THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON VETERANS AFFAIRS
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Wednesday, May 3, 2023
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs met with videoconference this day at 12 p.m. [ET] to examine and report on issues relating to Veterans Affairs, including services and benefits provided, commemorative activities, and the continuing implementation of the Veteran’s Well-being Act.
Senator David Richards (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, welcome to this meeting of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs. I’m David Richards, senator from New Brunswick and chair of the subcommittee. I’m joined today by my fellow subcommittee members: Senator Boisvenu, the deputy chair, from Quebec; Senator Anderson from the Northwest Territories; Senator Yussuff from Ontario; and I imagine Senator Deacon will be joining us soon.
Today, we are joined by retired Colonel Mark Hutchings, Chairman of the Hill 70 Memorial Project. Mr. Hutchings joins us to discuss the Hill 70 Memorial project in Loos-en-Gohelle, France. The project would like to give this memorial to the Government of Canada. Our meeting will be dedicated to discussing that proposal.
Thank you for your service, sir, and for meeting with us today. We’ll begin by inviting you to provide your opening remarks, which will be followed by questions from our members. Mr. Hutchings, the floor is yours.
Mark Hutchings, Chairman, Hill 70 Memorial Project: Thank you for inviting me to speak to you today. It’s a terrific opportunity. I’ll be happy to take any questions you have.
As the chair said, our aim is to have the Government of Canada assume ownership of the memorial that we have built in France, and we would like to gift it, basically, to the people of Canada.
Veterans Affairs Canada already controls 16 other monuments in France. It doesn’t really seek to have any others to look after, and when I spoke to the Deputy Minister of National Defence a year or two ago, he said that it was not their mandate to actively go after having another monument to honour Canada, however beautiful. There would have to be political direction.
So for me to have the opportunity to address you is perfect, from our perspective, and I hope I can do so effectively.
I’ll first talk about the Battle of Hill 70. It was pretty much ignored for 100 years. Nobody really knew what the Battle of Hill 70 was anymore. I can tell you there were a few people — the families of the fallen there — who knew about Hill 70, but in five years of raising $10 million to get this done, only one person said, “Yes, Mark, I know everything about it. I take my family on tours there. My uncle was evaporated there, and we never found his body.” Only one person. I have had Chiefs of the Defence Staff and historians all say, “Hill 70. What is that?” They didn’t know, although it is written on just about every war memorial in this country. There was hardly a town, village or city that didn’t lose people at Hill 70. You’ll see it there if you look. It’s there between Vimy, Beaumont-Hamel and the other big ones, but people sort of forgot what it was all about.
I must confess that I didn’t know what it was about. I was there in 2007, and an Englishman who had a stand at the Vimy Memorial for the ninetieth commemoration of Vimy said, “Have you ever been to Hill 70?” I said that I hadn’t. He asked if I would like to go and said he would take me the next day. I said that would be terrific. I had my family with me, so we all went over and had a look at Hill 70.
The story of the battle is very interesting. I’ll tell you about it in a minute, but the Englishman said his goodbye to us, gave us a really good tour — he got our attention, obviously — and then I thought to myself that it’s Hill 70, so it must be uphill. So I drove up the hill with our rented car. I stopped at the top, and I was looking around. He knocked on the window, and I was thinking he had followed me up the hill. He asked me what I was doing, and I replied that I was looking for the monument. I said, “We had 1,877 soldiers die here, so where is the monument?” And he said, “Exactly. Where is the monument?”
After my brother told me there was never going to be a monument put up there, I said that we could put up a monument there; it could be done.
Now it is done. It kind of got out of hand, and I’ll tell you how it happened. If you have a noble project, you attract noble people, and everybody we asked for help over a six- or seven‑year period all helped — every one of them. We had help coming out the ears; it was just terrific. So we had several architects giving us free advice. We had lawyers. Borden Ladner Gervais LLP, one of the largest firms in the country, gave us advice, both in common law and in Napoleonic Code. We had project managers, construction managers and translators helping us for free.
Somebody said that we needed to have a really good leader for the project. So we made a short list, and the best one was going to be Governor General David Johnston, so I went to see David Johnston. We sent him the material in advance. He was sitting there, his wife sat there, I sat here and the Deputy Minister of Veterans Affairs sat there — my friend, Walter Natynczyk, who knew him well. I started to talk, and David Johnston said, “Mark, Mark. What do you want exactly?” I said that we’d like him to be our honorary patron, and he said okay. He had read the material, and that was it; he was in. He did terrific work for us by influencing other people.
