THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON VETERANS AFFAIRS
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Wednesday, April 19, 2023
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs met with videoconference this day at 12 p.m. [ET] to examine and report on issues relating to Veterans Affairs, including services and benefits provided, commemorative activities, and the continuing implementation of the Veteran’s Well-being Act.
Senator David Richards (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, welcome to this meeting of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security, Defence and Veterans Affairs. I’m David Richards, a senator from New Brunswick and the chair of the subcommittee. I’m joined today by my fellow subcommittee members: Senator Boisvenu from Quebec, who is the deputy chair; Senator Anderson from the Northwest Territories; and Senator Deacon from Ontario. Senator Yussuff is not here yet.
Today, we continue our study of emerging treatments for Canadian Armed Forces and Royal Canadian Mounted Police veterans suffering from occupational stress injuries. We are joined by two veterans — in medical retirement — who have agreed to share their experiences with us. It is an honour to welcome Kelsie Sheren, retired Artillery Gunner from the Canadian Armed Forces; and, by video conference, Nigel McCourry, retired Lance Corporal from the United States Marine Corps. Thank you both for your service and your willingness to speak with us today.
We will begin by inviting you to provide your opening remarks, to be followed by questions from our members. We will first hear from Kelsie Sheren. Ms. Sheren, the floor is now yours.
Kelsie Sheren, Artillery Gunner (Medical Ret’d), Canadian Armed Forces, as an individual: Thank you so much. My name is Kelsie Sheren. I am a medically retired Canadian artillery gunner, and I served from 2007 to 2011. I was deployed to Afghanistan in April 2009 with the 5e Régiment d’artillerie légère du Canada, or 5 RALC, as an artillery gunner, and part of Roto 109 in Operation Herrick.
While in Afghanistan, I was attached to the British 3 SCOTS, or the 3rd Battalion of the Royal Regiment of Scotland, and the Black Watch as a female searcher for the cultural support team. During that deployment, I ran the M777 155-millimetre howitzers and mortars, as well as fired machine guns and my personal C7.
Day in and day out, I would stand beside and on an M777, which fires rounds weighing just under 100 pounds and has a range of up to 40 kilometres, with a recoil of about 2 feet.
The Chair: Ms. Sheren, can you just slow your comments down a bit so the translators can catch up?
Ms. Sheren: Yes, no problem. Sorry, I’m aware of the time, so I’m trying to be conscious.
The Chair: If you’re over by a few seconds, we won’t jump down your throat. You may continue slower.
Ms. Sheren: Thank you so much.
These guns would make your ears ring and the ground shake every time the lanyard was pulled.
During my time with the British, I was exposed to dozens of firefights, explosions and improvised explosive devices, or IEDs. The trauma from that operation with the British was the turning point in my life. The moment I experienced the first death of a friend from a hidden IED, everything changed.
Shortly after that operation, I was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, and put on a laundry list of pharmaceutical medications while still serving in-country and running an M777. After some time, I was sent home early to receive more treatment for my PTSD. Once back in Canada, I was doing everything I could to heal and even get better. I spent the next decade of my life receiving the treatment that Veterans Affairs Canada, or VAC, and the operational stress injury, or OSI, clinic made available to me: talk therapy; eye movement desensitization and reprocessing, or EMDR, therapy; cognitive behavioural therapy, or CBT; and exposure therapy. In 2011, I was given a 3B medical release, and told I would most likely never work again.
At the height of my treatment, I was 21 years old and on 11 different pharmaceutical drugs. Nothing was working. I was suicidal, angry, hurting and lost, and I was completely helpless. I didn’t think I could ever become a healthy person or a productive part of society again. The words that VAC said rang in my ears for years: “You’ll never work again.” My life was over at 21.
Psychedelic-assisted therapy is the only reason I am alive, and that is because I was lucky enough to gain access. I had truly tried everything; it was my last kick at the can before I couldn’t do it any longer. I was first introduced to psychedelic-assisted therapy through Combat Flip Flops, a veterans-owned company that connected me with a non-profit that could help. I was then able to go through the Heroic Hearts Project and travel internationally to receive the treatment with pre- and post-integration work.
Psychedelic-assisted therapy is the only reason I can be a present mother, wife and value to society — the community I care so deeply about. But I was only introduced because a community member noticed I was struggling — not my doctor and not a surgeon.
