THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON VETERANS AFFAIRS
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Wednesday, October 9, 2024
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs met with videoconference this day at 12:01 p.m. [ET] to examine and report on issues relating to Veterans Affairs, including services and benefits provided, commemorative activities, and the continuing implementation of the Veterans Well-being Act.
Senator Rebecca Patterson (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Good afternoon, honourable senators, and welcome to this meeting of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs.
Before I begin, I would like to ask all senators and other persons who are participating in this meeting to consult the cards on the table in front of you. This is to prevent audio feedback incidents which cause challenges for our interpreters. Thank you for your cooperation.
I’m Rebecca Patterson. I’m a senator from Ontario and the chair of this subcommittee. I’m joined today by my fellow senators, and I will have them introduce themselves.
Senator Richards: Hi. I’m Dave Richards from New Brunswick.
Senator Yussuff: Hassan Yussuff from Ontario.
Senator M. Deacon: Welcome. Marty Deacon, Ontario.
Senator McNair: Welcome. John McNair, New Brunswick.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Before welcoming today’s fabulous witnesses, I would like to issue a content warning for this meeting. Today, our subcommittee is studying veterans’ homelessness, and there will be sensitive subjects discussed, including trauma related to military service. Homelessness and gender-based violence might be discussed. These topics might be triggering to people in the room with us as well as those watching and listening to the broadcast.
Mental health support for all Canadian is available by phone and text at 988. If you are a veteran, you can call 1-800-268-7708 to speak to a mental health professional right now. Senators and parliamentary employees are also reminded that the Senate Employees and Family Assistance Program is available to them and offers short-term counselling for both personal and work-related concerns, as well as crisis counselling.
I would now like to welcome to our subcommittee the following witnesses: Warren Maddox, Executive Director, Fredericton Homeless Shelters; Glenn Morgan, Assistant Executive Director, Good Shepherd Ministries; and by video conference, we have James Hughes, President and Chief Executive Officer, Old Brewery Mission; and Morgane Huguet, Assistant Director, Operations, Development and Housing Support Services, Old Brewery Mission. Thank you all for joining us today.
We’re going to begin by inviting you to provide opening remarks, to be followed by questions from the senators. I will tell you that this is a very short meeting. We always wish we could have you for much longer than we do. We provide for opening comments of five minutes, and our clerk will signal you to let you know you’re coming to the end of your time. If you do not have time to add all of your points, please know that you can include anything that you are missing in your responses to our senators when we do our question round, or you may submit them in writing to the clerk.
With that, we would like to begin our opening comments with Mr. Warren Maddox. Over to you.
Warren Maddox, Executive Director, Fredericton Homeless Shelters: I want to begin by thanking you for the opportunity to be here today. I will tell you a bit about who we are, what we do and why our voice is the voice of those who are well and truly at the bottom.
In our experience, we see mostly male vets and very few female vets. We mostly see CAF and very few RCMP. I’m the leader of an exceptional group of people who make up Fredericton Homeless Shelters, Inc., simply known as “the shelters.”
Many years ago, we established a working relationship with our local VAC case workers. In fact, one of them had been the manager of my women’s shelter. With any relationship, it takes work and commitment on the part of both parties. This relationship developed without the funding that we currently see from the Veteran and Family Well-being Fund. That relationship, however, would lay the critical groundwork for our first application and subsequent funding.
We developed a program for vets in close consultation with our local VAC contacts. We looked closely at each other’s strengths and, more importantly, our weaknesses. We developed our program to help vets by complementing the work that was being done by VAC. We discussed where they have their biggest challenge, and we moved into that space. We became the access point for western New Brunswick. We committed to guaranteeing that there would always be a bed for a vet. A major part of what we do is to be that first point of contact for a vet coming into the system. By being there, we take a great deal of stress off the VAC staff and, of course, the vet.
Our system is not exactly the same as other agencies in the country. We are not a housing-first agency. We use a system that I created several years ago called “the continuum.” This operational model is adaptive and allows for evolution as changes happen in our society. Although I created the model, it is my staff and some community partners who helped define it and move it forward.
We work with people to give get them stabilized, connected and supported before we look for housing. It is a simple matter that, for some people we are getting — most people, actually — they need quite a bit of help before they will be able to find a successful housing outcome. Our niche is getting them stabilized and connected. As we worked with VAC on our first application years ago, this is one of the areas identified as where we could create the greatest impact.
We are able to move faster than VAC when first encountering a homeless vet. Once VAC gets going, they are a force of nature, but it takes a little while. We are able to get the vet into a shelter so they have a bed, support services and programs; they are able to connect with VAC, spend time with our mental health counsellor, work with our transition planner and have the full care and support of our front-line people. In other words, they have found a safe harbour.
Normally, we work with two, three or maybe four vets at any one time, one in-house and a few whom we are supporting on their journey out of homelessness. The past few months have been odd and disturbing. When I wrote this two days ago, we were working with seven vets, and it is now eight. Three are in shelter; one is on the way; one is at a sister agency shelter; one is in our transitional space; one’s whereabouts are unknown, but they are continuing to reach out to us, which is great; and one who is inbound from a VAC referral, but it is still early and the information is developing. Literally, we had another call come in last night.
