THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES AND OCEANS
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Thursday, December 7, 2023
The Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans met with videoconference this day at 9:09 a.m. [ET] to examine and report on Canada’s seal populations and their effect on Canada’s fisheries.
Senator Bev Busson (Deputy Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Deputy Chair: Today, we will be sitting, and — as we are a little bit late in starting — we may add another 10 minutes or so to our day if we need to. My name is Bev Busson, senator from British Columbia, and I have the pleasure of chairing this meeting today.
We are conducting a meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. Should any technical challenges arise, particularly in relation to interpretation, please signal this to the chair or clerk and we will work to resolve the issue.
Before we begin, I would like to take a few moments to allow the members of the committee to introduce themselves.
Senator Duncan: Good morning and welcome. I am Senator Pat Duncan from Yukon. Thank you for being here.
Senator Cordy: Good morning and welcome to you all. I’m Jane Cordy, a senator from Nova Scotia.
[Translation]
Senator Aucoin: Réjean Aucoin from Nova Scotia.
[English]
I am from Chéticamp. This is important for the seals.
Senator Ataullahjan: Salma Ataullahjan from Ontario.
Senator Ravalia: Good morning and welcome. Mohamed Ravalia from Newfoundland and Labrador.
Senator Kutcher: I’m Stan Kutcher, Nova Scotia.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you.
On October 4, 2022, the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans was authorized to examine and report on Canada’s seal populations and their effect on Canada’s fisheries.
Today, under this mandate, the committee will be hearing from the following witnesses for our first panel: Dr. Ahmed Al‑Rawi, Associate Professor, School of Communication, Simon Fraser University; Dr. Jaigris Hodson, Canada Research Chair in Digital Communication for the Public Interest and Associate Professor, Royal Roads University; and Marcus Kolga, Founder of DisinfoWatch and Senior Fellow at the Macdonald-Laurier Institute.
On behalf of the members of the committee, I want to thank you for being here today. I understand that each of our witnesses will be delivering some opening remarks. Following your presentations, members of the committee will be anxious to ask you some questions.
Mr. Kolga, you have the chair.
Marcus Kolga, Founder, Senior Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, DisinfoWatch: Thank you, Madam Chair and other members of the committee, for the honour of inviting me here to speak with you today.
I’ve been monitoring and analyzing Russian information and influence operations for the past 15 years. I will focus my remarks on the mechanics of information operations, the role that influencers play and how Russia exploits issues like the seal hunt to disparage Canada’s environmental reputation and divide our society.
Advocacy campaigns, regardless of intent, aim to shape public opinion and impact government policies. These campaigns often rely on developing narratives that resonate broadly; sometimes they include factually inaccurate or, in the worst cases, intentionally misleading information, commonly known as disinformation.
One of the most effective ways to convey these narratives is through influencers: public figures, celebrities, academics and former elected officials. Their endorsement and support can dramatically increase the impact of any information campaign or operation.
In terms of the seal hunt, most activists who promote animal welfare are presumably motivated by the purpose of their cause. Their intention may not be to mislead or deceive. They may even believe that they’re justified in using any image or video, regardless of context, so long as it supports their cause. In 2006, as we all know, former Beatle Paul McCartney appeared on an ice floe in the Gulf of St. Lawrence for a photo op with infant seal pups. After dismissing Inuit traditions, he accused traditional hunters of selling “the baby seal skins for fashions and fur.” He posed next to whitecoat seals in photos taken during that trip, and the images and his accusations give the false impression that infant seals are being killed for their fur.
Whether intentional or not, these images and statements by influencers wield the power to manipulate public opinion, potentially imposing unintended consequences on the livelihoods of real people and on the environment.
My research has also shown that the Russian government has used state-controlled media to manipulate information about the seal hunt over the past years, with two primary objectives. The first is to denigrate Canada’s international reputation — that is, to present Canada as a nation that condones and defends cruelty toward helpless animals and provoke doubts about Canada’s commitment to environmental sustainability. For example, a March 2009 article on RT is titled “Will Olympics in Canada help stop baby seal hunting?” It uses pejorative terms like “annual seal slaughter” to mischaracterize the hunt.
Conversely, Russia has presented itself as a heroic protector of seals. A 2009 ban on hunting baby seals has been intentionally mischaracterized by Russian state media to falsely suggest an outright ban on seal hunting. This confusion has impacted influencers like Brigitte Bardot, who condemned Canada’s “notorious clubbing to death of seals” to publicly thank and praise Vladimir Putin for protecting them. Meanwhile, Russia, which banned seal imports from Canada in 2011, continues its seal hunt today. The poaching of Russian baby seals also continues in Putin’s corrupt Russia.
This is part of the Kremlin’s second objective, which is to present Russia as a responsible global environmental leader and a protector of Indigenous populations. Nothing could be further from the truth. Last year, 2,500 seals washed up on the shores of the Caspian Sea. Experts cite environmental degradation and overfishing as the causes.
Environmental racism has long been a serious problem for Russian Indigenous tribes, whose lands remain colonized and exploited by corrupt Russian oligarchs.
In 2019, Evgenia Chirikova, a Russian environmental activist forced into exile due to her criticisms of the Putin regime’s environmental record and mistreatment of Indigenous populations, wrote that Gazprom, the Russian state-controlled gas company, had expropriated lands belonging to the Indigenous peoples of Yamal. The extraction and processing of gas have left the Indigenous Nenets tribes without pastures for their reindeer herds.
Yet influencer and Canadian actress Pamela Anderson told RT in 2015 that Russia has had “. . . a positive and beneficial impact on the environment and the welfare of animals —” and that:
— Russia was very instrumental in helping to remove the demand for seal pelts from Canada, where so many seal pups are slaughtered each year . . .
