THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON INTERNAL ECONOMY, BUDGETS AND ADMINISTRATION
EVIDENCE
OTTAWA, Thursday, December 11, 2025
The Standing Senate Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration met this day at 8:02 a.m. [ET], in camera, pursuant to rule 12-7(1), to consider financial and administrative matters; and, in public, pursuant to rule 12-7(1), to consider financial and administrative matters.
Senator Lucie Moncion (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
(The committee continued in camera.)
(The committee resumed in public.)
The Chair: Good morning. My name is Lucie Moncion. I am an Ontario senator and it is my privilege to chair the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration for the last time.
[English]
I would like to acknowledge that the land on which we gather is on the traditional, ancestral and unceded territory of the Anishinaabe Algonquin Nation and is now home to many other First Nations, Métis and Inuit Peoples from across Turtle Island.
I now ask my colleagues to introduce themselves.
Senator Al Zaibak: Good morning, everyone. Mohammad Al Zaibak, Ontario.
[Translation]
Senator Loffreda: Good morning. Tony Loffreda, Quebec.
Senator Oudar: Good morning. Manuelle Oudar, Quebec.
[English]
Senator Boyer: Yvonne Boyer, Ontario.
Senator Boehm: Peter Boehm, Ontario.
Senator Hay: Katherine Hay, Ontario.
[Translation]
Senator Forest: Good morning. Éric Forest from the Gulf region, in Quebec.
[English]
Senator MacAdam: Jane MacAdam, Prince Edward Island.
Senator McNair: John McNair, New Brunswick.
Senator Black: Rob Black, Ontario.
Senator Duncan: Pat Duncan, Yukon.
Senator Smith: Larry Smith from Saurel, Quebec.
Senator Francis: Brian Francis, Epekwitk, Prince Edward Island.
Senator Tannas: Scott Tannas, Alberta.
[Translation]
Senator Audette: Michèle Audette [Innu-aimun spoken] from Quebec.
Thank you for your leadership, Senator Moncion.
[English]
Senator Osler: Flordeliz (Gigi) Osler, Manitoba.
[Translation]
Senator Quinn: Jim Quinn, New Brunswick.
Senator Henkel: Danièle Henkel, Quebec.
Senator Moreau: Pierre Moreau from the Laurentian region, Quebec.
[English]
Senator Moodie: Rosemary Moodie, Ontario.
The Chair: I would also like to welcome all who follow our deliberations across the country.
[Translation]
Colleagues, our first item for the public portion of today’s meeting is the consent agenda for approval. Just a reminder that the consent agenda items are not controversial, but require our approval. For these items, a briefing note, form and other documents are submitted ahead of time, but no presentation is needed.
The consent agenda for today’s meeting contains the following three items: the Minutes of Proceedings from the meeting of November 27, 2025, which was held in public and in camera; the annual report of the Joint Interparliamentary Council, the JIC; and a motion for Senator Ross to replace Senator Downe on the Joint Interparliamentary Council.
We have the voluminous report from the JIC on the consent agenda. Some members of the committee might prefer that we remove this report from the agenda and discuss it at another meeting. If so, we are prepared to do that, because it was an important report and we were asked to include it in today’s meeting.
JIC representatives are with us today if you have any questions about the document. It is a very large report. Our new rule states that we have to receive large documents one week in advance. However, you received the report within the last 48 hours and it’s understandable that you may not have had enough time to go through the document or to prepare your questions. If that’s the case, we can take it off the consent agenda if you wish, and discuss it at the end of the meeting if we have time, or put it on the agenda of another meeting. Do I leave it on the consent agenda?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: You’re okay with the report.
Can I have a mover for the following motion:
That the consent agenda be approved.
Senator Moreau: I so move.
The Chair: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: I declare the motion carried.
I would like to thank the JIC representatives for their excellent presentation. If we have any questions, we will send them by email. I encourage colleagues to send questions to the secretariat of the Committee on Internal Economy. We will ask for additional information if necessary.
Thank you.
[English]
The next item is reports from the Subcommittee on Senate Estimates and Committee Budgets, committee budgets requests from the Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry. As usual, this presentation will be followed by time for questions.
It is my understanding that Senator Forest will make opening remarks. Marie-Eve Belzile, Clerk Assistant and Director of Committees, is present and available to answer questions relating to the committee’s financial policy. As well, Senator Black and Senator McNair are present to respond to any questions regarding the purpose of the trip.
Senator Forest, the floor is yours.
[Translation]
The Honourable Éric Forest: Thank you, Madam Chair. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you and to congratulate you on your very important mandate.
Honourable senators, I have the honour to present the fifth report of the subcommittee, which deals with the budget request of the Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry. The committee requested $27,145 for a fact-finding mission to Gatineau, Quebec and Toronto and Guelph, Ontario, for nine senators and five parliamentary staff members.
Following our meeting, I received a letter from Senator McNair, vice-chair of the committee, requesting the addition of interpretation costs to their application, for an additional amount of $7,045. The new total requested, including the costs associated with interpretation, is $34,190.
Your subcommittee recommends as follows:
[English]
That CIBA approves this adjusted budget request to include interpretation services.