Our programming and our model have been critical in achieving a functional zero status for veteran homelessness. We have been able to help many people with support of the VAC and the Veteran and Family Well-being Fund. Since 2021, we have had 32 vets and 1 RCMP.
The guys we are currently working with are very challenging. There is a significant degree of mental health issues, and there are some addictions. It’s fairly safe to say that our current group have burnt many bridges before arriving at our door. Our role is to be that last bridge.
I would like to leave you today with a couple of thoughts. First, the relationship we have with VAC is very strong and very effective. Second, we have found a missing link in recovery for many vets in the east. The missing link is to have a recovery centre, one that will work with people with addictions and/or crippling mental health issues. As I said to the Deputy Minister of VAC early this year when he was in for a visit, it doesn’t have to be overly expensive. A big old farm house with a few acres of land and some forest is all you really need. It’s all you really need because the important part is people — the supports, both professional and peer. There is currently no such facility that I know of in Atlantic Canada. This is an easily deliverable program that will help vets. There are a number of agencies beyond us that have the capacity to deliver this program with the support of the federal government.
I want to sincerely thank you for allowing me some time today. It is an honour to be with such organizations as my friends at the Old Brewery Mission and the Good Shepherd Ministries. I have a great deal of respect for both agencies, as I do for Veterans Affairs Canada, or VAC, and the great people working there. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much. I will now pass the microphone to Mr. Morgan. Please go ahead.
Glenn Morgan, Assistant Executive Director, Good Shepherd Ministries: Thank you. My name is Glenn Morgan. I am the assistant executive director at Good Shepherd Ministries in Toronto. We have over 60 years of experience providing services to the homeless adult population in Toronto.
Our mission is to support the homeless and the most neglected members of our community. We offer a wide range of compassionate programs and services aimed at enhancing the quality of life, inspiring hope and promoting human dignity. Our vision is to alleviate the effects of poverty and to work toward ending chronic homelessness in our community.
We began focusing on homeless veterans after a one-day survey conducted in 2010 which included 669 clients. Of those surveyed, 9.7%, or 65 individuals, identified themselves as veterans.
Following this survey, the City of Toronto integrated questions about homeless veterans into its regular Street Needs Assessment survey. In 2021, after a one-day count, the estimated homeless population was 7,347, of which, 5%, or 367, reported having served in the Canadian military or RCMP. Of the 367 veterans, 52 were estimated to be sleeping outdoors.
The next City of Toronto Street Needs Assessment is scheduled for the last week of October 2024, with results expected to be published in the second quarter of 2025. Currently, Toronto’s homeless population is estimated at 10,503. Given the average prevalence rate in the last three surveys, it is safe to assume that there could be a significant number of homeless veterans on the streets and in the shelters of Toronto.
We began adjusting our case-management efforts to address veterans’ needs. The following are the key areas where veterans require assistance: access to affordable and appropriate housing; securing basic needs such as income, identification, shelter, and physical and mental health supports; housing and after-care support; and crisis intervention.
Since 2010, we have provided case management and housing assistance to over 300 veterans. Currently, we offer comprehensive support to 32 veterans. Last year, our partnership with Helmets to Hardhats provided 12 veterans with employment service. At present, seven homeless veterans are enrolled in the training program.
We have recently entered into a funding agreement with Infrastructure Canada to expand our support for homeless veterans in Toronto. This four-year project aims to prevent and reduce veteran homelessness, assist with eviction prevention and promote long-term housing stability. We anticipate that this partnership will help an additional 200 veterans with their housing needs.
I thank you for this opportunity.
To go off script a little bit — the chair did say to leave you with one parting message — we have had tremendous support from VAC. However, the programs that we have entered into have always been temporary. They have been three- or four-year projects, and the difficulty is that there have always been homeless veterans to take care of, so we end up cobbling together other programs to try to knit everything together so that there is continuity of service. If I were to leave you with one parting message, it would be that we would appreciate it if it were to become a base program and that funding was continuous. That would help all the veterans that are suffering in Toronto. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you. Mr. James Hughes, delivering remarks on behalf of the Old Brewery Mission, the floor is yours.
James Hughes, President and Chief Executive Officer, Old Brewery Mission: Thank you very much. My name is James Hughes. As the chair said, I’m the president and CEO of the Old Brewery Mission. We are an organization that has been serving people experiencing homelessness in Montreal for, now, 135 years. We’ve been around for a long time. I’m very proud to be CEO, but maybe I’ll also mention, because there are some New Brunswickers in the room, that I spent a number of years there as the deputy minister of social services. I left a little bit of my heart in that province, and I just love it. I’d also just like to say to Mr. Maddox that we feel the same way about your organization.