Thank you again for inviting me to testify today. I look forward to your questions.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much. I will next ask Dr. Hodson for comments, please.
Jaigris Hodson, Canada Research Chair in Digital Communication for the Public Interest, Associate Professor, Royal Roads University, as an individual: Thank you so much.
I am thankful for the opportunity to share my work with you today. I come to you from the unceded ancestral lands of the Lekwungen-speaking people, the Esquimalt and Songhees ancestors and families.
As part of my mandate as Canada Research Chair, I study the misinformation, disinformation, polarization and conspiracy theories that occur with increasing regularity on digital platforms like social media.
You’ve asked us all to come and speak about disinformation and how we can combat it with regard to the seal hunt. To understand that, we need to understand how disinformation is spread unintentionally and the reasons for its spread, because it is only in stopping the spread that we can stop disinformation. My esteemed colleague has called out information operations, which I’ll touch on a bit.
To understand disinformation, we must first understand the related terms “misinformation” and “information operations.” Misinformation is any false or misleading information which is not necessarily deliberately spread. We all know maybe an uncle or someone in our social circle who shares misinformation and believes it to be true, or they will share information without checking. These people are not acting in bad faith, but they can still be spreading this false information about, for example, the seal hunt. We need to be aware of these people because they are an easier place to stop the spread of false or misleading information.
Disinformation refers to false or misleading information that is deliberately spread, as my colleague talked about, with the intent to sometimes destabilize people, achieve monetary gains or status, or for specific political ends. These information operations, like Russia’s, is also sometimes referred to as propaganda. That is really a tool for geopolitical destabilization. Information operations build upon disinformation, but it is the misinformation — the non-deliberate spread — that really seems to make these things go viral. While a given piece of misinformation, like with the seal hunt as described by my colleague, may begin with malevolent actors outside the country, it might end up being spread by everybody — by people we know and trust.
To address disinformation, it is difficult or sometimes impossible to deal with somebody in another country and information operations. We don’t have a lot of control over what Russia does. However, it is also difficult to deal with disinformation of other types, like from influencers, because they are making money and status by spreading it. This means that the best way to address disinformation is by influencing the people who are sharing it innocently without monetary status or geopolitical gain.
To do that, we have to look at the regular Canadians who are spreading it. We can’t just shut down the platforms or people who are spreading it. One cannot and should not address misinformation through censorship. Canada is a free country, and Canadians place high value on ideas like freedom of speech, so attempting to address misinformation via censorship or shutting down digital platforms will backfire.
My team has done research involving the unmoderated social network Telegram. The activities going on through Telegram show that when people are de-platformed from mainstream sites like Twitter or Facebook, they regroup on other platforms where they are able to attract more like-minded members to their group, positioning themselves as freedom fighters who have been unfairly repressed by the establishment. We are currently studying, for example, the Children’s Health Defence fund on Telegram, which is an anti-vaccine group founded by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and have noticed that the group uses the fact that they were kicked off Twitter as a way to garner additional support. I would urge you all to not think about censorship or de‑platforming as solutions because they tend to run contrary to Canadian values and are also likely to backfire. Censorship or de-platforming from one venue simply causes groups to go where they are unmoderated.
How do we stop disinformation? “Pre-bunking,” which is getting the correct information out to regular people before they hear the negative information, seems to work. So does debunking — that is, telling regular people the true information later on — but we need to reach the right people. The power of community is very important. We want to reach the people who are unknowingly spreading misinformation without knowing any better, and we want to get the information out to people in communities, to community leaders. To pre-bunk or debunk effectively, you must consider whom the messenger is, so maybe some of those influencers, but we’re not aiming for someone like Paul McCartney. We are aiming for the micro- or medium-sized influencers in our communities. We are aiming for trusted community members, Indigenous elders, community and faith leaders, even online influencers, and we want to partner with them to deliver the evidence-based messaging that people need to hear about the seal hunt. We want to provide these influencers with compelling messages that they can adapt for their communities, but also let them lead. You need to take a collaborative rather than a top-down prescriptive approach.
Another method that can sometimes be effective is telling the story of individuals and communities — telling the story of seal hunters, their families and Indigenous communities who benefit from the hunt. These kinds of approaches help to personalize and humanize evidence-based messaging.
Finally, I would urge you not to try to convince those people on the extreme ends of belief systems. We are not going for the people who already believe that any hunting is bad, because they, like the people spreading disinformation, are too invested in the ideas they are sharing. Instead, your goal should be to influence the silent majority in the centre, who can take the evidence back to their family, friends and community in order to help the people they know realize that they might be sharing misinformation without intending to.
Thank you. I look forward to your questions.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you, Dr. Hodson.
Ahmed Al-Rawi, Associate Professor, School of Communication, Simon Fraser University, as an individual: Thank you very much, honourable senators and committee members. I appreciate your invitation to address the committee.
I would like to begin by stating that I am not an expert in communications around fisheries or seals, as my area of expertise is related to media and communication studies with a focus on disinformation. My testimony today is related to disinformation in general and how to combat it.
I have done some preliminary research on the topic of seal hunting, and my observations are based only on anecdotal evidence and some qualitative assessment of what I have noticed online. Thorough future research is needed, such as conducting a systematic digital and content analysis of disinformation about this issue to better identify these unfounded claims, their sources and possible impacts.
Misleading claims about the seal harvest mostly fall within a few thematic areas, especially around the sustainability of the seal hunt and animal welfare standards. There are claims, for example, about it being uniquely cruel since it allegedly follows inhumane practices. There are also misleading and unfounded accounts that refer to the alleged lack of regulation around hunting baby seals and that seal numbers are dramatically dwindling in Canada.