[Translation]
This recommendation follows two committee budget requests submitted this year that were presented without interpretation, with the aim of achieving savings.
Your subcommittee would like to remind all honourable senators that the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the Official Languages Act declare English and French to be the official languages of Canada and provide that both languages have equality of status and equal rights and privileges respecting their use in all institutions of Parliament.
Your subcommittee believes that cost savings should not come at the expense of constitutional rights related to official languages, particularly with respect to communications with the public and the language of work for all participants.
Your subcommittee encourages committees to identify other opportunities for savings in the preparation of their budgets.
Senator Black and Senator McNair have joined me to respond to any questions you may have. Unless there are any questions, I recommend the adoption of this report.
[English]
The Chair: Are there any questions or comments, colleagues?
Seeing none, it is moved by the Honourable Senator Forest that the fifth report of the Subcommittee on Senate Estimates and committee budgets be adopted.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
[Translation]
The next item on the agenda is the sixth report of the Subcommittee on Senate Estimates and Committee Budgets, which concerns the 2026-27 Main Estimates. Senator Forest, chair of the subcommittee, will present the report. He will be assisted by Isabelle Richard, Chief Financial Officer and Nathalie Charpentier, Comptroller.
Senator Forest, you can start with your opening remarks and then I will open the floor to questions from senators.
[English]
Senator Forest: I have the honour to present sixth report of the Subcommittee on Senate Estimates and Committee Budget, which concerns the Senate 2026-27 budget.
[Translation]
This year’s review took place in an unusual economic environment, and this obviously shaped your subcommittee’s work.
I’ll start by sharing some figures to illustrate the broader context.
In 2023, the Senate started an expenditure review process, well before the government initiated its own comprehensive expenditure review. Some efficiencies were identified, and these have already resulted in annual savings of approximately $384,000.
For example, the Communications, Broadcasting and Publications Directorate was restructured, the media review supplier was changed, and the number of land-based telephone lines was reduced.
Additionally, in 2023, the Senate established a full-time equivalent cap of 449 and this has been complied with to date.
[English]
After adjusting for inflation, the Senate budget has increased by approximately 9% over the last 10 fiscal years.
[Translation]
Excluding inflation, our expenditures have gone up by 9% over the past 10 years, which demonstrates prudent management.
Over the same period, excluding inflation, over 10 years, the House of Commons budgets have increased by 22%, while public service budgets have grown by 76%.
I would now like to draw your attention to the highlights of the proposed 2026-27 budget.
The Senate’s Main Estimates for fiscal 2026-27 are proposed to be $141,409,806. This represents a 1.5% increase. This increase includes economic increases in salaries and associated benefits, which represent 2.5% of the overall budget growth. Excluding these increases, the Senate’s overall budget shows a 1% reduction.
The largest increase recommended for this year is an increase of $3 million corresponding to the rise in non-discretionary statutory expenditures. These include adjustments to senators’ allowances and travel expenses, as well as contributions to employee benefits.
There is an increase of $1.6 million in budgets for services to senators provided by the administration to cover inflation as well as economic increases for non-represented employees, the Senate executive and middle management group, judicial and Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada employees, as well as the reclassification of 10 positions.
The budget for house officers, caucuses and recognized parliamentary groups is increased by $305,000, which corresponds to a general readjustment based on the inflation rate of 3%.
The budget includes an increase of $85,000 for corporate training for senators’ staff and administration employees, as well as to fund corporate programs. This will allow the Senate to reach the equivalent of 1% of the actual payroll on training to align the Senate to the levels of investment in training observed in the public service.
The individual annual living expenses budget is increased from $30,000 to $36,000 due to the financial impact associated with rising hotel accommodation costs in the parliamentary district.
Lastly, the annual office budget allocated to each senator for 2026-27 will increase from $268,405 to $271,645 due to economic salary increases and inflation. This amount may increase slightly on April 1, 2026, based on actual economic increases, in accordance with the salary adjustment formula for parliamentarians.
As requested by the Board of Internal Economy, your subcommittee also reviewed previous Senate budgets in order to recommend savings.
In this connection, your subcommittee proposes a $2.4 million reduction in the overall funding envelope for senators’ offices, as well as a $1 million reduction in the budget for committee activities.
These reductions correspond to surplus funds from prior years, and the proposal is therefore consistent with the subcommittee’s mandate to find savings and internal reallocations where possible. These measures represent a reduction of $3.4 million, or 2.4% in the budget for next year.
Your subcommittee would like to note that the Senate has spent 86% of its approved annual budget over the past five years.
One last important point to note is that your subcommittee has heard senators’ concerns regarding the high cost of the parliamentary pension plan. We recommend that the Committee on Internal Economy formally share concerns about the structure with the President of the Treasury Board to ensure the pension plan delivers reasonable returns. These concerns have been raised in the past.
I would like to point out that after the holiday break, the subcommittee will initiate an in-depth review of expenditures for each of the Senate Administration directorates while continuing with its efforts to find savings and efficiency gains during an in-depth review of expenditures. This is going to be the most important mandate for the coming year.
[English]
I would like to thank Senator Hay, Senator Mohamed, Senator Carignan, Senator Al Zaibak and Senator Tannas for their diligence, attention to detail and invaluable collaboration in preparing the 2026-27 budget.
