THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON VETERANS AFFAIRS
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Wednesday, September 25, 2024
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs met with videoconference this day at 12:01 p.m. [ET] to carry out the election of the Deputy Chair; and to examine and report on issues relating to Veterans Affairs, including services and benefits provided, commemorative activities, and the continuing implementation of the Veterans Well-being Act.
Senator Rebecca Patterson (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Good afternoon. Welcome to this meeting of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs. Before I begin, I would ask that all senators and other people consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents. Please ensure you keep your earpiece away from the microphone at all times. When you’re not using your earpiece, place it face down on the sticker you can see on the table beside you. Thank you for your cooperation.
I am Senator Rebecca Patterson from Ontario, and I chair this subcommittee. I am joined by my fellow subcommittee members, whom I will welcome and ask to introduce themselves, starting on my right.
Senator Richards: David Richards from New Brunswick.
Senator M. Deacon: Marty Deacon from Ontario.
Senator Anderson: Dawn Anderson, Northwest Territories.
The Chair: We will probably have two other members join us, and we will give them a chance to introduce themselves.
The first item of business today is to elect a new deputy chair. As you’re aware, our former deputy chair, Senator Oh, retired in the spring. This leaves a vacancy we must fill today, and I’m ready to receive a motion to that effect. Are there any nominations?
Senator M. Deacon: Yes. I would be pleased to nominate Senator David Richards for that position.
The Chair: Are there any other nominations?
Senator Yussuff: For the longest time, I did not believe in reincarnation, but now I am a believer and would like to second the nomination.
The Chair: Honourable senators, is the motion carried?
Hon. Senators: Carried.
The Chair: I declare the motion carried. Welcome, former chair, now Deputy Chair Senator Richards.
Before welcoming today’s witnesses, I would like to provide a content warning for this meeting. Today our subcommittee is studying veterans’ homelessness. Sensitive subjects such as trauma related to military and RCMP service, homelessness and gender-based violence may be discussed. This may be triggering to some people in the room and online.
Mental health support for all Canadians is available by phone and text at 9-8-8. If you are a veteran, you can call 1-800-268-7708 to speak to a mental health professional right now. Senators and parliamentary employees are also reminded that the Senate’s Employee and Family Assistance Program is available to them and offers short-term counselling for both personal and work-related concerns as well as crisis counselling.
To our witnesses, should you at any time need a pause, we are here for you. Do not hesitate to step back. We will not push you for answers.
I would like to welcome our three witnesses to the subcommittee meeting. I would like to introduce them to my fellow senators.
First, we have, from the Women Veterans Research and Engagement Network, Major Retired Dr. Karen Breeck, Co‑Chair. Second, we have Sandra Perron, Founder and Chief Executive Officer of the Pepper Pod. Third, we have by video conference Todd Ross, Co-Chair, Rainbow Veterans Canada. Welcome to the three of you.
Thank you for joining us today. We will begin by inviting you to provide your opening remarks. They will be followed by questions from our members. Your opening remarks should take five minutes. Since we have a brief period of time to meet really care what you have to say, we will keep you on time. The clerk may raise a little card so you know how we’re doing timing‑wise. Please know that if there is information you’re not able to share with us, you are certainly welcome to make a written submission afterward.
With that, we will begin with Dr. Breeck.
Karen Breeck, Co-Chair, Women Veterans Research and Engagement Network: Hello. I’m a retired military physician and a proud member of the Federation of Medical Women of Canada.
I also co-chair the Women Veterans Research and Engagement Network alongside Dr. Maya Eichler from the Centre for Social Innovation and Community Engagement in Military Affairs at Mount Saint Vincent University in Nova Scotia, and Ms. Sayward Montague, the Advocacy Director for the National Association of Federal Retirees.
I look forward to addressing intersectionality issues related to homelessness, particularly as they pertain to women veterans. While I am a woman veteran myself, I do not have personal experience with homelessness. However, it has been my honour and privilege to amplify the voices of women impacted by housing insecurity challenges to several ministerial and departmental staff groups, the Office of the Veterans Ombud, the RESPECT Forum and during the recent House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs study of women veterans.
I encourage the Senate to enable those with lived experience to participate fully and directly in this study.
I first learned about this topic in May 2019 at the Women Veterans Forum in Prince Edward Island. Since then, I have noted four key observations that I would like to share with the committee:
First, there is no single path to or from homelessness. A one-size-fits-all solution will therefore never equitably serve all veterans, especially women veterans.
Second, an ounce of prevention is indeed worth a pound of cure. We must invest more in the education and screening of those still serving. Additionally, there should be a proactive homelessness prevention strategy for individuals identified as high-risk, especially at the time of their transition out of the military or RCMP.