Before I discuss how to combat disinformation, it is important to mention where this disinformation spreads. My first observation is that one can find misleading accounts on the search engine Google itself. For example, if you search for the phrase “Is it illegal to hunt baby seals in Canada?” the first highlighted results will show animal rights groups rather than the website of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans Canada, or DFO. Some of these accounts do not align with Canadian seal hunting regulations and contain some unfounded claims.
Similar claims can be found in Facebook ads, where audiences can be micro-targeted based on their age, gender and geographic location. For example, one animal rights group purchased 41 ads targeting Canada and containing petitions and some unfounded claims. These cost over US$10,000 and created more than 1.2 million ad impressions, which is how many people watched the ads.
As for social media posts, there are many viral hashtags, which are especially popular on Instagram, like #savetheseals and #savebabyseals. Any story referencing seals contains what we call a “human interest element,” especially if the seals are still babies. There are often graphic images about seals that are more clickable than other posts containing facts about them. For example, one video was viewed over 9 million times on Instagram alone, and some of these posts that some animal rights groups disseminate are shared by celebrities who have huge followers, mostly targeting Canada.
In terms of solutions, I think that DFO itself can be more active on this issue on social media, and its official website can have more updated facts and information about it. I also strongly suggest creating a fact-checking initiative at DFO, mostly consisting of scientists who are able to debunk misinformation with facts and scientific evidence. These efforts need to be shared with the public via various online platforms.
In countering unfounded claims, it is also necessary from the beginning to acknowledge if there are any truths in them and then prepare evidence-based factual content. It is also useful to address the emotional aspects of the issue and recognize the psychological reasons behind the support and spread of misinformation. More importantly, it is very useful to communicate uncertainties, especially in relation to ongoing and unfolding developments about the seal harvest and hunting. Also, offering visual and textual comparisons with other animals consumed by humans is extremely useful.
Second, there is a need to conduct pre-bunking or inoculation initiatives via education. I agree with my colleague Ms. Hodson on this. This proactive strategy involves providing prior warning for people that they might be misled and refuting potential misinformation in advance, thereby making individuals resistant to future misinformation.
Third, the message needs to be clear, simple and based on evidence by, for example, avoiding jargon to ensure clarity. It is also important to be concise and not overwhelm people with a lot of technical information. To establish legitimacy, it is imperative to highlight the scientific consensus on this issue by referencing credible research.
To sum up, there need to be proactive measures, more active personal and public engagement and tailored communication strategies. Combatting disinformation about the seal harvest and seal hunting needs to be treated as a collective effort, for there are many sides that can be involved, like various government departments, NGOs, Indigenous communities, schools and tech companies.
Thank you very much for your time.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much, indeed.
Senator Petten: Thank you very much for the very interesting presentations. It has been very difficult to sit on the committee and listen to the impact that the seals have had on the cultural pieces of the seals and fishing. I’m sure my other colleagues will be asking questions around some of these things, but how much money will it cost to look at putting together some of this information, or how do we try to look at even the government, or DFO, to say that this is an important issue? How do they change their practices?
Just a couple of weeks ago, in St. John’s, Newfoundland and Labrador, there was a meeting with the European Union looking at different products, and there was a protest of the seal hunt at the time. The issue that they were protesting was not even on the agenda about selling the products. I’m just wondering, how do we even get that attention?
I’m sure that it is happening in other places, for example, with Global Affairs Canada right now with respect to the Ukraine war.
How do we try to get moving, even, on getting this attention, even with our own government?
Mr. Kolga: Thank you so much for that question.
I would say that with the issue of the seal hunt right now, the perspectives from environmentalists, who are advancing negative information about it, have become quite entrenched. At this point, it’s going to be very difficult to try to change those perceptions, both within Canada and outside of it.
I think my colleagues have outlined some fundamental ways that we can start doing that, and that’s education and such, but you asked how much this might cost.
I’m going to bring up an anecdote. Last night, I was doing more research on the seal hunt and came across a film by the name of Huntwatch. You might be familiar with it. It was produced in 2015 for the Discovery Channel, and its narrator is our beloved Canadian Ryan Reynolds, who is one of Hollywood’s top actors.
I started watching the trailer for this film. Clearly, somebody put millions of dollars into producing this documentary. This is one documentary that costs millions of dollars.
The images that came across the screen were horrifying. It was like a horror movie. It was one adorable white seal pup after another covered in blood, and these blurry images of Inuit hunters stalking these animals and going after journalists and activists who were on these ice floes. Again, this was millions of dollars that was put into this production.
The unfortunate outcome of that is to reinforce those negative perceptions that suggest this is a barbaric practice. Worst of all — and this is something that I haven’t come across in my research before appearing here today — is the harm that this creates toward the Inuit community and the perceptions of the Inuit community; they are portrayed as barbaric hunters stalking these animals. It is essentially an incitement to hate this community. This is one aspect that we haven’t looked at.
I think one of the solutions to addressing this issue is to highlight to Canadians those harms that are being created, whether it’s the incitement of hate toward this community or the environmental impacts and the fact that fish stocks are as low as they are, and raising the alarm about them. This is something that we’re not doing at this point.
That’s one way that we can begin addressing this problem.
Senator Ravalia: Thank you to all of our witnesses for that very enlightening dialogue.
My question is for Ms. Hodson. You have alluded to methods of countering information and disinformation. I’m wondering, from our perspective, are certain media best suited to this initiative? Do you think we could use influencers and other better-known personalities to counter some of this information, recognizing that it’s very well embedded?