[Translation]
I would also like to thank the entire management team for its professionalism and collaboration and to highlight Ms. Isabelle Ricard’s support throughout this process.
Thank you. I will be happy to answer your questions before I move to adopt the 2026-27 budget.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Forest. Are there any questions or comments?
Senator Moreau: I have a few questions, Senator Forest.
You stated that there was a $1 million reduction in committees’ operating expenditures. To my understanding — and I would like you to confirm this — this reduction does not affect senators’ ability to do their work. From what I understand, this amount was not spent year after year, but was still in the budget, and the surplus remaining for committee operations after the $1 million reduction is sufficient to ensure Senate committees have all the resources they need to do their work. Is that right?
Senator Forest: That’s entirely accurate. A look at the overall budget shows the Senate has spent an average of 86% of its allocated budget over the past five years.
The two items where there is a significant reallocation are those of committees, with $1 million. It is crystal clear that there will be enough room to fully undertake activities.
Senator Moreau: I understand this reduction will result in an overall increase in the budget which is limited to 1.5%?
Senator Forest: Exactly. The two reallocations will contribute greatly to a 1.5% increase in this year’s budget, despite inflation of approximately 3%.
Senator Moreau: In your opening remarks, you stated that a few years ago, the Senate initiated a comprehensive review to reduce budget increases. There was a freeze on employment at the Senate. Is that correct?
Senator Forest: That’s right. The number of full-time equivalents was capped at 449 and that has not been exceeded since the freeze was put in place a few years ago.
Senator Moreau: Does the budget you have proposed today retain this job freeze?
Senator Forest: It has retained the cap of 449 full-time equivalents.
Senator Moreau: There are projected retirements in key positions, such as the Deputy Clerk, as well as other individuals. Do the proposed estimates of $141,409,806 have a provision to fill these positions? These are very senior positions in the parliamentary hierarchy.
Senator Forest: The estimates have provisions to fill these positions. The key point is the exercise we will undertake when we come back where all directorates will review personnel and operating needs. That’s when we will be able to reintroduce and realign a budget. For now, the budget provides for similar operations to what’s in place today.
Senator Moreau: Does that figure not account for cost savings from position attrition?
Senator Forest: No.
Senator Moreau: Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you. Are there other questions or comments?
[English]
Senator MacAdam: I have a question regarding the concerns that are going to be indicated to the President of the Treasury Board regarding the pension plan. Would you just highlight some of those?
[Translation]
Senator Forest: The pension plan was reformed. In 2016, steps were taken to ask for it to be reviewed. I’m not sure I have the accurate information, so perhaps Ms. Legault might expand on this later. A committee was struck and it reached out to then Minister Duclos. I believe there has been no response. We heard legitimate and relevant concerns from many colleagues. We are asking for follow-up with the Treasury Board Secretariat of Canada once more to clarify this matter and to have the necessary information to ensure the pension plan is fair to the employer and to senators. Perhaps Ms. Legault can provide more information on that.
The Chair: If I may, I served on the committee that studied this matter. The committee hired an external consultant to review the pension plan. Several aspects of the pension plan vary from the norm.
[English]
Our pension fund is an unfunded pension fund, meaning that the money that we put into the pension fund goes into the operating budget of the government. It is not invested. Actuarial calculations are done, and they are based on low rates of return.
We have tried, with the minister, to find solutions to bring the senators’ pension fund and that of members of Parliament — because our pension funds are combined — to be brought into the pension fund that exists right now, and the Treasury Board doesn’t want to look at it. But this was put in place by a former government, before 2013. We were told at the time that they were going to fix the problem once they were re-elected. The problem was never fixed, so we are still at the same point as we were.
We are looking at a 50-50 contribution to the pension fund.
There is a report that exists. Senator David Wells was the chair of that committee, and we studied it. We understand the situation, and we have written to the Treasury Board. However, they won’t bring any changes to the fund.
What we can do now is try again to see if there would be some opening to look into fixing the portion where, if it were invested, there would be returns. It would be a burden that would be less on Canadians moving forward. It could also become a fully funded pension fund. As it is right now, it is not because it is not invested properly.
[Translation]
Senator Forest: We are proposing to revisit this matter.
[English]
The Chair: Any other comments or questions?
[Translation]
Senator Forest: I move the adoption of the 2026–27 budget.
The Chair: Are you moving the adoption of the sixth report?
Senator Forest: Yes.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Forest.
[English]
Senator Quinn: I have a question.
We’re taking reductions; I understand balancing and books for this year. When we were having employment equity discussions, I didn’t talk about how that is going to be handled. This year, surpluses will cover it, but next year, the employment equity work touches the vast majority of employees in senators’ offices. I have to be careful how I say this — should we not take that into consideration in the Main Estimates to become a part of senators’ offices? We have a good handle on where the employment equity is going to be affected, and if we have a good handle on that, should we not then build that into the database, just like we should the economic increases that we know — they are estimated now, and I understand that; I’m talking about the employment equity.
[Translation]
Senator Forest: Is your question whether potential pay equity expenses are covered? Is that your question?