Third, Veterans Affairs Canada, or VAC, services should always be designed to meet veterans where they are. Truly veteran-centric programming would never assume that all veterans have access to transportation, smartphones, laptops, the internet, printers, credit cards, health care providers, supportive spouses or friends or fixed addresses.
Fourth, impacted veterans want a hand up, not a handout. Many veterans, particularly women, are fiercely independent and do not want to be seen as burdens. Unfortunately, this independence often coexists with a distrust of strangers and government institutions, making seeking help a last resort. Programs and services unfamiliar with this aspect of veteran culture can inadvertently cause additional trauma, especially when they do not take a veteran’s first-time help request seriously.
To address these issues, I offer three specific recommendations to the committee:
First, define the problem from the perspective of impacted veteran. Many veterans seek a broader, more holistic approach to their well-being that encompasses, rather than focuses solely on, housing insecurity. Most impacted veterans had identifiable, modifiable challenges that, if better helped with earlier, would have likely prevented their need to use homeless shelters or live on the streets.
Second, define how we will know when the problem is solved, and again, define it from the perspective of the impacted veterans. Not all veterans will view popular community efforts, such as fundraising for group setting locations or tiny homes, as the best solution for them, especially many women veterans.
Third, the phrase “nothing about us, without us” needs to be implemented. Veterans should be proactively involved in all government decisions that will impact them.
Confidential surveys could be routinely employed to gather feedback from veterans with lived experience on all government‑funded services and programs. Something along the lines of a Veterans Experience Office could then analyze this feedback to refine and continuously improve government services to veterans.
In closing, I thank the committee for examining veteran homelessness, particularly for women. I look forward to discussing the current state of the ten recommendations made in the original May 2019 House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs study during the question and answer section today. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you, Dr. Breeck.
Next we’ll hear from honorary Colonel Perron.
Sandra Perron, Founder and Chief Executive Officer, The Pepper Pod: Thank you, Madam Chair and distinguished members of the committee, colleagues and Dr. Breeck.
[Translation]
Good afternoon. I’m the founder and chief executive officer of the Pepper Pod, an organization whose mission is to build a stronger community of women veterans. We have a retreat centre in Chelsea, Quebec. Over 350 women have graduated from our Lifeshops retreat weekend. About 200 more participate in some of our activities, such as wellness programs and Beyond Trauma workshops. Right now, over 350 women who would like to complete our programs have their name on our waiting list.
[English]
I would like to preface this presentation by saying that we are neophytes when it comes to women veterans experiencing or at risk of experiencing homelessness. When this issue was first brought to our attention, we were hesitant to engage in this endeavour but quickly realized that this segment of the population includes our sisters-in-arms, and we must include them in our quest for a stronger women veteran community.
We have worked diligently to learn about and understand the challenges that contribute to homelessness in our women veteran population.
I would like to introduce Joanne Bilodeau, a 25-year veteran of the Canadian Armed Forces. She will be the project director of the Pepper Pod’s homelessness project. The aim of this project is to eventually connect our team of trained and skilled women veterans who want to continue to serve their country in a meaningful way with women veterans who are experiencing homelessness to ensure that all the wraparound services are made available to them, such as transitional housing, mental health services, accessibility to Veterans Affairs Canada and many more. We will not be providing these services, but our team will be “Connect-Hers” to those precious resources.
Here is what we have learned so far. Women veterans’ homelessness is incredibly hard to estimate because the women experiencing homelessness are invisible. Many of these women don’t identify as veterans, they don’t navigate the same territory as their male counterparts and the causes leading to their homelessness are different. In addition, their needs are different.
This said, women veterans are currently four times more likely to experience homelessness than women who did not serve in the military. Women veterans account for 10% to 15% of the total number of veterans. However, they represent 30% of shelter use among veterans, double what their representation should be when compared to men. Further, that does not include the women veterans who have not identified as veterans, nor those who are avoiding shelters because of the safety risk of being in a predominantly male environment, especially if these women have children.
Lower income, violence, mental health and substance use are known risk factors for homelessness. It is well established that these risk factors are disproportionately present for women veterans as studies have shown that women veterans make significantly less than men upon entering the civilian workforce, that they have suffered more military sexual trauma and that their transition to civilian life is uniquely challenging in myriad ways. In addition, women are more likely to be single parents. All of these factors contribute exponentially to mental health challenges and substance abuse.
Although Statistics Canada surveys have estimated that approximately 3 in 10 women in the Regular Force experience targeted sexualized or discriminatory behaviour prior to their release, the numbers we see through our programs are significantly higher, toward 50%.
