 was very challenging for people. We saw that again for first responders in 2024. We had two people, full‑time, on the ground, providing mental health services for first responders, and these services were accessed a lot.
We’ve learned over the last couple years that we really need to invest in those resources on the ground to keep people mentally safe as they’re fighting fires, particularly this past summer when some of the people fighting fires were seeing the loss of their homes or those of friends. That’s been a big lesson learned over the last couple of years for the resources and investments we’ve made in that area.
Senator Klyne: That raises this question: Is there any further support that you need to meet your wildfire management mandate?
Ms. Upton: I mean, it’s —
Senator Klyne: I threw it over slow.
Ms. Upton: There is a lot of coordination in Canada. There is a lot of great work going on. We’re continuing to learn, and I think that inter-agency cooperation has been key and increasing because we need the fire science, the predictions and all these tools. They’re all there, and it’s just that we need time to learn from these incidents and to continue to make the investments in the preparedness ahead of time, as well as in the response and in supporting the teams on the ground.
[Translation]
Senator Dalphond: According to the stats I’ve seen, over the past 10 years, an average of 5,597 forest fires destroyed 2.7 million hectares. Last year, 2023, was an exceptional year, because there were 6,623 forest fires that destroyed 18 million hectares, which is seven times higher than average. In 2024, we had 5,539 forest fires, which makes this year about average, but those fires destroyed 5.4 million hectares, which is twice as much as the average, although much less than in 2023.
Should we consider 2023 to be an exceptional year, not a representative one? Or is it possible we got a reprieve in 2024 and should expect numbers to go back up? Can you see that in your crystal ball?
Ms. Fortin: At the moment, it’s clear that 2023 was a record year. It was well above average, as you correctly pointed out. It may be a one-off. It’s hard to predict the future, but we can say that conditions conducive to forest fires will continue to occur in Canada. We can expect extreme heat and less precipitation in certain regions, which will result in forest fires in the future.
I’ll hand this over to my climate research colleague, Mr. Gillet.
Mr. Gillet: Yes, I agree. We did an attribution study for the 2023 forest fires, and we did indeed find that it was an extreme year, but it was likelier to be an extreme year because of climate change. In the future, we predict such years will become even likelier. Basically, it was an extreme year, but it was more likely to be an extreme year because of climate change.
Senator Dalphond: When we look at the 10-year average…. An average says something about reality, but it doesn’t necessarily paint a precise picture. Does the 10-year average show an increase from one year to the next or over a shorter period of time?
Mr. Gillet: Yes, if we look at the stats from the beginning of the 20th century, we’ve seen an increase from one decade to the next in general. There’s a lot of variability from year to year, but there was an increase.
Ms. Fortin: The climate is still changing, too. The average may tend to keep changing, too. It’s hard to predict.
Senator Dalphond: When you ask the provinces to help you in certain situations, are they reimbursed for the costs they incur?
Mr. Campbell: Yes, and so is Parks Canada if we help others.
Senator Dalphond: When the big fires happened in Quebec in 2023, did the province reimburse you?
Ms. Upton: Yes, that’s part of the agreements between the provinces and us. Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre, the CIFFC, has a reimbursement form. For example, we have people in the United States, and we’ll get compensation from the United States for the people there.
Senator Dalphond: Thank you.
[English]
Senator McNair: Thank you to the officials for being here and testifying today. Mayor Ireland, we very much appreciate you being here as well.
One of the reasons that we try to get on the list for questions so soon is when people start asking questions, they take the questions or lines that you were essentially working on. Senator Klyne touched on where I was going to go.
In your opening remarks, Ms. Upton, you talked about a force of 300 firefighters, “the national cadre,” as I think you described it, with funding of $65 million from the federal government as part of setting up that whole process I assume.
The year 2023 was the peak of the wildfire situation, but it appears to be worsening as we move forward. Is that funding adequate at this stage? Senator Klyne also asked about whether there are additional resources you could use to better handle or fight these wildfires. You talked about aircraft. For Parks Canada, I assume aircraft means helicopters and not water tankers, or bombers as they used to call them.
Ms. Upton: When required, we usually get the water bombers from provinces or territories.
Senator McNair: Saskatchewan just bought four.
Ms. Upton: Yes, so through that mutual aid agreement, we would put a request in to CIFFC, and CIFFC would look at where all these resources are in the country and where the priorities are, and that’s how we would have them come to help us fight a forest fire.
Senator McNair: And is the investment of $65 million going to be enough, or does it depend on the year?