The options for treatment of service-related conditions with psychedelics in Canada exist as well, mainly through the Health Canada Special Access Program. This program exists to provide patients — with serious or life-threatening conditions — access to drugs where cases of conventional treatment have failed, have been unsuitable or have been unavailable in Canada.
The Special Access Program is the most restrictive system of access to treatments in Canada. To go through the program, the most vulnerable patients apply, on a case-by-case basis, to gain access to the drug they need through an evidence-based approval process. I am currently going through the Special Access Program application process with the assistance of the Vancouver-based non-profit group TheraPsil and the Canadian pharmaceutical company Apex Labs. The non-profit has helped palliative patients and at-risk demographics gain legal, regulated access to psilocybin since the Food and Drug Regulations were amended in January 2022. This allows patients access to psilocybin and MDMA through the Special Access Program.
Apex Labs is currently in the process of launching two clinical trials studying the effects of macrodosing and microdosing with veterans suffering from depression and anxiety as a result of their PTSD. They also established an early access program for Canadian veterans who meet the criteria for access to the drug products through the Special Access Program.
A combination of talk therapy and antidepressants are the current standard for veterans with PTSD, but they are an acknowledged failure with wildly low success rates among Canadian veterans. Regulated access to psilocybin drug products through the Special Access Program is providing a ray of hope as an emerging treatment option for those who have exhausted all conventional options available to them.
The issue remaining is that the cost of these treatments are not currently covered by VAC. In my case, the cost of the drug is being covered by Apex Labs, but expecting a private company to provide a treatment free of charge to every single patient seeking access is obviously not a viable long-term strategy.
The existing clinical evidence on the benefits of psilocybin for treatment of PTSD has guided Health Canada to amend federal regulations in order to allow patients access through a physician-guided framework. We clearly have the mechanisms to provide access and coverage to veterans in need. Access to life-saving treatment options should not be held up by gaps in bureaucratic policies. Time after time, our veterans have stood up selflessly to protect this country; yet, we are being left behind to fall through the cracks of the system once again. It is time for our government to stand up for us now.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity as a veteran to share my story. I look forward to any follow-up questions that the committee may have.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Ms. Sheren. Next, we will hear from Nigel McCourry. Mr. McCourry, please proceed.
Nigel McCourry, Lance Corporal (Medical Ret’d), United States Marine Corps, as an individual: Good day to everybody.
My name is Nigel McCourry, and I served in the United States Marine Corps from 2003 until 2005. I appreciate the invitation to speak at this event. This is an important topic for me. I feel that it saved my life, as well as the lives of friends whom I’ve referred to the experimental study. I feel that it also could have saved the lives of many people who weren’t able to get directed to the study.
I joined the Marine Corps in 2003 because I wanted to serve my country, and I wanted to be a part of something that was bigger than myself. It seemed like a very important cause that I could contribute to, so I joined. I was sent to the front lines of Iraq in 2004; I served in Iraq from February 2004 until October 2004. I was with the infantry, and we served on the front lines. While I was in Iraq, I was shot on a daily basis by about every conceivable type of munition. We had mortars falling into our camp all of the time. I’ve been pinned down in a hole with enemy mortars falling just feet away from the hole, and with enemy machine gunfire blanketing the top of the hole — where I thought for sure I was going to die. I didn’t die, though. The mortar rounds never landed inside the hole, and I felt very fortunate.
I was in numerous firefights. During one firefight, I, unfortunately, shot at a truck that was coming behind us after signalling for it to stop. It didn’t stop, so I took shots and ended up killing two small girls who were in this truck. The thoughts and memories of that stuck with me very strongly.
Also, an IED went off 5 or 10 feet from the unarmoured Humvee I was in. Fortunately, the IED was buried too deep, so it didn’t cause as much damage as it could have, but it still caused a very strong impact — it knocked me out. From that point on in the deployment, I didn’t feel like myself. I kept pushing through the deployment, though, thinking this was just part of combat — this was just part of being in a war zone. It was after I returned from Iraq in October 2004 that I started to really notice that some serious and severe changes had developed, which began affecting my personal and military life.
