Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Transport and Communications
Issue 1 - Evidence - February 5, 2004
OTTAWA, Thursday, February 5, 2004
The Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications met this day at 10:52 a.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Mr. Till Heyde, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, as clerk of your committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair.
Is there a motion for the election of the chair?
Senator Graham: I move that Senator Fraser be chair of the committee.
Mr. Heyde: Are there any other nominations, honourable senators?
Hearing none, it is moved by Honourable Senator Graham that Honourable Senator Fraser do take the chair of the committee.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Mr. Heyde: Carried.
Honourable Joan Fraser (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: It is an honour and privilege to chair this committee. It has been great fun in that past, and I hope it will go on being great fun for all of us.
The second item on the agenda is the election of a deputy chair.
Are there nominations for deputy chair?
Senator Day: I nominate Senator Gustafson as deputy chair of this committee.
The Chairman: It is moved by Senator Day that Senator Gustafson take the position of deputy chair.
Are there any other nominations, honourable senators?
I declare Senator Gustafson elected by acclamation. Congratulations.
Item number 3 relates to the subcommittee on agenda and procedure. The motion is as follows: That the subcommittee on agenda and procedure be composed of the chair, the deputy chair and one other member of the committee to be designated after the usual consultation and that the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses and to schedule hearings.
Senator Johnson: I so move, Madam Chair.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Opposed?
Carried.
Senator Day: On that issue, has there been the usual consultation and do we know who the third person might be?
The Chairman: The third person has habitually been Senator Phalen, and I would not propose to change that. However, the reason, as I am sure you know given your experience, we leave it a little open in the formal motion is that if, by chance, the third person cannot attend, then it is helpful to be able to call on another member of the committee to do the work.
On a systematic basis, in the previous session of Parliament, it was Senator Phalen, and he was a pleasure to work with. I think Senator Gustafson would agree, and I would not propose to change that unless Senator Phalen were unable to be here.
[Translation]
Number 4. The motion reads as follows: That the committee print its proceedings and that the Chair be authorized to set the number to meet demand.
[English]
Senator Gustafson: I so move, Madam Chair.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Senator Corbin: On that point, discretion is left solely with the chair to fix the number. Will the chair inform the committee of the decision?
The Chairman: The chair would be delighted to.
Senator Corbin: Since this incurs an expense, does the committee not have to approve that?
The Chairman: It is a Senate budget that takes care of it.
Senator Corbin: Not the budget of this committee?
The Chairman: I do not believe so, no. It comes out of general support services.
In any case, my general approach to these matters would be to only print as many as we need, plus a few spares, but not too many.
Senator Corbin: Would it be possible at some point to obtain the distribution list?
The Chairman: Sure.
Senator Corbin: In that way — speaking for my own regional interest — I want to ensure that certain people do get the committee proceedings.
The Chairman: Absolutely, but our proceedings are on the Web now, as I am sure you know. There is sometimes a bit of a delay getting the proceedings up there, but they do go up.
Senator Corbin: The problem is that no everyone cares for the Web. I am a traditionalist.
The Chairman: In terms of the distribution list, that makes it a little harder to tell you exactly who is reading what we are up to, but the print distribution list, sure.
Mr. Heyde: I believe the committee has recently printed 250 copies of its issues. The number is reviewed to ensure that we are not printing an inordinate number that are sitting in a warehouse. The bulk goes to the depository libraries across the country. I will certainly get the details as to who gets what.
Senator Corbin: To universities, schools of journalism?
Mr. Heyde: Yes. All the witnesses who have appeared also receive copies.
The Chairman: Any other questions on this item?
Number 5 on the agenda relates to the authorization to hold meetings and to print evidence when quorum is not present. It reads as follows: That, pursuant to rule 89, the chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the printing of evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a member of the committee from both the government and the opposition be present.
Senator Phalen: I so move, Madam Chair.
The Chairman: Any discussion?
Senator Corbin: Is that meant to read that it is one member of the government and one member of the opposition in addition to the chair?
The Chairman: I do not believe so. I believe, this being solely for the purposes of holding meetings and hearing witnesses, and not to make any decisions, that the view is that, if necessary, two members of this committee can do it as long as there is one from each side of the house.
All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
[Translation]
The Chairman: Number 6. The motion reads as follows: That the committee adopt the draft first report, prepared in accordance with rule 104. The first report is included in your package.