Ms. Upton: The $65 million is an investment specifically in the cache, the centralized Banff cache. Our expenses for forest firefighting have been going up each year. We received an extra $50 million over five years in Budget 2021, I believe, as well as our existing budget. Then, we access special funds as required for the response when we need them, like we did last year. Last year’s expenses for the agency, I think, totalled $79 million. We don’t have $79 million, but we have access to additional funds if required.
Senator McNair: I’m glad to hear you talk about mental health resources for firefighters. One of the things we have learned in the study is that there are a number of firefighters leaving the profession due to the wear and tear on themselves, both mentally and physically. Are you seeing that amongst your cadre of 300 firefighters? You mentioned two health care officials on the ground. Is that enough?
Ms. Upton: Time will tell if we need to put more resources in place. After the 2023 season, we brought the teams together and did a number of things like healing ceremonies and gave them the chance to be together and talk through what happened.
We’re looking at peer-to-peer support like we have with park wardens. They have their own peer-to-peer support system. We are looking at a number of different ways in which we can offer supports, and I think where we might have done that more is a one-off around an incident. We now have to consider that has to be a regular part of the program.
Mr. Campbell: We have seen a pretty major increase in the number of family supports through our employee and family assistance program, from families looking at if you have lost your house in Jasper, and even families around some of our firefighters.
Where we have a large incident, we will bring in more through Mr. Jones’s group over at Health Canada. They are an SOS service, so a larger service. We have augmented that service at the same time with Indigenous elders, because the number of Indigenous firefighters that we have continues to grow across the country. As we do that, having other types of supports in place so that people can talk to individuals from their own community has been important.
All of these things are to try to keep people in the profession for longer and keep the expertise there. As Ms. Upton said, the proof will be in the pudding a few years down the road.
Senator Muggli: Thank you for being here. We really appreciate it. My question is for Parks Canada. The report received talks about the deployment of firefighters last week to assist in Montana. I’m curious if there are criteria for how you determine whether we are able to deploy resources to the United States. Is it as we are able, or are there other criteria? How many times do we have to do the Canadian “I’m sorry” thing?
Ms. Upton: That’s a good question. We have an incident tracking management database that tracks our finances and all the incident management teams that are running these fires, as well as the programs and the status of the fire. That is in real time, and when the fire season is very busy, it would be updated daily and shared.
As a part of that, we have a constant eye on whether we have enough resources, and resources available for export if required. There are times when we do not have resources available for export, and that could be even to a province, just because we are fighting our own fires. We are watching that constantly.
I don’t know how many times we have said no. I think it is common practice, in a sense, that at any one point in time, certain organizations wouldn’t be able to deploy resources. In 2020, we had a lot of folks out in Australia and the United States. The folks who are going are sometimes on the ground fighting fires, but it really depends. If it is a very different kind of fire behaviour and environment, we wouldn’t put our folks in that. A lot of times, the people we are sending are the really experienced folks who can run an incident. They will go to Australia, for example, and be put in charge of an entire fire and fire crew, so they are playing leadership roles. They are not always on the front line, but that is the kind of expertise we have. It takes about 20 years to get someone through fighting fires to having the level of expertise to run an incident and be the one on the ground making the hard decisions. All of those opportunities for deployment are opportunities to learn, grow and build skills.
Mr. Campbell: The Canada Labour Code II applies to our employees when they leave to other countries. If there is another firefighting service that would do something that was a higher risk than we would take in Canada, we would still have the Canada Labour Code II applied and they could refuse that work.
Ms. Upton: We have one person in every deployment whose job is to be the liaison. If someone on the line has an issue, concern or question about safety or anything else, that person’s specific role as part of the deployment is to answer questions, liaise back with us and ensure the safety of our folks on the ground. It is very organized.
Senator Muggli: Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Oudar: The previous questions were about the health of the population, but tonight I have a lot of questions about the health of the firefighters. That’s what I worked on in my previous career before I came to the Senate.
I’d like you to enlighten the committee on cancers recognized as workplace injuries. Science has shown that there is indeed a direct link between bladder, prostate, larynx, skin, lung and lymphoma cancers. We know that every province also has its share of recognized cancers.
What can you tell us about firefighters fighting fires for Parks Canada, and in particular about what happens after the passage of the bill to develop a national framework for the prevention and treatment of fire-related cancers?
Where do we stand in the development of this national framework after the bill was passed last year? What impact will it have on the work of Parks Canada firefighters?
Mr. Jones: I’ll answer in English, if I may.
[English]
Obviously, firefighters are facing all kinds of risks, cancer risks in particular, both from wildfires and also from the pollutants they are exposed to in their work. There are two pieces to this.
