THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES AND OCEANS
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Thursday, February 8, 2024
The Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans met this day at 9:01 a.m. [ET] to study the federal government’s current and evolving policy framework for managing Canada’s fisheries and oceans including maritime safety; and, examine and report on Canada’s seal populations and their effect on Canada’s fisheries.
Senator Fabian Manning (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Good morning, everybody. My name is Fabian Manning. I am a senator from Newfoundland and Labrador. I have the pleasure of chairing this committee this morning.
Today, we are conducting a meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.
Should any technical challenges arise, particularly in relation to interpretation, please signal this to the chair or the clerk and we will work to resolve the issue.
Before we begin, I would like to take a few moments to allow the members of the committee to introduce themselves.
Senator Busson: Bev Busson, British Columbia. Welcome.
Senator C. Deacon: Colin Deacon, Nova Scotia. Welcome, minister.
Senator Petten: Iris Petten, Newfoundland and Labrador. Good morning.
Senator Cuzner: Rodger Cuzner, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. Good to see you again, minister.
Senator Francis: Senator Francis from Epekwitk, Prince Edward Island. Good morning.
Senator Duncan: Pat Duncan, Yukon. Good morning, minister.
Senator Ravalia: Mohamed Ravalia, Newfoundland and Labrador. Good morning to the minister and officials.
Senator Cordy: Jane Cordy, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. Good morning, minister, welcome.
The Chair: Thank you, senators. Before we begin, since this is my first meeting back, as I’ve been away for a while, I want to welcome Senator Cuzner as a member of our committee; delighted to have him here. We go back to 1980 and 1981 in Fort McMurray, so there are a lot of stories that we won’t share here. Not for TV.
On October 4, 2022, the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans was authorized to examine and report on Canada’s seal populations and their effect on Canada’s fisheries.
Today, under this mandate, as well as the under the general mandate of the committee, the committee will be hearing from the following witnesses:
The Honourable Diane Lebouthillier, Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard; Annette Gibbons, Deputy Minister of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans; and Mario Pelletier, Commissioner of the Canadian Coast Guard.
On behalf of the members of the committee, I thank you for being here today. I understand that the minister will be delivering some opening remarks. Following your presentation, minister, I am sure members of the committee will have some questions for you.
Minister, you have the floor.
[Translation]
Hon. Diane Lebouthillier, P.C., M.P., Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good morning. I’m glad to be joining you today. Before I get started, I want to say that I am thinking of the people of Nova Scotia today with the recent storm that hit Cape Breton. The Coast Guard is pleased to be able to help the people of Nova Scotia.
I want to recognize that we are gathered today on the traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.
I am delighted to be meeting with you to discuss my mandate and some of my priorities as the Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard.
I want to point out that 2024 marks the 25th anniversary of the Marshall decisions. I want to reiterate the government’s ongoing commitment to the rights of Indigenous harvesters and communities to fish for food, social and ceremonial purposes, as well as their right to fish in pursuit of a moderate livelihood. The path to reconciliation is long and filled with difficult and emotional conversations. It is a path we walk together.
With that in mind, I would like to thank the committee for its ongoing work in this area, especially its report Peace on the Water, which remains an important tool for those of us walking the shared path of reconciliation. My department will continue to work closely with the treaty nations in order to strengthen their right to pursue a moderate livelihood and, as much as possible, to realize their vision and interests.
I want to share two other key priorities that will help us chart the way forward in the years ahead.
First, Mr. Chair, our government heard what the fishing industry and other stakeholders said regarding the need for scientific evidence to better understand Atlantic seal populations and their role in our ecosystems. We also heard their concerns about the impact seals have on fish stocks. It will probably come as no surprise to most of you that I am a strong supporter of a safe, humane and sustainable seal hunt.
[English]
Not only do seals eat the bread and butter of our fish harvesters, they are a source of excellent fuel, meat and other products that we as a nation should be focused on developing for international export markets.
[Translation]
To that end, at the beginning of the year, I announced additional funding for seal science projects to study seal populations and habitats, as well as food ecosystems. This will enhance our understanding, which is the first step in developing an economic strategy. I recently spoke with the U.S. and Japanese ambassadors regarding the economic opportunities that a seal product trade could potentially open up. We are continuing to work with Indigenous stakeholders, business and trade experts, and members of the international community to unlock the future economic potential of this sector and chart a way forward.
Second, as you know, Mr. Chair, ensuring safe and accessible waters is a priority for our government. The Canadian Coast Guard is a world leader in the delivery of marine services such as icebreaking in polar waters, and plays an essential role in search and rescue missions and the protection of Canadian waters.
Our government continues to make significant investments in the Canadian Coast Guard to ensure that the employees of this proud organization have the equipment they need to do their jobs. In recent years, 16 search and rescue lifeboats, 3 science vessels and 2 survey and sounding vessels have been delivered and are now part of the Coast Guard fleet. We also announced the addition of 61 new small vessels in the coming years, as well as 27 larger vessels, including many icebreakers, multi-purpose vessels and Arctic and offshore patrol vessels. These vessels will help keep our waters safe for mariners across the country and contribute to a better understanding of our changing oceans.
As you know, Mr. Chair, opening and closing dates for fishing seasons usually go hand in hand with safety on the water. A few years ago, two crew members died when the fishing vessel Tyhawk capsized and the crew found themselves in frigid waters. Before I go on, I want to extend my deepest condolences to their families and the surviving crew members of the fishing vessel Tyhawk.
As someone who lives in a coastal community, I am all too familiar with the pain and suffering of losing people in this way and the time it takes to heal.