Sexual trauma can be attributed to one of three distinct periods for these women. The first period is prior to their service. Women have reported to us they have suffered adverse childhood experiences, often sexual, through fathers, grandfathers, brothers, uncles and other male relatives. Often, their only escape to leave this abuse is to join the military or the RCMP.
The second period is during their service. Military sexual trauma, or MST, including sexual harassment and rape while in service, was found to be the most common theme among homeless female veterans, appearing in 7 of the 15 studies. One study found that female veterans who had experienced MST were 4.4 times more likely to be homeless.
This one, the third period, is important. Post-service, post-traumatic stress injuries, the ensuing mental health challenges and substance use render women more vulnerable to predation and sexualized violence.
On intimate partner violence in relationships, several studies discussed how violent and abusive partners contributed to the homelessness of female veterans, with some choosing homelessness over staying in an unsafe situation.
Throughout our Lifeshops, we hear stories of women veterans who have experienced violence from a spouse, either serving or veteran, who is experiencing PTSD. The worrisome part is that these victims of abuse either don’t want to report the abuse because they are told it will affect their spouse’s benefits or careers. They are also told that their spouse served his country, and, therefore, there is a need to be loyal to and support them. Many of these women choose to escape the household, sometimes with children, and become at risk of experiencing homelessness.
The Chair: Thank you, Colonel Perron. Hopefully, we get the rest of your points if you missed any because this is important information.
Mr. Ross, the floor is yours.
Todd Ross, Co-Chair, Rainbow Veterans Canada: Good afternoon. [Indigenous language spoken].
I introduce myself as Wabiniquot, my spirit name. I am Michif, a Red River Métis and a citizen of the Métis Nation of Ontario.
I am joining you today from the unceded and unsurrendered lands of the Wolastoqiyik in Menahqesk, also called Saint John, from my office at the University of New Brunswick, or UNB. I am the Indigenous advisor on campus and it’s a very busy time, so I’m sorry I’m not able to join you in person today.
Thank you for inviting me to speak.
Rainbow Veterans of Canada is a non-profit organization incorporated in 2019. We are a group of volunteers that represent 2SLGBTQI+ veterans, and we began shortly after the LGBT Purge class-action lawsuit as we saw a need to provide a safe and supportive space for veterans who identify as 2SLGBTQI+. We advocate for the rights, benefits and recognition our members deserve, and we provide education on the history and the unique challenges that veterans face or have faced.
Across Canada, including those who are part of the LGBT Purge, is our membership. I was also purged from the Canadian Armed Forces in 1990. At the time, my honourable discharge stated that I was not advantageously employable due to homosexuality, and that I was not a veteran nor would I ever qualify for veterans’ services. This whole period was a traumatic experience in my youth and profoundly affected my life.
A year after my release, I found myself precariously housed and spent time couch surfing. I found four part-time jobs, so I was able to afford rent. Eventually, I was able to find stable employment and stable housing but still continued to experience mental health challenges.
In 2016, I was one of three people to launch the class-action lawsuit referred to as the “LGBT Purge.” At that time, I was not aware that I qualified for veterans’ services. I learned from an informal network of 2SLGBTQI+ veterans that I did qualify and should apply for help. In 2018, I applied. After receiving a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder, I received services.
It was not an easy process, administratively or emotionally.
Like me, many of the veterans we work with struggle on their own, believing they do not qualify for services. Some of the challenges include regaining trust and the fear of new discrimination, high rates of mental health challenges, severe trauma and potential aggression that require specific expertise in assistance and isolation. Many of us are highly vulnerable and at a higher risk of experiencing homelessness and housing precariousness. There is also very little research on 2SLGBTQI+ veterans and homelessness.
In the past few years, we have developed a strong relationship with Veterans Affairs Canada, and the situation has improved dramatically regarding services. VAC has been incredibly supportive, and the staff are becoming more frequently trained and aware of the specific challenges that 2SLGBTQI+ veterans face. We have had emergency situations where people have lost housing or were about to lose housing, and VAC has gone above and beyond to assist.
VETS Canada has also been an early partner in supporting 2SLGBTQI+ veterans who are homeless. We’ve successfully referred people to VETS Canada, and they have been able to help. That is the type of partnership we would like to see established across the country.
Recently, Infrastructure Canada approved a multi-year grant under the Veteran Homelessness Program, and Rainbow Veterans of Canada is working with Egale Canada on a project to reduce homelessness for 2SLGBTQI+ veterans experience or at risk of homelessness. We have just begun the research phase and are hoping to have findings in the next year.
Our base challenge is that we continue to struggle to reach 2SLGBTQI+ veterans. Our defences are strong and our closets are deep. We regularly come across LGBT Purge survivors who were not aware of the apology by the Government of Canada or the class-action lawsuit. I worry about these veterans and fear they might not be receiving help.
