THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON ENERGY, THE ENVIRONMENT AND NATURAL RESOURCES
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Thursday, February 16, 2023
The Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources met with videoconference this day at 9:01 a.m. [ET] to study emerging issues related to the committee’s mandate.
Senator Josée Verner (Deputy Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Deputy Chair: Good morning. My name is Josée Verner. I am a senator from Quebec and the deputy chair of this committee.
Today, we are conducting a meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources.
[English]
I would like to begin with a reminder. Before asking and answering questions, I would like to ask members and witnesses in the room to please refrain from leaning in too close to the microphone or remove your earpiece when doing so. This will avoid any sound feedback that could negatively impact the committee staff in the room.
[Translation]
I would now like to introduce the members of the committee participating in this meeting: Margaret Dawn Anderson from the Northwest Territories; David Arnot from Saskatchewan; Rosa Galvez from Quebec; Julie Miville-Dechêne from Quebec; and Karen Sorensen from Alberta.
Welcome to all of you and the viewers across the country watching our proceedings.
This morning, we are continuing our study of the Canadian oil and gas industry.
To do so, as part of our first panel, we welcome —
[English]
— from the First Nations Major Projects Coalition, there are two witnesses by video conference: Chief Sharleen Gale, Chair of this organization, and Jesse McCormick, Senior Vice President of Research, Innovation, and Legal Affairs.
We also welcome Stephen Buffalo, President and Chief Executive Officer of the Indian Resource Council of Canada by video conference and John Desjarlais, Chair of the Board of the Indigenous Resource Network by video conference.
[Translation]
Welcome and thank you for accepting our invitation.
You have five minutes each to make your opening statement.
[English]
We will begin with Chief Gale.
Sharleen Gale, Chief and Chair, First Nations Major Projects Coalition: Good morning, honourable senators. It’s a pleasure to be presenting in the Senate of Canada today. I’m connecting to your session today from the unceded lands of Treaty 8 territory and my home of Fort Nelson First Nation. My name is Sharleen Gale. I am the Chief of Fort Nelson First Nation in Treaty 8 in British Columbia. I am also Chair of the First Nations Major Projects Coalition, or FNMPC, and it’s in that capacity that I’m speaking with you today.
I am joined by my colleague Jesse McCormick, Senior Vice President of Research, Innovation, and Legal Affairs for the First Nations Major Projects Coalition.
For those of you who aren’t familiar with our organization, the First Nations Major Projects Coalition is an initiative that started with 11 First Nations and now includes 130 First Nations in seven provinces and territories. We’re working on a project portfolio worth over $20 billion. All of these projects involve an equity position for First Nation partners.
Our main goal at the FNMPC is to enhance the economic well-being of our First Nations members by supporting informed business decisions in major resource projects and infrastructure. The First Nations Major Projects Coalition has supported negotiations on several successful clean energy projects, including the Chatham to Lakeshore transmission project in Ontario, where our members have a 50% equity stake with Hydro One, and the NeToo Hydropower Project in B.C., where our members are advancing their interests for majority ownership.
Our support is establishing major equity precedents on First Nations-partnered major projects. Additionally, the coalition has become a thought leader and convener of Indigenous leadership, government and the private sector on mutual business interests, including last April at our Net Zero conference and again this coming April at our Value Driven Economy conference.
For me, climate change has been impacting our area on the Fort Nelson First Nation lands for decades. Our elders and knowledge keepers have been pointing out since I was young how the winters are changing and how our hunting and trapping areas are being impacted by changes in the routes and numbers of animals. The same is true for our Indigenous cousins across Canada. Climate change is affecting all our lands and waters, which are the basis for our cultures, languages, ways of life and survival.
The coalition is supportive of Canada taking meaningful action on climate change, including clean energy infrastructure where First Nations are teed up to take ownership positions in these projects. Many Canadians don’t realize the systematic barriers that have largely excluded First Nations from meaningful economic participation in the industries that have made the rest of Canada prosperous. First Nations are looking for ambitious actions by the Government of Canada to achieve net-zero emissions by 2050, but in a way that does not further disadvantage First Nations.
We have reached a time where the federal government needs to support First Nations in economic reconciliation while taking real action on climate change. My vision for First Nations in Canada is one in which the worst impacts of climate change are averted and our future generations are prosperous because of the decisions we make today to invest in revenue-generating projects and meaningful jobs.
The coalition is industry neutral, and by this I mean that the main function is to support its First Nation members in negotiating benefits and equity in major projects regardless of sector. Since our member First Nations live in many different geographies across Canada and have often slim choices in what economic development options are available to them, the FNMPC remains neutral on what industries members enter. Given this neutral approach, our First Nation members are invested in a diversity of industries, including natural gas, mining, transmission lines and hydroelectric and solar production. Going forward, we want to see a vibrant self-sustaining economy built on foundations of Indigenous values and capacity.
Honourable senators, I will share with you to you today what the FNMPC has identified that First Nations need to get behind and to accelerate clean-energy projects. Canada must invest further into Indigenous capacity to operationalize informed decision making and accelerate project development; Canada should implement a national Indigenous loan guarantee program to support options for Indigenous business partnerships; Canada should look to Indigenous nations to find efficiencies in Canada’s project regulatory and permitting processes; and Canada must provide support to First Nations who will require training, education and other supports to benefit from new clean energy opportunities.
First Nations are on the front lines of climate change and want to be partners in developing solutions. The last 100 years have been an unbroken period of economic exclusion for First Nations in Canada, and we must all work together to ensure the next 100 years are built on economic inclusion and shared prosperity.
Thank you, mahsi’cho and hiy hiy.
[Translation]
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much.
[English]
Stephen Buffalo, President and Chief Executive Officer, Indian Resource Council of Canada: Good morning. Thank you, chair and committee members for the opportunity to speak today. My name is Stephen Buffalo, and I am the president and CEO of the Indian Resource Council of Canada. Our organization represents over 130 First Nations who have produced for or have a direct interest in the oil and gas industry. Our mandate is to advocate for federal policies that will improve and increase economic development opportunities for First Nations and their members. We want economic development so our nations can take care of the needs of their communities.
We are also very deeply concerned about our environment. Our relationship to the land is tied to who we are as people. Our members are trying to find a balance between the economy and the environment, but I’m not sure this federal government is. I’m glad you’re studying climate change and the oil and gas industry and taking the time to learn about everything that this sector is doing to become the best in the world in environmental and social standards.
The committee wants to study the importance of oil and gas to the Canadian economy. I can say it’s very important to many First Nations across Western Canada. It provides jobs, contracts, royalties and even equity shares in major projects. No other sector in Canada has engaged with First Nations to the level that the oil and gas sector has. We are talking about thousands of jobs, millions in royalties and billions in procurement.
I think about how much more our First Nations could have, how much further ahead we could be if our oil and gas industry were allowed to grow at the same rate as the American oil and gas industry in the past decade. They went from not exporting any liquefied natural gas, or LNG, to being the world’s biggest LNG exporter. They went from being an energy importer to being the biggest oil and gas producer in the world. Canada has resources as good as theirs — in fact, better. We took the opposite approach and landlocked our oil and gas, but let me tell you, it’s not too late. The world is hungry for our energy. Our allies want to buy our oil and gas, not Russia’s or Saudi Arabia’s or Venezuela’s.
As First Nations, we are in a position now to really benefit from that, to share the resources from our territories with the world, if only the Canadian government would start supporting the industry, instead of trying to shut it down. With all the layers of regulation and cost imposed by the federal government — the Impact Assessment Act, the carbon tax, the tanker ban, the Clean Fuel Regulations, not approving Northern Gateway, not approving Teck Frontier and now an emissions cap that requires industry to cut emissions by 42% by 2030 — it’s just one thing after another and in the middle of an energy crisis.
Do the First Nations want to produce energy from our territories more sustainably? Absolutely. And we are showing it is possible. We can remediate our lands to almost an original state. We can produce the cleanest LNG in the world. We can help our allies while also helping our First Nations communities.
One of the best examples of that, which I’m proud to share, is how our organization, working with industry and the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta, used federal funding to clean up orphaned or inactive or abandoned oil and gas wells, pipelines and facilities. This program has been a shining success story for us. To date, we have cleaned over 1,600 well sites, pipelines and facilities at various stages of abandonment and stopped methane leaks. The methane that we stopped was equivalent to taking 250,000 vehicles off the road. Unbelievably, some people criticized that and said it was a fossil fuel subsidy. That’s the point we’ve gotten to in this discussion.
Just for your information, the First Nations in Canada have a really bad regulator. Some of our members are part of a huge billion-dollar carbon sequestration project. It’s big business, and it’s making Alberta’s oil and petrochemicals and hydrogen much cleaner. This is how we can contribute to mitigating climate change: by producing our oil and gas at the highest standards and helping our communities prosper at the same time. Thank you. I look forward to answering any of your questions.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much.