Ms. Hodson: That’s a great question. Thank you so much, senator.
I think you have to take an approach that is specific to different media forms, and by that I mean that there are some influencers on Instagram, for example, who would be very good choices, maybe, to spread the message on that platform; however, those same people won’t work on the X — formerly Twitter — platform or on Facebook or TikTok. The idea is to find community leaders wherever you go.
Community leaders can even be people physically in the community. I mentioned faith leaders, for example, or people who work in universities or other areas of the community.
I think the idea would be to search out those people who have that micro to medium influence in Canada on different platforms and also seed the message to people who work in schools and churches, et cetera, who are pillars of their communities in place as well.
It is by taking a really broad-spectrum approach that you’ll be able to reach people, because if we just, as the government, go forward with a message, there are so many Canadians that don’t trust the messaging from governments. If you go forward with a message, even from some journalists — I think you have probably heard in your circles that Donald Trump, for example, talked about “the lying media,” and there are people in Canada who think that “the lying media” is a thing.
If we go to community influencers, and we use digital tools to identify them on platforms and also work with communities, I think we will get much further in the pre-bunking and debunking that we have talked about today.
Senator Ravalia: Thank you.
The Deputy Chair: Would any other witnesses like to jump in on this question?
Mr. Kolga?
Mr. Kolga: I completely agree with Dr. Hodson. I would only add that when we’re talking about influencers, we might look at chefs, for example. We have popularized the consumption of elk, caribou and various other wild animals in Canada. Why can’t we do the same with seals? This is not an overnight solution, but I think if we can identify those influential chefs and such in our cities and ask them to introduce seal meat onto their menus, this is one way that we can directly address this problem and normalize the fact that it’s a perfectly normal practice to hunt seals for these communities.
Senator Ravalia: My follow-up question is to you, Mr. Kolga. Where in the priority levels of the federal government do you think misinformation and disinformation stands? The reason I ask this question is, as Senator Petten alluded to, there were very high-level Canada-European Union meetings in St. John’s, the hub of the seal industry for Newfoundland and Labrador, and one got the sense that this question of sealing and exports, et cetera, was very much a small tail-end issue. The majority of the agenda was based primarily on hydrogen and new energy warehouses and so on.
To what extent do we have to work to, perhaps, make the federal government aware of how critical this issue is? We’ve struggled with DFO historically.
Mr. Kolga: That’s an excellent and difficult question to answer. I think that the federal government has, certainly, over the past two years — but also looking back to 2016 and the U.S. elections — started taking the threat of misinformation and disinformation quite seriously.
I think that we focus primarily on external threats, which is very good; it’s a good start. But I don’t think that we have ever really focused in on how those sorts of narratives affect our Indigenous communities, communities that are more remote and rural communities.
I’ll be completely honest with you — when I received the invitation to appear here today, I thought it was coming a bit out of left field. Also, I had not thought about how misinformation and disinformation affect the seal hunt. Unfortunately, I think this specific issue is probably quite low on the priority scale of the federal government, but, clearly, I think it provides a very important example of how our communities in Canada are being threatened by disinformation.
My research over the past week has demonstrated that it should be a much higher priority for the federal government, with regard to both domestic and foreign disinformation. One suggestion I would have, given the meeting that happened in St. John’s, is for Global Affairs and this ministry to look for partnerships in Europe. I would argue that there are other Indigenous organizations within Europe; the Finno-Ugric Indigenous community — a community I’m part of — has a very strong organization within Europe and a very loud voice within the European Union, consisting of the minority communities in the European Arctic and the Nordic countries, and Finland as well. We should work with them. I think they would understand the issues of the Inuit community and may act as an influencer and voice within the European Union to help advocate for them and advance them.
Senator Ravalia: Thank you so much.
The Deputy Chair: Do you have a comment, Dr. Al-Rawi?
Mr. Al-Rawi: I don’t, because I think the issue has been covered by my colleagues in detail. Thank you very much.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you.
Senator Ataullahjan: Senator Ravalia kind of asked my question. I wanted to know about the role of the federal government. The sealing industry doesn’t have — as we said — millions of dollars to spend. Through the study, I have learned how most sealers are struggling.
Why doesn’t the federal government support them — as well as influencers? As someone who is on Instagram but didn’t venture onto TikTok, I can see the influence there because of the number of things that are forwarded. Why hasn’t the industry found a champion? Has there ever been an effort to find a champion?
Mr. Kolga: I can’t answer that question. I don’t know what efforts have gone into finding those influencers and champions.
I’m going to quote you, senator, from a previous session when you said that “. . . lambs are . . . very cute, yet we continue to eat them.” This goes back to my comment about finding those influencers — chefs and such — who will normalize the consumption of seals. I don’t know if any efforts have gone into finding those sorts of influencers who will try to convey that message. But Canadians need to realize that eating seal is as normal as eating a lamb chop or a veal sandwich. That’s where we need to get this narrative to. That should be the outcome.
How we achieve that is through a strategy, as Dr. Hodson mentioned earlier; it’s education. We should be talking to all of our provinces and injecting this information about the seal hunt and the culture in these Indigenous communities and the Inuit community into our education curriculum.
My sons, who just entered university over the past two years, know nothing about this culture — nothing. They are not taught about it. This is where it really starts: in our schools, so that future generations aren’t fooled by this sort of misinformation and disinformation.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much. Dr. Hodson, I see you have something you would like to add.
Ms. Hodson: Yes, I think we do, to a certain extent, have influencers already out there. So for example, I follow Tanya Tagaq on Twitter. She is an outspoken supporter of Indigenous seal hunting. Tanya Tagaq is also an Indigenous celebrity. If we can find more people like her and help promote them, I think they would work with you on this issue.