As we work with more and more veterans, we do not have the capacity to create services, so our hope is to have the support and resources to work with existing service providers to ensure that 2SLGBTQI+ veterans can access services anywhere that are safe and welcoming, and that they don’t feel the need to go back in the closet to receive services.
We have a lot of work to do to support 2SLGBTQI+ veterans.
I want to applaud the work done by service providers and organizations supporting all veterans and acknowledge the tremendous work they do. I also applaud the work of my fellow witnesses today. They are amazing people who are passionate about supporting veterans, and I am honoured to share this space with them.
Thank you very much.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Ross; thank you for sharing a very personal story. I know it’s not easy.
We have two new senators who didn’t get a chance to introduce themselves, so before we start questioning, I will ask them to introduce themselves.
Senator Yussuff: Hassan Yussuff, senator from Ontario.
Senator Al Zaibak: Senator Mohammad Al Zaibak from Ontario.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
We’re now going to proceed to the question period. Our time to do this is tight, and we know there is great interest in what you all have to say. As a reminder to senators and witnesses, you have a total of four minutes, including the question and answer, so I ask you to be succinct in your question. Also, senators, please identify the witness to whom you are referring your question.
I would like to offer the first question to our newly appointed deputy chair.
Senator Richards: Thank you for being here. My question is to the two women, Dr. Breeck or Ms. Perron.
I’ve been a member of this committee for about eight years, and the government hasn’t changed. Recommendations have been made from this office and from the Senate floor about women’s problems, needed medical and psychological help, homelessness, and help for addictions and those suffering from PTSD. These are ongoing concerns, and they have been for the last eight years that I’ve been a member of this body.
Could you let me know, to the best of your ability, if, in the last eight years, there have been any improvements in the aid for these women, even incrementally or in any way whatsoever?
Dr. Breeck: I’m happy to start on this one. Thank you for that excellent question.
I joined the military in 1987, so I can say that I have not only my own personal experience but the experiences of thousands of men and women I’ve had the privilege of serving with and helping. I can absolutely say that things are beginning to improve quite a lot, especially in the last little while. I would highlight that it has been now, unfortunately, over 35 years that we have been asking for things like a parliamentary committee that recently just got tabled for the House Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs report on the experience of women veterans. That study was one year in the making and has 42 recommendations. We are eagerly awaiting the government’s response to that on October 10 and hope they will be reporting and implementing it.
There could be huge changes in seeing money happening now for women-specific issues. Things are definitely changing.
However, I will say that one of the biggest gifts of this government is gender-based analysis, and when it is used fully, properly and robustly, it provides all the answers. On things like homelessness, we must address men’s and women’s homelessness separately because they are so sex- and gender‑specific in how and for whom they do the services. Yet, for reasons I do not understand, we still consistently see conflation of all of the men’s and women’s experiences together in the research and data in a number of the reports from a number of the different departments.
So it’s using sex-disaggregated data. Going from there, the other intersectionalities are gender identity, race, disabilities — all the other aspects. But we can’t even get sex and gender as a standardized part of data collection and analysis. With respect to that, I must admit that I’m surprised we’re not further along after eight years of this government.
Senator Richards: Is there a coupling of government and military concerns, or are they separate? Are the government’s recommendations and the military’s attitude toward homelessness of veterans in sync, or are they separate entities?
Ms. Perron: I don’t know if there are any differences right now.
Senator Richards: Okay.
Ms. Perron: I think they’re all lumped into one.
Senator Richards: Yes, thank you.
Dr. Breeck: I think the topic is taken very seriously, but again, coming from a preventive background, I want to keep highlighting that homelessness is the end product of a whole pile of opportunities before that to have prevented it. It is similar, to me, to suicide prevention. We don’t want any suicides, but we know it’s still going to happen. We need to be focusing in a multidisciplinary way upstream to help prevent the situations that end up with this outcome.
Senator Richards: Thank you very much, both of you.
The Chair: Mr. Ross, would you like to add anything to this? It’s always a little harder when you’re remote. You might find me picking on you so you have a chance to have your say. Over to you.
Mr. Ross: I don’t have anything specific other than that our relationship with VAC has been improving quite a bit. I mentioned that it’s only been in the last few years that many 2SLGBTQI+ veterans have even been aware that we qualify for VAC services, particularly those who were part of the LGBTQ Purge during that period of time and the history.
So with our onboarding in the last several years, there have been some rough starts, particularly around the training of staff within all the areas, but we’ve seen significant improvement. We continue to work with VAC toward improvement.