Mr. Desjarlais?
John Desjarlais, Chair of the Board, Indigenous Resource Network: Thank you, chair and senators, for the invitation to speak today on these very important topics. As Canada and the rest of the world deal with the ongoing energy crisis, we are reminded about the important role that Canada’s energy producers play in providing the world with clean and reliable energy. More importantly, we need to remind ourselves of the role our Indigenous peoples play as workers, business owners and partners in the energy economy.
[Indigenous language spoken]
My name is John Desjarlais. I am Cree Métis from the historic community of Cumberland House in northeastern Saskatchewan. I’ve worked directly in the resource economy for over 20 years in a variety of capacities, as a worker, as a business owner, including my work as a technician and as a professional engineer.
I’m here in the capacity of chair of the Indigenous Resource Network, a network of Indigenous workers and businesses that participate in the resource economy. We’ve had the opportunity to play a role in advocating for responsible resource development and for facilitating discussion on Indigenous involvement and resource projects. It’s clear through our polling that Indigenous people support resource development. Sixty-five per cent of Indigenous people across Canada said they are supportive or very supportive of resource development.
What needs to be discussed is how Indigenous people can be engaged with industry and how responsible resource development can provide prosperity through greater autonomy and self-determination for our communities. At the core, we represent Indigenous people and interests participating directly in the resource industry. For workers and businesses that provide goods and services to the industry, we want to emphasize the important role that these high-paying jobs play in supporting them and their families. Additionally, the impact that these projects have on our Indigenous communities and businesses is immeasurable with procurement being a considerable benefit to Indigenous contractors and businesses.
As well, the communities have moved past the role of stakeholders and are now taking on new responsibilities as equity partners in many of the projects. We have recently seen major equity deals signed with companies such as Enbridge, where Indigenous communities are able to fund a stake in the projects that run through their territory. Specifically, the Enbridge deal was signed by 23 communities in Northern Alberta and which saw a $1.2-billion investment made by those communities to achieve an 11.12% interest in some of Enbridge’s pipelines in the northern Athabasca region. It is the largest deal of its kind and should be celebrated.
Indigenous communities now have a seat at the table and will now be receiving major own-source revenue streams. The case in B.C. is another success story with LNG Canada playing a major role in Indigenous ownership. The Haisla First Nation has its own LNG project, Cedar LNG, with plans to ship clean Canadian energy to Asian buyers and lower global emissions.
Additionally, the Nisga’a Nation purchased its own project called Ksi Lisims LNG, with a similar goal of transporting 12 million tonnes per year of liquefied natural gas to Asian markets.
The global energy crisis will impact people around the world, specifically those in lower-income communities. Canada’s Indigenous people have an important role to play in providing the world its energy.
As advocates for Indigenous workers, it’s important to talk about the potential harms policy can have on workers and industry. With the news earlier this year that Canada is exploring “just transition” and what that legislation should look like, I think it’s important to highlight Indigenous workers in the oil and gas industry and the positive impact their work has on families and communities.
Indigenous people working in oil and gas make almost three times more money than in any other industry. Indigenous people are starting to participate more equitably in this industry, closing the capacity gap. After years of playing catchup, the concern is that a transition to other means of economic development would mean opening that gap, and wage and socio-economic disparities would again widen.
We also feel that Indigenous people working in the industry are achieving greater means of equitable participation, unlike most industries. This means we are now able to influence greater environmental outcomes and sustainability and impacts.
Some of the largest Indigenous economic development entities and businesses are supported by this industry. As service providers in reclamation, stewardship and monitoring, we can to greater degrees impart our values on multi-generational, sustainable environmental management. As owners now in projects, we can directly manage and advise on performance and impact expectations on oil and gas projects. We no longer have to advocate, but simply through authority and regulation, we can insist on greater degrees of environmental performance and sustainability.
Kinanâskomitin. Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak, and I will absolutely answer questions if there are any.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator Arnot: Witnesses, thank you for your presentations. My question is for each group to respond to if they wish. We’ve heard that one of the big issues is access to funds to properly participate in major projects. Those are obviously huge dollar amounts. I’m wondering what you would suggest exactly there, because I see what you’re doing; each one of the groups is really working on reconciliation and taking some direct action. Also, it is the treaty rights implemented in a modern context, if you see it through that lens, because the treaties were about mutual benefit, partnership and, fundamentally, mutual respect. If you look at the spirit and intent of treaty, what was intended at the time — without any question — was to have an equal partnership.
I am heartened to hear that you are moving forward on these ideas. I would like to know how you are going to access the kinds of funds, billions of dollars, to be an equal partner, which is very important.
I am happy to hear about the orphaned wells project — it is very important to Saskatchewan and Alberta — and the carbon capture underground storage or sequestration as well. Again, when you are protecting the land, the water and the air, it is a fundamental vision for Indigenous people. I know that you would have that in mind.
I like the idea of the investment but also the jobs, the training and the participation in the benefits of these kinds of resource developments. I would like to hear anything specifically you need from our committee to understand and support what you are trying to do.
Mr. Buffalo: If I can answer that first, thank you for the question.
Here in Alberta, we were fortunate. The premier of the day, Jason Kenney, started what was called the Alberta Indigenous Opportunities Corporation. It worked out that I am now the chairman of this corporation and this board. What it does is it provides a loan guarantee to the First Nation that lacks the investment capital.
Also, we need a strong partner. We need industry to step up. We have done four deals. As my colleague John Desjarlais pointed out, 23 First Nations recently, with Métis communities, supported a big deal with Enbridge on pipeline ownership.
Through these four deals, what we have seen through the Alberta Indigenous Opportunities Corporation is that we are going to see $31 million of revenue that the bands have never seen before coming into their coffers by participating in these economic opportunities. Keep in mind this is just a loan guarantee. It is not cash.
The federal government should support a similar program too. We have said it many times: Billions of dollars are made in our traditional territories, and we see just a small bit of action from it. People think we are just happy with jobs. No, we need more. Really, the driver to all this is getting away from this Indian Act. This would lead towards what I would call a resource revenue-sharing opportunity. We need a government that wants to do that, both provincially and federally, to help First Nations get away from that.
Senator Arnot: I would like to hear from the other witnesses.
Mr. Desjarlais: I can offer some comments here as well.
Personally, I have been fortunate to be involved looking at what was successful in Alberta and helping to advise and stand up a similar organization in Saskatchewan, the Saskatchewan Indigenous Investment Finance Corporation. SIIFC is very similar in its structure, organization, intent and mandate to the Alberta Indigenous Opportunities Corporation, or AIOC, is to provide banking and financial opportunities through loan guarantees to Indigenous communities so that they can participate in investment and infrastructure.
As Stephen mentioned, this is certainly a desire, intent and aspiration of the Indigenous Resource Network to advocate for this. What does this look like? Some of the things we talk about are what the value of ownership is and what that can bring: increased capacity, risk-management mitigation, decision-making authority and things like that. We realize the benefits extend far beyond those source revenues that Stephen mentioned, which are incredibly important.
Indigenous communities, we find, are achieving greater means of reconciliation when they are self-determining, when they are creating programs and services for us, by us. Source revenues are a big piece of that; ownership is a big piece of that. We are looking for governments to set up similar organizations and arrangements that would facilitate and support that type of investment back into Canada.
Yes, we are very interested. There is a trend. The Indigenous Research Network is campaigning now to see more activity like that across Canada, provincially, jurisdictionally, as well as nationally.
Then there are already successful mechanisms that exist, financial arrangements that exist that we can build off of. We are not starting from scratch. It is happening. It is just a matter of doing it more and accelerating that.
Ms. Gale: Thank you. I believe that we have to improve access to capital for First Nations. It isn’t just a government problem. It is a problem that is borne by all of us. Indigenous communities, the private sector and government all have a role to play.
I see this as an opportunity. As Stephen said, provinces like Alberta, Ontario and Saskatchewan have established government-backed finance support. We would like to see that on the federal level.
In my territory, we have the three biggest gas plays in North America. Since 1973, $12.6 billion has left our territory where we have had minimal opportunity to have any of that money flow back to our communities.
I see this as a real opportunity for us to be able to have equity in major projects. In one case, we experienced the opportunity to have equity in a pipeline. When we went for the loan, the cheapest loan we could get were at credit card rates, between 12 and 15%. This is a huge problem.
We want to have the same living standards as other Canadians. We want to build up our communities, pave our roads and have health centres, good lighting and safety measures for our youth and elders. This is a real challenge.
This is one of the biggest problems we have for our members of the First Nations Major Projects Coalition.
Senator Arnot: What is the response from Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada to your asking for this kind of support? Once again, I say this is quite clearly a treaty right. Certainly, it is a human right, and it is also an Indigenous right.
I’m wondering what the response is. This makes so much common sense. It would fulfill the treaty relationship as it was intended.
