THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES AND OCEANS
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Tuesday, February 3, 2026
The Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans met with videoconference this day at 6:31 p.m. [ET] to study the subject matter of those elements contained in Division 33 of Part 5 of Bill C-15, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on November 4, 2025; and, in camera, for consideration of a draft agenda (future business).
Senator Bev Busson (Deputy Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Deputy Chair: Good evening. My name is Bev Busson, senator from British Columbia and the deputy chair of this committee. I have the pleasure of chairing this meeting tonight.
Today, we are conducting a meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.
I would like to ask all senators and other in-person participants to consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents. Please make sure to keep your headsets away from all microphones at all times. Do not touch the microphone. It will be turned on and off by the console operator. Please avoid handling your earpiece while your microphone is on. Either keep it on your ear or place it on the designated sticker. Thank you for your cooperation.
Should any technical challenges arise, particularly in relation to interpretation, please signal to either me or our clerk, and we will work to resolve the issue.
Before we begin, I would like to take a few moments to allow the members of this committee to introduce themselves.
Senator Surette: Allister Surette, Nova Scotia.
[Translation]
Senator Cuzner: Rodger Cuzner from Nova Scotia.
Senator Boudreau: Victor Boudreau from New Brunswick.
Senator Gerba: Amina Gerba from Quebec.
[English]
Senator C. Deacon: Colin Deacon, Nova Scotia.
Senator Dhillon: Baltej Dhillon from British Columbia.
The Deputy Chair: Today, the committee is starting its study on the subject matter of the elements contained in Division 33 of Part 5 of Bill C-15, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on November 4, 2025.
Today, under this mandate, the committee will be hearing from the following individual from the Government of the Northwest Territories, Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment: Joel Holder, Director of Economic Diversification.
Mr. Holder, on behalf of the members of the committee, I want to thank you for being here even if it is virtually. We really appreciate your time. I understand that you have opening remarks. Following the remarks, I know that members of the committee will have interesting questions to put to you.
Thank you very much for being here. You have the floor.
Joel Holder, Director, Economic Diversification, Industry, Tourism and Investment, Government of the Northwest Territories: Thank you, Madam Chair, for this opportunity to speak with you today. This is an important period of transition for the commercial fisheries sector, and the Government of the Northwest Territories remains committed to ensuring stability for fishers and northern communities, including the many Indigenous harvesters who form the backbone of the N.W.T. fishery throughout this process.
That’s all I would like to introduce the topic with. I’m open and available for questions.
The Deputy Chair: I’ll start with a question myself. I see that in 2023, Fisheries and Oceans reported that 1.5%, 429 tonnes, of landed weight commercially caught freshwater fish were landed in the Northwest Territories. Has this been an increase or a decrease from the usual, and since 2023, has this increased or decreased?
Mr. Holder: If you wouldn’t mind, would you please repeat the number itself?
The Deputy Chair: From the research, it says that 429 tonnes, or 1.75%, of the total Canadian landed weight of commercially caught freshwater fish were landed in the Northwest Territories.
Mr. Holder: Yes.
The Deputy Chair: Is that an average number or has it increased or decreased since then?
Mr. Holder: That’s about an average number.
The Deputy Chair: How do you expect your industry to be impacted, if at all, by the divestiture of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation, or FFMC? If there will be an impact, would you please talk to us about that?
Mr. Holder: Certainly. First, the Government of the Northwest Territories has just recently built a new fish‑processing plant in Hay River, which is on the south shore of Great Slave Lake. This is a facility that is currently operated by Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation, but the building is owned by the Government of the Northwest Territories, and it is considered to be a future backbone to support the sector and the industry. We knew Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation might not be around forever, and such is the case now with the divestiture. We now hold the future in our own hands as far as providing an opportunity to Great Slave Lake fishers. The fish plant itself can provide an opportunity where they can sell their fish, and these fish can then be sold for secondary processing and products and distributed within the Northwest Territories or southern markets in Alberta or British Columbia.
In a way, we are still interested in what Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation is doing and what the future of that industry is. We’ve been involved with FFMC for many decades. We’re interested in the transformation and how fishers will handle the transformation between FFMC and the new fish plant in Hay River. When I say “new fish plant,” it has only been temporarily operating as of last summer. It is that new; 2024-25, so to speak.