As a result of this, I was eventually discharged from the Marines and entered medical retirement down the road; that was in August 2005. From August 2005 until August 2011, I was a full-time student using my GI Bill benefits, and I was suffering from PTSD — I wasn’t having it treated. PTSD wasn’t something that I was even diagnosed with leading up to my discharge from the Marine Corps. I was discharged based on the symptoms of PTSD, but they didn’t tell me I had PTSD. So I didn’t have a name to label this. For years and years, my life was in this downward spiral. I reached the point where I just wanted to kill myself. It was at that point when I finally sought help at the Veterans Administration, or VA, and I was diagnosed with severe PTSD in 2011 — from combat in Iraq.
At that point, I couldn’t sleep at night. I hadn’t been able to sleep since deployment in Iraq. If I did fall asleep, I would wake up nearly immediately with nightmares — largely nightmares surrounding experiences in Iraq. My social life had fallen apart. My relationship with friends and family had deteriorated to the point where it felt pretty hopeless trying to even pursue them. I was drinking a lot to try to cover up all of the issues I was having, and to give myself a chance to fall asleep at night. The drinking was making things worse. It got to the point where life didn’t feel worth living. I was completely stuck mentally in the experiences of Iraq, and I felt completely unable to move on. I would spend all day stuck inside of memories of Iraq, and looking at pictures of Iraq. I couldn’t escape the experiences of Iraq, even though five, six and then seven years had gone by. I felt so connected to the experiences of Iraq that it was debilitating. Also, I was having all of these debilitating symptoms of PTSD.
It was really difficult — very difficult. It was the worst part of my life that I ever had. I went to the VA, and, for treatment, they offered me talk therapy and a long list of psychopharmaceuticals: different types of antidepressants, medications to help me relax and medications to help me fall asleep. I tried it all. I did the talk therapy; I really wanted it to work, but I felt so guarded during the therapy that I could never really reach a point where it was useful. There was too much internal interference for talk therapy to become useful. It was more annoying than anything.
Also, the symptoms I was having from the side effects of taking those psychopharmaceuticals were, to me, just as bad as the symptoms from the PTSD that I was suffering from. That didn’t seem like it was a solution to the problem. The talk therapy also didn’t seem like it was a solution to the problem, so I felt really hopeless. I was being told by the VA that there was no cure for PTSD, and the best that I could hope for was to manage the symptoms — that was basically it.
Then, by chance, I came across the MDMA-assisted psychotherapy research that was going on. My sister told me about something that she had seen on a show on the National Geographic channel: It was a whole show on MDMA, and, for the most part, it was looking at MDMA in a very damning, critical light. But there was this one little excerpt in the middle where they talked about how MDMA was being used to treat PTSD. I was open to any idea at that point, so I searched for the study and found it. I felt very fortunate that I was able to get into it because of where I lived at the time. When I initially talked to the study director, they said there were hundreds of people on the waiting list who were in line to receive the PTSD treatment.
The Chair: Excuse me, Mr. McCourry, if you could finish up within the next little while so we could proceed to the questions. Thank you very much.
Mr. McCourry: You’re very welcome.
I was fortunate to receive this. I ended up going through the treatments. After the first treatment, my sleep issues went away, and I haven’t had the issues following sleeping at night ever since. Numerous other issues have cleared up, but the biggest thing was that I was able to mentally move on from the experiences in Iraq. I was able to feel a sense of separation of time between those experiences and the life that I’m currently living. That’s the biggest benefit that I think helped clear up a lot of the other issues.
I’m happy to answer any questions. This is an important topic for me, so I could talk about it for a while. I appreciate this.
The Chair: Thank you very much. We certainly appreciate you and Ms. Sheren being here. I’m going to open it up for questions from senators. We’ll begin with Senator Boisvenu, the deputy chair.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: First, I want to thank you very much for being here today, but more importantly, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for the years you have given for your respective countries. It takes a lot of courage to do what you have done, as a mission, and I commend you for that.
Ms. Sheren, you seem to disagree, at least from your comments, that treatment of post-traumatic shock with psychedelics should be open to everyone. You seem to be saying that if the treatment were open to everyone — and those were your words — it would not be viable.
I’d like you to explain your perspective on this.