Mr. Buffalo: In my experience, when we went to Ottawa asking for money for the abandoned well support, when we talk about the AIOC — the Alberta Indigenous Opportunities Corporation — everyone that we have talked to agrees it is a good idea. It is just nobody really wants to carry the football, so to speak, and push it to the level where it needs to be.
As far as I can tell, people on the Hill know what it is about and what it has done, but is there going to be any support behind such a program? I don’t know who would make that decision, if it is the finance Mminister or Indigenous Services Canada — I don’t think they would either.
Senator Arnot: Someone has got to make them.
Mr. Desjarlais: Yes. In our experience, similar to that, we have heard rumblings. We perceive that people understand these types of mechanisms are there and working. Absolutely, it is easily an aspect of rights and treaty rights.
We have never heard anything formal, any type of movement or initiative to see something like this at the federal level. We are still observing, watching, waiting and hoping, essentially.
Senator Arnot: Our committee would be quite interested to know what you think we should do to help push the federal government, the executive branch of government.
Ms. Gale: The First Nations Major Projects Coalition recently sent a letter to the federal government asking for this to be in the budget. I know that it has been a challenging discussion, but I think it is necessary that that happens immediately.
We are in a climate crisis. In order for First Nations to be able to help with those initiatives, we need access to capital.
For my First Nation, we repurposed an old oil and gas well and got a $40 million grant from the federal government. That’s the only reason why we are successful in our project. We need other means of funds to be able to ensure we are contributing meaningfully to the climate change initiative.
Across Canada, other than governments and municipalities, First Nations are the major owner of clean energy projects. Being able to have access to the grid to sell power to whoever we want is necessary.
We also have to look at working with our U.S. counterparts and not be competitive. We need to actually work together and create synergies if we want to be a major player in economic reconciliation and become economic climate change champions in North America.
Before first contact, First Nations had our trade routes. I’m Dene. I’m from Fort Nelson First Nation. What you find up in our territory, the critical minerals were always found in Mexico and vice versa. What you couldn’t find here is now here, from Mexico, in our artifacts. We didn’t have borders. Those were our natural trade routes. We were shut down through borders.
We have to look beyond borders by bringing the Indigenous communities together again on both sides. By coming together with our U.S. cousins, we could really make a difference and a big change.
Senator Sorensen: Thank you. My question is directed to Chief Gale and then I’ll ask to go on second round, if there’s time.
Just to reiterate, part of your coalition’s mandate is to “[s]afeguard air, land, water and medicine sources from the impacts of resource development by asserting its members’ influence and traditional laws on environmental, regulatory and negotiation processes.”
How has legislation such as UNDRIP, the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, and other legal developments impacted the ability and goals of your coalition to assert that kind of influence?
Secondly, can you comment on how First Nation owners take different approaches in balancing environmental protection with resource development?
Ms. Gale: Obviously, each community is very unique. The capacity levels are very different across the country.
For my community, the Fort Nelson First Nation, community impacts were a major issue with the fracking industry that came into our territory. We knew we had to wrap up our guardianship and land management program.
We know, through the coalition, that striking the balance between economic prosperity and land stewardship is very important, so we focus on those two points. We get the direction from our members for the tools that they need to be able to make informed decisions, especially when it comes to major projects.
Going back to what my community has done, and I think we’re leading by example, we have collected data from our water and our air. We do document the changes on the land from the animals. Traditional knowledge is really important to us, which we combine with scientific knowledge.
With UNDRIP, there’s a lot of work to do. Some people interpret it in many ways. As First Nations, we look at it as a tool to advance our mandate and to work with our treaty partners.
One thing that’s really important to me as a First Nation person is that we signed treaties to create peace and promote sharing; it wasn’t a cede and surrender.
I think it’s a really good opportunity for all of us to collaborate, come together and take away the barriers that have been put on us for the last 100 years to be meaningfully involved in our economies.
I believe that First Nations are experts in land management. We have been stripped away from being involved in business. We don’t have the capacity to make business decisions at the rate of business, so we need those tools. That’s where the coalition has come in, to provide that capacity for First Nations.
Can I pass it on to my friend, Jesse McCormick, who is supporting me here today?
Senator Sorensen: Yes, thank you.
Jesse McCormick, Senior Vice President of Research, Innovation, and Legal Affairs, First Nations Major Projects Coalition: Thank you for the question, senator. Jesse McCormick joining you from the unceded territories of the Tseil-Waututh, Musqueam and Squamish Nations.
The United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples represents the minimum standards for the survival, dignity and well-being of Indigenous peoples of the world. It took existing international law and human rights and brought them together in a way that helps to support First Nations and Indigenous peoples to succeed across the globe.
The requirements of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act in the federal context requires consistency with that. I think it would be helpful for the committee to reflect that in your study and to emphasize the opportunity that the declaration provides for First Nations to be effective partners in the development of natural resources and the transition to clean energy sources.
Mr. Buffalo: If I can add one more point, the hardest part through all of this in not only talking about climate change and everything; since I have been appearing at all these Senate hearings, consultation has always been the issue. None of the members of the Indian Resource Council were ever consulted in some of this.
It is really hard. We seek the balance, obviously, as Chief Gale said, finding that balance of protecting the environment but yet taking advantage of opportunities. At the end of the day, it is the Indian Act that is really hampering our way forward.
We do not want to be dependent on the federal government for the rest of our lives. With the natural resources we have in Canada, if we can find some takeaway capacity to help the world not export coal but liquefied natural gas, I think that’s a start to help clean up the planet.
With the declaration, the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, we are moving towards our treaty rights and having our people assert their own jurisdiction in their land. I’m sure Chief Sharleen has her own traditional laws that her people want to protect their land, and that would be amplified.
The unfortunate part through the Indian Resource Council is that we have to deal with a federal regulator that does not regulate. Indian Oil and Gas Canada is probably the worst thing to happen to First Nations. We’re stuck with these abandoned wells. They’re going to be orphaned sooner rather than later. It is a flick of a switch.
Many of these companies that had these wells are long gone. They don’t exist anymore. We’re stuck with the remnants. Meanwhile, through federal transfers the government got all this money from our province, Alberta, through oil and gas and the oil sands as well.
Working together to strive to find that balance to remediate, to seek the economic development opportunities, that’s why I’m here, to ensure that none of the economic development opportunities are taken away. If it’s through UNDRIP, or if it is working together with the federal government, some things have to change down the road.
We have to start working towards getting away from this Indian Act. That’s the biggest thing. Thank you.
Senator Galvez: Thank you so much for recognizing that the legislation, policy environment and framework in Canada is changing. We have mentioned truth and reconciliation. We have mentioned UNDRIP and the net zero 2050. We are all wanting to move in the direction that these policies and legislation are pointing us.
In the Truth and Reconciliation Commission’s final report, there were 94 Calls to Action. We want to transition to clean energy.
I read a recent study called Work and Health Challenges of Indigenous People in Canada, authored by Dr. Quentin Durand-Moreau from the University of Alberta Hospital. He talks about how workers in the natural extraction of oil and gas suffer from inequalities and issues. It goes from health issues, such as hypertension and diabetes, but it also talks about some psychological issues and stresses.
I want to know how these big projects trickle down to increase and improve, in practical terms, the well-being of the workers and the generations. Firstly, in relation to incomes, can you please put a number on the average income and compare it with the rest of Canada so we know how much it has improved? Secondly, can you please comment on exposure to contaminants and improving diets? Third, can you comment on skills training in the preparation of the generations for this new transition to energy? Thank you.
My question is directed first to Ms. Gale and then Mr. Buffalo. Thank you.
Ms. Gale: Thank you for your question.
We all know that there are always challenges when you have new developments coming to our territories.
I have to say that, in Fort Nelson, we have been told that there are a number of different, rare cancers that have been generated in our territory for the last couple decades. That goes for young people to adults.
It’s really hard, too, when you have a major industry and you can’t even get the proper care within your community. I told you we had $12.6 billion leave our community since 1973. You can’t even have a baby here. It would be nice when they’re actually developing in the territory to actually have access to health care services.
The average income for oil and gas workers could be anywhere from an admin assistant at $75,000 up to $210,000. If you’re a CEO — well, I wouldn’t even want to go to those numbers, but let’s just say as an area director, you could make up to $300,000 to $400,000. It varies. It does raise the standard of living in our territory.
On a personal note, I’ve worked at the Fort Nelson Gas Plant for the past 20 years, and it did provide a good livelihood, vacation and benefits to my family. That’s something we want to see over time. We feel if we had equity positions, our people would not just be seasonal workers; they won’t get laid off in the spring. They would have full-time jobs.
Our people do pursue education. We have doctors and lawyers. Many of them don’t come back to our community because they don’t have opportunities here.