My team was working on a private member’s bill to develop the National Framework on Cancers Linked to Firefighting. That bill passed. I was actually here about a year ago talking to a Senate committee on that bill. The bill has passed and the national framework has just been tabled. Minister Holland tabled that framework. There are a number of activities we will be pursuing there to reduce exposure to toxic chemicals in flame retardants, in their gear and in the firefighting foams that they use to suppress fires.
In terms of the exposures from wildfires, the link between particulate matter which is in smoke from wildfires and human health is well documented. They tend to be more on the cardiovascular side of things, so chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, asthma, heart attacks, strokes, myocardial infarction — there is a long list. If the committee is interested, we just did a review of the science literature on the links between wildfire smoke and human health that lists all of the various ailments and the links between hospitalizations and emergency room visits post-exposure to wildfire smoke.
On the firefighters, we are trying to come at this both in terms of understanding the cancer risks better, making January Firefighter Cancer Awareness Month, developing — we hope — an inventory of firefighters and cancers and tackling the toxic side. I’ll turn to my colleagues to speak more about the activities for firefighters in federal employ.
Mr. Campbell: Right now, we are working with the unions coming up with a system of what would essentially be early retirement so that the number of years in, you would have a greater time. We also have a rotational period. I think one of if other keys is — and this is an important area, I’m sure, from the study — and I’ll use the Jasper example because I see the mayor right there, where the interface between —
[Translation]
I’m talking about the interface between forest fires and structural fires. When forest fires pass through a town or village, there are different types of equipment to protect the health of firefighters. In the case of Jasper, we were asked to remove all firefighters from forest fires and assign only people who had all the required equipment, to ensure that their health was properly protected.
[English]
The Deputy Chair: Mr. Jones, if you could, in fact — I ask in my position as chair — forward the documents you described to the clerk to share with our analyst, that would be very helpful.
As chair, I’m going to ask a couple of quick questions. For Mr. Campbell and Ms. Upton, we have talked a lot about Jasper, but the Little Red River Cree Nation, which includes part of Wood Buffalo National Park — they evacuated the entire nation of 5,000 people this year, including Garden River, which is part of Wood Buffalo. I wonder if we could talk a little about Wood Buffalo, which is a very different place than Jasper, Banff or Waterton. Can you explain the wildfire risks in Wood Buffalo? How bad were fires there and how do you coordinate with the First Nation that is within the park to deal with them?
Mr. Campbell: Ms. Upton can talk about the fire risk, but certainly we are seeing the same sorts of fire risks as all of Western Canada in Wood Buffalo National Park. For those who are not as familiar with Wood Buffalo National Park, it is about the size of Switzerland, just to give you an idea of the size of the park — maybe that doesn’t help, but a country-size national park. Within that, we have a co-management arrangement with all of the 11 Indigenous nations that have responsibility or lands or territory within the park. So there is a group that does look at, on an annual basis, that incident command; the management planning of the park goes through that group. That is part of what we do. There is also the hiring of members from the Indigenous communities into the firefighting crews within Wood Buffalo National Park.
We do break that park more into sectors. There is a full fire base there that is in Fort Smith. We also work with the communities when they have an evacuation plan. So Garden River for evacuation, and then we would bring forest firefighters down to that area and assist in that area as well. Fort Chip was another one; when Fort Chipewyan was evacuated — again, another area — we were involved in the evacuation. We both have employees in those areas but also involved in the evacuation and the planning by sector within the park, and that’s very important due to the size of it.
One of the pieces that we continue to use there is more satellite than we ever have in the past. Darlene may want to talk about that as well, but we have moved from a lot of fire tower types of detection to satellite detection — with our colleagues — and we get spot updates on a morning basis all across the country from satellite, where you can actually see the infrared satellite showing spot fires occurring all across the country.
I don’t know whether my colleagues from Environment and Climate Change Canada want to talk about that. Certainly, that is one of the big differences: the enormity of the park and the fact that we have got to get initial attack into a lot of those areas right away.
The Deputy Chair: That is the first time anyone has mentioned satellite technology. That is really interesting.
Ms. Upton: If I could add two quick things on Wood Buffalo, all our resources are deployable, but our permanent crews are situated in parks of highest risk. Wood Buffalo, as Andrew mentioned, is one of those. The other interesting thing about Wood Buffalo that is important for fire behaviour and how we are considering things, is Wood Buffalo had a number of what are called “holdover fires.” Those are fires that persisted over the winter and have the potential to pop up again in the spring. We were still, after 2023 and into 2024, investing a fair bit of resources into monitoring and dealing with these holdover fires in Wood Buffalo.