[English]
Ms. Sheren: No, let me rephrase. What I was stating was that it should be available for everyone. The case-by-case basis with which it is being provided for — including in my personal case — is by a privately funded company. It is not a viable option for privately funded companies to be constantly providing. It needs to be across the board, just like any other treatment would be. If I was being prescribed Zoloft versus being prescribed MDMA treatment, I should have access to both through VAC across the board. It should be the same for psychedelics as it is for pharmaceutical intervention, including talk therapy and other CBTs in combination. Sorry if that got lost in translation.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: As I understand it, you used these psychedelic substances as part of your therapy. Is that correct?
[English]
Ms. Sheren: No, I was initially on all pharmaceutical medications up until 2015. In 2015, my psychiatrist, Dr. Greg Passey, brought up cannabis, which is a psychedelic. At the time, cannabis was going through the legislation process in Canada. I was starting to use cannabis at that point, prior to MDMA or any other type of psychedelic, in order to slowly move myself off of pharmaceutical intervention. Around 2021, I believe, that’s when the individual within my community saw that — even in combination with talk therapy, CBT, exposure therapy, cannabis, pharmaceutical intervention, weekly checkups, eating right and moving my body properly — I was still struggling to the point where I was becoming suicidal. That community member was the one who saw me during something and reached out — it was not Apex Labs. That was funded through an organization in the United States called the Heroic Hearts Project. They are a 501(c)(3) organization that funds veterans to travel internationally to access psychedelic intervention. That had nothing to do with Apex Labs at the time.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: Did I understand that you are in the medical field?
[English]
Ms. Sheren: No, everything that I’ve learned, and had to go through, has been self-education due to the fact that any time I went to a doctor, there was a lack of experience, understanding or willingness to provide anything but pharmaceutical intervention. From learning through my own psychiatry experience for the past decade, if you look at any doctor’s handbook, antidepressants are meant for short-term use only.
Senator Boisvenu: So you have knowledge that some of your brothers in arms used that kind of substance during their therapy.
Ms. Sheren: In terms of psychedelics, I’ve also been through my own personal psychedelic experiences. I’ve used one of the psychedelics over nine times, and I’ve used the other one — psilocybin — several times as well.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: To your knowledge, is there a withdrawal period for people who do therapy involving psychedelic substances?
[English]
Ms. Sheren: No, absolutely not. Psychedelics are a non-addictive drug. I struggle with the word “drug” because the majority are plant-based — at least the ones I expose myself to are all plant-based, so I don’t really consider it a drug per se. Psychedelics, in general, when used in the right setting with pre- and post-integration — that’s where the focus needs to be on this. Psychedelics are just the opportunity. They’re the moment for the lesson to be learned. It’s the integration pre- and post-use that plays the most critical role in the treatment having a long-term effect.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you. We’ve waited awhile, Ms. Sheren and Mr. McCourry, to meet you and see you, and we thank you both for being here, and for being so honest and up front. This is a journey that is quite compelling. Thank you to the chair for the opportunity to talk to folks who have been through the field of experience.
I have a question for both of you. The question starts more like a comment, but I’d like to get your opinion on it. It is a frustration that’s been building for me over the course of all of the hearings that we’ve had. In your line of work — regarding what you have done for your countries and other emergency services — we allow individuals to accept a great degree of short- and long-term risk. You serve, and, for many, you acquire an operational stress injury. For some, approved treatments don’t work, and here we have psychedelics that show promise. We already know some of the side effects, but suddenly that becomes too much of a concern and a fear for it to move forward — and to try this approach. There’s regulatory hurdles, as you know from your experience through Apex Labs, and a stigma from the misguided war on drugs in the past decades.
This is certainly frustrating as we go through this very important work. You are allowed to risk your life to serve your community and your country, but, if you’re injured during service, both of you have described very well how somebody in your community advised you — and, Mr. McCourry, you said that you read up and found something that might be a good solution for you. I’m wondering if you share the same frustration that I’m trying to articulate today through the process of your own life experiences.
Ms. Sheren: I would say that I, as well as the community, Apex Labs and several other organizations — that work so desperately to ensure that people gain access to the plant — echo your frustrations. Thank you for that.
There is the idea of risk-reward — why is the risk-reward okay to send 17-, 18-, 19- and 20-year-old children to fight in wars, but the risk-reward for a grown adult to decide to access a plant‑based medicine that can save their life is not being looked at? There’s the risk-reward for an individual, if they’ve gone in the right setting — which I cannot stress enough. This is not an at‑home, on-your-own, unsupervised situation. This has to be done properly and safely. If we can have others making decisions for us, and saying that we are supposed to put our lives on the line — and saying that the risk-reward is totally fine because we’re a number — but we can’t make our own decision to ingest a plant, the frustration sits there.