The Tyhawk was fishing in an area that had opened three weeks earlier that year. I recognize that the decision to open the area earlier has been criticized. Fisheries and Oceans Canada received the Transportation Safety Board’s report on the incident involving the Tyhawk and is taking it very seriously. We are going to take the time needed to review it and decide on the next steps. Rest assured, Mr. Chair, that decisions to open and close fishing areas are always carefully considered. They are based on the recommendations of local committees and the advice of other federal departments. That practice will continue, to ensure all factors are taken into account.
In closing, Mr. Chair, our government is committed to preserving the independence of hard-working inshore licence holders in Eastern Canada and making sure that the economic benefits stay in their communities.
I am confident that, by working with all of the stakeholders in the sector, we will be able to better protect Canada’s oceans, ecosystems and marine habitats, develop the ocean economy, keep mariners safe, and advance reconciliation with Indigenous peoples.
Thank you. I would be happy to answer the committee’s questions.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you, minister.
Before I go to the questions, I want to welcome Senator Ataullahjan and Senator McPhedran, who have joined us.
Also, minister, we had a recent trip to Newfoundland and Labrador. We met with many people involving in the sealing industry, and we had very positive feedback from that. I wanted to let you know that we are pleased to have someone in the position of Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard who knows full well the impact of the sealing industry to our country.
Senator Francis: Thank you, minister, for joining us this morning.
The witnesses who appeared in front of this committee between March 30 and June 1, 2023, found the government response to the report titled Peace on the Water: Advancing the Full Implementation of Mi’kmaq, Wolastoqiyik and Peskotomuhkati Rights-Based Fisheries was discouraging and described it as insufficient, very disappointing and basically saying a whole lot without saying anything at all. What progress, if any, have you made since your appointment to actually advance the full Mi’kmaq, Wolastoqiyik and Peskotomuhkati rights-based fisheries?
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: Thank you for your question, senator.
I have to tell you that I, too, am very concerned by the situation in the waters of Eastern Canada. Since arriving at the department in September, I have seen how challenging it can be for Indigenous communities with fishing rights and non‑Indigenous communities to coexist.
A lot of work needs to be done. Education is needed to reassure people in the fishing sector. I can tell you that I find the misinformation going around very concerning, not to mention certain fears that are completely unwarranted, in my view.
We should be able to move things forward. I’m going to ask the deputy minister to give you more information on what is currently being done.
[English]
Annette Gibbons, Deputy Minister of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans: Just to be concrete — and I think some of these numbers are known — but there has been a total of $630 million spent on moderate livelihood since 2000 for access, training, boats, purchase of gear and vessels.
Under the mandate of the last few years, we have been reaching rights reconciliation agreements with communities, so we have a number of those in place. Also we have since 2001, I believe, advanced on moderate livelihood fishing plans, which are understandings, not agreements, that give more flexibility to communities and, in the same vein, give them access to licences, money to buy gear and vessels.
Over the last year, we’ve continued to make progress on the acquisition of licences, for example. We’ve recently bought licences in a couple of communities, and we continue. We have a lot of base programming for access and participation in science, so we continue to make funding available to communities for those activities as well.
Senator Francis: Given your stated commitment to reconciliation, can you give us your commitment that you will be tabling legislation separate from the Fisheries Act to fully implement the rights-based fisheries?
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: As I said, since joining the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, I’ve met with Mi’kmaq communities on the East Coast, and Indigenous communities on the West Coast as well. I understand very well the importance of developing fisheries that will ensure the economic development of Indigenous communities for the people who live there. I wish to see that as well, and as I mentioned, that’s why your report dealing with peace on the water is so important.
Last fall was a difficult one for Indigenous communities. There were concerns. Do we have peace on the water? No, we don’t. Some communities have even told me they can’t continue fishing under these conditions, because they’re worried about their fishers and their people.
In my opinion, information and awareness work has begun, but it needs to continue. We should depoliticize this issue in order to move forward and ensure the security and economic development of Indigenous and non-Indigenous communities.
[English]
Senator Busson: Thank you again, minister, for being here and taking your valuable time.
In our study on the seal harvest, several witnesses who appeared before this committee have spoken about the devastating harm caused by misinformation and disinformation regarding the seal harvest and its negative effect on the seal product industry in Atlantic Canada, Northern Canada and elsewhere.
It is encouraging to note in your presentation to us today that you support the expansion of the commercialization of seal products in the future, including meat and oil as well as skins and leather products.
What plans have been developed by your department to specifically address the negative impact of this misinformation and disinformation that seems to be pervasive with regard to this subject? Do you think there is more that could be done by the government on this issue?
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: Thank you for the question, Madam Senator.
Last August, the Prime Minister asked each of the ministers what their three priorities were for the next two years.
In the discussions I had, I had my three priorities in mind, but I checked to see if my colleagues would support my priorities — including the Atlantic ministers. One of my three priorities was the seal hunt. Since I took office in 2015, this is the first time seals have been openly prioritized.
I’ve experienced it at home, because I come from a coastal community. When I was young, we didn’t see seals at the water’s edge, but now we see them everywhere. They can even be spotted as far as Quebec City. In the discussions I had this year with the Quebec Minister of Fisheries, it was the first time the minister had authorized seal hunting on the Magdalen Islands, on Brion Island.
I also attended the Seal Summit in Newfoundland last year. As I mentioned, I discussed it last week with the U.S. ambassador. We know there’s a problem, and the openness was there, as it was with the Japanese ambassador. I also discussed this with the Indigenous communities. It’s important to me that they be able to take the lead on the seal hunt, because we’ve learned and are learning from the traditions of the Indigenous communities.
The product is 98% usable, not only for fur, but also for vitamins, omega 3s. Every year in February, during the Rendez‑vous loup marin in the Magdalen Islands, renowned chefs are invited to cook seal. When properly prepared, it’s delicious. So, there is progress. To my great surprise, when we talked openly and publicly about seals, there was no outcry about misinformation.