We had all the support we needed to make this thing happen, and we had it completed by the hundredth anniversary of the battle.
So why was the battle important? It was the first time the Canadian Army fought under a Canadian commander. Prior to that, there had been British generals in charge of all the corps in the British Army. The Canadian Corps was no exception; we started out with General Alderson. He was disciplined, because he was communicating directly with the Dominion Government here, and the Foreign Office said he couldn’t do that. “You’re commanding a British division. You leave that up to the High Commissioner in London” they said. The High Commissioner in London couldn’t see it either. He had to apply. We were a colony; we were a dominion.
By the end of the war, we were no longer a colony. We were a country. And that was won by the fact that 1,877 young men died at Hill 70. Hill 70 was an inflection point; it was a turning between being a British division to being a Canadian Army, and we were treated as such after that.
Prime Minister Borden was asked to fill in for Lloyd George when he couldn’t attend the Peace Conference in Paris in 1920-21. We didn’t have any embassies overseas or high commissions, and nobody had any here, either, in 1914. We didn’t declare war in 1914. Britain declared war on our behalf. The only thing that we could decide was how much we were going to contribute.
By the time 1920 came around, we had a seat at the League of Nations, we had embassies in four countries overseas, other countries had embassies here and we had a national army because this guy Currie, our general — I noticed there’s a statue of him just up the road here; you can see him from the front door. Currie, on his first order, having been the guy who planned —
I’m talking too much. I only had five minutes. Sorry.
The Chair: Continue your story, and we’ll get you to stop.
Mr. Hutchings: Currie planned the victory at Vimy, and boy did Britain need a victory. They were hurting. They were being starved by submarine warfare, and the Russians had quit and had a revolution and were out of the army. All the German armies that had been fighting on the eastern front then moved to fight on the western front, which was not good news. The French army was on the point of mutinying.
So to all of a sudden have a victory at Vimy Ridge was terrific.
The guy who planned that victory was not Sir Julian Byng, who commanded it; it was Currie. He was a subordinate major‑general commanding one of the divisions. Then he got promoted and took command of the corps. That was the first time we had a Canadian commanding the Canadian Army.
He got an order from General Horne, who was commanding the army, to take the town of Lens. Currie did his own reconnaissance, came back and said, “That is a really bad idea. That is going to be a bloodbath. We must not do that. The Germans have had three years to prepare. The last time the British tried to do it, they had 150,000 casualties. We can’t do that. We should attack the high ground just to the northwest of Lens. That way, I can dominate Lens.”
Any British general who had said “that’s not a good idea; I have a better idea and we’ll do it my way” would have been fired, but this guy had just finished winning Vimy Ridge.
It went up to the army commander, General Haig, who agreed it was worth a reconsideration, and that’s what happened. Hill 70, suddenly, is the victory that Canadian Army gets under a Canadian commander. To a large extent, it contributed to Canada becoming an independent nation.
The Chair: Thank you very much, sir. Senator Deacon from Ontario has joined us.
We will go to questions, starting with our deputy chair, Senator Boisvenu.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: First, I would like to thank you for the admirable work you have done. I understand you are a veteran, so I also want to thank you for your service to our country.
Our documents show that the monument has been built, is that correct?
Mr. Hutchings: Yes.
Senator Boisvenu: I see that you raised $10 million — was that the amount of expenses incurred for construction?
Mr. Hutchings: We also have a very wonderful and complex education program: We produced communications, films and books. There is more than just the monument. My chief of staff could tell you the exact amounts incurred. It was perhaps $4 million for the monument and park themselves.
Senator Boisvenu: Who contributed to this fund?
Mr. Hutchings: The citizens of Canada and Ireland.
Senator Boisvenu: There were Irish soldiers in the battalion?
Mr. Hutchings: There were two Irish soldiers: one Northern Irish Protestant and one Catholic from the Republic of Ireland. They were both awarded the Victoria Cross.
Senator Boisvenu: Bravo!
Mr. Hutchings: It is the only time that has ever happened in the history of Ireland, so they did contribute.
Senator Boisvenu: So, there are a lot of very powerful symbols surrounding this monument. How did the Canadian government react to the proposal for it to take charge of the monument?