The Old Brewery is the largest organization serving homeless people in Montreal, as well as people at risk of homelessness. Our three major orientations are, indeed, prevention of homelessness, which is maybe a topic we would like to discuss together over the course of the afternoon, as well as emergency services and housing. We actually call that rehousing. Most people that we support have been housed, and we have got to get them back into housing.
We support about a thousand people per day across this suite of services in 15 facilities and with 300 employees. It’s an organization that has grown massively, as so many have over the course of COVID, and, unfortunately, it will continue to grow because the need is so great. In Montreal, there are 5,000 people that will be homeless tonight, minimum.
Just before passing the microphone over to my dear colleague Ms. Huguet, I’ll say that according to the last street count, just like in Toronto, 5% of the population here were deemed veterans. We have a spectacular program called Les Sentinelles, which has been supporting veterans since 2017, and Ms. Huguet will tell you all about it. Thank you very much.
[Translation]
Morgane Huguet, Assistant Director, Operations, Development and Housing Support Services, Old Brewery Mission: Good afternoon. My name is Morgane Huguet, and I’m the Assistant Director of Housing Support Services at the Old Brewery Mission. It’s my privilege to tell you about a program called Les Sentinelles.
This program is for homeless and near-homeless Canadian Armed Forces veterans. It was created in 2017, so we’ve been working on it for almost eight years now.
The main thing we offer is psychosocial support. We have a dedicated mobile team of people who can go out to where veterans are. They try to work where veterans live, guide them toward housing and, most importantly, help them stay housed.
Housing veterans also creates an opportunity to provide financial support for that first grocery shop and furniture. There’s also a small subsidy for rent. Our support is not time-limited. Our goal is to support veterans as they pursue housing stability.
Our clientele is highly diverse. We serve both young and old, people with mental and physical issues, addiction issues, financial precariousness, isolation and long-time homelessness or near-homelessness.
Our program goals are threefold.
First, we work hard at finding good ways to identify veterans, because there’s no sure way to tell which members of society are homeless veterans.
Second, we strive to support personal autonomy and break the cycle of homelessness so we can help people build long-term connections.
Last, we support veterans’ housing stability by building a safety net around them so they don’t end up back on the streets.
This program has helped some 50 veterans since 2017, and 90% of our participants are currently housed.
Thank you for the opportunity to speak.
The Chair: Thank you.
[English]
We will now proceed to questions. In order to maximize the number of questions in the time we have, there will be four minutes allotted for each question, including the answer. I ask my colleagues to keep their questions succinct and that they identify the witness to whom their question is directed. I would like to offer the first question to our deputy chair, Senator Richards.
Senator Richards: Thank you, everyone, for being here today.
Mr. Maddox, you spoke about burning bridges. Those veterans who are coming into your shelter must be at their wits’ end. They must have been suffering from PTSD for a long time, and recurring bouts of it. I’m just wondering, how do you deal with this initially? How do you deal with a veteran like this initially when they come in?
Mr. Maddox: For the most part, we, like our two colleagues, would run a prevention and diversion program to find out if they do in fact need to be in the shelter. That means reaching out to family and natural supports to see if there is still a bridge left for them. In some cases, there is, but in most cases, there isn’t. Then we bring them in and our model, the continuum, is to start working with them within 24 hours.
The first people they meet will be the manager of the men’s shelter and the transition planner. Their roles are to put the baggage out on the table to see what we have to do, what connections we have to make and what kinds of challenges we are dealing with. Are there addiction issues, et cetera? Once we move past that point and have a view of who this person is, then our mental health counsellor will start working with them to deal with issues they are having — whether it’s post-traumatic stress disorder, depression or anxiety.
Glenn and I were chatting earlier about the fact that addictions aren’t the biggest issues we are dealing with; it’s mental health, pure and is simple. Senator, you and Senator McNair know that the mental health system in New Brunswick is somewhat less than optimal. Trying to achieve stability for them is a huge challenge.
We look at that stabilization aspect initially, and then we start looking at where their housing option is going to be. Is it going to be one of our transitional apartments, or is it going out into potentially subsidized units? Actually, we have the most success from market-based units. We put them in there, and then our housing support team starts working with them. From the time a vet rings the doorbell, we will hold on to them for about a year after we have installed them into permanent housing in order to make sure everything stays on the rails.
Senator Richards: Thank you very much.
If there were a permanent national government program to assist you, do you think that would be advantageous, or do you think bureaucracy would get involved? You seem to be so hands-on. If it were to become too bureaucratic, how would that be handled?
Mr. Maddox: Bureaucracy is just one of those things we take for granted. There is always going to be a degree of it. Like my colleagues, I don’t shy away from accountability. It benefits our organizations greatly. We have no problem with that at all.
As Glenn was mentioning earlier, having something we don’t have to apply for all the time would be wonderful. Not that I don’t love working on 14- or 15-page applications, but it would be nice to do one and have it go, and then have accountability on a quarterly basis or a biannual basis, whatever is effective. Right now, it’s confusing for us because we have one master, which is Veterans Affairs, and we have another master, which is Housing, Infrastructure and Communities Canada — a wholly different beast. It would be nice to stay under Veterans Affairs, where we think the logical connector is.