The goal is not to destroy a resource, but to use it wisely. If you can eat beef, you can eat seal and advertise it. Promotional work is being done in the field, with hotel institutes to get seal on the table, and with the Minister of Tourism to iron out disputes that may hinder the marketing of seal within Canada, so that it is not just used for export. The work is underway, we’re talking about it openly, and we need to keep moving forward with other countries.
[English]
Senator Busson: Thank you very much.
The Chair: Before I go to Senator Petten, I want to thank Senator Busson for filling in as chair of the committee in my absence. She does not want it on a permanent basis, and that makes me happy.
Senator Petten: In drawing the seal study in Newfoundland and with the number of witnesses that we’ve had, a number of them indicated that they feel like they know a lot about the sealing industry, but they feel like their traditional cultural knowledge has not been used and it’s more based on scientific knowledge.
I guess my question is: Will your department consider using that traditional knowledge? They feel like it is important in understanding their livelihood and what that means for their economy, food sources and a number of other issues, including marketing and the economics of what it means to their communities in their respective areas where they live.
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: Thank you for the question. I’ve had discussions with the Indigenous communities and will continue to do so. As has been mentioned, this year marks the 25th anniversary of the Marshall decisions. In these meetings with Indigenous communities and chiefs, what’s important to me is that Indigenous communities take the lead in getting their traditions recognized when it comes to seals. I was very pleased to be able to participate in the appointment of Quebec’s new Lieutenant-Governor, who is Mi’gma, two weeks ago. We discussed the seal hunt. For me, the work is well underway and will continue.
[English]
Senator Petten: Just off Newfoundland, with the commercial fisheries, the fishers indicated that they have information as well, particularly on how the seal population is impacting their fish stocks. Can you talk about that? Obviously, there’s a big discussion around the actual numbers. There seems to be some disagreement around the actual numbers of seals in that area.
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: According to my information, in Newfoundland and Labrador, the organization Fish, Food & Allied Workers received funding precisely to identify local changes in seal abundance and distribution over the past 20 to 40 years. We want to gather current and historical information for fishers, but we also see that with current climate change and warming oceans, there is much less ice.
I was able to go out on the pack ice in the Magdalen Islands in 2017 to witness seal pupping, and we don’t really have ice anymore. We need to work together with the fishers to obtain quality evidence that will enable us to properly exploit the new resource. As I said, there’s a lot of it out there, and we’re in a position to do it well, but we have to look at the whole picture to make it an eco-responsible and sustainable fishery. The bad publicity has to stop — there’s been a lot of it in Europe — if we’re to make any headway on this issue. Rest assured that I am a staunch ally. As I said, I wear seal and I eat it. In my opinion, this must continue.
[English]
Senator C. Deacon: Chair, it is nice to see you back, despite the fact that we really did enjoy the deputy chair in that role. It’s wonderful to see you again, Senator Manning.
Minister, thank you for being here with us. I am relatively new to the committee, just since the fall. I came in late on this study, but I am impressed by so much for the testimony we have heard. I am deeply troubled by the widespread disinformation, the lack of decisive action in response to that disinformation and the resulting harm to cultures, communities and ecosystems. It has been devastating. In some cases, I think we’re also increasing national security risks in the Arctic. There is a need for decisive action, not just toes in the water.
We were also not impressed that DFO’s, ability to conduct research in the North is not there. The capacity has not been there, and that has caused harm because we don’t have the information to move forward.
We heard from the Arctic Research Foundation, and we are very impressed with their low-cost, non-invasive, low-risk research techniques that a lot of academics are using — they are used throughout Scandinavia — and the fact that this builds on and with traditional Indigenous knowledge. Every project is built from the community through valuing Indigenous knowledge and academic knowledge.
I am wondering why you are not working with private sector partners in your department to help make advances, because they have not had the opportunity to work with DFO despite their efforts. That’s what they reported to us. As someone who spent a lifetime in the private sector, there is tremendous innovation, value, opportunity and agility that can come with working with private research organizations and others that are built on the values, which I think we all have, of accuracy and comprehensiveness.
Could you speak a little bit about that? For me, it takes a long time for the government to get up to speed, the private sector is more agile, and we need decisive action here. That’s very clear. There are communities being harmed. What can you offer in response?
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: The first answer I could give you would be that you need a minister for whom this is a priority. That’s what the industry needs too. The industry needs to receive a clear signal from the community that it will be there to encourage the development of the new resource.
You’re right: the community is ready to move forward; the Innu and Inuit communities and the Indigenous communities are ready to move forward. We need to send a clear signal to the community. I went to Newfoundland and said so openly. In the North, we’ve been working with Innu and Inuit communities to set up marine protected areas, and every time I’ve had the opportunity to talk about seals and everything we can do with them, everyone has agreed. We’re all on the same wavelength.
People are a bit less enthusiastic on the West Coast. When I broach the subject, people say they agree, but they talk about it somewhat less openly. They agree that it’s true that there are a lot of seals and that seals eat salmon, but they are a little more cautious, whereas people are much more forward-thinking on the East Coast. That’s a problem, because seals need to feed too. They have no predators. We can’t wait for the white shark to come and do the job for us. In my opinion, it’s important to move forward.
Since October 2018, we’ve announced the creation of autonomous regions in the Arctic for fisheries, oceans and the Coast Guard. We have commitments with external partners. I also expect this to be participatory work, and I’ll need everyone’s support. With the documents presented by the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, you too are important participants in each of your areas. So, I think we’re on the right track right now.
[English]
Senator C. Deacon: Chair, if I could follow up; thank you. I was asking about working with others. We heard from Indigenous communities that the Arctic Research Foundation already has trusted relationships with them. They have been working with them, building out of the needs of those communities with equipment that is non-invasive, that does ensure studies and whatever else. They have not been able to work with your department.
