THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON VETERANS AFFAIRS
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Tuesday, October 29, 2024
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs met with videoconference this day at 9:03 a.m. [ET], in camera, to examine and report on issues relating to Veterans Affairs, including services and benefits provided, commemorative activities, and the continuing implementation of the Veterans Well-being Act; and consideration of a draft agenda (future business).
Senator Rebecca Patterson (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Good morning. Welcome to the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs meeting to continue our discussion on veterans’ homelessness and looking at solutions.
Before I begin, I would like to ask all senators and other in‑person participants to consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents. Thank you for your cooperation.
I’m Senator Rebecca Patterson from Ontario and the chair of this subcommittee. I’m joined today by my fellow subcommittee members, whom I will ask to introduce themselves.
Senator Richards: Senator David Richards from New Brunswick.
Senator Anderson: Senator Margaret Dawn Anderson from Yellowknife, Northwest Territories.
Senator M. Deacon: Senator Marty Deacon, Ontario.
Senator McNair: Senator John McNair, New Brunswick.
Senator Yussuff: Senator Hassan Yussuff, Ontario.
The Chair: Before welcoming today’s witnesses, I would like to provide a content warning for this meeting. Today our subcommittee is studying veterans’ homelessness. Sensitive subjects such as trauma related to military service, homelessness and gender-based violence may be discussed. This maybe triggering to some people in the room with us as well as those watching and listening to this broadcast.
Mental health support for all Canadians is available by phone and text at 9-8-8. If you are a veteran, you can call 1-800-268-7708 to speak to a mental health professional right now.
Senators and parliamentary employees are also reminded that the Senate’s employee and family assistance program is available to them and offers short-term counselling for both personal and work-related concerns as well as crisis counselling.
Now I would like to welcome to the subcommittee by video conference from the City of Barrie, Alex Nuttall, Mayor, a former member of Parliament; and from Saint John Human Development Council, Greg Bishop, Senior Director.
We thank you both for joining us today. We are going to begin by inviting you to provide your opening remarks to be followed by questions from our members. We normally give you five minutes for your opening comments. We have Ericka, our clerk, beside me. She will give you a warning as we’re getting to your time.
For my fellow senators and committee members, we will start with a four-minute question round, and so I would please ask that your questions be concise.
To start with opening comments, I would like to welcome Mr. Alex Nuttall from Barrie.
Alex Nuttall, Mayor, City of Barrie: Thank you, chair and members of the Senate, fellow contributors and all who are with us for this committee today.
While I have served in the capacity as a member of Parliament, this is my first opportunity to participate in Senate proceedings. I want to thank you for the opportunity to join you this morning to discuss the dire situation that we are seeing being experienced by some veterans in communities across Canada.
We in Canada, as a federation, owe so much to those who served in the Canadian Armed Forces. Unfortunately, too many are falling through the cracks, too many are being left alone, too many are experiencing homelessness and very difficult health issues.
These are folks who may have served around the globe in Afghanistan, in peacekeeping roles in Canada’s Arctic or perhaps in supportive roles right here on Canadian soil supporting others throughout the country and around the world. They have given so much to us and yet there are far too many who are unable to find or maintain simple things like a roof over one’s head or steady employment.
We owe it to our veterans to do better.
Following the pandemic, we know that volunteerism and donations have severely reduced to organizations in many communities, and veterans’ organizations are not immune to this. Organizations like The Royal Canadian Legion, True Patriot Love, VETS Canada and others are key in identifying, locating and supporting veterans who are homeless.
We also know that there needs to be a ton of work done to ensure that active members are easily transitioned to Veterans Affairs to help support the process of identification and support of those needing housing and continued mental health supports.
The solution is not a simple one, unfortunately. It requires not only all-party support, Senate support and resolve from public servants, but lower-tier municipalities need to be part of the solution as we are on the ground and closest to the streets where some of our veterans are living homeless.
I was discouraged when a private member’s bill sponsored by our local member of Parliament, John Brassard, was defeated at second reading last session on this exact subject. However, I think I can speak on behalf of my fellow mayors across the country when I say we want to be part of the solution in helping individuals who have offered all they have and all they are to this country. We want to help them find stability and a home.