It is changing the community, and it is taking, sadly, those within the community stumbling upon these situations in order to help each other. I have never seen more success in anything else across the board in the U.S., the U.K. and Canada. The Heroic Hearts Project has a Canadian arm, a U.K. arm and a U.S. arm. Anecdotally, I have seen so many friends’ lives turn around because of plant-based medicine — not because of psychology, psychiatry, appointments, rehashing the past and pharmaceutical intervention. I have only ever seen long-term, sustained progress with psychedelic use, integration therapy and a support network around that.
Something you need to understand is that, when individuals go with organizations like the Heroic Hearts Project, there’s an integration in the post- and pre-use, but then you are in support networks after that, which means that you don’t stop talking to the people you travelled with or the integration coaches. You are now part of something greater. When you leave the service, if you’re not sure of this, you lose your community and your identity. This not only helps people find themselves again, but it also gives them the opportunity to heal so they can start finding happiness again. Pharmaceutical drugs just flatline you across the board — top to bottom. Why aren’t the side effects being looked at for the drugs that we’re being given — yet people are too worried about the side effects of plant-based medicine?
Mr. McCourry: Yes, I share your frustrations. I share them to the point that I’m here speaking with you, and I’m willing to share publicly my most difficult personal experiences in order to hopefully remove the stigma that you’re talking about, and to inform the public that a lot of the concerns that have been propagated by the war on drugs aren’t concerns as far as using this in a controlled, safe and therapeutic setting.
Senator Anderson: Thank you both for your testimony, and your willingness to share your personal stories. It is greatly appreciated, and it’s the voices that we need to hear. I thank you for that.
You may have answered this question, but what — for both of you — was the difference between traditional therapy and psychedelic therapy? You talked about pre- and post-integration and support, but could you explain the difference and what worked for you?
Ms. Sheren: If you are looking at psychedelics, very often many of these treatments — that are making the change and the difference in people — are done in a medical setting with some type of ceremonial touch to it, if you will. There is something about connecting to something deeper and letting go.
When you are in talk therapy, as much as psychiatrists and psychologists are doing their best to hold space for you, depending on who you get, you might not have a rapport or an understanding with them. Often, many of these people who are treating our veteran community and first responder community have no personal experience.
When you are sitting with medicine in any setting, the individuals who are administering the medicine, or the doctors and people who are around, are experienced with the medicine. There is empathy there. There is a different type of emotion that happens — a different type of safe space, if you will, that happens. That’s why the set and setting are so important. You can’t do this on your own. You wouldn’t expect to conduct psychiatry on your own — just learn by yourself and fix yourself. Sometimes you need a guide and extra support.
I, personally, feel that psychedelics are drastically different than talk therapy, and they can be used in conjunction with talk therapy. Ketamine and talk therapy are incredibly successful, as well as ibogaine mixed with talk therapy; there are uses for these tools in a clinical setting. That’s why they make them so powerful. It’s just another tool in the tool box, or in the handbag, of the doctor. That’s why we should be gaining access to it so that they cannot only learn about it, but they can also provide another tool — rather than just the few tools that we have been given, which are pharmaceuticals and talk therapy.
I hope that answers your question.
Senator Anderson: Thank you.
The Chair: Mr. McCourry, did you want to respond?
Mr. McCourry: Yes, I would. I mentioned that doing talk therapy at the VA was not effective. I had mentioned there was a lot of internal noise and interference that kept connection with the therapist.
In regard to MDMA-assisted psychotherapy, MDMA eliminates that interference that I was describing. The studies all show that MDMA activates the prefrontal cortex, then it reduces the part of the brain that is responsible for fear and anxiety — these types of responses. It basically reverses the effects of PTSD on the brain for a window of time, specifically six to eight hours.
During that six to eight hours, you can have really effective therapy because the brain is not interpreting the therapy and the situation like it typically would, and this leads to a lasting effect once the therapy is over.
Senator Yussuff: Ms. Sheren, thank you for coming here and sharing your stories. Mr. McCourry, thank you for being here and for being so candid about your experience.
There are two perspectives that I have. I’ll ask for your indulgence.