Mr. Hutchings: It has not happened yet.
Senator Boisvenu: Did you get a favourable response or were you given the impression that it’s almost mission impossible?
Mr. Hutchings: To ensure we completed the project on time, we continued to take steps, and we sought funding from citizens and very generous donors, but the government — I met with the minister. He was very nice, but nothing came of it.
Senator Boisvenu: Being nice doesn’t cost much. What are you expecting from our committee regarding this monument and your initiative?
[English]
Mr. Hutchings: I never worked in Ottawa. I have been told that perhaps the next thing to do would be to write to the minister again now that I have had the opportunity to address this committee and give him a chance, again, to act upon it.
The cost to the people of Canada would be nothing; the benefits would be huge. We involved everybody in the creation of this monument.
There are Indigenous soldiers who fought there, as there were in all of our battles. One of them, Mike Mountain Horse, when he got home in 1919, did a picture of the battle and what he did on a hide. He was a Cree from southern Alberta. We’ve got his story in all of our publications.
Similarly, the only Victoria Cross ever won by a Ukrainian was won by a Ukrainian Canadian. He had been a member of the czar’s army, but he won his Victoria Cross at Hill 70. The Canadian-Ukrainian community gave over $1.5 million to pay for one of the principal walkways and to have Filip Konowal’s, name on the information panels, in the books we produced and in the education program we produced.
Similarly, the Chinese community was very generous. They gave over $2 million for a walkway in honour of a Canadian fellow whose parents were ethnic Chinese. He was a Canadian. He joined the army in Kamloops, British Columbia, when it was very difficult for the Chinese to do anything in British Columbia. They were being discriminated against. He died at Hill 70.
I was delighted that Frederick Lee — “Lee” could be an English name, but “Lee” is Chinese, in this case. He was a valedictorian at his high school or was on the dean’s list. He joined the army. He was highly thought of in his community. His father was a prominent businessman, who was also highly thought of.
His regiment forgot he was even at Hill 70, forgot who he was. His name is on the Kamloops war memorial. They forgot Lee. They didn’t know anything about it, actually. The fact is that he was a private, he never won any medals, he died there. They have never found his body. He wasn’t an officer. He wasn’t a general. And we’ve named one of the major walkways after this guy who helped create Canada, frankly. The Chinese Canadians are very proud of this.
Canada’s relationship right now with China is kind of fraught with difficulties, but this puts Chinese Canadians, Ukrainian Canadians and Aboriginal Canadians firmly in the spotlight of Canadian history 100 years ago. It’s terrific. It’s a nation‑building story. I would have thought that the government could benefit in many ways from accepting ownership.
Senator Yussuff: I could call you Mark, if you don’t mind.
First, thank you for your passion. I could hear it loud and clear about the work you have done. Building a monument of this magnitude is no small task. I can imagine the difficulties and the challenges you faced. You seem to have overcome all of that.
This was done, essentially, as a private project with people volunteering and doing all the necessary work, raising the funds and what have you, the construction, the design, the whole nine yards. Now you get to this point where you want the Canadian government to take responsibility for the monument, essentially.
There are two aspects to that. One is that they didn’t think of this. It was just done by private citizens, you and a whole bunch of good people, to tell a story about the evolution of our history as a country. There can never be enough said about that history. It’s still buried in many different parts of our psyche, and those who are able to tell it can certainly reveal much about the character of the nation as it continues to shape itself.
Now you’re asking the Government of Canada to take responsibility. I can understand to some degree why that is, because maintaining a monument is a big task, promoting it is a big task, and more importantly, the monument itself would not stay in this pristine condition if somebody doesn’t perform the upkeep.
There is going to be a cost because the monument will have to be maintained if we expect it to have lasting impact and so that people are able to visit. That’s the reality. The government will have to do some costing as to what that is.
This is a Canadian story you’re trying to tell and, more importantly, we can all benefit from it. I want to commend you for the research about the people who quite often don’t get recognized in the history of this country: Aboriginal people, Ukrainian Canadians and, for that matter, Chinese Canadians who fought and died there.
I read the documentation you provided, and I’m very impressed with the level you went to. Again, however, from a political level — because that’s our committee, and my colleague did ask you this question — what is your perception of the reluctance of the government to do this? You obviously have some perception of it. If we’re going to wade into this, we obviously have to be aware of what that is so that as a committee, we know what our recommendation might be.