This is why in Barrie we are actively looking to find appropriate land for the creation of long-term, transitional housing for veterans who are seeking stability and housing. Beyond the physical location, we’re excited about the potential partnerships with veterans’ associations, churches, the County of Simcoe and incredible partnership that exists between the City of Barrie and Base Borden just outside of the city border.
The City of Barrie was fortunate enough to receive funding from the federal government for the Housing Accelerator Fund. These funds, along with privately and publicly owned lands, social services and places of worship and potential funding opportunities from the federal and provincial governments, will help us over the coming years develop real pathways in our community to support, represent, help heal and stabilize veterans who are suffering and vulnerable in our communities.
I don’t want to take too much time up front. I certainly look forward to any questions or conversation that happens after this, but I do want to thank you again for this opportunity to come and address the subcommittee today and to be part of the conversation looking for a solution to help those who are most vulnerable, who have served our country. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Mayor Nuttall. I’m going to go to Mr. Bishop, please. Over to you.
Greg Bishop, Senior Director, Saint John Human Development Council: Good morning, everyone. Thank you, Madam Chair and participating senators of the subcommittee for inviting me to speak to you today.
I’m joining you from Saint John, New Brunswick, and I want to acknowledge that we are on the unceded and unsurrendered traditional lands of the Mi’kmaq, Peskotomuhkati and Wolastoqiyik people. I also want to acknowledge and thank anyone who is participating at this committee level or listening today who has served to protect our freedom and keep our Canadians safe.
I’ll speak a little bit about our organization. The Human Development Council is a social planning and research office that was established in 1979 with a mandate to identify and address social issues through information, data, coordination and networking. We do not provide direct service, but we support many organizations working in the social file to complete their work.
When I first started here 12 years ago, it was to take on the responsibility of administering the federal government’s homelessness strategy, which was called the Homelessness Partnering Strategy at that time and has now been updated and rebranded as Reaching Home.
Five years ago, Reaching Home took on the responsibility and requirements of community entities like us to implement coordinated access. Coordinated access in the simplest of terms is a collective impact effort at the community level and with integration of orders of government where access points to our homelessness-serving system are clearly identified. Common assessment tools assist organizations across the board in speaking the same language and understanding the depth of needs of clients. Data-sharing agreements allows us to have one list of people and understand who is out there by name as opposed to several lists, and also having processes relating to matching and referral allow us to support people accessing the best supports and services for their needs.
About three years ago, we were awarded funding through Veterans Affairs Canada, or VAC, to implement a veteran connection to home program that we lined up with our coordinated access programs in Moncton, Fredericton and Saint John. Jason Green, a former RCMP officer, assisted us in putting that program together, and we are thankful that we’ve been able to maintain that program through a new Reaching Home stream and has been called the veterans community connect program.
This program allows for the identification of veterans experiencing homelessness at a much easier rate because of the coordinated access system that’s in place. When we have everyone around the table familiar with what programs are available, we have better chances of supporting people and connecting to the right program.
I just want to speak to another aspect of this work, and that is the very visible increase in homelessness throughout the province, both in rural jurisdictions and our urban centres. When we completed a Point-in-Time Count in 2023 and compared it to our 2021 data, we’ve seen overall a 110% increase in the number of people experiencing homelessness, a 72% increase in those experiencing homelessness who were within our shelters system and a whopping 177% increase in those experiencing unsheltered homelessness.
Interestingly, in both the 2021 and 2023 counts, the number of veterans experiencing homelessness remained the same at 7%, but obviously it was 7% of a larger number. That increase has been in line with other increases in other cohorts of the population.
I have other statistics to share, but I will leave that to question and answers. I just wanted to give you a brief overview of what our work has looked like so far, and thank you again for the focused attention on veterans experiencing homelessness across this country. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much. This is a great introduction. Now we are ready for our questions.
Senator Richards: Thank you for being here, witnesses, and for your service in this regard. It’s exceptional that people are doing this because the government doesn’t seem to be doing as much as they could.
Why can’t this support be a national priority with a national oversight body to help alleviate this crisis among veterans? Is it because of the provincial jurisdiction and things like health care and other portfolios? It seems to be left to the volunteer groups like yourself, and that puts an awful burden on you and on the veterans themselves. I’m wondering if either of you can give me some idea about why this might be the case.