The Deputy Chair: I’m going to ask Mr. Jones this question: We have talked about the health of the firefighters. I want to talk about the mental health of Canadians who have been evacuated and traumatized by wildfires in their communities — post‑traumatic stress disorder, all kinds of psychiatric and psychological consequences. Is there a federal government strategy, working with the provinces and with communities, to help on those files as well?
Mr. Jones: Certainly it is on our mind. I think when we talk about wildfires and climate change more broadly, we sometimes get swamped by the enormity of the challenge. Certainly, the mental health effects are real and significant. In the bilateral funding agreements we have with provinces for health care, mental health was an explicit component. There are significant resources there. Mental health was a component that the federal government negotiated with our provincial and territorial colleagues to include. I think there is broad understanding that more resources are needed for mental health.
The Deputy Chair: Is there anything specific for communities that have been devastated by wildfire?
Mr. Campbell: If the committee has not seen the individuals that are at Public Safety, there are new provisions within the Disaster Financial Assistance Arrangements, or DFAA. I don’t think any of us would know the federal assistance program for individuals that have been for provinces that have given services to individuals that are under evacuation. They would have the details on that. But certainly, that is a new provision that we were all talking about this year.
The Deputy Chair: That is helpful. We will follow up. We are moving to second round.
Senator Petitclerc: So much has been covered, but I have a specific question — I think probably for you, Mr. Campbell. We talked about rescue and evacuation. I’m curious to know who has the expertise when it comes to evacuation and relocation of vulnerable persons, and specifically persons with disabilities. Because I can very well see it requires some specific knowledge, like: What do they need? Who are they? Where are they? And then relocating in a way that is appropriate is also a big challenge. Who does that?
Mr. Campbell: It depends on the jurisdiction. Within the national park jurisdiction, we would work with different emergency response agencies in order to be able to look at what the standards are for that. Ms. Upton is our champion of persons with different abilities within Parks Canada, and that is something we look at, from how do we run evacuations and get people out of campgrounds in those types of situations. Are we the best at it right now? I would say no. We are working on it and we will continue to move forward in that. I think when we are outside of that — the one area, again, I don’t want to say other people that you might want to call, but certainly the evacuations that have been done out of First Nations — Matt and I are on calls about those on a regular basis. I think Indigenous Services Canada fly out because it is very different, and as well when they are having to evacuate people from hospitals or medical centres in different places, it’s a very specific team that does that work.
Senator Petitclerc: Exactly. That’s why I was wondering. I was thinking when it comes to, for example, a municipality — I know, being a wheelchair user, I’m identified somewhere by the City of Montreal. They know I need assistance. But when it comes to parks, it would be very difficult. But there is a plan; that’s what I understand.
Ms. Upton: In particular, as part of the Visitor Safety Program, parks have a visitor safety plan so they know how to evacuate their campgrounds. Campgrounds are designed for evacuation. They must have two exits. Then there are whole systems in place particularly for backcountry folks as well. Those would get practised, usually fairly regularly, with whatever partners would be a part of that.
I would say from the moment the call was made by one of the Parks Canada folks that it was time to evacuate, it was a very well-oiled machine in Jasper. I think there will be a lot of lessons to learn there, and it is in large part due to the preparatory work that was done, the collaboration across jurisdictions and the leadership in Jasper, so kudos.
Senator Marshall: My question is for Mr. Jones.
Can you explain the connection between measuring the quality of the air when there is smoke and the type of public warnings that you give? I have been in Alberta when you couldn’t see the house across the street and they said to lock all your windows and doors. Is that the only warning?
Do you ever consider, when the air quality deteriorates to a certain point, saying that elderly people and infants should evacuate? Could you explain that in detail?
Mr. Jones: Yes, and I think Ms. Fortin can add to my response.
In terms of the guidance we have, we have air quality monitors across the country — not everywhere, but there is a good network. Based upon that, you can see on the Air Quality Health Index what the air quality is in real time, wherever you might be. Certainly, when you get above 7, it is “high,” and 7 to 10 — it’s a 1 to 10 scale — and 10 plus is above and beyond what is normally registered on the scale; that is off the charts, so to speak.
We have guidance for each of those numbers in terms of what you might want to consider doing and avoiding, both for the general public as well as for those who are more vulnerable to the smoke. At 10-plus, if you can avoid going outside, you should. Somewhere short of that, you should avoid strenuous outdoor activity if you can, and so on.
There is guidance there. I can share the two-column table —
Senator Marshall: I would like to see that. But it is done through public announcement, because the only public announcement I have ever heard is to go inside your house and close your windows and doors.