Mr. Hutchings: I’d have to guess to answer that, so I can’t really tell you. I can only say they must have had other priorities that were greater. However, I think that at the moment, current events are kind of compelling them to see that this might be quite a good idea. It would show respect for veterans and Veterans Affairs. Canadians’ relationship with veterans has always been very long and complex. At the moment, I think anything the government could do to show its respect for veterans might be well received by veterans themselves. It might be a good way to build a bridge there — the same with the other elements of Canadian society, which are all involved in this.
The fact that a foreign government actually gave money might be an inducement, as well as the fact that there is a precedent in that there are 16 monument sites in Europe — including Gallipoli — that are managed by Veterans Affairs.
There is an error in my briefing note. I didn’t realize that Parks Canada doesn’t do that. International operations are done by Veterans Affairs. So please eliminate “Parks Canada” out of that — I’m sorry.
So Veterans Affairs does do this, but they would have to have an impetus from a group like yours to convince them that it’s a good idea.
You mentioned the costs, sir. The cost right now is between $30,000 and $50,000 a year to do the maintenance, which we’re paying for. We have an endowment that is established to do that. It would have to be in somebody’s budget, but it’s already financed, if you know what I mean. We’re paying for it. We have a million dollars that is invested to pay for this in perpetuity for 100 years. So yes, there would be an annual cost. We know that, and we know how much it is because we’ve been doing it now for three years. Some years, it’s almost nothing, and some years there’s more because there’s vandalism, and you have to deal with that.
From a cost benefit, it would be almost all completely positive for the government.
Senator Yussuff: Recognizing all of that, the last point I want to make is that this monument was, for the most part, done privately. Would consideration be given to transfer the ownership and rights of the monument? If the Canadian government was to take over, would they become not only the custodian of it but also the recipient of your and your colleagues’ hard work in constructing and building the monument? Is that something that has been considered, or do you want the context of the title remaining exactly as it is?
Mr. Hutchings: The monument was constructed with quite a few things in mind. A lot of planning went into this in advance. We had a terrific team. First of all, it’s meant to be just about bombproof. Nothing is easily vandalized or stolen. There are no precious metals involved in it — like bronze tablets. There are no bronze tablets, because bronze gets stolen and melted down. As much as we could, we made stuff out of stone — stone tablets and polished granite because it’s very durable. Hardly anything can be stolen or broken, so from that perspective, maintenance is low. It was designed like that. Even the prairie grasses that are planted there have taken a few years to develop but are in good shape now. They’re all native species, and they’re pretty hardy. They resist weeds, and there’s the most lovely crop of poppies in the spring. It’s quite beautiful. There’s not a lot of maintenance, and it’s designed that way.
The next thing is that we do have a contract in place with a commercial agency over there that does the landscaping and groundskeeping for us. We have a terrific relationship with the city of Loos-en-Gohelle. Their director of technical services actually supervises that project for us. So we’re blessed, in that we have eyes on the ground on the spot all the time with a professional company who is doing the work, and we pay. We do get reports, obviously.
If the government chose, it wouldn’t have to change anything. It just works. So far so good.
Now there was one other issue —
Senator Yussuff: I’m talking about the fact that right now, this monument is not the Government of Canada’s monument. It belongs to the group that you set up. So how would that be endowed to the Government of Canada?
Mr. Hutchings: It would be really easy. At the request of the city, I have a signed land-use agreement witnessed by our embassy staff. I was quite happy with that, so this is what we’re doing, this is what you’re doing and we’re okay.
We’re in the process, at the request of the French, the city of Loos-en-Gohelle said that we need to have a 100-year lease, and we need to have it notarized. I said, “Not on our account, you don’t,” and they said, “Oh no, we really do.” So I agreed. So we had our lawyers create it, and then it has been amended. I think the ball is over in their court at the moment for the final, but in there it is envisaged that it be transferred at some point to the Government of Canada. That was written in.