Senator Richards: Thanks very much.
The Chair: Thank you very much. That’s excellent.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you all for being here, both in person and virtually. I have some questions. I’m not sure they will come out as coherently as I would like. I want to throw them out and hear from each of you or all of you.
One of the things we heard about, which I want to understand more, is whether the folks that are coming your way who have served are self-identifying. Are they comfortable with self-identifying? Is this an area that continues to be a challenge so that we can get at the people we need to support?
Is your data telling you that these folks are coming within months or a year or two of finishing duty? Or are you seeing — as time goes on — that they are coming three, six or ten years afterward? So, they have a good start, but then things fall apart?
Before I finish, Mr. Morgan, we would be happy to obtain the needs assessment report from you in the new year, because it would be timely for the work we’re doing.
I’m going to start there. If you could perhaps chime in, that would be great. I’ll then probe a bit.
Mr. Morgan: In many cases, the people we encounter don’t identify themselves as veterans. It’s up to us to tell them that there are some things they are eligible for, even after basic training. As my colleague said, we do the assessment, we have a clinic on site and we have a psychiatrist that can help. But to answer your question, some vets do not self-identify. You have to tease that out of them.
In terms of time, it tends to be a five-year cycle, after which things start to unravel a bit for them. Depression sets in, things like that, and they have difficulty adjusting to civilian life.
Yes, by all means, we’ll give you the information on the street needs assessment when it’s ready later this month.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you.
Mr. Maddox: I agree with what Glenn said. In about 30% of the cases, we have to tease it out of them. It’s a matter of time. Then it’s about developing a rapport with our staff. They are coming in to us in a paranoid state, occasionally delusional, with depression or anxiety — those are the common big ones. Sometimes it takes awhile for them to start trusting us and becoming comfortable with us, and then we’ll go from there.
The Point-in-Time, or PiT, Counts will be coming out in New Brunswick in November, which will probably be ready around spring of next year. We will be able to capture data in that one as well. In our province, that’s done by the Human Development Council in Saint John, and I’m sure it’s done elsewhere.
We are getting vets from all across the spectrum, from those who have been out for two or three years to those who really weren’t aware that they were a vet until much later in life. They stumble up, and we sit down and ask the question. It’s a bit of a spectrum, but it closely resembles what Glenn is seeing in Toronto.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you. Do you have anything else to add, Mr. Hughes or Ms. Huguet?
Mr. Hughes: Morgane can maybe speak to the profile of some of the folks coming in. The question about the duration of time between service and actually knocking on the front doors of the emergency facilities is a great one. We’ll hear from Morgane on that.
Identification is probably the single biggest issue with respect to providing support to veterans. There is a general reluctance by veterans to put up their hand and say they are a former member of the Armed Forces in whatever capacity. You have to ask yourself the question: Why are they so reluctant to do so? There are two reasons that are mostly given.
First, they are part of the class of those who take care of others, not that others need to take care of them. There is the shame of saying they’re a former member of the services because that almost goes against their personal identity. That identity issue is complicated.
The other reason is almost exactly the opposite. They had a terrible experience with the Armed Forces. They weren’t supported when they needed it. They had an onset of mental illness or chronic addiction issues. They weren’t supported when they need it, so they refuse to be associated with it anymore.
In some cases, it is both the hate and the shame all at the same time. It’s a complicated issue. It will be on a case-by-case basis.
We have the capacity to support about 30 people in our program at any one time, but we know the need is about 5% of that minimum 5,000 people. It’s in the hundreds, and we’re only helping in the dozens. That difference is the difference between the number of people who are actually putting up their hand to say, “I am a veteran, and I need help.”
[Translation]
Ms. Huguet may want to add to that?
Ms. Huguet: I don’t have specific statistics about how much time passes between the end of a person’s military service and them becoming homeless and deciding to accept help. You can’t pick a veteran out of the general population based on something about their face that says they’re a veteran.
We do a lot around awareness. We ask about this in our referral forms when we first make contact, and we ask people directly because they may not self-identify as a veteran. We do a lot of work with our emergency and prevention services and our partners. We emphasize the importance of asking the question, but not by asking people if they’re veterans, because some don’t identify as veterans. We have to choose our words carefully and ask people if they were part of the Canadian Armed Forces. That way, they’re more likely to say that they did indeed serve in the Canadian Forces than if we use the word “veteran”. Word choice matters.
[English]
Senator Yussuff: Thank you to all the witnesses.
Let me start by thanking you for the incredible good work you do on behalf of the country and also for veterans. You are in the shadows, and I think you can provide us with insight as to how our committees work and lead to some fundamental changes.
I have heard different things, and I don’t want to interrupt the good relationship you have with VAC in terms of what you are doing, but, obviously, funding for the work you do is critical, and consistent funding for that work is vital to your success but also for the people who show up at your doorstep looking for help.