We’ve been concerned about the transition between the sales side of things. They’re accustomed to selling to Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation. How are they going to feel about selling to the Hay River plant and ensuring that we can, at the new plant, meet the expected professionalism and level of consistency that FFMC has been able to provide fishers over the decades? That has been the main concern of the new fish plant in Hay River.
The Deputy Chair: Just for clarification, so that I understand all that you’re saying, the new plant in Hay River — I know Hay River and the area — am I wrong in saying that it will become operated by the Northwest Territories government?
Mr. Holder: It is owned by the Northwest Territories. We are currently under a process much like what FFMC has been going under, in which we are looking for a future operator for the facility.
In the last three years, we have had an operating agreement with Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation, in which they have been assisting us in developing the processing line, testing equipment and ensuring that the facility gets up and running as it should be, and that we are at maximum efficiency. We are coming to the end of that agreement, mostly because of the transformation, the divestiture of FFMC.
Sorry, I’ve lost my train of thought. What was your question?
The Deputy Chair: You were hoping to explain to me who operates this plant at the end of the day if FFMC divests.
Mr. Holder: I was getting to the point that, with FFMC no longer being able to assist us in the operating side of things, we are undertaking our own divestment process, where we’re looking at who might be the operator for the facility going on in perpetuity. We hope to find a northern entity, whether that’s Indigenous or other, that is interested in taking over that facility from the Government of the Northwest Territories.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you. One other quick clarification around this: How much of the commercial freshwater fish caught in the Northwest Territories comes out of Great Slave Lake?
Mr. Holder: At the moment, it’s almost 100%. There is one other lake that has a small quota on it as well that we receive fish from, but it’s in close proximity to Hay River, so those fish get transferred over to the Hay River processing facility. Otherwise, I would say that 99.9% of the commercial fish are from Great Slave Lake.
The Deputy Chair: I suspected that was the answer, but I just wanted to get it on the record. Thank you very much. We have other senators interested in asking you a question.
Senator Surette: My question to you is this: How much do you know of the divestiture? When I look at the last annual report of the FFMC, it looks like they’re going through a number of stages before they get to know who’s going to be the proponent. I see here “Stage 3 — Closing (Fall 2025 to Winter 2026),” and I’m just trying to figure out the relationship you have with them now. If I understand properly, Ontario, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Alberta are all out of FFMC. The Northwest Territories is the only participant. Can you tell us a little bit about the corporation, the assets that the corporation has and what happens to them?
Mr. Holder: Okay. In the Northwest Territories, Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation has one facility, one piece of infrastructure in the Northwest Territories. It has been operating as a packing or transfer facility, where fish from Great Slave Lake have been delivered to. They’ve been packed on ice, loaded on trucks and shipped to Winnipeg to the main Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation location. That is the only piece of infrastructure that I’m aware of that FFMC has in the Northwest Territories. Sorry, there are also some land-tenure parcels that still remain on islands and shorelines in three locations on Great Slave Lake. Those are locations from previous fish-processing facilities that FFMC operated historically, but there is nothing located on those properties any longer. The infrastructure has been removed.
Senator Surette: What’s the relationship between the Government of the Northwest Territories and the Crown corporation FFMC?
Mr. Holder: The relationship that we have for the operation of the fish plant is an operating agreement. It’s an agreement that we have where we’ve paid the FFMC an annual fee for their expertise and knowledge to assist us in getting our facility up and running and operating at peak performance. That’s the one agreement we have for the operating facility. Of course, under the legal agreement, under the legislation being the last signatory, there is an agreement where the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation is obliged to purchase all species from Great Slave Lake fishers and to process those species, either in the Northwest Territories or at their Winnipeg facility. It is a relationship between FFMC and the fishers, where the fishers feel comfortable that, should they approach FFMC with fish for sale, FFMC is obliged to purchase those fish.
Senator C. Deacon: Thanks for being with us. I just wanted to know first about consultation with First Nations and other stakeholders in this process. I wanted to understand the extent of that, and I have a second follow-up after that.