Mr. Bishop: Thank you, senator. Unfortunately, homelessness — as I’m sure you’ve grown to understand — is a complicated matter. In our jurisdictions, when we’re doing homeless reduction efforts and advocacy, we know we have three orders of government that have involvement, and within our provincial government, we have a multitude of departments that would also be seen as either part of the solution or part of the challenge. Since a number of people who are outside right now have a range of needs, we see them needing to go to many different places to get those needs addressed, and service navigation is a complicated effort. For our community level, staff and advocates supporting people in attaining resources or services can be a challenge and time consuming.
At the same time, having access to funding and resources to allow the community to do what needs to be done right away and deal with the paperwork afterwards allows us to respond more quickly and more effectively. For example, for our community connect program, this would be under eligible expenses, arrears, first or last month’s rent or damage deposits and rent subsidies are allowable.
Preferably, we would be able to connect to provincial programming to allow for those resources to be used in a more urgent matter, and that would be the idea. But having navigators and having a list of eligible expenses that allows an organization to move quickly is something that we’re seeing a benefit to and direct outcomes on.
Mr. Nuttall: There are many areas that you can see from the federal perspective in which the provinces would be in control of the solution. The specific matter that you’re speaking to today in terms of homelessness and those who have served in the Canadian Armed Forces is a different matter, in the sense that it is a federal jurisdiction. Veterans Affairs has a cabinet seat and a funding set, and, unfortunately, we haven’t seen the direct funding on the ground to help individuals.
When I look at Base Borden and the number of individuals who serve our country there, and then they either move on to another base or they retire. If they retire in this community, we need to see more of an impact from Veterans Affairs in the most severe circumstances where individuals are. Perhaps it is just homelessness. Perhaps it’s just mental health supports. Perhaps it’s both. In the worst cases, it’s addictions.
I would say that we’re trying to do our best on the ground here in the City of Barrie, and I know lots of organizations are doing the same across the country, but the coordinated effort, as far as I’ve been able to see, is just not there.
Senator Richards: Thank you very much for that.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you both for joining us today and for the work that you’re continuing to do. It’s so very important.
My first question is about the community of Barrie, so it is to the mayor. I’m thinking about what you talked about. It sounded like, right now, priority one is transitional housing, getting the land, working with people across organizations and ministries to make that happen. You also highlighted Base Borden when you were speaking. Of course, Base Borden feels like a mini town. As you drive through that, it feels like it’s a little town or a setting just outside of Barrie.
Are you looking at land or relationships that bring in Base Borden right at the beginning? Are they advising you? That, to me, is the internal question on how that land acquisition is going.
On the external piece, are you able to utilize, based on your background experience, the FCM as an organization that is between cities and the country to help move this along?
Mr. Nuttall: Thank you so much, senator, for the question. I think there is a multitude of questions, so I’m going to try to address them one by one.
First, on Base Borden, we have some incredible honorary colonels that exist between the City of Barrie and Base Borden for each of the armed services, and they have certainly been helping to start the conversation both on active members’ housing as well as those who are no longer active members. That conversation is ongoing.
With regard to the question of working with the federal and provincial governments, the sad part is that it’s often easier to work with the not-for-profits than it is to work inside the boxes of government. I don’t say that in a judgmental way. It’s just that when you are trying to move with speed, it is easier to work with not-for-profits.
I will give you an example. There is a church in the City of Barrie that has taken a piece of their land. They’re carving that off specifically for transitional housing. Our first step would be to get 6 or 7 of those 31 units set aside specifically for veterans experiencing homelessness and then build out from there.
The City of Barrie owns land. Base Borden has land. The reality is that it’s much easier for us to use our own resources here in the City of Barrie and work with the not-for-profits than it is to go through any of the structures that exist on the federal and provincial level.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you. I appreciate that.
Mr. Bishop, my question for you is a little different. You used the term “coordinated access” a couple of times. Some might say how critical that is and something you should be proud of. When you were referring to that this morning, I was trying to get a better sense of two things. Is the coordinated access primarily at the Saint John community level, or are you seeing some better coordinated access beyond your provincial setting that might be provincial or national? That’s my first question.
Second, you gave us a whole lot of data that still has me numb. It’s quite concerning. You may have had more data. I would like to hear what you can share about women veterans, where they are and the identification. Are they coming forward based on improved coordination? If you could respond to those two questions, that would be great.
Mr. Bishop: Thank you, senator. To the first question on coordinated access, in the New Brunswick context, we have coordinated access systems set up in Moncton, Fredericton and Saint John, and our counterpart in Bathurst also has a coordinated access system there.