Ms. Perron: I cannot speak for the last eight years, but for the last four or five years, there have been significant improvements made in the physical, emotional and mental health of women, and we have made gender-specific improvements in some of the programs, such as identifying some of the women-specific ailments, causes of mental illness and programs that are designed to help women compared to men. I see some significant improvement. There is still a lot of work to do. Because there are so many improvements in access to some of these programs, one of the major issues is time sensitivity and the lack of quick responses to some of these requests and needs.
Senator Richards: One more quick thing: Has the suicide rate dropped or increased in the last while? Do you know?
Ms. Perron: I don’t know.
The Chair: We’ll take a quick response to this and then keep going. It is actually a very good question, and we know there are some challenges in that area.
Dr. Breeck: We study it more for those serving than for the veterans. It has only been recently that StatCan had the identifier for veterans, so the suicide rate among veterans is still an area that needs more research, but my understanding is things have been improving statistically on the side of those serving.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you for being here today. I have a couple of questions to ask. For the first question, Dr. Breeck, if you could respond first, and then we’ll go from there.
I’m also a bit fearful some of it might be repetitive, but I think if we hear the same message twice with respect to our understanding of this, we are going to be okay.
We talk about homeless women, and different descriptors today, and how they are much harder to make contact with. They generally don’t reside or sleep in congregate settings like their male counterparts might, and they’re more likely to live precariously in private dwellings, sometimes in dangerous circumstances. You shared some of this testimony. How can both Veterans Affairs Canada and advocacy groups better locate these female veterans who need assistance earlier, before the crises get more and more profound?
Dr. Breeck: Thank you for the important question. I’ll speak specifically about women veterans because that’s the group I have more knowledge about, not to minimize the importance of men, but women have been falling through the cracks more. In my lived experience, every story I’ve heard or come across has been different. However, when we look upstream, a lot of them, to me, had risk factors that could have been identified at the time of transition, and we could have put them into a program with more follow-ups or more robust care options during that transition.
When we look at the statistics, it is usually 10 years out that women veterans have run out of options and are falling through the cracks. We often have a young group who have had problems and often have had a military sexual trauma event early in their careers and are now without resources, or we have people who stayed in longer, didn’t even think they had problems, but 10 years out, they had problems. They are often older and without family or peer supports.
Part of this is always looking at our answers as multifactorial, preventing the problems and identifying them earlier. Every woman I’ve met who has had this experience is an incredible survivor who had done everything before they went on the streets.
If we allowed them to speak more, if they were listened to when they came to some of the different groups who are getting money for advocacy — a lot of them have not had positive experiences as women veterans in being heard or knowing how their situation could have been prevented.
I’m a strong proponent of allowing the stories of impacted women to snowball, of asking, “Who else have you met? Who else do you know who has experienced this same situation?” and learning, bottom-up from them, how we could do better and help sooner or quicker. That’s only one of the aspects, but it’s one we are missing, to really empower those women to make it better for those behind them regarding how the system didn’t work for them. Empower women.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you.
Ms. Perron: I echo my colleague’s comments. I would also add to them.
First, we have to educate service providers who connect with women experiencing homelessness on the ground, as well as the shelters and missions out there, to ensure they know to ask women when they’re interviewing and onboarding them for services.
Second, many women who are homeless don’t think they are veterans. They think they have been released from the Canadian Armed Forces or RCMP and don’t qualify as veterans. There’s a way to connect with them and educate them on the services that are available to them as veterans. I strongly believe one of the best resources we have are other women veterans who make it safe for them and who can establish relationships and trust with these women experiencing or at risk of experiencing homelessness.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you for that. That’s powerful.
If I could turn to Mr. Ross, the question I wanted to ask him is connected in a way. You talked about the LGBTQ+ population and some of their challenges, concerns and improvements over time. Again, in that way, it is not always easy to convince veterans to accept assistance. I was trying to find information on whether there are differences or unique aspects. Is it your finding among the 2SLGBTQI+ population that they accept support?
You have talked about the concerns over time, but now here we are, we are progressing, and we would like to help you with housing and beating homelessness. How receptive are they to the assistance? Is there anything you are seeing that is unique to that group?
Mr. Ross: Thank you, senator.
The biggest challenge is trust. People are coming from a place of broken trust. With many of the people we work with who are 2SLGBTQI+ veterans, their experiences in the military, the homophobia and transphobia they experienced, resulted in a betrayal of trust from the government. For them to then come to another government agency looking for support is difficult. Trust is very difficult to regain.
We see that resistance from veterans. Similar to Ms. Perron’s comment, they don’t consider themselves veterans, and if we get them to the point they approach Veterans Affairs, there’s difficulty in regaining that trust. An early challenge we’ve had is that they approach Veterans Affairs, and the first person they come across there is not trained in working with 2SLGBTQI+ people. They may make an assumption and ask about their husband or other them in some way. Then the trust is immediately broken, and they don’t want to accept the services beyond that point. So there is a lot of resistance from 2SLGBTQI+ veterans with respect to accessing the services — when we can even find them.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Ross.