I have learned a tremendous amount about the Indigenous seal hunt by following Tanya, so there are already celebrities, and we can absolutely build on that; I love the idea of involving chefs, for example. But also, finding the people that are already out there with the messaging you want and who have a higher profile is a good place to start.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you. Dr. Al-Rawi?
Mr. Al-Rawi: Thank you, senator. The basic idea we are dealing with here is that misinformation clearly harms Canada’s economy, and also that this kind of misinformation harms Indigenous communities.
Personally speaking, I don’t think the Canadian government needs to spend millions of dollars to combat this kind of misinformation. I think the solution to it is more straightforward: using facts and scientific consensus about what is happening and reporting all the available uncertainties about the seal hunt and harvest.
We don’t know everything about it, and that has to be communicated clearly to the public.
We need to recognize the emotional aspect of this issue. Some people are very much attached to the seal. It looks cute, honestly; it looks nice, right? This is especially true of baby seals. We have to take that into account when we combat this kind of misinformation.
I think the solution is more straightforward. It will require some effort from DFO, especially by bringing in scientists who can debunk the misinformation and clearly communicate this on different platforms. I looked at the website of DFO, and I did not see a lot of engagement with the public when it comes to this issue. We don’t have, for example, someone young on TikTok from DFO who would be able to use very simple language to talk about this issue.
Unfortunately, that kind of engagement is lacking; however, I don’t think it will require millions of dollars. Thank you.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator McPhedran: I want to thank every one of our witnesses today. I have found each of your presentations to be very helpful, and to have brought perspectives that I don’t think we have really had up until now. It’s also forward-looking. It’s looking at how we get out of what appears to be an entrenched and frozen situation, particularly for the Indigenous peoples who are affected.
My question is geared to, if you will, the other side. Can you help us understand better, given your expertise regarding online presence and the kinds of resources that are required for a campaign of this nature? I’m struck by something that happened in 2006: Paul McCartney on the ice with baby seal pups. We’re sitting here in 2023, and the ripple effect of that is still huge.
I’m hoping you can help us understand the drivers of this messaging over all of these years, right up until today. I have something else to say about the likelihood of DFO taking on this kind of campaign, but my question is more geared toward those who are still driving the campaign.
Mr. Kolga: I’ll quickly start. I just want to follow up on something Dr. Al-Rawi said about posting facts. I think this is a great idea. We need to get those facts out there on the DFO website. But then they need to be popularized. That’s the problem. Just being on a government ministry website is not going to help, because that’s not where Canadians go. They are not going to that website on a regular basis. So, we need to figure out a way to popularize the facts and that data.
Now, as to the question, senator, about who might be behind these campaigns: I’m not an expert on the seal hunt or environmental disinformation, but it appears there are some very well-funded organizations that are tasked with advocating for these sorts of issues.
The seal hunt appears to be one that could drive fundraising, for example. Fuzzy little seals make great pictures. I mentioned that documentary where you have horrific images of white seals covered in blood. That drives emotion. It stokes anger. When you see these images online — and they are posted on Facebook ads, as my colleagues have mentioned — that drives clicks. That drives people to donate maybe $10, or $15, or $20.
As with any large issue, I believe an industry has grown out of this; that industry requires these images to keep going and to keep paying the salaries of people within these organizations. I suspect that part of the problem lies in the fact that this industry that has been created is driven by images of the seal hunt, unfortunately.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator McPhedran: Could the other witnesses respond to my question? Thank you so much. It was to all our witnesses. It’s the question about the drivers of the campaign and, from your expertise, what you would share with us about the resources and perhaps the connections among the drivers.
Mr. Al-Rawi: Thank you, senator. I think the example you gave is excellent because Paul McCartney, as my colleague Ms. Hodson mentioned, is one of those celebrities. There is the element of credibility. People trust these celebrities. They believe in what they say.
I think we can also make use of that by bringing in other credible, trustworthy people. We have many in Canada and elsewhere who could comment on this issue. We will only ask them to just present the facts. We will not ask them to say anything wrong — only the facts, so that people will be better informed about them.
People are more attuned to credibility in any area, especially if the persons involved are already famous. When it comes, for example, to the TV industry, we have a lot of personalities who could help us with this issue. Thank you.
Ms. Hodson: I am very excited by what my two colleagues have said today, senator, because I think they are both right. Celebrity has driven this forward.
Regarding the cute images, think of what you probably share on the internet. I know I share images of cute animals — cats and puppies, right? Seals are cute. Seeing those pictures is very distressing. Strong emotion is a huge driver of these issues online and can even occur after many years.
We need other messages that inspire that strong emotion in a different direction. For example, let’s see the Inuit baby who is going to grow up strong because they are eating seal in their family. Let’s see them with their families. Let’s see how the families hunt together and how that sustains a community. Let’s tell those stories, of communities that would be lost without this. Let’s tell the stories of ethical hunting. Of course, you’re not going to reach the Paul McCartney-style vegans, but they are on the extreme side. We can’t worry about the extremes. We want to reach those people in the middle who will see that smiling baby and go, “You know what? Maybe we need a bit of this kind of hunting to sustain that baby.”
I would find a way to tell a compelling narrative with an adequate amount of emotion to counteract the negative emotion that people are getting from these other often — as my colleague mentioned — well-funded campaigns.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator Kutcher: Thanks to all of our guests. Could I summarize some of your commentary and then ask each of you one simple question? Hopefully, you’ll say yes.
I have learned in the Senate that this is not a court of law. We can’t actually cross-examine witnesses, but we can say all sorts of things to witnesses. Sometimes, I wish that we could cross-examine some of our witnesses for the disinformation that they bring us.