As part of the federal government’s Reaching Home requirements, community entities like ours are required to set up coordinated access.
Now, I can only assume each city would look different based on its population and size. I might be a bit biased but I tend to feel that small- to mid-sized communities are better positioned to implement coordinated access that runs across all organizations in the homeless-serving system. I’ve often wondered what coordinated access looks like in Toronto or Vancouver. In Saint John, we might have 12 organizations working in homeless reduction efforts. Everybody knows each other. It’s a little bit easier to get them all around the same table.
We’re only responsible, because Reaching Home is a funding source, to have those organizations receiving federal funds from the homelessness strategy — Reaching Home — to be required to work in this way. But we’re thankful that in working with the province and other organizations every organization in our community working to solve the problem is part of that system. They’ve signed on to data-sharing agreements and that allows for a better understanding of the services out there and what services are missing.
I’ll just pause there before touching on the second question. You might have a follow-up.
The Chair: Can we do that in the second round? We will come back to that one.
Senator Yussuff: Thank you, witnesses, for being here and presenting for us. Of course, you each bring a different reality to the challenge of homelessness and trying to provide shelter for veterans.
I’ll start with the mayor in regard to Barrie and the challenges you face. Obviously, for a former politician at the federal level, now a mayor, it’s quite interesting to hear you say that you don’t want to deal with the challenges of the bureaucracy in trying to secure funding. But funding is a critical part of building out homes for homeless people. In the context of what’s going on in your community and, specifically, on veterans, is there something that you think we could do that would allow you, your city and the broad part of the community working together to ensure that you could have access to funds that might help you with the projects that you are envisioning to build in your city to help veterans who are dealing with homelessness within your city?
Maybe my second question is for both. Mr. Bishop, your data suggests that only about 7% of veterans are experiencing homelessness in your city. I know that may not be a precise figure, but given that reality, is there a specific program in your city that you are able to access to help deal with the veterans’ homelessness within the Saint John area?
Mr. Nuttall: Thank you so much, senator, for the question. In terms of access to the funding and how it can help locally here, first of all, I want to say that while there are some critiques on the subject of the federal government, we did receive Housing Accelerator Funding which is going to be instrumental in providing housing in the City of Barrie going forward. Between the federal and provincial governments, the total amount is $33.5 million over a four-year period, and that number is probably going to grow with additional funding coming from the province to supplement the $26.4 million that the province has put in over those four years.
So there are avenues to get funding, and there are avenues to help. The difficulty is going on a project-by-project basis. When the City of Barrie’s homelessness has grown from somewhere in the neighbourhood of 300 individuals to somewhere around 600 individuals in a three-year period, we can’t go through these long, drawn-out processes in order to be able to use that funding to address the needs on the ground. We need to use things like the Housing Accelerator Fund that can just pump dollars right in.
The second issue for the City of Barrie, specifically, is that we are not actually in charge of social services. We’re a single-tier municipality when it comes to everything except social services. When the City of Barrie was created and our boundaries were adjusted, the County of Simcoe was actually given the provision of the management of that system. We’re not just dealing with the feds and the province; we also have the County of Simcoe above us. So we have four entities trying to deal with one problem, and I think that’s some of the frustration you hear coming out on the subject.
Because I want to leave time, the final piece is that when we are working as a city toward getting housing in place, it’s really important that we do identify — and I would hope all cities are doing this — specific spots laid out for veterans, because, in many cases, it is a different type of PTSD, trauma or issue that’s being experienced. I really think it’s a way we can give back and take care of those who have served and given so much — in some cases, too much — to their country.
Senator McNair: My question is also for the Mayor of Barrie. I appreciate both witnesses being here to provide testimony before this committee.
You talked about the fact that you’re the boots on the ground and are the ones dealing with the homelessness issue. You cited statistics that show homelessness has doubled in a three-year period, so it’s not getting better; it’s getting worse, as we know. We heard from a witness last week who talked about the City of Ottawa, specifically. One of the things he indicated they were seeing some success from was having a single point of contact within the city for homeless veterans. Does Barrie take that approach; do you have a single point of contact for homeless veterans?
Mr. Nuttall: No, we do not. That’s probably a good thing that we could institute.