Mr. Jones: That’s right. There are advisories that go out from Environment Canada from the meteorological service once it goes over seven, because that is considered high. Then there is an alert that goes out when you are into the 10-plus range.
So the existing systems for transmitting weather forecasts are used to communicate when there is an advisory or alert when it is high or extreme.
Senator Marshall: Does the air quality ever deteriorate to the point where you suggest that certain portions of the population should evacuate?
Mr. Jones: Typically not, and that is for a number of reasons. First, with just a shift in the wind, it is hard to know where you can evacuate to. Often, if there is terrible air quality wherever you might be, then it is probably bad for quite a distance around you.
Of course, there are impacts from evacuations. Evacuating is not a decision to be made lightly. Usually, it is for an acute risk such as a fire being too close and the risk of your house burning is too high.
For air quality, there is typically not an evacuation. There are mental health impacts from needing to evacuate, and there are no guarantees that where you can go to in two hours would be better; it could even be worse.
Senator Klyne: I have a question for Environment and Climate Change Canada.
On June 3, 2024, Environment and Climate Change Canada announced $530 million of funding through the Green Municipal Fund to help build climate-resilient communities. I have two questions about that. First, in the context of wildfire-prone communities, could you please explain to this committee what a model climate-resilient community looks like, and would that be a quantum leap for most communities to achieve? Second, how many fire-prone communities are there in Canada, and is there a region overrepresented by wildfire-prone communities?
Ms. Fortin: I’m really sorry that I cannot answer that question. Mr. Gillet perhaps, but if not, I might propose we return with answers.
Mr. Gillet: I’m afraid I can’t answer that question either.
Ms. Fortin: We can provide details of the program and funding if you are interested.
Senator Klyne: I am very interested.
The Deputy Chair: Please forward that to our clerk to share with our analyst. Did you have another question, Senator Klyne?
Senator Klyne: No, I shot the wad there.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you. That is very elegant.
Senator Dalphond: My question is for the representative of Parks Canada.
You said you had 300 firefighters. I assume those are seasonal employees, because I suppose there are fires mostly from April to October or November. The snow helps, although there are still some fires burning in Buffalo. Are there resources that would be affected through their plans? Do they do training or do they go somewhere else?
Ms. Upton: Not all of them are seasonal. A large number of them are seasonal, but some are more involved in oversight and management. There is work to do through the year to prepare for the next fire season in terms of the planning I spoke about. Then seasonal employees in Parks Canada do all kinds of different things.
They are all brought back onboard usually around April, and they have to pass their physical tests and go through training. If there are any updates on protocols or anything like that, they learn those. Then they would start prepping for the season, making sure firehoses, boxes — all that stuff — is ready and deployable. It is quite a cycle.
But you are correct: There isn’t work for all 300 folks through the entire year due to the nature of the work they do.
Senator Dalphond: Of those 300 firefighters, how many are from Indigenous communities? I think in some places, there are only Indigenous communities that would be occupying the land?
Ms. Upton: I don’t know if I have the number. Pukaskwa has a permanent crew; they would have a high number of Indigenous firefighters. Wood Buffalo would also.
Mr. Campbell: I don’t have the number off the top of my head, but we can certainly get the number to you.
Senator McNair: I wanted to ask a question about cultural burn versus prescribed burn, but your website has a pretty good explanation of that, so I will not waste time on it. Not that it is not important, but I assume they are both tools used to mitigate the risk of fire.
Ms. Upton: Correct.
We brought on a specific person with expertise in cultural burn. The organization has been learning over the last couple of years what the difference is and how to deploy it. As Andrew mentioned, most of the parks and sites have everything from real co-management to advisory commitees and things like that. The use of a cultural burn would be discussed in that kind of forum, and all protocols would be followed.
But yes, it is another practice on the ground.
Senator McNair: I encourage you to continue to develop and strengthen the relationship with the Indigenous fire stewards and learn from them.
On the mental health side that we talked about earlier, we had one witness from Kamloops, I think, and I hadn’t thought about this aspect before. They were part of the idea of “stay and defend.” She talked about how they had 2,000 people in their community and all of the equipment. Then they were properly redeployed to another area of the fire, but the psychological impact of being left behind to fight by yourself, from a mental health point of view —
I think you will find the two people you have on the ground will have to keep expanding significantly.
Senator McBean: Ms. Fortin, in answering Senator Petitclerc when she asked you about predictability, you said that you can predict tomorrow, next week and next season. You can do seasonal predictions. Then you said that this summer, they saw there was risk. In my sassy little note to myself here, it says, “Isn’t that just obvious?” It strikes me that predicting that there is an increased fire risk now is a bit of a no-brainer. We have been sitting around here and it sounds like fire has been baked in for, I think somebody said, the next decade.