We have heard directly from some veterans who came to our committee and talked about their experience with VAC and how they learn about programs and what’s available, but from many of the people coming to your program, that’s not where they start. They come to your doors, and you are informing them that they are entitled to some services.
In the context of what you could share with us, is there anything you think VAC could do to improve when veterans leave the Armed Forces and how they should be aware of their fundamental understanding that they have some services available to them and how they can access those services across the country, recognizing quite often that you are seeing people four or five years after they have been out of the service? There is a big gap between that reality and their life, and then what VAC could do to improve how we help service these veterans once they leave the Armed Forces.
Mr. Morgan: We had that conversation just prior to the meeting, the off boarding of military service into civilian life. It would be a great advantage to any veteran if there were a base program to say, “If you are having difficulty, please reach out to such and such agency in the area that you are in.” Sometimes they feel as though they have been pushed out without the tools that people need to get adjusted. There could be a better off boarding program that allows them to know that there is help even beyond their time in the military.
Mr. Maddox: I would echo that as well. We were chatting about the off boarding. The military spends a lot of time in terms of getting a soldier ready to do what engagements may need to be done. You are taking somebody who is a normal citizen, and you have to teach them how to kill. You have to get through that mental barrier that is bred into us from the time we are children. They are very good at that. Where I think they struggle is in terms of rebuilding back the civilian.
In our case, it is interesting that we are getting more and more referrals from Veterans Affairs where a case manager is working with an individual and they are going to crash out of wherever they are. We will get a call from the case manager at VAC who says, “I have so-and-so. They are on the way out. What can you do?” Our commitment to them is, “Where are they? We’ll bring them,” and get them into the shelter and then start working with them and get them stabilized and back out the door again as quickly as we can.
Our model is that we don’t just plop somebody into an apartment and hope it goes well, because it usually doesn’t. We spend some time with them and get them reconnected to the world around them, and then get them into housing and then support them for a year after that.
VAC has been very good. We have learned over the years, as I said in my opening statement, that building the initial relationship is critical. We know each other’s lane. We know what each other is going to do. We know there are limitations. We know the capacity. We are comfortable with our relationship, and it is pretty effective.
The Chair: I think this is an important question. Though we are going a little over, this is a great answer. Are you okay if I pass it to the Old Brewery team and give them a chance to respond as well? Thank you. We’ll come back to this. I think it is going to be a good question. Please go ahead.
Mr. Hughes: Thank you. I agree. It is a great question. In many ways, it is “the” question.
Let’s face it. If you are knocking on the door of the Fredericton shelters or Good Shepherd or Old Brewery, you are inviting the re-traumatizing or intensification of a trauma already lived. Being homeless is not easy. It is hard. We know the morbidity/mortality rates of people who are homeless. We want to avoid it at all costs. Actually developing prevention orientations for individuals being discharged from the services is a pivotal piece of policy that needs to be developed.
At Old Brewery, as I mentioned before, we have prevention programs, but they depend on partnerships with expertise in the areas that are generating homelessness: people leaving provincial prisons, people who are asylum seekers, people leaving treatment and so on. There is no difference at all with the Armed Forces, no difference at all.
There are tools that can be used to identify risk of homelessness. Here in Quebec, we use a tool, an instrument that we can supply some information on, that can assess in an objective way homelessness risk. Then you can intervene upstream in a way that helps create a relationship before reaching the doors of an emergency facility and accompanying that person on a journey towards community housing that is more appropriate and safer, overall better than anything they could possibly — as good as the organizations are, as professional as they are, we all want what you and I have. We want that for our veterans as well, even if they are at imminent risk.
I think the time has come for developing good prevention policy.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator McNair: As my colleague Senate Yussuff said, thank you to the participants for being here and for the work you do on homelessness and particularly today’s topic, the work with vets.
Warren, you mentioned that you are not a housing-first agency. You take a safe harbour approach traditionally.
Before I get into that, it is refreshing to hear very positive comments from all of you with respect to Veterans Affairs. We don’t hear that at this committee very often. I appreciate that.
Help me understand the process on what you do when a veteran shows up at one of your shelters, a veteran who has identified as a veteran. How do you get Veterans Affairs engaged if they are not already? What, in particular, do you do?
Mr. Maddox: With us, once they have gone through the prevention and diversion specialist who meets them at the door — again, some will not identify for a few weeks, and then we figure it out. Once we do, that starts a process that we have worked out with VAC. We have a consent form and another form that we get the person to fill out, authorizing us to share information about them with VAC. Usually, they say, “Yes, whatever. It will lead to a good outcome, so it’s great.”
We then send the two documents off to VAC. They get back to us very quickly. The longest would be two or three days. They say, “Yes. You have a veteran. It is legit. What are we going to do?” We then start working with the case managers at VAC, trying to assess where this guy is on his journey. Is he at the beginning, the end, the middle? How messed up is he? What are we going to do to get it squared away?
VAC are doing what they do on their end, which is looking at the longer-term picture and how we are going to move this person forward. Are they getting the payments, the pension, et cetera? On our front, what we are trying to do is assess if there is a drug issue. If not, great. Then it’s a mental health issue. We then start working with them.