We have learned much about disinformation. My own field is the health field. I have worked with some of you. Thank you very much for that work. COVID has shown us that we have to be in here for the long term and it’s heavy lifting. It’s not something that will go away quickly.
To summarize what I have heard, there are malignant state and non-state actors involved in this; there are ideologically driven non-state actors involved in this. Furthermore, this issue has been around for a long time and has become entrenched in the hearts and minds of the public nationally and internationally.
The first address to this is to recognize that what we are dealing with is actually disinformation — Marcus, you made that comment — and refer to it as such. Then we need to develop and apply effective strategies — and there are multiple strategies. We have heard about many today, but there are others.
The government alone cannot lead this. It has to be done with partnerships. Clearly, Indigenous peoples have to be partners. We have to find partners in other nations, other countries, particularly northern Arctic countries and in Europe. We have the Arctic Circle group — clearly a group we have to work with. There is also the fishers’ livelihood that Senator Ataullahjan talked about.
Would you support this committee making a recommendation in our report that the Government of Canada, in collaboration with key stakeholders, must develop a comprehensive, explicit and effective anti-disinformation strategy addressing the seal industry?
Mr. Kolga: Yes, I would absolutely support that. I would go beyond just the sealing industry and cover all other Indigenous issues. It’s not just the seal hunt that is being targeted. Again, from my limited research on this, there are other aspects of Inuit culture that are also being targeted by misinformation and disinformation. We should realize that this isn’t just external actors. There are actors inside our country engaging in this.
Ultimately, from a domestic perspective, this is polarizing. It has the potential to further polarize our own society. Again, these images that have been broadcast have the potential to incite hate toward this community.
Yes, we definitely need to take a strategic and formal approach to addressing this. I would absolutely support your proposal.
Mr. Al-Rawi: Thank you, senator. I agree with my colleague Mr. Kolga and with the suggestion that Canada needs a clear strategy to combat disinformation about the seal hunting and seal harvest issue.
I want to highlight one important thing, please, senator: Not all the campaigns that I have seen on social media and elsewhere could be framed or discussed as having bad intentions or intentionally spreading false information. A lot of it could be misinformation, which is unintentional. A lot of people might be misled; they don’t know the full facts. It requires a lot of work to know and dig into this issue, including for myself. I was almost totally ignorant about this issue before I was invited to this committee. I needed to do some research.
That’s what we are encouraging the government and other partners to do — namely, to ask people to read to expose them to this kind of information. I cannot put a number on it or quantify it, but I can say that not all of it has bad intentions or is ideologically driven. Thank you.
Senator Kutcher: I am going to respond to that. I completely agree with you. That’s why I’m suggesting a comprehensive strategy, not just one that’s simply on what is ideologically driven.
The Deputy Chair: Ms. Hodson, would you like a chance to respond to Senator Kutcher’s question?
Ms. Hodson: Thank you, yes. Senator Kutcher, I wholeheartedly agree with both my colleagues. Yes, the polarizing disinformation we are seeing in relation to Indigenous peoples spans beyond the seal hunt. Wrapping it all up might actually be an easier sell for the federal government.
Building on Dr. Al-Rawi’s recommendation, it might be hard to ask people to do their own research. Doing their own research might lead them down rabbit holes. I know that’s not what my colleague meant, but to elaborate so that there is no confusion, the more information we can provide to those key influencers and community leaders as part of this campaign, the easier it will be to counter those people who are spreading this information non-deliberately.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you so much.
Senator Cordy: Thank you so much to the three of you. This is fascinating information that you have provided to us, the way that you have clearly differentiated between disinformation and misinformation. Unfortunately, when disinformation is allowed to hang around, we get more and more misinformation. It almost gets muddled in the mix of what people are doing. If people really believe it, it is very hard to change their minds.
Our committee has heard from people within Indigenous communities. We’ve heard how they’ve lost their livelihoods, and they are in very remote areas. So what do you do?
We travelled to Newfoundland and spoke to the sealers who have been affected tremendously, and also — following through from that — to the related industries. We also spoke to the fishers in Newfoundland, and because of the overpopulation of the seals, the fishing industry is also being affected dramatically. We travelled to Newfoundland, but we’ve heard that from others as well.
Several of you have spoken about the emotional aspect of it. Certainly, because of the misinformation and disinformation that’s out there, it becomes very emotional. Once it becomes emotional, it becomes that much more challenging to change people’s minds.
We spoke about the need for quick responses. The government is not particularly noted for quick responses on anything, so I’m wondering how we will do that. Do we have something set up within DFO? Is DFO where this should be? We’re talking about sealing and the effect on the fishing industry, but should it be another department dealing with this? How do we ensure that it is done with a quick turnaround time, and who should be doing this within the government? Paul McCartney is not going to work for the 14-year-olds or 16-year-olds anymore; sorry. We all know who he was, but who are the influencers for the younger generation? Because teenagers are very much caught up in the misinformation surrounding the seal industry.
Mr. Kolga: There is not one single ministry or agency within the government that can fix this and there is no silver bullet. The genie is out of the bottle. What we need to do is to look at a long-term approach to solving the issue.
There are several ministries that are looking at and monitoring disinformation or putting funds toward combatting it, including Canadian Heritage, Global Affairs Canada and Public Safety Canada. These are all ministries that have people working on this issue. I suggest that DFO needs to talk to those ministries about a whole-of-government approach and, as clichéd as it is to say it these days, a whole-of-society approach to this that brings in Indigenous communities, media, these digital platforms and, of course, my colleagues: the researchers and academics who are looking into this problem. Bring them all to one table to talk about this and figure out that strategy, and then figure out who will be responsible for tackling it.