[English]
This is essentially reporting back to the Senate on how much money we spent in the last session. The total was $33,020 for the media study.
Senator Day: We had a similar report from another committee yesterday, the Rules Committee. It was like a public relations sheet for them. It reported expenses, but it went on to talk about what the committee had done and its reports. It was a brief summary of the committee's activities, which I thought was an interesting way to tell those of us who are not on a particular committee what the committee has been doing over the last little while.
The Chairman: As distinct from the final paragraph in the report we have in front of us — where it refers to three orders of reference, 38 meetings, 83 witnesses, 62 hours and five reports — you would like to see that —
Senator Day: The Rules Committee expanded on that. They broke down what they had done. Perhaps it is easier for the Rules Committee to do that. Is that something you have contemplated?
The Chairman: Not really. The proceedings of the Rules Committee in many cases — not all, but in many — are not public. As such, the proceedings are not printed. That is perhaps the best way, and in some cases the only way, to let people know what the Rules Committee has been up to, whereas our proceedings are indeed public.
If senators wish, however, we could certainly flesh it out a bit. I do not know that we would want to do a 10-page report, but we could add a few paragraphs to specify what the orders of reference were, could we not?
I am reminded by the clerk that, of course, one of the reports we submitted the last session is equivalent to this one and there were a couple of budget reports. There was the intercity busing study, which was the major one, and which, as you will recall, arose out of work in the session prior to that. We looked at Bill S-8, compensation for witnesses before the CRTC in broadcasting matters.
Senator Day: You can say that in two sentences, and I think it would be helpful.
The Chairman: Would the members of the committee authorize the clerk and me to do just that, on a purely factual basis?
Senator Graham: Any opportunity we have, as Senator Day suggested, to flag and publicize the work we are doing, or any committee of the Senate is doing, is a worthwhile effort.
Senator Gustafson: What was the amount we requested for the budget? Was it $75,000?
The Chairman: Was it $175,000?
Mr. Heyde: The budget itself had been a request for $435,250.
The Chairman: Requested?
Mr. Heyde: Yes, the request. There was a grant from the Senate of $197,850 for the media study during 2003-2004, of which the committee spent $22,189. There had been $530 spent during the previous fiscal year.
The Chairman: The discrepancy — you will recall that we had hoped to travel in November, or possibly even in January, but prorogation put paid to those fond hopes and so the bulk of the budget, having been for travel, we did not spend.
Senator Corbin: I have a question with respect to number three of the report.
Witness expenses, $10,300. Was that in connection with the media study?
The Chairman: Yes.
Senator Corbin: Was the payment of these expenses requested by the witnesses themselves, or is it something we volunteered?
The Chairman: They are informed when we invite them to appear, as I understand.
Senator Corbin: Most do not pay their own expenses, do they?
The Chairman: You will recall that we heard from some private individuals and university professors, people like that, and it is the Senate practice to pay their travel expenses. Large companies, by and large, do not claim travel expenses from the Senate. We do not write to them and say, "By the way, would you like us to reimburse your plane fare?"
Senator Corbin: Does the committee have to approve the payment of those expenses?
The Chairman: There is a general motion to that effect. It is number 11, travel and living expenses of witnesses.
What it will say, when we get to it, is that the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization, unless there are exceptional circumstances.
Senator Corbin: Who makes that decision?
The Chairman: If the committee has invited an individual to appear before it, by definition, we have considered that person to be a reasonable witness. Therefore, that person will be entitled to apply for reimbursement.
Senator Corbin: The steering committee decides who is reasonable and then the Chair —
The Chairman: Or who we have time for.
Senator Corbin: That is what I understood.
The Chairman: rule 102 of the Senate rules says:
The Clerk of the Senate is authorized to pay every witness invited or summoned to attend before a select committee a reasonable sum for living and travelling expenses of the witness, upon the certificate of the clerk of the committee attesting to the fact that the witness attended before the committee by invitation or summons.
Senator Corbin: That comes out of the Clerk of the Senate's budget, so why does it figure here?
The Chairman: We have to authorize our clerk to forward these certificates.
Senator Corbin: I always understood over the years that the Clerk of the Senate pays witnesses out of his budget and that it is not an actual expense of the committee.