It is puzzling to me, as someone who spent my life in the private sector, when you have a credible partner who already has the ability to do research that you do not have the capacity to do in your department, why wouldn’t you be working with them? It is low cost. The communities themselves are saying this is very much needed. We need the research. It is not being done. The fish quotas are not accurate in the North because the work is not being done and it is harming the economy and ecology.
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: I’ll let the deputy minister answer about the investments that have been made to work with the community.
[English]
Ms. Gibbons: The way the department works, particularly on the science side, is very collaborative. There are research partnerships with communities, with outside scientists and private sector scientists. We have different kinds of agreements that we have in different places specifically to use industry data. That is very much in the DNA of the department.
In that specific example that you are raising of that specific organization, it may be that we’re not doing it at scale or we have not started yet with a particular organization. Certainly, we have resources across the country. The costs are huge, of course. The communities who want to be involved in the science work are numerous.
We are not necessarily everywhere. In this particular case, it may be that we’re not there at this point.
We have always had work in the Arctic regions. We recently created — with the Coast Guard as well — a dedicated Arctic region. That is fairly new. We are in the process of expanding our footprint there, the number of staff that we have, both on the Coast Guard side and DFO as well. As well we are trying to hire local individuals, which it is not easy. There is a lot of competition for people in the North with the territorial governments, for example.
We really are trying to have more people on the ground and to do more of that work together. The Coast Guard has the vessels that we do the science on.
We know that to optimize our resources in the North, we have to work with other partners. That is very much our objective. I am happy to go away and look into the specific organization and the concerns that have been raised, but that is the general posture of the department.
Senator C. Deacon: The urgency was really represented by the Indigenous communities in particular who said that there is information that they can back up with traditional knowledge that is not getting to you for policy decisions. Here is an agile group that could be working on it this year. We all know the pace of government. Thank you.
Senator Ravalia: Welcome back. Thank you, minister.
Canada’s ongoing global initiatives on the creation of enhanced Marine Protected Areas are causing some discord among harvesters who have expressed concerns that traditionally rich biomass sites may be under the block, so to speak.
Could you outline the department’s plan with respect to a go‑forward plan of your vision of a blue economy as it parallels the potential for a viable fishery?
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: As I want to say when I meet people in the fisheries sector: no fish, no fishing; no fishing, no economy. Since Canada is surrounded by three oceans, we have a real interest in protecting the fish and seafood sector, in order to continue developing the economy. Yes, we need to educate our fishers, because when we set up marine protected areas, we’re protecting a nursery and the future of the fishing industry. I’ve said it myself in my own community: as I come from the Gaspé and the Magdalen Islands, during my first mandate, the Banc‑des-Américains was set up at the end of Forillon Park, creating a great deal of concern among fishers, who thought it would harm their sector. Yet, as mentioned, it’s a marine protected area or marine park.
There are negotiations with the fishers; they can fish around it, but must let reproduction take place. That is what is really going to protect the future of the fisheries and ensure that our children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren will be able to fish.
Food security is an issue, hence the importance of protecting the oceans and establishing these marine protected areas. When we talk about marine parks, we always work in concert with local people. However, in marine parks, we can authorize certain types of fishing that do not destroy other species.
So, discussions are ongoing, but they’re now done much more in concert with the community. This was probably less the case in previous years. Sometimes, the government made decisions and there was no social acceptance. It’s important to work together with local people. However, we need marine protected areas, even more so now because of global warming and what’s happening in the oceans, because the situation is very worrying.
[English]
Senator Ravalia: To change gears, minister, I live in a fishing village on the northeast coast of Newfoundland and Labrador, Twillingate, which historically has been very reliant on the inshore fishery as well as the sealing industry.
When I talk to harvesters and fishers on the dock in my community, there is a perception that an overwhelming number of regulations come out of DFO, whether it be boat size, how licences are inherited or the start and end of species harvesting. This is leading to the loss of an entire generation being interested in the fishery. People feel absolutely overwhelmed by this.
I would appreciate knowing how the department arrives at regulations; what factors are taken into consideration; and, what lines of communication do you have with people on the ground?
The perception that I get is that the gap between the harvester and DFO is widening every year. There is an animosity that makes me uncomfortable. Thank you.
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: Before turning the floor over to the deputy minister, I’d like to say that I too come from a small village of 1,200 inhabitants where we made a living from cod fishing. I experienced first-hand the moratorium and the major impacts it had. My first job was as a mental health social worker. I worked with people on the catastrophic impact of the cod fishing moratorium in our communities.
I can tell you that right now, in my communities, there are concerns among fishers regarding succession, capacity and fishing licences. The cost of fishing licences has skyrocketed, there’s overbidding and the ability of our young people to access licences is being jeopardized. There are concerns in this regard. We need to work to ensure that we protect our owner-operators, but also our next generation, so that they continue to have access to licences.
I’ll turn it over to the deputy minister to talk about the rules we need to put in place.
[English]
Ms. Gibbons: I think it is true that there are many different regulations. Like all areas of government oversight, they accumulate over the years.
There is an awful lot of consultation in the development of regulations and policies. We have both regulations and policies that apply to the fishing sector. There is a constant back and forth. The inshore regulations brought in a couple of years ago were developed together with the industry at our side. What they look like is very much reflective of input from the industry.
Once regulations are in place, there are many discussions on how they are working. I participated in recent events where the department in Quebec reviewed the input of harvesters in the east on our owner/operator regime and our vessel-length regulations. We do surveys and bring back what we heard to harvester associations to get their input.