There are major challenges when industry comes in, but at the same time, by including Indigenous people when building these projects from the ground up, we can build them so that they are world class and that they do instill best practices. I find when they build these projects without us that we do get left behind. Then our traditional knowledge and our input are not incorporated in the projects.
Mr. Buffalo: Thank you for the question. In support of Chief Gale, I reference the Indian Act. Our communities are stuck in the Indian Act. In that act, when we get a comprehensive funding agreement, there is hardly any money for health care. Even for our people to go and seek better health care, it’s often difficult. If they don’t have the medical benefits that they might get with a job, it’s really hard to get the proper medications to address some of these issues. Every industry out there has their problems with mental health and with the diseases that you’ve talked about — hypertension, diabetes, everything like that. It’s not only oil and gas.
Recently, I attended NAPE, the North American Petroleum Expo, in Houston. Two things I got from that expo are that the world needs oil and gas continuously, and the biggest cause of global debt is transitioning to renewable energy. For First Nations who are looking for an opportunity to get out of poverty, currently, in front of us is oil and gas. To invest in solar panels and wind farms is difficult because we lack investment capital. If you know anything about First Nations and the issues of our people and how we’re forcing the Indian Act, you’ll know that. You’ll know that our land is not bankable, so it’s really difficult to get involved in these multi-billion-dollar investment opportunities. We do need federal or government support to participate.
We do this to make our own money. Maybe then we can address some of these health and social issues that you read about. Jumping from not even participating in a sector which is rampant around our traditional territories into a renewable energy space — it’s unheard of. There are some stops along the way — liquefied natural gas, hydrogen. Then you can find investment in the renewables.
If we’ve learned anything from the country of Germany, it is that we can’t depend on renewable energy. Just recently, I saw that they are going back to coal fire. To my disappointment, we’re still exporting coal from Vancouver.
It doesn’t make sense to me right now, but please understand that when we’re participating in this sector, it’s to help get our people out of poverty. As long as there’s a federal policy in place, such as the Indian Act, we’ll always have to find a unique way. Despite some of the problems and the health issues that you’ve outlined, access to better health care is one way, but we can’t get that all the time. Some of our communities are remote, such as Chief Gale’s community. It’s quite a ways away, as she just told you. You can’t even have a baby in that area.
We have a lot of work to do if we’re serious about making sure that First Nations are true active partners and participants and that the federal government cares about our people. We look at ways to maximize the resources around us. It’s a continuing dialogue and consultation and trying to balance the pros and the cons.
Right now, as mentioned before, members of the Indian Resource Council were never consulted on any of these policies. I look forward to those consultations. Thank you very much.
Mr. Desjarlais: I want to build off the comments and speak to that. It’s really interesting that studies are done in terms of their health impacts on Indigenous workers. We’ve found, first of all, on the salary side — and we’re just actually wrapping up some research — that the oil and gas industry pays about three times more than other industries for Indigenous people. We’re pulling this together to make a campaign on that, but that’s some of the preliminary information.
We’re also finding that this industry is probably at some of the highest levels compared to other industries in terms of equitable and meaningful participation. We see more Indigenous people at depth and with more sophisticated businesses in terms of ownership, management, control and execution of those businesses and business models.
We’re finding those factors, in terms of livelihood, income and deep participation in these industries, are influencing socio-economic outcomes. Indigenous people are becoming more engaged, increasing the outcomes in terms of health and other determinants as well. We’re finding that there’s a tie here in terms of that economic participation. The key is that depth. We’re finding in industry that Indigenous people are participating more meaningfully across that, and there’s a correlation to the socio-economic impact that has cascaded down through communities. Absolutely.
I haven’t really looked into the study, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s found to be consistent across all demographics. If there’s any type of health issue related to any certain thing, I don’t think it would be disproportionate from Indigenous and non-Indigenous. I would be more interested to see it in terms of socio-economic status. That’s what we’re trying to achieve. We’re trying to push and elevate socio-economic status and push for more Indigenous participation in depth. Yes, the oil and gas industry is doing that at faster rates than any other industry.
That’s an important consideration in terms of transition. We talk about clean energy. There are more sustainability aspects that Indigenous people can impart through their value systems: multi-generational, seven generations, longer views, community wealth versus private wealth. Those types of philosophies held by Indigenous people add to resource development projects.
Absolutely, we want to see the least environmental impact and the greatest socio-economic impact from these developments, and Indigenous participation at depth is one of the best ways to do that. It’s one of the best ways to challenge those outcomes and determinants of health we just talked about in terms of poverty, educational outcomes, incarceration help and things like that.
Ms. Gale: Fort Nelson First Nation is showing what really can be done when we do have access to funds with our geothermal facility and the cost of food and inflation. It’s challenging for Northern communities to have access to fresh food. With the geothermal project, there are a lot of spinoff opportunities. We can have 100 greenhouses, and we’re also exploring what is in the brine. There is potential for lithium and other critical minerals to ensure we’re contributing to the clean energy initiative that we’re all trying to meet by 2050. Thank you.
Senator McCallum: Thank you for your presentations.
I wanted to commend the Indian Resource Council, or IRC, for the work they have done in the mitigation of abandoned oil wells and to acknowledge the great stress the organizations have in navigating partnerships with oil and gas and with Canada while at the same time being oppressed First Nations.
When you look at the fracking and the lack of mitigation of oil and gas — and that’s their legal responsibility. You look at climate change and the lack of consultation from both energy and Canada. You look at the Sovereignty Act challenging ownership of natural resources and some of the legislation that we pass, including the one with the greening of the prairies that says that the provinces own natural resources. What are your recommendations to the Government of Canada, and how can the Senate help you to ensure they come to the table to work with First Nations to clean up the rest of the lands but also to develop a resource-sharing component?
How do you find balance in priorities, including violence against women? This is a huge issue in resource extraction and something that’s not talked about. If the violence against women isn’t addressed, then self-determination will never truly proceed.
Mr. Buffalo: Thank you, Senator McCallum. I appreciate your comments. Thank you very much.
Just for everyone’s information, the IRC had approached the federal government in May and advocated for another $300 million to address the abandoned wells here in Alberta. We have also advocated for Saskatchewan and B.C., but they all ran provincially in their own jurisdiction. For Alberta, we asked for another $300 million for the next four years because we anticipate doing another $75 million of work. With the allocation of $113 million that was given, we just scraped the surface. There is environmental contamination that needs to be cleaned up.
To be honest, our First Nation lands aren’t getting any bigger, but our populations are. So access to land and trying to remediate the land is very important, and it’s a high priority. Again, our federal regulator, Indian Oil and Gas Canada, dropped the ball. They do not regulate or help First Nations. They didn’t help us in this scenario, but they really tried to derail it and take it over.
What we have to work toward is continued consultation with the affected First Nations. Don’t just deal with the First Nations that will follow the federal plan. Deal with the nations that have something to lose as well. What we have to work toward — I’ll always say this — is to find a way to get away from the Indian Act and the way our communities are controlled under this act. It does lead to a resource revenue-sharing model, but you have to have willing participants. It’s a long journey. It’s not going to happen next year or in the next four years. It’s continued work and dialogue.
However, I think it’s very important that we still continue to produce our oil and gas. I’m excited to see if we can move toward better hydrogen for not only the city buses but for the transports as well. That’s producing clean energy. If we can export our liquefied natural gas to our allies across the ocean — again, instead of coal — I think we’re helping clean up the planet.
We have to continue down this road. I pay taxes, and we’re seeing higher taxes on our heating bills and at our pumps. If we had the offtake capacity with pipelines to export our resources, maybe the taxpayer isn’t paying the bill. Maybe it’s industry in these infrastructures.
Again, we’re a bit of a ways, and I hope we can continue to have more dialogue with the federal government in these areas where it’s hampering our economic development opportunity in the current state of being under the Indian Act. Thank you.
Ms. Gale: If I may, I think the Fort Nelson First Nation along with the Treaty 8 nations are setting a good example. The Blueberry River court case won a victory in June 2021. It just showed through that court case that every permit and every point of consultation was done with the First Nations. We expressed our concern, but not one of them was denied. They just had a full throttle on our territory.
We’ve been negotiating with the provincial government since 2021, and we have come to an interim consensus agreement where there would be shared decision making on the land. That’s a key component for us to be successful when it comes to development for our nation and for the treaty people that are living on our territories.
I think it’s really important that some of the revenues that are taken from our territories are shared with the communities where these companies are operating. We go to the orphan well program. With the fracking, we were left with a big mess in our backyard while billions of dollars left our territory. Through the federal government program, we did have access to that money. Our lands department has been recognized for the reclamation work that we have done. We’re being asked to speak in the U.S. and across Canada to share our story and to share our practices.
We’re looking forward to these greenhouses because we’ll be able to grow our own native plants and replenish and reclaim our land.
Senator Batters: Thank you to all of our witnesses for being here. I wish we had another hour with you. You’ve been very helpful with a really valuable perspective.