Senator Day: This is like forgiveness.
Senator Corbin: I do not know.
The Chairman: I am informed that the system is as I thought it was — that is, that we include these items in our reports so that senators will know where the money is going. All committees do this, the idea being transparency in the spending of public funds, which committees are spending most on witnesses.
Senator Corbin: Still, from an accounting point of view, I think that item should be bracketed and accompanied by a note stating that the amount comes out of the Clerk of the Senate's budget and not the committee's budget.
I am not a professional in these matters, but it seems strange that it shows up there.
The Chairman: Perhaps I will ask the clerk to prepare for our next meeting a memorandum, for the information of all members, including the chair, setting out exactly how the system works.
Senator Gustafson: Is there a limit on the number of witnesses we pay travel for?
The Chairman: One per organization, unless there are exceptional circumstances — in other words, under we need a second witness from the same organization.
Mr. Heyde: If I may also note, Madam Chair, Internal Economy has established over the years a number of guidelines relating to the payment of witness expenses. They are required within 60 days. They can only claim Treasury Board rates for per diems and things like that, and there are guidelines as to transport costs.
Senator Corbin is quite right. These are not paid out of the budget of the committee but out of a separate budget.
Senator Corbin: It should be a stand-alone item with an accompanying note, in my opinion.
Senator Day: I agree. If someone unfamiliar with this discussion were to look at the expenses under item 3 of our first report, that individual would say, "I see that $33,000 of the committee's budget was used for the committee's study on the current state of Canadian media industries." However, that is not the case, because $10,300 was not part of what we begged Internal Economy for to do this study.
A little asterisk at the bottom saying that this came out after different budget would be helpful.
The Chairman: I am reluctant to depart enormously from what appears to be the standard format used by all committees; however, I do not think it would be procedurally inaccurate to include a note explaining how it goes.
Senator Day: That would achieve it.
Senator Corbin: We should ask Internal Economy to have another look at that, in terms of the accounting practice.
The Chairman: I was going to suggest that we draft a letter to say that members of this committee suggested there might be a slightly more readily understandable form for what is basically the standard form of reports.
On that basis, honourable senators, do I have your approval for this item?
Senator Graham: May I say one thing about this discussion?
The Chairman: Yes.
Senator Graham: The fact is that the expenditure was incurred under the terms of reference under which the committee is operating, and to reflect the true nature of the work of committee members it has to show here.
The Chairman: That is why this form of report has been used, but it is a fair point that all reports should be as clear as possible to ordinary persons who read them. I am perfectly happy to include a note, or ask the clerk to redraft it for us. On that basis, and with those additions discussed, honourable senators, have we approval for this agenda item?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I have a friendly amendment proposed to the item that we have just adopted, which is that after rule 104 we delete the period and insert a comma and add the words, "and that the Chair be authorized to make changes to reflect comments made in committee."
Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Senator Adams: I do not know if the clerk knows many people are interested and have no funds to come to Ottawa to appear before the committee. In another committee of which I am a member, interested people come to it and say they do not have the funds. I have a little difficulty that for two it comes out automatically to $10,000. I do not know how many people have phoned the clerk to appear before this committee. Up until the end of the summer, we would know how many witnesses we could bring in. That is what we did in another committee of which I am a member.
I do not know how the clerk came out to exactly $10,000.
The Chairman: Usually, we have not drawn up the witness list as a function of the cost. We have assumed that, if the Senate has authorized us to do certain work, it is important to hear the people we should hear. We will flesh out the report to explain how many people we heard in various circumstances.
Senator Adams: Should we not take that back to Internal Economy?
The Chairman: Internal Economy gets everything. We will not be able to provide a forward estimate until we have established a new term of reference and the steering committee has met to look forward at a new witness list. If that would be helpful to senators, we could certainly get something to you as quickly as possible on that point.
Senator Adams: Okay. The only thing I want to make sure of is that it is not too low or too high. If we run over $10,000, say, and cannot bring in a particular witness in, that would not be good.
The Chairman: If it were an important witness, I think it would be important to hear the witness, but not on a frivolous basis.
Senator Adams: Two people from the Soviet Union perhaps?
The Chairman: It happens, but I do not know that we are planning to hear anyone from the Soviet Union in Ottawa.
We turn to Item 7. Is there a honourable senator prepared to move item 7, respecting research staff?