For some veterans, talk therapy does work and helps them get their life back together, but it’s not one-size-fits-all. The reality is — in the context of treating the challenges that veterans face when they come back from the experience of war — we need to have different approaches to help them because, ultimately, that’s the objective.
Given your experience with psychedelics, I imagine that you would be a strong advocate for the department taking a different approach — recognizing that the results are showing ample reasons why we should go down this road, and be much bolder in the funding and support for this therapy to be available to a broader spectrum of veterans who desire to do so, if they wish. Would that be a fair comment for me to make?
Mr. McCourry, would that also be a fair comment for you in the context of your experience in the United States?
Mr. McCourry: Yes, I believe that’s a fair comment.
Ms. Sheren: Absolutely, I think it’s a fair comment. I think that we have been doing things the same way since Vietnam, and expecting a different result — yet we still have a community that is plagued with alcoholism, abuse, drug abuse and struggles across the board with readjusting to society.
If we keep doing the same things and expecting a different result, that quite literally is the definition of insanity. I think that we can do better and, at the bare minimum, put funding toward something that we know is showing promising results — at multiple different universities, and on a grand scale across the board. Why wouldn’t we, at least, put a little more funding into it to find out? At the bare minimum, maybe we can stop having 44 suicides a day. What’s the risk? What’s the harm? Why not?
Senator Yussuff: Given your experience, it’s one that is very positive — and you are a testament to psychedelics’ effectiveness in helping veterans. If you have two things to recommend to our committee that we could recommend to the government, what would those two things be?
Ms. Sheren: Are you speaking toward legislation in terms of what I think should be done, or are you speaking along the lines of where funding should go specifically?
Senator Yussuff: Yes, funding, but I’m also speaking about the approach that could be advanced in a different way that has not been the case so far.
Ms. Sheren: Absolutely. Canada is a leader in many things but, somehow, we’re a little behind on this one, right? I think that this is echoed throughout the community: put more funding into research.
If you all are genuinely concerned, and you think the risk outweighs the reward, put more funding into research because it will prove it to you; we don’t have to do it. We have seen it with regard to many different universities. It’s been successful.
Anecdotally, the Heroic Hearts Project has worked with over 450 veterans. The success rate is astronomical. The proof is in the pudding. We’ll do the studies for you. We’ll give you the proof. Ultimately, we know what it’s going to say.
I would push forward with more funding, for sure, so that you can be more comfortable in what you are giving us access to.
Once you do provide access — because, ultimately, not only is it the right thing to do, but I think it’s also the fair and owed thing to do — be very careful in how you do that in terms of set and setting. Give access to doctors to learn properly how to administer this so that we don’t have issues down the road. Make sure people are prepared and run through the right programs.
TheraPsil does a ton of work in that space, so when doctors finally gain access and the chance to administer it to veterans, they know exactly what they are doing.
Senator Yussuff: Mr. McCourry, in terms of your experience in the United States — and the success that you are speaking to from your personal experience — if you have something to tell Canadians that we could do differently and better, what would that be?
Mr. McCourry: I think there are a lot of similarities between the Canadian and the American system as far as treating veterans and creating room for these substances to be used in therapeutic settings.
There are two things that I can think of that would apply to both Canada and the United States: The first is to provide funding for the studies that are occurring for these substances so that we can fast-track the results that are required, and so that other avenues of research can be explored — for instance, other ways that MDMA could potentially be used in therapy that would be more effective and allow for greater healing in more people, including group therapy using MDMA. I think there is a wide world of material to explore here, so government funding will be important for allowing all of that to be reasonably explored because, right now, it’s falling into the pocketbooks of private individuals.
The second thing — that will help enable this to reach veterans who need it — is to deschedule these substances by taking them off of the current drug schedule. For instance, in the United States, they are considered Schedule I drugs; they have no medical use, and they are highly addictive. But I think that the studies, at this point, have shown that they are not highly addictive — not in the case of MDMA or psilocybin — and that they do have medical use. Based on that, I think it would be a very fair action to take them off of the schedule that contradicts that. That alone would make it so much easier for individuals — who are even willing to do it out of private pocket — to conduct the research because the hoops that the groups have to go through to study these substances, right now, are so prohibitive that very few can jump through these hoops, and be able to achieve results where they can say, “See, this is effective,” or even if there is something that is not effective. We need the data. We need the science behind it. If we have these substances scheduled so that people can’t research them, that’s a huge problem. That’s one of the huge aspects that I think needs to be considered.