There are some areas of regulation where, when the department periodically stands back and takes a look, we think: Do we still need this? It is interesting that there is an attachment to them by different harvester groups. For example, there are different policies on vessel length in different provinces, in different regions of the department. Looking at harmonizing them, the provincial associations are not necessarily supportive of making changes to harmonize because, for whatever reason, the industry and a particular fishery has evolved in a certain way. They are used to that set of rules and they do not want to change them.
Sometimes there is that dynamic where people work with a policy or regulation and they do not want to change it. Sometimes we think it’s time to undertake the simplification, or harmonization, or removal of it, but there isn’t necessarily consensus around that. That is another interesting dynamic that I have seen in my time so far.
Senator Duncan: Thank you, minister and your officials, for your attendance here today.
I would like to follow up on your comments about meeting with the American ambassador. Yukon has a close relationship with our Alaskan neighbours. They are our relatives, our friends and, of course, First Nations have no boundaries there.
I appreciated, as a member of this committee, the opportunity to attend Newfoundland to learn more about the sealing industry and, in particular, the opportunity to visit the Carino processing plant. They shared with me that they had an opportunity to market to Alaska but were stopped at the border because of the issues regarding seal products.
You mentioned meeting with the American ambassador. Is there a specific plan or an opportunity for us to have an exemption to this boundary issue and this export issue in order to take immediate action to recognize the tremendous opportunity that harvesting the seals brings not only to Newfoundland but also to all of Canada?
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: Sometime in late February or early March, I’ll be going to Washington to meet with people and talk with them about who our allies might be. The work has begun. If there’s one thing I’ve learned since entering politics, it’s that politics and speed don’t necessarily go hand in hand. We need to make connections, have contacts and openings to work with the American market regarding marine mammals.
As I said earlier, there’s the United States, but there are also other countries where there could be interesting. That was the reason for my meeting with the Japanese ambassador, during which we discussed the advantages of working together to open up other markets. We’re also going to do this with Minister Ng, who is holding meetings all over the world. It’s a job that’s being done by several departments, to find openings to develop the market.
[English]
Senator Duncan: To follow up, this was a very real, immediate opportunity that could not be taken advantage of close to home. I would encourage you, if at all possible, to raise that as well.
Following up with our Alaskan neighbours, we have the Yukon River Panel. They are working very hard. The salmon are in a dire situation on the Yukon River. That has been brought to your attention.
From speaking with local fishermen there are other transboundary rivers that I am aware of — the Taku River, the Stikine River and the Alsek River — where the seal population is a real issue. Is there specific work under way with our Alaskan neighbours at the official, ground consultation level on the seal population in northeastern British Columbia and Alaska that is impacting on these headwaters that flow into the Yukon and impacting the ability of Yukon and British Columbia First Nations, to have salmon?
There are people in Teslin, for example, who have not been able to fish for salmon for a generation’s lifetime. Is work under way there specifically on the seal population in southeast Alaska with these three jurisdictions: Alaska, Yukon and British Columbia?
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: As I mentioned earlier, I went to British Columbia, and met with the Indigenous communities, who even told me they had to buy Alaskan salmon because they couldn’t get wild salmon for ceremonies. When I talked about seals on the West Coast, people were very skittish. If I didn’t broach the subject, they simply wouldn’t talk to me about it.
Honestly, you’re the first person who’s talked to me about having a problem with seals and moving forward with the resource. I’ve heard a lot about it on the East Coast, but very little, if anything, on the West Coast. I’m happy to be able to move forward more quickly on this issue. I know the deputy minister is also in touch, because it’s a collaborative effort with the U.S.
[English]
Ms. Gibbons: We have all kinds of different forums that we engage with the U.S. through. Certainly, on salmon there are commissions for managing the transboundary stock.
We also do science together with the U.S. In terms of the seal population on the West Coast, there are specific science projects, including one with the Heiltsuk Nation — which is not quite as far north as you are referring to — on seal abundance and diet, trying to use the local and traditional knowledge of the community to help us work on seal science.
There isn’t a commercial seal harvest on the West Coast, but there is a food, social and ceremonial harvest available to all Indigenous communities.
Senator Cordy: Thank you, minister, for being here today. You are very knowledgeable about your portfolio, one that you have not had for that long. I am appreciative of that.
I agree with your comment that maybe the best solution to lowering the seal population is not bringing in the white shark.
We recently passed the thirtieth anniversary of the cod moratorium. People my age can recall John Crosbie standing in St. John’s to announce it. No minister of fisheries would like to make that announcement in their own riding. Kudos to him from way back in the day.
Here we are many years later. We have been to Newfoundland and have spoken with fishers on the wharves. It is still a problem. I do not think that anyone thought that, 30 years later, we would still be talking about this.
What we are hearing over and again from witnesses before the committee, and what we heard in Newfoundland and in our own communities, is that it is the seal population who are eating the stocks. We heard in Newfoundland about the fishers seeing the shells from the shellfish in the waters where the seals had eaten them and the volume of products that they are eating.
We wonder — and others have asked similar questions — about whether there is an examination between the seal population eating the food and the cod stocks, and the fish stocks overall, which are depleting. The story about the Indigenous people having to go to the U.S. to get fish, salmon, is incredulous in a country like Canada.
Is there a budget for studying seals — how many, what they eat and the effect on the fisheries? That would be my first question.
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: Thank you for the question. Scientists at Fisheries and Oceans Canada are actively working with partners to better understand the seal’s role in marine ecosystems and how seal predation may be affecting fish populations in Atlantic Canada. It varies. My department has shown that grey seal predation has a negative impact on restoring some fish stocks that are depleted in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence.
As I said, with climate change and everything going on, in addition to seal predation, we’re also seeing other feed species of fish declining, which undermines the cod’s entire food chain. There are problems with herring and mackerel. Fishers tell us so.