Senator Anderson: Thank you for your testimony. This is for Dr. Breeck. You listed four key observations and used the phrase “nothing about us without us.” That is often used by Indigenous peoples. Your messaging resonates closely with me, as I am Inuk. The messages you are conveying are the same messages as Indigenous people, who are overrepresented in the criminal courts, the child and family services system and the justice system and who are underserved with respect to health care, child and family services, dental care, housing, food security and safe water. These are our same messages.
So my question to you is this: Given that Indigenous peoples have been conveying the same messages for decades, exactly what you have said, and continue to meet the same barriers in Canada — and nothing much has changed for indigenous peoples across Canada in decades — giving the same messages that you are giving today, what makes your messages different than the messages that we as Indigenous peoples have been conveying to Canada?
In your opinion, what are the best solutions to address the issues that you have identified?
Dr. Breeck: Thank you. I have been smiling, because I grew up in Calgary. I had the opportunity growing up to be exposed to a number of Indigenous cultures and awareness, and it was probably an elder who put me on the pathway into healing and medicine.
I 100% support everything that you have just said. I think, from my lived experience, that there is a huge amount on the federal side that we could be working together on: shared messages, shared problems, higher-than-civilian averages of adverse childhood events, higher homelessness rates as children, addiction issues and gender-based violence issues. A lot of our issues are, unfortunately, very similar.
We, of course, also have Indigenous veterans and Indigenous members of the military. For me it is that holistic look at medicine, where we don’t divide body and mental health as separate — which, again, Veterans Affairs Canada still unfortunately very largely does — and looking at the holistic person, restorative justice and how we can address these issues holistically is the right answer.
I hope that Todd Ross has more insight into this. I think our departments would be stronger working together, and we have a lot of lessons learned that we can be using and sharing with each other, including for prevention of homelessness, suicide, addictions and gender-based violence. I would love to see the departments working closer together in these areas.
The Chair: Thank you.
Can we direct that to Mr. Ross?
Senator Anderson: Sure. Please.
Mr. Ross: Thank you for the question.
I think that the principles around, particularly, “nothing about us without us,” are principles that all people should be looking at, particularly when you are working with groups like people who are homeless or at risk of being homeless. There needs to be that participation. Just because the message has not been heard by governments or departments does not mean it should be ignored by the communities working with them. We have a responsibility to ensure that we have the voice of individuals included within it.
In a recent opportunity we had — we just had the 2SLGBTQI+ forum with Veterans Affairs Canada — one of the most commented upon and appreciated moments was when we invited the Wolastoqey Grand Chief Ron Tremblay to lead a talking circle. It was 2SLGBTQI+ people, including several Indigenous people, who were part of this circle. Everyone walked away from it having benefited from that perspective and those teachings, so I hope that we have space, can work together and can use some of those opportunities so we have the experience and knowledge of elders and leaders within communities who work with us.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Ross.
Senator Yussuff: Thank you, witnesses, for being here.
A challenge, of course, in dealing with this issue is finding appropriate data that reflects reality. Of course, more often than not, we have some data, but it is not complete. In other cases, we have no data, or the data doesn’t tell us anything.
The big challenge for government to provide the appropriate programs that are needed to deal with the reality is organizations who are trying to reach out to women veterans, 2SLGBTQI+ veterans and, of course, trying to better understand how the government could improve the service.
First of all, we have an obligation as a nation. These are people who served our country, and we should do better in how we take care of them.
The big question that I have — and I don’t know what the answer is — is this: We know there is some data but that it is incomplete, so how can we better find a way to collect data to reflect the reality of what people’s experiences are? Then you could design programs to better assist them.
You have all said very eloquently from each perspective that women — and not just women — could be struggling with more than one issue. How do we provide complete services?
Homelessness is a unique part of it, but if you are not treating the other symptoms, addressing the homelessness question may not solve the issue at the end of the day.
I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but can you suggest anything?
Obviously, Dr. Breeck, you made four very specific recommendations.
Ms. Perron — and equally Mr. Ross — can you provide some specifics that could help this committee, recognizing we are building on some of the work the House committee has already done on this issue?
Ms. Perron: Yes, it is very difficult. As long as they are invisible, no services can be provided to women or other portions of the population that we can’t find. I think the best way for us to keep track of them is during the transition between the military or the RCMP, serving members who are leaving and transitioning out of those organizations and into the civilian world — that they get grasped by Veterans Affairs Canada, or VAC, and followed to ensure that they have all the services they need, even though they don’t qualify for a pension and perhaps are not going to be receiving those services, but at least to be able to identify them and support them and make sure that they are seen.
