Journals of the Senate
53 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2004, Canada
Journals of the Senate
3rd Session, 37th Parliament
Issue 7
Thursday, February 12, 2004
1:30 p.m.
The Honourable Daniel Hays, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Beaudoin, Biron, Buchanan, Callbeck, Carney, Carstairs, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Day, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Downe, Finnerty, Fitzpatrick, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Grafstein, Graham, Gustafson, Harb, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Keon, Kinsella, Kroft, Lapointe, Lavigne, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Massicotte, Meighen, Mercer, Merchant, Milne, Moore, Morin, Munson, Murray, Nolin, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Pitfield, Plamondon, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Ringuette, Rivest, Robichaud, Rompkey, Sibbeston, Smith, Sparrow, Spivak, Stollery, Stratton, Tkachuk, Watt
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Beaudoin, Biron, Buchanan, Callbeck, Carney, Carstairs, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Day, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Downe, Finnerty, Fitzpatrick, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Grafstein, Graham, Gustafson, Harb, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Keon, Kinsella, *Kirby, Kroft, Lapointe, Lavigne, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Massicotte, Meighen, Mercer, Merchant, Milne, Moore, Morin, Munson, Murray, Nolin, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Pitfield, Plamondon, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Ringuette, Rivest, Robichaud, Rompkey, Sibbeston, Smith, Sparrow, Spivak, Stollery, Stratton, Tkachuk, Watt
PRAYERS
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Tributes
Tribute was paid to the memory of the Honourable Margaret Jean Anderson, former Senator, whose death occurred December 8, 2003.
Senators' Statements
Some Honourable Senators made statements.
DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees
The Honourable Senator Bacon presented the following:
THURSDAY, February 12, 2004
The Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration has the honour to present its
FIRST REPORT
Your Committee, in accordance with the Parliament of Canada Act, met during the period of prorogation between the 2nd and 3rd sessions of the 37th Parliament, and before the members of its successor Committee were appointed. Your Committee wishes to report to the Senate the decisions taken.
Supplementary Estimates 2003-2004
Your Committee has approved Supplementary Estimates (B) for the fiscal year 2003-2004 and recommends their adoption. (Appendix A)
Your Committee notes that the proposed Supplementary Estimates total $3,574,600.
Main Estimates 2004-2005
Your Committee has approved the Senate Estimates for the fiscal year 2004-2005 and recommends their adoption. (Appendix B)
Your Committee notes that the proposed total budget is $73,551,950.
An overview of the 2004-2005 budget will be forwarded to every Senator's office.
As Chair of the Committee since October 2002, I would like to thank all the Senators who served on Internal Economy for their contributions to the Committee.
Respectfully submitted,
LISE BACON
Chair
The Honourable Senator Bacon moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Callbeck, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Bacon presented the following:
THURSDAY, February 12, 2004
The Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration has the honour to present its
SECOND REPORT
Your Committee recommends that the following funds be released for fiscal year 2003-2004.
Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament
Professional and Other Services $ 3,600 Transportation and Communications — Other Expenditures — TOTAL $ 3,600
Social Affairs, Science and Technology (Legislation)
Professional and Other Services $ 3,000 Transportation and Communications — Other Expenditures 300 TOTAL $ 3,300
Respectfully submitted,
LISE BACON
Chair
The Honourable Senator Bacon moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Maheu, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Stollery, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs, presented its Second Report (budget—study on Canada-United States and Canada-Mexico trade relationship).
(The Report is printed as an Appendix)
The Honourable Senator Stollery moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Banks, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Beaudoin tabled the following (Sessional Paper No. 3/37-29S):
THURSDAY, February 12, 2004
The Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs has the honour to table its
FIRST REPORT
Your Committee, which was authorized by the Senate to incur expenses for the purpose of its examination and consideration of such legislation and other matters as were referred to it, reports, pursuant to Rule 104, that the expenses incurred by the Committee during the Second Session of the 37th Parliament are as follows:
1. With respect to its examination of legislation:
Professional Services $ 22,051 Transportation and Communications — Other 819 Witness Expenses 25,758 Total $ 48,628
2. With respect to its special study on regulations made pursuant to An Act respecting firearms and other weapons, Statutes of Canada, 1995, Chapter 39, as contemplated by section 118(3) of that Act:
Professional Services $ 921 Transportation and Communications — Other — Witness Expenses — Total $ 921
During the Second Session of the 37th Parliament, your Committee considered twenty-two (22) orders of reference, held forty-seven (47) meetings and heard more than seventy-eight (78) hours from one hundred eighteenth (118) witnesses and submitted nine (9) reports in relation to its work.
Your Committee examined six bills, made seven (7) amendments and observations to two (2) of these Bills:
Bill C-10B, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals).