I went to Newfoundland in January, and fishers told me that, for the first time this year, they’re not finding sea stars in traps. That tells them a lot. In the Gaspé, people told me there is no ocean pout showing up in lobster traps this year. They’re finding only striped bass in their lobster traps, and none of the fish species that feed other fish species.
What’s happening in our oceans is really concerning for all species. We really need to get scientists, fishers’ associations and packers’ associations, everyone, unanimously... It was the first time I heard the community telling me it needs a lot more science. We need to work together, because what happens underwater has a direct impact on what happens on earth with climate change. The fisheries sector is very concerned about a lot of things.
[English]
Senator Cordy: Absolutely. I think we cannot make the right decisions unless we have the right data. That is so important. It seems that we are not getting as much as we should have — or we have not heard about it; let’s put it that way.
I would like to change direction and go into the misinformation. Senator Deacon spoke about this earlier.
We’ve always heard the marketing concerns about seal products and the promotion of seal products. When we heard about disinformation and misinformation, it was pretty scary in terms of what is out there concerning seal products and why we shouldn’t have them.
When we were in Newfoundland and St. John’s, we had the opportunity to visit a store that sold seal products. It was incredible, with the coats and all of the products throughout the store. Even though the cruise ships landed just behind the main street of the city, people were not able to buy the products. They could take them onboard the ship but, once they landed, they were not able to take them off the ship.
These are problems for marketing excellent, top-notch seal products. How do we counter that as a government? It is huge, what we have been hearing from witnesses before our committee.
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: I’ve made that a priority; it was also the priority for all of my colleagues, and that work is being done with the provinces. The federal government, the provinces, small- and medium-sized businesses and our tourism industry have to collaborate. Before we talk about exports, we need to see how people can develop the product here at home and turn it into a quality product they can really use.
I’m sure we have all the resources to do this right here at home. We did it with lobster. I remember very well that, during the groundfish moratorium, there was a time when prisoners were fed lobster and we fertilized our gardens with lobster and crab. Because of the money that was invested and the work that was done, lobster has significant added value on the market. People are involved in secondary and tertiary processing, and it’s the same with crab products.
We need to use our experience; we don’t need to reinvent the wheel. We figured out how to be successful with our seafood products. We need to be able to apply that to other species and turn them into value-added products.
I truly believe that we’re heading in the right direction. In my opinion, the circumstances are ideal. We need to work on this. I also believe that, in the United States, seals are becoming a problem in Maine. I’m going to Maine to meet with people in the fisheries sector, talk about the issue and see how we can work together to capitalize on the product.
[English]
Senator Cordy: Thank you very much.
Senator McPhedran: Welcome, minister and officials. Thank you for taking the time today. I’d like to move to a different topic, still within your mandate, and that is building on Canada being among the nations that called for an international moratorium on deep seabed mining. This was at the meeting last July at the International Seabed Authority meetings. We took a principled position. The moratorium is not in place. Various countries are just moving ahead with their exploratory plans, and there can be no doubt whatsoever that deep seabed mining will impact significantly on fisheries and oceans for Canada.
The Chinese government has made funding for deep-sea mining research a national priority. Many countries are positioning what they plan to do with deep seabed mining as a “security issue.” The United States, which is not a member of the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, is moving forward with its own parallel laws and regulations on seabed mining and has moved already to issue exploration licences to U.S. companies. Increasingly, these moves are being framed as national security for accessing critical mineral resources.
There are potentially harmful repercussions on Canadian waters, territories, ecology and our maritime industries such as fishing.
What is the government doing to act in a united fashion with global partners to maintain the credibility and the authority of the UN treaty and the Seabed Authority in this growing geopolitical issue and how it impacts potentially on our maritime industries?
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: For starters, as I said earlier, when it comes to protecting the environment and oceans in the context of what’s going on, there are a lot of concerns. We have to protect our oceans, because this is a food security issue, too.
As to the work those departments are doing and the technicalities, I’ll let the Deputy Minister answer your question.
[English]
Ms. Gibbons: Canada’s position is to work with the International Seabed Authority, so it is a pause, not a moratorium. The goal is to try to develop a regulatory framework around this activity. Canada is working with other countries on developing a regulatory framework. That’s the position we’ve taken.
Senator McPhedran: At what stage is that, please?
Ms. Gibbons: Negotiations, what the framework would look like. I would say early stages.
Senator McPhedran: Through the Seabed Authority?
Ms. Gibbons: Through the Seabed Authority, yes.
Senator McPhedran: I would like to pick up on a question that Senator Francis asked you. I have no doubt whatsoever about the sincerity of your response. He asked if you are prepared to develop a new separate law from the one that regulates your mandate to a great extent. I didn’t hear you say yes or no to him. So I am circling back to ask in a more specific, focused way what the actual action is that you are planning or prepared to take in response to the question from Senator Francis about fishing rights.
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: At this point, we’re doing everything necessary to ensure that Canada’s laws are consistent with the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. I believe it’s important to work on preparing and implementing the action plan to achieve those goals.
We do have legislation and Supreme Court decisions, such as Marshall, and so on. At the moment, we’re working with the Minister of the Crown. We’re also meeting with Indigenous communities to implement all the principles of reconciliation and autonomy of Indigenous communities and to ensure that everything is done safely.
As I said at the outset, safety can be a challenge in the fisheries. We saw that last fall in Nova Scotia with Indigenous communities and non-Indigenous groups. There were some issues with disinformation. There’s still work to do, but I can assure you that we’re working very collaboratively toward the same goal with various Indigenous communities.
[English]
Senator McPhedran: If I could move to just a yes or no, minister, to keep this brief within our time. Are you prepared to develop a new law in response to the points made by Senator Francis when he asked you if you were going to develop a new law to address the gaps that have been clearly outlined in our Senate report? Yes or no?