With some vets, they are pretty comfortable in the environment we have. We have a big dorm-style room. It looks ugly, but it actually works. Some of them find comfort there. They have that environment in their heads from their years in the military. Some really don’t find that comfort there and are not going to make it there. In those cases, we find alternatives. We put them in a motel. We had one guy last winter who had a camper van. Not great, but we ran a power cord out the window, plugged it in, and he was good to go. He was literally connected to the shelter. We gave him food cards and gas cards. He would come in and shower and do whatever. We eventually got him into housing, which is where he needed to go.
We move at a rate that is built for them as opposed to a rate that is fabricated by us or VAC or whoever. You can’t force them into something. You let them go, and as they walk along that journey, our job is to be there with them, to hold their hand, pat them on the shoulder or, every once in a while, give them a kick in the butt. For the most part, we are trying to move at their pace into the housing, whether it’s our transitional unit where we have one vet, potentially two, and then from there on out.
It’s a support service from the time they ring the doorbell up to a year after they’ve left the shelter. It takes a lot of work and a fair amount of money, but the critical elements are all there — the supports and the people. Certainly, I have a number of what we call flex funds that allow us to do whatever we want with the money to make sure that if you need IDs, first month’s rent, a damage deposit, a gas card, a grocery card or have your truck fixed, whatever it is, it comes to me and I say yes or no and away it goes. Often I’m known as “Dr. No,” but occasionally I get over that with the vets and we help them out. There are a lot of different things.
Having the ability to move quickly is our strength, whereas VAC, as I said in my opening remarks, they are slower, but once they get going, they’re something. They’re great and they care. The people who we work with are really decent human beings who are easy to work with, but there’s stuff they can do and stuff they can’t do. In some regards, we’re managing the expectations of the vets. They’re not going to move the world for you, but they can help, and that’s where we fit in.
Senator McNair: Thank you.
The Chair: That’s excellent.
I’m going to take chair’s prerogative here. I’m very interested to hear more. Each one of you mentioned Infrastructure Canada. There is some indication there.
The next thing I’m going to add is we know that veterans’ identities are starting to change. There is what we classically think of as a veteran, sort of a White male. Now, we know that as more women are entering the RCMP and the Canadian Armed Forces, more Indigenous people, more visible minorities and people who come from the 2SLGBTQIA+ community, their housing needs are different.
I have two questions. As you are looking at how to help transition them in each of your different domains into more secure housing programs, how are you identifying these people? In terms of what Infrastructure Canada is doing for you, are they helping to fund the unique needs of these populations who are often terribly hard to find? Why don’t we start with the Old Brewery, and then we’ll move forward. Please, go ahead.
Mr. Hughes: I think Morgane may be better placed than me to speak to that great question.
[Translation]
Ms. Huguet: Most of the people in the program right now are men. We don’t really have any women yet. That’s not because we’re not trying to raise awareness, but we haven’t really reached that population yet, even though we know it’s out there.
To take an individual’s needs into account and adapt housing as much as we can, we have to assess where the person is at, as we discussed earlier. Does the person need to go through a transition phase and start by participating in programs with more supervision, then move into adaptive and independent housing? We can do a holistic assessment and partner with the Old Brewery Mission because we have a range of housing programs tailored to the individual’s level of independence. We try to come at it from where the person’s at and what their needs are. We take time to work with them and help them progress toward independence.
We look at all aspects of housing once the individual is housed. Infrastructure Canada provides some of our funding and enables us to get that all-important subsidy so we can set individuals up with equipment specific to their needs. We also have to figure out what kind of furniture and groceries they need and what housing subsidy is appropriate for their income. It’s very important to be able to adapt that housing subsidy.
As of now, the subsidy lasts for three years. It should last longer, because some veterans need more time to achieve stability. Three years is a real challenge. Unfortunately, we can’t expect people to achieve stability in just three years, especially because our support isn’t time-limited. It’s not a realistic challenge. We have to adapt to their needs for as long as possible.
[English]
The Chair: Mr. Morgan or Mr. Maddox, would you like to add to that? I’m trying to understand this relationship with Infrastructure Canada in terms of veterans in general, but particularly those with intersections of identity that make them more challenging to find in the first place, as Morgane has said.
Mr. Morgan: Similar to Montreal, most of the vets that we are dealing with are men. It is a diversity of people, but again, like my colleagues have said, you are client centred. We don’t come with a set program. We work with them to figure out what is going to work for them.
In terms of how we are connected to the veterans, in Toronto, we’re lucky enough to have a good network among the shelters. We have outreach workers go out to each shelter and take referrals of those who have been identified at other shelters to come into our program. We also have a strong connection to the local legion. They’re well aware of our work, and they will also refer people to us.
One of the things I would like to add is that we do just about everything else that my colleagues do, but we also have veterans on staff as peer support. We do a lot of group therapy. It seems to really help, especially in anxious moments, to hear that they’re going through the same things that others are going through.