Isabelle Ricard, Chief Financial Officer, Finance and Procurement Directorate, Senate of Canada: They are not covered because they have not yet been approved or ratified. Before an expenditure is approved or ratified, we cannot include it in the Main Estimates. However, we do take it into consideration in our financial forecasts. We have a plan to deal with them, but they have not been included in the Main Estimates.
[English]
Senator Quinn: We are going to be doing a review of the administration in the coming year. Are there expenses or projections of increases in activities within the administration that could be or should be frozen, pending the results of that review? Did the committee examine that?
[Translation]
Senator Forest: It’s not possible for me to anticipate the outcome of the review. The review will enable us to take each directorate and contextualize the reality of 2026-27 and the role we have to play, because a lot has changed since then.
Senator Quinn: It does not cover forecasts. It covers the issue of a spending freeze in the coming year.
[English]
Are there those expenses that can reasonably be held until we have the administrative review done? In other words, if we incur an expense, it could be a recurring expense going forward that may be affected, why would we not just hold on those areas that could be frozen, pending the results of the review?
[Translation]
Senator Forest: The committee will make the decision, and the Committee on Internal Economy may or may not approve it.
All expenditures planned to ensure the Senate functions smoothly in 2026-27 have been included in our budget. I am confident that the budget will allocate the resources we need to fulfill our mandate.
If extraordinary expenses arise along the way and an analysis needs to be carried out, I think we all have the wisdom . . . For an extraordinary expense to be approved, it must be submitted to the Committee on Internal Economy. Collectively, we will have the wisdom to analyze it and to accept or reject it.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you. No more questions?
[Translation]
Senator Forest moved that the Sixth Report of the Subcommittee on Senate Estimates concerning the Main Estimates for 2026-27 be adopted and presented to the Senate. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt this motion?
Hon. senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
[English]
Item 7 is the report from the Subcommittee on Long Term Vision and Plan. Josée Labelle, Director General, Property and Services Directorate; and Louise Cowley, Director of Long Term Vision Plan & Accommodation, will now join us as witnesses. It is my understanding that Senator Tannas will make a few opening remarks, and Josée and Louise will assist in answering questions.
Senator Tannas, the floor is yours.
Hon. Scott Tannas: Colleagues, I have the honour to present the Long Term Vision and Plan Subcommittee’s second report. The report provides an update on access to natural light in the workplace, following a survey conducted among senators’ staff in the spring of 2025. It also includes as recommendation to implement a moratorium on any new office moves into or within the Victoria Building.
As senators may know, the Victoria Building is scheduled to close in early 2027 to allow for its full rehabilitation as part of the Long Term Vision and Plan. In the end state, the building will accommodate the House of Commons. Senators currently located in the Victoria Building will be relocated to the Chambers Building where 45 new office units are now under construction.
To ensure a smooth transition from the Victoria Building to the Chambers Building, we need to pause all moves into and within the Victoria Building. Your subcommittee therefore recommends that a grace period be granted until the end of January 2026 to allow occupants of the Victoria Building to carry out briefcase moves within the building.
The senators who wish to continue to occupy a generic office — the beginning early office that you get when you first get appointed as a generic office — in the Victoria Building be allowed to do so and that office would be considered their permanent space. If you move into one of those offices, you’re not allowed to hang pictures and so on because the expectation is you’re going to move.
If they decide to stay now, they can hang pictures and it is their permanent office until we move them again in 2027.
Starting February 1, 2026, a moratorium be imposed on any office moves to or within the Victoria Building, except for health and safety/approved accommodation exemptions in order to allow for the efficient allocation of resources and preparation for the building’s closure in 2027 and that a communication plan be developed to inform all the occupants of the Victoria Building of the terms and implementation of the moratorium.
As was mentioned, Josée and Louise are here and we’re happy together to answer any questions.
The Chair: Are there any questions or comments? Seeing none, it is moved by Honourable Senator Tannas that the second report of the Subcommittee on Long Term Vision and Plan be adopted.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: Carried.
Item 8 is a request for an exception to the Senators’ Office Management Policy regarding living expenses in the parliamentary district budget. This item is being brought to your attention because, as per the decision of the Internal Economy Committee, or CIBA, on November 27, 2025, all new exception requests are now to be presented directly to the CIBA.
Good morning Senator Duncan, and welcome. We have received your request and the supporting documents. Would you like to summarize the situation and your request to CIBA?
Senator Duncan: Thank you very much, and thank you to my colleagues for the opportunity to present this case.
You have received the letter in writing. In short, when I arrived in the Senate in February 2019, I met with finance who advised me that additional living expenses would be available given the length and distance of my required travel.
That was subsequently changed to a standard form that was submitted for this request, and it is now a request in front of you directly for additional living expenses.
As I have outlined in my letter, I have rather a distance to travel and it is more cost-effective for the Senate for me to remain in Ottawa and to focus on work here on some weekends as opposed to travelling home.
I might add, senators, that I’m not the only one in this situation and I do recognize that. I would ask that, should my other colleagues from the North submit requests, they receive the same consideration.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Duncan. Any questions or comments?