Ms. Sheren: The other thing that I want to put forward is it’s one thing to fund the research, but, again, once the research has done its job, we cannot be on our own to pay for these privately. Right now, it’s upwards of $6,500 for an individual to travel internationally to sit with medicine and do the work. Most veterans who need this aren’t working, and they cannot afford to do that. VAC would have to step up and fund this as if they were funding any other pharmaceutical intervention that they would be willing to provide.
Senator Yussuff: If I may, Ms. Sheren, I know it’s always difficult to share your experience, but the greater good that we are attempting to do on this committee is to try to find a way to advance the efforts of the research that is happening, but equally recognizing that there are far too many veterans who are not receiving the treatment to overcome PTSD, both here in Canada and in the United States. Obviously, we can only speak to the Canadian government, but your experience, I think, informs us in an intelligent way that could tremendously help what we are hoping to achieve, given the myriad testimony we have heard before the committee. Thank you very kindly for coming here. I hope you remain hopeful that we will figure this out, and do the right thing to help not only veterans like you, but also many others who are hoping to gain access to these types of treatments.
Similarly, Mr. McCourry, it’s truly a courageous effort on your part coming here today, but I want to thank you again on behalf of Canadian veterans who we’re hoping to help in the context of our work here on Veterans Affairs.
Mr. McCourry: Thank you very much.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: Ms. Sheren, you have great confidence in treatment with psychedelics. What do you see as the barriers to making this program available across the country? We’ve heard from Health Canada that the studies aren’t complete and that more research is needed. We have heard from people who have been treated with these substances and have had very good results. So I’m trying to understand what the barriers are to this program in Canada.
[English]
Ms. Sheren: Legislation. The problem is that we can’t legally gain access, and you want more research. You have research from Johns Hopkins, the Imperial College of London and from some of the top universities in the world that are looking at veterans on a daily basis. Not only are they administering these healing modalities and doing the research while it’s happening, but you are also seeing success across the board. If there were an issue with this, we wouldn’t have gotten this far for this long and not seen some type of evidence where it has gone sideways. It has almost never gone sideways. People are healing at a tremendous level, but the issue is we cannot gain access because our government is not allowing us. Our government is holding us back from moving forward and funding the research that the government needs to give us access.
We’re adults. We should be able to look after our well-being legally and safely, but when you withhold the ability to do so, we have to go outside of the country. We have to risk our freedoms, rights and the ability to treat ourselves. We risk everything to leave because we’re so desperate for help. That’s how bad it is — where I have to lie when going through Customs because I’m going to another country in South America, knowing that I could get stopped and that I could be held there because I was going to do a substance that’s illegal and I’m a Canadian citizen. But when we’re not given access — if you knew the community members and the struggles that they go through daily — we are willing to do anything and everything to save ourselves. If you could remove the barriers and just give us access within our own country — we’re not asking you to do the work. We will do the work. We always do the work, but we just need the right.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: When you say legislative barriers, what are you referring to?
[English]
Ms. Sheren: Psilocybin and MDMA are illegal. We can’t obtain them through a doctor unless we go through the Special Access Program, but the program is a very slow, drawn-out process. And I hate to break it to you, but there are a lot of Canadians who don’t have years or months — some have weeks; most have days. It is a one-foot-in-front-of-the-other type of life for people who are struggling to sleep, function, leave their homes or even be part of society at all. We need access. We need access now — not in three years, and not in five years — or you are going to have a lot more deaths.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: Thank you, that is very clear. Mr. McCourry, in your experience, to treat your post-traumatic shock, you used both methods: the traditional method with a heavy load of conventional chemical drugs and you also used psychedelic substances. Am I correct in stating this in this way?
[English]
Mr. McCourry: Yes, sir, it was.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: If I understand your testimony correctly, treatment with psychedelic substances has been much more effective than conventional medicine, that is, treatment with chemical medication, is that correct?
[English]
Mr. McCourry: Very much so, yes. It was a night and day difference, chiefly in that the psychedelic experience that I did was five sessions over the course of five months with some follow-up with a therapist, but I didn’t use the psychedelics after the five months. From that point on, I didn’t have to take any more medications, and it had a lasting effect — whereas with the therapy and traditional psychopharmaceuticals, the best I could hope for was having to take these drugs consistently for the rest of my life, as well as having the side effects that came along with them. The psychedelic therapy was considerably better for me.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: When did your treatment end?