The other way is for — like I mentioned earlier — those service providers that are going to be providing the wraparound services and transitional housing to be able to identify them, incorporate surveys into their onboarding programs and ensure that organizations like the Royal Canadian Legion, Veterans’ House, the Ottawa Mission and others that provide services tie into each other and are connected somehow so that we know who’s out there.
Lastly, connectors that can go on the ground — boots on the ground — and identify who those people are and make sure that they are connected to the services.
The Chair: Thank you.
Go ahead, Dr. Breeck.
Dr. Breeck: I’m feeling old, that I have seen it enough times now that I am comfortable saying that the data is available and that different government agencies sometimes choose not to provide it, because it doesn’t meet people’s services.
I see over and over again the requirement of Sex and Gender Equity in Research Guidelines, or SAGER principles, the sex and gender dissemination, so we might show the separate male and female data for another topic, but as soon as it says “military” or it says “veterans,” somehow we forget all the rules, conflate everything and just have that one term where everything is put together. We are not using those same principles of sex and gender identification when we use the words “military” and “veterans,” and that includes in homelessness. Applying that data is one issue.
The other issue is the definitions. They are really important. What is homelessness? How are we defining that? Are we including housing insecurity? Are we including someone who is not at a homeless shelter?
We haven’t talked about domestic violence shelters. Again, a lot of the housing and homeless data does not include the data from the domestic violence shelters, which is statistically more likely where the women are. There is the importance of defining all of our terms and doing research that includes Chapter 9, which is a gift from our Indigenous brothers and sisters regarding how important it is to have participatory accountability to the people you are doing research on. We should be using the values that are already in Chapter 9 of the Tri-Council Policy Statement: Ethical Conduct for Research Involving Humans, or TCPS2, which is our ethics for research. If those were applied to veterans and military as well, I think we would already be a big step forward.
The Chair: Mr. Ross, you have about 30 seconds.
Mr. Ross: Sure. We are just starting a research project now with funding from Infrastructure Canada. There is very little research available. The first thing that we will be doing is talking with veterans who have experienced homelessness and their perspectives. It is very difficult to reach 2SLGBTQI+ veterans if we don’t know where they are.
I think if we have more visibility around that part, we can serve them better because they will know we are there and then we can connect them with the existing services that are out there. We will know that if people approach a homelessness service, they are receiving safe and appropriate care, that those people have been trained and there are not those initial barriers when people go to access services. Eventually, we hope they are connected, but the most important thing for us right now is to ensure there is safety and that they get the services they need.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Ross.
Senator Al Zaibak: I want to thank our witnesses, Dr. Breeck, Ms. Perron and my long-standing friend Todd Ross, for being with us today. I believe that all Canadians are aware of the homelessness problem in general, especially in major cities. I’m not sure, however, that there is a public awareness of its magnitude and the existence of the problem among veterans. My apologies for missing the first part of your presentation. You might have addressed that.
I would like for us to know the primary contributing factors to homelessness among veterans in particular. Are there any specific points in veterans’ transition from the military to civilian life where intervention could be most effective in preventing homelessness? My question is to all of you, at the risk of repeating some of the points you mentioned before.
Dr. Breeck: Again, we are still doing research now. There had been some research done in 2023 on some of the risk factors. In my lived experience and from what I have seen over and over again, and again, if I just keep to women veterans, they often have undiagnosed medical issues on their way out, especially things like head trauma. Traumatic brain injuries are underdiagnosed in the women who are being released. Unfortunately, we often also have some kind of violence, including intimate partner violence, gender-based violence and military sexual trauma.
Again, I don’t think we are maximized in identifying, helping and supporting those women especially. It is very much a male issue as well, but that entire concept of military sexual trauma, if it hasn’t been identified and cared for with resources in place when they get out, that is a major area we can still improve upon for the veteran community, especially the women veterans. How do we go to help at a drop-in centre when we don’t know who’s going to be there? How do we know to go into a place that is still run by men and has male volunteers who could be the people who caused our trauma? We need female-specific areas, and for many of the programs we don’t have those safe spaces for women to come into these programs because of that gender-based violence, which has happened to too many in the military.
I have been surprised by how many of them had already experienced shelters or homelessness as children, so it wasn’t so scary for them. They were more willing to go there or assumed that’s how they were going to end up. These are things that could have easily been identified at recruitment to help educate them and make sure they are aware of all their resources prior to their release.