Mr. Holder: Okay. As far as the process from the FFMC divestiture, the responsibility for the consultation has been with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, or DFO. They have the mandate for — or the Crown corporation falls under themselves. The Government of the Northwest Territories has not been a participant in those consultations. We have been asked for advice from DFO as to who the parties should be and who the Indigenous groups around the lake might be that should be involved in those consultations. But we have not been mentioned in any correspondence or involved in any face-to-face meetings or anything of that nature with DFO and the Indigenous parties.
Senator C. Deacon: Just quickly, have these been well publicized? Have all the stakeholders had a chance to be a part of the consultations or has it been narrowly defined?
Mr. Holder: The consultations, as far as I understand, that have occurred have been through letter correspondence with Indigenous groups. They have expressed a willingness from DFO to meet face to face. I don’t know how many of those Indigenous groups accepted those offers or those invitations. I, myself, attended one meeting with the commercial fishers that DFO was responsible for initiating and conducting. I was in attendance as an observer to hear what messaging was being shared between DFO and the commercial fishers. There were two locations: One was in Hay River, and the other one was in Yellowknife, Northwest Territories.
Senator C. Deacon: What’s the feeling among the fishers in terms of this transition and their comfort or discomfort?
Mr. Holder: It was mixed. Some fishers were concerned because, having worked with Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation for decades, they felt that the purchaser was now going to disappear. They didn’t know what kind of a relationship they might have or where they would sell their fish in the future. There were those who thought that this was an opportunity because they felt they were always sort of under pressure by FFMC; they were at the mercy of whatever the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation wanted to purchase their fish at. They were not always happy with the price that they would be receiving from their fish, and they felt they were obligated to sell their fish to FFMC. So with the piece of legislation lifting, they would no longer be bound by having to sell to Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation. So it was kind of a mix between the two.
Senator C. Deacon: I just wanted to get a sense of this. One of the things that we have heard in previous committee testimony is that there is a lack of fish stock analysis done in the North by Fisheries and Oceans. So with regard to the 429 tonnes that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans reported in 2023, I’m just wondering about any evidence that is gathered under the responsibility of Fisheries and Oceans. I’m not aware that they have been doing any fish stock analysis, but do you have any evidence to the contrary?
Mr. Holder: We have a relationship here between the Government of the Northwest Territories and the Arctic regional office. We have bilateral meetings that we hold twice a year. They are at somewhat senior levels, the Assistant Deputy Minister level, where information is shared between the parties. They’ve been sharing information with the Government of the Northwest Territories regarding fish stocks and just what they have been studying. We do have some of our own questions. We’re not fish scientists or fish biologists, but we do question some of the research that is being done. In listening to the commercial fishers, the commercial fishers have some disagreement about what the science is saying and what they’re catching in their nets. They think there is a difference. They’re sharing with us information about fish populations, species diversity, various food sources and things like that. I believe the information is being shared openly and transparently during those meetings and through other discourse and other conversations that we have with them.
One other source is the Great Slave Lake Advisory Committee. They use the acronym GSLAC for short. That is an advisory committee that has been around since the 1970s, made up of representative commercial fishers and others. DFO has a responsibility for conducting meetings at least annually with fishers, sport fishers and others, where they share information, some of which is research that they’ve been doing on the lake. It is a chance or an opportunity for others to provide feedback to that research and have some interaction with the other users of the lake.
Between those two opportunities, DFO has been fairly straightforward and transparent with the information that they have.
Senator C. Deacon: Second round, please.
Senator Prosper: Thank you for coming here and providing your evidence. I believe you mentioned earlier in your testimony that Indigenous fishers or communities participating are the backbone to the fishery. In the Northwest Territories, can you describe, with respect to numbers — groups potentially — are these individuals? What type of impact will this have on the economy with those fishers within those respective communities? You mentioned that your government is in the process of looking for an operator. With the divestiture of FFMC, what are the ongoing obligations that DFO has with respect to that fishery in that area?
Mr. Holder: Thank you for the question. When I was making reference to the backbone of the fishery, we have approximately 25 fishers who fish the lake. Of those, 100% are Indigenous. When I say, “the backbone,” it’s everyone.
Regarding the potential impacts, we’re hoping to mitigate any of the impacts by having our own fish plant in Hay River so that they maintain an opportunity for fishers to sell their catch.