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: The goal is to work within the framework provided by our current laws. We are working, and we’ll keep working.
[English]
Senator McPhedran: So the answer is no to Senator Francis’s question.
Senator Ataullahjan: Minister, good to hear from you this morning. A few things I would like to raise have been raised by the other senators. One thing we heard about consistently was the challenges in the relationship between the seal harvesters and others and with the DFO. I am happy to hear you say that is something that you will look like. There is also a feeling that the government hasn’t done much to support the seal harvesters. I’m happy to hear that when you go to the United States and when you talk to the Japanese ambassador that this is an issue that you will be working on, because the seal harvesters and industry felt they were left more or less on their own. This is something we heard consistently in testimony here in Ottawa and on our visits.
What I’m interested in is whether you have looked at nontraditional markets or products from the sealing industry. Maybe it is time to expand. Maybe look at markets in Asia or in Africa. There is a lot of money in those countries now, and people are willing to try something that is exotic. That might be a possibility.
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: Certainly, for the industry to hear messaging from the Minister of Fisheries about how environmentally responsible development of this new resource is a good thing — It’s been announced and discussed openly. I was very surprised; I’ve been speaking openly about it since August. I’ve been talking about seal for a long time, since well before 2015. I think it’s important. I’ve been saying we need to capitalize on the resource, and here are all the possibilities. We can use our past experience to develop this sector. That gives the business community the green light. It’s the signal they need because they’ll keep doing the work they do so well with small- and medium-sized businesses. However, we also need to work with the provinces and the sector as a whole. I see new markets.
Are things going to happen fast? It took several years for lobster and crab, but I am very optimistic. Companies are already prepared to move forward in the animal feed, omega-3, fur, tourism and human food sectors.
Next week, I’m scheduled to meet with people in the food sector, with chefs, and we’re going to talk about— Quebec has the Fourchette Bleue program, which promotes products and tells people how they can use them. These products have to be out there. I would like to go to a fishmonger and know that I can buy them because they’re available. I can buy them and cook them at home. All that work needs to be done. It’s one thing to say it, but once it’s said, the work needs to be done. The business community will keep doing that work.
[English]
Senator Ataullahjan: Thank you, minister. How would promoting the history of the seal industry — as an immigrant, I was fascinated when we took a trip to the museum. We are a country of immigrants. I’m sure that if you look at the biggest cities, like Toronto, Vancouver and Montréal, a lot of people may not be aware of the history of the sealing industry and how difficult it is for the seal harvesters. I have so much respect for them since I became aware of what they go through. I feel that we don’t do justice to that part of our history. Do you have any plans to promote it? Even a simple ad on TV so that people will realize to salute seal harvesters.
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: I completely agree with you. There’s work that needs to be done. People were waiting for the green light, waiting for this to become a priority for the minister. It is a priority for me. I know the community. I’m from there. I’m from the coast, from the seaside. Someone from Toronto doesn’t necessarily know everything that someone from the coast knows, just like I don’t necessarily know everything about cities. There’s work that needs to be done in concert with the industry as a whole and with the provinces.
[English]
Senator Ataullahjan: Minister, you say you are waiting for the green light. The green light from whom? Are you at liberty to share that with us?
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: I’m not waiting for anyone to give me the green light. I’ve made this a priority. For me, using seal sustainably as a consumer product is a priority. With what happened in Europe, where there was so much misinformation about the seal cull and the consequences, that destroyed what could have been a hunt — because seals are hunted, not fished. There was that awful ad. As a result, the industry hasn’t been able to grow as well as it should. People in coastal communities have been complaining about that for years.
Indigenous and Inuit communities have continued to hunt seal because it’s a traditional food for them. What happened in Europe with Ms. Bardot and environmental groups destroyed the industry and hopes of developing the product and making it a value-added product. We are starting to talk about it openly again. I see that as a good thing.
[English]
Senator Cuzner: To the long-serving members of this committee, I’m looking forward to working with you over the coming months and years.
Let me first thank the minister and Commissioner Pelletier. I know that five feet of snow with drifts 20 feet — my colleagues in Newfoundland don’t even get the shovel out for that, they can broom or sweep it away, but we’ve been paralyzed in Cape Breton since last Friday. The support from the Coast Guard — we have two bus loads of cadets, 100 cadets, from the Canadian Coast Guard College going around and shovelling out people who are stranded and blocked in. It is pretty cool. Thank you for that.
Minister, I will ask you a question that you will probably find cringe worthy, as will most of my colleagues on the committee, but I will pose it anyway. As has been identified by Senator Duncan and Senator Cordy, fish harvesters very much see not just the abundance but the overabundance of seal populations as a real problem, a threat to their industry, and a reason why the industry and a lot of the fisheries have not rebounded.
We’re trying to find opportunities for seal products. In the testimony that I have witnessed, it can take care of a small portion. The domestic need is a very small portion of the issue. Misinformation and disinformation have been brought up and is huge. It is a reality of society now, whether you look at politics or public health and the pushback on vaccines. On this particular issue, it has been prevalent. Senator Manning and I served with Gail Shea, the former fisheries minister. In 2011, they announced a significant deal with China. It was going to be a huge thing for the seal harvesters and to deal with the seal issue. That was pretty much scuttled. The government of China yielded to the pushback from animal rights groups. We all know that China is not usually open to criticism or anybody else’s suggestions.
When we’re talking about trying to create markets and any trade deal, you have to have a willing exporter and a willing importer. I don’t see that list of importers growing in the coming years.
There may be some opportunities with omega-3 fatty acids or other opportunities there, but we’ve always been cautious to refer to it as a harvest, but do we get to the point where we have to discuss whether or not Canada has a cull? That will be the cringeworthy question.