Unfortunately, as I said, there is no silver bullet to quickly fix this problem.
Mr. Al-Rawi: Senator, I can identify three main parties that could be very helpful in this initiative. I agree with my colleague Mr. Kolga on what he mentioned. The three parties I could see would be DFO, Indigenous communities and the news media. If they work together closely, they can actually be very effective in communicating the main facts to the Canadian public and abroad.
I will highlight that fact because it’s very important. Senator Cordy, you mentioned the impact of misinformation on the fishing industry as well as on the sealers. As we say, show me the money — show me the facts. Can scientists from DFO, for example, present it in a chart with numbers, showing the impact on fishing? These charts could then be communicated to the news media and publicized on different platforms. Unfortunately, we don’t have that. I really tried to find the necessary information in order to be fully convinced on this issue, but it is not there.
I know there is scientific consensus about these issues, but we are not actually communicating them well or effectively. That will not require a lot of money. It is just a few thousand dollars, I think. That’s how I see it. Thank you very much.
Senator Cordy: Thank you.
Senator Duncan: Thank you very much again for your presentation this morning. I would like to challenge a little bit, if I might, the use of a word, which is that this anti-seal campaign is “entrenched” in the minds of the Canadian public. The reason I say that is that I had the tremendous opportunity to join this committee just as we were participating in the study in Newfoundland. I learned a tremendous amount. I went home to the Yukon and spoke with a Grade 12 class and asked them what they knew about it. They knew nothing. I have to tell you that every community in the Yukon is connected by internet. They are very, very well-connected.
I think there is an opportunity for our young people, throughout the country, to know more about this. I’m wondering if there is any data out there that could prove that. Education is a provincial responsibility, but do we know if anybody is talking about this in the high schools across the country, at that level, with the 15-year-olds and 16-year-olds? We’ve seen tremendous advocacy on climate change by young people. What do they know about this issue? Do we know?
Mr. Kolga: I don’t know. I haven’t seen any evidence that there are high school students rallying around the seal hunt. I don’t know, and I haven’t seen any polling data. Maybe this is one place where we should start that long-term research: finding out what Canadians think about the seal hunt. It is a great point that you make. Is anyone paying attention? Were we paying attention when Paul McCartney landed on that ice floe, and have we paid attention to it since then? I don’t know. I can’t answer that question. Maybe some polling to get that data would be a good first step to understanding exactly, if it is entrenched, what Canadians think about the seal hunt.
Ms. Hodson: Senator Duncan, I think that’s a really important point about education. In history and social studies classes, we’re educating about the role of Canada and our relationship to Indigenous peoples, and I think introducing some of this evidence-based information about the seal hunt into that curriculum could really turn things around for the next generation.
It is part of that long-term strategy, but I also agree with my other colleague that, yes, it is important to take the pulse of Canadians. Who is supporting the misinformation right now? Who may be spreading it? What are the views? I think there is a lot that Canadians don’t know about this issue. Regardless of whether it is entrenched — and I take your point there — it is important to find ways to educate the Canadian public. That said, maybe it is not as big a threat as it appears to be on the surface, so doing that early research would be very key.
Senator Duncan: The Canadian government has, through public safety, launched various campaigns teaching Canadians about disinformation. Maybe this is an opportunity to say that.
In terms of who is responsible, when you talk about government departments, might I suggest that it’s first and foremost a government-to-government-to-government approach, including Canada, the provinces and Indigenous governments with this issue? If you look around the room at the Assembly of First Nations, there are a tremendous number of young people who are bright and keen to deal with issues. Let’s harness that enthusiasm and work with them.
The Deputy Chair: Would anyone like to comment on Senator Duncan’s last question?
Senator Duncan: That was the wrong choice of words, but we need to work with that energy. Canadians have learned a tremendous amount of hard truths in the last number of years. I think we should continue to work with the Indigenous people. Thank you.
The Deputy Chair: Senator Aucoin has been motivated to ask a question. Would you share your question with the witnesses, please?
[Translation]
Senator Aucoin: This is not necessarily a question, perhaps just some information. I would like to know what you, Mr. Kolga, and others think of that? In order to succeed, doesn’t the campaign have to become global or mainstream? If not, if it is just Indigenous communities, fishers and hunters turning to the media and campaigning, that will not necessarily resonate with Canadians in general.
I appreciate your comment about why we don’t eat seal meat. The Minister of Fisheries is from the Îles-de-la-Madeleine where the best restaurants serve seal meat. Sealskins are used to make boots. All kinds of things are produced from seal meat and fur. When my wife went to the Magdalen Islands, she had a pizza with seal meat on it.
Do you think that campaign or those efforts could be successful if Canada’s general population were agreeable to the idea and supported it more?
[English]
Mr. Kolga: I have one quick comment about lamb being served on pizzas. This is an excellent example. One simple way that we could start advocating for the seal hunt and to normalize the consumption of seal is for the government to start working on it. We should be working with all the embassies that we have here, from Europe and from other countries that have banned seal, to make sure that Global Affairs Canada, when it is inviting these representatives from foreign states, has seal on the menu. It should be on the menu for state dinners there. In fact, our embassies around the world — for example, in Paris and Berlin — could consider bringing seal in for their dinners. This is a simple way to do that. It doesn’t cost much money to do it, but it’s one way of getting started in that process of normalizing and popularizing the consumption of seals.
The Deputy Chair: Do either of our other witnesses have a comment on that?