Senator Tannas: Senator Duncan, I just wanted to check, the amount that you’ve exhausted right now is the $30,000 amount, and we actually reduced the amount for every senator’s office — which in prior years was $37,000 — to $30,000. But we also said that in doing so we were really just trying to average down. We recognized that there would be senators who, like yourself, would use the full $37,000. There was an expectation. You’re the first one here of a parade of folks that will be coming as we get closer to the end of March.
But just so everyone is clear, this was expected. We should expect another 10, 15, 20 potentially senators who will come and say, “Your arbitrary decision to reduce the amount from $37,000 to $30,000 last year with the expectation of this happening,” and you’re the early bird and there will be others.
Colleagues, I wanted to make sure that I understood that’s what was happening and that we all had a little piece of the history and what’s to come. Thank you.
Senator Duncan: If I might respond to that? That is exactly correct, Senator Tannas. When I was advised that the amount had been reduced, I was immediately advised by those who were working on the budgets, you can apply for more. I did not anticipate a public request.
The Chair: Nor did we.
Senator Tannas: Are you now a house officer?
Senator Duncan: That would be a better question directed to Senator Moreau, but I do believe I am, yes.
Senator Tannas: Because I think there is an exception for house officers that you now qualify for that may also help as well. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you.
Senator Quinn: Thank you, Senator Tannas, I was going to say a bit of what you just said, but I was also going to suggest that in order to avoid this situation, we know that appointments are made from various areas of the country; is there not a way that we can look at the various areas of the country and say, people coming from the Yukon, for example, automatically should have a higher amount and things of that nature? People who are coming from the Northwest Territories and areas of Newfoundland — there might be a way to avoid this in the future instead of coming case by case by case in a public venue. It is the cost of being senator, in this case from the Yukon.
We need to do it in a way that is more transparent for the senator coming into a new role in life, so they understand that the expenses associated with coming to Ottawa are covered. It’s just a suggestion.
[Translation]
Senator Forest: We have a points system that weighs the difference in costs for someone like me travelling between Quebec City and Ottawa and someone else travelling between Vancouver and Ottawa. Our points system is not based on travel costs, but on the number of trips.
Here is my question. In the budget that has just been adopted, living expenses have increased from $30,000 to $36,000 and to $38,110 for senior house officers. Since you are a senior house officer, would this budget be sufficient for you without you having to apply for an exception?
[English]
Senator Duncan: I suspect so, in answer to Senator Forest, but also accounting for the fact that — as we have heard individually and know that other Canadians are experiencing — there are increased costs everywhere. I believe so. Certainly, senators try to live within that.
[Translation]
Senator Forest: There is still the issue of ensuring public funds are managed prudently. Although it is currently cheaper to live in the national capital, except in the case of requests for exception, there is no clear policy on the matter. This issue should undoubtedly be addressed when directorates are reviewed.
The Chair: I would like to add that the difference is also due to the choices that senators make to either buy a property, rent space or stay in a hotel. Senators’ choices have an impact on the budget.
[English]
Senator Osler: Thank you, Senator Duncan, for being here. You are a senator representing the Yukon. You have a new role in the Government Representative’s Office in the Senate. It demands your time. We often sit into Thursday evenings. Committees sit on Mondays. You may have meetings on Mondays due to your new role.
Could you share with the committee the current reality of trying to leave Ottawa, getting to the Yukon for the weekend and then coming back? What would that look like, especially in the current realities of airlines and connections?
Senator Duncan: Thank you for the question, Senator Osler. In order to get home, I might be able to get a flight on Thursday night but more often than not it would be advisable to take one on Friday morning. I would get home probably, with the three-hour time-zone difference, early evening or midnight Friday. That necessitates me leaving at 3 a.m. from my home on Sunday morning. It’s really not effective.
There is another point that I didn’t mention but which should be factored in. Originally the policy stated it would not be reasonable for health and safety reasons. There is a tremendous impact on the health of individuals who are flying continually across the country. That should be factored into consideration as well.
I might add that my connections are easier than those of my colleague Senator Karetak-Lindell from Arviat.
Senator Osler: Senator Duncan, thank you for that. Can you tell us a bit about the travel time on airplanes? Are these long-haul flights? What amount of time are you spending getting to your destination?
Senator Duncan: Not including travel and waiting around airports, it’s a five or five-and-a-half-hour flight if you get the direct flight from Ottawa to Vancouver. Then it’s two and a half hours home from there to Whitehorse. That’s where I live, so that’s easy for me. If I were a senator from Dawson City, it would be considerably more.
Senator Osler: Thank you.
[Translation]
Senator Moreau: This is not necessarily a question, but I wanted to emphasize that Senator Duncan is doing a remarkable job in the Government Representative’s Office in the Senate, which requires considerable hours of work. I was a witness in the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament recently, and there was talk of equality among senators.
We are very pleased — and I think I speak for all the senators here today — to represent a vast country, but that size, both in terms of physical size and reputation, comes with constraints, particularly in terms of physical aspects.
It is entirely normal that because of their roles in the Senate, senators should be considered equal, but the conditions under which they carry out their mandate should take into account the realities inherent in our beautiful and great country. I want to support the suggestion made by Senator Forest earlier. I think it’s very unfortunate that Senator Duncan had to appear as a witness to ask to be treated equitably in terms of health, safety and ability to do her job, and to request additional funding, which could be seen as someone having to beg in order to fulfill her mandate.