I will just circle back to that social services issue for us, which is that we’re actually not in charge of it. I come here today and say that we’re taking funds from the federal and provincial governments that they have allocated for us to deliver housing with and trying to focus it in a way where we can include housing for veterans, but we’re actually not responsible for any of those items.
If I could take that away, perhaps it’s something that I could take to the County of Simcoe and they could consider instituting, not just for Barrie but for the entire region around the City of Barrie. If they’re not open that, we have to look at how Ottawa does it and where the funding comes from. That might be an opportunity to ask for funding from Veterans Affairs Canada to help with coordination on the ground. That would be the type of area where there might actually be a really good fit for the feds.
Senator McNair: You talked about a local church that is converting some of their lands to build housing, a portion of which you hope will be dedicated to veterans. You began by talking about the search being on for, I take it, additional lands to deal with more housing for veterans; am I right in that, or did I misconstrue that?
Mr. Nuttall: No, I think that’s accurate. We’re looking for opportunities, including our own land, to set aside for housing for homelessness, and for each of those opportunities, we are requesting units specifically set aside for individuals who served.
Senator McNair: Thank you. My next question has to do with your methodology. The data on homelessness that your organization collects is extremely detailed. I saw the dashboards for Saint John, Moncton and Fredericton, as you indicated. I’m just curious how often you refresh it. Is it on a monthly basis? I take it you, then, share it with the other stakeholders or organizations.
I’m curious to know how it’s leveraged into action in those circumstances.
Mr. Bishop: Thank you, senator.
The information is gathered through HIFIS, the Homeless Individuals and Families Information System, federally developed software that is web-based. Our organization provides training and technical assistance in that back-end work so that shelters, transitional programs, outreach and drop-ins are able to use it in a shared way.
We typically update the dashboards on a monthly basis. We’re working through some bugs from the latest HIFIS update, which is slowing us down in getting September’s information up.
In terms of how we use information to support action, I will just point to a few instances. One, we’re able to identify, on a monthly, basis how many individuals were housed, be they vets experiencing homelessness or others. We’re able to determine what made the success and what can be scaled up.
Another critical piece toward action is having either orders of government or departments seeing themselves as part of the solution. I’ll give you an example related to our Point-in-Time Counts, which are just one tool in the tool box. They are typically done every two years as opposed to ongoing HIFIS information gathering like we would through regular shelter or housing data in HIFIS. The Point-in-Time Count is broken into two components: We get an enumeration — the number itself — and then we have a survey that can range from anywhere from 14 to 25 questions, depending upon the year. We have about 25 set up for this next count in November.
We ask people about their circumstances and the other services they’ve touched upon. We see that people experiencing homelessness are heavy service users. They’re connecting to a lot of different places, which might not always be successful. When we have that information and have asked if they had been in prison or jail in the last 12 months; if they grew up in the care of the province, in foster care or other settings; if they’ve visited ERs or have been hospitalized, we can begin to see the range of services, and we can open up the conversations with those departments about what their discharge policies are. One could think that when they are in the care of some of these facilities, it would be an opportune time to start working to address some of the underlying issues that might have led to the individuals experiencing homelessness. That way, hopefully, we come up with some housing solutions rather than see them discharged back into homelessness.
The Chair: Thank you very much. I’m going to ask a question myself. I’ll ask Mayor Nuttall to respond first.
One of the challenges in Canada is the lack of shelter, affordable housing, which is driving people onto the street as well as the myriad of social problems that can be linked to eventually ending up living rough.
Mayor Nuttall, I’m trying to think of Barrie, because, as you know, I lived outside of there for quite a while. I’m looking at federal lands that surround either one of your cities. What sorts of discussions have you had to find out if those lands can be released? As we know, Ottawa itself has released a number of federal lands in the National Capital Region to be used for affordable housing. I’m just wondering if you can provide me with some information on that first.
Second, I’d like to come back to your comment about public‑private partnerships. It almost seems to be public-private-charitable partners, with the church certainly donating land. What other successes have you had? Is there anything we can do to help in this domain?
Mayor Nuttall, over to you first, please.
Mr. Nuttall: Thank you so much, chair. First of all, we have looked at our own city and tried to find opportunities for the province or the feds to be able to give land toward affordable housing as a whole.