Bill S-5, An Act respecting a National Acadian Day.
Respectfully submitted,
GÉRALD A. BEAUDOIN
Deputy Chair
The Honourable Senator LeBreton tabled the following (Sessional Paper No. 3/37-30S):
THURSDAY, February 12, 2004
The Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology has the honour to table its
FIRST REPORT
Your Committee, which was authorized by the Senate to incur expenses for the purpose of its examination and consideration of such legislation and other matters as were referred to it, reports, pursuant to Rule 104, that the expenses incurred by the Committee during the Second Session of the Thirty-seventh Parliament are as follow:
1. With respect to its examination and consideration of legislation:
Professional and Other Services $ 1,704 Transport and Communications — Other Expenditures: 1,276 Witness Expenses: 13,475 Total: $ 16, 455
2. With respect to its special study of the health care system:
Professional and Other Services $ 20,279 Transport and Communications 6,219 Witness Expenses: — Other Expenditures: 3,650 Total: $ 30,148
3. With respect to its special study of the document entitled Santé en français — Pour un meilleur accès à des services de santé en français:
Professional and Other Services: — Transport and Communications — Other Expenditures: — Witness Expenses: $ 1,461 Total: $ 1,461
4. With respect to its special study on mental health and mental illness:
Professional and Other Services: $ 12,239 Transport and Communications 15,691 Other Expenditures: 1,611 Witness Expenses: 18,954 Total: $ 48,495
5. With respect to its special study on public health:
Professional and Other Services: $ 4,895 Transport and Communications — Other Expenditures: — Witness Expenses: 5,236 Total: $ 10,131
During the session in question, your Committee received 16 orders of reference, held 36 meetings, and received evidence from 200 witnesses over a period of approximately 67 hours. Eleven bills were referred to the Committee. In total, your Committee produced 16 reports including substantive reports on the healthcare system, on French- language healthcare and on health protection and promotion in Canada.
Respectfully submitted,
MARJORY LEBRETON
Deputy Chair
The Honourable Senator Kroft tabled the following (Sessional Paper No. 3/37-31S):
THURSDAY, February 12, 2004
The Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce has the honour to table its
FIRST REPORT
Your Committee, which was authorized by the Senate to incur expenses for the purpose of its examination and consideration of such legislation and other matters as were referred to it, reports, pursuant to Rule 104 of the rules, that the expenses incurred by the Committee during the Second Session of the Thirty-seventh Parliament are as follows:
1. With respect to its examination and consideration of legislation:
Professional and Other Services $ 32,261 Transportation and Communications 40 All Other Expenditures 65 Witness Expenses 10,719 Total $ 43,085
2. With respect to its special study on the financial system in Canada authorized by the Senate on Wednesday, October 23, 2002:
Professional and Other Services $ 65,158 Transportation and Communications 51,919 All Other Expenditures 8,100 Witness Expenses 5,727 Total $ 130,904
3. With respect to its special study on bankruptcy authorized by the Senate on Tuesday, October 29, 2002:
Professional and Other Services $ 48,377 Transportation and Communications 140 All Other Expenditures — Witness Expenses 3,376 Total $ 51,893
4. With respect to its special study on bank mergers authorized by the Senate on Wednesday, November 6, 2002:
Professional and Other Services $ 2,228 Transportation and Communications — All Other Expenditures 57 Witness Expenses — Total $ 2,285
Your Committee examined 5 bills (C-3, C-48, C-249, S-2 and S-21).
During the session, your Committee held 51 meetings (110 hours), heard 193 witnesses and submitted 16 reports in relation to its work.
Respectfully submitted,
RICHARD H. KROFT
Chairman
Introduction and First Reading of Government Bills
A Message was brought from the House of Commons with a Bill C-13, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (capital markets fraud and evidence-gathering), to which they desire the concurrence of the Senate.
The Bill was read the first time.
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading two days hence.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
A Message was brought from the House of Commons with a Bill C-14, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and other Acts, to which they desire the concurrence of the Senate.
The Bill was read the first time.
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading two days hence.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
A Message was brought from the House of Commons with a Bill C-16, An Act respecting the registration of information relating to sex offenders, to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to other Acts, to which they desire the concurrence of the Senate.
The Bill was read the first time.
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading two days hence.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
A Message was brought from the House of Commons with a Bill C-17, An Act to amend certain Acts, to which they desire the concurrence of the Senate.
The Bill was read the first time.
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading two days hence.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Introduction and First Reading of Senate Public Bills
The Honourable Senator Nolin presented a Bill S-12, An Act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act (modernization of employment and labour relations).
The Bill was read the first time.
The Honourable Senator Nolin moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Angus, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading two days hence.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Tabling of Reports from Inter-Parliamentary Delegations.