As far as the obligations of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, they have the mandate for inland fisheries. They have the mandate for managing fish stocks. We, as a government, provide funding for commercial fisheries. The territorial government doesn’t have a mandate, obviously, for fish populations or anything around the management of fish habitat or things like that. We’re the funding outlet for commercial fishers to approach to help mitigate some of their costs.
What are DFO’s responsibilities? I don’t think anything changes with the DFO’s responsibility. They had a mandated responsibility when FFMC was not there and into the future after the divestiture.
Senator Prosper: With previous questions on the nature of those consultations, you mentioned a letter that was sent by DFO under the guise of some type of consultation. Is there anything in addition to that? Are you aware of any further consultations that have taken place between DFO or the federal government through another department and those Indigenous fishers?
Mr. Holder: I’m not aware of the extent of the consultations, being in a separate government from DFO, other than what was spoken to or shared with me verbally. I didn’t receive any of the letters or correspondence itself, so I can’t say whether there was any follow-up, letters, phone calls, emails or any additional consultative attempts.
Senator Prosper: Can you just share what the value of that fishery is on a yearly basis?
Mr. Holder: Approximately just over $2 million, $2.2 million.
Senator Prosper: Okay.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Gerba: I would like to know whether the divestiture of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation presents any advantages and challenges. Do you see any advantages to this?
[English]
Mr. Holder: Apologies, in switching to the translation, I missed the initial context of the question.
Senator Gerba: I just want to know if you can see any advantages of this investment of the office.
Mr. Holder: From my perspective, no, I don’t see any. As I mentioned, we’re hoping that the Hay River facility mitigates any loss of ability or inability of fishers to be able to sell their product. Hopefully, that is simply a replacement. If FFMC is no longer there, the Hay River fish plant is there, so it’s a one‑for‑one replacement. If that’s what happens, then I don’t see anything negative.
The positive will be that now the Northwest Territories is taking a more active role in the future of fisheries and that it’s more of a face forward. You can actually see where your product is going because it’s not out of the territory and three provinces away that these fish are being shipped. They’re being processed in the Northwest Territories and are available for consumption and for purchase by people in the Northwest Territories as a good source of food. It helps with food security, food sovereignty and those sorts of things. It is also a new economic opportunity through employment at the facility. We see moving to an N.W.T. facility only as a positive.
[Translation]
Senator Gerba: Thank you.
[English]
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much. We’re now going to move to the second round.
Senator C. Deacon: Thank you, Mr. Holder, for being with us. I would like to look at value-added opportunities and how this new structure and change will enable greater value to be created for the community, and potentially in the movement of products outside of the Northwest Territories, if and when that’s appropriate. Is there any focus on increasing the value add and the way that the fish are being processed or the products that are created?
Mr. Holder: Yes. Currently, prior to the fish plant being sold, the fish would be packed and shipped to Winnipeg for processing. Having the fish plant here, where the fish are then processed into fillets, we have the potential in the facility to introduce smoking. We could do some smoking in the facility. There is potential for canning. Roe is another big thing. The facility is able to process roe in the fall. We’ve been investigating a number of secondary value-added products.
There’s also the compost from the facility itself. There’s a secondary sector that’s been accepting the racks and the heads — the waste — from the facility and taking them to their own separate facility, where they’re being processed into agricultural grade compost. That’s a product that is available for backyard gardeners or for areas or communities in the Northwest Territories that are soil poor. We can ship large amounts of compost to those communities, and they can then use that in agricultural aspects in their own communities, again, assisting with food security and food sovereignty in some of these small, remote, Indigenous communities.
Senator C. Deacon: Thank you very much. For me, it was really wonderful to hear all of that, because it shows that the value is being kept in the community rather than being shipped out of the community, and the creation of opportunities. Thank you. That’s really important.
Senator Surette: Just a question before I go into my questions. Who did you say the owner of the facility in Hay River is?
Mr. Holder: The Government of the Northwest Territories is the owner.
Senator Surette: I’m still trying to figure out the relationship between FFMC, your territory and so on. When it says that, over the years, Ontario, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Alberta withdrew from FFMC, but you’re still participating, what does that actually mean?