Senator Day: I so move, Madam Chair.
The Chairman: Senator Day moves item number 7.
Senator Day: Madam Chair, dispense with the reading of it.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item number 7 is carried.
It is appropriate at this point to note that the Library of Parliament had some expectation that we would be making this motion, and so they have sent along Allison Padova, who is a specialist in matters of transportation, and Terrence Thomas and Joseph Jackson, both of whom have expertise in many things but specifically communications and have already worked with this committee. We welcome them back. They may come to the table, if they so wish.
Agenda item 8 reads as follows:
That, pursuant to section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the Chair, the Deputy Chair, and the Clerk of the Committee; and
That pursuant to section 34 of the Financial Administration Act, and Guideline 3:05 of Appendix II of the Rules of the Senate, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred individually on the Chair, the Deputy Chair, and the Clerk of the Committee.
Senator Gustafson: I so move, Madam Chair.
The Chairman: Senator Gustafson has moved agenda item number 8. Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Corbin: "Conferred individually" means that either one can proceed, not collectively but singly?
Senator Day: Anyone can spend all our money.
The Chairman: If you do not want to be hauled into court for having gone against the act. We turn now to agenda item 9.
[Translation]
The motion reads as follows: That the committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee. So moved by Senator Graham.
[English]
Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Turning to number 10, I would ask an honourable senator to move that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to
1) determine whether any member of the committee is on "official business" for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy, published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday June 3, 1998; and
2) consider any member of the committee to be on "official business" if that member is: (a) attending a function, event or meeting related to the work of the committee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the committee.
Senator Graham: I so move, Madam Chair.
The Chairman: All those in favour?
Senator Corbin: Have we had any of that in the past session?
The Chairman: No. It does not happen often.
Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
[Translation]
Number 11. The motion reads as follows: That pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witness expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable traveling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application, but that the Chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.
[English]
This is the item we spent a fair amount of time discussing.
Senator Adams: I move agenda item number 11, Madam Chair.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
I would ask an honourable senator to move agenda item number 12, that the chair be authorized to seek permission from the Senate to permit coverage by electronic media of its public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings and that the subcommittee on agenda and procedure be empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion.
Senator Day: I so move, honourable senators.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Carried.
Number 13 is for our information only; we do not have to adopt it. We meet on Tuesdays from 9:30 to 11:30 a.m. in room 505 in the Victoria Building, and on Thursdays from 10:45 a.m. to 1 p.m. in room 160-S. We met in these rooms in the last session. We met in two different rooms because there were not enough rooms to go around and these were the two best rooms available in those time slots for television coverage. We got a good run of television coverage the last time out.
Senator Gustafson: Would it be possible to move the Tuesday meeting back in the day?
The Chairman: I will look into the matter, Senator Gustafson, but I recall from the last session that tinkering with committee meeting times is the most incredibly complex matter. It concerns not only whether the rooms are available but also whether senators have conflicts. I know that for you Tuesday morning is very difficult.
Senator Gustafson: Travelling from the West means an extra day, because we cannot get here before 2 p.m., which is when the Senate meets. It would be appreciated if you could look at it.
The Chairman: We will absolutely look at it. I know how difficult it is for you, and that has been a concern of mine. In the last session, we were not able to accommodate you. Perhaps this time it will be feasible. We can hope.
Senator Gustafson: I do not know about the members from Winnipeg who are on the committee; I am not sure when their flights get in. I think they would be in the same situation, that they cannot get here before 9:30 in the morning.
The Chairman: I think sometimes they come in on Monday.
Senator Day: The Human Rights Committee usually meets on Monday, so they would be here.
Senator Graham: It certainly would be a conflict with the Foreign Affairs Committee, of which I am a member.
The Chairman: Is there other business?
All members have received this document, which is the standard introduction to the committee. I think most of you are familiar with it, although Senator Mercer might find it instructive. It is updated and includes what we did last time out.
Senator Corbin: When do you hope to obtain the order of reference from the Senate?
The Chairman: Perhaps we should go in camera to discuss that. I should like to discuss it right now, if it is agreeable to honourable senators. I hope we do not have to have a long discussion, but I think it would be appropriate to do that. Since it does constitute future business of the committee, I will go in camera for that. "In camera" normally means no transcription.
The committee continued in camera.