The Honourable Senator De Bané, P.C., tabled the following:
Report of the Canadian Section of the Assemblée parlementaire de la Francophonie respecting its participation at the APF Bureau meeting, held in Cayenne, French Guyana, from January 21 to 23, 2004.—Sessional Paper No. 3/37- 32.
Presentation of Petitions
The Honourable Senator Gauthier presented petitions:
Of Residents of the Provinces of Ontario and Quebec with respect to declaring Ottawa officially bilingual.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
A Point of Order was raised with respect to the second reading of Bill S-7, An Act respecting the effective date of the representation order of 2003.
Debate.
SPEAKER'S RULING
Honourable senators, the question raised here is not a question of Beauchesne or the rules. This is essentially a question that relates to the record. What transpired on the occasion or at that point in our proceedings has been brought into question by Senator Lynch-Staunton's point of order.
I believe that this is an important matter that I should rule on now because the bill is on our Order Paper. Taking something off the Order Paper, having been disposed of by a procedure that is in dispute, is an important matter that we should have the answer to as soon as possible.
The issue, as I understand it, is that Senator Lynch-Staunton believes that the words that I used as your presiding officer — and I will not try to remember the exact words; I do not have the record in front of me — were to the effect that the motion was not adopted or that the vote was not to that effect. However, the substance of my words is clear. It was that. whatever I said was regarded as a final disposition of whether a bill was to be given second reading and that — something very rare — the defeat of the bill at second reading occurred by virtue of my words.
The question as I recall — and it is fairly fresh in my memory — was "no'' to what question? For me, the answer to that is "no'' to final disposition of the matter at this time. The words "at this time'' should have been used by me; I feel badly in applying them now to give a ruling on this matter. Of course, honourable senators can dispose of my ruling as they wish. However, our practices are important and should be observed with as much precision as possible.
We also have developed a way of doing our business, which I do not think is consistent with the precision that the point of order draws to my attention in terms of what normally happens at this early stage of debating a bill at second reading and finally disposing of it.
I did hear Senator Kinsella say that he did not intend to speak. I was a bit puzzled as to why he said that. I now know why he said that. He had had a discussion with his counterpart, which set the stage, as has been suggested by Senator Lynch-Staunton, for a quick disposal of the matter. I did not take it that way. I took it that we would be sensitive to the desire that senators often have to speak and that they are sometimes not paying close attention to the precise words, to the precise things that are happening in a moment. That is why, even though there is no rule to this effect, that I take a moment to say that I will put a question in a formal way if I feel there is any confusion in the chamber.
My ruling is that the matter remains properly on the Order Paper and that we did not finally dispose of it through the words as provided for and stated in Senator Lynch-Staunton's point of order.
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A Point of Order was raised with respect to the use of electronic devices in the Senate Chamber.
Debate.
SPEAKER'S RULING
Senator Kinsella quoted rule 19(4). The operative words are "No person, nor any Senator, shall bring any electronic device which produces any sound...''
The rule continues as follows:: "...whether for personal communication or other use...'' Those are the operative words.
As to devices that fit within that rule, the rule speaks for itself — that is, devices that do not make any sound. This particular rule is the only one, I believe, that is relevant — although I have not checked Beauchesne. However, for our purposes, honourable senators, I will make the ruling based on our own rules that cover the subject, that is, that as long as the electronic device does not make any sound it does not offend our rules.
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Motions
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Trenholme Counsell, seconded by the Honourable Senator Massicotte:
That the following Address be presented to Her Excellency the Governor General of Canada:
To Her Excellency the Right Honourable Adrienne Clarkson, Chancellor and Principal Companion of the Order of Canada, Chancellor and Commander of the Order of Military Merit, Chancellor and Commander of the Order of Merit of the Police Forces, Governor General and Commander-in-Chief of Canada.