With a skyrocketing carbon tax, a new so-called clean fuel standard coming, major impediments imposed on oil and gas industry growth and draconian federal bills like Bills C-69 and C-48, it certainly seems like the federal government is not comprehending how Indigenous partners like you and your communities can play — and are playing — a huge role in developing oil and gas in Canada in an environmentally sustainable way. After all, you’ve been stewards of the land for so long in the country.
It also sounds like the federal government’s just transition plan would be quite unjust for Indigenous people in Canada, given what you’ve described as the huge job growth and income potential for Indigenous people in the oil and gas industry. When Senator Galvez talks about the potential for psychological issues and stresses, I would say a major impact for those kinds of issues would be losing a high-paying job in one of these industries.
I thought it was also very shocking when Chief Gale talked about how they tried to get a loan for a pipeline project, and the cheapest loan rate they could get was at credit card rates.
My question is to Mr. Buffalo and Mr. Desjarlais. From your perspective, what is the federal government not understanding? If you could make one singular recommendation that we would make to the government when we produce a report on this study, what would that be?
Mr. Buffalo: If I could go first, Mr. Desjarlais. The one thing I do know — and again, going to the North American petroleum expo in Houston — is that the world needs energy in all forms. Canada has valuable oil and gas resources. In Chief Gale’s territory, it’s natural gas. We produce natural gas, and we’re going to get hydrogen from it — nice blue hydrogen. Moving toward that, I think, should be a goal.
Inclusion is not only through ESG — environmental, social and governance — but inclusion with the opportunity. There should be a federal mechanism, a plan, to do what Alberta has done through the Alberta Indigenous Opportunities Corporation and have that loan guarantee backup so the nation can participate not only through jobs but as equity owners. Again, in my view, we have to get rid of this Indian Act, and we have to move toward that resource revenue sharing. What that model is, I don’t know, but the opportunity is there, and the government needs to be willing to talk about that. We can’t just stop oil and gas here in Canada. It doesn’t make sense. Then we have not only social issues but health problems. We have them right now because we are stuck in the Indian Act. It is something we have to move towards. Thank you.
Mr. Desjarlais: To add to that, one message to pass on is certainly, “Nothing for us without us.” Consultation and policy-making have been very paternal, from an Indigenous perspective, so a lot of these things don’t feel they are with us. They don’t really impact or and serve us in those capacities.
The other piece is, Canada needs to understand that it’s taking quite a bit of effort and resources and time to get Indigenous people more meaningfully and equitably and equally participating in the industries. That’s why oil and gas are so important, because we see the greatest rates of equitable participation through ownership but also through participation in jobs and income and capacity opportunities, the depth, the technical and supervisory — stuff like that.
One real issue for Indigenous businesses and workers is they are just starting to get their feet under them, starting to earn great livelihoods and influencing those socio-economic factors in these industries, and then they have to pivot again. The concern is that gap will continue to go back, a river to grow. These types of transitions are incredibly important, but what does that look like? We would be stepping back in terms of influencing the socio-economic outcomes for Indigenous people because we’re already making great strides in these industries. We just need to understand that piece as we figure out a transition plan that is sustainable and useful for a lot of these communities.
My colleagues mentioned the impacts of these industries on their communities. I’ve seen it. I’m part of that community. It’s a considerable impact, and we need to balance that, that aspect and that approach.
Senator Batters: I want to close off by saying to Mr. Desjarlais, thanks so much. I’m a lifelong resident of Saskatchewan. I want to thank you and your community for all that you are doing to help people.
Mr. Desjarlais: My pleasure.
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The Deputy Chair: We will go a little bit over the allotted time.
[English]
I ask the witnesses to be sure to give a short answer, if you are able.
Senator Miville-Dechêne: My colleague referred to how interesting this whole discussion is. My question will be specifically to Chief Gale, and it will refer to her opening statement.
I understand very well from a revenue or dollar point of view, all sources of energy can be equivalent, but from an environmental point of view, all industries, especially oil, do not have the same impact. In that context, how can your coalition adopt a position you describe as industry neutral?
Ms. Gale: As First Nations, it’s really up to the First Nations to decide what kind of industries they want to be a part of. As the First Nations Major Projects Coalition, we take a neutral position. We don’t endorse communities getting involved in a project. They come to us with their BCR, their Band Council Resolution, from their chief and council after they have consulted with their community.
My community is looking at doing many climate change initiative projects, such as repurposing the oil and gas wells for geothermal. We worked in partnership with the municipality to be able to secure the biggest community forest in B.C. We are looking at helping other countries get off coal burning and producing pellets.
This is not only a regional area or a little territory area. As First Nations people, we look globally. How can we help our Indigenous counterparts in other countries get off dirty fuels? I believe, along with Stephen Buffalo, that the oil and gas industry is important. My computer, my clothes, my phone — everything requires oil and gas. But we have to be able to balance those industries with renewable industries. It just goes in line with First Nations being involved in economic development. We’re not just going to deplete all our resources without looking after our people and our land. Our responsibility is for seven generations. We have to make sure that our people have places to go to be able to hunt, fish, trap and collect their medicines, as we move into the future.
It is a balanced approach, and it is really up to the First Nations where they want to be involved, whether that’s an individual nation or a group of nations coming together. For the gas pipeline that I talked about, a group of 20 First Nations came together because they knew how much more powerful they would be if they worked together. We have been set up in those colonial processes where we have been fighting about territory and economics. First Nations have realized that, in order for us to be successful, we need to work with industry. We need to work with government, and we need to work with each other. We are seeing success in that.
One of the precedents that I’m very proud of is in Ontario. Industry is coming to be a part of this conversation. Any of their projects going forward for Hydro One will give 50% equity to the First Nations that are affected by their projects.
These are new ways of doing business with Indigenous communities because, in order for major projects and infrastructure for clean energy initiatives to be successful, they have to have Indigenous consent. They are going to cross Indigenous lands; there is no doubt about it. We have over 600 Indigenous communities across Canada. Many of us are asserting our rights now. We’ll do anything to protect our territories because we are not going to allow people to have access to our resources without our involvement going forward.
Senator Miville-Dechêne: Thank you so much for your answer.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you to all our witnesses from the first panel. We will continue now with the second panel.
We welcome Matthew Foss from the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business and Dale Swampy, President of the National Coalition of Chiefs.
Welcome. Thank you for being with us. You each have five minutes to deliver your opening remarks.
Matthew Foss, Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business: Thank you. Taanishi Matthew Foss dishinihkaashoon.
Hello. My name is Matthew Foss. I am a member of the Métis Nation of Alberta. As Vice-President of Research and Public Policy for the CCAB, the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business, I want to thank you, Madam Chair and all distinguished members of the committee, for the opportunity to provide you with my testimony and to contribute to this important work.
Today, I am speaking to you from my home office, on the lands of Treaty Six people and the Métis.
Since 1984, the CCAB has been committed to the full participation of Indigenous peoples in the Canadian economy. Our work, programs and priorities are backed by data-driven research and support economic reconciliation as a bridge between Indigenous and non-Indigenous businesses in Canada. Creating an economic base is critical to achieving the outcomes of the NIES, the National Indigenous Economic Strategy, and to fulfill the recommendations that exist in the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples. The NIES contains 107 calls to economic prosperity, and more than a third of these directly tie to energy, the environment and natural resources.
Prior to my work at CCAB, I led the analytical work on energy for the Alberta government for over a decade. I am very much an expert on the climate and resource challenges that our globe faces having provided speeches domestically and internationally to audiences such as the International Energy Agency and the International Energy Forum.
Climate change is a serious matter. Indigenous communities are some of the most heavily impacted communities by changes to our climate. Traditional ways of living are at risk. Wise adaptation is required. Traditional knowledge is required, as is the wisdom of elders and knowledge keepers.
I have two points to emphasize today in my remarks. The Canadian government must avoid aggravating the harm being done by climate change by stripping the ability of Indigenous rights holders to use their traditional knowledge, wisdom and self-governance to determine what is best for their traditional lands and communities. The Canadian government must support Indigenous communities with the financial mechanisms to ensure that they can participate as equity partners in resource development projects.
Energy security and energy transition are also critical issues. Both traditional energy resources and the critical metals and minerals that are required to electrify the energy system are needed to reduce emissions both here and abroad. The energy transition requires resources. These resources come from the traditional territories of First Nations, Inuit and Métis communities.
Canada’s reputation as a place to do business requires that Canada be a place where investment can occur and development is possible. This requires that Canada respect the rights of Indigenous people, communities and nations to self-determine the appropriate development.
Indigenous communities must appropriately share in the economic value of resources being developed on their traditional lands to ensure investment stability and Canada’s reputation internationally. Canada’s reputation requires that Indigenous decision-making is relied upon to determine the appropriate safeguards to the environment.