To echo what has been said, there are people who are on rent subsidy, and it does take time. It’s not a cookie-cutter approach. If the program ends in four years, there could be some who are left that we have to try to transition into another program. That’s the biggest challenge that we have.
Of course, in terms of Infrastructure Canada, they keep us accountable. They are the ones who we have entered into the agreement and set some reporting parameters with, as well as the metrics they would like to see to ensure that their money is going to its purpose.
The Chair: Thank you very much. Mr. Maddox, I’ll give you the last minute.
Mr. Maddox: It is pretty much the same things James and Glenn have said in terms of dealing with the individuals.
Our relationship with Infrastructure Canada is a very new one, and it started off a little strained just in terms of some of the conditions they wanted within the contract that we couldn’t deliver. It was a little strained at the beginning. There were some tense meetings, as I tend to deliver now and again, but we sort of got that ironed out, I think, and we’re now seeing how that relationship will develop. They are very much different than what we’re used to certainly with VAC and with Service Canada and the Reaching Home funds. That’s a work-in-progress. Talk to me in a year, and we’ll see how that’s going.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Colleagues, we will now go to three minutes so we can get in as much as we can in the remaining time.
Senator M. Deacon: I want to ask a question, and I think I might just be a little vulnerable with it. It’s something I have wondered, and I think you folks might be able to give me some insight.
For a number of years, my role was to be in a homeless shelter looking after and visiting my stepfather. Every week, I went to London, Owen Sound or Toronto, and I would spend time in and around a homeless shelter. I learned many things. I learned that there is a culture within the culture of these shelters. You would watch and listen and discover there is even a hierarchy, like other institutions. I wonder today if you can give me any insight for vets who are in homeless shelters. Do they keep it to themselves? Are they treated in a hierarchical way because they served their country? I hate to use generalizations, but it is something I have been thinking about as I’ve been listening to the witnesses. There is an incredible guy who comes and is the spokesperson for the third floor. There are some real dynamics, which is quite something to see first-hand. I’m wondering if you can tell me if there is anything unique or specific, once we have folks in and they are getting the supports, in what it might look like in the way they link with others in homeless shelters or institutions?
The Chair: Who would like to answer first?
Mr. Morgan: Well, in terms of hierarchy within the shelters, we try to keep behaviours in check. There are rules. We do consider ourselves to still be low barrier, but if there are safety risks to staff and others, then we will look for a different way to accommodate. We are lucky enough to have a program that is in a hotel that allows for isolation, if you will, for those who are having difficulty in the larger setting. Sometimes we do refer them to a hospital if the behaviour is terribly bad, but I don’t think you are getting to those kinds of behaviours. The veterans that we’ve encountered tend to be quite quiet about their past or, if they are in a shelter, why they are in the shelter. I hope that answers your question.
Senator M. Deacon: That’s helpful. Thank you.
The Chair: I’m terribly sorry. I’m going to give you another chance because we are coming up to the hour. For the remaining senators, I’m going to have you all ask your questions at once, and then you can go back and continue to answer Senator Deacon’s question and potentially add some more responses to my colleagues as well.
Senator Yussuff: Infrastructure Canada takes one quarter of the resources they get for administration. They get a pile of money, and one quarter of that goes for their administration. That money doesn’t get to veterans because they use that. Given the challenges we face in dealing with veterans’ needs across the country, especially around homelessness, I’m still at a loss to understand this logic, why one quarter of the money, when it seems to me that if you had one place to shopping, you would go to VAC and say, “Here are my needs; help me fulfill those needs.”
Mr. Maddox, I heard you say — I was trying to reflect on this — that it would be very good to have a recovery centre in our community because it would solve a lot of needs. I recognize that for a lot of the veterans throughout the country, whether it is in Montreal or Toronto or whatever location, recovery is a critical element of getting their lives back to normal. If we don’t have recovery centres, how do we help them get their lives back? If you can comment in general on your thoughts, we will reflect on what we put in the report.
Senator Richards: Again, thank you for being here today.
My question was answered, but then I jotted down another question. We did a study last year about the effects of certain drugs to mitigate the trouble with PTSD and anxiety and depression. One was psilocybin, another was MDMA, and then there was cannabis. We had various witnesses from the United States military and the Canadian military who said they would be lost and in despair if they didn’t have these drugs. I haven’t dealt with the military on hand like you have, so I’m wondering what your thoughts would be about this, these drugs to help mitigate depression, anxiety and, as one person said, thoughts of suicide.
Senator McNair: My colleague Senator Yussuff talked about the recovery centre. Mr. Maddox, you had said it was the missing link that you had found. Mr. Morgan and Mr. Hughes, I guess a missing link for you may have been the Helmets to Hardhats program. I would like to get more detail in writing on how successful it has been, funding whether from the feds and the province or one or the other, and what other resources could possibly help you.
The Chair: We have five minutes left. We’ll start with the Old Brewery, if you would like to grab some time and cover the pieces you would like, and then we will go to our remaining witnesses and let you have the final words.