MAY IT PLEASE YOUR EXCELLENCY:
We, Her Majesty's most loyal and dutiful subjects, the Senate of Canada in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Excellency for the gracious Speech which Your Excellency has addressed to both Houses of Parliament.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Kinsella for the Honourable Senator LeBreton moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stratton, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Kinsella, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stratton, for the second reading of Bill S-7, An Act respecting the effective date of the representation order of 2003.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stratton:
That the original question be now put.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator De Bané, P.C., that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Austin, Bacon, Banks, Biron, Callbeck, Chaput, Christensen, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Day, De Bané, Downe, Fitzpatrick, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Graham, Hervieux-Payette, Jaffer, Joyal, Kroft, Lapointe, Léger, Losier-Cool, Maheu, Mahovlich, Mercer, Milne, Moore, Morin, Munson, Phalen, Poy, Prud'homme, Robichaud, Rompkey, Sibbeston, Watt—42
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Buchanan, Di Nino, Keon, Kinsella, LeBreton, Lynch- Staunton, Nolin, Stratton—11
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Nil/Aucun
Order No. 2 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Spivak, seconded by the Honourable Senator Murray, P.C., for the second reading of Bill S-8, An Act concerning personal watercraft in navigable waters.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Bill was then read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator LeBreton, that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
MESSAGE FROM THE HOUSE OF COMMONS
A Message was brought from the House of Commons in the following words:
WEDNESDAY, February 11, 2004
IT WAS ORDERED,—That the list of members and associate members for Standing Joint Committees of the House be as follows:
Library of Parliament
Members: Assad, Binet, Bryden, Caplan, Doyle, Duplain, Gagnon (Champlain), Gallaway, Grey, Kraft Sloan, Lill, O'Brien (Labrador), Plamondon, Schmidt, Stinson, St-Jacques—(16)
Associate Members: Abbott, Ablonczy, Anders, Anderson (Cypress Hills—Grasslands), Bailey, Barnes (Gander—Grand Falls), Benoit, Borotsik, Breitkreuz, Burton, Cadman, Casey, Casson, Chatters, Cummins, Davies, Day, Duncan, Elley, Epp, Fitzpatrick, Forseth, Gallant, Goldring, Gouk, Grewal, Hanger, Harper, Harris, Hearn, Hill (Macleod), Hill (Prince George—Peace River), Hilstrom, Hinton, Jaffer, Johnston, Keddy, Kenney, Lunn, Lunney, Mackay (Pictou— Antigonish—Guysborough), Mark, Mayfield, McNally, Meredith, Merrifield, Mills (Red Deer), Moore, Obhrai, Pallister, Penson, Rajotte, Reid, Reynolds, Ritz, Sauvageau, Schellenberger, Skelton, Solberg, Sorenson, Strahl, Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest), Thompson (Wild Rose), Toews, Vellacott, Wayne, White (Langley—Abbotsford), White (North Vancouver), Williams, Yelich
Scrutiny of Regulations
Members: Barnes (Gander—Grand Falls), Caplan, DeVillers, Epp, Folco, Gallaway, Goldring, Grewal, Guimond, Lee, Macklin, Manley, Martin (Winnipeg Centre), Meredith, Meyers, St-Hilaire, Wappel—(17)
Associate Members: Abbott, Ablonczy, Anders, Anderson (Cypress Hills—Grasslands), Bailey, Benoit, Borotsik, Breitkreuz, Burton, Cadman, Casey, Casson, Chatters, Cummings, Day, Doyle, Duncan, Elley, Fitzpatrick, Forseth, Gallant, Gouk, Grey, Hanger, Harper, Harris, Hearn, Hill (Macleod), Hill (Prince George—Peace River), Hilstrom, Hinton, Jaffer, Johnston, Keddy, Kenney, Lunn, Lunney, Mackay (Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough), Mark, Mayfield, McNally, Merrifield, Mills (Red Deer), Moore, Obhrai, Pallister, Penson, Rajotte, Reid, Reynolds, Ritz, Sauvageau, Schellenberger, Schmidt, Skelton, Solberg, Sorenson, Stinson, Strahl, Thompson (New Brunswick Southwest), Thompson (Wild Rose), Toews, Vellacott, Wasylycia-Leis, Wayne, White (Langley—Abbotsford), White (North Vancouver), Williams, Yelich
That a message be sent to the Senate to acquaint their Honours of the names of the Members to serve on behalf of this House on the Standing Joint Committees.
ATTEST
William C. Corbett
The Clerk of the House of Commons
Senate Public Bills
Orders No. 4 to 7 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Commons Public Bills
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Kinsella, for the second reading of Bill C-250, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (hate propaganda).
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Stratton for the Honourable Senator Tkachuk moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Angus, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 2 to 4 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Other
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Gauthier, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fraser:
That, pursuant to Rule 131(2), the Senate ask the Government to table a detailed and comprehensive response to the Fourth Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages, tabled in the Senate on October 1, 2003, during the Second Session of the 37th Parliament, and adopted on October 28, 2003.
After debate,
A Point of Order was raised as to the acceptability of the motion.
After debate,
The Speaker reserved his decision.
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Ordered, That all remaining Orders be postponed until the next sitting.
REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):
Report on the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2003, pursuant to the Act, S.C. 1988, c. 28, ss. 231 and 238.—Sessional Paper No. 3/37- 28.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool:
That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
(Accordingly, at 6:11 p.m. the Senate was continued until 9 a.m. tomorrow.)
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Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)
Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications
The name of the Honourable Senator Merchant substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Mercer (February 12).