I mean this respectfully, because I’m listening here, and I’m so grateful. Thank you for being here and sharing all of your expertise. It is good to know you guys are on it.
How specific and targeted are you to confidently say you need to be moving your cache of supplies? How is everything working here more than just like, “Yeah, duh”?
Ms. Fortin: It’s a great question, and I’m going to say first, as a response, that it depends. The farther away we are in time, the more uncertainty we might have, on the precision of boundaries, let’s say, and that’s going to resolve itself over time.
In general, there are some conditions we predict better than others. Precipitation, for example, is still difficult. Right now, we’re doing the seasonal forecast for the winter. We’re starting to see signals from a temperature perspective but no signals for precipitation. Obviously, there’s going to be precipitation this winter, but we can’t yet tell you if it’s going to be more, the same or less than usual. In that way, it depends a little bit.
Of course, the early seasonal predictions tend to be these big areas or regions. You see a little if there are going to be hotter or cooler temperatures, for example, or changes in precipitation. As we get closer in time, we can provide information that is much more high-resolution for a given region.
In my remarks, I mentioned that when Yellowknife was evacuated in 2023, we used a super high-resolution model to do the model of the air quality and the smoke dispersion specifically in the vicinity of Yellowknife to be able to give advice on when and where to evacuate, for example.
So it depends a little bit. Of course, when we are in a wildfire or during a severe weather event, we update and provide the information on a quasi-continuous basis to partners across the government and jurisdiction.
Senator McBean: Are you picking up the phone and calling?
Ms. Fortin: Yes.
Ms. Upton: Just to make the link to the weather, we have levels of preparedness and so do provinces and territories. We use a common system for levels of preparedness. It is important to have those outlooks, and, obviously, as we get closer, if the level of preparedness rises to a certain level, we will start moving resources. We may bring helicopters in. There is a lot of response readiness that’s based on weather, and it’s important data that we have in order to deploy and prepare.
It starts vaguely, and as it gets more specific, it triggers more actions, deployments and interesting things.
Mr. Campbell: On a whole-of-government basis, there is a daily briefing that starts every day from the Government Operations Centre with Environment Canada saying, “Here is where our prediction for today is; here is where tomorrow is; here is where one week is.” We all look at that — all of us, all across government — and then look at where we need to deploy resources. As Darlene said, we take it and do one thing at Parks Canada, but that’s a whole-of-government approach through the Government Operations Centre.
I always want to give them a shout-out because they are a group that is not very known in Canada, and they are something that all Canadians should be proud of because they give all levels of government and all government agencies this coordination factor that I think most other countries would dream of.
Senator McBean: With everybody saying it was sort of like a perfect storm — that seems like such a cliché thing to say — but with everything around the Jasper area, had you already been moving supplies into the area, saying, “Lightning is going to strike. There are going to be source points?”
Ms. Upton: As an example of that, we have lightning strike monitoring, so we knew of a lightning strike. We deployed instant management teams immediately.
Senator McBean: What I’m wondering about is two weeks before that.
Ms. Fortin: From a weather perspective, for this year — so this is not specific to Jasper — in general for the wildfire season, we started briefing and sharing information with the Government Operations Centre in December. So it was the December prior because we could see signals indicating that there was going to be an enhanced risk of wildfire.
Senator McBean: Did the cache of equipment start getting moved and mobilized? Do you start moving it?
The Deputy Chair: The signal, to be clear, was there was no snow anywhere in Alberta.
Senator Richards: Thank you again for being here. Senator McBean talked about readiness, and I’m going to ask about coordination with other nations. How is that readiness? When you look at the fire situation out West, these firefighters, men and women, work themselves to exhaustion. When do you decide that a crew from South Africa or Australia is needed? Also, I think our firefighters went to Greece and Portugal this year. When do you decide to do that? Is that internationally coordinated, or do you just pick up the phone at a certain time and call? How does that work?
Ms. Upton: The requests for deployments internationally come in through CIFFC, and they would do a call out to provinces. That’s the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre, and all those international calls come into that organization, and then they would reach out to their contacts in provinces, territories and ourselves to check our availability. We would only send folks if we’re not ourselves at risk and we’re not a high level of risk.
Senator Richards: How do the guys from South Africa and Australia get the call to come? It’s very different terrain from South Africa and Australia. I’m wondering how that’s coordinated. Do they go into the crews up here, or do they have their own shift bosses? How does that work?