Mr. Hughes: I can cover a couple of those items.
First of all, very sorry to the senator who had to spend time in the shelter system. That’s a tough story. You learned a lot, though, and you’re absolutely right that there are cultures and subcultures in every organization, including ours and our colleagues’ for sure.
Just as a reminder, and I think this would be common certainly in our cities, we don’t want people to spend any time here in the shelter system. We want them out to a better place where they can build community and build relationships. Programs such as the Sentinels program, as Morgane said, have huge success in ensuring no recidivism precisely because there is community support in housing to make sure people can help rebuild their lives. That is just a reflection on that.
Maybe I will add that we try not to call ourselves a shelter anymore. This idea of sheltering — this is not trying to be at all judgmental, au contraire, but we are trying to move beyond this idea that an organization serving homeless people is going to have lineups, macaroni and cheese and dormitories. It is time to move beyond that and bring far more dignity to the spaces and provide a much better platform for clinical work to accompany people out much faster onto and into better lives. That’s number one.
Number two, in Quebec, Infrastructure Canada transfers many to the Quebec government. We don’t have — whether it’s Reaching Home or otherwise — direct relationships with Infrastructure Canada for our funding. Our program, the Sentinels, is funded directly by Veterans Affairs Canada, so we do have a wonderful relationship, and four- or five-year funding is a long time for us. We would like base funding, by the way. We do have some of that kind of funding with the Quebec government. We would love more of that through this.
The recovery centre idea is a really — access to medical services, health services, super tough for homeless people. Accessibility is one of the hardest issues for people who have a very tough time accessing medical services. I think that’s a great idea.
On the last question about cannabis, if it is prescribed by a doctor, it is absolutely something we should support. If it’s medication in the form of marijuana, let’s do it because that’s what the doctor ordered.
The Chair: Thank you so much.
Mr. Maddox, please go ahead.
Mr. Maddox: There are always alphas in the shelters. We try to control that as much as possible. Basically, we become the alpha and they settle down. The vets tend not to be that. It is usually the ex-cons that will tend to be the alpha, and that’s the side they came in.
I’m not sure if it is the ketamine and the MDMA that’s valuable, or is it the one-on-one counselling session that goes with it?
Senator Richards: I’m not sure either. I just know that so many ex-soldiers, veterans, came in and said that not only did it cure them of their depression and feelings of hopelessness, but some of them say it saved their life. A lot of them were talking about psilocybin and magic mushrooms. There was, of course, cannabis, but there was also MDMA, which is ecstasy.
Mr. Maddox: I’ve been thinking about this one actually quite a bit, and I’m not sure it’s the drug or the one-on-one counselling that goes with it. But as far as cannabis goes, fire up, go at her.
Senator Richards: It wasn’t really cannabis I was concerned about. It was the other two. It was what your thoughts were, that’s all.
Mr. Maddox: Still out on that one.
The recovery centre is really going to be a space that gives time for the vet to find meaning, health and wellness, and to find companionship, because that is something that is missing in their lives. I’m looking at Atlantic and Canada-wide, not necessarily just New Brunswick. Nova Scotia has huge capacity. Somewhere in the East where we can get these guys in and start giving them the runway they need to be able to take off and go from there. Thank you.
The Chair: That was excellent.
Mr. Morgan: On the drugs, we don’t do any dispensing or anything at the shelter. It is under the supervision of a doctor. If it is prescribed, we will support it. We do have an addictions centre there too for recovery, but it is abstinence-based. Again, it is under medical supervision, and it is whatever the doctor prescribes that they think will help.
Helmets to Hardhats, for those who don’t know, is a program that trains the military for construction work. There is a dearth of construction workers needed in Toronto, and it’s a good opportunity for them to be employed. I think it’s a tremendous program, and we will be happy to report back on information for this committee.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
As I said, this hour goes by very rapidly. Most times we could use you for about five hours, but we know that’s a lot. With that said, I have no doubt that each of you has more that you would like to submit. We are certainly happy to receive any written responses — Senator McNair has requested one — that you would like to provide to us, because we will take them all into consideration.
From my perspective, it has been absolutely fascinating as a veteran, someone who worked with homeless veterans, and now sitting on this side of the table. I was pulling out big themes as I was listening. We’re seeing consistent threads come through all sorts of witnesses as well, things like focusing on sustained and baseline funding for these programs as core functions, reducing the number of agencies you’re expected to run around to for the funding that addresses the needs of veterans, like a centralized approach and, of course, having a health care background, developing a prevention policy starts while they are still serving, as we know, and transitions with them as they move to veterans. There are many others, but these are the ones that really struck me — and the recovery centre. I heard more than that, but I look at things that poked out to me.
With that said, unfortunately, this does bring us to the end of today’s meeting. I would like to extend, on behalf of all of us here and from our audience, a thank you to Mr. Maddox, Mr. Morgan, Mr. Hughes and Ms. Huguet. Thank you for taking time with us today.
(The committee adjourned.)