Mr. Holder: As far as I understand it, that means that we are the last signatory or one of the last signatories. I believe Alberta is still there, but they don’t have an active commercial fishery. We refer to ourselves as the last active signatory to the Freshwater Fish Marketing Act. Under that act, the FFMC has a responsibility to purchase fish from fishers from Great Slave Lake or from the Northwest Territories as a whole, but mostly Great Slave Lake. It’s all species at all times of the year, whether that’s a summer or a winter fishery.
That’s the comfort that a fisher has. They know that if they bring fish out of the lake, if they harvest fish, they have a buyer for that fish.
Senator Surette: That’s a direct competitor to your fish plant?
Mr. Holder: It would be if FFMC were still in existence, yes.
Senator Surette: They could still be because, from what I see here, they have a request for proposal, or RFP, out, and you don’t know who, if anybody, applied for the divestiture, correct?
Mr. Holder: That is correct. You’re right. The new entity, whoever the new entity might be that takes over responsibility for FFMC — or the ownership — will be a competitor for the fish plant in Hay River, correct.
Senator Surette: Right. When you said earlier that the fish value was $2.2 million, you were talking about your fish plant because it looks like the revenue for FFMC is a big number, like, $70 million.
Mr. Holder: Yes. FFMC is much larger. They have many more millions of tons that are going through that facility than the facility that we have in Hay River.
Senator Surette: I’m not sure I received the answer the first time or if I asked the question, actually. What is the position of your government, then? What would you like to see coming out of this? In some ways, I can understand that if FFMC dies, then you go ahead with what you’re doing now. Is there another position from your government?
Mr. Holder: Our government will be going ahead with the Hay River facility regardless of the future of FFMC. It looks like it’s likely to have a new FFMC — FFMC Part 2 — whoever the new entity happens to be. We would have to compete with them.
We believe, though, that with the products that we would be producing in Hay River, given the smaller volume and the proximity to Alberta, we would be better situated than those in Winnipeg to access northern — specifically Edmonton or Calgary — markets than FFMC would.
Again, with our volume being smaller and our product being niche, we could guarantee fresh fish into Alberta overnight, arguably, better than FFMC could, and that will be our marketing.
Senator Surette: My last question goes back to the RFP. There were already questions asked about consultations, but I’m assuming there will be consultations with your government as well, since you’re involved.
You don’t have any idea where they’re at with the RFP?
Mr. Holder: For myself, at the official level, I have ongoing meetings with an official at DFO, who has been keeping me informed, to the extent that they can, with information about the RFP, where things are at and how things are moving.
There has not been a government-to-government conversation between the minister of DFO and my minister around any changes to the legislation or the operation of FFMC.
At the official level, my assistant deputy minister, or ADM, and I have had conversations with staff within DFO that keep us informed of how things are advancing with the RFP.
The Deputy Chair: I have one more question, and I have to admit to being a neophyte around these kinds of contracts and contractual relationships, but I need to ask, just for clarification for myself and, hopefully, other people on this committee. From what I hear, would it not be advantageous for your government to purchase or be that person on the other side of that contract, as the fish come into your fish plant, having operated the plant and your plans to market the fish, would that not make sense that that just be the natural process?
Mr. Holder: What we envision is we would like a northern business entity to operate the facility. We don’t see that government has a role to be playing in operating a fish plant. It’s something that we don’t have the in-house expertise to be doing. We admit that. We would like to follow a similar process to the FFMC divestiture process and find our own northern entity that has experience either through partnerships with others that have had experience in the fish industry or with Indigenous groups or with a northern business. That entity would take on responsibility for operating the facility.
The Deputy Chair: Someone from your jurisdiction rather than another provincial or territorial jurisdiction?
Mr. Holder: Ideally, we’d like to see a Northwest Territories company come forward — whether it be a cooperative or a company — someone in the Northwest Territories with a vested interest in the people and the land of the Northwest Territories and waters.
If that doesn’t exist, then we’ll have to consider which proponents might be interested in the facility.
The Deputy Chair: I see that all the senators have had an opportunity to ask their questions, so I want to thank you very much for taking the time to appear before us today. It was incredibly informative and helpful to our deliberations.
I would like to suggest that the committee proceed in camera for the next 30 to 45 minutes. Are there any objections to proceeding in camera? If none, it’s agreed. Again, thank you very much for your help.
Mr. Holder: You’re very welcome.
(The committee continued in camera.)