How this works is that we have a very close relationship with the Commonwealth War Graves Commission because they have the gravesite, which was opened in July 1917 by Canadians, right beside our site. They’re expanding the last 100 yards, which means they will be butting up against our memorial park. Tomorrow, our ambassador, Stéphane Dion, a representative of the minister and employees of Veterans Affairs Canada, or VAC, are going to be there for the laying of the first stone in the new gateway between our site and the cemetery. I bet you that everybody who goes to that cemetery is now going to use our parking lot, which we were compelled to build — I wasn’t really interested in a parking lot, but we had to put one in — and they’ll go to the war graves cemetery through our site. So everybody will see that obelisk, which really only has one word on it: Canada. It’s terrific.
Everything we did over there is bilingual and meets Canadian government standards. Every information panel is bilingual. I mean, the host country is France as well, but the fact is that if you’re a Canadian from Chicoutimi and you end up there, you can read everything. You can go onto our website or look at the app, and it’s all in French and English. Sometimes it’s in Mandarin and sometimes Ukrainian.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you for being here. It is something that I admit I did not know that much about, but we have had an opportunity to really dig into Hill 70 for today’s meeting. Again, I thank you for your service and your passion. Your curriculum vitae, resumé and experience show such a tremendous dedication to a very important part of our country’s work. Thank you very much for that.
I also think it’s quite interesting that this memorial site in France represents or potentially represents the last national monument commemorating the First World War that will be constructed in Europe. So thank you for that.
I’m listening to my colleagues, and I think Senator Yussuff asked this question. You said that there’s money in the bank, so to speak, and we have a budget. You said you have funds, but if the Government of Canada does not take over the maintenance and care, would you have to continue to carry on fundraising to support the maintenance and upkeep of this monument if the Government of Canada did not offer their support in the near future?
Mr. Hutchings: No, we have enough funds — God willing there’s not another stock market meltdown — to make this work. But I have a dozen people who are really talented all bringing a huge amount of talent in their own fields to this, and the average age is over 60. We’re not going to live forever.
Senator M. Deacon: There’s a sustainability issue here that we are all hearing and understanding around this. You also talked about something that I wanted to dig deeper into.
I know the perception of our times with China, but I was curious about Frederick Lee when reading that story and I wanted to understand a bit more. You indicated Chinese Canadians were proud to make a contribution and how important that is. How do you think this multicultural aspect is contributing to Hill 70? How does that compare to other memorials operated by the Government of Canada or by Canadian Heritage?
Mr. Hutchings: I can’t really speak to other memorials. You would have to can ask Veterans Affairs about that.
How does it contribute? We know that this story has been carried in the two main Chinese dailies, Sing Tao and Ming Pao, more than once. We also had the Chinese lettering carved in the stone. There was some concern about the difference between how it was going to be done, but it is there, in stone, for visitors from anywhere in the world to read in either Mandarin or Cantonese as they go up through the trench. Of course, it’s also there electronically. If they look at the app, they can select and get Mandarin. It’s a done deal.
The leaders of their community invite us to more things than we can attend because they see us as part of the bridge building and of validating their position in Canada.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you.
The Chair: Do you know how many Indigenous people were involved in this campaign? Do you have a broad figure or would you know?
Mr. Hutchings: No. Our education director knows, but I know that they are represented out of proportion to their part of the population.
The Chair: They usually are when it comes to our battles, yes.
Mr. Hutchings: Tunnels that go underneath this battlefield were dug prior to the battle with the intention of — that is, if you were going to cross what was called no man’s land, an area swept by machine gun or artillery fire and covered in barbed wire — having an exit just inside the enemy lines. This was a terrific way to avoid all the casualties you would have otherwise gotten in no man’s land.
The tunnels are still there. The shovels and the tools are up against the walls, the way they were left in 1917. The stuff is still there. The wooden hafts are rotted and gone, and a lot of the stuff is rusted, but it’s untouched. When the soldiers were waiting, these tunnels were packed with men with all their equipment. They were absolutely quiet because both sides would listen for evidence of tunnelling. There were wars between the tunnels and they would set off explosions to try to collapse the tunnels.
They were all down there. Just before the whistle went — often, they were waiting for two hours — they would take out their little pencils, which only worked if they wet them, and write on the walls. These walls are filled with white chalk, as white as that, pure chalk. They would take out their pencils and write their mother’s name or draw a picture of their girlfriend. A lot of the guys would draw their hat badges which they could take off and look at. A guy named Elijah Dickson was an Ojibwe. He referred to himself as “the Indian” on this thing. He did not survive, unfortunately. A lot of those guys are buried in that cemetery. We took his drawing and we put it in stone, in granite, up on the pathway. Elijah Dickson is absolutely a full‑blooded Native and he is commemorated forever now, in a place where people can see his writings, his last words, effectively.