The reality is that within the City of Barrie, we have experienced a lot of growth. A lot of that has already been sold or turned over. I notice there was a federal commission, but there was an Ontario Provincial Police station that has now been turned over to the County of Simcoe to deliver 230 affordable units, so that was a win. But often, we have to purchase those lands, which, as you know, when we’re going through the process of selling land from the government, there are appraisals, and procurement is very specific. We’re shifting from one taxpayer to the other. At the end of the day, they’re all the same taxpayer.
In terms of outside the City of Barrie, there are probably some real opportunities in the County of Simcoe for the federal government to come to the table with lands. If you think about Base Borden itself, is there an opportunity right on site there? There probably is. This is a huge base, as many of you would know. I think that is a good place to look. We would certainly love to be in that conversation and part of the solution on that.
In terms of the final piece, it’s public and then charitable partnership. For us locally here in the city of Barrie — we’re not Toronto; we don’t have all of the big banks and corporate Canada sitting at our disposal — this is where we see the most opportunity. The opportunity for private business to be part of it in finding organizations that will help us either sponsor what the services are after the facilities are built and the infrastructure is in place, or contribute toward the actual construction in the capital campaign.
We have a very vibrant building community here that can help with that as we move forward, but in terms of what you would traditionally see in the major cities, it’s a little tougher when you’re outside of those major urban centres.
The Chair: Thank you.
Mr. Bishop: Senator, would you like me to answer questions related to similar partnerships and opportunities to develop?
The Chair: Yes, please, if you could. Even as a coordinating organization, you certainly have an eye on the whole ecosystem that surrounds people who are living in these conditions.
Mr. Bishop: Absolutely. When I look at what has transpired in the last two to three years, throughout New Brunswick we have experienced a rapid increase, and the municipalities, the province and the federal government have not necessarily been well positioned to respond to the level of urgency that has been required. There are sources of funds through the National Housing Strategy and there are bilateral agreements with the province that allow for additional provincial dollars for construction and new builds, but what we’re seeing here at the local level is that there isn’t a great deal of corporate or private interests building the level of supportive housing that’s required.
There’s affordable housing, and what we talk about is deeply affordable and supportive housing for those who may be entrenched in the experience, who may be suffering from concurrent disorders. In these instances, we need facilities, housing, capital infrastructure built quickly and then the right operational dollars to provide those supports.
When we look across the spectrum of housing needs, we know that there are gaps in almost every aspect — from shelter to transitional. I hate to say it this way, but it almost feels like wartime measures are required. We need people to build quickly, and then I think the perfect opportunity is to see federal or provincial governments build custom-designed, supportive housing programs for various cohorts and to gift those, through agreements, to non-profits to operationalize.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator Anderson: Thank you to the two witnesses. Mr. Bishop, I’d like to know if you can elaborate on the stats you alluded to in your statement.
I’ve heard that some of the challenges being faced are the inconsistency of programs and funds that affect programs for veterans facing homelessness; the lack of coordination efforts between various levels of governments and services; and not enough urgency.
Mr. Bishop and Mayor Nuttall, ideally, how would you see the services look for homeless vets?
Mr. Nuttall: Mr. Bishop, I think you’re probably well positioned to answer that.
Mr. Bishop: Certainly. You had asked for a little bit more information on the data, generally speaking. Our last point-in-time count is where we gathered the richest information because of the survey. We had 580 individuals complete surveys throughout the three urban centres and in some rural districts as well. I have an hour-long presentation I could give you on all the details.
If I could just speak to the issue as a whole as opposed to various cohorts, including veterans experiencing homelessness, one of the most profound aspects of the information that I’ve seen is when we ask questions about first-time experiences with homelessness, over 40% of individuals currently experiencing homelessness also had a first time experiencing homelessness prior to the age of 25. When we’re looking at this as a whole, clearly, upstream approaches are necessary, and talking about youth homelessness and prevention is very important.
Speaking more about prevention generally, part of the veterans community connect program is about preventing veterans from becoming homeless in the first place with some resources as well. I’ll leave that there on the data side.
To the second portion of your question regarding programming, it has only been in the last two years when we’ve had a specific program available at the community level for veterans experiencing homelessness. That’s critical. Mayor Nuttall mentioned their interest in that concept as well. There was a significant gap. What we have now is a program that has staff who are mobile. They will go to where the people are, and that’s not always typical for civil servants. If it’s visiting folks at encampments and building rapport, that’s what the individual will do. And there are various resources that allow them to act where they could pay for furnishings, a moving van, fill the cupboards, sort the rent out and then work on accessing additional programs and services.