I don’t want to apologize to Senator Duncan on behalf of the committee, but I do want to stress that there should be clear rules that make allowances for certain things to be done in cases as obvious as this one. We should have the ability to respond and ensure that these requests can be granted without the need for any of us to parade before our peers, as Senator Tannas said, to show that the current rules fall short of what we need to do our job and prevent similar situations from recurring.
Thank you, Senator Duncan, for being the first to dare to challenge this barrier. We need to engage in some very serious reflection on the need for rules that allow for the necessary flexibility to grant legitimate requests that our colleagues may make, as Senator Duncan has done this morning, so that when colleagues make such requests, they do not have to go to such lengths.
Senator Henkel: Thank you, Senator Duncan, for appearing today, and thank you for having the courage to appear before the committee. Like my colleague and friend, Senator Moreau, I would like to say that I am delighted that you had the courage to appear before us today, for two reasons. First, this allows all senators, those who are responsible for our budgets, and the public to understand the challenges facing our senators.
I believe it is high time we engage in serious reflection on how to make adjustments so that senators can do their work, especially when they travel a long way, because this adds undue stress. The fact that we are discussing this matter today in public at the Committee on Internal Economy helps us to recognize how important it is to respect senators when they do their work, and that they should not have to beg for anything.
[English]
Senator Tannas: It is probably a good idea if we ask the administration to do an analysis of all the senators and try to identify those who will potentially exceed the $30,000 before April 1 and advise them of it. Many of them will be managing their offices, but some may not, and we can encourage them based on a projection for the number of sitting days that the administration can help them with. We would do this once and rather than having everyone have to come here — we can have them all come here if that’s necessary — but we would be able to deal with it on a schedule. Do it once, and it will be done.
Senator Duncan: Thank you to all of the committee for your time this morning. I would like to remind you that a per diem cost for me to stay on a weekend is $564. The flight home is roughly $4,200. It’s also about saving the Senate money in terms of accommodating those who travel, so we do need to examine that.
The Senate Administrative Rules are still sorting out the Government Representative’s Office, so I’m not technically a house officer at this time. Thank you for your time.
The Chair: Colleagues, it’s moved by Senator Moreau that the committee approves the request by the Honourable Senator Duncan for an exception to the Senators’ Office Management Policy in order to increase her living expenses budget for 2025-26.
Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you, colleagues. Carried.
All right. I’ll go on to item 9.
[Translation]
This is a request for reallocation of the budget surplus. Honourable senators, the next item concerns a request to use surplus funds from the overall senators’ office budget funding envelope to cover the pressure exerted by economic increases in salaries and staff departures in the offices of senior Senate officials who retired this year.
Isabelle Ricard, Chief Financial Officer, and Nathalie Charpentier, Comptroller and Deputy Chief Financial Officer, will join us as witnesses.
We will be discussing economic salary increases and departures in the offices of senior Senate officials, namely those who retired this year.
Isabelle, we have reviewed the briefing note. Could you give us a brief overview of the situation and the anticipated outcome?
Ms. Ricard: Honourable senators, our goal today is to request the committee to authorize a budget transfer from the anticipated surplus from the overall senators’ office budget funding envelope to cover expenses that could not be included in the budget that are associated with salaries for senators’ staff and administrative staff; this specifically concerns the cost of payments for the current year due to economic salary increases for administrative staff and separation, severance and vacation payouts for senators’ staff following the retirement of three senior officers.
To provide a little more context, it is common practice in the Senate to make internal transfers to cover certain financial pressures that cannot be included in the budget at the time the Main Estimates are prepared, such as economic salary increases that are only confirmed at the beginning of or during the next fiscal year.
For example, in the 2026–27 budget we presented a few minutes ago, budget forecasts for next year do not include economic salary increases, as these have not yet been determined. Although we can estimate these economic increases, Treasury Board budget rules do not allow us to include forecasts of economic increases in a future budget. Budgets are only allocated once agreements have been ratified or final decisions have been made. The approach of using a budget surplus to cover pressure is possible because funds are generally available in the overall senators’ office budget envelope, as they spend an average of 83% of their annual budget, according to historical data.
It is important to understand that this budget transfer is possible because it is based on expenditure forecasts and does not reduce senators’ individual budgets. This mechanism ensures continuity of operations without any need to resort to additional funds, as it optimizes the use of available resources and promotes prudent and responsible management of financial resources.
[English]
Regarding financial implications, here are the numbers. The equality financial forecast completed in Q2 on September 30 has confirmed that the availability of surplus funds within the senators’ office budget funding envelope is estimated at approximately $5.2 million. The pressure associated with the unfunded economic salary increases for the administration employees totals $1.162 million and the pressures related to the separation, severance and vacation payouts associated with the retirement of three house officers is estimated at $830,000.
It is therefore recommended that CIBA authorize the administration to proceed with the required budget transfers up to a maximum of $1.992 million from the anticipated surplus from the overall senators’ office budget funding envelope to cover for these pressures.
[Translation]
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am available to answer any questions you may have.