Colonial policies and development have harmed Indigenous communities and interrupted traditional ways of living. It is a continuation of colonialism to deny Indigenous communities the opportunity to advance their own interests through one of the few mechanisms that remains: responsible resource development.
Canada’s economy has been built on trillions of dollars of resource development while most Indigenous communities remain in poverty.
Projects like the export of liquefied natural gas represent historic opportunities to transform Indigenous communities from poverty to self-reliance, as is being shown in the Haisla Nation. Major mining projects to extract lithium, nickel, copper, rare earths and other minerals across Canada offer the same transformational opportunities.
The billions of dollars of investment and revenue that are generated from these major resource development projects represent a future of empowerment. The opportunities for education, for well-paying jobs and infrastructure like clean water combine well with the opportunity to reduce global emissions. This removes poverty and creates self-respect.
These projects have consequences, and who better to safeguard against the negative impacts than properly resourced Indigenous knowledge keepers who have had this responsibility since time immemorial?
Some communities have explicitly rejected resource development, as is their right, based on their understanding of their communities and the impacts that development will have.
Stripping Indigenous communities from the decision-making with respect to responsible natural resource development is tantamount to a new round of colonialism.
Failure to resource Indigenous communities to participate as equity owners and partners in these projects represents a continuation of the marginalization of Indigenous peoples and separation from the wealth that exists within their traditional lands and perpetuates the cycle of abuse and poverty.
Marsee.
The Deputy Chair: Mr. Swampy.
Dale Swampy, President, National Coalition of Chiefs: Good morning. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today.
I would like to acknowledge that I am speaking to you from Calgary, Alberta, the traditional territory of the Treaty 7 First Nations and the Blackfoot Confederacy, which includes the Siksika, Piikani, and Kainai First Nations.
Treaty 7 also includes the Tsuut’ina First Nation, and the Stoney Nakoda Nation which includes the Chiniki, Bearspaw, and Good Stoney First Nations.
My name is Dale Swampy. I am a member of the Samson Cree Nation and the President of the National Coalition of Chiefs, a coalition of industry-supportive chiefs from across Canada.
Our mandate is to defeat on-reserve poverty. We work to establish mutually beneficial agreements between First Nations and the natural resource industry partners in an effort to enhance the economic prosperity of our on-reserve communities across Canada.
Our First Nation communities have been left out of Canada’s wealth and prosperity for centuries. The National Coalition of Chiefs is working towards improving our participation and inclusion in Canada’s economy through partnerships with Canada’s largest industry, the natural resource industry.
We believe that Canada’s oil and gas industry is the most technologically advanced industry in the world and should be applauded and not demonized, as the federal government is doing now with its crippling legislation.
Canada leads the world in environmental protection and advancements in clean technology. For this reason, the NCC is hosting the NCC Clean Energy Summit in Calgary this week. We are showcasing new clean energy projects, including Pathways Alliance. We will also showcase some of the current 146 renewable projects being developed in Alberta, which is more than all of the other provinces in Canada combined. We will also showcase Canada’s new state-of-the-art LNG terminals in northwestern B.C., and mining companies will showcase their precious metals mining projects for the clean energy transition.
Canada’s oil and gas industry is by far more relevant today than it has ever been. Our communities are involved in new and important oil and gas initiatives. We are talking about billions of dollars in revenue that we are earning, and it pays for housing and cultural programs. It supports our future by fighting poverty on our reservations.
Canada’s oil and gas industry is a world leader in safe, reliable and sustainable oil and gas production. We have the world’s best and most efficient energy systems that are both safe and environmentally friendly. The emissions produced in the production cycle are the lowest on this planet and are getting better and better as we speak. The world is starving for Canadian oil and gas.
Our government needs to realize that without a sustainable transition to clean energy, we are going to jeopardize our economy and create an energy crisis that may take decades to fix. We need to trust our oil and gas industry and help lead this transition. We have the expertise to make it happen and, with the help of workers and professionals in the oil and gas industry, we can make the transition less harmful to our economy and to our standard of living.
Like Canada’s oil and gas industry, First Nation communities want to become part of this transition. We want to lead this transition in partnership with the most technologically advanced industry in the world. Our communities are working with LNG Canada and TC Energy to build one of the largest LNG ports in the world.
We are working with other oil and gas companies to develop the First Nations-led Woodfibre LNG project and Cedar LNG. We are working with the six largest oil sands companies to develop the Pathways Alliance projects which will create one of the largest CCUS — carbon capture, utilization and storage — projects in the world. All of these projects, when completed, will significantly reduce Canada’s emissions and help us obtain the emissions targets for 2030 and 2050.
We recognize the need for Canada’s natural gas around the world. The rest of the world recognizes natural gas as a commodity that can replace other countries’ use of coal for energy production and significantly reduce worldwide emissions. Countries around the world recognize natural gas as a green energy source. Why can’t our federal government accept this reality?
Canada’s oil and gas industry is unique. It has the best record today for Indigenous engagement and consultation. It works hard to ensure that First Nation communities are included in opportunities in employment, business contracting, community investments and equity ownership.
There is no country in the world that comes close to what our oil and gas industry has accomplished, and through the ESG guidelines that all companies are adhering to, Indigenous inclusion in major oil and gas developments has become a priority in achieving social acceptance.
We have to understand and appreciate that Canada’s oil and gas industry is run by Canadians. Canada is the best place to live in the world. Canadians are the best people in the world. Canadians are concerned about this country’s land and resources. When you see the kind of effort and resources that Canadians put towards safety, integrity and environmental protection, you will do whatever you can to support this industry.
If you decide to ruin this industry, you are turning your back on decades of technological advancements in industry, and you are turning your back on well-educated, experienced and hardworking Canadians. Our First Nation communities understand this. We are working hard to support Canada’s oil and gas industry.
We are working hard to ensure that the new UNDRIP legislation ensures that industry has a fair regulatory regime that clearly defines what constitutes adequate First Nation engagement and consultation; what communities are impacted from project development and operations; what Indigenous inclusion means as it relates to First Nation employment, community investment, contracting and equity ownership.
Without First Nation involvement in the clean energy transition, and without the full inclusion of our oil and gas industry, any legislation, policy or long-term planning will fail.
We all know but are afraid to acknowledge that the need for oil and gas will continue to rise. The use of oil- and gas-generated power systems around this world will continue for many decades to come. Unless we understand and appreciate this reality, we are going to fall deeper and deeper into an energy crisis that is going to affect every Canadian across this country. It is going to create unmanageably high utility costs that will adversely affect the impoverished, which means that our on-reserve impoverished will suffer the most.
Let’s move towards a more sustainable energy transition. Let’s not put the cart before the horse by destroying an industry without first having an adequate and sustainable green and clean energy to replace it. Let’s support our fellow Canadian oil and gas workers and the 14,000 self-identified First Nation workers in this industry. Let’s make well-informed decisions on energy policy that make sense for the economy and the well-being of all Canadians, including First Nations. Thank you.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator Sorensen: Thanks very much. Welcome to our witnesses. I’m a senator from Alberta, so I’m delighted to see you both here.
I want to talk a little about transition from fossil fuel-based energy. During this study, we have heard a lot about training employees to transition away from fossil fuel-based energy jobs. Is there a risk of Indigenous energy workers being left behind, or are there training opportunities proactively being offered to Indigenous employees currently? If so, maybe you can elaborate on what that looks like.
Mr. Swampy: First of all, I have to say that the transition has to include the oil and gas industry. They are the most technologically advanced industry in the country — some would say the world. That includes those 14,000 self-identified Indigenous workers in that industry. If you look at the renewable projects across this country, these figures are available. All you have to do is call any union in this country. The unions have incredible databases on what projects are coming because they have to keep on top of it to get their employees employed in these new projects. They will tell you there are 146 new renewable projects coming up in Alberta. That is more than double all the other provinces combined. Why is this? It’s because our oil and gas industry has the technological capacity to be able to develop these types of industry projects, renewable projects. They have got the scientists to be able to study and research and try to improve renewable projects in this country.
I think it has to be the oil and gas industry that leads this. The reason I say this is that as a First Nation group, we have seen so many carpetbaggers and new companies coming up and saying they can build a solar plant, wind plant, battery plant, CCUS project or non-emissions gas power plant. But these are individuals who don’t have the experience, knowledge or capacity like the Canadian oil and gas industry has. If you convince any one of the six oil sands companies or any one of the midstream companies like PC Energy or Enbridge, they are going to tell you that they could do this tomorrow if you wanted. If you want something that is sustainable, makes sense and has economic viability, we can build it today, and we can build it fast. All we need is the technology to ensure that the green energy transition actually replaces the oil and gas industry. Right now, we don’t have that. We have battery systems that are being developed for the wind and solar power facilities so that they are no longer intermittent power sources. But right now, those battery sources make those types of projects almost five, six or seven times more expensive than a gas-powered project, and it doesn’t make sense right now.