Mr. Nuttall: In terms of governments working together and the coordination of services, it’s very interesting when you consider the direct implication of the veterans issue on homelessness. Usually, when we’re looking at homelessness at large — in Ontario, at least — you have the provincial government that’s in charge of mental health supports and in charge of health care as a whole. Then you have local municipalities. In our case, the County of Simcoe is in charge of the social services, housing and the supports related to that. You also have the city that’s in charge of maintaining the safety and security of public spaces. In this case, you have the federal government here with Veterans Affairs.
When we’re bringing all of these different agencies or pieces of government together, I’ve yet to find somebody who’s coordinating that, let alone coordinating what’s happening fulsomely on the ground specifically for veterans. That’s just hitting me right now in the face, if you will, realizing that there’s not really that coordination between the different levels, let alone on the ground between all the different social services.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator Anderson: In my previous life, one of my roles was actually to develop an integrated case management team between departments and agencies with the Department of Justice and the Government of Northwest Territories. What you’re speaking of is actually a program that the Department of Justice runs out of Yellowknife. They had done a third-party evaluation and a social return investment on the Integrated Case Management Pilot Program, which it was at the time.
They found that the conservatively calculated ratio concluded that every dollar the GNWT invested into Integrated Case Management Program resulted in at least $4.50 of value. Most of this value is returned to the ICM participants, 56%, or $2.52, but a significant portion is returned to the GNWT as well, 29%, or $1.31, with additional value generated for children and families of ICM participants of 14% or 66 cents.
This program went on to be funded. This program is actually headed by the Department of Justice, but it is an integrated program with health and social services, housing, child and family services and works with clients with multiple, complex needs. I think it’s a clear example of a program that can work.
I just wanted to put that out there. If you wanted more information, I’d be happy to pass that on.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Senator Anderson. That is fascinating and noted. I would like more information on that, please. Maybe the committee would also be interested in what you have.
Colleagues, we have about 12 minutes left. We will go to our second round. We’ll stick with approximately three minutes. To our witnesses, don’t hesitate to make sure you get your points in. We can certainly request a written submission afterwards.
Senator Richards: Thank you for being here. Mr. Bishop. I lived in Saint John, I lived in Fredericton and up on the Miramichi. Homelessness was not as serious a problem when I lived in Saint John as it is now.
When you speak of chronic homelessness, how do addiction, PTSD and other forms of mental anguish play a part? How do methamphetamine and fentanyl play a part? Certainly on the Miramichi, we’ve seen an increase of drug addiction and homelessness and how they go hand in hand. How does your organization address this or try to address this? Do you have the help and resources to do so?
Mr. Bishop: Thank you, senator. I can be relative quick. On the substance use piece and the current kind of crisis, I still feel like services are struggling. They would want me to say it in stronger language, to respond to the needs of individuals who are actively using some of these stronger street drugs, if you will.
As it relates to chronic homelessness in general and the levels of challenges related to mental health or substance use, our figures would suggest that somewhere around 70% of the individuals out there are struggling with one or the other, and about 50% would be struggling from concurrent disorders or challenges related to substance use and mental health and wellness. Therein lie some of the complicating factors in supporting people towards their housing journey.
There’s simply just not enough housing and not enough access to recovery programs in general.
The Chair: Thank you very much. Mayor Nuttall, would you like to add anything?
Mr. Nuttall: Access to supports for those experiencing addictions in terms of treatment and rehabilitation is subpar across the country. When I was a member of Parliament, I did a report on this. It went from B.C. right across to Ontario, and it went to multiple places in Toronto and in Ontario. The access to actual long-term treatment and rehabilitation for individuals who are not covered under benefit programs are just not there. Even if you are covered under a benefit program, the reality is that you need to move through detox to get to treatment and rehabilitation, and the wait times on detox are prohibitive to individuals actually taking advantage of being lucid to make that choice to get treatment and rehabilitation.
It’s a whole other subject, but it’s quite broad.
The Chair: Thank you very much. Senator Deacon, I’d like to follow up on your previous question and anything else you have.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you very much. I appreciate that. I’ll come back to Mr. Bishop with what I had started. With the incredible data you have, what can you tell us about your particular organization or the other three in New Brunswick and what you’re seeing with female vets; numbers, access, trying to identify, find customized programming, et cetera?