[English]
Mr. McCourry: It was from June to October 2012.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: Do you consider your return to civilian life very balanced today?
[English]
Mr. McCourry: Very much so. It’s hard for me to relate to the person I was before going through that therapy because my PTSD symptoms were so severe. It controlled my life severely. A lot of the things that I was doing were irrational. I was looking out of windows and thinking that people were coming to get me — this intense paranoia. I can’t even relate to that right now. It’s difficult for me to try to understand where I was coming from at that time. There’s been a lasting improvement in the quality of my life.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: Have you been around brothers-in-arms who have had the same experiences as you have, starting with conventional treatments and moving on to treatments with psychedelic substances, for whom this has been successful?
[English]
Mr. McCourry: The study that I was in was a small group; it was limited to 20 individuals. I hesitated to refer other individuals when I was going through it at first because I was still waiting to see whether this study was going to be significant, and whether I should recommend it. In not recommending it, I lost a friend; he took his life. I think that if I had referred him to the study, there could have been a good chance that he wouldn’t have taken his life.
From that point on, I began referring people I knew who were suffering. There were two people, both Marines, whom I didn’t serve with personally, but whom I knew after my discharge. They had become friends. I referred them to the study. They both had surprisingly similar experiences to me, even though the source of their traumas from the military was different. It surprised me that their process and overall effects were so similar to mine.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: Thank you so much for your courage, and especially, I thank both of you for your honesty.
[English]
Senator M. Deacon: I think you’ve touched upon this, but I was wondering about the momentum. There’s momentum in the conversation, in the wonder and in the commitments around this type of treatment. You talked about legislation. Should our regulatory agencies fast-track approval for certain cases, like veterans, to get this ball rolling and moving even faster? You’ve touched upon it, but is there anything else you want to comment on related to that?
Ms. Sheren: This is such a dire situation. Because you are not deep in the community, or you don’t know a lot of veterans or first responders, you might not see how dire it truly is. I live, eat, sleep and breathe this community every single day. I answer the phone at all times of the night. We check on people because it’s constant, it’s overflowing and it’s out of control.
We talk about epidemics, and we throw that word around a lot right now, but this is the definition. This is a problem. This needs to be fast-tracked. It has to be fast-tracked for veterans, first responders and RCMP members — because, if you don’t, you are not going to see progress. You are going to continue to see people hurting, flatlining on pharmaceutical drugs and drinking too much. The divorce rate is through the roof. People are not successful at reintegrating into society. We have something that works, and we know it.
Mr. McCourry spoke about his friends, and how he was hesitant to refer the study to people — because we don’t know. I have been fortunate enough to sit with the Canadian Rangers, Delta Force, Navy SEALs, Joint Task Force 2 members, Canadian members and British members in multiple different settings. This is working across the board with everyone. We refer it because it’s the only thing that is working.
I have never touched a pharmaceutical drug in any form since psychedelic-assisted therapy. This can work. You need to untie our hands, and let us save ourselves because we don’t need you to save us — just give us the access we need.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
I’m going to ask Mr. McCourry a quick question. Do you know whether these drugs are more readily available in the United States than in Canada? I will pose the question to you too, Ms. Sheren.
Mr. McCourry: I’m not sure. Do you mean in a medical sense or in a street sense?
The Chair: I’m not talking about the street sense. I’m talking about the medical sense and the therapy that is given. Do you know if it’s more prevalent in the United States than it is in Canada? I’m opening the question up to either of you, if you know.
Mr. McCourry: I’m not sure. I really couldn’t say. I do know that in the United States, it’s challenging. The studies are very small, so the chance of getting into a study and gaining access is minuscule. It’s difficult to access these medications and therapies.
Ms. Sheren: Absolutely. That’s why I was forced to travel internationally on my own dime.
The Chair: Thank you very much to the both of you. This brings us to the end of today’s meeting. I extend sincere gratitude to you both. Your openness in sharing these lived experiences is incredibly important to us. Thank you for your service, and for the sacrifices that both of you have made for your countries. Thank you very much.
(The committee adjourned.)