We always think that our federal representatives, our elected officials, are there to make informed decisions on our behalf. I just don’t see an informed decision-making process in this system right now because we are moving into a just transition, which is forcing an industry such as ours to develop an emissions-reduction plan in the short term and to transition into a green energy environment that doesn’t exist yet.
Senator Sorensen: Thank you for that response. I just want to mention that I agree with you wholeheartedly that Canada’s oil and gas industry needs to lead our way to clean energy. I appreciate that you brought up the Pathways Alliance initiative, which, of course, we are very proud of in Alberta.
Mr. Foss, did you have anything to add?
Mr. Foss: I have a few comments about the fact that, obviously, Indigenous youth and workers lag behind other Canadians with respect to getting access to the training and skills they require. This is a legacy issue that is going to take some time to overcome. Continued efforts to help promote educational resources for Indigenous youth and Indigenous workers is going to be critical. As Mr. Swampy said, the training and skills development needed for the new transition to renewables is going to require the continuation of existing skills. A transition into a green economy is going to require extraction of resources, and the extraction of resources uses largely similar skills to what we are already employing in the traditional industries within Canada.
Senator Galvez: Thank you very much for being here and answering our questions.
I would like to ask both of you to help me in my own reflection about moving forward. We have heard from you and from the previous panel that over all these years since the creation of Canada, there has been a prevailing colonization approach: cease and surrender and predatory natural resource extraction in the mining, oil and gas and forestry sectors. That brings us to this point in Canada but also on the planet of ubiquitous pollution, inequity, inequality and the need to move to a different model.
I would like you to tell me how your model, the one you plan for the future, will be different than the ongoing model in terms of governance, economics, social fabric and protecting the environment. How are we going to get a different output if we continue using the same approach?
Thank you.
Mr. Foss: Your question and comments are very much on point that we need a new system. We absolutely need to utilize traditional knowledge and traditional ways and empower Indigenous communities to be the ones to lead this. Our communities have been safeguarding Turtle Island since time immemorial. We have the knowledge and the respect for the environment. It is important that Canada effectively resources capacity-building for these communities to be able to make wise decisions. It is important that Canada effectively funds equity participation such that Indigenous communities are the ones that are decision makers with respect to projects.
I don’t think any of us really knows what that future energy system is going to look like 50 or 100 years from now. But what we do know is that there is a path to getting there, and that path is going to require smart decision making. It is also going to require tremendous resource development and tremendous disturbance of our lands. That’s going to have to be done carefully with consideration for Indigenous ways and the ability for Indigenous communities to be decision makers with respect to how that proceeds and what safeguards are in place.
Mr. Swampy: We don’t believe we have the kinds of pollution and social problems you talk about today. I think the oil and gas sector has moved forward incredibly to accommodate and do their best for environmental protection and so forth.
The transition, we believe, has to include the expertise that we now know exists in the oil and gas sector to be able to make a clean and sustainable transition. Until then, we have to look at increasing LNG development, exports and plants to become our source of power until the green energy industry suits up to be able to be sustainable and take over this type of system.
The only way that we’re going to be able to do that right now and still reduce emissions is to be able to fund CCUS projects. Right now, CCUS projects are given green credits across the world, except in Canada. Until we get green credits and subsidization from the government, we’re not going to be able to develop these at efficient rates.
The Pathways Alliance project is something that the Treaty 6 and Treaty 8 First Nations are working hard to become a part of. We believe it’s going to be an incredible project for us that will increase our ability to be employed and take part in the prosperity of this country for the next 30 or 40 years. This is a huge project, one of the biggest in the world. It’s going to make Alberta able to meet 2030 emission goals as well as 2050 emission goals. By 2050, we’re hoping that the green energy industry will have the expertise and technology to be able to take over oil and gas. Until then, I don’t see anything changing for the next few decades. We have to be able to do that.
In terms of social acceptance, the National Coalition of Chiefs have developed a five-step program to be able to identify, through UNDRIP legislation, FPIC: free, prior and informed consent. We want a process, and we’re working with the action plan committee right now to develop a process that will clearly identify what you need as proponents to be able to develop these types of natural resource projects. That includes the first one, which is defining adequate consultation. That definition has to be created within the regional group of chiefs who are impacted from the development that happens. Then we have to identify what informed consent is. Informed consent is important for First Nations. Just like you, being elected, you need to make informed consent. Just like you, I hope you’re asking technical experts to be able to advise you on certain issues and get both sides of the story rather than just the liberal side. You need the conservative side. You need the left wing and the right wing. You need the environmental parties’ positions. And you make a decision based on what you think is most applicable and doable. That’s what we need for the second term.
The third one has to do with employment. We don’t want a best-effort type of situation. We want employment for our First Nations people in poverty on reserve. Sixty per cent of our people are on welfare right now. Twenty billion dollars is spent in taxpayer money funding this social welfare juggernaut. We have to get rid of that. That’s why we have all the social issues that we have today, such as teenage suicides, alcohol and drug abuse, missing and murdered women — racism, for that matter, comes from people in poverty. People in poverty are not well respected. We need to get our family structure back, and we believe that’s doable. We have a plan called the social welfare employment plan. It has been implemented in two different cases in Alberta and has shown success. We want to promote that to the federal government as well.
The fourth is contracting. We want to be able to move ourselves out of the First Nations reserves and be able to contract on these large developments going on. It’s nothing new. The 13 bills of congress in Alaska gave 50% initially to all development within the oil and gas sector and other natural resource development to First Nations in that region, and it’s proven successful. Those 13 corporations are large money makers and have brought those communities into prosperity.
Equity is important. Unless it’s a First Nation-led project, we want to be guaranteed that we’re going to get equity in these projects. Like I said, it’s not the first time. You can see LNG’s pipeline, Coastal GasLink, agreeing to sell part of that project to First Nations. We want it up front and centre. We want it before the project gets built and before it goes into the regulatory process so we can get not only ownership, but take on the risk, which means we take on the risk of environmental protection. We ensure that there are monitors there 24/7 for 30 years of the operation or longer, if it goes longer.
It’s those types of things that is we want to develop. We’ve studied this and we’ve been in business now for almost seven years. Our chiefs are moving forward towards developing real partnerships, and we think pathways and alliance is the first step.
Senator Batters: Thanks to both of our witnesses for being here with us today and helping us understand these important perspectives on this topic.
Mr. Swampy, I have a couple of questions for you. I’ll probably have a limited time, so I’d really appreciate a chance to try to get to both of them.
First of all, you’ve done a lot of work to tackle on-reserve poverty. You’ve raised some of the issues that you were dealing with in your last answer. Recently, you had an article in the Financial Post stating that the federal government’s climate policy could be prolonging Indigenous poverty. Could you explain that further? In your view, what could the government be doing to address the on-reserve poverty crisis?
Mr. Swampy: First of all, our position on climate change or just transition, or whatever you want to call it, is that it is going to hurt the oil and gas industry, and what hurts the oil and gas industry is going to hurt First Nations. The oil and gas industry is moving up towards ESG guidelines that create an important facet of oil and gas development, which is that First Nation involvement, participation and inclusion have to be part of the project. That’s important. You see that type of development going on with LNG Canada, Woodfibre LNG, Cedar LNG, uranium mining groups in northwestern Saskatchewan, Ring of Fire groups in northern Ontario and Maritimes and New Brunswick’s advancement of their oil and gas sector. You see that involvement. The chiefs and councils, instead of saying what they’ve said in the past when people come across their desk to say, “Chief, I need a job. I need money. I need a car,” they can turn to these oil and gas companies and say, “Let’s get some employment programs going.”
In terms of on-reserve poverty and our social welfare program, we have two situations that have worked well. We take the example of the Fort McKay First Nation, one of the richest communities in North America. They have a median household income of almost $144,000. It’s incredible. Young children are growing up to look at the oil sands industry and think to themselves, if I get a Grade 12 education, I’ll be able to make $100,000 with these oil sands companies. You get a lot of low attrition rates in that community because young people grow up and they know that they can make that kind of money in their community that they can’t make in any other part of this country.
It didn’t come overnight. In 1976, when the oil sands started to really develop, they committed themselves to give extra consideration to Fort McKay because it was right in the middle of the oil sands development. When people in Fort McKay started their jobs, it was hard to transition from a social welfare society to a working environment. Suncor understood this. Instead of blacklisting people who couldn’t do the work the first time, they embraced them with open arms and they came back until we got to the point where they have 100% employment.
That’s what we need for the rest of industry and government: To give us extra consideration. I don’t mean cheques. I don’t mean writing out cheques the way Trudeau does. We need extra consideration to be given to big corporations like the Suncors of this country to pay for the retention costs that it’s going to take to transition our people from on reserve to working environments.