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: We’ve started doing that work in Canada, but it’ll take time, and we have to collaborate with the provinces and the industry. Various departments have to participate, and strategies… We need to realize that there’s this new product to develop. and some countries are open to it, but others aren’t. It’s a long-term undertaking.
I definitely wouldn’t say that at this point. It’s true that there are a lot of seals, but we can’t just cull them. We need ways to use the resource. We need to take the time to figure that out, and we have to do it properly so misinformation and old behaviours don’t take over. Deputy Minister?
[English]
Ms. Gibbons: On the population, we have done a recent science assessment and revised downward the abundance of the harp seal population. There are different views on that, but that’s what our latest science shows. That’s one thing.
But on the possibility of markets like China or other Asian markets which were also mentioned, this is a multifaceted issue which needs very targeted approaches in different markets. We do have exemptions on Indigenous products, right? Those are things that can be exploited. We’ve worked with two territories on a certification regime to really be clear that these seal products come from Indigenous harvesters and are therefore eligible for exemption. That’s one possibility.
I met with the Fur Institute of Canada this week, and there are opportunities. It is specific. Someone mentioned omega-3 and the seal oil. People may be squeamish about fur, but they may be more open to other products. There is the meat, the organs for pet food, pet snacks, and human food, as the minister said as well, but there is a sort of pet food possibility there.
It’s being able to have targeted strategies for specific products in different markets, taking advantage of the exemptions and really using the capacity of everyone involved in the industry. We do provide support for those sorts of marketing strategies.
Senator Cuzner: Do we have the resources going into those areas to pursue the possibilities of further growth in the pet food section, the oils or whatever we have?
Ms. Gibbons: Definitely, there has been support for those productions at different levels of government, but the seal processing plant that I visited last week in St. John’s is doing omega-3 fatty acids. They are doing skins. They have received financial support from different expansion projects from governments. The industry comes to us with specific proposals and we’ve been funding various exporting activities and processing activities.
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: Businesses have been making proposals. In Atlantic Canada, they go to ACOA; in Quebec, they go to Economic Development Canada. Those agencies support businesses that have ideas for value-added products and markets for those products.
We have to develop a circular economy, and 98% of the seal is usable. This is part of the new way of doing things: using the entire animal out of respect and to honour its value.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you, minister. We have four minutes left with the minister and we have two senators looking to ask questions. I will give you one minute each for question and answer and you are done.
Senator C. Deacon: Thank you, chair. Disinformation is destroying cultures, communities and ecosystems. We need a whole-of-government approach if we’re going to make progress. Disinformation is the biggest challenge we have in many cases. Is there the ability for a minister of CRA to find creative ways to make the disinformation done by American and other charities, not-for-profits who are harming our industry in Canada to hold their associated charities in Canada to account and take away their charitable status for the false information that they are sending? We are paying them to do it by giving them charitable status. We don’t want to reward them for that. Thank you.
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: Are we still talking about seals?
[English]
Senator C. Deacon: Absolutely. The disinformation of the seal hunt, charitable organizations are causing harm. We could hold their associated Canadian charities to account.
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: So, when I came to this department, I started in my own backyard by saying, “Look, when we do briefings, I’d like you to stop putting photos of baby seals on all the information I get.” It tends to start with charities. Everyone would tell me, “Oh my God! Baby seals are so cute!”
We need to stop that. We need to talk about food security; that’s what matters. That’s what’s going to thwart the efforts of organizations that boycott seal products. I tell everyone I know that I like eating tofu, but I don’t want to eat it every day. Seal products are really great.
[English]
Senator C. Deacon: We may have to get as tough as they are, though.
Senator Duncan: Thank you, minister and officials, for your appearance here today. I would ask you to not only have a whole-of-government, but to mobilize a whole-of-country approach to this issue. The whole country lobbied and supported our beef industry. We supported our dairy industry. Can we not do the same with the seal industry?
Everybody during the pandemic got a dog. The product that we have seen for pet foods is one avenue to appeal to the hearts and minds of Canadians. I just would ask that you lead your government in a whole-of-country approach in support for this industry.
Senator Busson: I want to echo what our other colleagues were saying. There are two issues: Cultural preservation and preservation of the ecology and fish stocks. You are the lightning rod for this issue, but it is a whole-of-government and a whole‑of-country issue. I was going to say more or less the same thing.
Would you be the champion? Would you be that person to be able to muster the energy of the government to make this a priority for the people of Canada?
The world needs good protein — the oil, the skins and all of that.
That is my comment. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you to all my colleagues for a great discussion.
I would like to end with my comment, and then I will ask the minister if she has a closing comment she would like to make.
I have been around Ottawa now since 2006, and I have been involved in politics for 30 years. I have been the chair of this committee since 2011. The seal industry is very close to my heart as a Newfoundlander and Labradorian, and for the first time in a long time I feel confident that we have someone at the wheel who, at least, has the heart of this industry at her side.
I want to finish on a positive note. You don’t get that in politics every day, but you will get it here. For the first time in a long time, I feel confident that we have somebody steering the ship in the right direction.
I will leave the closing remarks to you, minister.
[Translation]
Ms. Lebouthillier: Thank you very much. In closing, let me say that the vast majority of us live in urban centres. People like eating seafood and fish, but they don’t understand what it’s been like for people who live in those communities, for fishers. They don’t understand what we need to do to protect our oceans.
You’re all from different backgrounds, and you can all become ambassadors and educate everyone so we can move forward in the right direction. Thank you.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you, minister, for taking the time to join us here this morning.
Steering committee members, if you can, stay around for a few minutes afterwards to have a chat. Thank you.
(The committee adjourned.)