Mr. Bishop: Thank you, senator. As you asked the question, I was quickly trying to pull up our last report that we submitted to the funder.
I don’t have percentages, but in terms of age demographics, for our 30- to 39-year-olds, we had 10 males and 1 was female, so 1%. The 40 to 49, we had 23 individuals, 30 male, 3 female; 50 to 59, there were 30 individuals, and of those, 3 were female. And our age cohort of 60 to 69, we had 13 of which 3 were female. I’m going to give you an average to say it was about 1% to 2% approximately who identified as female, so quite a small portion.
Senator M. Deacon: That you know of. I understand you don’t need to go looking for more folks. You’re right, it’s a low number, but how does your team work to try to make sure that they are finding their way to your services?
Mr. Bishop: That’s such a critical piece to this. I’ll just say two points.
One, having outreach programs is critical, where people are going to the further reaches of a community, parks and so on. There is a good deal of work left to do as it relates to the experience of women and homelessness.
Generally speaking, if I were to pull out some data from HIFIS use, I would guess that 70% are going to be male. A lot of our organizations who serve women or gender-diverse folks will tell you it looks different for our people. Whether it’s unsafe couch surfing or other experiences where there’s a quid pro quo, it’s one of our blind spots. I’ll just say that.
Senator M. Deacon: Thank you. Mayor, I also want to come to you on this issue because you have a wealth of knowledge and experience down the road from you. As you are looking at the focus of land acquisition, designs and builds, we’ve also learned that we can finally, frankly, have our female veterans in facilities, and they can be re-triggered or re-traumatized based upon some of the designs and features that need to be included.
Are you at the stage, mayor, where you’re looking at some of those specific pieces, or is it just way too early because it’s the land acquisition battle right now?
Mr. Nuttall: Yes, I think it’s probably too early to get right into that. I will say that we do have a very vibrant women’s and children’s shelter here in the City of Barrie. We could always use more space, and we could always use more specified services for specific cohorts. But I think it’s one of the places where we are strong, and that’s almost completely not-for-profit run, with private fundraising for that.
The other thing I want to identify for you is that we did a homelessness summit on the weekend at a different church than the one we’ve been previously talking about. One individual — and this is a new thing for me in the last few days, so I think it’s timely that you asked this question — was a woman perhaps somewhere in her 60s. She stood up and said, “I need help. I need it right now. I’ve been trying to find a route that is not couch surfing for the last number of months. I tried going to an encampment.” She started sharing with the entire group that she has experienced physical and sexual trauma since then, and it’s heartbreaking that it’s happening in our community. If it’s happening here, I’m going to guess it’s happening across the country.
It was eye-opening for me. I wish we had known earlier. I wish we had someone available to help this individual earlier, but we can learn from that and try to figure out how we reach those individuals when they’re moving from an abusive situation out to couch surfing or encampments and then having further abuses take place. We need to find out how we get to that intervening moment sooner.
So I’m all ears. I certainly look forward to your report if there are others who have come and provided testimony and support on how we can address this and move forward.
The Chair: Thank you very much. This brings us to the end of our panel today. We hear compelling testimony every single time. Today, we have certainly talked about the challenges of actually being able to build and to coordinate the services when you have nowhere to do transition sheltering or get people into affordable shelter. It doesn’t really seem to matter where you live in the country.
The second thing we’ve talked about is that there is data out there and it is certainly being collected regionally. One thing we know about veterans is that they tend to be in key centres around the country, so anything that you have, Mr. Bishop, the committee would be very interested in your reports. If you would be willing to submit, it would be outstanding.
Mayor Nuttall, the same goes for you. If there are any particular local initiatives that you are working on right now in looking at how to navigate a system with four levels of government or organizations in your case — and three in Mr. Bishop’s case — that would be greatly appreciated by this committee.
Finally, vulnerable populations are of all genders and all intersections of identity. Going into any of these new builds, they have to be looked at from the absolute get-go because there are lots of people in society. There are those who are truly invisible, and they tend to be those who are equity-seeking groups.
With that, I would like to thank our witnesses on behalf of everyone here at the committee. Colleagues, this wraps up today’s witness testimony for our study. Because we’ve had a slight change in plans, we won’t go in camera at this point. We will meet again on that.
(The committee adjourned.)