It’s going to take time. We have to commit ourselves to be able to do that. If Canadians knew about the problems that we face on reserve, if they took time to visit a reserve, they would see the kind of situation we’re in, and they would support this kind of transition program. I think it’s important.
We need to educate our Canadian population about First Nations so they can suit up and instead of sending their money overseas to a Third World country, they can spend their time and resources on First Nations within our own community.
Senator Miville-Dechêne: Thank you for being here.
I would like to hear your thoughts on a matter that is pretty delicate. Having each Aboriginal community make its own decisions in terms of energy development is at the heart of decolonization and UNDRIP, whatever those decisions are. However, we have seen it with Conference of the Parties, or COP, sessions that global objectives are necessary to save the planet.
Should there be a national strategy by First Nations and Inuit people in Canada to fight climate change?
Mr. Swampy: Yes, I believe there should be.
We’ve been in a situation where we’ve had to acknowledge the fact that we are developing our oil and gas industry with high emissions. We’re an industry, in Alberta especially, that is run by Canadians. Suncor is the biggest corporation in Canada, but they are run by Canadians. Canadians are the best people in the world. Canadians are concerned about their environments. Canadians are outdoors people. They know the importance of the water and the land.
As Canadians, we can get our technological experts together, and we can work with First Nations to support a clean energy transition that’s sustainable and doesn’t significantly increase the costs for energy.
Like I said before, we’re part of the impoverished in this country. When high-energy utility costs come in, it’s not just production facilities that we lose; we lose our own people because they can’t afford to heat their homes.
This is a cold country. We have to take that into consideration as well. We can’t, willy-nilly, transition into a green energy environment just because the rest of the world tells us we need to. We need a sustainable model that we can utilize. I think the Pathways Alliance is a sustainable model to be able to take that carbon and sequester it in the earth until such a time as we get the technological expertise that gives us sustainable energy and energy at a cost that our people can afford.
That’s important. First Nations have to be part of the transition model. They have to provide inputs. I think you’re going to see a lot of positive things if you get our First Nations technical expertise in there as well.
Senator Miville-Dechêne: I don’t know if Mr. Foss has anything to add to this difficult choice between decentralization of decisions and a global strategy to fight climate change.
Mr. Foss: I have a few things to add.
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly that a national strategy for Indigenous communities and nations needs to be in place, but it needs to be one that is done with full consultation. It has to be one that is done jointly with Indigenous peoples such that it is their strategy and not a strategy imposed upon Indigenous communities by non-Indigenous Canadians.
As Dale mentioned, there are so many challenges with respect to being in rural and remote locations in cold climates that require secure, reliable energy. The opportunities to develop those resources are there. As Canada and the globe transition from oil and gas, hydrocarbon fuels into a future that uses other forms of energy, again, it will be the natural resources — minerals, metals and that — that are extracted from Indigenous lands that are going to fuel a future economy as well.
It must be Indigenous-led with respect to how Canada is involved with respect to its international commitments.
It’s very disappointing, to date, that Canada has been out negotiating internationally on how it will respond to the climate crisis without having Indigenous voices at that table to help define that strategy for Canada.
Senator McCallum: Thank you for your presentations.
I want to go back to the issue of defeating on-reserve poverty. Before I ask the question, I want to make the comment that the federal bills that we pass, including Bill C-69, were there to alleviate destruction to Indigenous lives and lands, and provinces have the ability to bypass those bills and continue destruction.
When we look at the Canadian Environmental Protection Act and how, even with that bill in place, tailings ponds increased by 300%, I understand why the bills are put in place.
When we look at alleviating on-reserve poverty, how are the effects of social determinants of health, like intimate partner violence, increases in suicide and gangs and drugs, addressed alongside economic development? Violence against lands and women have always existed simultaneously with colonialism, and colonialism includes resource extraction.
How are those social determinants of health addressed simultaneously with economic development?
I was glad to hear that you have a social welfare plan. How does it exist within the community and then outside of it, because those two would have different scenarios?
I also just want to make the comment that making money doesn’t make these social ills disappear. Working with Indigenous people on Indigenous lands, money was never the sole — It didn’t accomplish everything that it should.
Thank you to both speakers.
Mr. Swampy: Thank you, senator.
One thing that we know as a group of leaders in First Nation communities is that the social welfare aspect within our communities is something that is almost a class structure. Probably 30% or 40% of our communities have well-developed family structures that support one another and get away from domestic violence, alcohol and drug abuse, and so forth.
When our band first started our education trust fund, we thought we would be able to whittle away at the social welfare society we had in our community. Although it enhanced 30% of the community members who had well-developed families and children who went to school and so forth — we actually became one of the highest per capita in terms of post-secondary education degrees — at the same time, it didn’t affect our social welfare society. It didn’t because most of the people there are grown up single family members, single-family women, men at the age of 40 who have never had a full-time job in their life; their ability, skills and education were limited. So we had to develop not upgrading programs but jobs that they could easily get trained into, like meat-packing plants, modular homes factories, greenhouses and so forth.
Our people were starving for this. They wanted respect back. They wanted respect from their children and community, and it didn’t matter how much it paid. It was minimum wage, at best, but they wanted to be able to work and be a contributing part of their community and get the structure back so their lifestyle changes, they’re up at 6:00 in the morning like everybody else and their children are able to go to school. It’s important for us to be able to get in that transition.
But the retention costs to be able to transition our people from that society to a working society is going to cost money. Our people, we noticed, don’t always succeed. One of the social welfare projects we had only had a 33% success rate, but we thought that was a success. That meant that 33 families were actually moving off the reserve, doing the kind of work that they could do and excel in and increase their career opportunities. They were able to have their children go to school on a regular basis so the children could take advantage of our education trusts; they could get bursaries and awards for passing high school, post-secondary education or getting a master’s or PhD degree and so forth.
We need that extra consideration, and I think that’s important. The oil and gas industry is the biggest contributor in that. Although the oil and gas industry, as you say, was part of the bad things that happened with both the federal government and industry towards First Nations, it is now a good part. Cenovus donated $50 million for social housing programs for six communities in Fort McMurray. That happens nowhere else in this world. We need that extra consideration and those big companies to come up front and centre and be able to help us.
Mr. Foss: I think the challenges around poverty and the social and environmental challenges that have come with resource development — and more than resource development: the marginalization of Indigenous people throughout Canada’s history as a nation — are overcome by returning to Indigenous self-governance and the re-establishment of Indigenous cultures. This comes through, as Dale mentioned, the opportunities to have some of this wealth get generated, actual partnerships in projects and the ability to lead. These opportunities are going to be transformational. The opportunities to build new habits and routines and re-establish those of our ancestors are going to be the ones that bring us out of the challenges of the current cycles of poverty that exist. Resource development is critical to that.
Senator Anderson: Thank you to both of the witnesses. My question is to Mr. Foss. The 2022 National Indigenous Economic Strategy for Canada and the 107 recommendations are built around four key sectors: people, land, infrastructure and finance.
When you start at a clear disadvantage in policies that hinder Indigenous people’s basic needs, such as health, education, dental, food security, housing and access to clean water, how do you see this strategy addresses and fits with Canada’s own strategy to achieve engagement, involvement and inclusion in economic growth and development and yet, at the same time, address climate concerns? Thank you.
Mr. Foss: There are obviously interconnections that exist within these strategies, but fundamental is to provide Indigenous communities with the resources — primarily, some of that will be economic resources — such that they can self-determine, so they can have true self-determination. The 107 recommendations in the NIES are all about establishing the tools and mechanisms for self-determination within Indigenous communities.
It’s incumbent upon the rest of Canada to be supportive of this, to actually resource effectively with injections of capital, training and actual funding to enable the institutions, the Indigenous-led institutions, that are going to be required to meaningfully participate in a future economy.
Let me just leave it there, that it’s through opportunity that Indigenous communities will find prosperity and that opportunity comes from things like resource development across our nation.
Senator Anderson: If I can just ask a follow-up. It’s great to have a strategy. I’m sure you know we have lots of strategies.
I would like to know, how do you ensure that Canada is supportive of your strategy? How do you hold them to account to ensure that there are actions that are followed through on your strategy?
Mr. Foss: I think the 107 calls to prosperity exist, as do the Calls to Action of the final report of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and as came out of so many of these types of initiatives before. It really is an obligation of the Canadian government to actually track and report on its efforts towards measurable things it can do with respect to ensuring procurement happens, Indigenous procurement set asides, ensuring there is adequate funding put into Indigenous institutions, education and infrastructure and that there’s actual progress into ensuring that consultation actually happens to ensure that things like Canada’s commitment to reducing emissions don’t get made on an international stage without having Indigenous voices help craft what happens or how Canada meets that.
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The Deputy Chair: Thank you. I’d like to thank all the witnesses who participated in our meeting this morning. I declare this meeting adjourned. Thank you very much.