[English]
The Chair: Are there any questions or comments?
[Translation]
Can I have a mover for the following motion?
Senator Forest: I so move.
The Chair: It is moved that the committee authorize a budget transfer of up to $1,992,000 from the anticipated surplus from the overall senators’ office budget funding envelope to cover the pressures of economic salary increases and payments associated with the retirement of senior Senate officers.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. senators: Agreed.
The Chair: The motion is agreed to. Thank you, Isabelle and Nathalie.
[English]
We are now at item 10, which is an information item. This week the only document sent for information purposes is the report from the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. It’s the biannual exceptions to the Senators’ Office Management Policy.
Any questions or comments on the report? I see none.
Now that all requests for exceptions are being presented directly to CIBA, there are only a few items that will be seen by CIBA steering, and that will be personal matters, health issues, and matters related to HR and personnel. The rest of the requests will come here. The report will still be provided on a biannual basis.
[Translation]
Under the heading “Other business,” are there any other matters you would like to discuss before the meeting is adjourned?
Senator Oudar: With the indulgence of colleagues, I would like to move a motion of congratulations and thanks to you for the work you have done on the committee.
Hon. senators: Congratulations!
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Oudar.
Senator Forest: Senator Oudar beat me to it. I wanted to say the same thing.
The Chair: I will save my thanks for the last item on the agenda, but thank you.
[English]
Before we conclude, I would like — and this is a privilege for me — to take a moment to recognize one of our colleagues, a stellar employee of the Senate, Gérald Lafrenière, as he prepares for his upcoming retirement. It’s a well-deserved retirement. Gérald, I know your family is extremely important to you and that you have given up a lot of things over the years.
I always get emotional with these things. On behalf of all of us, I want to express our heartfelt appreciation for your unwavering dedication and outstanding service to Parliament for over 30 years.
Over the course of your distinguished career as a committee clerk, a table officer and, ultimately, as Clerk of the Senate, Gérald has been a trusted advisor, mentor and leader. His strategic counsel has shaped countless decisions and strengthened the Senate’s institutional fabric. Whether offering guidance to the Speaker, to me, to leadership or to members of the CIBA steering committee and individual senators, your insights have always reflected discretion, professionalism and a profound understanding of parliamentary operations.
Gérald, your impartial leadership, your steady hand and your deep knowledge have greatly supported senators in fulfilling their responsibilities. The strong relationships you have built across the Senate community stands as a model of integrity, collaboration and service. You leave behind a standard of excellence that will continue to guide and inspire this institution long after you begin the next chapter of your life.
[Translation]
Whatever task is assigned to Gérald, whatever the mission, he has served the Senate for over 25 years with integrity and loyalty, as well as a remarkable ability to adapt to any circumstance.
His decision to remain in his position as Deputy Clerk to ensure a smooth transition during the new clerk’s first year in office demonstrates his exceptional commitment to the institution and the people who work here.
Gérald leads with integrity and brings people together. He is someone who finds solutions and always seeks the best way to serve the Senate.
[English]
While we are excited for you to embark on your new adventures, please know that you will be truly missed, both for your contributions and for the wonderful person you are.
[Translation]
I’m deeply honoured to pay you this tribute.
Congratulations on your retirement, Gérald, and thank you again from the bottom of my heart for your dedication, your sense of humour, your unwavering support, your patience and your legendary calm.
I just wanted to tell you how much I have appreciated working with you. You have been a role model for all of us.
Thank you very much, Gérald.
Gérald Lafrenière, Deputy Clerk, Legislative Services, Senate of Canada: You’ve touched on the key point, and that’s why I’ve decided to retire at this point, to be with my family. You often hear me talk about two of my daughters, and it’s time for them to truly become the priority in my life.
I’ve worked with senators throughout these years. I think of the chairs of the Committee on Internal Economy whom I have served and all the speakers of the Senate, especially in international work, when I worked in that area, and the close relationships I was able to establish there.
Thank you for your kind words. I will make sure that these words are conveyed to all my colleagues who have supported me over the years. I have been able to promote excellence and to be a good leader in the Senate thanks to the colleagues I have worked with over the years. They have stood with me in good times and in difficult times. This is an opportunity for me to publicly thank all my colleagues in the administration and all the staff in the senators’ offices with whom I have had very good relationships, for trying to find, as you said, “the right solutions for the Senate.”
Thank you, everyone.
Senator Henkel: I’ve not been here very long, but I must say that your efficiency and strong grasp of procedures, codes and policies clearly stand out. This has helped us enormously in our decision-making.
I would therefore like to make the following recommendation — I don’t know if it’s unusual or not, but I would like to make it anyway. I think it would be appropriate to consider awarding a medal or something else on behalf of all senators as a lasting reminder of exemplary service and the time spent in the Senate.
I would therefore like us to take note of this and think about it collectively. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Henkel.
This is my last meeting as chair of the Committee on Internal Economy.