Mr. Al-Rawi: Thank you very much, senator. To add to what my colleague Mr. Kolga said, maybe we can add more packaged types of food containing seal products at Canadian airports. I see mostly salmon, which is great; I don’t think that I have seen seal there at all. That could be another way to do it because millions of people travel every year. Thank you.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much. If I could impose on our witnesses, we are a little over time, but we have a senator or two who would like to ask a second question. If everyone is all right to carry on for a few minutes, Senator Petten indicated she would like to ask another question.
Senator Petten: Yes. I am thinking about prior witnesses we have heard. In particular, when we were in Newfoundland and Labrador, we listened to the sealers. They indicated that they have had all kinds of evidence of eating fish, cod and other species. What I’m hearing today, however, is that it is more anecdotal information. We’ve heard from some Indigenous groups, some of the people from the North and a couple of Inuit witnesses that it is a cultural thing. They feel that when they tried to talk about getting DFO to do the research, DFO wasn’t receptive to listening to their experiences and how they’ve been impacted.
I guess it is just one of these things, but how do we still try to get the research done to get the evidence, the factual basis, for a program to educate people on the effects? I think that’s what it comes back to. That is, they have done data in a certain way for so many years and seals are not included in it. It’s not part of that data. Part of it is getting the facts to be able to use them.
Mr. Kolga: That’s a very good question. If we are looking to have DFO start researching this specific issue, it will take a push from the political level, I imagine. This is just speculation, but if I were working in DFO as a researcher thinking about this problem, it would seem like a steep, uphill battle to try to address this problem. I think it is a normal human reaction to try to avoid that. It will take a concerted effort in order to do that, but I think it can be overcome. Again, with political will, we can probably start that process.
Senator Ataullahjan: To get back to influencers and celebrity chefs, every time an influencer mentions a product, generally, that product sells out. I kind of know; I have daughters in their thirties. They often say, “This product was promoted by so-and-so and it sold out.” Has anybody thought of gifting a seal coat to some influencers who will mention it, or sending some seal meat to celebrity chefs and challenging them to cook something using it? I think the industry has to learn to fight fire with fire in the way they work.
Mr. Kolga: I agree with you. Right now, in the current information environment about the seal hunt, I think it would be difficult to approach an influencer or a chef, who may not know anything about the seal hunt, to get them on board. You are absolutely right. Influencers are used to endorse products all the time. Look at how sports shoes sell. Michael Jordan endorses shoes; so do other sports celebrities. I’m not sure the way to go is to pay an influencer to support —
Senator Ataullahjan: Just a small gift.
Mr. Kolga: I think it takes education. That is, identifying those individuals who may be sympathetic to Indigenous issues and might have an understanding of what’s going on in the Arctic. They can sympathize with what the Inuit people are having to endure with regard to these bans and the misinformation and disinformation surrounding the seal hunt.
Finding one of those chefs who can be convinced to take that leap to bring seal onto their menu, like Jamie Oliver or a Canadian equivalent, someone like that, would be key. It takes a lot of work to connect and educate before we can get there.
Mr. Al-Rawi: I totally agree with my colleague Mr. Kolga on this. There needs to be some kind of cultural shift, because, in general, people are not used to eating seal meat. There has to be a gradual introduction of seal meat, but I would highlight the importance of focusing on the appeals. For example, to sell that product, you have to, maybe, highlight the health benefits of it. This, again, comes back to the issue of facts. Show us the facts. Show us why it is useful to have seal meat instead of lamb meat. If you can do that in a convincing way that is driven by academic or scientific consensus, I think it will be a successful effort.
Thank you.
Senator Ataullahjan: As someone who immigrated to this country, I didn’t know much about the sealing industry until we started this study. I have a daughter who I keep mentioning, who is in Iqaluit, and she tells me about the way of life, and it is so impressive. Nothing is wasted. Everything is used. There is such a good story to be told about the sealing industry, and it makes me very sad that nobody is promoting it.
It is such an honourable way of living, and the difficulty that they have — it is not easy to go on a seal hunt. I think everyone is responsible. Why isn’t the federal government promoting it more? I don’t even know what to say about DFO anymore since we started this study.
I wish somebody would be sympathetic and promote this way of life.
Mr. Kolga: I would add that I think our national media probably has a responsibility to do more reporting from the Arctic on these communities. What is happening in those communities, that story is not being told to Canadians through our national media.
Of course, that’s a funding question. Getting journalists to these locations is going to cost money, so it involves figuring out a way to get that funding and convincing media to cover those stories — and not just the seal hunt, but the entire story of how these communities live. There is a good news story there. That’s going to be key to any strategy to combat the misinformation and disinformation.
Ms. Hodson: I agree with my colleague, and I also agree with Senator Duncan, again.
This could be done in a whole-of-government, government-to-government approach so that you have combined resources to send people, documentarians, et cetera, into the community to tell those stories. A compelling story will really help convey the evidence in a way that Canadians can relate to.
The Deputy Chair: Dr. Al-Rawi, any comment you would like to add?
Mr. Al-Rawi: I think my colleagues covered all the issues. Thank you very much.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much.
Seeing no other senators’ questions, I wanted to make a comment as well following from Mr. Kolga’s comments about Ryan Reynolds. I guess he is out as an influencer for us, sadly. We are looking at the Swifties, so maybe Taylor Swift; who knows? Certainly, that group and that age group seem to be target groups for us.
It has been an incredibly interesting session. I want to thank all our witnesses for coming and taking your valuable time, and extra time. This subject is so interesting and so informative that we went a little over, and I want to thank you for volunteering the rest of your time. It has been most helpful, and your advice and recommendations are truly going to be a key part of our study report.
Thank you very much to all of you and to our senators for hanging in and being so committed to this important topic.
(The committee adjourned.)