Ms. Upton: This would be a question more for the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre, or CIFFC, in terms of their protocols. Sorry, we’re so acronym heavy in the government. But they would have the protocols and everything for that. They would be the ones that would be asking internationally for help. Folks coming in must meet some standards and know how to operate.
For example, our crews that went to Montana had a full day’s debrief ahead of the fire. That’s where they would make sure they understand all the equipment being used and have familiarity with that. There are a number of protocols and everything in place that ensure the safety of folks that are going. It is all coordinated through CIFFC. The lead for that federally is Natural Resources Canada, but it is an organization that we all contribute to. We have seats on the steering committee, the board of governors.
Senator Richards: I’m sure some of the crews from South Africa, Australia, New Zealand or wherever have been here before, and they have come back. And the crews that go to Montana or Australia, if need be, have been there before too.
Ms. Upton: Exactly.
[Translation]
Senator Oudar: I’ll continue the exchange from earlier because I had another question. We talked about cancers and occupational diseases, and you talked about mental health.
I have two questions. The first has to do with the statistics you may have. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that, like all federal government officers, the Government Employees Compensation Act applies to compensation for firefighters; in which case, each province administers the compensation for you and pays it to each firefighter under this act. Can you tell me if that’s the case? If so, do you still have common statistics, or do you let all the provinces manage the statistics themselves? Are you aware of any increase in occupational illnesses and mental health problems?
I’m asking you because the management data are also used for prevention. What kind of statistics do you have, if any?
Could you enlighten the committee on these figures, or provide them later if you don’t have them with you?
Mr. Jones: I have more specific information on that.
One of the reasons the bill was necessary was to deal with this type of information.
Most firefighters aren’t employees of the federal government, but of municipalities and provinces. The information isn’t complete or readily available, which is why we’re preparing to launch a new project. It’s a database of all firefighters to monitor their health. It’s an opportunity to accumulate relevant information to better develop policies and regulations, but it’s one of the projects, after Montreal, that’s part of this new strategy.
Senator Oudar: It’s also a matter of compensation and, above all, prevention to avoid certain problematic situations that are avoidable. Indeed, it’s serious, because there are a lot of cases of cancer that differ from province to province. In addition, there are deaths, and compensation for survivors also differs from one place to another.
Thank you. I see that this is something that’s in flux, and you may have more figures when the national framework applies and you’re better equipped.
What’s your assessment of the health and workplace illnesses of the 300 employees who work for you? Has there been an increase? Do you think the situation has worsened in terms of their health? As a leader, what is your assessment of the health of your troops?
[English]
Mr. Jones: Let me respond briefly to the points you made. We see multiple problems that we’re trying to address through the new action plans. One is the lack of information and research. We’re trying to tackle that with the database that will give us a time series of information and a complete picture.
The second is the compensation. As a Canadian, I find it frustrating that you can contract one kind of cancer and receive compensation in this province but the same kind of cancer and not be compensated in the next. One of our goals is to pull our provincial counterparts together in the hopes that we can have a highest common denominator in terms of coverage for workers’ compensation for the different types of cancer.
The last one is screening. One of our plans is to work with public health agencies and public health officials to have more standardized screening. If you’re a firefighter, you should be screened more than the general public, and we’re going to have guidelines to push out through public health networks.
[Translation]
Mr. Campbell: We have a medical exam every year for our firefighters. That was one way of getting more information about their health and more long-term information. As I was saying, this is an area where we should redouble our efforts. As Mr. Jones mentioned, these are standards that were adopted a few years ago, but for us, they’re part of our health and safety programs. We always have to make sure that every one of our employees has the equipment they need to ensure their long-term health.
[English]
The Deputy Chair: I feel like the Jewish mother at the table; I’m now serving third helpings. Does anyone want to be on the third round? No. I will then ask a couple concluding questions.
Mr. Jones, you are the Assistant Deputy Minister of the Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch. We’re the Agriculture and Forestry Committee. Are you aware of any studies being done that look at the impacts of fire, smoke and particulate matter on our crops and food supply? What’s the impact on our livestock? What’s the impact on fruits, vegetables and grains growing in fields?
Mr. Jones: I’m not aware of any specific studies at the moment, but we are in constant contact with academics at various institutions across the country. Our focus has been on strengthening the ties to human health impacts directly from inhalation of wildfire smoke and what that means for hospitalizations, treatment and ailments, especially over time because I think there is too much focus on acute things and not enough on the things that impact you from chronic exposure.
I can certainly follow up with my counterpart at Agriculture to see if there is work there that is starting up. I don’t know of any at this moment.