[English]
I want to thank each of you for being good colleagues, having made my job much easier than it could have been and for having been supportive. It has been a privilege for the last three and a half years to be chair of CIBA, working with dedicated people. I want to thank the staff — every staff who supports us — whether they are working in senators’ offices or in the administration. They work with us, they support it and they make our lives much easier. They make the work that we do seamless. We are extremely well served by the Senate staff, and we are extremely well served also by our office employees. I will say that if the Senate works the way that it works, it is because we are well supported by the people who ensure that, on a daily basis, everything is working well and seamlessly for every one of us.
I invite every senator to go around this place when we’re sitting at the Senate. Go downstairs and see how many people are working cameras, see how many people are working at the consoles and see how many people are working in translation. See how many people there are, and some people you don’t even see. We have the stenographers and the Debates team who make sure our sittings work well. This is just a little part of what they do.
At the end of all this, I want to thank all of you. It has been an immense privilege, and this experience has been great. As I move on to other duties and other things that I will be doing, I give a heartfelt “thank you” to every single one of you, and I will always cherish the time I’ve spent on CIBA.
I will be attending but as ex officio, and I promise I will not intervene as much.
I would also like to welcome the person who will be replacing me for the next month, and then this committee will have the privilege of choosing their next chair: Senator Loffreda, who was here at some point as a member and then went on to another committee and is coming back to replace me.
You don’t have big shoes to fill; you have high-heeled shoes to fill. On that note, thank you very much, colleagues.
[Translation]
Senator Loffreda: Thank you, Senator Moncion.
[English]
It’s always very emotional when we leave a position, and we have two exceptional people changing positions. You’re going on to leadership of the ISG, and I’m sure we will continue to benefit from your exceptional advice and work, as you have done on this committee. One, I wanted to thank you for all you’re done on this committee. It hasn’t been an easy task, and it’s never an easy task, to chair such an important committee, but I also wanted to congratulate Gérald Lafrenière. It’s your last day today. We had a discussion, because we senators have all had last days wherever we came from before. I said to expect a phone call, because institutional memory is so important. It’s so difficult to replace someone of your stature, with the integrity you’ve shown, the wisdom you’ve brought to this place. So congratulations. Thank you very much. But I’m sure — and we’ve discussed it — you trained your people that will replace you exceptionally well. So we have confidence, like Senator Moncion said, in the people that make this institution. This is all our institution. It’s been around since 1867. It has been an extremely important institution that served Canadians extremely well and will continue do so.
I prepared a speech and changed it three or four times, so I will share it with you.
I thank you for your confidence that you placed in me. It is an honour to assume the chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration as per yesterday’s motion that was adopted, with leave of the Senate, until the first CIBA meeting in the new year and hopefully voted in to continue during that first meeting by this same committee.
So that’s clear. It only happens at noon, so thank you for the couple of hours. I’m getting a freebie here.
I won’t be chair until noon, but I’m looking forward to a hard month of catching up and getting to know all the files — I spoke to Pascale already — and continued collaboration from everybody and from around this table.
First of all, I want to express my sincere gratitude and appreciation to our outgoing chair and new ISG leader, Senator Moncion.
CIBA is, in many ways, the backbone of the Senate. It safeguards the credibility of our institutions, ensures the wise stewardship of public funds and supports the work that senators and staff do so we can serve Canadians effectively. I take this responsibility, like Senator Moncion has, very seriously.
My commitment is simple: to lead with integrity, transparency, collaboration and deep respect for the non-partisan nature of our work. I will rely on the expertise around this table, on the professionalism of our administration, as expressed by our outgoing chair, and on the constructive spirit that has long defined this committee.
Honourable senators, we will continue to strengthen governance and modernize our operations, and we need to modernize. The world is not static today. It’s very dynamic. It always needs modernization regardless of how well we’ve done. It’s always how well we can keep doing. I have always used that one line. And I will uphold the highest standards of accountability. Very important. Accountability is extremely important. Above all, we will ensure that Canadians have full confidence in how we manage the resources entrusted to us.
Thank you once again for your trust. I look forward to working closely with all of you in service to the Senate and to our great country.
I also want to take a moment — and this was my staff. I was going to stop there, but Éric has 20 years of experience, and I have a hundred years of experience in my office if we add Julie and myself. And he says, “You have got to say a little word on the holidays.” I said, “Oh, for sure.”
I also want to take a moment to wish all senators, staff and Senate employees a warm and joyful season, filled with peace, good health and moments of celebration. Thank you. Sometimes we don’t say “thank you” enough today. Thank you for your dedication and the hard work throughout the year, and thank you for all you’re going to do going forward too. I know that’s not in the script. May this well-deserved break offer rest, renewal and time with those who matter most, which should not include us senators. Make sure you get out of this place, have some fun and create some memories. I always say life is about creating memories. I look forward to seeing you all in the new year and senators in the chamber today. Thank you, colleagues.
For me, it’s a true honour and a privilege, and I’m looking forward to working with all of you.
My staff, my people have said, “What is the worst thing we can do,” and I said, “The worst thing you can do is not tell me I’m doing something wrong.” So be open. I’m always on. Feel free. I keep learning every day. Thank you once again to all of you and Senator Moncion for your confidence and your trust. Thank you.
Hon. Senators: Hear, hear.
[Translation]
The Chair: Thank you all. Happy holidays.
For the last time as chair of this committee, I declare the meeting adjourned.
(The committee adjourned.)