The Chair: Was this a diversion for the Third Battle of Ypres or was it a full assault?
Mr. Hutchings: Both. As far as the strategic game, the British said, “We are going to win the Third Battle of Ypres” — which was not going to happen just like that — “but we need a diversion.” To keep the Germans tied down in the south, the Canadians will conduct an operation at Lens. It turned out not to be at Lens but at Hill 70. It was successful, but the Third Battle of Ypres was not. The Third Battle of Ypres petered out after three months of horrific casualties. You know who won that the Third Battle of Ypres? The Canadians. The first Canadian corps was moved up in complete secrecy. They took their badges off their hats and their shirts, and they went up to Ypres. That battle was called Passchendaele. We won that.
The Chair: Was the first time the Germans used gas the second Ypres or the third?
Mr. Hutchings: Sorry; I don’t know.
The Chair: That’s all. I was just wondering.
Senator Anderson: Thank you for your testimony. I have an article dated April 6, 2023, that says last spring, approximately 120 soldiers were discovered in Loos-en-Gohelle, France, while construction crews were digging a foundation for a new hospital.
Currently, there are students across the Upper Canada District School Board who are working to identify fallen Canadian soldiers from the First World War Battle of Hill 70. It includes 14 schools.
Mr. Hutchings: It’s 21 now.
Senator Anderson: Okay. There are 19 classes and over 400 students. Also, the Canadian Armed Forces, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, Veterans Affairs Canada, the Department of Canadian Heritage, The Gregg Centre at the University of New Brunswick, the Spencerville Legion, the Toledo Legion and the Glengarry County Archives are active partners in this project to identify these soldiers.
Given the finding of these graves, the renewed interest and the engagement by schools and government organizations, is there a renewed national interest in Hill 70? Could this help to reinforce the importance of Hill 70 for Canada and the engagement of the Government of Canada in assuming the responsibility for this site and ensuring perpetuity and education of this event?
Mr. Hutchings: Terrific. Yes, all of the above. I’d like to see that article. Whoever wrote that has captured a lot of information. That’s very good.
There were so many people killed in these battles. You can’t build a house. You want to build a hospital? They found over 100 bodies. They’ve been buried there for 100 years. There is a forensic pathologist who works at DND, Sarah Lockyer, and she is a talented lady. Do you know her?
Senator Anderson: She’s mentioned in the article.
Mr. Hutchings: She is terrific. She briefed 450 kids. She said she could do this any time. They were very interested. Tomorrow is the laying of the new stone and I’m hoping Sarah will be there. I spoke to the education director yesterday and said, “Please get a video of this.” The new stone is going right on our site. It’s a beautiful site. If you look this way, you see the obelisk, the symbol of victory at Hill 70. It is absolutely gorgeous.
What will the kids get out of this? Show this to these kids. This is current events. This is not history. This is not dead history that is boring. They are using science, technology and modern techniques to identify soldiers from their own communities. There are 450 kids involved this term; next term it will be 900. They go down to their local cenotaph and see Joe Shnook’s name is on the cenotaph, and they will research everything about him: the house he was born in; where his parents were from; what happened to him; whether there are grandkids still alive. Sarah Lockyer is showing them how to do the analysis using DNA of the remains. This is living science. These are wonderful educational opportunities. These kids will take that out, and the teachers are enthusiastic.
Thank you for bringing it up. We’re very proud of that program. It is a first in the world as far as we know.
Chris Hadfield has spoken to all the students. They write him notes about how they are doing because he asked them to, and he writes back.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator Yussuff: Like anything else in life, there is a time frame to all of this. It is not inevitable. We have to figure this out in terms of the decision that the government and minister need to make. What is your time frame?
Mr. Hutchings: Within two years would be very desirable from my perspective. We are replacing directors now because the main part of the work is done. Some of it now is just keeping things going. The education process will go in perpetuity, because there is so much involvement from so many different parties who recognize the importance for the kids and for the country to have this kind of education occur.
The education program will keep going. As for the adoption by the Government of Canada, I would say the sooner the better. It is basically ready to be handed over.