The Deputy Chair: It relates to consumer safety. All right. I have a question for Ms. Upton and Mr. Campbell. Last summer, a number of us from this committee had the privilege of travelling to Rome to be with the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations. I will always remember meeting with the Chinese diplomat from the UN, who asked us quite plaintively why we didn’t just put out the fires. He said, “In China, we never have forest fires. We determine where they’re going to be and put them out.” But realistically, when you’re talking about something the size of Wood Buffalo, or even something the size of the Banff-Jasper corridor, we cared about the Jasper fire because it impinged on a townsite. We worried about the Fort McMurray and Slave Lake fires because they affected major communities, and Waterton was the same. But if there is a fire burning in Wood Buffalo and there is no human habitation nearby, what kind of priority is given to putting out the fire? Or do you just let it burn in the natural course of things?
Ms. Upton: In terms of values at risk, they are structural from time to time in communities, but they can also be related to critical habitat for species at risk and other ecological values like that. You’re correct — a lot of times in a large park like Wood Buffalo there would be areas where we wouldn’t prioritize stopping the fire, but it’s not just communities that would be prioritized. If there was critical habitat for caribou or some other species, it could elevate that particular area for more aggressive fire management.
The Deputy Chair: To a certain extent, this is going to be the status quo. We’re not going to be like Smokey Bear and put out every forest fire anymore because we don’t think that is good forest management.
Ms. Upton: Correct.
The Deputy Chair: I’m going to ask one last question and then I’m going to let the class be dismissed.
I don’t have to tell the folks from Parks Canada or the Mayor of Jasper that there have been many back seat forest firefighters in the wake of the fire, explaining from the comfort of their dining room tables all the things that they think you did wrong, to the point where it has become conspiracy addled. What do you say to the people who are second-guessing the decisions you made? Mr. Campbell, you spoke quite powerfully about how much you had already removed in terms of fire break — an extraordinary number of hectares. What do you want people to know about how Jasper was prepared and how that fire was fought?
Mr. Campbell: Thank you very much for that question. It’s humbling to sit with Mayor Ireland during this because he’s been so eloquent in speaking about this, but as I said before, Jasper was one of — if not the top — FireSmarted towns. It was a model of FireSmarting.
I think the piece that we need to learn from this is that fire behaviour in these super-dry conditions, in times that we have never seen of unprecedented dryness and winds — as Ms. Upton had said, if you had said 10 years ago that there were things called “fire tornadoes,” people would have said that’s the thing of movies. Those are here now.
I think that’s the piece, and we’ve still got things to learn, and we’re learning all the time. That is why we’ll do the post-review, and we have that under way right now to say that now we know those could be the conditions and this could be the new net normal, what do we need to do to look forward into the future?
There are things coming up, though, where we are looking at building back in Jasper to a new standard, a new FireSmart standard. Certainly, we work together with the mayor, and there will be announcements coming, I’m sure, on some of those new standards that we are looking at.
You may not be able to live in a forest and have cedar shingles on your roof anymore. That may not be where we are anymore, and the Insurance Bureau of Canada will certainly say that now, but I think that is the type of learning that we can all do after a catastrophe like Jasper.
It’s humbling to have the mayor, who lost his family home, here. We have many employees, probably the most employees — Mayor Ireland, I would hazard to guess — of anybody that have lost their homes. We find it upsetting when people do that other piece and say, “These were people in their community doing the best for their families.” And it is very insulting for those individuals, and hurtful for them, and we’ve had to put in extra health and mental health supports for those individuals because they’re hearing people every day say, “You didn’t do enough.”
When you say, “You didn’t do enough,” that’s saying that you didn’t do enough for your family, your spouse or your neighbours.
Yes, I think there are things to learn, but there are people out there to whom we should also say, “You did a great job.”
The Deputy Chair: Thank you all very much. Thank you, Mr. Campbell, Ms. Upton, Mr. Jones, Ms. Fortin and — bravely, on the video — Mr. Gillet. I want to thank all of you for your testimony, insight and passion.
I want to thank all the committee members for their active participation and their always thoughtful questions, and I want to take this moment — as Senator Black always would — to thank all the staff that support the work of this committee. That includes our interpreters, the Debates team transcribing this meeting, the committee room attendant, the multimedia services technician, the broadcasting team, the recording centre, ISD, and Olivia, our wonder page.
Senators, in preparation for clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-275 on Thursday, October 24, any members who wish to propose amendments or have observations should consult with the assigned legal counsel from the Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel to ensure amendments are drafted in the appropriate format and in both official languages and that observations are also provided for us in both official languages.
(The committee adjourned.)