Again, on intersectionality — to me, women are very intersectional. There is no question that there is a compounding of the risk with extra intersectionality, like Indigenous women, racialized women and women with LGBTQ issues. All of those make their risks for all of these issues that much higher.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Ms. Perron: I would agree with all of those, and I would add that women leaving those organizations often don’t have the network of other women veterans to support them. They have been serving in professions where there are very few women; it’s still 14% to 15% in the military. They haven’t developed the women’s support network and the bonds to help them in rougher, challenging times. That will make a difference. That’s a contributing factor.
Also, of course, there are mental issues that have been diagnosed in a different way in a very male-dominated environment and the physical aspects. Many of these women who come to our centre have said that their doctors don’t recognize or support some of their medical conditions like fibromyalgia, anxiety through menopause and that period of time, pelvic issues and so on. All of these contribute to them not being well and not having the supportive network to help them lead a healthy life transitioning out of the military or the RCMP.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Mr. Ross: Thank you. Good to see you, senator. I agree with many of those things that also contribute to these issues for 2SLGBTQI+ people.
You know, life is hard, and we go through peaks and valleys. When things get hard and people get to that point where they are about to experience homelessness or are at risk, having the ability to access those networks and stay connected is a way to prevent it. We don’t currently have that. I think we have to work on ensuring that those connectors are there, and that when we do get into those difficult points in our life, we have that support and safety so that we can reach out.
The Chair: Thank you. We have about five minutes left. I want to pose a question to you all as a comment. I also think we probably need someone from the RCMP advocacy community, too. I would like to crosswalk this and see what the common experiences are. That’s a note to myself as chair of this committee.
Overall, there is no way of distilling this down to one issue. This is a complex and wicked problem with many threads to pull. If I were to ask one of you, knowing that you have presented a very comprehensive list of issues, recommendations and solutions, from your perspective, what would you say is your priority recommendation to this committee out of all the things we have talked about today? I know it’s going to be hard, but Mr. Ross, would you like to go first?
Mr. Ross: Yes. I think the priority recommendation for this committee, from a 2SLGBTQI+ veteran perspective, is that we really need more work done to understand the challenges facing 2SLGBTQI+ veterans and that there has not been, in my opinion, a large amount of research done into working with the community. Beyond that, I think that service providers across the country must have the support and training to be able to work with 2SLGBTQI+ veterans, and there must be publicity around that so people know that they can access those services in a safe way. I think those are the biggest issues for me.
Ms. Perron: I would say educate yourselves. A few months ago, I didn’t know this was such a significant issue. I had heard about it, I see it in the news, I thought they were invisible. Then we had the Legion come to the Pepper Pod and tell us that there are 134 women veterans in Ontario alone who are experiencing homelessness. I asked, “Don’t they have access to VAC services? Aren’t they getting pensions? Aren’t they getting medical?” There are some members of the military who have to leave for non-service-related reasons — degenerative diseases, eyesight — and they find themselves at the other end of the country because they have been posted with no services and no connections to family, and they get into trouble. There are more of these than we think. I would say educate yourselves, learn from other segments of society, to see what hasn’t been done and what needs to be done, and follow through.
Dr. Breeck: We didn’t actually bring it up, but I’m a big fan of learning from others and not reinventing wheels. I think the U.S. military and U.S. Veterans Affairs have done a lot of really important work in this area. They have a Center for Women Veterans with a 1-800 number that has a woman veteran on the other side who you can call. That is a low barrier to access, to say, “Here’s my problem. I don’t even know where to start.”
We don’t have any similar safe spaces. They have training programs that require certification and updates for dealing with or helping and supporting homeless veterans to make sure the front-line staff at Veterans Affairs and health care providers have knowledge of how best to support in these areas. They have a program called WoVeN which is specifically designed for women veterans, to bridge them out of the military and to the civilian side and to provide them, again, with very low-barrier access to all the knowledge, care and support they might need that is unique to being a woman.
They also have military sexual trauma, or MST, screening as a mandatory part of their release, and they provide it barrier‑free — no claim, no diagnosis. You just say you served and were experiencing military sexual trauma, and you have access to the care and supports you need. We don’t have anything equivalent in our programs, which is why people still keep falling through the cracks.
The Chair: Thank you, Dr. Breeck. This is a very short committee meeting, and I know my colleagues have many more questions for you. From all of us, we understand that trying to deal with housing insecurity — because it isn’t just homelessness; it’s the full spectrum that gets you there — is very complex. We have heard what you have had to say, and it has been extremely valuable. On behalf of myself and my fellow senators, we would like to thank you very much for your testimony today.
I would like to extend that thanks to Dr. Breeck, honorary Colonel Perron and Mr. — potentially the future “Dr.” — Ross for what you brought to the table today. I wish everybody a good afternoon.
(The committee adjourned.)