You asked a previous question that I didn’t fully answer. There is a way this happens in France. When it is recognized as a desirable thing by the two governments, France and Canada, the minister of veterans over there tells the defence department in France to buy the land, which is then reserved in perpetuity for the Government of Canada. While Canada does not really own a lot of those pieces of land, they effectively do because I think the ownership is actually to the federal minister of defence in France on behalf of our government.
That mechanism is well understood, it exists and it can happen as long as there is political will.
Senator Yussuff: Like many parts of the history of this country, the more you learn about how we became a nation is intriguing, because we take it for granted. We live in modern times, we are a country now and there is no denying that.
But what Hill 70 revealed, to a large extent, is that back then, as a colony, we didn’t know who our masters were going to be, except the men and women who sacrificed and the families. The story about how many Canadians enlisted during the First World War is monumental, and their lives have been touched by it. Many never came back. It is another way to tell their story.
But you remind us that we didn’t arrive at this juncture in our history without the sacrifices of these individuals and their families. Thank you for what you did. It was revealing to me to learn the history and understand it, but, more importantly, to make it so that we could contribute in our own way in the Senate as to how this project might be a living, lasting history for us to continue to develop and learn from. So thank you very much for all you’ve done on behalf of the nation.
Mr. Hutchings: Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Boisvenu: Did I understand correctly that this bill would oblige the Government of Canada to purchase the land in France?
Mr. Hutchings: No. The French government will purchase it. If all goes well, it’s the French department of national defence that will purchase it, and the land will be in Canada’s name.
Senator Boisvenu: Canada would not be required to make any payment?
Mr. Hutchings: No. Not a cent, I believe.
Senator Boisvenu: I am trying to understand what the benefits would be. There would be no payment by the Government of Canada whatsoever to build the site, nor to maintain it. So, one of the benefits would be declaring this monument a part of Canadian heritage. Is that the first benefit?
Mr. Hutchings: Yes. The French government initially did not understand that it was Canadian citizens who had done this. They were under the impression that it was our government. We told them no, not exactly. They thought it was our Governor General — we said yes, he’s the leader, but this wasn’t his decision either.
Senator Boisvenu: What are the other advantages for Canada and France of recognizing Hill 70 as a national monument?
Mr. Hutchings: There are many advantages. We have been their ally for centuries, we contributed to liberating them from their enemy, and we helped to preserve their democracy. They are well aware of that — more aware than we are.
[English]
They very much appreciate what Canada did.
[Translation]
They are prepared to help us.
[English]
Senator Boisvenu: But what is the real advantage for the Government of Canada to declare that monument as part of the national heritage?
Mr. Hutchings: It would be the same advantage as we get from the monument at Vimy.
Senator Boisvenu: And that is?
Mr. Hutchings: Well, 750,000 tourists a year go there. You find people standing there crying, actually. The emotional attachment to what they see is overwhelming. They can hardly go to that cemetery without being moved. I suggest, if you have a chance to go there, you will see people touring in silence. They will never forget their visit there.
Senator Boisvenu: I was in Vimy once, and it is a great monument. We have all of the story of World War I there.
[Translation]
Then the benefit is that it would commemorate Canadian history.
Mr. Hutchings: Yes, as well as the collaboration between the two countries.
[English]
Senator Serge Joyal wrote a good book — and Hill 70 is in it — talking about the contribution that we made to France. There are probably two or three books published every year about that. They sell very well.
One of our books, which was peer reviewed, is a triple bestseller on Amazon. It is still selling well. We produced a total of five books. It is of great interest.
The French embassy here in town commemorates these events every year and invites anybody they think might be interested in it. The French government is interested in keeping it going because I think that the benefit is a huge amount of tourism every year. That’s a very concrete payoff. Certainly, the town of Loos-en-Gohelle delighted to have tour buses of people arriving, going to their restaurants, staying at the hotel.
Senator Boisvenu: It is very near to Vimy, I think.
Mr. Hutchings: Eight miles.
Senator Boisvenu: Thank you very much.
The Chair: Are there any other questions or comments for the colonel before we adjourn this meeting?
Mark Hutchings, I really want to thank you. I thank you for your service, and I thank you very much for bringing this issue about Hill 70 to us. All I can say is that I hope it gets done and it gets done quickly, and I hope we can aid you in any way that is possible. Thank you very much.
(The committee adjourned.)